Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 02, 2021, 09:51:28 AM
>small arms
>chain gun
>heavy machine gun

Yeah, I'm not sure that works.

Fair enough - I just added "Small Arms" to my post - it's not in the system. In-game the separation is only due to the weapons which can scale up/down (so a mecha wielding a chain gun would work the same as infantry - just with higher damage scale) versus infantry only weapons.

There's no skills for either. Combat rolls are entirely Attribute(s) + weapon dice. So anyone can pick up any weapon, though with too low of a Brawn score they'll take penalties.

Quote from: 3catcircus on November 01, 2021, 12:00:23 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 21, 2021, 11:55:39 AM
@Erik Diaz & Chris24601

Modifiers to hit : Untrained, Trained, Expert, range & RoF

Mofifiers to range: Calliber (not getting into 100's of guns/ammo) ex. Small, Medium, Large

Modifiers to Dmg: RoF, Calliber, Training & Range

Small guns are everything from .22 to .25, Medium .32 to .38s, Large .45 and up. Thinking of adding a "Magnum" type of gun, but it needs to be available to several callibers, so it would increase the price of the gun and ammo and the Dmg it does.

Might include "stingy" guns, this would be your derringer type guns with one or two shots before reloading.

Already did the research for the real range of all the firearms and bows, it's way larger than what you usually find on games that have modern firearms. What you usually find is ~1/10th of the real range and some times less than that (WTAFF!?).

The gun porn will maybe be an apendix.

This.  I would urge anyone who wants to use firearms in their games to go spend some time looking through Twilight:2000 forums. 

I've got the first 3 versions of the game and prefer the Twilight:2013 rules because they are "realistic" without being unwieldy (one of the designers shared the firearms building rules which are based on actual ballistics calculations - give me any firearm from a little pocket .25 to a .50 anti-material rifle and I can stat it up in the TW:2013 rules.  *Most* firearms have nearly the same stats if they have similar bullet mass and muzzle velocity - to the point that a generic "9mm handgun" and a "Glock 17L" and a "Browning HP-35" are going to essentially have the same stats. 

I also recommend their combat and damage rules.  No "100% effective anywhere from 100 down to 1 hp and then suddenly you shut down at 0 hp." Wound levels/locations that affect mental/physical abilities, shock, death due to blood loss are all in there and it's not unwieldy.

Hunting down the game rules, thanks.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on October 31, 2021, 07:54:26 PM
Bleeding I consider a bit of a non-issue. Yes, bleeding out is the leading cause of death both in modern combats and accidents. But it's not like the guy is toodling around happily while blood's gushing out of him and then suddenly falls over dead. If the injury is serious enough that he might bleed out - he falls over and is no longer taking part in proceedings.

That's not actually true from my admittedly limited reading on the topic.  (And I I'll admit I don't care enough to do further research)  There are plenty of true life stories about someone fighting on after being wounded then dying later of blood loss.  If you're trying to emulate fiction, they they're all over the place.  It can simplify play a lot though to assume that when you're wounded you're down and then sort out dead or not later, though, so it's an okay approach.  It's actually pretty much what I chose to do for my game.

Quote from: Mishihari on November 02, 2021, 02:49:50 PM

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on October 31, 2021, 07:54:26 PM
Bleeding I consider a bit of a non-issue. Yes, bleeding out is the leading cause of death both in modern combats and accidents. But it's not like the guy is toodling around happily while blood's gushing out of him and then suddenly falls over dead. If the injury is serious enough that he might bleed out - he falls over and is no longer taking part in proceedings.

That's not actually true from my admittedly limited reading on the topic.  (And I I'll admit I don't care enough to do further research)  There are plenty of true life stories about someone fighting on after being wounded then dying later of blood loss.  If you're trying to emulate fiction, they they're all over the place.  It can simplify play a lot though to assume that when you're wounded you're down and then sort out dead or not later, though, so it's an okay approach.  It's actually pretty much what I chose to do for my game.

Actually, that might make for an interesting mechanic. The tendency for adrenaline to temporarily negate wound effects until the fight ends. Wouldn't work for systems without wound penalties or some such, but I guess you could simulate it in a hit point system with temporary HP that vanish at the end of the fight (recall how the 3E barbarian ran the risk of keeling over after combat ended).

Quote from: Mishihari on November 02, 2021, 02:49:50 PMThere are plenty of true life stories about someone fighting on after being wounded then dying later of blood loss.  If you're trying to emulate fiction, they they're all over the place. 

If you're trying to emulate fiction, do whatever the fuck you want. There are a thousand different fictions. If you're trying to emulate reality, then you just have them make a roll, and if they get a critical success, they can ignore the wound and carry on. But most of the time they're just going to fall over.

However, if you want to argue that in reality some guy can get shot in the head, be gushing blood and fight on, then to be fair you have to balance that with the reality that some other guy can get shot in the leg and require 6 months of physiotherapy to be able to walk again, and he'll end up on a disability pension. Careful with that "but in reality" argument, you might not end up where you'd like to.

What we actually do in practice is pick and choose from reality and fiction. Most times the "realistic" game isn't really, it's just realistic-themed. It's reasonable.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 02, 2021, 11:07:41 AM

Quote from: 3catcircus on November 01, 2021, 12:00:23 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 21, 2021, 11:55:39 AM
@Erik Diaz & Chris24601

Modifiers to hit : Untrained, Trained, Expert, range & RoF

Mofifiers to range: Calliber (not getting into 100's of guns/ammo) ex. Small, Medium, Large

Modifiers to Dmg: RoF, Calliber, Training & Range

Small guns are everything from .22 to .25, Medium .32 to .38s, Large .45 and up. Thinking of adding a "Magnum" type of gun, but it needs to be available to several callibers, so it would increase the price of the gun and ammo and the Dmg it does.

Might include "stingy" guns, this would be your derringer type guns with one or two shots before reloading.

Already did the research for the real range of all the firearms and bows, it's way larger than what you usually find on games that have modern firearms. What you usually find is ~1/10th of the real range and some times less than that (WTAFF!?).

The gun porn will maybe be an apendix.

This.  I would urge anyone who wants to use firearms in their games to go spend some time looking through Twilight:2000 forums. 

I've got the first 3 versions of the game and prefer the Twilight:2013 rules because they are "realistic" without being unwieldy (one of the designers shared the firearms building rules which are based on actual ballistics calculations - give me any firearm from a little pocket .25 to a .50 anti-material rifle and I can stat it up in the TW:2013 rules.  *Most* firearms have nearly the same stats if they have similar bullet mass and muzzle velocity - to the point that a generic "9mm handgun" and a "Glock 17L" and a "Browning HP-35" are going to essentially have the same stats. 

I also recommend their combat and damage rules.  No "100% effective anywhere from 100 down to 1 hp and then suddenly you shut down at 0 hp." Wound levels/locations that affect mental/physical abilities, shock, death due to blood loss are all in there and it's not unwieldy.

Hunting down the game rules, thanks.

Yep.  Different rules than d20/D&D, but they can be adapted.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/58794

Quote from: 3catcircus on November 02, 2021, 06:13:51 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 02, 2021, 11:07:41 AM

Quote from: 3catcircus on November 01, 2021, 12:00:23 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 21, 2021, 11:55:39 AM
@Erik Diaz & Chris24601

Modifiers to hit : Untrained, Trained, Expert, range & RoF

Mofifiers to range: Calliber (not getting into 100's of guns/ammo) ex. Small, Medium, Large

Modifiers to Dmg: RoF, Calliber, Training & Range

Small guns are everything from .22 to .25, Medium .32 to .38s, Large .45 and up. Thinking of adding a "Magnum" type of gun, but it needs to be available to several callibers, so it would increase the price of the gun and ammo and the Dmg it does.

Might include "stingy" guns, this would be your derringer type guns with one or two shots before reloading.

Already did the research for the real range of all the firearms and bows, it's way larger than what you usually find on games that have modern firearms. What you usually find is ~1/10th of the real range and some times less than that (WTAFF!?).

The gun porn will maybe be an apendix.

This.  I would urge anyone who wants to use firearms in their games to go spend some time looking through Twilight:2000 forums. 

I've got the first 3 versions of the game and prefer the Twilight:2013 rules because they are "realistic" without being unwieldy (one of the designers shared the firearms building rules which are based on actual ballistics calculations - give me any firearm from a little pocket .25 to a .50 anti-material rifle and I can stat it up in the TW:2013 rules.  *Most* firearms have nearly the same stats if they have similar bullet mass and muzzle velocity - to the point that a generic "9mm handgun" and a "Glock 17L" and a "Browning HP-35" are going to essentially have the same stats. 

I also recommend their combat and damage rules.  No "100% effective anywhere from 100 down to 1 hp and then suddenly you shut down at 0 hp." Wound levels/locations that affect mental/physical abilities, shock, death due to blood loss are all in there and it's not unwieldy.

Hunting down the game rules, thanks.

Yep.  Different rules than d20/D&D, but they can be adapted.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/58794

When you find a better hammer you switch hammers.

Bolting on mechanics is the least of my problems, don't get me started trying to populate, Venus, Mars, Mercury?, The Moon and the jovian moons...

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on November 02, 2021, 06:06:11 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on November 02, 2021, 02:49:50 PMThere are plenty of true life stories about someone fighting on after being wounded then dying later of blood loss.  If you're trying to emulate fiction, they they're all over the place. 

If you're trying to emulate fiction, do whatever the fuck you want. There are a thousand different fictions. If you're trying to emulate reality, then you just have them make a roll, and if they get a critical success, they can ignore the wound and carry on. But most of the time they're just going to fall over.

However, if you want to argue that in reality some guy can get shot in the head, be gushing blood and fight on, then to be fair you have to balance that with the reality that some other guy can get shot in the leg and require 6 months of physiotherapy to be able to walk again, and he'll end up on a disability pension. Careful with that "but in reality" argument, you might not end up where you'd like to.

What we actually do in practice is pick and choose from reality and fiction. Most times the "realistic" game isn't really, it's just realistic-themed. It's reasonable.

To be fair, a lot of the time (fatal head or chest shot or severed arteries aside), cops and soldiers who get shot with a non-fatal wound fall over incapacitated because that's what they see on tv and that is what they expect, which more often than not leads to their dying when they would have survived had they continued to fight.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 02, 2021, 06:16:11 PM

Quote from: 3catcircus on November 02, 2021, 06:13:51 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 02, 2021, 11:07:41 AM

Quote from: 3catcircus on November 01, 2021, 12:00:23 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 21, 2021, 11:55:39 AM
@Erik Diaz & Chris24601

Modifiers to hit : Untrained, Trained, Expert, range & RoF

Mofifiers to range: Calliber (not getting into 100's of guns/ammo) ex. Small, Medium, Large

Modifiers to Dmg: RoF, Calliber, Training & Range

Small guns are everything from .22 to .25, Medium .32 to .38s, Large .45 and up. Thinking of adding a "Magnum" type of gun, but it needs to be available to several callibers, so it would increase the price of the gun and ammo and the Dmg it does.

Might include "stingy" guns, this would be your derringer type guns with one or two shots before reloading.

Already did the research for the real range of all the firearms and bows, it's way larger than what you usually find on games that have modern firearms. What you usually find is ~1/10th of the real range and some times less than that (WTAFF!?).

The gun porn will maybe be an apendix.

This.  I would urge anyone who wants to use firearms in their games to go spend some time looking through Twilight:2000 forums. 

I've got the first 3 versions of the game and prefer the Twilight:2013 rules because they are "realistic" without being unwieldy (one of the designers shared the firearms building rules which are based on actual ballistics calculations - give me any firearm from a little pocket .25 to a .50 anti-material rifle and I can stat it up in the TW:2013 rules.  *Most* firearms have nearly the same stats if they have similar bullet mass and muzzle velocity - to the point that a generic "9mm handgun" and a "Glock 17L" and a "Browning HP-35" are going to essentially have the same stats. 

I also recommend their combat and damage rules.  No "100% effective anywhere from 100 down to 1 hp and then suddenly you shut down at 0 hp." Wound levels/locations that affect mental/physical abilities, shock, death due to blood loss are all in there and it's not unwieldy.

Hunting down the game rules, thanks.

Yep.  Different rules than d20/D&D, but they can be adapted.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/58794

When you find a better hammer you switch hammers.

Bolting on mechanics is the least of my problems, don't get me started trying to populate, Venus, Mars, Mercury?, The Moon and the jovian moons...

Stage I rules for the game are free.

Quote from: 3catcircus on November 02, 2021, 06:19:47 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 02, 2021, 06:16:11 PM

Quote from: 3catcircus on November 02, 2021, 06:13:51 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 02, 2021, 11:07:41 AM

Quote from: 3catcircus on November 01, 2021, 12:00:23 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 21, 2021, 11:55:39 AM
@Erik Diaz & Chris24601

Modifiers to hit : Untrained, Trained, Expert, range & RoF

Mofifiers to range: Calliber (not getting into 100's of guns/ammo) ex. Small, Medium, Large

Modifiers to Dmg: RoF, Calliber, Training & Range

Small guns are everything from .22 to .25, Medium .32 to .38s, Large .45 and up. Thinking of adding a "Magnum" type of gun, but it needs to be available to several callibers, so it would increase the price of the gun and ammo and the Dmg it does.

Might include "stingy" guns, this would be your derringer type guns with one or two shots before reloading.

Already did the research for the real range of all the firearms and bows, it's way larger than what you usually find on games that have modern firearms. What you usually find is ~1/10th of the real range and some times less than that (WTAFF!?).

The gun porn will maybe be an apendix.

This.  I would urge anyone who wants to use firearms in their games to go spend some time looking through Twilight:2000 forums. 

I've got the first 3 versions of the game and prefer the Twilight:2013 rules because they are "realistic" without being unwieldy (one of the designers shared the firearms building rules which are based on actual ballistics calculations - give me any firearm from a little pocket .25 to a .50 anti-material rifle and I can stat it up in the TW:2013 rules.  *Most* firearms have nearly the same stats if they have similar bullet mass and muzzle velocity - to the point that a generic "9mm handgun" and a "Glock 17L" and a "Browning HP-35" are going to essentially have the same stats. 

I also recommend their combat and damage rules.  No "100% effective anywhere from 100 down to 1 hp and then suddenly you shut down at 0 hp." Wound levels/locations that affect mental/physical abilities, shock, death due to blood loss are all in there and it's not unwieldy.

Hunting down the game rules, thanks.

Yep.  Different rules than d20/D&D, but they can be adapted.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/58794

When you find a better hammer you switch hammers.

Bolting on mechanics is the least of my problems, don't get me started trying to populate, Venus, Mars, Mercury?, The Moon and the jovian moons...

Stage I rules for the game are free.

Right on! Does that include the gun rules?

Quote from: 3catcircus on November 02, 2021, 06:17:25 PMa lot of the time (fatal head or chest shot or severed arteries aside), cops and soldiers who get shot with a non-fatal wound fall over incapacitated because that's what they see on tv and that is what they expect

"You too can ignore bullet wounds with the power of positive thinking!"

Um, no.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on November 02, 2021, 06:57:24 PM

Quote from: 3catcircus on November 02, 2021, 06:17:25 PMa lot of the time (fatal head or chest shot or severed arteries aside), cops and soldiers who get shot with a non-fatal wound fall over incapacitated because that's what they see on tv and that is what they expect

"You too can ignore bullet wounds with the power of positive thinking!"

Um, no.

I think that was an actual power in Scion. There was definitely one where you couldn't be hurt by an attacker you were unaware of because, to you, they effectively didn't exist until you acknowledged them.

No reports on whether the accused is a large Irish man.

No firearms, sorry. But hitting someone in the head with a cinder block and then stabbing them repeatedly will do the job.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/man-killed-his-daughter-s-boyfriend-selling-her-sex-trafficking-n1282968

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on November 02, 2021, 06:57:24 PM

Quote from: 3catcircus on November 02, 2021, 06:17:25 PMa lot of the time (fatal head or chest shot or severed arteries aside), cops and soldiers who get shot with a non-fatal wound fall over incapacitated because that's what they see on tv and that is what they expect

"You too can ignore bullet wounds with the power of positive thinking!"

Um, no.

People have been known to survive ridiculous damage. Granted, that's with top medical aid given within the hour (hence the 'golden hour').

Yes. Not with positive thinking - with well-trained and well-equipped professionals. And they weren't running and gunning while in the hospital waiting room.