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Hello and thank you for reading!

For some time now, I wanted to open a thread here to post questions regarding this game: Lejendary Adventures.

I know is not a popular game (or not many people plays it). But this forum might be the right place to preserve the knowledge (from Bluspnge and Lunamancer, among others) and have the closest thing to a Q&A.

So, let's begin!

Q: Armor and Activations
Armor, and activations that provide armor, usually give a speed penalty.  According to the player's handbook p182 and the character sheet on page 203, the AEP (Activation Energy Points) are calculated by the unmodified Speed.

Now, in the Essential book (p 67) "the Speed loss rating is the reduction from the Avatar's speed Base Rating for purposes of movement and action while wearing the armor." Does this mean that the extraordinary abilities like Theurgy or Enchantments will suffer a penalty when using armor?


Thanks again,

Quote from: Rithuan;1051065Hello and thank you for reading!

For some time now, I wanted to open a thread here to post questions regarding this game: Lejendary Adventures.

I know is not a popular game (or not many people plays it). But this forum might be the right place to preserve the knowledge (from Bluspnge and Lunamancer, among others) and have the closest thing to a Q&A.

So, let's begin!.....

Thanks again,

Sounds cool but how about someone begin by telling the rest of us a brief synopsis of the game.

I never heard of if. Is it SciFi? Fantasy? What?

Rules light (guessing not) or loads of crunch?

You went from zero to a hundred there and the left the rest of gawkers in the dust.

Oh, by all means.
Lejendary Adventures (LA) was the last game that Gary Gygax wrote with Trigee Enterprise on 1999 and was later republished by Troll Lords on 2005. The game is a fantasy RPG, rules-light by design. In a few words, LA is:
- a skill based game with a Percentile dice.
- each skill is a skill-bundle, so is not rare to see synergy or overlapping among them
- it has three core attributes that play more the role of HP, MP and save rolls
- Does not have classes, but the game has Orders. This play the role of membership for the great archetypes in-game (Mages, Knights, Thieves, etc.) Orders as a social status grant equipment and skill bonus.


It has soo many spells, optional rules and a convoluted character generation that I would challenge the concept of how rules light is. It's rules light for the players but requires more effort for the GM

Is it not a reworking of his Dangerous Journeys Mythus game that TSR sued GDW to have shut down? I have all the DJ books and loved the art, professions, and magic, but his reinvention of every core term was painful. Also, math. There was averaging and dividing and whatnot. Character creation could take hours. But the game itself was okay after the initial work was done. The magic spells and different types of magic was really inspiring, but the rest was too much work for too little payoff. I wonder if LJ fixes that.

Be sure to check the Lejendary Adventures section over on Dragonsfoot  Rithuan.  Gygax provided a fair amount of insight and such on the game there, with helpful advice on a few areas. Not trying to dissuade you from writing about it here, of course.
Lejendary Adventures at Dragonsfoot (https://www.dragonsfoot.org/la/index.shtml)

Oh yes, most of my questions were answered in Dragonsfoot and En. There is a lot of information, but unfortunately, after Gary's passing, there is no such a thing as a compressive FAQ.

I know that lejendarylands.org used to have discussions of the game, but I can't access the forum through the Wayback machine

The errata discussing changes to non-ordered avatars is useful over on at that link. It helps make the orders less essential, by equalizing non-ordered somewhat.

As to your first question, energy is found by the unmodified speed.  Armor modifies speed for movement and actions.  So, energy is the same armor or no.

Quote from: Kuroth;1051182As to your first question, energy is found by the unmodified speed.  Armor modifies speed for movement and actions.  So, energy is the same armor or no.

Thanks for the reply. So for the energy or AEP, I'm confident that it uses unmodified speed. My question aims to the actions: If actions depending on speed are modified, is spellcasting (like Theurgy or Enchantments) modified?

Thanks!

Energy available as a product of unmodified speed as a constant is the only by the book rule, as far I ever could tell.  I think Gygax meant that the ref (Lejendary Master) could apply a modifier to some aspect of extraordinary abilities, on a case-by-case basis.  So, sometimes a ref may possibly apply a greater time cost or energy cost to activate an extraordinary ability, for example. A ref could also modify how the extraordinary ability manifests itself specific to the encounter particulars.   Where the book discuses general actions, activation of extraordinary abilities is listed in context of time required in a count, which might make a ref lean toward a time cost penalty for wearing armor, if they wanted to impose such a rule.

You will encounter a fair number of questions of this type in the game, where the game attempts to be exact and vague at the same time. Given what Gygax was trying to achieve with Lejendary Adventures, the ruling that you the Lejendary Master choose to apply is always going to be the correct one.  I prefer making modifications specific to the extraordinary ability, rather than a standard rule.

It's really just a straight-up percentile based game, with a lot of ref on the spot adjudication.  I often think that the game could have been a three page game, minus the spell and monster listings.  I would drop the orders altogether, along with tablets, of course.  Just let players assign percentiles for their abilities within a range too, without the character creation in the book.  After all, the monster and spell descriptions are the neat part of the game.

Edit: If you have a continued interest in Lejendary Rithuan, I have a draft copy of AsteRogues that might help with some of your questions.  It was available for anyone to download at one of those sites for Lejendary back in the day.  I don't recall which one.   AsteRogues was Gygax's science fantasy game using the system in Lejendary Adventures.  Being a playtest draft, it is just a Word document.  So, if you would like to have it to help with any question you may have about Lejendary, just send a private message where I may send it to you.

Took me a while to get here and it was already on the second page.  ::sigh:: Such is the lot for LA fans.  On to the questions!

Quote from: Rithuan;1051065Now, in the Essential book (p 67) "the Speed loss rating is the reduction from the Avatar's speed Base Rating for purposes of movement and action while wearing the armor." Does this mean that the extraordinary abilities like Theurgy or Enchantments will suffer a penalty when using armor?

As Kuroth pointed out, LA is full of little rules inconsistencies that will drive you batty if you aren't careful.  This LOOKS like one, but it really isn't.

Activation Energy Points (AEP) are generated by multiplying your Speed by 4, IIRC.  That's it.  No modifier.

The Speed Penalty from armor has more to do with Initiative (there are something like 3 different methods, but IIRC, the core is d10+modified speed) and Avoidance Rolls (essentially saving throws). Giant boulder about to fall on you?  Roll some version of your modified Speed (x4, x3, x2, or x1).

There are probably a few other uses for the modified Speed BR, but I believe those are the two biggies.

Tom

OK, I haven't seen the game, so let me ask something:).
You mentioned skills are broad, so there's overlap and synergy. I can imagine what the overlap would look like. What does the synergy look like;)?

Quote from: Kuroth;1051937Edit: If you have a continued interest in Lejendary Rithuan, I have a draft copy of AsteRogues that might help with some of your questions.  It was available for anyone to download at one of those sites for Lejendary back in the day.  I don't recall which one.   AsteRogues was Gygax's science fantasy game using the system in Lejendary Adventures.  Being a playtest draft, it is just a Word document.  So, if you would like to have it to help with any question you may have about Lejendary, just send a private message where I may send it to you.

Thanks for your post, Kuroth. It was illuminating. Yes, I think I follow your post regarding Lejendary AsteRogues in this forum (actually, It was the reason I created an account, some years ago). I follow your trail to the 2.1 version of the system. Do you think it provides additional insight into the original LA rules?

Quote from: Blusponge;1052670As Kuroth pointed out, LA is full of little rules inconsistencies that will drive you batty if you aren't careful.  

HAhaha, that was awesome. Thanks and welcome Blusponge!!

Quote from: Blusponge;1052670The Speed Penalty from armor has more to do with Initiative (there are something like 3 different methods, but IIRC, the core is d10+modified speed) and Avoidance Rolls (essentially saving throws). Giant boulder about to fall on you?  Roll some version of your modified Speed (x4, x3, x2, or x1).

There are probably a few other uses for the modified Speed BR, but I believe those are the two biggies.

Oh, I wasn't aware that the Avoidance Rolls are based on modified speed. You're right. It's on p180 of the LR4AP. Thank you!

@AsenRG: The Synergy, in this case, is very straightforward. Some skills will explicitly mention that they create an additional benefit for other skills, damage, health or Energy points. There is no interpretation or ruling about it.

Quote from: AsenRG;1052676What does the synergy look like;)?

So two very obvious examples baked right into the rules would be Weapons and Archery, and Ranging and Rustic.

Basically how synergy works in LA is, when circumstances dictate that two Abilities the avatar possesses applies to a task, the GM may permit 10% of one of them to apply to the other for purposes of the roll. So let's say you are trying to arrange an ambush in the dark streets of a urban city. This is normally the purview of Tricks, but if the avatar also possesses the Urbane ability (essentially Streetwise), the GM might allow her to apply 10% of the avatar's Urbane Rank to her Tricks Ability for setting the ambush.  You might grant more synergy than that, but 10% is usually an easy figure to apply on the fly.

Tom

Quote from: Rithuan;1052695Thanks for your post, Kuroth. It was illuminating. Yes, I think I follow your post regarding Lejendary AsteRogues in this forum (actually, It was the reason I created an account, some years ago). I follow your trail to the 2.1 version of the system. Do you think it provides additional insight into the original LA rules?

I found that he reworded some areas of the Astrerouges that can help make a decision on how to land on a ruling in Lejendary. It is also interesting to see how he chose to adapt the game to a different setting.  I had a campaign in Conan's Hyboria using Lejendary.  So, I wanted to see how he adjusted Lejendary, even though it was for science fantasy.  

One of the things I found helpful for the game in general was notice that all of those special rulings in the Lejendary Master's Guide have a commonality in the modifying percentages applied.  They also help relate at what incidence modifiers may be applied to the various activies that characters get up to in game.  They act as examples for such rulings on the spot in game better than a bunch of rules to remember or have a bunch of notes.  

The game is sort of like Original D&D in that everyone ends up running it a bit differently, because of its very nature, and that is ok.

I found your explanations interesting too Blusponge!

Forgive the lateness of my reply. I don't check this site regularly anymore. I found this because once or twice a year I do a google search on Lejendary Adventure.

Here's the best way I know how to explain LA.

Skip the players book (Lejendary Rules for All Players, aka LR4AP) and go straight to the monster book (Beasts of Lejend, aka BoL).

Go back to basics. You have a table top and a bunch of guys are going to fight. The very first thing you need to know is how much you can move your guy so that your opponent is within your attack range or weapon's reach. Once within range, the second thing you need to know is what is your probability of hitting. Then third thing you need to know is how many hits it takes to put your opponent down.

And so to represent these three primordial needs of an action-oriented role-playing game, Lejendary Adventure skips all the hoopla and gimmicks and fanfare and simply gives you what you need. Health, Precision, and Speed. The monsters are then rounded out with two more stats, Attack and Defense, that answer the likely two first details questions that come up from that schema. Aren't some people going to hit harder than others? Aren't some going to defend better than others? There are additional stats that some monsters possess--abilities, powers, anti-power checks, and invulnerabilities. But the five that are common to all are Health, Precision, Speed, Attack, and Defense.

Avatars (player characters) are focused a little differently but still fit the mold. They all have abilities. Some will also have powers. They generally do not have invulnerabilities or anti-power checks. Those are for things like evil spirits and deital minions. And of course attack and defense modes of human and human-like creatures are going to be mainly dependent upon tools (weapons and armor) and their skills (abilities to use them). This is what is covered in LR4AP.

Everything else is filled in from there according to the needs of play. So questions like "Can I fight with two weapons?" "How does parrying work?" "Can I dodge?" "How does morale work?" "What if I want to prospect for gold?" "What if I want to climb a tree, swing from a vine, and dive into water below?" These are handled in the game master's book (Lejend Masters Lore, aka LML).

So question. what does the armor speed penalty affect?

Answer? Whatever makes sense.

It affects movement speed. It affects attacking speed (which may be used in initiative). Does it affect avoidance checks? Depends. If you're avoiding some sort of physical damage attack, then most likely yes. If you're avoiding a mental attack, such as an attempted mind control, then no. Does it affect your abilities? Generally, no. But if it makes sense to the ability, the penalty may apply. Or even a much harsher one. Stealth is a Precision-based Ability, so a Speed penalty would in no way hamper it. But sneaking around in mail will certainly carry a penalty.

How does this game compared to OD&D and other similar games? Or OSR games?

Is it something special because Gygax made it as his final creation?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1076367How does this game compared to OD&D and other similar games? Or OSR games?

Simple answer: this isn't D&D.  Other than being an FRPG, characters don't look like D&D characters.  A lot of the components are there: saving throws (avoidance rolls), segments/rounds/turns (AB/ABC), classes (Orders), even group initiative and GM procedural rolls (very OD&D).  Its closer to OD&D than AD&D in that a lot of situational rules are left purely to the GM's discretion.  I've heard at least one person say that it's big secret is that it is OD&D with a classless character system.  I wouldn't disagree.  I mean, it is tooled for old-school Gygaxian fantasy.  If you took OD&D, ditched classes and levels as a factor to play, and replaced Vancian spell casting with something different (again, no levels means that tying spells to level requirements is unnecessary), you get LA.  And I would argue that this makes non-dungeon focused play (that is, when the focus of the game is not "deeper levels equals stronger threats") much easier.

But anyone who goes in expecting it to be a retro clone is going to be disappointed.

QuoteIs it something special because Gygax made it as his final creation?

Nope.  I like the game in its own right.  It has its flaws (I'm really glad the whole "Jary Jyjax" thing on TBP has final run its course), but the foundation is solid.  To be brutally honest, if anyone other than Gygax had turned this out, it probably would have been ignored as another fantasy heartbreaker (not unlike quite a few OSR products, IMNSHO – or D&D 4e, for that matter).  Would it have gotten a better reception if it hadn't been released right on the doorstep of 3e and the OGL?  The world will never know.  But atop a pile of OSR D&D clones, there is something fresh about LA.  And I think that makes it worth checking out.  Right now, there is nothing like it on the market (the d100 system is close, but still far from the mark) which is a crying shame for those of us that like D&D-esque fantasy, but don't want to be tied to the class/level stick.

Tom

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1076367How does this game compared to OD&D and other similar games? Or OSR games?

Is it something special because Gygax made it as his final creation?

Can you be more specific?

Are you asking if it's only noteworthy as Gary's final creation? The answer to that is an unquestioned "No." Personally, I got hooked I think it was 1997 while the game was still in beta testing. But this isn't even a subjective thing because as far as I know, Gary's death didn't bring in a wave of new players flocking to LA. Near as I can tell, it was only ever downhill after his death. There was no re-discovery. If it ever attracted anyone's attention, it isn't due to some exalted status as his final creation, that's for sure. And even if there were a new wave of interest, the materials are almost impossible to get for a reasonable amount of money.

Quote from: Lunamancer;1076432Can you be more specific?

Are you asking if it's only noteworthy as Gary's final creation? The answer to that is an unquestioned "No." Personally, I got hooked I think it was 1997 while the game was still in beta testing. But this isn't even a subjective thing because as far as I know, Gary's death didn't bring in a wave of new players flocking to LA. Near as I can tell, it was only ever downhill after his death. There was no re-discovery. If it ever attracted anyone's attention, it isn't due to some exalted status as his final creation, that's for sure. And even if there were a new wave of interest, the materials are almost impossible to get for a reasonable amount of money.

I mean more that, he made it years after making D&D, so he had time to grow as a designer and learn from mistakes, etc. So is this growth evident in the design of the game? Can you look at it and tell it's a marked improvement over OD&D? Or is it just a totally incomparable thing?

And yeah, also curious how it is just as a game on its own.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1076433I mean more that, he made it years after making D&D, so he had time to grow as a designer and learn from mistakes, etc. So is this growth evident in the design of the game? Can you look at it and tell it's a marked improvement over OD&D? Or is it just a totally incomparable thing?

I guess a lot of that depends on your point of view. Some things changed. Some things stayed the same. Some things regressed. Boldly so.

For instance, there's a whole big history of how illusion magic "evolved" from AD&D 1st Ed to what it ended up in AD&D 2nd Ed. A lot of ink was spilled in dragon magazine over it. A lot of the ideas were thoroughly hashed out. They got rid of illusions that could actually hurt you. It became something that could do illusory damage because the victim believes he's being hurt. And it might ultimately cause unconsciousness or heart-attack or some such, so that the damage done could be explained without illusions crossing the line to causing physical harm.

Gary didn't just dial this back. The effects of 1E Phantasmal Force on a believing creature goes "even to the extent of suffering damage." It doesn't come right out and say physical damage. And given how hit points are to be interpreted in AD&D, this can be interpreted to support the 2E way. But in Lejendary Adventure, there is an illusion power that, if believed, will cause wounds to appear "as stigmata do" he specifies. It seems to state the original way wasn't uninformed. Or poorly edited. Or not well thought out. Or just carelessly slapped together amidst the total state of chaos in TSR the mythology of that era tells of. It's like, no, this is exactly what I intended, and exactly what it should be.

If anything, LA could benefit from an infusion with some of the more arcane material in the 1E DMG.

Gary knew his shit. Even when his opinion flew contrary to trend. I look at it, I see that yes, some things were wisely updated while other things wisely resisted short-sighted trends. So if you're not prepared to make a value judgment that some new ideas are good and some are absolutely terrible no matter how popular or ubiquitous, if you're not prepared to entertain the possibility Gary understood a lot more than you do about RPGs, then you're going to find Lejendary Adventure a mixed bag.

QuoteAnd yeah, also curious how it is just as a game on its own.

I was willing to accept the game on its own terms, even wrestle with why things are they way they are at times, and I found the game to be a breath of fresh air. It definitely changed my mindset and approach to all RPGs. I could go back to playing 1E with a whole different appreciation for things. Even when I'm not playing 1E, the DMG comes with me because it's such a useful resource. Even when I'm not playing LA, the spirit of that game guides me.

Well that's what I mean, I would get this game because Gary made it and I'd assume it has a lot of wisdom in it that I could benefit from absorbing.

What would the new appreciation be for 1E?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1076597Well that's what I mean, I would get this game because Gary made it and I'd assume it has a lot of wisdom in it that I could benefit from absorbing.

What would the new appreciation be for 1E?

I could go on for a long time about this, but I'll go with just one example with a lot of layers.

So LA is a skill-based game but it does have class-like archetypes called Orders. Right off the bat, they work very differently from classes of most other RPGs. Usually you choose your class and that in turn sets the parameters for the character's skills and abilities. And your level determines how good you are at those things. And some skills or abilities may advance more quickly than others.

In LA it's the complete opposite. You choose your abilities. Your abilities then qualify you for membership. How high your scores are determine your rank (which is kind of like level). Something about this rings more true than how other RPGs do it. There are also some interesting implications to this.

It suggests these aren't just abstract categories put in place for game purposes. They're partly that but they also represent in-game organizations. Orders do not get tangled up in any one particular organization. They are more general than that. For instance, being a captain in the soldier order doesn't mean you can go over to the enemy's army and start ordering their men-at-arms around. But there still is some recognition of rank. Like you're not going to negotiate a cease-fire with a mere corporal.

So what if that's what classes are supposed to be like in D&D? What if that's why they were given titles? The titles in D&D don't make a lot of sense, sure. Here's an area where LA not just boldly stepped backwards to the old idea of class titles, but they also stepped forward in improving them. But all of a sudden explains things like why three rangers can't operate together. Because somewhere in the woods there's an actual lodge where they hang out, drink hot cider, and exchange information and stories. And there's actually something like union rules. And those can be as arbitrary as anything.

Here's another thing about the LA approach to classes. Think about demi-human class/level restrictions in D&D. In LA, there is no upper limit on ratings for any abilities for any race. There are some abilities some races can never learn, but they are few, and it's mainly Orcs and Oafs who face that restriction. Ilfs may learn any ability at all. Dwarfs are only excluded from learning Chivalry. So for the most part, you have unfettered access to building the non-human Avatars any way you choose. However, most of them have a hard time fitting into the Orders. There's no limit on the capacity of non-humans, but they are hindered and even limited within Orders, which, again, are not merely abstract game elements. They represent in-game social orders. And in a humanocentric world, that makes them mainly human social orders.

So what if that's how it's supposed to be in D&D? All of a sudden any arbitrary class and level restriction makes all the sense in the world. Cuz humans don't accept you to go any further than that is all the explanation that's required. It gets even more interesting, though. There's an exception to the rule. All but half-orcs may advance without limit as thieves. Turns out the one class that represents those who operate outside of the established social order allows limitless demi-human advancement. How's that for a coincidence?

Dig a little deeper. Imagine an elf thief who's had the opportunity to gain XP for a thousand years. Reaching who knows what level. Thief THAC0 in 1E may be capped at 10, but they keep gaining 2 hp for level. At some point, that keeps the thief alive long enough to outfight any human fighter. The thief class can also use magic. When read from scrolls. How many scrolls could an elf thief accumulate over a thousand years? At some point he has more magical fire power than any human mage. Dwarves, for that matter, also get to use magic via the thief class even though they are barred from the magic-user class entirely. Like LA, there is no upper limit at all in BtB D&D to the actual capacities of demi-humans. Only to their recognition in the social structures of a humanocentric world. Everything is possible. There are only different paths to achieve things.

Great post

I just wanted to add that is so good to see this thread alive again. Not enough time to individual replies right now, but a lot of great nuggets of wisdom here. Thanks everyone, and especially Lunamancer for hearing the Lejendary Call.

Quote from: Lunamancer;1076958I could go on for a long time about this, but I'll go with just one example with a lot of layers.

So LA is a skill-based game but it does have class-like archetypes called Orders. Right off the bat, they work very differently from classes of most other RPGs. Usually you choose your class and that in turn sets the parameters for the character's skills and abilities. And your level determines how good you are at those things. And some skills or abilities may advance more quickly than others.

In LA it's the complete opposite. You choose your abilities. Your abilities then qualify you for membership. How high your scores are determine your rank (which is kind of like level). Something about this rings more true than how other RPGs do it. There are also some interesting implications to this.

It suggests these aren't just abstract categories put in place for game purposes. They're partly that but they also represent in-game organizations. Orders do not get tangled up in any one particular organization. They are more general than that. For instance, being a captain in the soldier order doesn't mean you can go over to the enemy's army and start ordering their men-at-arms around. But there still is some recognition of rank. Like you're not going to negotiate a cease-fire with a mere corporal.

So what if that's what classes are supposed to be like in D&D? What if that's why they were given titles? The titles in D&D don't make a lot of sense, sure. Here's an area where LA not just boldly stepped backwards to the old idea of class titles, but they also stepped forward in improving them. But all of a sudden explains things like why three rangers can't operate together. Because somewhere in the woods there's an actual lodge where they hang out, drink hot cider, and exchange information and stories. And there's actually something like union rules. And those can be as arbitrary as anything.

Here's another thing about the LA approach to classes. Think about demi-human class/level restrictions in D&D. In LA, there is no upper limit on ratings for any abilities for any race. There are some abilities some races can never learn, but they are few, and it's mainly Orcs and Oafs who face that restriction. Ilfs may learn any ability at all. Dwarfs are only excluded from learning Chivalry. So for the most part, you have unfettered access to building the non-human Avatars any way you choose. However, most of them have a hard time fitting into the Orders. There's no limit on the capacity of non-humans, but they are hindered and even limited within Orders, which, again, are not merely abstract game elements. They represent in-game social orders. And in a humanocentric world, that makes them mainly human social orders.

So what if that's how it's supposed to be in D&D? All of a sudden any arbitrary class and level restriction makes all the sense in the world. Cuz humans don't accept you to go any further than that is all the explanation that's required. It gets even more interesting, though. There's an exception to the rule. All but half-orcs may advance without limit as thieves. Turns out the one class that represents those who operate outside of the established social order allows limitless demi-human advancement. How's that for a coincidence?

Dig a little deeper. Imagine an elf thief who's had the opportunity to gain XP for a thousand years. Reaching who knows what level. Thief THAC0 in 1E may be capped at 10, but they keep gaining 2 hp for level. At some point, that keeps the thief alive long enough to outfight any human fighter. The thief class can also use magic. When read from scrolls. How many scrolls could an elf thief accumulate over a thousand years? At some point he has more magical fire power than any human mage. Dwarves, for that matter, also get to use magic via the thief class even though they are barred from the magic-user class entirely. Like LA, there is no upper limit at all in BtB D&D to the actual capacities of demi-humans. Only to their recognition in the social structures of a humanocentric world. Everything is possible. There are only different paths to achieve things.

I don't quite understand what you're getting at. Are you saying it makes a lot of the D&D tropes/rules take place organically, so they feel like they make sense?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1077218I don't quite understand what you're getting at. Are you saying it makes a lot of the D&D tropes/rules take place organically, so they feel like they make sense?

I wasn't really getting at anything. LA gave me a new appreciation for AD&D. You asked what the new appreciation was. I gave one example. And note, it's just that. One example. It's not representative, doesn't establish a pattern, says nothing. It's just a concrete example of how after playing LA I began thinking about things in AD&D I hadn't considered before.

I can respect that.

Now that obscure necrourgic powers woke up this thread, I have one question for the experts :)

Plaques:
For the casual readers, let's remember that a Plaque is the LA version of a Scroll, and the Memory Tablet is the Spellbook of the caster.

Use: According to the text the Plaques can be activated by any character, even if he doesn't possess the Ability. Does it use the Speed (2x) of the Avatar?

Edited: 2X a racial extraordinary abilities.

How can you Inscribe a Plaque to a Memory Tablet?
In the LML (or DMG for LA) p76 states that "The inscribed information can be retained on the plaque for transcription to a tablet." However, the process is not explained.

Quote from: Rithuan;1077598Now that obscure necrourgic powers woke up this thread, I have one question for the experts :)

Plaques:
For the casual readers, let's remember that a Plaque is the LA version of a Scroll, and the Memory Tablet is the Spellbook of the caster.

Use: According to the text the Plaques can be activated by any character, even if he doesn't possess the Ability. Does it use the Speed (2x) of the Avatar?

It actually specifies by any character able to use Extraordinary Abilities. So a Mage could use a plaque containing a power of Necrourgy or vice versa. Presumably the probability would be based on the highest Extraordinary Ability possessed.

QuoteEdited: 2X a racial extraordinary abilities.

I would put this in the realm of up to the individual Lejend Master. But, sure. I'd be game. So a Wylf, for example, with innate Psychogenic powers but who does not possess the Psychogenics Ability will activate those powers at Speed x2. If that Wylf finds a plaque with, say, a Geourgy power, the same Speed x2 would apply to the use of the plaque. This assumes that the LM does rule that use of specific innate racial extraordinary powers meets the qualification of Extraordinary Ability in general. And further assumes that the LM does not rule Psychogenics Ability does not grant memory plaque usage. After all, there don't seem to be psychogenics plaques, so it's a good bet that the LM will disqualify psychogenics even though it's technically an Extraordinary Ability.

QuoteHow can you Inscribe a Plaque to a Memory Tablet?
In the LML (or DMG for LA) p76 states that "The inscribed information can be retained on the plaque for transcription to a tablet." However, the process is not explained.

We assume that it happens just as quickly and easily as activating a power from the plaque. That would seem to imply that an Ability check is also required or else the power of the plaque is squandered and lost forever without the power being transferred to a tablet. Generally this will be done "between adventures" where the Avatar can do so under utmost optimal conditions. Per LR4AP, there is a bonus of 30 to 50 for activating under optimal conditions. If the extraordinary ability is the Avatar's first Ability, this pretty much raises chance for success to 100%.

I don't think we've ever had an Avatar whose first ability wasn't an extraordinary one try to record a power from a plaque to a memory tablet. Nor have we ever had someone try it in the middle of an adventure. As such, we've never required an Ability check for it. Reasonable players, reasonable GMs.

Quote from: Lunamancer;1077934It actually specifies by any character able to use Extraordinary Abilities. So a Mage could use a plaque containing a power of Necrourgy or vice versa. Presumably the probability would be based on the highest Extraordinary Ability possessed.

You're absolutely right. For future reference, p76 of the LML. :)

Quote from: Lunamancer;1077934I would put this in the realm of up to the individual Lejend Master. But, sure. I'd be game. So a Wylf, for example, with innate Psychogenic powers but who does not possess the Psychogenics Ability will activate those powers at Speed x2. If that Wylf finds a plaque with, say, a Geourgy power, the same Speed x2 would apply to the use of the plaque. This assumes that the LM does rule that use of specific innate racial extraordinary powers meets the qualification of Extraordinary Ability in general. And further assumes that the LM does not rule Psychogenics Ability does not grant memory plaque usage. After all, there don't seem to be psychogenics plaques, so it's a good bet that the LM will disqualify psychogenics even though it's technically an Extraordinary Ability.

Awesome way to solve it. I didn't even consider this scenario but it is a great way to solve it. Thank you!

I have a more mundane question, regarding the price choice for certain items and the in-world implications:
Swords and Armor
For our new readers: LA uses this $ system to assign the price to items. The amount could be easily replaced by "gold coins" once you establish that 1 gold coin = $500.

Now, the price of the swords is several times higher than the armors. For example:

Steel Plate full = $50.000
Sword = $35.000 to $100.000

My question is (because this is deliberate not a mistake), Did Gygax or anyone in the LA team explain the reason for the cost of swords?

My personal explanation is that Armors needs to be repaired after combat, and swords do not require it per rules. Although it makes sense rules-wise, it doesn't make much sense in the world.

Another explanation is taxes. Yes, I know, its a weak explanation, but it might be required to pay taxes and collect special favors to have the right to use weapons in this world. We have Noble Orders, and maybe in this fantasy setting, not everyone is allowed to have swords. Then again, why the armor or shield are not restricted is beyond me...

I remember once when Gygax was asked about sword prices on the LA forums.  To the best of my recollection, his answer was to compare swords with cars.  The price range reflects everything from your basic sword to something incredibly ornate and even ornamental.  But I don't remember anyone drawing a comparison between armor and sword prices before.

Of course, in terms of gold ($500), we are talking a range of 70-200 gp for a sword (what kind of sword is that BTW?), and 100 gp for full steel plate.  My guess is that it has much less to do with the materials involved than the craftsmanship.  So an ornate suit of plate mail would easily command twice that price.

Tom

Quote from: Blusponge;1078231(what kind of sword is that BTW?)

I took these values from Essential p25.
Two-handed sword (Sword Cutting, heavy) $100.000
/with  Scabbard $101.000

By the way, does anyone know if there is a back up of the Lejendary forum? I have reviewed ENworld and Dragonsfoot, but I can't access the Lejendary forums.

Quote from: Rithuan;1078196My question is (because this is deliberate not a mistake), Did Gygax or anyone in the LA team explain the reason for the cost of swords?

A big thing that people often miss, this IS in the general equipment list in LR4AP, but there's a bit more detail in the Traders list in LML (pg 29). There are two other types of swords:

Sword, average, crude, cutting/hacking, $1000, and
Sword, average, crude, cutting & thrusting, $2000

The LML has a footnote that these swords break on a roll of 96-00. Keep in mind, most weapons break only on a roll of 00, and daggers and (high quality) swords break only on a 00 with a confirming die roll of 7-10 on d10 (0.4% of the time). The average/crude swords are priced around what most weapons are priced at. They break more often, but they generally have better overall stats--minimum harm, weapon precision, weapon speed. The higher quality swords are about 12.5 times more durable than the lower quality ones.

QuoteMy personal explanation is that Armors needs to be repaired after combat, and swords do not require it per rules. Although it makes sense rules-wise, it doesn't make much sense in the world.

Interesting thing about that. This topic came up 2 months ago on the LA facebook group. Take a look at these two responses:

Quote from: John Healy IIIf you compare the historical price of a sword with the one in LA you will find it to be rather accurate. For a knight buying a sword was the modern equivalent of buying a car or big truck.

Quote from: Christopher ClarkIt doesn't work well for the rules tho' so we had a house rule that the price of weaponry was 1/10th what was listed, and the price of mounts was 1/3rd. Why? Because a party could be set for life by simply killing off a patrol of Roman Soldiers and selling their weapons and armor. It would bring enough, at going rates, to rent an 8-room luxury villa for a year! I didn't want anyone carrying a sword to be an instant target (like someone walking around with 50k jewelry proudly displayed).

They seem to be saying the opposite. That this is historical/realistic, but doesn't work well for the rules. It's kind of crazy how two different people can look at LA and see the same thing "flawed" in the exact opposite ways.

If you didn't already know, Chris Clark was like one of the main guys who wrote this game. I also strongly disagree with him on this point, and this is due to the average/crude swords I previous mentioned. I assume swords used by rank and file soldiers and rag tag bands of orcs or bandits will be of the average crude kind. You can still have that mental image of these guys using swords. Still grant them the superior combat benefits. But you avoid the problem of Avatars becoming rich off of selling swords they collect. And I consider it an added benefit. Swords breaking adds to the imagery. It makes it more likely NPCs will use their back-up weapons. But it doesn't simultaneously addle Avatars weapon breakage to the point of annoyance.

QuoteAnother explanation is taxes. Yes, I know, its a weak explanation, but it might be required to pay taxes and collect special favors to have the right to use weapons in this world. We have Noble Orders, and maybe in this fantasy setting, not everyone is allowed to have swords. Then again, why the armor or shield are not restricted is beyond me...

Would an economics explanation be preferable? Prices serve a "rationing" function. The world has a very limited number of craftsmen talented enough to make these swords. There are more people who want to have the swords than there are swords to be had. So who gets them? Those who are willing and able to pay the most. Who has the most means and the most land (which produces wealth) to defend? Nobles. Yeah. They lock those things down. Whether by law, by force, or just by outbidding everyone else.

Quote from: Rithuan;1078251By the way, does anyone know if there is a back up of the Lejendary forum? I have reviewed ENworld and Dragonsfoot, but I can't access the Lejendary forums.

I'll tell you the extent of what I know about it.

Chris Smith, aka Gambit ran lejendary.com. He put a lot into it. He finally had to prioritize his family. He was in talks with Gary to work out some sort of remuneration for all the work he'd done. Gary died, and Gambit got iced out of everything. So he took the boards off line, and as far as I know he's still sitting on the backup data until someone pays him.

Quote from: Lunamancer;1078283I'll tell you the extent of what I know about it.

Chris Smith, aka Gambit ran lejendary.com. He put a lot into it. He finally had to prioritize his family. He was in talks with Gary to work out some sort of remuneration for all the work he'd done. Gary died, and Gambit got iced out of everything. So he took the boards off line, and as far as I know he's still sitting on the backup data until someone pays him.

Thank you so much for sharing this. I'm glad to hear that those boards weren't lost. Unfortunately,  what I have read regarding LA IP after Gygax died, it sounds possible.

I hope Gambit get the owned payment or recognition some day. I bet the postfest and discussions in that forum could fuel several hours of Lejendary discussion.

Quote from: Lunamancer;1078282A big thing that people often miss, this IS in the general equipment list in LR4AP, but there's a bit more detail in the Traders list in LML (pg 29). There are two other types of swords:

There is a lot to unpack in this post, but you're again right on this account. Crude-average swords are a thing, not for Avatars (or PC for LA) since they have access to the finest equipment, but from traders.

Also, if I recall correctly, most criminals and low lives don't use swords in the BoL (or monster manual for LA). They use Spears, Bows, clubs, and Knives. So I tend to agree with your perspectives.

As you mention in a previous post, this kind of details from the setting emerges from the rules (monster stats) or equipment price. It's kind of fascinating.

Quote from: Lunamancer;1078282Would an economics explanation be preferable? Prices serve a "rationing" function. The world has a very limited number of craftsmen talented enough to make these swords. There are more people who want to have the swords than there are swords to be had. So who gets them? Those who are willing and able to pay the most. Who has the most means and the most land (which produces wealth) to defend? Nobles. Yeah. They lock those things down. Whether by law, by force, or just by outbidding everyone else.

Although I really like this train of thought, in my mind it clashes with the price of armors. To my knowledge, it requires more materials and greater expertise. But, if we want to make one single adjustment, I would increase the price of the full steel mail and plate armor. The rest of the armors align well with the other weapons price, and allows us to keep this particular flavor that "you can't get a sword in every town."

Ah, and yes, I recognize Chris Clark! So good to know he still offers his input and wisdom for this game. Overall makes me re-think the ieda to open a facebook account.

Quote from: Rithuan;1078300There is a lot to unpack in this post, but you're again right on this account. Crude-average swords are a thing, not for Avatars (or PC for LA) since they have access to the finest equipment, but from traders.

It reminds me of an example I once read about tennis balls. Cheap tennis balls are a good thing if you're in the market so you can work on your serve.  You buy like a hundred of them so you don't have to keep chasing the ball after every serve. But if you're going to play a tennis match, you want the most expensive, highest quality tennis ball you can find. Because one ball is all you really need for the game, and it would take away from the match if the ball were defective.

I'd use the average/crude type to fight minions. A fine cut and thrust may be 12.5 times more durable, but it costs 47.5 more. But if I'm fighting a high grade warrior who's a good match, I don't need a broken sword losing the fight for me. So for those, I want only the best swords.

QuoteAs you mention in a previous post, this kind of details from the setting emerges from the rules (monster stats) or equipment price. It's kind of fascinating.

Not that anyone hates it, but the original monster manual is far, far, far, far, far better a resource than most people realize. No one ever bothers to read the common monsters. Or "men". We already know that stuff. But there are such interesting details in there that implies something about the setting. And, yeah, there's some good stuff in the BoL like that, too. I like to cross over those details between game systems because they're so good.

QuoteAlthough I really like this train of thought, in my mind it clashes with the price of armors. To my knowledge, it requires more materials and greater expertise. But, if we want to make one single adjustment, I would increase the price of the full steel mail and plate armor. The rest of the armors align well with the other weapons price, and allows us to keep this particular flavor that "you can't get a sword in every town."

It gets tricky to compare. One of the things that comes out in actual play, assume you pay attention to such details, is the price tag is only the beginning of the cost of armor. Repairs on plate armor are $50 per point, and even that assumes only an 80% chance for successful repairs. We pretty much imagine gold coins and greenbacks gushing forth from our character's wounds every time they're hit. Full steel plate will lose as many as 13 points from a single hit. You get on average 250 attack rolls with a sword before it breaks. Of those 250, how many will hit? How much total harm will it do to armor? How much will it cost to repair that damage to armor? That's the real cost of armor.

So say half of those attacks hit. Half of those hits cause less harm than the armor's protection, the other half maxes out harm to armor. It's about 1180 harm. For sake of comparison, say you repair the armor as you go but ultimately allow it to fall into disrepair and break entirely. You'll have to spend $32,500 on repairs for 650 points, only 520 of which will be successful. 520 plus the 660 points of harm full steel plate can take gets back to the 1180. So the total cost of the armor is actually $82,500 for a life equal to the sword.

Shields are relatively cheap and generally not worth repairing. So we've learned to think of shields as something that protects the armor.

QuoteAh, and yes, I recognize Chris Clark! So good to know he still offers his input and wisdom for this game. Overall makes me re-think the ieda to open a facebook account.

Dwight, who went by the name Kersus on lejendary.com, has been maintaining his own message board where he's kept an LA forum alive. He began a new group for LA on MeWe. Not a lot of activity over there yet, though.

Thanks for the full analysis. Its a great breakdown of the expenses to maintain an armor (and maybe the necessity to have a cheaper sword at hand for lower foes). For future reference, LML (or DM guide) page 28 and 122 for further details in repair armors and weapons.

I have two additional questions (and yes, I love the chance to ask and receive answers the same week!)

Theurgy and Materials
There is a confusing line in the LR4AP (or players handbook) regarding the propitiation and votive materials. (p168)

"In addition to recording what propitiation and votive materials are necessary, each Invocation, Rite and Power possessed must be recorded on a Theurgy Memory tablet." Does this mean that propitiation and votive materials use a slot in the Memory Tablet?  I don't believe it since they are physical materials, but I just wanted to be 100% sure.

Crafting extraordinary items and alchemy
Does any of you have experience in this subject (in Lejendary Adventures, of course!). I have so many questions on this subject. I want to compare notes, mostly on the difficulties of the process and the number of abilities required.

Quick question: is there any compiled errata and/or FAQ for the LA books? My Google-Fu is weak on this matter.

Quote from: Atsuku Nare;1078454Quick question: is there any compiled errata and/or FAQ for the LA books? My Google-Fu is weak on this matter.

That's a great question. I know one FAQ and a few errata.
The Dragonsfoot FAQ is available here: https://www.dragonsfoot.org/la/articles/faq.shtml

For the errata, you have to dive into the internet archives of the original lejendary adventures website. You can find a "Lmerrata", "Ordererrata" and the "Playererrata" as pdf.

However, to my knowledge, they don't contain the latest post from Gary's in Dragonsfoot or Enworld.

Quote from: Rithuan;1078402"In addition to recording what propitiation and votive materials are necessary, each Invocation, Rite and Power possessed must be recorded on a Theurgy Memory tablet." Does this mean that propitiation and votive materials use a slot in the Memory Tablet?  I don't believe it since they are physical materials, but I just wanted to be 100% sure.

Yes, you are correct. They are materials. They must be selected among your initial equipment picks and recorded on the Avatar sheet. But they are not recorded on memory tablets. They are necessary to perform an invocation, which in turn is necessary to perform a rite.

QuoteCrafting extraordinary items and alchemy
Does any of you have experience in this subject (in Lejendary Adventures, of course!). I have so many questions on this subject. I want to compare notes, mostly on the difficulties of the process and the number of abilities required.

One thing I'd say, and I say the same thing about D&D. Take a look at the list of powers Avatars can learn. Then look at the list of extraordinary items in the LML. You'll notice some items do things there's no power for. And there are powers for which there is no corresponding item. I mention this because one thing a lot of people seem to expect is that you'll create magic items by piecing powers together like a puzzle. Na. It's a bit hand-wavey. There are a selection of powers you need to create an extraordinary item.

The Abilities required are Arcana, Evaluation, Learning, and Metallurgy. This is in addition to either Enchantment or Geourgy, depending what sort of item is being created. The principal ability for the check is Metallurgy--the probability of success is 10% of Metallurgy plus 5% of each of the other abilities. Note that Metallurgy is specifically mentioned under the armor repair section as being necessary for the repair of extraordinary armor. Even non-metal armor. So for creating most extraordinary objects, even non-metal ones, metallurgy would be the main ability. Just call it a badly-named Ability. I believe it's intended to be the equivalent of Heka-Forging from the Dangerous Journeys RPG.

For things such at magical herbs, ointments, boluses, ambrosias, potions, and so forth, that would obviously call for Alchemia as the chief Ability. I would not require Metallurgy for these items. I would allow a Mage who does not possess Alchemia to hire an Alchemist.

One thing that might strike people as peculiar. As far as how it's spelled out in LML, you need either Enchantment or Geourgy to create extraordinary items. You can't do it if you only possess Theurgy, or only Necrourgy, or only Sorcery. I don't think that was a mistake. Even if you want to house rule them in, you'd be missing the half dozen or so dedicated powers they should have for creating extraordinary items. So you'd have to figure out something with that.

But I generally just assume it's going to be mainly NACs who are making magic items. NAC's with Extraordinary Abilities often do have multiple Extraordinary Abilities. One with Necrourgy and Enchantment, for example, would be able to make "Necrourgy" items.

Quote from: Atsuku Nare;1078454Quick question: is there any compiled errata and/or FAQ for the LA books? My Google-Fu is weak on this matter.

There are both.

A caveat, though. The "errata" was mostly new materials and updates. And the "FAQ" still gets a lot of things wrong. You can imagine the challenge of people who didn't understand what Gary was saying the first time also not understanding what he's saying the second time.

Lejendary FAQ (https://web.archive.org/web/20031002172406/http://www.lejendary.com:80/la/template.php?page=faq&style=blaze)
Lejendary Errata (http://www.lejendary.com/la/template.php?page=errata&style=blaze)

Thank you for the answers and the links to the old errata. Who knows? We might create an updated version after a few more post o this thread.

So, regarding alchemy and extraordinary objects, there is a lot to unpack on my end. This is by far the hardest thing to understand, and due to my preference for Alchemy in RPGs, one that comes close to my dearest subject.

Your post provides an insight of the process, the skills associated and the activations (or Spells as they are called in LA).

QuoteThe Abilities required are Arcana, Evaluation, Learning, and Metallurgy. This is in addition to either Enchantment or Geourgy, depending what sort of item is being created. The principal ability for the check is Metallurgy--the probability of success is 10% of Metallurgy plus 5% of each of the other abilities. Note that Metallurgy is specifically mentioned under the armor repair section as being necessary for the repair of extraordinary armor. Even non-metal armor. So for creating most extraordinary objects, even non-metal ones, metallurgy would be the main ability. Just call it a badly-named Ability. I believe it's intended to be the equivalent of Heka-Forging from the Dangerous Journeys RPG.

For things such at magical herbs, ointments, boluses, ambrosias, potions, and so forth, that would obviously call for Alchemia as the chief Ability. I would not require Metallurgy for these items. I would allow a Mage who does not possess Alchemia to hire an Alchemist.

I understood the same regarding Alchemia if its consumable item. Mechanics is mentioned if its permanent object, and the rule inlcude Metallurgic (or shall we call it Lejendary-Forge) for all rolls. But I agree with your ruling, and not use Metallurgic for potions and bolus.

QuoteOne thing that might strike people as peculiar. As far as how it's spelled out in LML, you need either Enchantment or Geourgy to create extraordinary items. You can't do it if you only possess Theurgy, or only Necrourgy, or only Sorcery. I don't think that was a mistake. Even if you want to house rule them in, you'd be missing the half dozen or so dedicated powers they should have for creating extraordinary items. So you'd have to figure out something with that.

But I generally just assume it's going to be mainly NACs who are making magic items. NAC's with Extraordinary Abilities often do have multiple Extraordinary Abilities. One with Necrourgy and Enchantment, for example, would be able to make "Necrourgy" items.

I understood the same here. And this creates two new questions for me:
1) Would you require "Theurgy" as an additional skill to create an item similar to Bolus of Health (LML, p51)?
2) Would you allow cooperation? Let's say you dont posess Theourgy, but a Priest help you in the process of creating this extraordinary object? (After all, you end up using 6 or 7 diferent skills!)

QuoteI mention this because one thing a lot of people seem to expect is that you'll create magic items by piecing powers together like a puzzle. Na. It's a bit hand-wavey. There are a selection of powers you need to create an extraordinary item.

Yes, this is a good reminder. rules-wise and in the spirit of the rules. Also, open a can of worms for me. The required activations to start the process.

Enchantments and Geourgy have several activations for this. However, these activations require a second roll. So, my question here is:
3) How many rolls do you need to create an object and when do you roll them?
1- Original Activation (For example Amalgamate Vegetable Energy, LR4AP p66)
2- Extraordinary Item creation (the roll at the end of Amalgamate Vegetable Energy)
3- Enchantment per se (descibed in LML p117)

Quote from: Rithuan;1078500Thank you for the answers and the links to the old errata. Who knows? We might create an updated version after a few more post o this thread.

If we can somehow manage to gather an active community again, I'd write it myself. It's really not an easy thing to write, but I've been fielding these questions for nearly 20 years now. I've gotten better and better at answering them over time, to the point where I have a fairly clear as to what needs to be communicated for most questions. Not so much the Extraordinary Items, though, because not a lot of people ask about that, and I think they're generally just handwaved away, assumed to be created by NACs.

QuoteSo, regarding alchemy and extraordinary objects, there is a lot to unpack on my end. This is by far the hardest thing to understand, and due to my preference for Alchemy in RPGs, one that comes close to my dearest subject.

I've given consumables a lot of extra thoughts for a couple of reasons. One, I like the old hag trope. An old lady who lives on the edge of town, or some remote hut in the woods. Whether she's good, evil, helpful or baneful, that I vary. By individual woman, but also at times by how Avatars treat her. Almost all of them are skilled herbalists, but that is often mixed with other extraordinary abilities.

The other reason, though, is I think back to when I started playing D&D as a kid. Even before I actually owned any books and was just drawing dungeon maps on construction paper. I didn't yet know what a cleric was (and even when I got the basic set, they don't get spells until 2nd level). The idea of having a "healer" in the party was foreign. Healing potions were necessary to keep the game moving forward. The more I think about it, it's not just nostalgia, or that we were ignorant and less discerning when we were younger. Or that the whole thing was new. Some of the things we did back then are just plain better/more fun than how adults play. And one of the neat things about the healing potion dynamic is that when you're hurt, back then a lot of time we got to thinking we just need to plow through the next encounter. They may have a healing potion. It tended to keep things moving. And more exciting because often the best strategy was NOT playing it safe.

Now, of course, i still am a crusty old adult. I can't go back completely. So I need some plausible explanation for healing potions everywhere. So I decided to just stretch a bit the medicinal properties of herbs, decided herbalists would be more common, that they infuse them with a bit o' magic, but not so much that it requires a powerful practitioner or anything the caliber of D&D. So again, the old hag trope works great. Yeah. I'm big on herbalists in my game.

QuoteI understood the same regarding Alchemia if its consumable item. Mechanics is mentioned if its permanent object, and the rule inlcude Metallurgic (or shall we call it Lejendary-Forge) for all rolls. But I agree with your ruling, and not use Metallurgic for potions and bolus.

I was trying to keep it brief. Yes. Mechanics is mentioned. What I described (which does not include mechanics) is the process of infusing the magic into the item. Mechanics comes into play because the item itself has to be flawless. So if it's steel armor being crafted for magical enchantment, it takes both Mechanics and Metallurgy, weekly checks, and even one failed check means having to scrap the whole thing and start over. How many checks is that in all? Depends on the item.

There's all that, plus the infusion probability. The infusion probability is also a one-shot check. Though if it fails, I might allow for a successful luck check to give one re-roll.

I would also require individual activations. I'd give a 24 hour window for regular activations. Failed activations are permissible so long as you have the AEPs to finish the job. Thus having higher Ability score and greater AEPs is necessary for more powerful items. Naturally.

So in other words, there are three steps. Steps 1 and 3 may require quite a few checks. Step 2 is the main gatekeeper though and it's one shot, pass or fail.

QuoteI understood the same here. And this creates two new questions for me:
1) Would you require "Theurgy" as an additional skill to create an item similar to Bolus of Health (LML, p51)?
2) Would you allow cooperation? Let's say you dont posess Theourgy, but a Priest help you in the process of creating this extraordinary object? (After all, you end up using 6 or 7 diferent skills!)

Enchanters have a power called Convey Energy. It's a highly potent healing spell. In terms of AEP efficiency, you're better off using the Theurgy Heal power to recover harm of 25 or less. For higher than that, Convey Energy is a much better power. Point being, Enchanters certainly can produce healing effects.

As to cooperation of activators, I tend to want to limit this. I like the idea of out-sourcing Alchemy ability. That was in the 1E magic item creation rules, too. When MU's first become able to create potions, they need to hire an alchemist. At higher levels, they can do it all themselves. I think out-sourcing the creation of the item is perfectly kosher, too. Like if you wanted to have a special armorer create the armor. Just keep in mind, this would have to be a very special armorer, one with Metallurgy--a heka-forger, if you will. But when it comes time to infuse the power, it's dependent upon one Avatar's several abilities. Considering what I mentioned above about my personal campaign, that I like the campaign's magic items to skew towards consumables, and I like having herbalists all around--you can understand why I "house rule" Alchemia as an exception to this. But that's not to say this sort of think should be always permissible.

Now I could see multiple activators cooperating if through some magic device they are able to channel their activation energy. Per my step 3 above, having those extra AEPs is key to making more powerful items.

Quote from: Lunamancer;1078520If we can somehow manage to gather an active community again, I'd write it myself. It's really not an easy thing to write, but I've been fielding these questions for nearly 20 years now. I've gotten better and better at answering them over time, to the point where I have a fairly clear as to what needs to be communicated for most questions.

That's awesome! Even without an active community, I think it will be instrumental for new players (out of curiosity or luck) that start reading this game. Even the advice to start with BoL and continue with LML before LR4AP.

QuoteEnchanters have a power called Convey Energy. It's a highly potent healing spell. In terms of AEP efficiency, you're better off using the Theurgy Heal power to recover harm of 25 or less. For higher than that, Convey Energy is a much better power. Point being, Enchanters certainly can produce healing effects.

As to cooperation of activators, I tend to want to limit this. I like the idea of out-sourcing Alchemy ability. That was in the 1E magic item creation rules, too. When MU's first become able to create potions, they need to hire an alchemist. At higher levels, they can do it all themselves. I think out-sourcing the creation of the item is perfectly kosher, too.

Got it. There is an Enchantment to create a feast, so the property to work as a meal can also be extracted from Enchantment. But a third property of the bolus was to heal diseases. On that account, since we already have 2 out of 3 effects, I would consider discarding this effect in the bolus created by the Avatar, or merely consider it an enhancement of the medicinal herbs used as source material.

QuoteI was trying to keep it brief. Yes. Mechanics is mentioned. What I described (which does not include mechanics) is the process of infusing the magic into the item. Mechanics comes into play because the item itself has to be flawless. So if it's steel armor being crafted for magical enchantment, it takes both Mechanics and Metallurgy, weekly checks, and even one failed check means having to scrap the whole thing and start over. How many checks is that in all? Depends on the item.

There's all that, plus the infusion probability. The infusion probability is also a one-shot check. Though if it fails, I might allow for a successful luck check to give one re-roll.

I would also require individual activations. I'd give a 24 hour window for regular activations. Failed activations are permissible so long as you have the AEPs to finish the job. Thus having higher Ability score and greater AEPs is necessary for more powerful items. Naturally.

So in other words, there are three steps. Steps 1 and 3 may require quite a few checks. Step 2 is the main gatekeeper though and it's one shot, pass or fail.

I have to confess that I'm still a bit lost in this process. If you have the time (and only if you have the time!) would you mind going create an extraordinary item, step by step? I think it would be great considering the skill selection, the original object selection, and the activations required (permanence for example)

On a side note, exploring the LML, I found several items that caught my attention regarding alchemy.

Mandrake [LML p 31]
Materia (for Alchemia) [LML pg 31]
Herbs (for Alchemia) [LML pg 31]
Berries (for Alchemia) [LML pg 30]

The other thing that caught my attention was that the Lejends Magazine included special items such as Ambrosias, Boluses and Wound Dressings at a fantastic price (1500 per Grade + 10% to 40% more).

Also, they included the kobold Fixative... wich is a question on its own!
(How this thing works? Can I apply it to my house windows and doors? how long does it last?)

Also, the Alchemist order and the Rustic skill is another question on its own! (Where do we use it in the create an extraordinary item? Finding the materials?)

So many questions. God, I love this game.

Quote from: Rithuan;1078459That's a great question. I know one FAQ and a few errata.
The Dragonsfoot FAQ is available here: https://www.dragonsfoot.org/la/articles/faq.shtml

For the errata, you have to dive into the internet archives of the original lejendary adventures website. You can find a "Lmerrata", "Ordererrata" and the "Playererrata" as pdf.

However, to my knowledge, they don't contain the latest post from Gary's in Dragonsfoot or Enworld.

Thanks for the pointers! I will investigate.

Another question - aside from the abilities of Health, Precision, and Speed, there is an optional 4th ability of Intellect. Does anyone play with this option?

Quote from: Lunamancer;1078482There are both.

A caveat, though. The "errata" was mostly new materials and updates. And the "FAQ" still gets a lot of things wrong. You can imagine the challenge of people who didn't understand what Gary was saying the first time also not understanding what he's saying the second time.

Lejendary FAQ (https://web.archive.org/web/20031002172406/http://www.lejendary.com:80/la/template.php?page=faq&style=blaze)
Lejendary Errata (http://www.lejendary.com/la/template.php?page=errata&style=blaze)

Thanks for the pointers and the advice. I'll read these over and see what makes the most sense to me for when I run LA.

Quote from: Atsuku Nare;1078626Thanks for the pointers! I will investigate.

Another question - aside from the abilities of Health, Precision, and Speed, there is an optional 4th ability of Intellect. Does anyone play with this option?

Hello there. I don't use Intelect. My reason is that the Base Rates are broad enough to cover all bases. If you start separating Intellect from Health, you might as well separate Speed from "Extraordinary Power" to differentiate physical reaction from raw magic potential.

Also, Intellect is my less favorite type of attribute in any RPG (that's a personal bias).

As an option, if you consider that some skill should be cover by a BR other than Health, I might use Speed or even Precision. My main message here is "try to keep things simple." Roleplaying on the hands of the players and Ruling on your hand will be the most important factor. But please take this advise with a grain of salt, since I have run the game just one time.

Quote from: Rithuan;1078587I have to confess that I'm still a bit lost in this process. If you have the time (and only if you have the time!) would you mind going create an extraordinary item, step by step? I think it would be great considering the skill selection, the original object selection, and the activations required (permanence for example)

Okay, I've got a pretty straight-forward example for you. I'll go through step by step how I'd handle an Avatar who wants to create a Shielding Ring.

First step is to create the ring. I fall back to Mechanics and Metallurgy. Although I would definitely allow the cross-feed from Creativity here because it's jewelry. (If you read the Ability description for creativity, it cross feeds 10% of its own score to 9 other different abilities!!!) I use the sell price of extraordinary objects as a guide to setting material cost from LML pg 13. The material cost will be roughly one-third the sell value. I'd set that base value (the one that varies between $1k and $10k) to being ten. This will be multiplied according to the potency of the ring.

The multiplier will be 1 for each 1 point of Armor Protection value plus 1 for each attacker the ring can defend against. So a "Good" grade shielding ring that offers 4 AP vs 3 opponents will have a multiplier of 7 (4+3). Or $70,000. One third that being roughly $23,500. That's the material cost for the ring itself. Note that this is no guarantee the ring will be of "Good" grade. That is it's maximum potential based on the materials used. Again, my own adjudication of things.

Creating the item thusly can be outsourced to a gemner/jeweler, however it must be a special sort who possesses Metallurgy Ability. The cost of hiring such an individual would be at least 3-5 times that for hiring an ordinary jeweler. 6-8 times for the master work that must go into a ring that is to be made of Supernatural Grade, and 9-12 times for one a ring with the capacity for holding Extreme+ or Extreme++ power. The jeweler must craft the ring from scratch out of precious metal, silver, gold, or platinum, and gemner must cut the stone or stones to be set into the ring. All of this work must be flawless. This requires 1 to 3 weeks each for the ring and the stone depending on whether it is to be preternatural (1 week), supernatural (2 weeks), or beyond extreme in grade (3 weeks), plus one final check to set the stone into the ring. One check per week is required. A single failure means the process must begin again (though a failure on the stone does not set back the ring and vice versa, though a failure on the final setting would require both begin from scratch!).

That covers step 1. Once the physical ring is created, then it must be enchanted. This is where powers are activated on the ring. The following Enchantment powers are required for making an Extraordinary object:
1. Amalgamate Vegetable Energies
2. Bestow Animal Energies
3. Combine Mineral Energies
4. Imbue with Extraordinary Power Capacity
5. Imbue With Spirit Entity
6. Implant Power Node
7. Renewing Extraordinary Energization

For this item specifically, there are no animal of vegetable components, so #1 and #2 are not needed. #3 is. Since this item does not store Extraordinary Powers (spells) #4 is not needed. Since it won't contain a spirit, #5 is not necessary. Since it won't store AEPs, #6 is not needed. And since it will not have charges or need to recharge, #7 is not needed. So of those 7 powers, only #3 is necessary. A check will be required to activate this power as would for any power. However, the second check, the one with the penalty mentioned in the power description in LR4AP, that will wait until after the ring is enchanted by those powers most closely resembling the item's final function.

The closest power in my estimation is Personal Armor 1-5/Personal Shielding 1-5. I adjudicate as follows. Personal Armor 1 provides 1 AP to the ring, Personal Armor 2 provides 2, and so on. Personal Shielding 1 provides 6, personal Shielding 2 provides 7, and so on. Whichever power is chosen, it must be successfully activated once per opponent the ring will defend against. 5 times if the ring will defend against all. So to continue with my example of the Good grade Shielding Ring, it requires Personal Armor 5 be activated successfully 3 times. Once that is done, THEN the second check from Combine Mineral Energies is made. Since this is a Good grade item (Grade V), the activator will have to succeed in an enchantment check with a -25 penalty. If this results in failure, you may go back and attempt Combine Mineral Energies again, and once again activate Personal Armor 5 three times, provided you have enough AEPs left to do so.

Once all the casting is done, then the infusement check is made. This is the one I'd previously been referring to as Step 2. I suppose I should have called it Step 3. But this is the one that is made at 10% of Metallurgy plus 5% Enchantment, 5% Learning, and 5% Evaluation. Note, a failure on this one botches the entire thing. But if it succeeds, you've done it!!

QuoteAlso, the Alchemist order and the Rustic skill is another question on its own! (Where do we use it in the create an extraordinary item? Finding the materials?)

Rustic would be analogous to Mechanics in my above example. It's not going to be used in the casting or in the infusing. But it is used in preparing the herbs, oinments, ambrosia, etc to be enchanted.

Quote from: Atsuku Nare;1078626Another question - aside from the abilities of Health, Precision, and Speed, there is an optional 4th ability of Intellect. Does anyone play with this option?

I use it.

It appears under powers like Seduce to Evil. If you don't use Intellect, the avoidance check calls for Speed x2 instead. So I tuck that away. Mentally, for the sake of avoidance rolls, Intellect is roughly equal to Speed x2. So I'll use that for avoidance checks that are strictly mental. I also do an odd thing for Gaze attacks. Avoiding Svetlana's Petrifying Gaze of Animosity, for example, calls for a Speed x3 check for intelligent beings, Speed times 2 for less intelligent ones. Where does that leave Orcs and Oafs? Rather than try and make that judgment call every time it goes up, I just have a standard "Save vs Gaze" I guess you could call it as Intellect plus Speed.

Does anyone know of a good place to get the rulebooks for someone in the UK? I can see lots of auctions but only from the US and it usually costs as much in postage as the item to ship.

Unfortunately Idk much about UK gaming world. But before buying, did you try the Quick Start?

Yes, I've downloaded the quick start. I don't know if I'll ever run it, but I'd be interested in seeing the full core rule set at least.

Quote from: Rithuan;1078587That's awesome! Even without an active community, I think it will be instrumental for new players (out of curiosity or luck) that start reading this game. Even the advice to start with BoL and continue with LML before LR4AP.

I'll talk about something I got out of looking at BoL. And that goes back to what I mentioned about the 5 stats. I began thinking in terms of the 5 stats when I write stat blocks in my notes when I'm preparing an adventure for AD&D. Hit Points, Hit Dice, Movement, Attack (weapon and damage), Defense (AC and armor type). Then optional headers for abilities, including attributes and special class abilities, powers for spell-casters, and then special advantages/disadvantages like a Paladin's protection from Evil and +2 to all saves, or a rangers +1 damage when striking giants.

Having spent time thinking about how to keep stat blocks as brief and useful as possible, I got to using my own format for attack stats. I identify the attack type, followed by a parenthetical note including hit probability and harm range. The hit probability, I actually break up into four numbers which include not just the probability of hitting, but also t he number needed for special success, perfect success, and a fumble/weapon-break roll.

For example, long spear (1/3/35/00, 1-20). This is read as on a roll of 1, it does maximum harm and bypasses armor, on a roll of 2-3 you roll harm as usual but it bypasses armor, on a roll of 4-35 it's a normal hit. On a roll of 36-99 it's a miss, and on a roll of 00 the weapon breaks.

This comes in handy when I go to explain modifiers in LA.


MODIFIERS IN LEJENDARY ADVENTURE

This question has come up a lot in the past. A lot of people observe that LA is not consistent in how their modifiers work. Sometimes a bonus is expressed as a +, sometimes as a -. It's not inconsistent, though, for the most part. There is a distinction in LA between a bonus that increases the probability, and a bonus that deducts from the die roll. The difference is a deduction from the die roll greatly increases the probability for maximum harm bypassing armor roll. Whereas a bonus to probability increases the overall odds of a hit and the odds of a armor bypassing roll.

So suppose the weapon is a cut & thrust sword, which has a 10 weapon precision. I'd write it as:
cut & thrust sword, (1/4/45/007, 4-20)
Note that the 10 bonus to hit probability also raised the probability of an armor bypassing hit by 1%. The 007 in the fumble spot indicates that if a 00 is rolled, a confirming d10 must be rolled, a result of 7 or higher indicates the weapon breaks.

If instead, for some reason, the Avatar has a -5 bonus to the die for hit rolls due to some favorable situation modifier, I would write it like this:
cut & thrust sword, (6/9/50, 4-20)
Note now there is no chance of weapon breakage, because even a roll of 100 would be a 95 after the die decution. Also note a automatic max harm/bypassing armor occurs on a 6 or lower, since subtracting 5 makes it 1 or lower. Normal harm/bypassing armor occurs on a 9, because 9-5 is 4. And the original probability is 45%, so 1/10th of that is 4%. The probability of hitting is 50% because 50-5 is 45 which was the original probability.

The rules are MOSTLY accurate and consistent with regards to which of the modifiers you should use. However, I would always recommend the individual LM apply whichever type of modifier they find most reasonable regardless of whether the rules express it as a + or -.


EXCEPTIONS

A couple of minor exceptions to these modifiers. In combat, a weapon's natural precision adds to the probability (and slightly to the odds of a special success) but does not count towards the Avatar's skill for purposes of determining if multiple attacks are possible, and does not count towards "Weapons over 100" for bonus harm. Extraordinary weapon precision, however, does count towards weapons over 100 (but not skill). It adds to the probability for purposes of determining special success. But it also deducts from the die roll for purposes of affecting hit probability and max harm/armor bypassing rolls, but does not negate the possibility for weapon breakage.

So suppose the spear above is a preternatural spear with 5 extraordinary precision and 3-5 bonus harm. I would write that as:
pret. long spear, (6/9/40/006[15], 1-20 +3-5 pret)
So note that since the modified probability of success is 40%, the odds of a special success is bumped up to 4%. With the 5 point die adjustment, that means the weapon bypasses armor on a 9 or less, and does automatic harm on 6 or less. The weapon breakage number is 006(15). This means if a 00 is rolled on the hit roll, a confirming d10 is rolled, and if that results in a 6 or higher, that indicates a weapon breakage, however the extraordinary power of the weapon gives it a further 15% chance to save against breakage.

Thanks, Lunamancer. Please, keep them coming. I often wondered if there was any difference in using a bonus to the skills (+) or subtracting (-) a value to the roll.

Back when the LA online community was active, it would happen every month or two, someone would say that in Lejendary Adventure you can't defend yourself. Dice to determine whether or not you hit are checked only against the attacker's ability. This really should have never been a criticism but rather a question, of what can LA Avatars do to defend themselves?


DEFENSE IN LEJENDARY ADVENTURE

Contrary the criticism that there is no way to defend yourself in LA, it turns out there are no fewer than 5 different ways to defend yourself.

1) Minstrelsy, Unarmed Combat, and Swashbuckling abilities can improve your Armor Protection, representing dodging and defensive tactics. By shifting harm a number of points to the down side, this means not only can this turn a "hit" into something that causes no harm, it also reduces the impact of anything that does hit.

2) Lucky dodge, generally allowable once per ABC if the defender possesses Luck ability. A successful check dodges the attack entirely.

3) Against both striking and shooting attacks, if you are moving, the attacker has a -5 to hit; -10 if moving rapidly/erratically.

4) Dodging to avoid attacks. This is detailed in Lejend Masters Lore. It's based on Speed BR and if successful dodges the attack entirely.

5) Parrying, also detailed in Lejend Masters Lore. It's based on Weapons Ability. It can fail, it can be a partial success negating some harm, it could be a full success, blocking the attack entirely or negating all harm, it can also result in a full parry and counter-attack.


#1 and #2 depend on having the listed abilities.
#3 doesn't reference any abilities at all and any Avatar can do it.
#4 uses a Base Rating and any Avatar can do it.
#5 uses combat skill and any Avatar can do it.
#1 and #5 can partially mitigate an attack. They're not "all or nothing."
#2, #4, and #5 involve counter-rolls.
#1 and #3 are D&D-like in that they shift the target numbers needed "to hit" (#3) or to penetrate armor (#1)
#1 and #2 do not cost you an attack or action; #3 might in some cases, might not in others; #5 uses one attack, #4 uses your actions for the ABC


The point is, there are more ways to defend yourself in LA than most other RPGs. And just about any sort of "defense" mechanic you can think of, you can find somewhere in LA. Of all criticisms, this one had to be furthest off base.


Edit: There's another obscure one. Also based on Speed. Also available for all Avatars. But it's only a rare case type of thing. Any attack that causes over 51 harm allows the Avatar a disaster avoidance check. If the d% roll is less than Speed x4, the harm is reduced by half. If under Speed x2, harm is avoided entirely. This is something to keep in mind when you're a high ranking soldier--harm accumulates VERY quickly when weapons exceeds 100. Or if you're a Noble Order Avatar with the generous Harm bonus Chivalry offers. Huge harm bonuses can actually be liabilities when they start to trip this odd rule. High rank soldiers can mitigate it if they themselves have high enough Speed that allows them multiple attacks. The attack penalty reduces the weapons-over-100 harm bonus, which effectively redistributes the harm bonus over multiple attacks, keeping any single attack from tripping the rule.

An amazing post, as usual. I think there is an optional way described in Lejends Magazine, using the Weapon value of your opponent as a penalty to your roll. Somehow, used as a way to reflect that is not the same to attack a regular villager or a trained knight.

Quote from: Rithuan;1079708An amazing post, as usual. I think there is an optional way described in Lejends Magazine, using the Weapon value of your opponent as a penalty to your roll. Somehow, used as a way to reflect that is not the same to attack a regular villager or a trained knight.

It's something that was discussed in length back in the day on the LA forums. I was never crazy about this sort of rule. I felt LA already has plenty of modes of defense. None of them burden down the game with extra calculations. They all require some level of player engagement to put them in play.

Here's another one that gets asked a lot.

What is the difference between Hunt and Ranging? Or Savagery for that matter? Aside from being based on different BRs?

So what I did was went straight to the Ability descriptions. Not changing anything or making judgment calls. Just based on what is written, here's how I break down the comparison:

Here's where the three are similar:

• Hunt includes hunting afoot and/or mounted and locating game animals. Ranging includes poaching and locating game animals. Savagery includes hunting & fishing.
• Hunt includes woodcraft. Ranging includes outdoors craft. Savagery includes crafting necessities and weapons.
• Hunt includes survival. Ranging includes survival in the outdoors. Savagery includes survival in forests.
• Hunt and ranging both include camouflage and concealment in woods. Savagery includes camouflage and concealment (no "in woods" qualifier).

Areas where two abilities out of three provide skill:

• Hunt and Ranging both include the ability to avoid being surprised in an encounter. Savagery does not.
• Ranging includes skill at deadfalls, pits, traps, and trapping. Savagery includes snares, deadfalls, pits, traps, etc. Hunt has no similar ability.
• Hunt allows for recognition of flora and fauna. Savagery allows for recognition of native flora and fauna. Ranging has no similar ability.

And here's where the abilities are most different:

• Hunt includes the chase and tracking.
• Ranging includes surprise an individual or group, hazardous travel, scouting, scavenging, and smuggling.
• Savagery includes knowledge of forest tribes, primitive living in forests, +1 to hit and harm with weapons for each 10 points possessed

There are also differences per the LML section on Ability-related activities.

• All three provide skill in the following activities: basic climbing, hanging/holding on, jumping, running, swimming, swinging, basic brachiating
• Hunt and Ranging but not Savagery provide skill in: riding
• Ranging and Savagery but not Hunt provide skill in: advanced climbing, diving, and advanced brachiating

Finally, I can sit down with a coffee and review this complete post. Thanks again for your time Lunamancer.

I re-read it, and I have some follow up questions:

Quote from: Lunamancer;1078651That covers step 1. Once the physical ring is created, then it must be enchanted. This is where powers are activated on the ring. The following Enchantment powers are required for making an Extraordinary object:
1. Amalgamate Vegetable Energies
2. Bestow Animal Energies
3. Combine Mineral Energies
4. Imbue with Extraordinary Power Capacity
5. Imbue With Spirit Entity
6. Implant Power Node
7. Renewing Extraordinary Energization

For this item specifically, there are no animal of vegetable components, so #1 and #2 are not needed. #3 is. Since this item does not store Extraordinary Powers (spells) #4 is not needed. Since it won't contain a spirit, #5 is not necessary. Since it won't store AEPs, #6 is not needed. And since it will not have charges or need to recharge, #7 is not needed. So of those 7 powers, only #3 is necessary. A check will be required to activate this power as would for any power. However, the second check, the one with the penalty mentioned in the power description in LR4AP, that will wait until after the ring is enchanted by those powers most closely resembling the item's final function.

So, these 3 powers (Amalgamate Vegetable Energies, Bestow Animal Energies, Combine Mineral Energies) affect only 1 pint / 1 pound of material. For the ring, one successful cast should be enough.

My confusion starts here:

Imbue with extraordinary Power Capacity (p79): Strong, VII:  Allows to hold additional power. Does not explain what means by additional (1 or more).  It lasts only 1 day. To my understanding, this is the activation that allows holding extraordinary powers. (This reminds me AD&D 2nd, btw).

Implant Power Node (p79): Strong, VII: Holds a power permanently. It requires a second check at the end. Of course, at this point we need 2 second-check at the end... which is confusing

Renewing Extraordinary Energization (p90): Strong, VII: The object can work more than once. Requires "Implant Power Node." This might not be required.

QuoteThe closest power in my estimation is Personal Armor 1-5/Personal Shielding 1-5. I adjudicate as follows. Personal Armor 1 provides 1 AP to the ring, Personal Armor 2 provides 2, and so on. Personal Shielding 1 provides 6, personal Shielding 2 provides 7, and so on. Whichever power is chosen, it must be successfully activated once per opponent the ring will defend against. 5 times if the ring will defend against all. So to continue with my example of the Good grade Shielding Ring, it requires Personal Armor 5 be activated successfully 3 times.

This section is really interesting way to solve it.

QuoteOnce that is done, THEN the second check from Combine Mineral Energies is made. Since this is a Good grade item (Grade V), the activator will have to succeed in an enchantment check with a -25 penalty. If this results in failure, you may go back and attempt Combine Mineral Energies again, and once again activate Personal Armor 5 three times, provided you have enough AEPs left to do so.

This is where we might need a second, second-check (:confused:) for Implant Power Node.

QuoteOnce all the casting is done, then the infusement check is made. This is the one I'd previously been referring to as Step 2. I suppose I should have called it Step 3. But this is the one that is made at 10% of Metallurgy plus 5% Enchantment, 5% Learning, and 5% Evaluation. Note, a failure on this one botches the entire thing. But if it succeeds, you've done it!!

This might be me and my english as second language, but on this part what it means is 10% of Metallurgy skill plus 5% (Enchantment, Learning, Evaluation and Mechanics): That 5% is from the skill, or is a set 5%? For example if you have 50% learning, do you ad 2.5% or 5% to the roll?

As an additional comment, create an activation is much easier than create an extraordinary object. Not a complaint. On the contrary, I think is by design.

QuoteRustic would be analogous to Mechanics in my above example. It's not going to be used in the casting or in the infusing. But it is used in preparing the herbs, oinments, ambrosia, etc to be enchanted.

Makes perfect sense. No need to include it in the cration roll. Thank you

This is what I think of the whole create an extraordinary object:

If you are doing only a preternatural weapon, with additional damage, or armor with extra protection, you just need "Combine Mineral Energies."
But if this is a ring that emulates a protection spells, you would need the additional activations:

"Imbue with extraordinary Power Capacity" -> hold that power (one day)
"Implant Power Node" -> hold that power (permanently)
"Renewing Extraordinary Energization" -> To use that power more than once. How many times? I see the LML has several variations on this rule

Some swords have a permanent effect of fire damage, while some other objects can create effects once every 24 hrs or 7 days.
Having 2 second checks and how to limit the time of the uses (or how to determine the number of charges), Is part of the challenge. What do you think?

Quote from: Rithuan;1079995So, these 3 powers (Amalgamate Vegetable Energies, Bestow Animal Energies, Combine Mineral Energies) affect only 1 pint / 1 pound of material. For the ring, one successful cast should be enough.

That is correct, and since the ring is only mineral composition, it only requires that one, not the other two.

QuoteImbue with extraordinary Power Capacity (p79): Strong, VII:  Allows to hold additional power. Does not explain what means by additional (1 or more).  It lasts only 1 day. To my understanding, this is the activation that allows holding extraordinary powers. (This reminds me AD&D 2nd, btw).

1 or more. One activation is sufficient. Then you have a 24 hour window (1 day) to place as many additional powers into it as you can. A couple months ago, my Mage Avatar acquired a Preternatural Wand that contained 5 powers. So to create that wand, you'd have to use Imbue with Extraordinary Power Capacity, then successfully activate the 5 powers within the 24 hour time frame--that limits how much you can rest up to recover AEPs to retry or to load on additional powers.

QuoteImplant Power Node (p79): Strong, VII: Holds a power permanently. It requires a second check at the end. Of course, at this point we need 2 second-check at the end... which is confusing

The wand I found didn't need this power because the powers the wand holds vanish once used. The wand then needs to be re-loaded by activating the 5 powers into the wand, presumably during down time. If I don't have the activation, I can't reload the power. It kind of works like spell memorization in D&D. So Impland Power Node would be needed if you wanted to create a wand where the powers don't disappear and have their own AEP supply within the wand. This would make it similar to the wands in D&D, where they have a limited number of charges, and when they run out the wand needs to be re-charged.

QuoteRenewing Extraordinary Energization (p90): Strong, VII: The object can work more than once. Requires "Implant Power Node." This might not be required.

A lot of the items that require charges in Lejendary Adventure re-charge themselves. This power is required to create items like that. My Avatar also has a Wand of Shooting Stars, this has 7 charges which renew daily. This power was needed to create that wand.

QuoteThis section is really interesting way to solve it.

That part is not necessarily in the rules. It's where the Lejend Master must use judgment.  There's nothing in the rules saying Personal Armor or Personal Shielding is required to make a shielding ring. I like this sort of idea because  different Mages will be able to create different items depending upon which powers they know. In this case, it's usually going to take more powerful mages to create the more powerful items due to failed checks and AEP limitation.

QuoteThis is where we might need a second, second-check (:confused:) for Implant Power Node.

It's just one second-check. The reason it has to come later in the example I used is because we have to know what Grade the item will be to know what the penalty on the second check will be. It might be that I set out to make a Good grade ring but botched a lot of the personal armor V rolls, and so it defends against fewer opponents making it a lower grade. That would mean a lesser penalty here. Another point in delaying the second check until this point is, if the second check fails, it means having to recast all those Personal Armors again. The prudent mage thus will not make the most powerful items they can possibly muster. They will be more humble in their endeavors. If this check fails, they have enough AEPs to give it another try.

QuoteThis might be me and my english as second language, but on this part what it means is 10% of Metallurgy skill plus 5% (Enchantment, Learning, Evaluation and Mechanics): That 5% is from the skill, or is a set 5%? For example if you have 50% learning, do you ad 2.5% or 5% to the roll?

2.5%. I should note, LA does not instruct you what to do with fractional points. I usually just round down. Some generous LMs might round up. Others might keep all fractions, rounding only after they are totaled. And I've even heard of a few LMs who keep the fraction as well and roll an extra d10 to dice it.

QuoteIf you are doing only a preternatural weapon, with additional damage, or armor with extra protection, you just need "Combine Mineral Energies."
But if this is a ring that emulates a protection spells, you would need the additional activations:

That is entirely up to the LM. I require the additional activations to make it more difficult and to differentiate Joe the Mage from Fred the Mage in that, if they know different powers, they can create different items. I would probably require activations of Acuity and Strength to create an extraordinary weapon, with additional AEP investment to match Precision and Harm bonuses the Avatar hopes to achieve. For the lowest grade preternatural weapons, a mere Weapon Wizard might suffice. Alternatively, you might also simply require multiple Weapon Wizard activations rather than Acuity and/or Strength. It's entirely up to the LM.

Quote"Imbue with extraordinary Power Capacity" -> hold that power (one day)
"Implant Power Node" -> hold that power (permanently)
"Renewing Extraordinary Energization" -> To use that power more than once. How many times? I see the LML has several variations on this rule

Some swords have a permanent effect of fire damage, while some other objects can create effects once every 24 hrs or 7 days.

A flame sword immediately springs to mind the Geourgy power Unquenchable Flambeau. That one is spot on. So I might require Geourgy Ability to create a flame sword. If so done, it would not require any of those three powers. It would merely be an extra step in the process of making an extraordinary sword (see my immediate preceding comment on hos this is left entirely up to the LM).

As to how often an item created with Renewing Extraordinary Energization self-charges, I generally assume items being crafted will be one of the ones found in Lejend Masters Lore, and so whatever is listed there is what I go with. If the activator is doing something different, I look for the most similar item. If there's nothing similar, I consider three things. What is appropriate for the game? I don't want it to be useless, but also don't want it to be world-breaking. Somewhere within that range, then, I'm asking what is most thematically appropriate for the item? And what is appropriate for the item Grade? If I find there are multiple appropriate answers, I might tweak the process of creating it, adding power requirements, so more powerful mages can create a version that regenerates more quickly (and/or holds more charges in the first place), while lesser mages create lesser versions of the item.

As always, an interesting post.
With these 3 examples, I guess my problem remains how to rule specific steps and conciliate others spells.

Without "Implant Power Node," I would consider that the "Preternatural Wand that contained 5 powers" would lose their powers after 24 hrs. With the "Implant Power Node," it could retain the powers permanently. With "Renewing Extraordinary Energization" it could regain the powers after some days or hours.
Of course, this open unanswered questions for me as well (I don't have this figure out):

1.- For a "Preternatural Wand that contained 5 powers", how do you rule how many powers can hold? "Imbue with Extraordinary Power Capacity" does not specify how many can be stored.
2.- For the "Wand of Shooting Stars, this has 7 charges" that renew daily. If you use Renewing "Extraordinary Energization," How do you rule if it takes 7 days per charge or 24hrs per charge?

I guess point one and two will be in the hands of the Lejend Master. From that point, I completely agree with your assessment. This excerpt is gold:

QuoteAs to how often an item created with Renewing Extraordinary Energization self-charges, I generally assume items being crafted will be one of the ones found in Lejend Masters Lore, and so whatever is listed there is what I go with. If the activator is doing something different, I look for the most similar item. If there's nothing similar, I consider three things. What is appropriate for the game? I don't want it to be useless, but also don't want it to be world-breaking. Somewhere within that range, then, I'm asking what is most thematically appropriate for the item? And what is appropriate for the item Grade? If I find there are multiple appropriate answers, I might tweak the process of creating it, adding power requirements, so more powerful mages can create a version that regenerates more quickly (and/or holds more charges in the first place), while lesser mages create lesser versions of the item.

The gears in my head are still working on this, but in the meantime, I have a follow-up question. You mentioned in this thread that you favor the creation of temporary extraordinary objects. What rules do you apply? I'm interested in alchemia and the Alchemist Order depicted in Lejends magazine.

I have reviewed some of the one-use items in the LML, and there are several interesting objects that could be replicated by an Alchemist.
Flashy Performance Sphere LML p57 (potions for boost stats)
Preternatural Fungi LMLp58
Garage's Eggs LML p59 (bombs)
Hand Ammunition Crystals, LML p62

Quote from: Rithuan;1080824Preternatural Fungi

That is so going to be the name of a band I start.

Quote from: Atsuku Nare;1081022That is so going to be the name of a band I start.

LOL. Indeed the names in this game are out of this world.

Quote from: Rithuan;1080824Without "Implant Power Node," I would consider that the "Preternatural Wand that contained 5 powers" would lose their powers after 24 hrs. With the "Implant Power Node," it could retain the powers permanently. With "Renewing Extraordinary Energization" it could regain the powers after some days or hours.

Here is the description of Imbue With Extraordinary Power Capacity,

"This is a supernatural Power necessary for the use of Metallurgy and/or Alchemia Ability when creating an Extraordinary item. When successfully accomplished, the object can then accept and hold additional Powers. However, the enchantment lasts only for one day, and unless some other Power has been placed in the object, this energy then dissipates, and another like enchantment must be successfully placed upon it at a later date if it is to become extraordinary."

So what this power does is allow you to place Extraordinary Powers ("spells") onto an item. This power lasts 24 hours. So that's the window you have in which to place "some other Power". If you don't do that, then this magic itself dissipates. But if you do place "some other Power" then you're good. There's no 24 hour time limit then. So if you're creating a wand, you can activate Imbue and then, say, 5 additional powers within the 24 hour window, and then those are the additional powers the wand will keep. No time limit. However, without an Implant Power Node, the powers will vanish once used as they have no "permanent housing", and without Renewing Extraordinary Energization, the user of the wand must provide the AEPs. The wand itself is essentially little more than a tool, providing an activation bonus when one of the 5 powers are activated using the wand, much like using a sword may provide a precision bonus to hit.

You can certainly require that a wand also requires Implant Power Node, so even those powers are spent, they have that permanent housing to be recharged. I choose to make it easier for stylistic reasons. I want Mages to use wands as their main go-to's. Take the 15-20 powers you begin with and boil that down to about 5 that you will use most frequently. When you have to make a quick decision, you're thinking of which of 5 things to use. And gain a 20% bonus to activating them. Why not? Your Noble counterpart is getting a 20% bonus if he's using a Thrusting Sword. And he's probably only carrying 5 different weapons at most to choose from in a fight. Fair is fair.

Quote1.- For a "Preternatural Wand that contained 5 powers", how do you rule how many powers can hold? "Imbue with Extraordinary Power Capacity" does not specify how many can be stored.

It's limited by what the mage can successfully activate within the 24 hour window. Consider an enchanter who attempts to place 5 "Good" grade activations onto the wand. That's 30 AEPs right there. If half of the activations fail and must be activated, that actually brings the cost to 60. Plus 8 AEPs to activate Imbue. 16 if you are only successful on the second try. That's 76 AEPs right there. That's about the limit of what most mages will possess until they get very powerful. (My own Mage who possesses the wands has an Enchantment Ability of 68, Arcana of 50, and Speed BR of 17, for an AEP total of 79.)

Quote2.- For the "Wand of Shooting Stars, this has 7 charges" that renew daily. If you use Renewing "Extraordinary Energization," How do you rule if it takes 7 days per charge or 24hrs per charge?

If you were creating a wand of Shooting Stars in my campaign, I'd rule it recharges daily rather than weekly simply because the Wand of Shooting Stars listed in the LML recharges daily rather than weekly. It only becomes a question if you're making a totally unique item.

QuoteI guess point one and two will be in the hands of the Lejend Master. From that point, I completely agree with your assessment. This excerpt is gold:

Glad you liked that. I could have just as easily said it's LM's discretion. But I attempted to introspect upon my own thought process when I make these judgment calls. After I posted that excerpt, I realized something. It correlates really well, albeit a bit loosely, to an excerpt from Gary Gygax's afterword in the 1E DMG:

"BY ORDERING THINGS AS THEY SHOULD BE, THE GAME AS A WHOLE FIRST, YOUR CAMPAIGN NEXT, AND YOUR PARTICIPANTS THEREAFTER, YOU WILL BE PLAYING ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS AS IT WAS MEANT TO BE."

Some people have balked at this--DMs who consider their own house rules superior to the standards set forth in the rulebook. And fair enough. They're within their rights. It's just like, okay, now that you have that right to house rule any way you choose, how are you going to use it so that the end result is actually something good that people will want to play, and that will be playable again and again? Obviously it takes sound judgment. And sound judgment just happens to look a hell of a lot like the "holy trinity" Gary spells out. That's what sound judgment looked like even when I was playing a totally different RPG over which AD&D's rules have zero sway or relevance. It's simply a good guide, period.

QuoteThe gears in my head are still working on this, but in the meantime, I have a follow-up question. You mentioned in this thread that you favor the creation of temporary extraordinary objects. What rules do you apply? I'm interested in alchemia and the Alchemist Order depicted in Lejends magazine.

I would keep the process as simple as possible. Like with Preternatural Fungi, the trick would be preparing the environment that allows the fungi to grow. This is going to require some extraordinary power. But it's going to rely more heavily on odd ingredients. So these are the sorts of things lower level mages would be putting together. Their power isn't so great that they're above the menial task of gathering odd ingredients. Old crones and forest hags who have little else to do with their time will be able to create this items without having to be great mages. Since there isn't a high skill requirement, these items will be as common as needed to meet player demand, and the demands of your NACs as well.

Quote from: Atsuku Nare;1081022That is so going to be the name of a band I start.

You should have held out for the specific names of the individual fungi. Like Blue Speed Fungus would make a great band name.

Thanks for the additional examples. Now I understand the logic behind Imbue With Extraordinary Power Capacity. It makes perfect sense what you explained

Quote from: Lunamancer;1081179I would keep the process as simple as possible. Like with Preternatural Fungi, the trick would be preparing the environment that allows the fungi to grow. This is going to require some extraordinary power. But it's going to rely more heavily on odd ingredients. So these are the sorts of things lower level mages would be putting together. Their power isn't so great that they're above the menial task of gathering odd ingredients. Old crones and forest hags who have little else to do with their time will be able to create these items without having to be great mages. Since there isn't a high skill requirement, these items will be as common as needed to meet player demand, and the demands of your NACs as well.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. I was wondering for an Avatar who wants to create expendable or consumable extraordinary items. The process is really tough, especially the roll for creating an object: If you take 10% of Metallurgy (or Alchemy for consumable items) skill plus 5% Enchantment, Learning, Evaluation, and Metallurgy (not considering Mechanics), you have a base possibility of 30% if you have 5 skills at 100%. I understand this could apply for a permanent and powerful object, but I think it is an overkill for an expendable item. What do you think about it?

Also, it does not consider the Rustic skill, but you already mentioned that it was involved early in the process of selection of the components.

Quote from: Rithuan;1081784Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. I was wondering for an Avatar who wants to create expendable or consumable extraordinary items. The process is really tough, especially the roll for creating an object: If you take 10% of Metallurgy (or Alchemy for consumable items) skill plus 5% Enchantment, Learning, Evaluation, and Metallurgy (not considering Mechanics), you have a base possibility of 30% if you have 5 skills at 100%. I understand this could apply for a permanent and powerful object, but I think it is an overkill for an expendable item. What do you think about it?

What if instead of just one at a time, you get several at once? Remember, LML's random item table is organized by grade and for many of the limited use items, the LML often assumes several will be found at one time, and I think that plays a role in the item's grade. If you're making fewer than suggested in the LML, it would constitute a lower grade item. I don't necessarily want to make these easy for Avatars. A lot of the limited-use items in LA are very potent.

QuoteAlso, it does not consider the Rustic skill, but you already mentioned that it was involved early in the process of selection of the components.

Right. But that can still play a bigger role. An Avatar is going to have to run around getting all sorts of exotic ingredients to make the items. A herbalist/healer NAC who makes health boluses often will probably have put together an herb garden that will produce 80% of the ingredients they need. Of the remaining 20%, I'd assume 80% of those can be obtained through trade. So it's only the final 4% that needs to be sought out. Making them in some sense 25 times more efficient than Avatars at making limited-use items. However, to have the garden requires a certain amount of up-front investment and would certainly require Rustic ability to maintain.

I noticed the number of items encountered. It's an interesting way to balance the hard difficulty with a low grade and a high number of items. Maybe an alchemist in question could choose to create fewer boluses of health (with the same amount of resources) for a small bonus (in LA, a -% to the roll. I know. it's hard to keep track)

Regarding the idea of keeping a herb garden, that's an interesting way to invest gold. Every Avatar may want to invest a few coins on that.

I'm running out of questions here! I have one regarding Panprobability (for our readers, it's like extraplanar knowledge skill for LA). Have you ever use it in a game? I have found one example in one adventure from Gary, where he mentioned that it might be used to open a portal to another pan (or plane) in a particular magic place. What the adventure explain is that the portal exists, but require this specific skill to open it.

It's a strange skill that, as far as I understand, is not magical by nature (since it provides Health instead of Speed bonus). I think it might work similar to Legend of Zelda when you cross to the Dark World.

Quote from: Rithuan;1082847I noticed the number of items encountered. It's an interesting way to balance the hard difficulty with a low grade and a high number of items. Maybe an alchemist in question could choose to create fewer boluses of health (with the same amount of resources) for a small bonus (in LA, a -% to the roll. I know. it's hard to keep track)

Yes, the LM is always free to apply a modifier, positive or negative. Activating a power under very favorable conditions is good for a 30 to 50 point bonus. For purposes of enchanting items, I'd make the exact bonus dependent upon the quality of the laboratory. It should be a far out, laboratory-of-your-dreams to get the 50 point bonus. But one that meets adequate guidelines (and here I'd look to the AD&D 1E DMG for guidance--the mandatory labs there are still very expensive) is always can always justify a 30 point boost.

QuoteRegarding the idea of keeping a herb garden, that's an interesting way to invest gold. Every Avatar may want to invest a few coins on that.

It's possible. I imagine this more for NACs. They are more able to tend to the garden due to not being dragged off on adventures every couple of weeks. But in any case, keep in mind my statement above. The quality of such a garden may determine a bonus chance to help the Alchemist out.

QuoteI'm running out of questions here! I have one regarding Panprobability (for our readers, it's like extraplanar knowledge skill for LA). Have you ever use it in a game? I have found one example in one adventure from Gary, where he mentioned that it might be used to open a portal to another pan (or plane) in a particular magic place. What the adventure explain is that the portal exists, but require this specific skill to open it.

It's a strange skill that, as far as I understand, is not magical by nature (since it provides Health instead of Speed bonus). I think it might work similar to Legend of Zelda when you cross to the Dark World.

I'm not going to name which one so that I may utter spoilers freely, but there is an adventure where the first player to guess the topography of the alternate dimension they got sent to gets a few free points of Panprobability--gaining it as a new Ability if not previously possessed.

Beyond that, it's absolutely needed for "independent travel to any other-dimensional matrix not guided by a specific device for transportation there"--in other words, portals MAY transport individuals freely. But if an Avatar uses a power that allows them to travel to an alternate dimension, they absolutely need this Ability to do so successfully. As for portals that require the ability, magic portals are part of the world and you can make any rule for them you like.

In wilderness travel, you might require the occasional "survival" check (based on hunt, ranging, or savagery perhaps). If you wish to require similar checks while plane-hopping, Panprobability is your go-to.

I also allow it to help detect and identify dimensional anomalies. I think of that episode of the Twilight Zone when the little girl gets trapped in the wall and her father calls over his mathematician friend who knows how these things work. That guy's got panprobability.

I wrote an adventure that featured a Void Spider. Its webs are anchored in alternate dimensions. Nodes allow access to alternate worlds. My adventure included some very harsh destinations that would straight out kill Avatars. So to give a fair fighting chance, i allowed Panprobability to give the Avatar some hint or guess that the note leads someplace inhospitable.

Thanks again for your reply.
I know it is lazy to ask this kind of questions, but did you ever had a player with an Avatar using two weapons for attack or block? Does slow things down to much? I really like the damage reduction granted by block, even if you fail blocking the attack (but you have success in the "block" action).

Quote from: Rithuan;1083491Thanks again for your reply.
I know it is lazy to ask this kind of questions, but did you ever had a player with an Avatar using two weapons for attack or block? Does slow things down to much? I really like the damage reduction granted by block, even if you fail blocking the attack (but you have success in the "block" action).

Yeah, the parrying rules are really cool. I remember my very first impression of them is that it solves the great flaw I saw in the parrying rules of most other RPGs--namely, that no matter how good you are, sooner or later an attack is going to get through, so it's a losing strategy in a duel. LA fixes it by inserting the probability for counter attacks. I've also begun applying the parry rule to giants for the purposes of catching siege missiles directed at them. A partial parry indicates some harm mitigation. But a full parry indicates the giant has caught the missile and then can hurl it back on their next turn.

It's a favorite tactic for Noble Avatars. Which Chivalry and Weapons as their first two abilities, they have very high probabilities of parry and riposte. The trick is to win initiative so you can have the parry option--or else get Minstrelsy ability (or Swashbuckling if you have that expansion) at 31+ with adjusted Speed 13+ so you can take the parry option even when losing initiative. One way to help winning initiative is to use a pole arm so you can gain first strike on the first ABC, deferring your attack to parry. It's almost like you're using the pole arm to keep the enemy at bay.

Quote from: Lunamancer;1083518I've also begun applying the parry rule to giants for the purposes of catching siege missiles directed at them. A partial parry indicates some harm mitigation. But a full parry indicates the giant has caught the missile and then can hurl it back on their next turn.

That's just awesome.

QuoteIt's a favorite tactic for Noble Avatars. Which Chivalry and Weapons as their first two abilities, they have very high probabilities of parry and riposte. The trick is to win initiative so you can have the parry option--or else get Minstrelsy ability (or Swashbuckling if you have that expansion) at 31+ with adjusted Speed 13+ so you can take the parry option even when losing initiative. One way to help winning initiative is to use a pole arm so you can gain first strike on the first ABC, deferring your attack to parry. It's almost like you're using the pole arm to keep the enemy at bay.

That's an excellent overview of the process of how parry and riposte work with different abilities. The thing I didn't know (or frankly, I didn't understand) was how the long weapons gain first strike. Could you elaborate more on that? I recall when I read it, it explained that longer weapons attack and shorter counter attacks, but it always sounds to me more a flavor text than an actual mechanic.

Quote from: Rithuan;1083740The thing I didn't know (or frankly, I didn't understand) was how the long weapons gain first strike. Could you elaborate more on that? I recall when I read it, it explained that longer weapons attack and shorter counter attacks, but it always sounds to me more a flavor text than an actual mechanic.

May as well do a whole bit on initiative. So here are the bits on weapon length:

Quote from: LR4AP, pg 187The Game Master may wish to consider the length of the weapons involved and other details of circumstance.

Quote from: LR4AP, pg 195The weapon with the higher rating (length) strikes first when at maximum range from the opponent and last in the event the shorter weapon is within striking range--this indicating the shorter-ranged weapon wielder has closed the range. However, the wielder of the longer weapon can, after striking second, move back to extend the range again. This provides a pattern of combat along these lines:
Long weapon attacks and short weapon counterattacks; short weapon attacks and long weapon counter-attacks while moving back; long weapon now attacks again, and so forth.

Quote from: LML, pg 124Of course a weapon set to impale will strike automatically upon the opponent's attack, regardless of the initiative and before the attack, if of longer reach than the attacker's weapon(s).

So here's the big picture on initiative in LA. First, officially, it's entirely up to the LM. The LM is instructed to use any system appropriate to the style of the campaign. But there is a "default" system laid down as follows.

The simple version is, it's "group" initiative determined by each side rolling d10. You can either go with higher is better or lower is better. Speed BR is the tie-breaker.

The suggested system for large groups is each side rolls d10. If you're playing higher is better, each individual adds their Speed BR to their side's initiative roll. If you're playing lower die roll is better, the winning side (with the lower die roll) adds the positive difference of the two initiative rolls to Speed BR. Whether high is good or low is good for the roll, initiative counts down from highest (adjusted) speed to lowest.

In single combat between humans or human-like creatures, weapon speed is a factor. It is deducted from the Avatar's speed.

Weapon length trumps these systems I have outlined per the above quotes. Namely:
1. When combatants are at the longer weapon's maximum range,
2. When the longer weapon is set to impale,
3. Any other circumstance where the GM feels it's appropriate to account for weapon length

As for timing, the "better" initiatives act on the first second of the ABC, the "worse" ones act on the last second of the ABC. The middling results act on the second second. How exactly to determine this is left to the GM. A couple of possible ways that come to my mind is you can say the fastest third go on the first second, the next fastest third on the second second, and the slowest third go on the last second. Or you could do it by initiative number rather than relative ordinal value.

Where activations are concerned, they are assumed to begin "on initiative" and end as determined by their activation time.

It took me a while to sit down and meditate these rules and your explanation. But thanks to your quotes and explanation, it's clear. For our readers, the last quote is from page 126 of LML.

I have some questions regarding merits and mentors, but I'll need to take time to formulate them. I'll keep you posted.

Hello Again,

I'm back with one more question regarding merits. The details on how to increase and gain abilities really snuck up on me.  Because... this is lejendary adventure! You don't just expend merits (or XP) and increase skills. Don't be silly.

So, the first distinction is that skills are divided into four categories, regarding how can you learn it: by yourself or with training and study.

Immediately Gained Abilities:
Self-Trained Abilities:
Outside-Training Required Abilities: You roll under 10% of the related BR
Special-Training Required Abilities


Q1:
Immediately Gained Abilities and Self-Trained Abilities, you can spend merits directly and gain them at 20%. Is this correct?

Q2:
Some abilities require a roll. Outside-Training Required Abilities: You roll under 10% of the related BR.

However, for Special-Training Required Abilities you roll under 10% of the related BR, per day dedicated to training. For example, 3 days means 30% of your BR. Is this accurate? It seems that learning activations and powers are easier and faster than training other skills.

Quote from: Rithuan;1087383Hello Again,

I'm back with one more question regarding merits. The details on how to increase and gain abilities really snuck up on me.  Because... this is lejendary adventure! You don't just expend merits (or XP) and increase skills. Don't be silly.

So we have two different things here. Increasing abilities already possessed. And gaining new abilities.


Increasing abilities pretty much just is spending merits. You just have to spend at least one ability specific merit for every 25 general merits. For example, raising an Ability score from 45 to 46 requires 250 merits. You can raise it by spending 10 ability specific merits plus 240 general merits.

Training (on a daily basis) allows the Avatar to the ability without the requisite minimum of ability specific merits. This can be self-training, which requires a successful ability check for each point to be gained (a special success allows for 2 points to be gained), or training under a mentor, which requires payment to a mentor with at least twice the score in the ability the Avatar is attempting to increase. The rules list no probability for success in this, you may assume it works automatically without a check. In any case, merits must always be spent to raise ability scores, even if they are only general merits.

Another type of training is intensive training (on a weekly basis). Depending upon the ability and circumstance, this may cost a good sum of money, or may be free. The Avatar might even get paid to learn "on the job." One ability check is made weekly. For each success, the Avatar gains d6x10 ability-specific merits. On a special success, the Avatar will gain a full point in the ability for free. Or gain d4 free ability points if the Ability score is below 31.

Note that Abilities can no longer earn ability-specific merits when they are 76+. Likely daily self-training will be used, as the probability is high that just one day of work will allow advancement in the ability.



When it comes to gaining new abilities, as you note, there are four categories, based on how easy or hard they are to pick up later in life. Gaining new abilities cost 2500 merits, and the new ability begins at 20% of the associated BR (if the BR is speed, you use 20% of speed x4). Note that Outside-Training-Required Abilities specifies 10%. I'm honestly not sure if that is a misprint, or if these abilities really do begin at 10% rather than 20%. I believe it is a misprint, though, and we always play it as 20%.

For the Special-Training-Required abilities, don't be fooled into thinking these are easier to learn than others just because the check is higher. Back on LML pg 113, there is a section "THE INCIDENCE OF EXTRAORDINARY ABILITIES IN GENERAL POPULATIONS." Here it states, as a suggestion, that learning new Extraordinary abilities be made more difficult. That as an additional requirement, an Avatar who did not start with any extraordinary abilities at all would have only a 1% chance per point of Speed of being capable of learning an Extraordinary Ability. Or, if dedicating himself to learning only one specific extraordinary ability, the probability is enhanced to 4% per point of Speed. For Avatars that do begin with an Extraordinary Ability, their probability of learning a second one later is 5% per point of speed, 3% per point of speed for the next one after that, and 1% per point of Speed thereafter.

If the check fails, the Avatar can't have that ability. On a failure, however, the player may opt for a chance at a limited capacity ability. So a second check would be made, and if that one is successful, the Avatar is able to learn the Ability but will only ever be able to perform a single power. The player is allowed to select the power.

One notable exception when learning new abilities. Some Alfar have innate abilities that resemble Abilities in the game. For instance, all Wylfs have the Psychogenic Power "Sensory Acuity" and one other power of their choice. The Grotto Elf sub-race also automatically has the Psychogenic Power "Nictoscopy" always on--that is their means of vision. Lacking the Psychogenic Power, the default check for these functions is Speed x2. If the Wylf later gains Psychogenics, the initial score is not the usual 20% of BR (Speed x4). They get 1 additional point per point of Speed. So a Wylf with 15 Speed (x4 = 60) would gain Psychogenics at 27 rather than 12.

The Kobold has an innate Physique bonus of +2 to +5. So if a Kobold later gains the Physique Ability, the initial score is 10 times the bonus, plus 10% of Health BR. So a Kobold with 50 Health, for example, who begins with a +3 Physique bonus, will gain Physique at 35 rather than the usual 10.

Thanks for the great summary, and pointing out additional examples (and exceptions) of the rules.

So, page 183 of the LR4AP says "all new abilities have a score of 20% of the related base rating."

This page also covers when an Alfar avatar gain an extraordinary ability that he or she already possesses extraordinary activations. In that case, + Speed rating. Thanks for the reminder!

Quote from: Lunamancer;1087436When it comes to gaining new abilities, as you note, there are four categories, based on how easy or hard they are to pick up later in life. Gaining new abilities cost 2500 merits, and the new ability begins at 20% of the associated BR (if the BR is speed, you use 20% of speed x4). Note that Outside-Training-Required Abilities specifies 10%. I'm honestly not sure if that is a misprint, or if these abilities really do begin at 10% rather than 20%. I believe it is a misprint, though, and we always play it as 20%.

Thanks for the clarification. I was trying to figure out what did I miss.  Also, I got confused by the probability to gain an ability and the probability of gaining a new activation. The former it's hard and requires a set time. The later, you have a chance to increase the probability to learn an activation f you spent more time.

Quote from: Lunamancer;1087436For the Special-Training-Required abilities, don't be fooled into thinking these are easier to learn than others just because the check is higher. Back on LML pg 113, there is a section "THE INCIDENCE OF EXTRAORDINARY ABILITIES IN GENERAL POPULATIONS." Here it states, as a suggestion, that learning new Extraordinary abilities be made more difficult. That as an additional requirement, an Avatar who did not start with any extraordinary abilities at all would have only a 1% chance per point of Speed of being capable of learning an Extraordinary Ability. Or, if dedicating himself to learning only one specific extraordinary ability, the probability is enhanced to 4% per point of Speed. For Avatars that do begin with an Extraordinary Ability, their probability of learning a second one later is 5% per point of speed, 3% per point of speed for the next one after that, and 1% per point of Speed thereafter.

If the check fails, the Avatar can't have that ability. On a failure, however, the player may opt for a chance at a limited capacity ability. So a second check would be made, and if that one is successful, the Avatar is able to learn the Ability but will only ever be able to perform a single power. The player is allowed to select the power.

I completely miss that section. That section certainly put things in perspective. Thank you!

Quote from: Lunamancer;1087436One notable exception when learning new abilities. Some Alfar have innate abilities that resemble Abilities in the game. For instance, all Wylfs have the Psychogenic Power "Sensory Acuity" and one other power of their choice. The Grotto Elf sub-race also automatically has the Psychogenic Power "Nictoscopy" always on--that is their means of vision. Lacking the Psychogenic Power, the default check for these functions is Speed x2. If the Wylf later gains Psychogenics, the initial score is not the usual 20% of BR (Speed x4). They get 1 additional point per point of Speed. So a Wylf with 15 Speed (x4 = 60) would gain Psychogenics at 27 rather than 12.

The Kobold has an innate Physique bonus of +2 to +5. So if a Kobold later gains the Physique Ability, the initial score is 10 times the bonus, plus 10% of Health BR. So a Kobold with 50 Health, for example, who begins with a +3 Physique bonus, will gain Physique at 35 rather than the usual 10.

I understood the first example, but I didn't get the second. Would you kindly elaborate on this?

Thank you!

As a side note, I just wanted to comment on how interesting is the mechanics ingrained in the setting. For example, learning by practice and association with people who know.

Regarding learning new activations (or spells), the PC needs to contact new towns and cities, spend time and gold.

Not all the guilds charge the same for their secrets. For example, learning Theurgic magic require a tithe for life (10%)

Quote from: Rithuan;1087881I understood the first example, but I didn't get the second. Would you kindly elaborate on this?

One of the racial bonuses Kobolds get is a Physique bonus of +2-+5, randomly determined at character creation. The kobold does not, and in fact cannot, begin the game with the Physique Ability. The term "Physique bonus" refers not to the Physique ability, but it's just a harm bonus.

If Kobolds were to gain Physique Ability later, by the normal rules it would begin somewhere around 10. Which is only good for a +1 harm bonus. Which is worse than their innate bonus. So instead we have Physique Ability begin at 10 times the Physique bonus, so that the harm bonus remains the same. We add in 10% of Health just so it's a factor, but it's generally not going to be enough to bring the kobold to the next tier of harm bonus.

QuoteAs a side note, I just wanted to comment on how interesting is the mechanics ingrained in the setting. For example, learning by practice and association with people who know.

Regarding learning new activations (or spells), the PC needs to contact new towns and cities, spend time and gold.

Not all the guilds charge the same for their secrets. For example, learning Theurgic magic require a tithe for life (10%)

Absolutely. Also notice each Order has a range of social classes associated with it. This is further supported by the equipment pick system for starting Avatars.

In Dangerous Journeys, the very first step in creating a Heroic Persona is determining background socio-economic class. This has long been a staple of Gygaxian fantasy. When you see how much emphasis he places on it, then you go back to the old AD&D texts, you realize when he included royalty titles in the DMG, when he noted PCs are assumed to begin as freemen or gentlemen, and when he included a stack rank of social levels in the back of one of the greyhawk books, this wasn't just lip service or fluff.

I like LA. And the TLG simple set.

I wonder if anyone has ever gone back to the game and translated all the funky language back into sort of normal role playing terms, things like avatar for character; some of the lingo just takes some of the greatness away from the game in my opinion.

Quote from: soundchaser;1088258I like LA. And the TLG simple set.

I like LA, too, but I found the Hekaforge books far more to my taste than the TLG boxed set. I think it cut a bit *too* much.

I'd like to see the full rules published, again, but I'm not holding my breath for anything out of Gygax Games, at this point.

Quote from: soundchaser;1088258I wonder if anyone has ever gone back to the game and translated all the funky language back into sort of normal role playing terms, things like avatar for character; some of the lingo just takes some of the greatness away from the game in my opinion.

Fun fact. The term is actually "Avatar Character" which may be shortened by calling them Avatars, Characters, or AC's. So just calling them "characters" is perfectly fine as is, without revision. In fact, the glossary at the beginning of LR4AP says "An Avatar is also referred to as a character." You will find it referred to as such in the book. But it turns out that, of the three terms, Avatar is the one that stuck the most.

It reminds me of Gary's Dangerous Journeys game. It got some of the same criticism about term usage. But the game actually used the term "Game Master" in the books. JM, Journey Master, emerged from use by the fans and so got used in the ezines for the game. So using the Term LM/Lejend Master for LA was inevitable anyway.

20 years of hearing complaints about the game terminology, and I still never felt the criticism of its "funky language" ever had much merit to it. I could probably plagiarize the game word for word, republish it under a different name, and you won't hear peep about odd, non-standard jargon. (Nor of purple prose for that matter.) What other strange terms does the game use?

Action Blocks, and Action Block Counts is the worst of it.

Activation Energy? The term was necessary. You can't call it mana or something like that because Psychogenics uses the same system as magic. Which is surely a godsend to people who hated psionics in AD&D.

Speaking of activations, like the term "Avatar" it's not the only official term. They're also referred to as powers. I'm pretty sure they're more often referred to as powers in the core books. Which is even a less jargony than calling them "spells." And powers is a more appropriate term for use with psychogenics. I refer to them as powers. And even in AD&D groups when talking about AD&D I use the term "power" and nobody is ever confused as to what I'm talking about. The term "activation" is still retained because you're not always activating some personal use power. You can also activate an item.

What other odd terms are there? Grade, Rank, and Order? Check your 1E PHB closely. These were the terms originally considered for D&D but they went with calling everything "level" instead. And more than a few newbies have been taken aback that you actually need to be 7th level to be able to memorize 4th level spells.

The jargon in LA is pretty much the worst around. Except for every other RPG I've ever read.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1088259I like LA, too, but I found the Hekaforge books far more to my taste than the TLG boxed set. I think it cut a bit *too* much.

I'd like to see the full rules published, again, but I'm not holding my breath for anything out of Gygax Games, at this point.

I communicated with Alex over a Facebook group a few weeks ago. I mentioned how I still had an actiave LA group, hoping to hear some excitement about what he was working on. He said he wished he still had an active group. I'm thinking my group's gotta get motivated to do it ourselves. As far as I know, we are the last long-running active group left for the game. And we've got both an artist and an illustrator at our game table.

Glad to see more people remember LA with love. To be honest, I don't have much trouble with lingo. Today we have games with jargon, and no one cares.

However, I still find it hard to wrap my head around the rules. I would say it is a matter of wording, but since English is my second language, I might be wrong. Rules contradiction and spread between books doesn't help (but this last point was also a problem for AD&D)

Activations and memory tablets are the kinds of language that I expect to be talking out of characters, and not in characters. But that can be easily fixed

(ASP) Attacker Situation Precision is another term that could be ignored and described as modifier or final mod.

(AB) Activity Block and (ABC) Activity Block Count, could be simple turns. 1 ABC = 1 turn (3s). 1 AB = 4 turns (12s). This could be a good question for Lunamancer. What is the purpose of the AB? AFAIK, attacks are measured in ABC. Activations (Spells) are measured in seconds, but we already cover that in this thread.

Quote from: Lunamancer;1088333I communicated with Alex over a Facebook group a few weeks ago. I mentioned how I still had an actiave LA group, hoping to hear some excitement about what he was working on. He said he wished he still had an active group. I'm thinking my group's gotta get motivated to do it ourselves. As far as I know, we are the last long-running active group left for the game. And we've got both an artist and an illustrator at our game table.

Oh, color me interested. I would love to see a reprint or a new edition of LA.  Nevertheless, I'm also interested to see what are you doing with the system.

Quote from: Rithuan;1088370Glad to see more people remember LA with love. To be honest, I don't have much trouble with lingo. Today we have games with jargon, and no one cares.

Yeah, I mean I had to learn the game from scratch like anyone else. There was no one to teach me. I had to read the books. I found the language less difficult than most RPGs. I might read a sentence out of, oh say, 5th edition that makes no sense at all without knowing the jargon. Which means stopping, going to look up the jargon, then re-reading the sentence. Even though in principle I think 5E is a decent system, so much as making my first character was frustrating as hell. When I read LA, whatever game term, or even just big vocabulary word comes up, the meaning is clear from the context of the sentence.

QuoteHowever, I still find it hard to wrap my head around the rules. I would say it is a matter of wording, but since English is my second language, I might be wrong. Rules contradiction and spread between books doesn't help (but this last point was also a problem for AD&D)

There's no doubt that some of the things in the game did force me to break some of my mental patterns and start looking at things different ways. That's one of the first things I said in this thread. That I think learning LA at that level actually improved my AD&D game a lot.

QuoteActivations and memory tablets are the kinds of language that I expect to be talking out of characters, and not in characters. But that can be easily fixed

I consider memory tablets to be an in-character thing. I forget exactly where in the books it describes what these things are like. I basically think Moses style 10 commandment tablets. And to me that's a cool visual. But the LM can also vary them up. Maybe enchanters can spend 6 magical list equipment picks for a magic book which holds up to 25-30 powers. That would likely result in the Enchanter starting with two fewer powers but able to get 1-6 more in the long run without having to obtain additional tablets.

Quote(ASP) Attacker Situation Precision is another term that could be ignored and described as modifier or final mod.

I'm not sure that term ever gets used. So yes, it can be ignored completely. It doesn't even show up in the glossary.

Quote(AB) Activity Block and (ABC) Activity Block Count, could be simple turns. 1 ABC = 1 turn (3s). 1 AB = 4 turns (12s). This could be a good question for Lunamancer. What is the purpose of the AB? AFAIK, attacks are measured in ABC. Activations (Spells) are measured in seconds, but we already cover that in this thread.

I don't think anyone at all knows the answer. But I may have a pretty good idea. It starts to become somewhat obvious the instant you decide it would be a good idea to take out a battle mat and use minis. Or in my case, it became obvious when I tried setting up a game on Roll20.

Remember, these aren't 1 minute AD&D style rounds. They're 3 seconds. How far can you really move in 3 seconds? It would take FOREVER to make your way across the battlefield. So using longer rounds, like action blocks, makes things a lot more manageable, and it starts to become more obvious why ABs are there.

Movement rates are spelled out on pg 185/186 LR4AP. And this section could have definitely been done better. I did out all the math. The movement rates listed under "Exterior Movement" matches up exactly with movement rates under "General Movement" for Avatars with 10 Speed. So I assume likewise "Subterranean Movement" rates are based on an Avatar with 10 Speed. When I do out the math, it turns out the base movement rate is exactly equal Speed in yards per Action Block. This is set up for old-school style where you can generally have three abreast in a 10 foot corridor rather than just 2--basically using a 1 yard grid rather than a 5' grid. Then you can move one yard per point of Speed. If you're using 25mm minis on a table top, a Speed of 12 means you can move 12" in an action block. The idea being, you should be using Action blocks until the actual fighting begins.

QuoteOh, color me interested. I would love to see a reprint or a new edition of LA.  Nevertheless, I'm also interested to see what are you doing with the system.

This September is the 20th anniversary of the release of Lejendary Rules for All Players. I thought it would be funny to convert the game to using a d20 style mechanic and calling it Lejendary Adventure 2 0. I feel like it would lose a lot switching to a d20 though.

Quote from: Lunamancer;1088423I consider memory tablets to be an in-character thing. I forget exactly where in the books it describes what these things are like. I basically think Moses style 10 commandment tablets. And to me that's a cool visual. But the LM can also vary them up. Maybe enchanters can spend 6 magical list equipment picks for a magic book which holds up to 25-30 powers. That would likely result in the Enchanter starting with two fewer powers but able to get 1-6 more in the long run without having to obtain additional tablets.

That's an interesting option for a more classic D&D wizard.  I mind the name more than the visual. Makes me think of an iPad, which could be cool for an urban mage or Shadowrun, but not for a fantasy setting.

I change a lot the visual aspect of the tablets. The default is the "tablet," but a player can choose color crystals (like FFVII Materias), runes, bones inscribed, etc. One player asked tattoos which could be problematic since its difficult to separate the memory tablet form the character... but is not impossible.

Quote from: Lunamancer;1088423I don't think anyone at all knows the answer. But I may have a pretty good idea. It starts to become somewhat obvious the instant you decide it would be a good idea to take out a battle mat and use minis. Or in my case, it became obvious when I tried setting up a game on Roll20.

Remember, these aren't 1 minute AD&D style rounds. They're 3 seconds. How far can you really move in 3 seconds? It would take FOREVER to make your way across the battlefield. So using longer rounds, like action blocks, makes things a lot more manageable, and it starts to become more obvious why ABs are there.

Movement rates are spelled out on pg 185/186 LR4AP. And this section could have definitely been done better. I did out all the math. The movement rates listed under "Exterior Movement" matches up exactly with movement rates under "General Movement" for Avatars with 10 Speed. So I assume likewise "Subterranean Movement" rates are based on an Avatar with 10 Speed. When I do out the math, it turns out the base movement rate is exactly equal Speed in yards per Action Block. This is set up for old-school style where you can generally have three abreast in a 10 foot corridor rather than just 2--basically using a 1 yard grid rather than a 5' grid. Then you can move one yard per point of Speed. If you're using 25mm minis on a table top, a Speed of 12 means you can move 12" in an action block. The idea being, you should be using Action blocks until the actual fighting begins.

This was a remarkable example of its usefulness. I'll keep that in mind, considering that im not a big fan of miniatures and maps.
By the way, next time you set up an adventure in roll20, let me know! I'm eager to play.

Quote from: Lunamancer;1088423This September is the 20th anniversary of the release of Lejendary Rules for All Players. I thought it would be funny to convert the game to using a d20 style mechanic and calling it Lejendary Adventure 2 0. I feel like it would lose a lot switching to a d20 though.

Hey, I didn't know it was September. I also think it would lose a lot converting the system, but you could always convert some of the gygaxian elements like Orders, some extraordinary objects and activations.

To be honest, I would be more interested in a Lejendary Companion, that helps to sort out some rules questions and contradictions, and include advice on how to run the game. I'm considering updating the QS in Spanish, adding more avatars and changing some events. Perhaps a continuation of the QS adventure. I'll write BluSponge when I'm ready for that.

Hello Again,

I have one more question regarding merits,  gaining new skills, and activations.  

1) I have some confusion with Divination and Psychogenic. Both appear in the Immediately Gained Abilities and the Special-Training Required Abilities. Does this mean that Initial skill can be gained as Immediately Gained Abilities, but the initial divination methods/powers need to be learned as Special-Training Required Abilities?  (Note that it's different in cost and difficulty than "Gaining new extraordinary activations" on LML p 142)

2) If 1) is correct, Do you need to spend 3000 merits for each initial psychogenic activations? When do you pay gold and roll the dice for learning, and when do you buy them with merits?

3) Finally, Is there a limit of the complexity of the activation you can choose at the character creation?
Theurgy and George, among others, require tier IX activations in order to use other activations. So in the beginning, we know you can pick IX grade activations,  but can you choose only the best activations (IX) skipping the basic ones (I-III)?

Quote from: Rithuan;1088823To be honest, I would be more interested in a Lejendary Companion, that helps to sort out some rules questions and contradictions, and include advice on how to run the game. I'm considering updating the QS in Spanish, adding more avatars and changing some events. Perhaps a continuation of the QS adventure. I'll write BluSponge when I'm ready for that.

That would be cool. I was a play-tester and consultant on the quick start. It was a weird thing, some of the back-and-forths I had with others in the community.

My perspective on LA in general is, this is a great and flexible system. Let's show it can do D&D style dungeon crawls as well as more free form adventures with plenty of RP and outdoor and exploration skill use. And that was shouted down, the part about the dungeon crawling. Let D&D do that. Let LA play to its strengths.

Fine.

But then when it came to the QuickStart, since the objective was to showcase the game's rules, the adventure itself was kept pretty bog standard, tossing out the whole idea of playing to LA's strengths. The idea was also to get players started quickly, so it only stuck to familiar races, leaving out the ones unique to LA.

So I would say absolutely, there is a lot of room to grow this. It's been over a decade since I last asked him, but BluSponge felt like the quick start gets the job done, no other is needed. I thought it would have been neat to have a few other independent quick starts. Each to give a different taste of what LA is like since so much had to be left out of the original. The bog-standard RPG adventure is not going to appeal to everyone.

In any case, what I have decided to work on is a Dungeoneers Guide to Lejendary Adventure. And all this is is me going through the AD&D 1st Ed corebooks, picking out every single thing the rules say a character can do, and formulating how something like that would work in LA. And I'm trying to come up with formulations that give similar probabilities to D&D. The idea being to give the D&D players and DMs the tools to do in LA what they've come to expect from RPGs. AD&D has an open doors rating right on the strength table? So I want to make sure we have a ruling on standby that covers that. Half of Physique + one-tenth of Body Weight (in lbs). Listening at doors? 10% + half of Scrutiny.

Quote from: Rithuan;10896661) I have some confusion with Divination and Psychogenic. Both appear in the Immediately Gained Abilities and the Special-Training Required Abilities. Does this mean that Initial skill can be gained as Immediately Gained Abilities, but the initial divination methods/powers need to be learned as Special-Training Required Abilities?  (Note that it's different in cost and difficulty than "Gaining new extraordinary activations" on LML p 142)

You got it exactly.

Quote2) If 1) is correct, Do you need to spend 3000 merits for each initial psychogenic activations? When do you pay gold and roll the dice for learning, and when do you buy them with merits?

I don't require the 3000 merits for the initial powers. I guess the rules don't directly say one way or another. But I think it's implied.

Look at the example it gives for Enchantment. You take the initial score, divide by 3. That's how many chances you get at a power, subject to the learning check. So with 17 ability, divided by 3, that's rounded up to 6 chances. If only half of those chances succeed, you start your new ability knowing 3 powers.

It then follows that up to say, for other Extraordinary Abilities, things such as learning to create command and protection circles, count as power-like picks. With 17 initial ability, these things would count against your 6 chances. So with that, I'd liken it to equipment picks. Save for memory tablets, anything that requires an equipment pick counts as one of your chances.

With Psychogenics, each power requires 3 equipment picks. So an Avatar beginning with 17 Ability would get six chances, but in Psychogenics each power would cost "3 chances." So you make your check to learn power twice. With a 47% chance of success, that means you're probably going to end up with one. Now here are a couple of caveats. First, since these extraordinary abilities have no function without these powers, I'll put a floor in of 1 power. Even if every learning check fails. Second, with a 17 Ability in Psychogenics, you're not capable of knowing more than one power until your ability reaches 20. So I skip the checks and just automatically start the Avatar out with one power upon first learning Psychogenics Ability.

Divination works more like Enchantment. You get the 6 chances at learning a Divination means. As I read divination, unlike Psychogenics, you round up, not down, to determine number of means you may have. So at 17 you are allowed to have 2. At 21 you may learn a third one. Again, here, in the unlikely event that all 6 checks fail, I still allow the Avatar to begin with one Divination means. But most likely the Avatar will have two means initially upon learning divination.

As an aside, I have been giving some thought to expanding Divination so it uses powers like most other Extraordinary Abilities. It would have three sub-areas: Astrology, Fortune-Telling, and Mediumship. I don't often see players take Divination Ability, but feedback I've gotten from players is they'd be a lot more likely to take it if it does have regular powers.

Quote3) Finally, Is there a limit of the complexity of the activation you can choose at the character creation?
Theurgy and George, among others, require tier IX activations in order to use other activations. So in the beginning, we know you can pick IX grade activations,  but can you choose only the best activations (IX) skipping the basic ones (I-III)?

Not unless you houserule it. When we were talking about alternatives to memory tablets, I thought about having Spellbooks for Enchanters that cost several equipment picks. And the number of powers they would hold would be variable, with higher grade ones taking up more space. Just something I'm toying with. So you should push that aside for now.

The main feature of higher grade powers is usually longer range. This is most easily seen with Geourgy. If you look at the range of the powers, look at the activation time for higher grade powers, and consider typical movement speeds, you see there's a rough semblance of "balance" to it. Higher activation times is pretty much a no-go if someone is standing right on top of you, taking whacks at you every ABC. The further away the enemy is, the more time you have to activate before the enemy closes in, so the more viable higher grade activations are. The flip side being, if the enemy is really that far away, the lower grade activations might not have the range necessary to be viable themselves. This is how the game scales, from fighting in close quarters, to large scale skirmishes on a battle field. Now of course there's also generally a trade-off between AEP cost and harm caused. But then again, that's to be expected. If the enemy is a full action block away from you, you can fire out a Very Strong power. In that same amount of time, you could have fired out four Low-Moderate powers.

I should say, I'm currently playing a Mage Avatar, and I almost exclusively use powers Grade I-III. Sometimes I'll use a Grade IV or V. It's rare I'll use anything higher than that. I have a few powers I've literally never used are Spirit Form and Elephant of Surprise. I don't consider them wastes of picks, though, because they could save my ass in a tough situation as a last resort.

Whoa-whoa-whoa.  Ok.  As the uncredited writer of the LA quick start, I feel I have to step in here and provide my perspective on this one.  Not because Luna is wrong on the score, only that he's missing some key details.

Quote from: Lunamancer;1090215My perspective on LA in general is, this is a great and flexible system. Let's show it can do D&D style dungeon crawls as well as more free form adventures with plenty of RP and outdoor and exploration skill use. And that was shouted down, the part about the dungeon crawling. Let D&D do that. Let LA play to its strengths.

I'm in the same camp as Luna here.  In fact, I remember when Gygax was wondering aloud over the LA forums what to write for the intro adventure in the Living the Lejend book.  He throw out some idea for a grand tournament, with the PCs all taking art in little Ren Fair activities to learn the basic concepts of the system.  Sort of like High Time at the Winged Pig in the Mythus core book.  (Anyone remember that adventure?  No?  Exactly!)  I got up on my (comparably small) soap box and said something to the effect of "Dude, you are Gary Gygax.  People are looking to you for the next Giants-Drow saga, the next Keep on the Borderlands, the next Necropolis.  And you want to give them High Times at the Winged Pig part deux?  That's a mistake.  Own up to your legacy and give the fans what they want, but something new."  I mention this because, like Luna, I think LA does dungeoncrawling just fine (but different--no levels means no funky tiering), and I think it was silly for Gygax not to embrace that aspect of his legacy in this new game.  It would be like Metallica announcing they were going to do a new album of soft rock tunes.

So when I set out to write the QS, you better believe I was gonna put a little dungeon crawl in it.

QuoteBut then when it came to the QuickStart, since the objective was to showcase the game's rules, the adventure itself was kept pretty bog standard, tossing out the whole idea of playing to LA's strengths. The idea was also to get players started quickly, so it only stuck to familiar races, leaving out the ones unique to LA.

So I would say absolutely, there is a lot of room to grow this. It's been over a decade since I last asked him, but BluSponge felt like the quick start gets the job done, no other is needed. I thought it would have been neat to have a few other independent quick starts. Each to give a different taste of what LA is like since so much had to be left out of the original. The bog-standard RPG adventure is not going to appeal to everyone.

Did I say that?  Maybe I did.  A decade is a long time.

So here is the skinny on the QS.  I wasn't commissioned.  I wasn't given any parameters.  No instruction.  It isn't like Gary or Chris took me aside and said, "you know what you should do..."  None of that.  Savage Worlds had just come out and released this great Quick Start pdf with a really cool pulp adventure and I thought, "this is great!  LA needs something like this!"  I asked and there were no plans to do one.  So being the overeager fan, I set out and made one.  I put the pdf together in a very specific way, particularly in regards to the pre-gens (that wasn't kept in the TLG version), and sent it off to Gary and Chris who were then gracious enough to put it out.

Now with the benefit of hindsight, I can see where I made a LOT of mistakes writing the QS.  In some ways, I probably made the game harder to comprehend.  And, like Luna says, the adventure wasn't written to play to LA's strengths (I just thought it was a cool idea for an adventure).  There wasn't a lot of strategy behind it.  It's basically a fan product.  Now, a decade later, I'd probably write something very different.  Kinda like my Barcalonia sourcebook draft that is sitting somewhere on CD.  It was a product of its time, my eagerness, and my inexperience.  I don't even recall it getting an edit from Chris or anyone.  The pdf went up just the way I turned it in.  The TLG folks took it, and reformatted it, and put it back out into the wild.  I didn't even have the wherewithal to put my name on it (because it's about the GAME, man!).

So anyone who reads the QS these days and thinks, WTF?  Or is underwhelmed with the adventure?  Or finds the abbreviated rules (particularly about power activation times) a hot mess?  That's all on me.

Do I feel the QS gets the job done?  Nope.  I have no doubt someone could do a better job than I did (or at least as good a one).  I don't think the QS is bad, mind you.  I'm proud of how it came out.  I think it (mostly) does what I set out to do.  But 10 years later, I think it could have been better.  A lot better.  But since there isn't an actively published game to support right now (unless you go with Perilous Journeys, which is close but feels like its missing some key ingredients), I'm not sure there is a point to revamping it.  

I personally would love to see a full on retroclone of LA.  I've played around with doing something in that vein, but I just don't have the time anymore to throw myself into a project like that when I'm not actively playing it.  And my level of system mastery is not even close to Luna's (in fact, that LA requires that level of system mastery is one of the things that bugs me about the game).  But anyone who wants to give it a go not only has my blessing, my attention, but also can count on my feedback.

But I'm curious.  Maybe Luna remembers.  What ARE the strengths that LA built its adventures on?  I don't remember any discussions or any guiding principles from Gary on that score.  That's the sort of thing that's been front and center on my mind as I start prepping for a Fantasy AGE game in the fall (using the LA bestiary and world materials, I should add): what does the game excel at and how do I build that into my adventures?

Tom

Quote from: Blusponge;1090419I remember when Gygax was wondering aloud over the LA forums what to write for the intro adventure in the Living the Lejend book.  He throw out some idea for a grand tournament, with the PCs all taking art in little Ren Fair activities to learn the basic concepts of the system.

For an OG, he was hip to what was going on in CRPGs. Nowadays every computer game has that damned tutorial walking you through some actual play. It's the standard now. That said, I don't really like it. I find it frustrating, I don't actually learn anything from it, and it takes forever just for me to get going where I can mess around with things so i can begin figuring it all out. That's why even though I love Jon Creffield's work, and I thought Lejendary Road was a neat concept, I'm only luke warm on that module. Too much of that tutorial feel to it.

QuoteSort of like High Time at the Winged Pig in the Mythus core book.  (Anyone remember that adventure?  No?  Exactly!

Well, I remember High Time at the Winged Pig, and I really liked it. I don't consider it an adventure, though. It's more like an introduction. It will fill about a half session of play. It is it has a decent enough twist. If you add a part B to it and make it a full-fledged adventure, I think it works really well.

QuoteI got up on my (comparably small) soap box and said something to the effect of "Dude, you are Gary Gygax.  People are looking to you for the next Giants-Drow saga, the next Keep on the Borderlands, the next Necropolis.  And you want to give them High Times at the Winged Pig part deux?  That's a mistake.  Own up to your legacy and give the fans what they want, but something new."  I mention this because, like Luna, I think LA does dungeoncrawling just fine (but different--no levels means no funky tiering), and I think it was silly for Gygax not to embrace that aspect of his legacy in this new game.

Well, it's tough, though. Do you honor the legacy of his great works? Or do you honor the mind and the process that created those works? I don't think he would have come up with any of those great things if he hadn't been trying to do something new and different. If you take the best Gary ever did and had a Gary clone pumping out nothing but clones of those things, it will be okay. Maybe even highly salable. But it's not going to produce any new classics. My biggest gripe with the "modern RPG"--and you see this in spades with 5E and OSR--is that it's mainly a rehasing of the past. It's awesome that Tomb of Horrors has the kind of staying power that allows it to be rehashed for 4 decades and still sell really well. It would be even more awesome if someone could create the next great module that will carry on for the next 4 decades.

Hall of Many Panes, it turns out, is my favorite module of all time. Good pay-off for attempting to do something new there. At the same time, one of the very best parts of it is the large dungeon crawl.

QuoteI personally would love to see a full on retroclone of LA.  I've played around with doing something in that vein, but I just don't have the time anymore to throw myself into a project like that when I'm not actively playing it.  And my level of system mastery is not even close to Luna's (in fact, that LA requires that level of system mastery is one of the things that bugs me about the game).  But anyone who wants to give it a go not only has my blessing, my attention, but also can count on my feedback.

You know I love to argue this point of how easy or hard the game is. I began running my first LA campaign in 2000, about a year after LR4AP was published. After about 2 months, I was as comfortable running LA as I was running AD&D. At that point, I'd been running pure 1E for 7 years, and I'd been playing various editions, mostly mish-mashed, for 10 years prior to that. It's hard for me not to put LA waaaaay over on the easy to learn end of the spectrum.

If I have any special insights, they're not specific to LA. They're just things that I generally find to be good ideas no matter what RPG you play. Some RPGs are more receptive to these "good ideas" than others. I consider LA one of the best.

QuoteBut I'm curious.  Maybe Luna remembers.  What ARE the strengths that LA built its adventures on?  I don't remember any discussions or any guiding principles from Gary on that score.  That's the sort of thing that's been front and center on my mind as I start prepping for a Fantasy AGE game in the fall (using the LA bestiary and world materials, I should add): what does the game excel at and how do I build that into my adventures?

I think this is the one time the phrase "product of its time" can be invoked without me rolling my eyes. :D Remember, LR4AP was released in 1999, and the game was in beta back in 97.

As I recall gaming in the 90's, it went something like this. A hell of a lot of finger wagging. Dungeon crawling was fun as hell. But it got turned into a guilty pleasure. That's childish video game stuff. A more mature game has stuff like "political intrigue." Another thing that makes me roll my eyes. Because that term could mean so many different things that there's no way anyone who honestly does prefer to have "political intrigue" in their campaigns would ever use that phrase to describe their campaign or preferences. I think one of the reasons I liked LA it straight out had an ability called "Pretense."

Anyway, the point is, to be one of the cool kids--as cool as any gamer could aspire to become anyway--you had to look down your nose at dungeon crawls and hack and slay and deny that stuff is actually fun and exciting. Skill-based games were favored because, as different as classes could be from one another, they could still be designed as "combat balanced"--and a lot of people felt that was the case with D&D whether or not it actually ever was a design goal or whether or not it ever was truly combat balanced. Skill-based games, on the other hand, there was no way of predicting where players would lump their skill picks. It breaks the "combat balance" paradigm, so that necessarily shifts the focus of the game. Rules-lite were also favored, because hack-and-slay play generally meant rules-playing. Well, if you're lite on rules, it's not that interesting to rules play. You don't have much meat on the bones, And so that likewise shifted the focus of the game.

Since LA is skill-based and rules-lite, it was obviously better suited to this more "mature" mode of play. Is it Chris Clark who always says LA is about what you can do, not who you can kill?

And hey, how are you going to run a Dungeon Crawl campaign in LA without giving the Forester Order the shaft? The key is to take that as a legitimate question, not a rhetorical one. Foresters abilities are all athletically oriented. They're good at leaping and climbing and running. So you level up your dungeons to include more of these challenges. Make use of the third dimension while you're at it. This is just for starters. If you get serious about doing dungeoncrawls in LA, they will kick a D&D dungeoncrawl's ass. For what it's worth, I wrote a killer dungeon crawl many years ago where Alchemia, Creativity, and Panprobability are key to certain parts of the dungeon.

Quote from: Blusponge;1090419So here is the skinny on the QS.  I wasn't commissioned.  I wasn't given any parameters.  No instruction.  It isn't like Gary or Chris took me aside and said, "you know what you should do..."  None of that.  Savage Worlds had just come out and released this great Quick Start pdf with a really cool pulp adventure and I thought, "this is great!  LA needs something like this!"  I asked and there were no plans to do one.  So being the overeager fan, I set out and made one.  I put the pdf together in a very specific way, particularly in regards to the pre-gens (that wasn't kept in the TLG version), and sent it off to Gary and Chris who were then gracious enough to put it out.

Now with the benefit of hindsight, I can see where I made a LOT of mistakes writing the QS.  In some ways, I probably made the game harder to comprehend.  And, like Luna says, the adventure wasn't written to play to LA's strengths (I just thought it was a cool idea for an adventure).  There wasn't a lot of strategy behind it.  It's basically a fan product.  Now, a decade later, I'd probably write something very different.  Kinda like my Barcalonia sourcebook draft that is sitting somewhere on CD.  It was a product of its time, my eagerness, and my inexperience.  I don't even recall it getting an edit from Chris or anyone.  The pdf went up just the way I turned it in.  The TLG folks took it, and reformatted it, and put it back out into the wild.  I didn't even have the wherewithal to put my name on it (because it's about the GAME, man!).

Before making a full reply, I just wanted to say thank you! I find the QS a good introduction with familiar tropes with familiar archetypes. You should be proud of what you did. Also, as a side note, the QS is the only still standing piece of Lejendary Adventure that people can still find available. After all this years! And If I mentioned I wanted to create a companion to the QS, is not to erase its success, but to build on its own merits.

Also, I wanted to add that I find interesting that none of us find solace in Perilous Journey.

PS: Lunamancer, Thank you for the answers on my previous questions. Of course I still have more to follow up.

Quote from: Rithuan;1090499Also, I wanted to add that I find interesting that none of us find solace in Perilous Journey.

I admire Perilous Journeys in some ways. Hey, they went out and actually put something together. That's great. For myself, I would rather have something more true to the original. The creators of Perilous Journeys don't play the way I play, and the original Lejendary Adventure is more flexible and accommodating. LA makes for a better center for the PJs of the world to revolve around rather than the other way around.

Cross-posted to the LA facebook group:

I've been wanting to do more dungeon crawling with Lejendary Adventure. AD&D 1E seems more specialized in dungeon crawls while Lejendary Adventure's power is as more of a general purpose engine. But that also means that LA should have no problem adapting those specialized parts of AD&D for the task.

So here are some ideas along those lines:

-Forcing open stuck doors: 10% of Avatar's body weight plus 50% of Physique Ability
-Bend Bars/Lift Gates: 30% of Physique Ability.
-Forcing open barred or locked doors: 1% per point of Physique over 100.

-Searching for Secret Doors: Speed + 50% of Scrutiny or Stealth (whichever is higher) + 10% of the other, if applicable. (examining/searching) and/or 10% of Stealth (access/escape)
-Finding Concealed Doors: Speed x2 +50% of Scrutiny and/or 50% of Stealth

-Listening at Doors: base 10% (for human hearing) plus 50% of Scrutiny and 10% of any Ability possessed that allows the Avatar to avoid Surprise

How to create a Wylf Outlaw

It's generally difficult in Lejendary Adventure to squeeze Alfar into the human Order templates. However, there are certain Alfar-Order combinations that lend themselves fairly well to it. Even still, whether you're playing a Human or Alfar Avatar, if you begin an Ordered Avatar without all the abilities in the proper order, it takes a lot of patience and a lot of merits to reach 9th Rank. After 9th Rank, you have full freedom to develop the Avatar you see fit. Here are some tips for creating a Wylf Outlaw Avatar to get to 9th Rank the quickest.

Your two chosen Abilities should be Waylaying first, obviously, followed by Archery. This leaves Weapons Ability to fill your default "fifth ability" slot. Combined with the racial abilities, this gives you all of the required outlaw abilities, plus Stealth and Scrutiny, two very valuable Abilities to add to the Outlaw Avatar's repertoire.

To get the abilities in order, first Ranging must exceed Archery, then Weapons Ability must be raised higher than Stealth. Adding to Weapons Ability is generally relatively easy. In most campaigns, combat will happen often enough that you will never be at a loss for Ability-specific Merits. And players generally don't mind having to increase their Avatar's Weapons Ability. As for Ranging and Archery, it is possible to get them in the correct order during Avatar creation.

Here's how:

If you're assigning 14 points to Speed BR, you will want to assign 53 to 66 points to Health BR and 20 to 31 points to Precision. If you choose not to assign maximum points to Speed BR, divide the freed up points as evenly as possible between Health and Precision BRs such that more of the freed up points are assigned to Health (example: if you opt for 8 Speed, this frees up 6 points; assign 4 additional points to Health and 2 to Precision).

Barring the rare Knack or Quirk, if you assign BR points like this, even if you roll the highest possible points for Precision and the lowest possible for Health, you will still begin with Waylaying, Ranging, and Archery, in order, ranked as your three highest Abilities. Note that the more points you assign to Health and the less to Precision, the more quickly the Avatar will rise in ranks. But the more points you assign to Precision and the fewer to Health, the more total Ability Score points you will have over all. This is the tradeoff.

Note also that it is possible to assign fewer points to Health, and more points to Precision than the range I have given. You may still begin with your Abilities in proper order, but you leave it to chance. Assigning 48 to Health, 36 to Precision, and 16 to Speed, for example, still give you a very high Probability of beginning play with the Abilities in order, while boosting your initial Archery ability making those initial combats a bit easier for you.

Hello again, I'm back

Quote from: Lunamancer;1090485For what it's worth, I wrote a killer dungeon crawl many years ago where Alchemia, Creativity, and Panprobability are key to certain parts of the dungeon.

I'll love to hear more about it!

Quote from: Lunamancer;1091945How to create a Wylf Outlaw

I recall a post from Gary in ENworld or Dragonsfoot, when he contradicted the errata regarding alfars and advancing in an Order. One of the many things that require a clear language.

I'm finally back with some more questions. I still have a few follow-ups for some of the previous post.

Command and Protection Circles [LR4AP 158]
This is a follow-up for an old question. A few pages ago, I asked if propitiation and votive materials for Teourgy used a slot in a Memory Tablet.

Now I face a similar question regarding the command and protect circles. For Sorcery (p158), it states that "A Sorcerer also must record, on a Sorcery memory tablet, all information about any type of workings - circle, Summonings, Calling Ups and Powers."

But for necrourgy (p 136), it only says that "Each Ritual, Spell and Power possessed must be recorded", not mentioning the command and protect circles. Geourgy (p 106) and Teourgy (p168), similar to necrourgy, does not mention recording the command and protect circles.

So, my question is: Does command and protection's circles need to be recorded in the memory tablet? Or is Sorcery just an exception? On page 57 appears as "materials" for Geourgy, Necrourgy, Sorcery, and Teourgy.

Psychogenic and Merits, pt2 [LML p143]
As a follow-up of the 3000 merits per Psychogenic power. If It's not in the initial training, when do you need to spend merits to learn a new power? because, for what I gather, Psychogenic is the only ability that requires to pay training, spend merits (3000) and also has an Ability limit (at least gain 10 points since the last power, unless you haven't reached the limit)

Quote from: Rithuan;1094198I'll love to hear more about it!

The short version is, part of the dungeon had a long lost ancient art gallery, guarded by a ghost (curator) who only permits entrance if he is permitted to drain some of the Avatar's energy (resulting in permanent health loss). It turns out it's well worth it. The art is all magical. You can't loot it, but it has beneficial effects. Mostly. Some of it is nasty. Successful use of creativity Ability gives some clue as to which is which. There's also a statue of a sad minstrel, and I allow a creativity check to understand the reason is sad is because his instrument is out of tune. Elsewhere in the dungeon is a magical tuning fork. If returned, the statue turns happy and bestows a benefit upon the party--enough to make up for the lost point of Health for sure.

In the dungeon is also an old alchemy lab. When the closet is searched, there is a trigger that closes and locks the door to the room, trapping the Avatars in. And if that isn't bad enough, the alchemist has skeletons in the closet. Bonewalkers that keep re-animating. A successful Alchemia check will allow an Avatar know which of the things left in the lab to combine to create an acid strong enough to eat through the lock on the door and escape. Without Alchemia, it's a matter of trial and error. Some combinations produce poison gases or explosions which can seriously harm the party. An Avatar without Alchemia who manages to get the right combination, though, gains Alchemia permanently at a score of 1-3.

As for Panprobability, there is a void spider in the dungeon. The nodes of its web are anchored in other dimensional space. Some of them will transport the party elsewhere in the dungeon. Some in the wilderness. A few to an inhospitable other plane that leads to certain death. An Avatar with Panprobability can get some rough idea of where the nodes lead and know which ones are dangerous.

QuoteI recall a post from Gary in ENworld or Dragonsfoot, when he contradicted the errata regarding alfars and advancing in an Order. One of the many things that require a clear language.

The general idea is pretty simple. It's just tricky to explain. I got a peak at some of the notes from the retro clone  Blusponge had begun a while back, and he introduces the language of "primary" versus "secondary" abilities. Using that language I think does give a hope to better explain how getting the Abilities in order works. Your "primary" ability is what the game terms your "first" ability. This is the Ability that begins at the highest percentage of the BR. For most Avatars, it's the one that begins at 100% of the BR. But for Trollkin, for example, the best one is Minstrelsy at 80% of Precision. Even if the actual score turns out to be higher for another ability, the primary is still primary.

The secondary Abilities for the order are all those required that are not primary. They must be in proper order, with no abilities interspersed, in order to qualify for 9th rank.

One exception, as I read it, is the Forester Order has a "mandatory" ability that must be either Ranging or Savagery. It's not a required ability, though. So there can be other Abilities between Rustic and Ranging/Savagery without it interfering in qualifying for 9th Rank.

Contrast this with the Rogue Order, who has a 5th required ability of either Minstrelsy or Chivalry. In order to qualify for 9th rank, you may not have other abilities ranked between Tricks and Chivalry/Minstrelsy.

That being said, it is a big challenge to get Alfar Abilities in order to reach 9th Rank in most cases. But again, once you've made 9th Rank, you can go on to develop the Avatar any way you see fit. Only the rising First Ability determines future rank qualifications. In the LA group where I'm a player, one of the other players is playing a Wylf Forester. Just a couple of sessions ago he finally made 9th Rank.

QuoteI'm finally back with some more questions. I still have a few follow-ups for some of the previous post.

Command and Protection Circles [LR4AP 158]
This is a follow-up for an old question. A few pages ago, I asked if propitiation and votive materials for Teourgy used a slot in a Memory Tablet.

Now I face a similar question regarding the command and protect circles. For Sorcery (p158), it states that "A Sorcerer also must record, on a Sorcery memory tablet, all information about any type of workings - circle, Summonings, Calling Ups and Powers."

But for necrourgy (p 136), it only says that "Each Ritual, Spell and Power possessed must be recorded", not mentioning the command and protect circles. Geourgy (p 106) and Teourgy (p168), similar to necrourgy, does not mention recording the command and protect circles.

So, my question is: Does command and protection's circles need to be recorded in the memory tablet? Or is Sorcery just an exception? On page 57 appears as "materials" for Geourgy, Necrourgy, Sorcery, and Teourgy.

So what I just wrote above about the Forester vs the Rogue Orders? It's oddly relevant to the answer to this question.

It is an open question about whether the differences in the wordings between the Rogue and Forester Orders concerning the Orders "fifth" Abilities is intended to mean they work different, or if it's just inconsistent editing. In the case of Rogue and Forester, I feel the subtle differences actually make sense considering their orders, so I side with the difference in wording being intentional.

For your question here, I'm leaning more towards inconsistent editing. Unless there's something out there I haven't thought of, I have no particular reason to believe the Sorcerer would work differently from the Geourge, Theurge, or Necrourge. I think the key thing, the spirit of the thing, is that the command and summoning circles take up two of your initial power picks. And that's because these summonings can obviously be very powerful. When we play, everyone respects the spirit of the thing, so using picks to get your initial command and summoning materials is fine. If I found players were going against the spirit, not picking circle materials with their initial equipment picks and instead acquiring them on the cheap after play begins, I probably would require the knowledge to be written on a memory tablet as a way of forcing those extra picks to be spent.

QuotePsychogenic and Merits, pt2 [LML p143]
As a follow-up of the 3000 merits per Psychogenic power. If It's not in the initial training, when do you need to spend merits to learn a new power? because, for what I gather, Psychogenic is the only ability that requires to pay training, spend merits (3000) and also has an Ability limit (at least gain 10 points since the last power, unless you haven't reached the limit)

Here's an easy and common example.

Say you decide you want to make a "Psionicist." So you pick Psychogenics as your first Ability. Most likely it will start somewhere in the 50's. So you're allowed to have up to 5 powers. But with Psychogenics as a first Ability comes 9 "magical" list picks. And each Psychogenic power costs 3 picks. So you only begin with 3 powers. The other two you may learn later at the cost of 3000 merits.


My brother reads a lot more fantasy literature than I do. Plus he's seen all the Harry Potter movies. And he has little kids. His opinion, if he's watching the wizards in these movies through the Lejendary Adventure lens, a lot of them do rely on magic wands or staves. Sometimes they cast spells without them that take a bit of casting (time) to complete. But then they also seem to have a few powers they use only when absolutely necessary that seems to require no items, no components, and no time. He believes the "high level" wizards have actually supplemented their "Enchantment" Ability with Psionics.

I think he's got a point. Psionics has some cool powers. So does Enchantment. With enchantment, I feel like I get a lot more bang for my buck. But I can see how valuable that zero casting time for Psychogenics would be as a supplement to an Enchanter. And since it is just a supplement, you don't have to worry about how hard keeping up acquiring new powers is. Because the Enchantment is your main go-to.


Incidentally, he also pointed out to me that in the "Essentials" version of the game, they swap out the Ability the Rogue learns at 1st Rank. In LR4AP, top ranked Rogues learn Psychogenics. In essentials, it's Enchantment. At first he thought it made it more D&D-like--like how thieves at 10th+ level can start to use spell scrolls. Having enchantment would enable Rogues use of any spell memory tablet as you and I have already discussed earlier in this thread. Psychogenics, we seem to agree, not so much. But on closer inspection, he thinks the real reason for the change is because Essentials left out Psychogenics. And so it was just to make it so it didn't reference a rule that wasn't there.


But I got to thinking. He's got a point about the D&D-like nature of Rogues learning Enchantment. And he's got a point about high level wizards supplementing their powers with Psychogenics. I thought, maybe I should just have Rogues pick up Enchantment at 1st Rank, and maybe Mages should get Psychogenics rather than Geourgy at 3rd Rank. He liked the idea but thought maybe I should just allow the players the choice. Rogues get to choose between Enchantment at Psychogenics. Mages may choose between Psychogenics and Geourgy. And I suppose Elementalists at 3rd rank should get to choose between Enchantment and Psychogenics.

Once again, thanks for your reply Lunamancer. Your reply was insightful, as always.
The psychogenic bit make me think a lot about how al extraordinary abilities could complement between each other. Also, and I know I already said it, how awesome is the Orders (or guilds) in LA.

Speaking of orders and characters, I have an open question: how do you approach character creation with this system? I find myself allocating max points in Precision and Speed, to increase de percentage of weapons and extraordinary abilities. I find that starting characters has scores too low.

Edit: it’s hard to write with a phone!

Quote from: Rithuan;1094427Also, and I know I already said it, how awesome is the Orders (or guilds) in LA.

Absolutely.

I think it hits a sweet spot. In D&D, the characters are limited in how far outside the class they can develop. In Gary Gygax's Dangerous Journeys game, the "vocation" sets the vast majority of your initial skills, but once the character is created, you can grow however you want with it. Orders in Lejendary Adventure give a lot more customization than D&D but more of a framework than Dangerous Journeys.

QuoteSpeaking of orders and characters, I have an open question: how do you approach character creation with this system? I find myself allocating max points in Precision and Speed, to increase de percentage of weapons and extraordinary abilities. I find that starting characters has scores too low.

I did more or less the same thing when I started playing. And I get the feeling almost everyone has experienced that. On the old Lejendary.com boards, a lot of people would just treat maxing out Speed BR as a given. And a lot of people felt Speed should cost more during initial character creation.

Obviously if you look at my tips for creating the Wylf Outlaw, there are times when you don't necessarily want to max out Precision. Fitting a race to an order in general is one good reason to do something different.

Another? If you're a combat min-maxer, even though Precision determines your starting Weapons Ability, that's only helpful if you're alive. If Health is roughly proportional to how long your character stays alive, it's roughly an equal factor to Precision in terms of making the best possible fighter. If you're a Soldier, having that Physique Ability also adds to the value of Health, making Health even greater an impact on your overall combat ability. Mind you, Physique begins only at 40% of Health (if you begin with all Abilities in order), and there are 10 points of Physique Ability score separating each +1 harm bonus. So there is a very tight range in which you want to sacrifice Precision for Health. But there is a degree to which you want to do that if you're trying to optimize your Avatar for fighting.

This is further emphasized with the Noble Order. The harm bonus for Chivalry is massive, and Chivalry is 100% of your starting Health. I've crunched the numbers, and it seems to me, in terms of sheer combat, assigning minimum points to Precision (so that Health may be maxed out) yields an Avatar that is roughly equal in combat as a Noble who has Precision maxed out. One will just do more harm while the other will hit more often. Assigning more points to Health means beginning with a much higher social station of course, as you begin as a highly ranked knight. Doing so, however, you skip a lot of ranks and miss out on a lot of those rank benefits. My point is, any choice here is viable. Go with the Avatar you wish to play.

If you care about things other than combat, the other things the Avatar can do, some of the Orders have you making some excruciating choices. For the Soldier, your first Ability is Precision based, but all others are Health based. You may find yourself wanting to sacrifice more than just the few points of Precision that optimize your combat potential so that you can have a much higher Health so that 3 out of your 4 Abilities begin with much higher scores.

The Rogue is another one that presents a tough choice. Their first Ability is Health-based, the others are Precision-based. Usually if I make a Rogue I do want a Precision as high as possible because Weapons, Stealth, and Tricks are going to be frequently used. And with a 40 minimum health, plus two points for beginning with a health-based ability, plus 1d20 random points, I can be reasonably certain Pretense will always at least be at a competent level. On the other hand, sacrificing 4 points of Speed by assigning only 8 points rather than 12 to make Health 4 points higher may make the difference between the rogue beginning at 9th Rank or 8th Rank.

Speed in general seems like a no-brainer to max out, but if you don't begin with any Speed-based Abilities, and most Avatars don't, the main thing Speed does for you is helps with Avoidance checks. 4 points will make a difference of 4-16% (depending if the check is Speed x1, x2, x3, or x4). It's not really much in the grand scheme of things. Meanwhile, freeing up 4 points could potentially mean an additional 11 points in Ability scores--the order Abilities for Desperado are all Precision-based.


Here's another thing I do with Avatar builds. This is mostly a me thing. When I create human Ordered Avatars, I interpose an Ability not required by the order so that I begin play at 11th Rank. For instance, if I'm making an Ecclesiastic, I will choose Weapons as my 3rd Ability. Once I begin playing, I have to work to raise Physique higher than weapons, and then Learning higher than Weapons. Doing this, I step through each rank, one at a time, not skipping any ranks, so I gain all rank benefits. Plus I get to begin with a more unique Avatar. And, by the time I've gotten all abilities in order, the lower Abilities are all around 50. So I'm perfectly competent in them. After that point, I can focus entirely on my 1st Ability--or maybe even split merits between the 1st Ability and the unique Ability I've selected to differentiate my Avatar from others of the same order (so after making 9th Rank, I focus on raising Theurgy and Weapons--all the other Abilities remain roughly 50 each).

Want to do a Paladin? Create a Noble. But choose Theurgy as a 3rd Ability. Now you can squeeze off a couple of minor powers, healing for sure, but you are otherwise basically an extremely highly competent warrior.

One Avatar I made, right at the start I rolled the wanderlust knack (+10% to Nomadic Ability). So I made a nomadic soldier. Weapons, Planning, Nomadic, Physique with Ranging 10 as my bonus 5th Ability. The nice thing about this is I got +4 to my initial Precision rather than +2 due to the extra Precision-based Ability (Nomadic) in my Ability selection. That translated to an extra 2 points of Weapons Ability. But Nomadic also provides a harm bonus. So this Avatar started with a much higher harm bonus than most soldiers. In this case, I did max out Precision, but I sacrificed Speed BR for initial Health. Don't really need the movement speed, anyway, being that this Avatar usually fights from horseback.

The more you start to explore the system, the more you get off the beaten path of assigning 12 to Speed, 48 to Precision, 40 to Health, and choosing the exact Abilities needed by the Order.

Thanks for the detailed review. It's really a deep look into the system. Probably the hardest part.

The day has finally come! I'll play on Saturday with a cast of unlikely heroes. I'm happy! I have tried to schedule that game since forever. I'll try to ask one question before the game. How does the circles for summon works? Once you summon and bind (or the equivalent for the teourgy), can you step out of the circle? Does the party needs to be protected inside the circle as well (I imagine for necrourgy)?

As always, thank you!

Quote from: Rithuan;1101555Thanks for the detailed review. It's really a deep look into the system. Probably the hardest part.

Yeah, remember the intro to Lejendary Rules for All Players. It sets out two goals. To be rules lite and easy for beginners to learn. But at the same time was aiming to be something that provided a lot of depth and challenge for experienced players as well. When you break it down, you almost couldn't ask for a simpler game. Then when you start thinking through things, you find there is a lot of depth and nuance and even complexity to the game.

QuoteThe day has finally come! I'll play on Saturday with a cast of unlikely heroes. I'm happy! I have tried to schedule that game since forever.

Awesome! I hope it goes well. My advice would be, try not to get hung up on rules. Remember Abilities are broadly defined. Err on the side of allowing players to try things and using their Abilities. And the game numbers are tools and there to help you. Feel free to do with them what you will.

For example, if an Avatar is searching for a secret door, rather than just calling for a straight up Scrutiny check, I'll actually call for a check against Speed BR. Those who have Scrutiny get to add half of that ability to the probability. I don't feel constrained to limit myself to straight up percentile checks against the Ability score.

QuoteI'll try to ask one question before the game. How does the circles for summon works? Once you summon and bind (or the equivalent for the teourgy), can you step out of the circle? Does the party needs to be protected inside the circle as well (I imagine for necrourgy)?

I think this is one of those areas where you should have fun with it, treating each spirit as a unique entity. I can tell you my understanding of the rules and how I do it.

The short answer is: Only the Activator must be inside the protection circle, and need only remain there long enough to issue a command.

Summoning in general works like this:

You create a summoning circle and protection circle. If the summoning circle is flawed, even if the activation succeeds, the summoning just fizzles out. You can think of it like, you may have succeeded in calling up the spirit, but failed to command it to so much as materialize. If the summoning circle is good but the protection circle is flawed, a successful activation indicates that the spirit's first act will be to attack the activator, before the activator can issue any command. The spirit leaves the command circle to attack, so no further commands to it may be issued either. Just think of it as the summoning having completely backfired. If both circles are good and the summoning is successful, the activator will issue its command. For elementals, this command sets them about their task. Since they must go to work on the task, the spirit will not attack even if you step out of the protection circle at that point.

There are some variations on this. Deital minions won't attack the activator, but they might shame you. Undead, once commanded, will remain obedient unless they sense the activator is weak--they automatically know if a Necrourge is at zero AEPs, and that's when they will attack. With Sorcery summonings, there's a good chance that the spirit will try to go rogue while obeying the letter of the command. You'll notice Tricks is one of the required Abilities of the Demonurge Order. It implies that you sometimes need to trick the spirits you summon.

All in all, I try to treat each spirit as an individual entity. A sorcerer certainly needs to name a specific spirit. For deital minions, I typically have the Avatar visited by the exact same minion each time using the Rite. For one thing, it helps curb potential abuse of summonings. The spirit will note your track record, and will start giving push back if you summon them for trivial or inappropriate reasons. But I think players also enjoy the continuity and learning the personality of their minion.

For elementals, I haven't done this yet, but recently I was reading through my AD&D 1E Lankhmar book, the NPC section, and one of the NPCs was a female djinn, and I thought it would be cool to have something like that for a recurring spirit. She can bring some sex appeal to it. Admonish Avatars for doing silly things. Laugh when they have silly plans. I also thought of giving her some of the 1e AD&D djinn powers, like the ability to create meals and such. So it's not just the attack forms listed in the BoL.

The other benefit to individualizing spirits is, if you make a call, and it turns out the spirit is over-powered or under-powered, it's a really easy correction to just have a different spirit show up thereafter, whose capacities are more in line with what you deem fair.

Quote from: Lunamancer;1101664Awesome! I hope it goes well. My advice would be, try not to get hung up on rules. Remember Abilities are broadly defined. Err on the side of allowing players to try things and using their Abilities. And the game numbers are tools and there to help you. Feel free to do with them what you will.

I can tell you my understanding of the rules and how I do it.

The short answer is: Only the Activator must be inside the protection circle, and need only remain there long enough to issue a command.

Summoning in general works like this:

As always, thank you for your clarifications and interpretations. Both equally valuable to me.

I just wanted to say that the adventure was great. As one shot, the players managed to do a lot of spell casting, combat and other skills. Since we really had a condensed adventure, and I had to speed up the pase and cut content, we didn't touch de concept of summoning and other general skills.

Now, my overall experience was great. The game run easier than I expected, and the players caught the rules after a few rolls. Also, all the players agreed that would like to keep playing the game - and with a group of limited time, that's a great compliment

Quote from: Rithuan;1103254As always, thank you for your clarifications and interpretations. Both equally valuable to me.

I just wanted to say that the adventure was great. As one shot, the players managed to do a lot of spell casting, combat and other skills. Since we really had a condensed adventure, and I had to speed up the pase and cut content, we didn't touch de concept of summoning and other general skills.

Yeah, summonings are extremely potent, but there are a lot of good reasons to not use them. There are the risks. There's also the time it takes to prepare the summoning circles, which means they won't be helpful in combat or other critical situations unless they are planned in advance. And the third reason is the AEP cost. One of the Avatars I play in a weekly game summoned a deital minion for the first time. This requires successful activation of the Invocation of Glory and the Summoning Rite. She got the Invocation but failed the Rite. So made a second attempt, getting both the second time. Still, that's two major and two extreme activations. 44 AEPs right there, out of her 60 total. Doesn't leave you with a lot of fire power for future activations.

QuoteNow, my overall experience was great. The game run easier than I expected, and the players caught the rules after a few rolls. Also, all the players agreed that would like to keep playing the game - and with a group of limited time, that's a great compliment

Glad to hear it worked out well.

I think what really works for new players is the fact that the percentile system is so intuitive, and the character creation system allowed you to create some really cool characters. Again, glad it worked for your group!

I have a quick question. Where can I find the time (in ABC) that takes a regular melee attack? I found the bow and throwing weapons, but no melee. Might be that I'm tired

Btw, I finally saw the Lejendary Adventure community on FB. I don't have a FB account, but I can see the post. Good times!

Quote from: Rithuan;1106019I have a quick question. Where can I find the time (in ABC) that takes a regular melee attack? I found the bow and throwing weapons, but no melee. Might be that I'm tired

Last item on the list, "Weapon discharge or wielding to attack and defend: 1 ABC"

But keep in mind, Kobolds can attack twice per ABC. Avatars adjusted Speed 17+ may also opt to make 2 or 3 attacks depending on Weapons Ability. Certain extraordinary swords also increase number of attacks. Avatars with Unarmed Combat ability can get 3 hand strikes.

So the way I would read it is, engaging in melee takes 1 ABC. The number of attacks and/or counter attacks that involves can vary. The idea is you one thing each ABC--other than perhaps those things on the free action list. So you can move. You can attack. Not both. I'm pretty sure advancing hastily attack should be 22 1/2 feet rather than 21 1/2 feet. If you look at all the other movement actions, it seems to use increments of 2 1/2 feet, so if you're using a battle map, the scale would be a 2 1/2 foot grid. You can advance cautiously 3 squares, hastily 9 squares, move backwards 1 square, and sideways 2 squares in one ABC.

QuoteBtw, I finally saw the Lejendary Adventure community on FB. I don't have a FB account, but I can see the post. Good times!

Yeah, there's some good stuff up there.

Quote from: Lunamancer;1106312Last item on the list, "Weapon discharge or wielding to attack and defend: 1 ABC"

Would you believe me that I couldn't find it in the LR4AP (player's handbook, for our still interested readers). Also, I'm sure is not mentioned in the essential rules. Thanks again Lunamancer.

I have two other players interested in a one shot. Better start the Character creation ASAP. Still takes me a lot of time.

I have another question, but more on the realm of house rules: do you know an alternative rule for improvised magic? I think my only true difficulty with this game is learning the activations (spells). That's true for any kind of game with spell list. - Thank you!

Quote from: Rithuan;1106748Would you believe me that I couldn't find it in the LR4AP (player's handbook, for our still interested readers). Also, I'm sure is not mentioned in the essential rules. Thanks again Lunamancer.

Maybe some day we'll have a searchable text.

QuoteI have two other players interested in a one shot. Better start the Character creation ASAP. Still takes me a lot of time.

I came up with some quick Avatar creation rules and posted them on the FB group.

For each base rating and ability, roll the indicated dice. Results less than the indicated minimum are treated as if the minimum were rolled. Results greater than the indicated maximum are treated as if the maximum were rolled.

Health = 6d20 (45 to 85)
Precision = 5d20 (30 to 65)
Speed = 2d20 half points (9 to 15)
1st Ability = 5d20 (50 to 80)
2nd Ability = 4d20 (40 to 60)
3rd Ability = 3d20 (30 to 45)
4th Ability = 2d20 (20 to 30)
5th Ability = 1d20 (10 to 15)

Pick equipment and go.

No adjusting BRs by Ability choice selection or any of that. It only works for human Avatars. If you want it to go real fast, stick with cookie-cutter Ordered Avatars. The resulting Avatars tend to be on par with ones generated by the book, but some will be stronger, some will be weaker. I originally created this for high death rate campaigns so a player can generate a new Avatar in under 10 minutes and jump right back into the game.

I've also been working on equipment packs to even speed up that part of it. I'm doing three packs for each order, so it's a bit of work. There is a little bit of flexibility within each pack. Here's Option A for Desperado Order Avatars.

half leather armor
long dagger
small crossbow
quarrel box, waist belt
20 quarrels
good clothing, colorful, dark, or light suit
hat
cloak, colorfull or light without hood
narrow leather belt
low hard-soled boots
2 leather belt pouches
cloth shoulder pouch with sling
large heavy sack with 10' leather thong neck wrap
30' rope
grapnel
candle lantern
tinder box
torch
file and lock pick in leather case
hammer and metal-cutting chisel
small jimmy bar
pry bar
small metal saw
small wood saw
jug of beer, 1 quart
bread and cheese for one person for four days
two-pound sausage
[low table pick]
[middle table pick]
[special table pick]


It's not a bad idea for new players to just have them play an ordered human Avatar by my quick creation method, especially for a one-shot, so that they get the hang of how the game works and what all the abilities do, then make their own once they have some basis of knowledge.

QuoteI have another question, but more on the realm of house rules: do you know an alternative rule for improvised magic? I think my only true difficulty with this game is learning the activations (spells). That's true for any kind of game with spell list. - Thank you!

If you think about it, the Heart's Desire power is basically free form magic.

One of the tricky things is, because starting Avatars are already quite capable--roughly equivalent to 3rd to 6th level D&D characters rather than 1st level ones--activators tend to start with a lot of powers and it is a lot to learn. A few things you could do to make it more manageable: 1) There are lists of powers in the back of Beasts of Lejend, mainly meant for LMs needing to quickly pick powers for NACs, and just limit play to those powers for the time being. It's a much shorter, simpler list for you to learn. 2) You can forbid the Extraordinary Orders from the game initially, allowing Avatars to choose an Extraordinary Ability as their free 5th Ability. This will greatly limit the number of equipment picks they get for powers so you only have to learn the small number of powers players have picked.

As for a free-form system, you can of course just always do whatever you want. Where it gets tricky--and this is with any RPG, especially those that use free form magic--is gauging what is appropriate potency of the power.

For offensive powers, the main offsetting factors are going to be activation time vs range. Long activation times can be offset if they work at great ranges because the time it takes the enemy to get to the activator gives extra time to complete the application. Conversely, at short ranges, it's very difficult to get off long activations. Secondary off-setting factors would be Harm vs AEP cost. Assuming you've gotten range balanced with activation time, if you more harm is desired, it should require the investment of additional AEPs. A lot of Geourgy powers provide some good guidance here. Those variable grade ones, such as Earth Hammer, or Ice Spear, are good examples. You might also compare and contrast to Dazzling Dagger and Dazzling Dread from Enchantment. Shadow Bolts is a great example of a super fast acting, super potent offensive power that sucks up half your AEPs in one shot. I recommend ignoring the "update" in Essentials that lists Shadow Bolts as variable grade. Greater activation time for maxing it out hamstrings its usefulness.

For defensive or buffing powers, the main offsetting factors are going to be activation time vs duration. It's not a big deal if an activation takes 4 ABCs to complete if it lasts 6 hours. You can easily do it at the start of the adventure and re-up during rest periods. If the duration is short, though, such that it has to be activated in the heat of combat, it's going to be difficult to complete anything higher than Good grade. The potency of the buff or defense should be weighed against AEP cost. Something with a duration of 5 minutes to an hour is ideal for prepping for a single battle. But if the effect of the power is going to be in the order of 10-20 points of harm, or points of AP, for multiple party members, it should cost a good percentage of the activators AEPs. But duration also needs to be checked by potency. You don't want something with so long a duration that it will essentially be "always on" having massive unmitigated defensive of buffing capacity. The Personal Armor and Personal Shielding powers from Enchantment, and Grant Might, Grant Puissance from Theurgy gives you an idea of the upper bounds of effectiveness.

For everything else, I'm not sure what guidance I can offer, and I don't know that I can even point to good examples in the game. In the campaign where I'm a player, the first bunch of adventures my mage was able to effectively divide-and-conquer each enemy by using Conjured Closure to shut and lock doors. It doesn't take much time or AEPs. I thought it was over-powered. And Elephant of Surprise I hadn't been able to use at all. Not a once. I thought that was underpowered to the point of being useless. But now I haven't used conjured closure in months because we haven't had many indoor combats, and Elephant of Surprise I just used in back-to-back sessions. So much varies by circumstance, it's hard to say what's fair or not when going free form.

Hello everyone. I'm back again. This time, I am preparing a campaign with Lejendary Adventure.

I have one question (probably for Lunamancer). What ability is used for throwing knives? Weapons, Archery, or Minstrelsy?

Thank you!

Quote from: Rithuan;1134158Hello everyone. I'm back again. This time, I am preparing a campaign with Lejendary Adventure.

I have one question (probably for Lunamancer). What ability is used for throwing knives? Weapons, Archery, or Minstrelsy?

Thank you!

Weapons, enhanced by Minstrelsy. That is, each 10 points of Minstrelsy Ability possessed adds +1% to hit and +1 to harm.

I have considered allowing Avatars to use their full Minstrelsy Ability in lieu of Weapons Ability in cases where Minstrelsy Ability is higher, but I feel like Minstrelsy is already crammed full of tons of cool stuff--defensive bonus (even when armored), attack bonus for thrown weapons, parrying, and it helps with just about any sort of atheltic activity. Sometimes in adventures it's allowable as an alternative to Precision to escape something or maintain balance. And of course on top of that is all the actual minstrel stuff.

Thanks for the reply, Lunamancer.
BTW, the post about quick avatar creation, is stellar.
I might consider creating a quick list of equipment. When an alfar character has 16 picks on the low list, it's just dull. I wasted more time in this step than any other step (trying to help my players, and avoiding spending picks in clothes and shoes)

One thing I've found helps to get through equipment picks faster, but is also a great way of organizing the character sheet so you can see more readily during play what your character has and can do, is to organize equipment according to the following categories:
Armaments (Weapons & Armor)
Clothing
Containers (Backpacks, sacks, pouches, chests, etc)
Herbs (including Poisons, Antidotes, Remedies, and Salves)
Lighting
Provisions
Tools
Transportation (horses, wagons, etc)
Wealth (coin of the realm)
Other (Miscellaneous Items and Extraordinary Objects)

These categories emerged as I was creating the different Equipment Packs. If you try to have at least one item in each category (save perhaps Extraordinary Objects for starting Avatars), you'll find equipment picks go pretty fast and seem too few rather than too many.

That certainly helps. I'll consider doing something similar. Especially if you have to pick belts and shoes as part of your starting equipment. Who starts with gold pieces in his or her pocket, and no shoes?

I have another question. Have you ever converted monsters from D&D (any edition) to LA? I have seen some guidelines on how to do it with PC, but not monsters. As always, thank you!

Quote from: Rithuan;1135979That certainly helps. I'll consider doing something similar. Especially if you have to pick belts and shoes as part of your starting equipment. Who starts with gold pieces in his or her pocket, and no shoes?

I have another question. Have you ever converted monsters from D&D (any edition) to LA? I have seen some guidelines on how to do it with PC, but not monsters. As always, thank you!

Yes, I have. And I've got a strong math background. I've plugged away at doing an accurate conversion system for 20 years now, revising and refining. What I've got now is pretty accurate.

Converting D&D hit points to LA Health
Health = 14 + 2 x hit points

Converting THAC0 to Precision
Precision = (26 - THAC0) x 5%

Speed roughly equals movement rate.

Converting D&D AC to LA Armor Protection
AP = 13 - AC

Converting D&D damage to LA Harm
The base weapon damage in D&D is d6, in LA it's d20. Since LA health totals are 2 times D&D hit point totals (setting aside the 14 point kicker), damage above and beyond d6 should be roughly doubled in LA.



If I were going to convert, say, the Stone Giant to LA, then, it would look something like this:
Health: 84 - 114, Precision: 70, Speed: 12
Attack: 1-20+14
Defense: 13 AP

Compare this to the LA Giant from Beasts of Lejend
Health: 101-120, Precision: 46-65, Speed: 6 attacking, 18 moving
Attack: 1-20+14
Defense: 9 AP


Here's how I would polish it up.

LA tends to make creatures tougher by giving them more AP rather than more health. Each point of difference in AP equates to about a 10% adjustment in Health. In the case of giants, though, it's almost the opposite. They're more beef than tank. So if I'm trying to split the difference to make the Stone Giant fit the LA mold a little better, I'd knock the AP down to 11, bump Health up to 101-140. (BTW, I got the range by plugging 9d8 into anydice.com, and going from average +/- standard deviation, then converting each of those numbers per my formula above to get the min and max of the range.)

I would also fit the movement rate to the distinction LA uses between attacking and moving. Since 12 is the average anyway, I'll just copy the LA giant movement scheme.

I did choose this example to simultaneously demonstrate how accurate this conversion system is. You can see the Stone Giant converted from D&D is a lot like the LA giant, just a little tougher (sometimes) in health, strikes with a better precision, and a couple extra points of armor.

Enlightening as always, Luna. Thank you so much for sharing this. It helped me a lot to set a standard for monsters in my current campaign.

It's the first time work closely with the Beast of Lejend book (Monster Manual) to recreate a monster based on the description. Long story short, the setting "Hot Springs Island" comes with monster descriptions but no stats, so I'm converting the obvious (a Boar) and inventing the not that obvious (Obsidian Giant).

In this process, I re-reviewed the rules regarding armor and found a few surprises.

1.- Per LR4AP and Essential, additional damage as magical weapons or bonuses (and here, I imagine bonuses by skill as Chivalry, Physic, Tricks) bypass armor. This rule might be ignored considering the specific magical armor or monster protection. Is this correct? Do you use it that way?

So far, the magical armors on the Lejend Master Lore do not include any text regarding "ignoring the normal source of damage" they only grant additional protection. On the other hand, there are several monsters (ghosts and spirits) who ignore normal damage sources. Other duplicate protections against specific sources of damage (eg.: Slimes). What are your thoughts?

2.- Per Errata (2000) and FAQ, we also have this explanation:

QuoteWhere a normal attack is against Extraordinary armor/protection of preternatural sort, only preternatural or supernatural harm will bypass such armor.
Where a normal attack is against Extraordinary armor/protection of supernatural sort, only supernatural harm will bypass such armor.

In this revised version, does this mean that skill bonuses do not surpass armor protection*?
*: unless we use the bypass armor rule :-/

Thank you!

Quote from: Rithuan;1141855Enlightening as always, Luna. Thank you so much for sharing this. It helped me a lot to set a standard for monsters in my current campaign.

It's the first time work closely with the Beast of Lejend book (Monster Manual) to recreate a monster based on the description. Long story short, the setting "Hot Springs Island" comes with monster descriptions but no stats, so I'm converting the obvious (a Boar) and inventing the not that obvious (Obsidian Giant).

In this process, I re-reviewed the rules regarding armor and found a few surprises.

Quote1.- Per LR4AP and Essential, additional damage as magical weapons or bonuses (and here, I imagine bonuses by skill as Chivalry, Physic, Tricks) bypass armor. This rule might be ignored considering the specific magical armor or monster protection. Is this correct? Do you use it that way?

For Avatars, only extraordinary harm ignores armor--preternatural, supernatural, elemental, unnatural (nether), VT, and so on. Physique bonus, as well as all harm bonus due to skill, is subject to armor protection.
For beasts--particularly strong animals and monsters--the bonus harm does bypass armor.
So if you're being gored by a rhino, it will cause 13-20 harm (d20 with a minimum of 13) that can be blocked by armor, +1-10 that armor will not protect against. So say I roll 14 and 6 on the harm dice. I would announce, "14 harm, plus 6 that ignores armor."
For monsters defense, something like animal hide which is literally all-over the animal without any gaps to exploit, you might rule this natural armor will not be bypassed (it's usually a very low number like 2-4 or so).

QuoteSo far, the magical armors on the Lejend Master Lore do not include any text regarding "ignoring the normal source of damage" they only grant additional protection. On the other hand, there are several monsters (ghosts and spirits) who ignore normal damage sources. Other duplicate protections against specific sources of damage (eg.: Slimes). What are your thoughts?

Yes, extraordinary armor simply adds to armor protection. However, in the appropriate cases, they may also provide a defense against harm that would otherwise ignore armor. The harm bonus on a supernatural weapon, for instance, can be blocked by supernatural armor. Elemental harm, such as a fiery bolt, which normally ignores armor, will be absorbed by a Flame Byrnie.

Ghosts & Spritis are a real problem in LA. Most parties, especially if you're accustomed to other D&D and most other RPGs, are not going to have any means to defeat spirits. Extraordinary harm can work. Extraordinary activations can work, too. Some powers do specifically bar spirits or negate their attacks. When you get a little wiser about it, players are careful to select powers such as Sacred Precincts, Spirit Low, Free Will Feeding (this is a really cool Psychogenic power that costs 5 AEPs to activate, but you leach 1-12 Health/Free Will from spirits, adding that number to your AEPs, so on average, on net, you will actually gain AEPs!!),  Elemental Protection, and of course Ecclesiastics have several such powers. Two Extraordinary weapons are highly effective against spirits--Demon Darkwhip and the Unhallowed Bane Axe.

Quote2.- Per Errata (2000) and FAQ, we also have this explanation:

In this revised version, does this mean that skill bonuses do not surpass armor protection*?
*: unless we use the bypass armor rule :-/

This bit of errata is really good for simplifying things. I still prefer to allow 10% of ordinary harm to bypass Preternatural Armor on an armor bypassing hit, and 10% of Preternatural Harm to bypass Supernatural armor on a bypassing hit. It's never going to amount to more than a point or 2. It's like an extension of the strong hit rule.

Thanks again for your reply! Sorry, it took me this long to thank you. Not enough time for gaming these days.
I have a question, but in this case, it's more about preference. How do you track encumbrance or equipment carried in your games? Since most items don't have weight, and there is no hard rule for this in the game (except a mention on Physique ability)

I'm planing on using a slot base inventory, where excess of weights reduce speed for combat and movement (similar to armors). I'm interesting on hear your thoughts on this.

Big picture? Same way I handle encumbrance in D&D. Which takes a bit of explaining.


My main rule is that you have to be able to explain how you're carrying everything in order to be able to carry it all. When it comes to players outfitting their Avatars for adventure, I find they rarely want to resort to strained explanations for justifying carrying a ton of stuff. Because they know it can come back to bite them if they ever need to grab an item directly during the adventure. Because players tend to remain reasonable like this, if I go add up the D&D encumbrance of what they're carrying, I find rarely if ever will it cause them to move into the next encumbrance category. In other words, I can literally ignore encumbrance and still be playing identically to running it by the book.

And so my conclusion is that the main purpose of encumbrance is for that return journey when adventurers are laden with treasure. It's not just a limit on how much treasure they can haul out, but it also burdens them to present a new challenge on the return journey, even when they're retreading the exact same ground they've just covered.


So if I'm doing LA, I'm mainly concerned with the weight of the treasure, not the weight of their gear. And of course the value of treasure in LA is already linked to the metal weight. For gear normally carried, I would just assume Avatars are carrying the equivalent of a 20-pound pack for their normal equipment, resulting in 10% Speed loss. (As a house rule, I like to tweak this, making it 1 point of Speed loss for each 10% of bodyweight in equipment carried and assume the standard pack is 10% of the Avatar's body weight). This penalty is negated if the Avatar has Physique Ability of 20 or higher.

Hi Lunamancer,


Thank's for your reply. Interesting way to deal with it. I love the idea of counting it when it matters: when you need to drag treasure... or a fallen friend.

I have a question: How do you deal with armor in general? 20 pounds of equipment might be spent already (or about to be spent) depending on the armor type.


Speaking of armors, is my idea or the numbers for magic armors is wrong? (LML p47) For example, the Leather armor of equal quality of enchantment is equal or worst than cloth armor. Supposedly, cheaper to buy, sell, or enchant.


cloth armor (full) is 6 to 7 armor (1 speed)
Leather armor (full) 8 to 9 armor (1 to 1.5 speed)


cloth armor (full) preternatural [Moderate]: 10 armor and (0.5 speed)
Leather armor (full) preternatural [Moderate]:  10 armor and (0.5 speed)


cloth armor (full) supernatural [Very Good]: 14 armor and (0.5 speed)
Leather armor (full) supernatural [Very Good]: 12 armor and (0.5 speed)

Quote from: Rithuan on September 09, 2020, 09:39:37 PM

Hi Lunamancer,


Thank's for your reply. Interesting way to deal with it. I love the idea of counting it when it matters: when you need to drag treasure... or a fallen friend.

I tend to 80/20 most things. 80% of anything that will come up in the game can probably be fully (BtB) handled by just using 20% of the rules. The other 80% of the rules are for those 20% edge cases.

QuoteI have a question: How do you deal with armor in general? 20 pounds of equipment might be spent already (or about to be spent) depending on the armor type.

I don't count armor worn at all. There is already a Speed penalty associated with armor. In AD&D 1E, a foot note way in the back of the DMG in a section on encumbrance lists a set of ordinary clothing as 30 cn encumbrance, unless they're the set being worn, then they have 0 encumbrance. So I apply the same idea here. Again, armors already have a speed penalty, I see no reason to double-dip on this.

QuoteSpeaking of armors, is my idea or the numbers for magic armors is wrong? (LML p47) For example, the Leather armor of equal quality of enchantment is equal or worst than cloth armor. Supposedly, cheaper to buy, sell, or enchant.

I tend to think of enchanted cloth armors, especially full cloth, like they're magical Enchanters' robes. But if the discrepancy doesn't square with you, just swap the AP values. It wouldn't be the only example of some of the specs seeming off on extraordinary items. For another example, check out LML pg 50-51, pay particular attention to the Banderlog King Armbands versus the Bracers of Titanic Physique. Both confer 100 Physique Ability. But the Banderlog King Armbands further grant brachiating ability. Yet the bracers are listed as a higher grade item. My brother for his campaign has simply ruled the Banderlog King Armbands only confer 50 Physique Ability.

The way I keep extraordinary leather armor competitive with extraordinary cloth armor is, for purposes of harm to the armor, I allow fire harm to harm cloth armor more easily than leather. That is, fire harm of equal type or better (in terms of natural, preternatural, or supernatural) will accrue harm to the armor in addition to its wearer. Whereas leather is only affected by fire harm of at least one grade higher (magical fire or supernatural affects ordinary leather armor, only supernatural fire affects preternatural leather, and supernatural leather is unaffected by fire. Note in no case does the armor reduce fire harm to the Avatar unless specifically proof against fire (such as the Flame Byrnie). This consideration is only for tracking harm done to armor (and it is difficult to harm extraordinary armors in any event).