And for my second post, I'd like to ask how can a GM limit the actions of gods within a fantasy setting? How is it done in your game? Do you have any specific rationale for limiting the excessive powers of gods on the mortal planes or do you just take it as given that gods won't be interfering too much with the players and events in your gameworld?
Quote from: Malygris;643151And for my second post, I'd like to ask how can a GM limit the actions of gods within a fantasy setting? How is it done in your game? Do you have any specific rationale for limiting the excessive powers of gods on the mortal planes or do you just take it as given that gods won't be interfering too much with the players and events in your gameworld?
In a lot of settings, the Gods will act as checks and balances against each other. Big Evil God can't run amok, because Big Good God and Lesser Good God #1 and #2 will smack him on the nose.
In my own setting, the world came into being as a collaborative effort after the Gods agreed that they had repeatedly cocked up every other world...the one religion in the world, dedicated to a non-interfering God, is named after a God that was accidentally killed in the ensuing squabble over how the world should be created.
Lately, I favor getting rid of gods altogether. Either just get rid the divide in magic or an animist approach with powers from spirits but no uber entities. You can have magic without assuming deities.
The reason why I prefer this is the meta effects of gods, it's too easy for religion to become a nose ring to pull the party where the DM wants them to go. If you're a cleric or paladin and your god says do X, what are you going to do? Then, for play reasons not related to the characters (what are the players going to do? dump the player with the cleric?), the whole group winds up on a religious quest that doesn't make sense for most of them. Beyond that, I've had enough of the major conflicts within a setting boiling down to wars or conflicts between gods. It's not a terrible route in itself but it's been done so many times that I'm tired of it. I'd rather that characters look at the powers shaping their world and decide for themselves what path to take.
I use a wide variety of supernatural entities from barely poltergeist to god, generally the gods don't come down from the mountain hurling fireballs because they just don't care. When you get to a godlike level of existence very little on one single earth matters; there are entire universes, planes and dimensions to occupy your attention. Even if the PCs attacked a god, they'd have to do it on another plane of existence, so that still wouldn't bring the wrath of god down on the world.
Minor powers maybe, it's a gradient, the more powerful an entity is the less likely it is to get involved with worldly affairs, except for some daemonic entities for whom this universe would be a step up from their current residence. Makes life a bit tricky for priests, since they have to depend on the favours of a whimsical and distant power while fighting very narrowly concentrated spiritual enemies trying to claw their way up.
Quote from: Malygris;643151And for my second post, I'd like to ask how can a GM limit the actions of gods within a fantasy setting? How is it done in your game? Do you have any specific rationale for limiting the excessive powers of gods on the mortal planes or do you just take it as given that gods won't be interfering too much with the players and events in your gameworld?
The main rationale for why the gods limit themselves in the Majestic Wilderlands is the same reason that at some point it better to let a child do things for themselves rather than the parent do it for them. The end result are more useful followers for what the god teaches.
However because the knowledge and viewpoint of the gods are so much vaster than mortals their actions are often inexplicable. Again much like the viewpoint of a 3 year old in regards to his much older parents.
Obviously as a referee I don't hold this advantage over my players so what I do is combine my interest in history and religion to come up with the actions of the gods. It not too far removed from the tricks that religious charlatans, cult leaders, and swindlers use to fool people about religion. For example working "prophecies" so that they are self fullfilling.
By and large the gods have chosen to act through faith rather than over actions. The exception being that clerics get spells from their service to their deity.
I'm reading Moorcock's Corum books at the moment and the main rationale in those is often that gods-being awesomely powerful- are forbidden to intervene in planes that are basically neutral or the "cosmic balance" between Law and Chaos is disrupted. That'd be good enough for me, but it's never come up in my games, where alignment is loosely washed over a general "sellotaped back together mildewed pages of paperback fantasy" vibe.
There's also the pseudo-Epicurean way to look at it which is very similar to posts above, whereby if the gods do exist and are as powerful as the old legends say, there's no way they'd bother getting their hands dirty by venturing out of their gardens of impossible beauty and everflowing nectar (or equivalent).
It is a crime against gaming that WotC won't reprint The Primal Order (http://www.amazon.com/Primal-Order-Peter-Adkison/dp/1880992000), although it doesn't seem too hard to get a reasonably-priced copy .
Quote from: estar;643183The main rationale for why the gods limit themselves in the Majestic Wilderlands is the same reason that at some point it better to let a child do things for themselves rather than the parent do it for them. The end result are more useful followers for what the god teaches.
However because the knowledge and viewpoint of the gods are so much vaster than mortals their actions are often inexplicable. Again much like the viewpoint of a 3 year old in regards to his much older parents.
By and large the gods have chosen to act through faith rather than over actions. The exception being that clerics get spells from their service to their deity.
Thanks to everyone for their replies. After thinking about this rationale it leaves a loophole in that the gods would move to stop their children doing something really dangerous. Like the equivalent of a kid running across the road when there is lots of traffic.
Quote from: daniel_ream;643189It is a crime against gaming that WotC won't reprint The Primal Order (http://www.amazon.com/Primal-Order-Peter-Adkison/dp/1880992000), although it doesn't seem too hard to get a reasonably-priced copy .
I'm wanting to limit these gods, not augment them!:eek:
Since I can't retroactively change the gods in my fantasy setting into animist concepts, I'm stuck with these deities. Gods that have their attentions on a changing multiversal battleground, would explain to some extent why prayers and petitions, even by clerics, are often unanswered. Something like Moorcock's Balance looks like a good rationale too for limiting omnipotence.
Quote from: Malygris;643202Thanks to everyone for their replies. After thinking about this rationale it leaves a loophole in that the gods would move to stop their children doing something really dangerous. Like the equivalent of a kid running across the road when there is lots of traffic.
How much of loophole depend on the metaphysical definition of "running across a road with a lot of traffic". It involved the act of destroying creation then probably yes. If it involves the genocide of a chosen culture maybe. If it involves a death of individual probably not.
The gods of the Majestic Wilderlands are caretakers appointed by the One to act as teachers to the Children Races (Men and Elves). In the Dawn Age they lived among the Children Races in the First City but this led to factionalism and the Uttermost War. After the Gods victory over the Demons, (gods, elves, and men who rebelled) they decided to withdraw and teach through faith and mystery rather than maintain a physical presence.
Yes this is inspired by Tolkien's Iluvatar, Valar, and the conflict with Melkor/Morgoth. But my "valar" are openly worshiped as gods, the Elves call them Lords, the Demon created all the other races from mutated version of men, there is no one bad guy like Morgoth, the Demon were imprisoned in the Abyss after the Uttermost War, and other differences.
My metaphysics have the following assumptions
1) The One is God omnipotent and omniscient
2) The One has not revealed himself to any of the Children Races.
3) The Lords are primarily teachers
4) The Lords are neither omnipotent and omniscient although fighting one or deceiving on is about as effective as a 3 year old dealing with a full grown adult. Simply put they are vastly more skilled and knowledgeable than the Children Races and
5) Some of the loyal Lords have been badly effected by the Uttermost War primarily manifesting as extremism or borderline insanity.
6) The Elves are immortal and their fate is tied to the existence of the Wilderlands. When they die they are resurrected and return although this process may take centuries.
7) The Elves understand the true nature of the Lords and cultures dominated by the Elves tend to honor the Lords rather than worship them.
8) Several cultures consider themselves a chosen people of a particular Lord.
9) The Elves have no clue why the Lords permit themselves to be worshiped and permit the Elves to tell the truth to allied cultures. Nowadays the Elves just shrug and say it probably something specific to humans that they don't understand.
There is more but the point is just to start with a couple of assumption about the nature of the divine in your campaign and reason everything else from those.
That's setting conceit. And really, the best answers come from exposure to various ideas. So lots of philo/theosophical reading along with other rpgs.
In Nomine SJG has its Game Master Guide discuss this through various real world religions and theosophies, as the prime conceit is a Levantine cosmology tied to the struggle of fallen angels against the basis of reality itself. Kinda hard to initially imagine how such a monotheistic basis could have such a healthily diverse array of presentations, but the book walks you through the many permutations very well. There remains reasons why God/s don't just clean up after everyone like a den mother, but you have to dig deep to provide those rationales.
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;643156In a lot of settings, the Gods will act as checks and balances against each other. Big Evil God can't run amok, because Big Good God and Lesser Good God #1 and #2 will smack him on the nose.
In my own setting, the world came into being as a collaborative effort after the Gods agreed that they had repeatedly cocked up every other world...the one religion in the world, dedicated to a non-interfering God, is named after a God that was accidentally killed in the ensuing squabble over how the world should be created.
This is what I do, assuming gods are important in the campaign.
A good deity can't appear and smite evil without an Evil deity earning a free pass to smite good.
Quote from: Malygris;643204I'm wanting to limit these gods, not augment them!:eek:
Then you didn't look at the system very closely. You want to limit gods personally interfering in the earthly plane, and that's what TPO does, by making the power of a god directly dependent on a scarce, difficult to acquire resource (primal energy) and giving gods many, many things to spend that primal energy on besides directly interfering with the mortal realm. It is much more efficient for gods in TPO to work through a hierarchy of servitors, both divine and mundane, to achieve their ends.
So you get active religions but less gods directly shit-disturbing.
I'm not entirely sure about the need for this thread. That's not a bitch so much as a mere observation. When I started playing D&D (and I silently thank the gods that this site is full of old fuckers that let me feel young), the cleric was just the cleric, the paladin was just the paladin. No one really asked who your god was, and most GMs (all of them in my case) never had a god show up, even in a dream, to order the party. No, our nemesis was the old bearded guy in the tavern that always had some fucked up shit he wanted us to do for him.
Thus its pretty easy to 'limit' the gods. Our characters, our PLAYERS, had no idea in those early days of the mid-eighties, if the Gods even had names, much less personalities or duties. The Cleric's power might as well have come from ground-fucking as prayer for all we cared, a though exacerbated by the presence of Druids who had nearly the same spell lists and without the religious trappings.
Now: Maybe some of that was merely childish thought rather than a 'state of the hobby', but if you want to limit the gods, maybe it helps to think like that. As I noted in another thread: the Cleric can be a simple button mash for a specific power, religion and divinity need not apply for it to fill its roll in the meta-game structure.
Yup, there's also nothing wrong with the setting conceit "Just because." (Or, the God/s is/are ineffable, to be polite.) The only real demand is that the GM be reasonably consistent and up front about this, especially to priest players.
Do be aware that the power of priest classes are often controlled by these setting tethers, so carte blanche tends to have unintended consequences.
I pay no mind to the subject.
Sure there's gods. Maybe they exists? There's extant petty gods that exist in the material world as well.
But such matters are not my concern.
Quote from: Opaopajr;643432Yup, there's also nothing wrong with the setting conceit "Just because." (Or, the God/s is/are ineffable, to be polite.) The only real demand is that the GM be reasonably consistent and up front about this, especially to priest players.
It's like magic in that way, the game or GM can say that your magical power is based on how often you wear purple shoes or drive a three wheeled wagon widdershins around the market square. Since it doesn't have to obey the laws of physics or indeed any internal logic, you can do what you like, once the players are reasonably aware of it.
Quote from: daniel_ream;643350Then you didn't look at the system very closely. So you get active religions but less gods directly shit-disturbing.
Criticism accepted.:o I will sit down and read my copy now, rather than let it gather dust on my bookshelf. :D
Quote from: Spike;643370I'm not entirely sure about the need for this thread.
Now: Maybe some of that was merely childish thought rather than a 'state of the hobby', but if you want to limit the gods, maybe it helps to think like that. As I noted in another thread: the Cleric can be a simple button mash for a specific power, religion and divinity need not apply for it to fill its roll in the meta-game structure.
Sure, you can just not have gods turn up or be a big part of your game if the players aren't fussed about such things. But my players like to ask questions about the game world, and a simple explanation for why the gods aren't showing their divine asses every day to aid their specific aims is something they are bothered about.
There are many ways that Gods can exist in a fantasy setting.
Runaround - Deities are present and active, running around, making things, blowing things up and generally terrorising mortals.
Olympus - Deities are present and occasionally come to the mortal world and interact with mortals. Demigods are active heroes and play parts in the world.
Asgard - Deities are present and very occasionally come to the mortal realm, but are more active in the supernatural realms. Demigods are rare and play little part in the mortal world.
Compromise - The Deities were once active in the world, but have returned to their sacred homes and can play no active role. However, Demigods are still present and can influence the world, until they become Compromised and leave the world.
Mythical - Deities only exist in fairy tales, myths and religious books. They play no active part in the world and have no way to prove their existence.
I am sure there are many other ways they can manifest, but can't think of them off the top of my head.
Now, as for Deities granting magic/Divine Assistance, it varies quite a lot.
In a Runaround setting, the Deities actually come and physically help their petitioners. They don't normally grant their worshippers magic, but can do under exceptional circumstances. This is a setting for the Deities themselves, rather than for mortals.
In an Olympus/Asgard setting, not restricted to the Greek/Germanic pantheons, the Deities grant magic to their worshippers, but occasionally come to answer petitioners, or send their representatives.
In a Compromise setting, the Deities routinely grant magic to their worshippers and act through special Heroes or cult champions.
In a Mythical setting, Deities may, or may not, grant magic to their worshippers.
So, what settings fit these categories?
Runaround: Exalted (I think), can't think of any other examples.
Olympus: Homeric Greece, Hittites, Ancient Egypt, Heroic Ireland
Asgard: Heroic Germanic/Norse, Heroic Wales, Age of the Saints
Compromise: Glorantha, Medieval Earth, Most D&D Settings
Mythical: Post-Renaissance Earth, SciFi Settings
Quote from: Malygris;643516Sure, you can just not have gods turn up or be a big part of your game if the players aren't fussed about such things. But my players like to ask questions about the game world, and a simple explanation for why the gods aren't showing their divine asses every day to aid their specific aims is something they are bothered about.
It bothers people in the real world as well. No need to explain everything anyways.
Great stuff there, soltakss! Very useful tool for those pre-campaign brainstorms where the group decides on the nature of the gods on the setting.
Thanks. ;)
Quote from: daniel_ream;643189It is a crime against gaming that WotC won't reprint The Primal Order (http://www.amazon.com/Primal-Order-Peter-Adkison/dp/1880992000), although it doesn't seem too hard to get a reasonably-priced copy .
It's (also) a crime against gaming that the other books teased therein —
The Underworld Order, and so forth — were never written.
Fucking lawsuits. Fucking
Magic.
In Albion, the gods are naturally distant, and only tend to act through their intermediaries (clerics in the case of Law, elemental spirits in the case of Neutrality, and sorcerers/mutants/monstrosities in the case of Chaos).
In Arrows of Indra, the gods are very active; I didn't feel any need to limit them in particular, except that they are bound to their own set of universal rules or Dharma; Gods in Jagat are NOT the most powerful things around, they are subject to karma and to dharma just as all other beings are.
In my DCC campaign, there's only one God (called G.O.D.) and he's limited on account of being "insane" (actually, malfunctioning).
RPGPundit
I like invasive and troublesome gods which is one of the big sells of Mazes & Minotaurs because Greek gods are teenagers run amok. They are powerful, petty, but can be tricked.
In my OD&D campaign, I went a different path and only have 3 gods (goddess of the Empire, god of Wolf and Man, god of secrets) and they don't have much, if any, interaction with each other.
The Gemini Queen, goddess of the Empire, only cares about the human empires. She may take different forms in other human nations, or they may simply be worshiping her wrong. She is a chatty goddess, most likely to be everwatchful and communicative with her clerics. She will invade dreams and often advise/chastise her priests.
The White Wolf only cares about the hunt, the savagery of his acolytes and the reincarnation cycle. He's not a talker, but may communicate using nature or maybe that's just his clerics mistaking a cold wind for a message. His clerics evangelize heavily, promising followers they will be reincarnated as wolves and thus live forever being born as wolf and man.
The Iron Cobra, the god of secrets known by many names, revels in things being hidden and things being found and aids those who seek to do both. The cobra doesn't care much for worship, clerics aren't encouraged to set up temples, but instead make many hidden shrines. They also don't evangelize, unlike the other clerics because the cobra doesn't need a flock. The cobra isn't a talker either, but may send puzzling symbols as clues in dreams to its clerics. Or was it just a dream?
Opposing the world are demons who are legion, but none have attained the true power of a god and only the Imperial Goddess really cares about them because they pose a threat to humanity and her cult. However, you can summon demons and they can give you goodies which led to the collapse of one human empire.
My elves don't have gods, for they believe themselves to be demigods themselves for they are immortal. My dwarves venerate their ancestors, empowering their future with the strength of their past.