Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414552*Shrug*

You think there's some imperative that they ought to have the same culture?

Not at all. There are however different qualities to different cultures, and I vastly prefer an environment where people can speak their minds, with them working things out, or not, at their own pace, rather than feel like I have some kid, poser douchebag or whoever tell me what to do in every single conversation I choose to take part in.

What I really do not appreciate in RPGnet's culture is that it fosters a sense of common wisdom and political correctness which are basically impossible to challenge, either because some asshole will get upset about it and resort to back-handed tactics to get the discussion to crash and some of its participants baited and banned, or because it challenges some idea the mods just do not want to see discussed on the boards.

In other words, I value free speech in all its fucked up glory. I like to talk about whatever I want, however I want. I'm an adult, and I don't need people to tell me what to think, how to think, or whether what I think is "appropriate" (to what? To whom?) or not.

RPGnet's culture is shit. Period.

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414552Because I can see benefits in variety, and nothing at all on the side of identical-ness to set against that.

RPGnet kills differing opinions, kills freedom of speech. Kills variety.

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414552*Shrug*

You think there's some imperative that they ought to have the same culture?

Because I can see benefits in variety, and nothing at all on the side of identical-ness to set against that.

No, there isn't any imperative of the sort. And in fact, its obviously to theRPGsite's benefit that RPG.net NOT have the same culture, otherwise theRPGsite would become kind of redundant.  But as it stands, RPG.net's culture is apalling and theRPGsite becomes the most important RPG-discussion site on the internet on account of that, because we're the biggest one that is around for general RPG-talk where we are: A) still actually about RPGs and B) not concerned about having an "emotionally safe environment" where you can't talk about pole-arms without someone accusing you of being a sexist tool of the patriarchy or refer to a hypothetical character as "he or she" without having the Transgender-pack accuse of you of being oppressively bigoted against hermaphrodites (and where if they did, you could safely tell them to go fuck themselves).

What I really find amusing, however, is that RPG.net seems to recognize its own weakness. If it believed, if it really honestly believed that people would generally be happier with a high-moderation speech-repressive environment like their own when presented with the honest and equal choice, they wouldn't be going out of their way to try to: A) censor all links and connections to theRPGsite and B) having hte modclique going out of their way to slander and make up outright lies about the environment here in the hopes that it will discourage regular roleplayers from even bothering to check the place out.
But they do both, all the time.
So that can only tell me they're scared. Shit, if they weren't, if they honestly believed that they'd fare well in a straightforward presentation of opposing schools of thought, then we'd be the answer to their prayers: they could put up a link saying "if you want a place to talk RPGs where you aren't restrained in your speech, go to theRPGsite" (we could also, I suppose, put up one saying "If you want an emotionally safe environment where people won't be able to tell you to go fuck your mother, go to RPG.net").  Now, I would gladly put up the latter, but I suspect that NEVER IN A THOUSAND YEARS would the modclique put up the former, because somewhere deep down they recognize the weakness that theRPGsite's very existence puts them in, again, not that thousands would suddenly and permanently migrate over here, but that it would call into question the justifications of why they do a whole lot of questionable shit as mods (the claim that without strong and strict moderation, you'd just end up with an animal house where interesting discussions would be impossible). The RPGsite is absolute proof that this is untrue; you can question whether we're an animal house, but the success of this site demonstrates the incredible richness of discussion that blooms when people don't have the banhammer looming over their very thoughts.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Benoist;414567RPGnet kills differing opinions, kills freedom of speech. Kills variety.

*Shrug*

I don't think that's the case.  Simple as that.

Quote from: RPGPundit;414569The RPGsite is absolute proof that this is untrue; you can question whether we're an animal house, but the success of this site demonstrates the incredible richness of discussion that blooms when people don't have the banhammer looming over their very thoughts.

I see no 'richness'.  All the discussions here look the same to me; they look like people being dicks, to each other and to others that are absent.  They sure do look to be enjoying the hell out of it, and sometimes, so do I.  But that's pretty much all I see.  And this is weird to me, because individually, I've had decent conversations with almost everyone here.

No lies are required to call your forum nasty and awful, man.  Most of the time, it sure does look like that.  Maybe not to you, but to me, and I think to most people.

Nor are any lies required to dismiss you as a hate-monger.  In general, you sure do sound like one.

Levi, if you think that, you're not really paying attention to what is discussed here outside of a few troll threads.

Folks, RPG.net isn't worth discussing unless you're a member there, and even then it's only barely worth discussing.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;414577Levi, if you think that, you're not really paying attention to what is discussed here outside of a few troll threads.

Could be.  I swing by every few weeks, and only sometimes do I see a title that makes me say "Ohh.  I should look at that".  

And every time, I wince.  Every few months, I post for a day or two.  You know the rest.

It's a legitimate viewpoint to someone who just dips in - which might very well put off some new posters. Delve deeper and you find more.

The nastiness just isn't hidden under a veneer of civility. You can be civil or not, but you don't need to hide it if you're royally pissed over something.

I mean, if we're going to play the nasty game, i can't tell you how many unpleasant PMs i've got at RPGnet. Mostly from the Poison'd shitstorms, but still.

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414578Could be.  I swing by every few weeks, and only sometimes do I see a title that makes me say "Ohh.  I should look at that".  

And every time, I wince.  Every few months, I post for a day or two.  You know the rest.

There's a platitude about books and their covers that seems relevant here.

There's plenty of fine threads here with substantive content about playing the game. They tend not to have attention-grabbing headlines because they aren't troll threads. Try clicking on them instead.

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414573I see no 'richness'.

My God. Are you blind as a bat.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;414580Try clicking on them instead.

....After a rummage through each of the threads of the first page, I will admit to seeing less dickery than I have come to expect on previous visits.  The threads with interesting titles do seem to be the hotspots.  And, yes, more of an atmosphere of "we all know each other well" - the tribal thing, in the more genial sense.  RPGnet is big enough that the only place I tend to see that is on the side boards.

But I haven't seen any actual content that I couldn't get "at home", in a style that I'm overall more comfortable with, and without being suddenly called a twat when I'm trying to do something engaging.

*Shrug*

It is more than I expected, though, I'll say that for sure.

Levi,

 Are you being condescending intentionally or by accident?

There are plenty of good threads on here.

Of course it helps to visit more often than once every five months.


- Ed C.

The truth is that 98% of the threads on here have little conflict and lots of open and dynamic discussion. On RPG.net, 98% of the threads (and I mean the threads on the RPG section, which is of course a minority of the site, I'll remind everyone again) consist of mindless jabbering with little interesting discussion at all, because the environment is one of constantly walking on eggshells.

Here, there's 2% outright flaming.  Over there, there's 2% useful content. I'd say our ratio works out much better.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Koltar;414618Are you being condescending intentionally or by accident?

Neither, exactly.

I can't discuss anything comfortably when I expect to be called a sack of shit again at any moment (See: Pundit on the volunteer team I'm part of).  It may be a weird defense, but there it is.  Apologies to you, though.

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;414616But I haven't seen any actual content that I couldn't get "at home", in a style that I'm overall more comfortable with, and without being suddenly called a twat when I'm trying to do something engaging.

*Shrug*

It is more than I expected, though, I'll say that for sure.

Maybe it's that you're taking the liberty of being on RPGsite to use an uncharacteristically slithery voice, but this is a good distillation of the tone that keeps me off of RPG.net.

But I'm more comfortable playing the dozens if I want. Goes without saying RPG.net has a huge number of threads, but from when I do browse around, I don't see content I couldn't get "at home" either.

Obviously, RPG.net doesn't need to please me or any other given poster. RPGsite not needing to please you or any other given poster doesn't mean that all the threads here are just thinly veiled excuses for us to say "Y'all's faggots" back and forth.

Comments from Dan Davenport regarding the environment and the modclique at RPG.net:

QuoteI have to tell you, I feel a lot better since being de-Modded. I can't abide double-standards -- let alone double-standards serving as the basis for unwritten rules.

Back in the day, Tangency was created as a sewer to drain off the off-topic crap that was drowning out the discussion of RPGs. But as sewers are wont to do, it spawned its own life -- in this case, a liberal hivemind.

Now it's come to the point that going head-to-head with the Tangency Hivemind is considered "trolling". You can approach a subject from the right in the exact same way as the Hivemind approaches it from the left and get called on the carpet for disturbing the peace. Disrupting the political circle-jerk simply isn't allowed.

To make matters worse, discussing this state of affairs isn't allowed, either. The Powers That Be want peace before fairness, but they don't want to admit that that's what they want. Hence, there's this tripwire just waiting for anyone willing to return the Hivemind's fire.

Anyway... I'm done with all that now. It's back to focusing on RPGs for me.

We've butted heads before, Pundit, but I appreciate your supportive words.

This is from my blog.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;414631Comments from Dan Davenport regarding the environment and the modclique at RPG.net:

This is from my blog.

RPGPundit

Wow. I didn't know Dan Davenport was de-pantsed.

And Levi's still in complete denial.