I was thinking about grabbing a copy but had a few questions.
First, I was thinking about using some of the social and religious ideas in a fantasy world. In short, I don't want modern day assumptions tacked into a strange medieval world. How well does the social and other power structures port over to "not earth."
Secondly, I am not a big fan of dungeon punk or superhero aesthetic. More inspired by actual historical armor and weapons. Does the book art have good examples of this? Chain mail, bucket helmets, etc.?
I don't have the book, though have watched flip-through reviews as well as heard Pundit speak about it in his videos.
From my understanding, Pundit has spoken a lot of how Lion & Dragon uses social status, and how it should be implemented in the game. He has a section on it, and in Lion & Dragon is very important. In L&D, there is one religion for the region, and I'm pretty sure he writes out all the ways religion weaves itself into everyday life (sometimes its hard to tell when he is speaking about the book contents and when he is just spitting knowledge, because I find Pundit to be very well educated on medieval subjects).
Also, regarding art, I believe Pundit uses a massive amount of public domain artwork to illustrate his books. Not sure on equipment, but the artwork itself depicts how actual armor would look in the medieval era, as well as giving it a grounded look. I believe the artist are late 1800's and before, and all artwork depicts the Medieval subjects.
Hopefully, Pundit will drop by and give you much better answers than I ever could.
Meanwhile, I just realized from you posting your topic, I've failed to snag a copy. So I'm off to do that...
UPDATE: While getting ready to purchase Lion & Dragon, I noticed in the previews that it looks like there is original artwork as well. If so, knowing Pundit, all will be appropriate to an authentic medieval period.
Cool. Sounds like it is probably what I would like. Thanks for the info!
What year is Lion & Dragon set in? I was watching the show Vikings and that is set in the 800s, so I'm guessing it is after that, as many of the characters in the show are pagan Vikings. The 100 years war I am guessing. I guess someone should write up stats for Joan of Arc. Does Ghengis Khan figure into this setting? That might be an interesting subject for an adventure.
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137786What year is Lion & Dragon set in? I was watching the show Vikings and that is set in the 800s, so I'm guessing it is after that, as many of the characters in the show are pagan Vikings. The 100 years war I am guessing. I guess someone should write up stats for Joan of Arc. Does Ghengis Khan figure into this setting? That might be an interesting subject for an adventure.
Wars of the Roses is the time period for the default setting, published separately as Dark Albion. Extrapolating to the Hundred Years' War period shouldn't be difficult.
Tangential question: of all of the pseudo-historical, alt-historical, and historic-authentic game materials I have seen, the Hundred Years' War is curiously avoided. I wonder why?
Quote from: RandyB;1137789Wars of the Roses is the time period for the default setting, published separately as Dark Albion. Extrapolating to the Hundred Years' War period shouldn't be difficult.
Tangential question: of all of the pseudo-historical, alt-historical, and historic-authentic game materials I have seen, the Hundred Years' War is curiously avoided. I wonder why?
The war pits the English against the French whereas the War of the Rose's pit the house of Lancaster against the house of York, in the later conflict, no one today really gives a damn, but their are still English and French around today, and this war is about the border between France and England, very political. It might upset a few people if someone says Normandy should be a part of England.
I also note that this time period is a decade or two before Columbus discovers America, if the DM is willing to go off the history books, he might allow the PCs to buy or build a ship and beat Columbus to this discovery, this would have enormous historical ramifications, but as this is an RPG game, the results of this historical change would unfold very slowly. England in the midst of a civil war beats the Spaniards by a couple decades. Making a colony profitable would be hard. Slay enough dragons and steal their treasure might be enough to transport colonists across the ocean, probably the fur trade with the indians would work best.
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137798The war pits the English against the French whereas the War of the Rose's pit the house of Lancaster against the house of York, in the later conflict, no one today really gives a damn, but their are still English and French around today, and this war is about the border between France and England, very political. It might upset a few people if someone says Normandy should be a part of England.
And yet TSR published supplements for AD&D 2e covering both the Crusades and the Reformation/Thirty Years War, both of which are far more controversial still today than the Hundred Years' War.
Warpiglet - awesome name - you will enjoy Lion & Dragon. You may also want to check out RPGPundit's Cults of Chaos and Dark Albion books as well.
Another RPG that might peak your interest is Sine Nomine's new Wolves of God. It's worth your time to check out the previews of all three on DriveThruRPG.
Also, if you like historical instead of fantasy arms, check out Palladium's quite ancient, but absolutely excellent series on arms, armor and gear of the past which is chock full of great illustrations of practically every ancient weapon known to historians.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/2627/Palladium-Books/subcategory/4816_5195/Weapon-Books
Quote from: Spinachcat;1137801Warpiglet - awesome name - you will enjoy Lion & Dragon. You may also want to check out RPGPundit's Cults of Chaos and Dark Albion books as well.
Another RPG that might peak your interest is Sine Nomine's new Wolves of God. It's worth your time to check out the previews of all three on DriveThruRPG.
Also, if you like historical instead of fantasy arms, check out Palladium's quite ancient, but absolutely excellent series on arms, armor and gear of the past which is chock full of great illustrations of practically every ancient weapon known to historians.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/2627/Palladium-Books/subcategory/4816_5195/Weapon-Books
Thanks much! Yeah I will check it out.
I like fantasy too but it's getting a little watered down. Looking for some more grit and grime.
Sort of tired of everyone being enlightened and knowing all the history and geography from early levels....the new zeitgeist is making it worse. Appreciate the recs. I will poke around and buy one initily
Quote from: RandyB;1137800And yet TSR published supplements for AD&D 2e covering both the Crusades and the Reformation/Thirty Years War, both of which are far more controversial still today than the Hundred Years' War.
TSR was not so much a corporation as a person back then, he didn't mind offending a few nitwits that wanted to be offended, I guess he didn't value the woke dollar as much as WotC does today. I wonder how much urban kids fighting their street wars in the hood ever took a break and started rolling Dice to play D&D?
Your welcome. Glad it helped.
On a related note, I also purchased a copy, so thanks for the topic. It reminded me I needed to purchase it as well.
Did you get the Lion and Dragon?
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137810TSR was not so much a corporation as a person back then, he didn't mind offending a few nitwits that wanted to be offended, I guess he didn't value the woke dollar as much as WotC does today. I wonder how much urban kids fighting their street wars in the hood ever took a break and started rolling Dice to play D&D?
That was in the 1990s, after "that person" had been ousted from the company while 1e was still in publication.
But keep displaying your ignorance. It helps others know where you need more information.
Quote from: RandyB;1137824That was in the 1990s, after "that person" had been ousted from the company while 1e was still in publication.
But keep displaying your ignorance. It helps others know where you need more information.
It was all a long time ago, there weren't as many hypersensitive individuals getting offended by everything that corporations listened to.
Yes. I purchased Lion & Dragon. I ordered Barrowmaze at the beginning of last month, which is due to arrive in a few days, so probably won't get L&D until early August.
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137826It was all a long time ago, there weren't as many hypersensitive individuals getting offended by everything that corporations listened to.
That I'll agree with. Much less claiming offense to try to ruin other people's fun. The root of it was around, but it wasn't in full cry.
Quote from: Eldritch_Knight;1137828Yes. I purchased Lion & Dragon. I ordered Barrowmaze at the beginning of last month, which is due to arrive in a few days, so probably won't get L&D until early August.
Very cool. I did the preview and it looks like a good style.
I am debating soft or hardcover
Quote from: Warpiglet;1137836Very cool. I did the preview and it looks like a good style.
I am debating soft or hardcover
That's no debate for me. Hardcover whenever available.
Could you use Lion and Dragon as a sourcebook for a 3.5 game suitable modified?
I got my copy recently, it really is a gold mine. Lots of it can be used for most any fantasy system, the section on medival crimes is fantastic
Okay, thanks I'll take a look at it next week.
Quote from: Warpiglet;1137836Very cool. I did the preview and it looks like a good style.
I am debating soft or hardcover
I did hardcover. The price isn't that much more, and hardcovers last longer and look so much better on the shelf. In fact, the price in general for Pundit's products are quite low compared to others. I'd recommend hardcover.
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137851Could you use Lion and Dragon as a sourcebook for a 3.5 game suitable modified?
I imagine it could work quite well. The magic system is different and uses spells based on actual medieval practices, so could be a good fix to the wizard/fighter power scale. If you end up doing so, let us know how it worked out. Not sure if Lion & Dragon has a full setting (besides Dark Albion) or just lots of explanation on how to run authentic medieval campaigns. Either way it should work well.
Is the quality of the Lion & Dragon hardcover the same on Lulu as it is on DriveThruRPG? Because it seems Lulu would have the lowest price for the HC when they run their various free shipping and discount coupons.
Quote from: Crusader X;1137875Is the quality of the Lion & Dragon hardcover the same on Lulu as it is on DriveThruRPG? Because it seems Lulu would have the lowest price for the HC when they run their various free shipping and discount coupons.
I got my copies of Dark Albion and Lion & Dragon through Lulu (Both HC) and they were excellent.
Quote from: Warpiglet;1137772I was thinking about grabbing a copy but had a few questions.
First, I was thinking about using some of the social and religious ideas in a fantasy world. In short, I don't want modern day assumptions tacked into a strange medieval world. How well does the social and other power structures port over to "not earth."
Secondly, I am not a big fan of dungeon punk or superhero aesthetic. More inspired by actual historical armor and weapons. Does the book art have good examples of this? Chain mail, bucket helmets, etc.?
1. The social order and power structures can easily port over to a not-earth setting, as long as you have a powerful monotheistic church, and a (slowly destabilizing) feudal system of aristocracy.
2. All the art in all the L&D/Dark Albion products are totally in keeping with the medieval-authentic aesthetic. No dungeon punk, no superheroes.
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137786What year is Lion & Dragon set in? I was watching the show Vikings and that is set in the 800s, so I'm guessing it is after that, as many of the characters in the show are pagan Vikings. The 100 years war I am guessing. I guess someone should write up stats for Joan of Arc. Does Ghengis Khan figure into this setting? That might be an interesting subject for an adventure.
The default year for Lion & Dragon is the 1450s, at the start of the War of the Roses. The Dark Albion timeline in the actual book covers from 1454-1485.
Quote from: Eldritch_Knight;1137811Your welcome. Glad it helped.
On a related note, I also purchased a copy, so thanks for the topic. It reminded me I needed to purchase it as well.
Thank you!
Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137851Could you use Lion and Dragon as a sourcebook for a 3.5 game suitable modified?
Yes, you could, though if what you're looking is more to run 3.5 and have a medieval authentic setting, what you want is Dark Albion.
Quote from: Slambo;1137855I got my copy recently, it really is a gold mine. Lots of it can be used for most any fantasy system, the section on medival crimes is fantastic
Thanks!
Quote from: Crusader X;1137875Is the quality of the Lion & Dragon hardcover the same on Lulu as it is on DriveThruRPG? Because it seems Lulu would have the lowest price for the HC when they run their various free shipping and discount coupons.
As far as I can tell, they're just as good.
I think it would work with my home campaign. There is a monotheistic religion--the "old gods" are now seen as vassals and saints. Heretics still see them as gods. But the overall arc is a strong monotheistic nation.
There is a rift too within. It's probably more adversarial than say orthodox and Byzantine vs. Catholicism.
Of course there are pagan analogues too. However, I think I can drop this in to give the world some grit and to emphasize the pervasiveness of "the faith." Thanks for the info.
Quote from: Warpiglet;1138044I think it would work with my home campaign. There is a monotheistic religion--the "old gods" are now seen as vassals and saints. Heretics still see them as gods. But the overall arc is a strong monotheistic nation.
There is a rift too within. It's probably more adversarial than say orthodox and Byzantine vs. Catholicism.
Of course there are pagan analogues too. However, I think I can drop this in to give the world some grit and to emphasize the pervasiveness of "the faith." Thanks for the info.
Plenty of pagan religions in other regions, the time is 1450 AD, just 42 years short of Columbus' famous voyage. What if the player characters get there first? I can think of a scenario. The Vikings colonized parts of the British Isles, at around 1000 AD a manuscript was left in a monestary, it recounts the saga of Leif Erikson's voyage to Vinland and there is an accompanying map showing the locations of Norway, Iceland. Greenland, and Vinland. In 1450 AD there are better ships than Leif Erikson had, supply the PCs with this information and through their adventuring they accumulate enough funding to buy a caravel ship, and then recruit a bunch of war refugees to settle a new land across the Atlantic. The Secret Kingdom. How long could they keep it a secret? For England it would be the east coast of North America.
No need to be a slave to history, the PCs could make their own history in this campaign world. Plenty of problems a long the way too. Since this is a fantasy setting, their could be sea monsters, there will be encounters with natives, and they have their own gods and beliefs. Probably the fur trade would be the best way to support this colony, bring trinkets to trade with the natives for furs, maybe settle on the island of Manhattan.
Very cool food for thought!
Quote from: RPGPundit;1138006As far as I can tell, they're just as good.
I have the hardcover of L&D from both Lulu and DTRPG, I'd agree they're about the same in quality. I was very impressed with the quality of a recent color hardcover I got from Lulu last week...far and away better than anything I got there previously. POD has gotten almost as good as large print runs.
Quote from: Brad;1138109I have the hardcover of L&D from both Lulu and DTRPG, I'd agree they're about the same in quality. I was very impressed with the quality of a recent color hardcover I got from Lulu last week...far and away better than anything I got there previously. POD has gotten almost as good as large print runs.
Some publishers I've dealt with seem to think that Lulu produces better books than DTRPG.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1138002The default year for Lion & Dragon is the 1450s, at the start of the War of the Roses. The Dark Albion timeline in the actual book covers from 1454-1485.
I've purchased Dark Albion, it's an interesting book, just skimmed through it, I see that magic is subdued, and monsters are rare, what about aquatic monsters, seems to me if they stay in the deep oceans, they wouldn't affect the campaign very much, unless a group of PCs were to finance an expedition across the Atlantic, "out Columbus" Columbus for instance, the oceans could hold a lot of monsters, the Kraken for example, there might be aquatic races such as the merfolk, they don't interact with humans much, but they could be out there, and of course the nastier aquatic races as well. The Merfolk in this setting would be descendants of the lost civilization of Atlantis, which I would put in the MidAtlantic ridge, out beyond the straights of Gibraltar or the Pillars of Hercules. The War of the Rose's will probably proceed whether the Americas are discovered early or not. The explorers would land in the northeast, in the Hudson Valley New York area or Cape Cod, of course the river would not be called the Hudson, Long Island will still be called Long Island, as that is a physical description. The Native Americans will have their own magic of course.
I'm stitching three campaign settings together: Dark Abion, a standard fantasy world in the Americas, and Traveller T20 RPG out in space, Atlantis has an underwater Stonehenge across the length of the Mid Atlantic Rift which serves as a gateway between worlds.
The Atlanteans constructed the gate as a means of escape, those that did not become merfolk escaped through that gates to another world, a world with two Suns, not all were able to make it, the gate only transports objects with intelligent creatures on them, such as wooden sailing ships with crews. There is a limit to their transportation capabilities, their energy banks ran low as people panicked as their continent began to sink, not all of them were able to make it, so the Atlanteans prayed to the God Poseidon, who then transformed them into merfolk, he also transformed the elves they were at war with into sea elves, this was about 10,000 years ago.
Sounds like an interesting campaign! Dark Albion is a setting book and has hardly any details on monsters, but the bestiary in Lion & Dragon includes fish-men, and the Medieval Bestiaries (in the RPGPundit Presents series) include some sea creatures.