To cleanse our lives of this blight which we have lived under since '07 and prepare for the rebirth of D&D we cordially invite you to join us in a burning of 4.0 materials. This will be a not child friendly, booze filled party worthy of adventurers. Dress as your favorite class or wear you sexiest black t-shirt. Anyone else who'd like to celebrate is welcome to attend.
"AI" sys the man with one arm in the broken down ale house. Grizzled and old, scared, he sits in the corner nursing a broken mug of cheap rank ale. "From the earliest days of exploring the dungeons we've known about it. The fancy feats, the weapon schools, the cantrips ... these things distract you. Remember the wisdom of old and apply your new training! The crowbar! The blanket! The bag of chickens!" He calms down again and with cold steel in his voice says: "We know how to kill an abomination." ... His voice lowers to just a whisper ... "Kill it with fire."
Friday, July 11th in Indianapolis. Large wooded lot in the heart of Indy. Details appearing shortly on the Indy meetup site.
In the heart of indy? Like near memorial circle?
Dumb
I'm up in Madison County and am no friend to 4e, but I'm betting selling it at Half-Price books over in Fishers would be better. Then you could buy more gaming stuff!
Still, not my stuff—burn away, if you like!
With Gen Con soon approach, there has to be another means of disposal, though. Something pointless and hilarious, all at once!
Too bad I gave away my 4e books like 4-5 years ago because that might be fun. :D
He's just joking, because as any good Hoosier knows, Indy has no heart. :D
Quote from: dragoner;755716He's just joking, because as any good Hoosier knows, Indy has no heart. :D
Ouch! I thought that was only Peyton Manning?
Quote from: dragoner;755716He's just joking, because as any good Hoosier knows, Indy has no heart. :D
Heh!
There's a breaded pork tenderloin where my heart should be. Working on that, though. :)
Holy crap, I forget how many of us live around Indy. I moved a bit further NE, out of Hamilton County, but there's a reason the gaming scene is pretty good around here.
Did you know that the pork tenderloin was voted something like 45th-worst regiona (http://deadspin.com/the-great-american-menu-foods-of-the-states-ranked-an-1349137024)l food item? Philistines!
We're up at 65th & Allisonville, which is close enough to the circle to quality as "heart." :)
We're also doing a 9am-9m 5e marathon gaming session, with multiple tables, the Saturday after the game releases. That IS on the meetup cal already.
You know, you could do a lot of things with your 4e books. But burning them to celebrate the return of D&D while drinking and swapping stories seems like the best use I can think of.
EDIT: I thought of a book burning at Scotties, during GenCon, since they have a fire pit, as an official event. Didn't think it would fly though.
Mmm ... breaded tenderloin. /drool
Yep, there are a lot of us around here.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;755719Did you know that the pork tenderloin was voted something like 45th-worst regiona (http://deadspin.com/the-great-american-menu-foods-of-the-states-ranked-an-1349137024)l food item? Philistines!
We're up at 65th & Allisonville, which is close enough to the circle to quality as "heart." :)
We're also doing a 9am-9m 5e marathon gaming session, with multiple tables, the Saturday after the game releases. That IS on the meetup cal already.
You know, you could do a lot of things with your 4e books. But burning them to celebrate the return of D&D while drinking and swapping stories seems like the best use I can think of.
EDIT: I thought of a book burning at Scotties, during GenCon, since they have a fire pit, as an official event. Didn't think it would fly though.
If you're set on it, you're welcome to come up to the gun range here as a guest and do some "target practice".
And yes! What a ridiculous ranking! The breaded pork tenderloin is an institution! It is a proud Hoosier legacy--sure, part of that legacy is early death from heart disease, but it's a delicious way to go!
This website has officially jumped the shark.
Quote from: J Arcane;755723This website has officially jumped the shark.
Fuck yeah.
Meh I don't get all the hate heaped on 4e. My group played it pretty much the same as 1e, 2, e,3e and everything else we've played.
Quote from: Bunch;755731Meh I don't get all the hate heaped on 4e. My group played it pretty much the same as 1e, 2, e,3e and everything else we've played.
Don't worry, it's just a tribal display. Like burning an Israeli flag.
Quote from: J Arcane;755723This website has officially jumped the shark.
Does that make Pundit Fonzie?
What a ridiculous waste of perfectly good beer pitcher coasters. Those table ring don't prevent themselves, y'know.
Quote from: Zachary The First;755714I'm up in Madison County and am no friend to 4e, but I'm betting selling it at Half-Price books over in Fishers would be better. Then you could buy more gaming stuff!
This.
Burning gaming material I've paid good euros for? Are you crazy? I would sell it, and with the money I get, I would buy gaming material that I like.
I plan to keep my copies around as a visual lesson about wasting money. ;)
Quote from: dragoner;755716He's just joking, because as any good Hoosier knows, Indy has no heart. :D
KALI-MAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
(Indy...heart...just go with me on this one)
You can burn most of the 4E books, but I am keeping the Dark Sun one because it is good.
Quote from: Bill;755750You can burn most of the 4E books, but I am keeping the Dark Sun one because it is good.
I'm partial to the Dungeon Master's Guide II and the Monster Manuals myself.
Although really, book burning is just so tacky in that 1930s Europe kind of way.
LOL. I commend the OP's efforts but 4th edition was created in the realm of Baator and therefore immune to fire.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;755757LOL. I commend the OP's efforts but 4th edition was created in the realm of Baator and therefore immune to fire.
It's ok. The burning is symbolic. I got a jug of muriatic acid and we're going to use some of Zachary's magic missiles first.
Seriously.
I'm going to say something I've tried to not say on this site, or any site, to anyone. Ever.
Fuck you.
I don't like 4E, I don't care about it, it wasn't fun. Yet I say this anyway.
Book burners suck. Its a stupid and wasteful behavior.
Sell it. Trade it. Give it to someone. Donate it to Good will
Do something to let someone get a benefit out of it. . Anything, but burning or destroying it.
No matter how much you don't like it.
Book burning???
Wow.
Quote from: Bill;755750You can burn most of the 4E books, but I am keeping the Dark Sun one because it is good.
That's the one Campaign book I didn't get because I've been coin tossing which way I will be going when I finally get a crew to do a Dark Sun campaign. I've heard good things so its on my get-list.
BTW kids...don't sell your 4e books now. I've been on eBay for many years and traditionally it becomes a cheapo glut for buyers right before a new edition, but then 2-3 years into the edition, the nostalgia kicks in and people start paying a premium for the prior edition books.
FYI, the OSR and 5e hype has blossomed the TSR market on eBay in the last several months with high prices I've never seen before. I expect that to hold strong for the first year of 5e. After that, who knows.
Some people are sensitive to book burning, and considering history, it's understandable. On the other hand, there should be a responsible way to dispose of unwanted books that someone believes are not worth sharing for one reason or another.
I suggest recycling. It takes the book out of circulation and turns it into something useful, like boxes, a new and hopefully better book, or low-grade office bathroom quality toilet paper.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;755748KALI-MAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
(Indy...heart...just go with me on this one)
LOL
The joke is kind of a pun, Indianapolis has no natural borders, so they just abandon parts of town, like the north side, and grow outwards at an exponential rate.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;755758It's ok. The burning is symbolic. I got a jug of muriatic acid and we're going to use some of Zachary's magic missiles first.
One word: Video.
PS, You guys should have picked up some ammo at the gunshow last weekend.
PPS, In honor of this thread I went and had a Leroy loin at tri-chi. yum
Quote from: dragoner;755768One word: Video.
PS, You guys should have picked up some ammo at the gunshow last weekend.
PPS, In honor of this thread I went and had a Leroy loin at tri-chi. yum
I did! There were some AMAZING deals on ammo! It was a great day--picked up a new .380 for the wife.
I'm still in the "sell it" camp, but if it comes to target practice, I'll be ready. :)
Quote from: bryce0lynch;755706To cleanse our lives of this blight which we have lived under since '07 and prepare for the rebirth of D&D we cordially invite you to join us in a burning of 4.0 materials. This will be a not child friendly, booze filled party worthy of adventurers. Dress as your favorite class or wear you sexiest black t-shirt. Anyone else who'd like to celebrate is welcome to attend.
"AI" sys the man with one arm in the broken down ale house. Grizzled and old, scared, he sits in the corner nursing a broken mug of cheap rank ale. "From the earliest days of exploring the dungeons we've known about it. The fancy feats, the weapon schools, the cantrips ... these things distract you. Remember the wisdom of old and apply your new training! The crowbar! The blanket! The bag of chickens!" He calms down again and with cold steel in his voice says: "We know how to kill an abomination." ... His voice lowers to just a whisper ... "Kill it with fire."
Friday, July 11th in Indianapolis. Large wooded lot in the heart of Indy. Details appearing shortly on the Indy meetup site.
Awesome!
Put the ashes in a box, and ship it to WotC.
Quote from: Zachary The First;755779I did! There were some AMAZING deals on ammo! It was a great day--picked up a new .380 for the wife.
I'm still in the "sell it" camp, but if it comes to target practice, I'll be ready. :)
There did seem to be some good deals on .380's, saw quite a few. I was in the market for a decent deer rifle and most of the ones I saw used weren't that much cheaper than new at Gander.
I'd probably just keep the books myself, I still have a bunch of D&D stuff I bought in '79, and the stuff I've gotten rid of I regret now.
I did actually give my books away I just like bondfires so I thought OP was being funny.
Burnin' stuff. Always fun. ;)
Quote from: JamesV;755766Some people are sensitive to book burning...
As an event type of thing, I'm slightly squicked by it, but to go with the gun talk I actually do shoot at books I can't give away.* It's fun to see how many of a given type various rounds will penetrate (hardcover vs softcover, etc). It's also just fun to shoot at various stuff. I do the same to old computers and monitors. I don't hunt much, and normal targets can get boring, but I like to shoot, so old stuff that's getting disposed of is it.
*Mainly old computer manuals and similar technical books that are all but useless. And phone books, but they barely counted as books to me.
Book burning is too deeply associated in my mind with the Nazis, Communists, and the KKK to ever be funny. It's just plain Un-American.
Quote from: Brander;755790As an event type of thing, I'm slightly squicked by it, but to go with the gun talk I actually do shoot at books I can't give away.* It's fun to see how many of a given type various rounds will penetrate (hardcover vs softcover, etc). It's also just fun to shoot at various stuff. I do the same to old computers and monitors. I don't hunt much, and normal targets can get boring, but I like to shoot, so old stuff that's getting disposed of is it.
*Mainly old computer manuals and similar technical books that are all but useless. And phone books, but they barely counted as books to me.
I do the same. I can't think that I've ever fired at a gaming book, though. They're mainly old phone books or books water-damaged or others not really good for trading or keeping. I probably felt like it when I read 4e's take on the Realms.... :)
Just add beer and brats, good summer fun, camp out. Fire is really a must, it keeps the mosquitos away.
There is no resale value for 4E books. I have chosen to keep my lone 4E book (PHB) as a simple placeholder to mark that the edition actually existed. It gigs context to the shelf after shelf if 1E/BECMI/2E/3E and PF material.
Quote from: Marleycat;755717Ouch! I thought that was only Peyton Manning?
Peyton Manning has a heart made out of old football leather and fueled by the broken souls of fans his teams have crushed. This is because Peyton Manning is a Golem imbued with the spirit of
Blood Bowl.
Quote from: jeff37923;755808Peyton Manning has a heart made out of old football leather and fueled by the broken souls of fans his teams have crushed. This is because Peyton Manning is a Golem imbued with the spirit of Blood Bowl.
Actually you should blame Kam Chancellor because he took Peyton's soul.;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CINCa_hLDR8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CINCa_hLDR8)
Burn baby, burn!
What a cool guy the OP is. I bet he's had sex with lots of babes. Like 30 babes. And he probably does joints as well. Man. I wish I was that cool.
Quote from: Silverlion;755761Seriously.
I'm going to say something I've tried to not say on this site, or any site, to anyone. Ever.
Fuck you.
I don't like 4E, I don't care about it, it wasn't fun. Yet I say this anyway.
Book burners suck. Its a stupid and wasteful behavior.
Sell it. Trade it. Give it to someone. Donate it to Good will
Do something to let someone get a benefit out of it. . Anything, but burning or destroying it.
No matter how much you don't like it.
This bears repeating.
Fuck you.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;755794Book burning is too deeply associated in my mind with the Nazis, Communists, and the KKK to ever be funny. It's just plain Un-American.
Unfortunately, most Americans don't realize that you have to read books for them to have value.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;755794Book burning is too deeply associated in my mind with the Nazis, Communists, and the KKK to ever be funny. It's just plain Un-American.
I'm pretty sure the most Unamerican thing ever is telling someone what they can do with their private property.
It's silly, downright stupid even but it's no skin of mine if someone wants to trash their copy of something. I've seen people burn money for fun. Now, if they were burning books that have a very limited existing copies amount, in the name of some great "ideological purge", I can understand spite at that. But a bunch of people burning 2 books of stuff they didn't like, which were mass produced?
Nah.
There is a preexisting tradition of burning D&D books in rural America.
Nothing new here.
Move along
:P
Hyperbole is the best thing in the universe! :D
Quote from: LibraryLass;755836What a cool guy the OP is. I bet he's had sex with lots of babes. Like 30 babes. And he probably does joints as well. Man. I wish I was that cool.
This bears repeating.
Fuck you.
It's Indiana girl even KCMO is light years ahead.:)
Quote from: CRKrueger;755840Unfortunately, most Americans don't realize that you have to read books for them to have value.
:D:D:D
Quote from: Bunch;755731Meh I don't get all the hate heaped on 4e. My group played it pretty much the same as 1e, 2, e,3e and everything else we've played.
For my part, no one's ever given me a credible account of how he or she was forced to play 4e at gunpoint. (http://ravenswing59.blogspot.com/2014/03/yet-more-persistent-fallacies.html) You don't like the newest edition of a game that you're sure has ruined it? Fine by me.
Don't play the damn thing then. Your previous edition surely didn't spontaneously combust, and the gaming company probably won't send a goon squad to break the legs of anyone caught playing it.
Quote from: Rincewind1;755850I'm pretty sure the most Unamerican thing ever is telling someone what they can do with their private property.
Telling other people what they can or cannot do is the damn American national pastime; let's be honest here. But no one's called the cops, and no one's suggested that the OP and supporters be physically prevented from breaking out the torches.
There's a great deal of difference -- and it should be readily apparent -- between "Someone should stop you from burning books" and "You're an asshole if you do."
Will you have to burn your computer if you have the books as pdf?
Quote from: Ravenswing;755932But no one's called the cops, and no one's suggested that the OP and supporters be physically prevented from breaking out the torches.
Yet. Wait until the day and see what happens.
Well, there's always origami.
Quote from: Ravenswing;755932
There's a great deal of difference -- and it should be readily apparent -- between "Someone should stop you from burning books" and "You're an asshole if you do."
... And it's not all hyperbole anyways, because then every book retailer would have giant protests outside their stores for the million books a year they destroy, right?
Quote from: Fiasco;755807There is no resale value for 4E books.
Give it a few years. The fact that 4E is a focused game with the least compatibility with other editions of D&D will make it
more valuable over time, not less. Some of the Essentials products are unavailable on store shelves and going for higher than MSRP on ebay.
The last time anyone advocated burning a bunch of D&D books, it was those reactionary ignorant fuck-wits who brought us the satanic panic.
Good show, sir. Historically speaking, you are in excellent company.
Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;756238The last time anyone advocated burning a bunch of D&D books, it was those reactionary ignorant fuck-wits who brought us the satanic panic.
Good show, sir. Historically speaking, you are in excellent company.
I think intent matters. While it is perhaps a bit wasteful to burn some 4E books, it is hardly the same thing as people burning D&D books because they believe they are satanic and they are trying to suppress readership or intimidate gamers. This is a guy celebrating the passing pf 4E by saying he plans to burn some fourth edition material. I am against book burning when it is legitimately about censorship or suppression of ideas. This in no way rises to that level.
Quote from: Bunch;755731Meh I don't get all the hate heaped on 4e. My group played it pretty much the same as 1e, 2e, 3e and everything else we've played.
Because people, especially here, have wrapped their identities so tightly around a particular style of play to even think about entertaining another will invalidate decades of identity.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;755706To cleanse our lives of this blight which we have lived under since '07 and prepare for the rebirth of D&D we cordially invite you to join us in a burning of 4.0 materials. This will be a not child friendly, booze filled party worthy of adventurers. Dress as your favorite class or wear you sexiest black t-shirt. Anyone else who'd like to celebrate is welcome to attend.
Sorry, threw them away sometime in early 2010.
Quote from: Sommerjon;756319Because people, especially here, have wrapped their identities so tightly around a particular style of play to even think about entertaining another will invalidate decades of identity.
No, the dislike of 4E was widespread and went way beyond anything unique to this place. People didn't like it because it radically altered the recipe of D&D in a way lots of folks were not asking for. It just didn't appeal to enough to the fan base. For me, it had nothing to do with any thought about play style. I was just a big fan of D&D, involved in several different campaigns at the time, and 4E was the opposite of what I wanted. I think the anger and hate came from people feeling like they were being told to like something by WOTC that they had no interest in. It felt like new coke.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;756323I was just a big fan of D&D, involved in several different campaigns at the time, and 4E was the opposite of what I wanted.
Hmm... You have a particular vision of 'D&D'...
Yeah that in no way is similar to
"wrapped their identities so tightly around a particular style of play to even think about entertaining another will invalidate decades of identity."
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;756323No, the dislike of 4E was widespread and went way beyond anything unique to this place. People didn't like it because it radically altered the recipe of D&D in a way lots of folks were not asking for. It just didn't appeal to enough to the fan base. For me, it had nothing to do with any thought about play style. I was just a big fan of D&D, involved in several different campaigns at the time, and 4E was the opposite of what I wanted. I think the anger and hate came from people feeling like they were being told to like something by WOTC that they had no interest in. It felt like new coke.
You'll see this attitude even over at TBP. There are alot of people that just entirely skipped 4e. And are suddenly posting because 5e is coming and looks like it has a chance of being able to be altered into something at least close to their preferences.
Quote from: Marleycat;756329You'll see this attitude even over at TBP. There are alot of people that just entirely skipped 4e. And are suddenly posting because 5e is coming and looks like it has a chance of being able to be altered into something at least close to their preferences.
And you'll see people who passed on D&D until 4e.
Quote from: Sommerjon;756330And you'll see people who passed on D&D until 4e.
That should tell you something right there. Especially if you combine that with alot people skipped 4e.
Those of you who condemn this as childish, petty, and destructive for "destroying something simply because you hate/disagree with it," please consider this: I've been to game cons where one of the items up for auction was a copy of Mazes and Monsters on VHS and a hammer. And it always gets high bids. And a cheer goes up when the winner destroys the tape. Don't tell me this is any different.
Honestly, I've watched Mazes & Monsters, and if anything it's nothing like the hatchet job people perceive it as. If you watch it objectively (which neither BADD fanatics nor gamers are likely to), it seems fairly clear from the story that the D&Dalike game has nothing to do with Tom Hanks losing his mind, and if anything he had really serious pre-existing problems going on. The other gamers all become rich and successful, at least one of them in the videogames industry.
Now if you want a real stinker, you should look into Skullduggery. The script is like Mazes & Monsters meets Eyes Wide Shut; the execution is like Troll 2 meets Hobgoblins.
Quote from: Marleycat;756334That should tell you something right there. Especially if you combine that with alot people skipped 4e.
You think the 3e warriors didn't play 4e for the same reason 1e warriors didn't?
Quote from: Sommerjon;756340You think the 3e warriors didn't play 4e for the same reason 1e warriors didn't?
Are you saying do I think that people that played/preferred either 1e or 3e had the same reasons for not playing 4e? If that's the question of course not both groups had different main reasons but sometimes they intersected.
Quote from: Sommerjon;756327Hmm... You have a particular vision of 'D&D'...
Yeah that in no way is similar to "wrapped their identities so tightly around a particular style of play to even think about entertaining another will invalidate decades of identity."
It really isn't the same but keep on thinking that if it boosts your ego.
Edit: No, wait, I've gotten confused and made an arse of myself. I'm backing out of this fight.
Quote from: LibraryLass;756355I gotta agree with Marley. What, practically speaking, is the difference?
I will interpret any attempt to dismiss the question as admission that there is none.
Well first of all, you haven't identified yourself as an ESL person so you should have had enough education to realize that...
Not playing a game because it is the opposite of what you were looking for out of that game
...is not...
"wrapped their identities so tightly around a particular style of play to even think about entertaining another will invalidate decades of identity."
Not even close. You want the answer to your question, look to the english language.
As for the rest, pretty sure you should reread the last few posts if you think Marley was reinforcing Summerjon's point towards Brendan instead of reinforcing Brendan's point towards 4e.
Also, it's pretty stupid to level the charge of "not being able to entertain another playstyle" against Brendan who
wrote a RPG not much like D&D at all.
Of course the whole thing is just Summerjon jumpin' in because he felt like raging against the machine or whatever he gets out of posting here. For his point above to be true, then he is admitting that 4e is a different playstyle then earlier versions of D&D. Now go find all the posts where he chimes in that it wasn't different, and the rage against it was just grogwhatever, etc. He's overdue by about three days.
Quote from: LibraryLass;756355I gotta agree with Marley. What, practically speaking, is the difference?
I do not see at all how not liking 4Th edition because it wasn't what I wanted in D&D has anything to do with being wrapped up in my identity as belonging to a particular playstyle, and frankly I think it is on Sommerjon's side to prove it, not on my side to disprove. But I will attempt to explain why.
First, when 4E came out I was not even conscious of my playstyle, i had not really been online much by that point and wasn't as familiar with the various style camps as I am today. To me it just didn't feel right when I read it, and didn't feel like D&D when I played it. Beyond that i consider myself fairly open minded about games and styles of play. I just didn't like 4E, and I don't think there is a problem with not liking something. For me the vitriol didn't come into it until fans of the new edition starting trying to convince me I really liked it, and would do so by asking me what I didn't like/why i didn't like that, then try to prove the thing I came up with in response to their question was the same as other editions and i must simply fear change. So not only was 4e a ruleset that had no appeal to me, it felt like I was constantly bumping into players in real life or online who couldn't take "no" as an answer to playing fourth edition. One group I was in dissolved because of 4E (because people were split over playing).in the other only one player wanted to transition. For me what ended up happening was i took a break from dungeons and dragons to play other games.
QuoteI will interpret any attempt to dismiss the question as admission that there is none.
That seems like a strange position to take to me. You are essentially imposing motivation on me that I feel does not exist, and it is couched in the most negative terms (terms set by sommerjon no less). And saying if I don't address your accusation that is proof of guilt.
Hey if you like 4E, enjoy. I think it is a fine ruleset if you like it. I just dont enjoy the game and feel it falls short of what I want in D&D (and an epic ton if people in the gaming community share that sentiment).
Right now I am open minded about 5E, and somewhat optimistic about what I am seeing. But we'll see. One thing I learned in the wake of 4E is I do not need D&D to game extensively.
Quote from: CRKrueger;756358As for the rest, pretty sure you should reread the last few posts if you think Marley was reinforcing Summerjon's point towards Brendan instead of reinforcing Brendan's point towards 4e.
Good catch. I got turned around, sorry.
QuoteOf course the whole thing is just Summerjon jumpin' in because he felt like raging against the machine or whatever he gets out of posting here. For his point above to be true, then he is admitting that 4e is a different playstyle then earlier versions of D&D. Now go find all the posts where he chimes in that it wasn't different, and the rage against it was just grogwhatever, etc. He's overdue by about three days.
You're right, I think I was a bit taken in by a misrepresented argument there. I'll withdraw. Sorry, Brendan. :o
Quote from: CRKrueger;756358Also, it's pretty stupid to level the charge of "not being able to entertain another playstyle" against Brendan who wrote a RPG not much like D&D at all.
Not just that but I also have expressed my enthusiasm here many times for games like Savage Worlds, Doctor Who: Adventures in Space and Time, TORG, Numenera, etc. Heck i even ran a session of gumshoe even though it proved to be something my group didnt enjoy and tried to get a game of fiasco off the ground as well. In my group, i am open to trying games people express emthusiasm for. I was even one of theplayers suggesting we try 4E a bit longer in that group that dissolved. And four years later i played in some more sessions of 4E at my local game store to see if I had been too quick to judge it.
It just wasn't for me. When I play D&D i do so because i like some if the aspects common to 1st through 3rd edition (vancian casting for example). Enough things were changed that it didnt have the elements that I keep going to D&D for. It introduced things that mucked with my sense of what was going on, and felt very much like playing a board game.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;756365Not just that but I also have expressed my enthusiasm here many times for games like Savage Worlds, Doctor Who: Adventures in Space and Time, TORG, Numenera, etc. Heck i even ran a session of gumshoe even though it proved to be something my group didnt enjoy and tried to get a game of fiasco off the ground as well. In my group, i am open to trying games people express emthusiasm for. I was even one of theplayers suggesting we try 4E a bit longer in that group that dissolved. And four years later i played in some more sessions of 4E at my local game store to see if I had been too quick to judge it.
It just wasn't for me. When I play D&D i do so because i like some if the aspects common to 1st through 3rd edition (vancian casting for example). Enough things were changed that it didnt have the elements that I keep going to D&D for. It introduced things that mucked with my sense of what was going on, and felt very much like playing a board game.
Yeah. You're right. I don't know what I was trying to say earlier. Lack of sleep getting to me, I guess.
Quote from: LibraryLass;756369Yeah. You're right. I don't know what I was trying to say earlier. Lack of sleep getting to me, I guess.
No worries, it gave me an opportunity to rant a bit.
Quote from: CRKrueger;756358Well first of all, you haven't identified yourself as an ESL person so you should have had enough education to realize that...
Not playing a game because it is the opposite of what you were looking for out of that game
...is not...
"wrapped their identities so tightly around a particular style of play to even think about entertaining another will invalidate decades of identity."
Not even close. You want the answer to your question, look to the english language.
As for the rest, pretty sure you should reread the last few posts if you think Marley was reinforcing Summerjon's point towards Brendan instead of reinforcing Brendan's point towards 4e.
Also, it's pretty stupid to level the charge of "not being able to entertain another playstyle" against Brendan who wrote a RPG not much like D&D at all.
Of course the whole thing is just Summerjon jumpin' in because he felt like raging against the machine or whatever he gets out of posting here. For his point above to be true, then he is admitting that 4e is a different playstyle then earlier versions of D&D. Now go find all the posts where he chimes in that it wasn't different, and the rage against it was just grogwhatever, etc. He's overdue by about three days.
Actually I was just pointing out that people that played either 1e or 3e exclusively usually had different reasons but sometimes the same reasons for not playing 4e. When he was pointing out many 4e players didn't like any of or play any of the earlier iterations. In support of myself not Brendan and just answering Summerjon.
I'm actually quite near Brendan in my overall attitude and outlook concerning openness to other games and systems beyond Dnd. You should know that I outright prefer White Wolf/Onyx Path games to any variation of Dnd already? My issue with Dnd is mostly the vancian magic system it's why I use and prefer clones/alternative/retroclones when I am doing a Dnd game. C&C, LL, ACKS, DCC and FantasyCraft/Arcana Evolved all do Dnd more to my preferences then TSR/WotC Dnd does. But if I only had Dnd I prefer TSR versions over WotC versions though 3.0 I like quite a lot.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;756347It really isn't the same but keep on thinking that if it boosts your ego.
Yes it is.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;756362I do not see at all how not liking 4Th edition because it wasn't what I wanted in D&D has anything to do with being wrapped up in my identity as belonging to a particular playstyle, and frankly I think it is on Sommerjon's side to prove it, not on my side to disprove. But I will attempt to explain why.
No need to I'll use your own words.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;756362I just don't enjoy the game and feel it falls short of what I want in D&D.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;756365When I play D&D i do so because i like some if the aspects common to 1st through 3rd edition (vancian casting for example). Enough things were changed that it didnt have the elements that I keep going to D&D for. It introduced things that mucked with my sense of what was going on, and felt very much like playing a board game.
Now what did I say again?
"Hmm... You have a particular vision of 'D&D'...
Yeah that in no way is similar to 'wrapped their identities so tightly around a particular style of play to even think about entertaining another will invalidate decades of identity.' "
This is just like last year...Brendan being Joe Cool and Summerjon trolling everybody like a 49et fan.:)
Quote from: Sommerjon;756502Yes it is.
No need to I'll use your own words.
Now what did I say again?
"Hmm... You have a particular vision of 'D&D'...
Yeah that in no way is similar to 'wrapped their identities so tightly around a particular style of play to even think about entertaining another will invalidate decades of identity.' "
Again there is a huge disconnection between your first statement and your last. As I pointed out, this wasn't about play style, it was about why I go the D&D brand. Nor was it about playstle and idenity. There is also the hugely important point that I did give 4E a chance, read it, played it, then played it again years down the road to see if my judgment had been to quick. Not for me. I would suggest the person with identity issues might be the guy who still just can't accept some people legitimately don't like 4E as a system and don't find it to feel a game that matches what D&D is to them. However I won't because I have no idea what is going on in your head.
This started out as a very odd thread and then slowly morphed into a carbon copy of all the other threads about 4e.
Quote from: AndrewSFTSN;756510This started out as a very odd thread and then slowly morphed into a carbon copy of all the other threads about 4e.
It's like the the tape deck from Good Omens.
Quote from: sniderman;756337Those of you who condemn this as childish, petty, and destructive for "destroying something simply because you hate/disagree with it," please consider this: I've been to game cons where one of the items up for auction was a copy of Mazes and Monsters on VHS and a hammer. And it always gets high bids. And a cheer goes up when the winner destroys the tape. Don't tell me this is any different.
In Germany there is this annual Chaosium convention, "Tentacles", held at Bacharach, a medieval castle-turned-youth-hostel. It's a small event with die-hard Chaosium fans from all around the world attending. Greg Stafford and other Chaosium guys (like Charlie Krank) are regular guests.
I was told that several years in a row it was a habit of doing a ritual burning of the worst, most "un-Gloranthan" Chaosium RQ module published, "Eldarad - The Lost City".
Quote from: Warthur;756338Honestly, I've watched Mazes & Monsters, and if anything it's nothing like the hatchet job people perceive it as. If you watch it objectively (which neither BADD fanatics nor gamers are likely to), it seems fairly clear from the story that the D&Dalike game has nothing to do with Tom Hanks losing his mind, and if anything he had really serious pre-existing problems going on. The other gamers all become rich and successful, at least one of them in the videogames industry.
I have the DVD and recommend people actually do watch the thing before forming an opinion on it. Personally I am not 100% convinced that the movie wasn't trying to paint D&D negatively, but I do kind of agree it isn't a pure propoganda piece either. To me it just looks like it is based on a book that used some misunderstandings about the hobby and the "steam tunnel" as inspiration. I would have to watch it again to really decide. Clearly the main character has issues going in. However he really transforms in a bad way over the course of the D&D campaign. So I do think the movie kinds of presents gaming as this potentially weird and dangerous thing for certain people. Obviously the other characters are fine at the end.
Definitely watch it if you haven't seen it. It is entirely worth it if only for the last scene.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;756521I have the DVD and recommend people actually do watch the thing before forming an opinion on it. Personally I am not 100% convinced that the movie wasn't trying to paint D&D negatively, but I do kind of agree it isn't a pure propoganda piece either.
Oh, I agree, I think the movie tried, it just didn't succeed because it failed to provide a convincing case that D&D was at the root of Tom Hanks' problems.
QuoteClearly the main character has issues going in. However he really transforms in a bad way over the course of the D&D campaign. So I do think the movie kinds of presents gaming as this potentially weird and dangerous thing for certain people. Obviously the other characters are fine at the end.
Yeah, though equally I can see that some people with particularly acute mental illness issues might be genuinely better off staying away from gaming. If someone actually does have a failure to distinguish fantasy and reality - and that does happen - then gaming will be just as bad for them as any other storytelling medium whatsoever.
Quote from: Warthur;756523Yeah, though equally I can see that some people with particularly acute mental illness issues might be genuinely better off staying away from gaming. If someone actually does have a failure to distinguish fantasy and reality - and that does happen - then gaming will be just as bad for them as any other storytelling medium whatsoever.
D&D isn't any worse than other potential sources of inspiration for someone with that kind of issue. There are always going to be deeply disturbed people like that. Anything could be a launching point for their insanity: fairy tales, the bible, seasame street, etc. if the issue is a person cannot distinguish between fantasy and reality, the problem is them not D&D.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;756528D&D isn't any worse than other potential sources of inspiration for someone with that kind of issue. There are always going to be deeply disturbed people like that. Anything could be a launching point for their insanity: fairy tales, the bible, seasame street, etc. if the issue is a person cannot distinguish between fantasy and reality, the problem is them not D&D.
This is pretty much what I was saying there.
With all his Mazes and Monsters talk I suggest people check out his awesome blog where someone extrapolates an RPG from the material presented in the movie.
http://blogofholding.com/?page_id=370
It's very tongue in cheek and very fun!
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;756521I have the DVD and recommend people actually do watch the thing before forming an opinion on it. Personally I am not 100% convinced that the movie wasn't trying to paint D&D negatively, but I do kind of agree it isn't a pure propoganda piece either. To me it just looks like it is based on a book that used some misunderstandings about the hobby and the "steam tunnel" as inspiration. I would have to watch it again to really decide. Clearly the main character has issues going in. However he really transforms in a bad way over the course of the D&D campaign. So I do think the movie kinds of presents gaming as this potentially weird and dangerous thing for certain people. Obviously the other characters are fine at the end.
Definitely watch it if you haven't seen it. It is entirely worth it if only for the last scene.
I had both the book and the movie and found the book pretty unreadable (Rona Jaffe was not the best writer), but the movie has the saving grace of showcasing Tom Hanks burgeoning acting skills.
For me, reading Michael Stackpole's The Pulling Report (http://www.rpgstudies.net/stackpole/pulling_report.html)really helped me get some insight into the role the book played in the whole Satanic Panic over D&D.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;756528D&D isn't any worse than other potential sources of inspiration for someone with that kind of issue. There are always going to be deeply disturbed people like that. Anything could be a launching point for their insanity: fairy tales, the bible, seasame street, etc. if the issue is a person cannot distinguish between fantasy and reality, the problem is them not D&D.
A coworker of mine recently insisted that the internet is to blame for children committing crimes. I asked him if he recalled (he is 62) how rock music, and Jazz before that, was blamed for childrens behavior?
Nope, the internet is an evil force that makes children murder.
Quote from: Bill;756770A coworker of mine recently insisted that the internet is to blame for children committing crimes. I asked him if he recalled (he is 62) how rock music, and Jazz before that, was blamed for childrens behavior?
Nope, the internet is an evil force that makes children murder.
It's the parent's fault, but there is a
little something to that.
If you don't choose to actively raise your kids, something else will.
Before TV, other people raised your kids while they were out and about at school, church, running around with other kids, whatever.
After TV, some parents let Television raise their kids, which was bad.
Now parents let the Internet raise their kids, which is downright psychotic.
Quote from: CRKrueger;756771It's the parent's fault, but there is a little something to that.
If you don't choose to actively raise your kids, something else will.
Before TV, other people raised your kids while they were out and about at school, church, running around with other kids, whatever.
After TV, some parents let Television raise their kids, which was bad.
Now parents let the Internet raise their kids, which is downright psychotic.
Agreed.
I do feel that the vast majority of children will not murder because someone on the internet tells them too, or because they see an r rated movie, or play call of duty.
I a not suggesting immersion children in violence, but its just too easy to blame the internet.
Quote from: Bill;756772Agreed.
I do feel that the vast majority of children will not murder because someone on the internet tells them too, or because they see an r rated movie, or play call of duty.
I a not suggesting immersion children in violence, but its just too easy to blame the internet.
Yeah it's the difference between being having
some effect and being the major determinative cause.
Seeing as how the 12 year olds knew a lot about Slenderman, they were obviously surfing the net without any parental control as a lot of sites where they would have been exposed to it have age ratings or no ratings (so won't show up).
It would be interesting to look at the statistics of murders, assaults and rapes by underage children and see if they have substantially risen since 2000.
Yeah, about the Slender Man. Is anyone else not surprised that it was dreamed up on the Something Awful forums? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slender_Man)
It's mostly about lead in your environment, violence is. That or cheap labor/energy that needs liberating. But we can waste our time with media, still.
Quote from: CRKrueger;756788It would be interesting to look at the statistics of murders, assaults and rapes by underage children and see if they have substantially risen since 2000.
I know that violence by 10-24 year olds has gone down quite a bit since the 90s.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;756833I know that violence by 10-24 year olds has gone down quite a bit since the 90s.
What!?!?!
But...things are Dooomier now!
People always seem to think today's problems were not as bad in the past.
Like the expression "Kids today!"
Kids must have been Angels in the past.....
Quote from: Bill;756836What!?!?!
But...things are Dooomier now!
People always seem to think today's problems were not as bad in the past.
Like the expression "Kids today!"
Kids must have been Angels in the past.....
In a five month period in 1966, Richard Speck killed eight nurses, Charles Whitman shot 16 dead from a clock tower, and 18-year-old Robert Smith shot four women and a young girl dead. All mass-murders by rogue young men. What did people blame it all on back then?
Quote from: Haffrung;756841In a five month period in 1966, Richard Speck killed eight nurses, Charles Whitman shot 16 dead from a clock tower, and 18-year-old Robert Smith shot four women and a young girl dead. All mass-murders by rogue young men. What did people blame it all on back then?
Rock music lyrics?
Quote from: CRKrueger;756788It would be interesting to look at the statistics of murders, assaults and rapes by underage children and see if they have substantially risen since 2000.
The upshot from gov't statistics isn't that hard to find: http://1.usa.gov/1hKNErL
All of the moral panics aside, compared to the past few decades, most kids are pretty well behaved.
My theory why? Dungeon crawling teaches creative and safe ways to deal with anger.
School getting you down? Kill a lich and take its stuff!
Quote from: JamesV;756988The upshot from gov't statistics isn't that hard to find: http://1.usa.gov/1hKNErL
All of the moral panics aside, compared to the past few decades, most kids are pretty well behaved.
My theory why? Dungeon crawling teaches creative and safe ways to deal with anger.
School getting you down? Kill a lich and take its stuff!
It's how I made it to graduation, I can tell you.
Quote from: CRKrueger;756788...
It would be interesting to look at the statistics of murders, assaults and rapes by underage children and see if they have substantially risen since 2000.
...
Violence is or was very recently at all time lows worldwide:
http://reason.com/archives/2012/01/11/the-decline-of-violence
or
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/22/world-less-violent-stats_n_1026723.html
Both talking about the same book, by the same guy. I'm not convinced his thoughts on why are true or all of it, but the stats appear legit.
book burning is absolutely idiotic, whatever the subject.
Quote from: RPGPundit;760862book burning is absolutely idiotic, whatever the subject.
Just think of it, cutting through whatever jungles are in Uruguay, heading to whatever lost, forgotten or forbidden temples are in Uruguay, placing every copy of every Ron Edwards or Vince Baker book ever published on the altar and setting it all on fire as the drums sound and The Wench gyrates wildly under the stars about to come right...
You know you've dreamt it. I know I have (except it was Adriana Lima dancing because I don't know The Wench).
I'm sure a case can be made for the Reader's Digest Condensed Novels that litter secondhand stores.
I almost burned a book once.
It was one of those Jack Chick religious tracts. Someone left a copy of Chick's epic anti-evolution story "Big Daddy" in a bathroom stall at a truck stop in Wisconsin. Having nothing better to do whilst I took care of my business, I gave it a quick read.
It was, like all his works, simultaneously infuriating, disheartening, and hilarious. I honestly didn't know whether to flush it, show it to my friends for a good laugh, or like I said, just take it with me and burn the damned thing when I got home.
Then I finished my business, and discovered there was no toilet paper....
Problem solved.
Quote from: CRKrueger;760865Just think of it, cutting through whatever jungles are in Uruguay, heading to whatever lost, forgotten or forbidden temples are in Uruguay, placing every copy of every Ron Edwards or Vince Baker book ever published on the altar and setting it all on fire as the drums sound and The Wench gyrates wildly under the stars about to come right...
You know you've dreamt it. I know I have (except it was Adriana Lima dancing because I don't know The Wench).
No, never once. I can theoretically conceive of books far more repulsive than anything Edwards or Baker dream up in their sickest fantasies, and I still wouldn't want to burn those.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;762015No, never once. I can theoretically conceive of books far more repulsive than anything Edwards or Baker dream up in their sickest fantasies, and I still wouldn't want to burn those.
RPGPundit
Well, ok maybe it was just the Adriana Lima dancing part I was dreaming, but I know fire was in there somewhere.
Alright fine, if no one else will do it I'll link to the obvious speech:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9n98SXNGl8
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;762030Alright fine, if no one else will do it I'll link to the obvious speech:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9n98SXNGl8
That's a pretty great supercut/trailer.
I think perhaps we might draw some distinctions between The State and personal acts, eh?
Or perhaps we should come to attention, salute the flag, recite the Pledge of Allegiance and have a brief period of silent reflection before burying the ashes or every disposed book?
Quote from: bryce0lynch;762046I think perhaps we might draw some distinctions between The State and personal acts, eh?
Good and important distinction. Aside from that, Bradbury, Truffaut, and I still raise one eyebrow at this behavior.
Bookstores destroy books all the time.
Quote from: RPGPundit;762015No, never once. I can theoretically conceive of books far more repulsive than anything Edwards or Baker dream up in their sickest fantasies, and I still wouldn't want to burn those.
RPGPundit
Even wrong knowledge can teach us what not to do in the future.
Those who burn their history are condemned to repeat it.
There is no greater crime to civilization that the destruction of knowledge.
We still remember Alexandria for a reason.
Quote from: J Arcane;762055Even wrong knowledge can teach us what not to do in the future.
Those who burn their history are condemned to repeat it.
There is no greater crime to civilization that the destruction of knowledge.
We still remember Alexandria for a reason.
I think we are being melodramatic here. I am by no means pro-book burning but there is a huge difference between some guy burning his own personal collection of material from 4th edition for symbolic reasons and systematically burning books in order to suppress knowledge or burning down an entire library.
Yes, bookstores routinely destroy books.
Sure, it's only a gesture. But it's a douchey gesture.
It is ineffective as well.
Don't burn books, burn people instead.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;762078I think we are being melodramatic here. I am by no means pro-book burning but there is a huge difference between some guy burning his own personal collection of material from 4th edition for symbolic reasons and systematically burning books in order to suppress knowledge or burning down an entire library.
It was a dark day when the Great Library of Gygaxandria burned down. Thousands of years of roleplaying wisdom were lost...
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;762078I think we are being melodramatic here. I am by no means pro-book burning but there is a huge difference between some guy burning his own personal collection of material from 4th edition for symbolic reasons and systematically burning books in order to suppress knowledge or burning down an entire library.
Nope. Burning a single sacred page from a 4E book is exactly equal to the burning of the great Library of Alexandria and burying scholars alive.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;762078I think we are being melodramatic here. I am by no means pro-book burning but there is a huge difference between some guy burning his own personal collection of material from 4th edition for symbolic reasons and systematically burning books in order to suppress knowledge or burning down an entire library.
It is an immoral act.
That the act was committed for such petty jealousies is not much of a defense.
Quote from: J Arcane;762171It is an immoral act.
That the act was committed for such petty jealousies is not much of a defense.
I think it is possibly a lame act, but I would not say it is immoral. If he were trying to erase it from existance and rounding up every copy he could get that would be one thing. But burning one copy of a book he doesn't like and could just as easily throw away? It is just a symbolic gesture in this case. I certainly think censorship is wrong, and I think burning books in order to prevent others from reading them is wrong. I just do not think that doing damage to one of your own books when the aim is humor or performance art is wrong. Heck I mark up all my books all the time with notes and have been told by some people that is immoral because books are sacred. To me that doesn't make sense because note taking in the margins helps me engage the text more.
Instead of being an idiot and burning the books, I will gladly take them for free, I will find some use for them.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;762173I think it is possibly a lame act, but I would not say it is immoral.
And I would.
So there you go.
Is burning a book more or less moral than simply throwing it in the trash?
What if the trash gets incinerated?
What if the trash gets recycled?
Does it make a difference if the book is a mass-produced commercial product where it is trivially easy to obtain alternate physical and electronic copies?
Book burning as a means of repression, intimidation, or erasing knowledge is as abhorrent to me as it is to anyone in this thread. At the same time, one guy burning a copy of a book he doesn't want any more and where ample replacements are available just isn't the same thing and it's melodramatic and simplistic to pretend it is. It's a childlike approach to morality where you parrot "book burning = bad" without actually understanding why books have been burned in the past and why it is bad, when that happened, and why this particular instance really doesn't have that much in common with those.
In addition, getting upset about burning books but not getting equally upset about books getting pulped (as publishers and bookshops do all the time) is a classic example of magical superstition overriding actual thought.
Publicly announcing that you're going to burn a book, and then presumably burning it, is completely different from a remaindered book being pulped. It's a overt, public act meant to send a message - hate. And some people will applaud that hate out of tribal solidarity. And some are calling it out for being a dick move worthy of contempt.
Edits in bold are mine,
Quote from: Haffrung;762281Publicly announcing that you're going to throw a book in the garbage, and then presumably trashing it, is completely different from a remaindered book being pulped. It's a overt, public act meant to send a message - hate. And some people will applaud that hate out of tribal solidarity. And some are calling it out for being a dick move worthy of contempt.
Does the method matter?
Quote from: Haffrung;762281Publicly announcing that you're going to burn a phone book, and then presumably burning it, is completely different from a remaindered book being pulped. It's a overt, public act meant to send a message - hate. And some people will applaud that hate out of tribal solidarity. And some are calling it out for being a dick move worthy of contempt.
Does the content matter?
We pretty regularly use newspapers and phone books to help get fires going in our fire pit.
Quote from: Warthur;762277Book burning as a means of repression, intimidation, or erasing knowledge is as abhorrent to me as it is to anyone in this thread. At the same time, one guy burning a copy of a book he doesn't want any more and where ample replacements are available just isn't the same thing and it's melodramatic and simplistic to pretend it is. It's a childlike approach to morality where you parrot "book burning = bad" without actually understanding why books have been burned in the past and why it is bad, when that happened, and why this particular instance really doesn't have that much in common with those.
Once upon a time there were a great many books, now rare, that were abundant in their day.
As pointed out above, that the OP did such a thing for such petty reasons over so petty a thing makes the act, in my opinion, worse.
He removed knowledge from the world for no other reason than he didn't like the game. Even the fascists thought they were improving the world; he's just pissed an elfgame didn't conform to his taste specifications.
And no, I don't like the practice of pulping books either, so there's that gotcha you can shove up your ass too.
Quote from: JamesV;762282Does the method matter?
Why don't you ask the person who decided to burn the book instead of throw it in the garbage? Presumably it matters to him.
Quote from: J Arcane;762289Once upon a time there were a great many books, now rare, that were abundant in their day.
As pointed out above, that the OP did such a thing for such petty reasons over so petty a thing makes the act, in my opinion, worse.
He removed knowledge from the world for no other reason than he didn't like the game. Even the fascists thought they were improving the world; he's just pissed an elfgame didn't conform to his taste specifications.
And no, I don't like the practice of pulping books either, so there's that gotcha you can shove up your ass too.
Not to speak for others but the degree of difference matters to me. One guy burning a copy of their least favorite elfgame doesn't rank with the sacking of Alexandria or Baghdad.
Wacky or dickish sure, but the second coming of fascism?
Also, I'm not certain about it, but aren't pulped books recycled? What should be done to a book that no-one wants, or is worn beyond practical use?
Quote from: Haffrung;762292Why don't you ask the person who decided to burn the book instead of throw it in the garbage? Presumably it matters to him.
Indeed, I highly doubt the symbolism of the act is lost on the OP, given he chose such a ceremonial means to dispose of it.
There are a panoply of methods by which to dispose of an unwanted book, some of which would've even netted some actual monetary return.
Instead he chooses a public book burning, and we're supposed to believe that was a perfectly innocent decision?
Horsecocks.
QuoteWacky or dickish sure, but the second coming of fascism?
It doesn't have to be the second coming of fascism to still be wrong and immoral.
Exactly what makes the OP any better than the MADD mothers? Where I'm sitting, he comes out the worse. His reasoning is certainly more childish and petty.
QuoteWhat should be done to a book that no-one wants, or is worn beyond practical use?
Very often pulped books aren't necessarily 'books no-one wants' but 'books not enough people want at a fast enough rate to satisfy the profit margins of the book industry, and due to the vagaries of tax and accounting rules are more profitable to destroy rather than contribute to the library system or sell through more discount channels'.
Quote from: J Arcane;762289Once upon a time there were a great many books, now rare, that were abundant in their day.
Yes, and they have rotten away, or were lost in raiding parties, with the exception of the few huge ones by Mongols, Arabs and Christians in Alexandria.
Really, comparing burning a copy of a mass produced book in XXI century, where there are PDF copies of it around to Destruction of Library of Alexandria (which you are aiming for with the "Oh the lost knowledge of the Ancients!!1) is like comparing throwing out a half - eaten hot dog to Irish Potato Famine.
Both acts are wasteful, yes, both technically contribute to the same problem, but if you look a bit closer, you can see that the equivalence is false.
You really need this as a
Proof of the Darker Nature of Man? Fine, it's a proof we're wasteful, grudge bearing, tribal bastards. It's however no way in hell a proof of some dark intent to destroy knowledge born in heart of every human.
Obviously, saying this is just the same as using newspaper to light up a grill isn't exactly true neither, because obviously this is a symbol of childish spite for 4e. But on the other hand, let's not pretend he's burning original print of Shakespeare because he does not like the swear words.
Also, lol squared at 4e being the "Great Lost Book of Our Generation." Oh, if only that madman hasn't burned it in this yard, our grand descendants might have figured out why there are thousands of gygabytes arguing about this Second Wind mechanic (what did they have against winds blowing again?)!
Quote from: JamesV;762293Not to speak for others but the degree of difference matters to me. One guy burning a copy of their least favorite elfgame doesn't rank with the sacking of Alexandria or Baghdad.
You say that, but obviously we should enjoy the game, before "Zhe Mongols" come.
Dorkier than larp.
Quote from: Rincewind1;762306Yes, and they have rotten away, or were lost in raiding parties, with the exception of the few huge ones by Mongols, Arabs and Christians in Alexandria.
Really, comparing burning a copy of a mass produced book in XXI century, where there are PDF copies of it around to Destruction of Library of Alexandria (which you are aiming for with the "Oh the lost knowledge of the Ancients!!1) is like comparing throwing out a half - eaten hot dog to Irish Potato Famine.
Both acts are wasteful, yes, both technically contribute to the same problem, but if you look a bit closer, you can see that the equivalence is false.
You really need this as a Proof of the Darker Nature of Man? Fine, it's a proof we're wasteful, grudge bearing, tribal bastards. It's however no way in hell a proof of some dark intent to destroy knowledge born in heart of every human.
Obviously, saying this is just the same as using newspaper to light up a grill isn't exactly true neither, because obviously this is a symbol of childish spite for 4e. But on the other hand, let's not pretend he's burning original print of Shakespeare because he does not like the swear words.
Also, lol squared at 4e being the "Great Lost Book of Our Generation." Oh, if only that madman hasn't burned it in this yard, our grand descendants might have figured out why there are thousands of gygabytes arguing about this Second Wind mechanic (what did they have against winds blowing again?)!
You say that, but obviously we should enjoy the game, before "Zhe Mongols" come.
I completely get that this event doesn't carry a whole lot of historical significance. He's just doing it to make a personal statement. And what that statement boils down to is
He's a hateful little book-burning douche-rocket.
Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;762315I completely get that this event doesn't carry a whole lot of historical significance. He's just doing it to make a personal statement. And what that statement boils down to is He's a hateful little book-burning douche-rocket.
Bingo.
Furthermore, why does it have to live up to this standard ...
QuoteNot to speak for others but the degree of difference matters to me. One guy burning a copy of their least favorite elfgame doesn't rank with the sacking of Alexandria or Baghdad.
... to be wrong?
I made that comparison out of poetic license, but some seem instead to want to use that as an excuse for it.
Why are you fucking people so determined to bend over backwards to defend such a flatly immoral behavior?
Why do we have to look to 5,000 years from now, when we can look to 5? 5 years from now some kid is gonna walk into a used book store where that book could've been, and it won't be there. He won't pick it up, intrigued by the art on the cover. He won't try his own hand at playing it, and find it enjoyable but wanting. He wont move on to other games, or even to inventing his own, that might very well change the whole hobby as we know it.
We. Don't. Know.
We can't.
That's the
point of preserving knowledge, even knowledge we think is "wrong".
Because you never know when somewhere in the future, that "wrong" knowledge might turn out to be true with the right bit of extra legwork, or might inspire someone else to make new knowledge that actually
is right. Indeed, some of 4th editions mistakes or half-baked ideas
directly inspired work I've done since.
It is one of the fundamental principles of human civilization, and this fuckwhistle tosses that away because what? He didn't like it?
Fuck him, and fuck you lot for defending him.
Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;762315He's a hateful little book-burning douche-rocket.
If you're going to give someone a user title that memorable, you should shoot for brevity.
Quote from: J Arcane;762325Bingo.
Why are you fucking people so determined to bend over backwards to defend such a flatly immoral behavior?
Because it's about as immoral as deciding to cut off your finger or smoke a bong in my eyes. It's his property, he's a grown man. Maybe he wants to destroy something beautiful. Maybe this'll get him off. Maybe he really just hates 4e. The fact I do not entirely understand his action does not mean I will condemn it. He's not going after burning all 4e. He's not going after shooting 4e's authors. He's a man letting out a bit of spite in a way that does not harm anyone.
QuoteWhy do we have to look to 5,000 years from now, when we can look to 5? 5 years from now some kid is gonna walk into a used book store where that book could've been, and it won't be there. He won't pick it up, intrigued by the art on the cover. He won't try his own hand at playing it, and find it enjoyable but wanting. He wont move on to other games, or even to inventing his own, that might very well change the whole hobby as we know it.
In five years, he'll type "4e pdfs" and steal one then. Or buy one for a buck. What about stores that probably trashed 4e's books by thousands - are we really going to hold them responsive for some hypothetical child's misery?
Also,
(http://sfcitizen.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/think-of-the-children-450x372.jpg)
QuoteFuck him, and fuck you lot for defending him.
:boohoo:
Quote from: J Arcane;762325Fuck him, and fuck you lot for defending him.
Have you tried decaf?
Quote from: J Arcane;762325...
Why are you fucking people so determined to bend over backwards to defend such a flatly immoral behavior?
...
Because it's neither immoral nor unethical just because you have a book fetish. You are going all zero tolerance on it. I think it's a bit squicky, but that's because while I love books, I don't see them as holy objects. I'm sure it squicks you out that I like to shoot holes in old technical books I literally can't give away. There are lots of books you can't even give to people. I've put up auctions for literally what it would cost me to ship them and no one was interested.
I actually did give away my 4E books, to a borderline hoarder. I almost feel guilty about it.
You want to put your money where your mouth is? Tell him you will pay the postage to send them to you and say $50 for dinner to celebrate getting rid of them.
Quote from: Brander;762350You want to put your money where your mouth is? Tell him you will pay the postage to send them to you and say $50 for dinner to celebrate getting rid of them.
Only if he promises to take me out on dinner for that, I have read some of this Indianapolis food of yours and it looks delicious, if artery clogging.
The guy bought the books, they are his to burn if he so chooses.
Trying to make this out to be akin to the destruction of the Library of Alexandria is bullshit. Get a grip, people.
Quote from: Rincewind1;762351... I have read some of this Indianapolis food of yours and it looks delicious, if artery clogging.
Mmmm, delicious delicious arteries ... YUM!
But, in all seriousness ... my wife asked today what kind of food we were serving. I was going to go for the standard "4e roasted hot dogs", unless someone can suggest something better.
All that shiny paper and modern inks? I wouldn't want to eat something off that fire. Besides you kind of eliminate the ritualistic aspect if you do it just on Grill Night.
Rumor has it that if you set 4E on fire and bury the ashes, then a 5E product tree will sprout from the ground.
Lo, the children who did not eat their vegetables... for the famines in Africa are your responsibility!
Quote from: jeff37923;762352The guy bought the books, they are his to burn if he so chooses.
Trying to make this out to be akin to the destruction of the Library of Alexandria is bullshit. Get a grip, people.
It's not literally on the same level. It's just the same kind of douchiness. There is knowledge I dislike, therefore I will destroy it utterly with a lot of fanfare and spectacle to announce my distaste.
Yeah, okay, you're a really cool guy, whatever, there are less stupid and/or wasteful ways of getting something you don't like out of your sight.
Quote from: Rincewind1;762351Only if he promises to take me out on dinner for that, I have read some of this Indianapolis food of yours and it looks delicious, if artery clogging.
You would be so at home here. lol
Quote from: J Arcane;762289Once upon a time there were a great many books, now rare, that were abundant in their day.
Abundant
by the standards of their day, not abundant by the standards of modern publishing.
QuoteHe removed knowledge from the world for no other reason than he didn't like the game. Even the fascists thought they were improving the world; he's just pissed an elfgame didn't conform to his taste specifications.
Except he didn't remove any knowledge from the world. The information in his 4E player's handbook is the exact same information as in any other 4E player's handbook. Sum total of information lost to history by this act = 0.
QuoteAnd no, I don't like the practice of pulping books either, so there's that gotcha you can shove up your ass too.
So you opted for the other gotcha where you have this childlike, superstitious version of morality where it's somehow possible to remove knowledge from the world by destroying 1 book and leaving 999 copies of the same book intact?
Got it. And gotcha.
The only thing wrong with people burning their own copies of D&D 4E books is that if they do it in public and brag about it, it's kind of a dick move to the people who worked on 'em. I suspect most wouldn't care overmuch, it's obviously meant as not-for-serious play on the 80s D&D book burning thing, but still kinda unnecessary. Unless the specific books in question were huge lemons, if you drop a stinker you gotta expect some ribbing, but 4E wasn't that, just very different.
There's nothing immoral about destroying ones copies of a mass-produced leisure product, even if it's a book. There's no credible intent or ability to deny anyone knowledge, and that is the part of book burning that is immoral.
I do have to wonder what the reaction here would be if someone suggested burning 1E books ... ;)
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;762519I do have to wonder what the reaction here would be if someone suggested burning 1E books ... ;)
Barring a massive societal collapse, anything that has been interesting to more than about 2 people will likely never go away now that we can make electronic copies. Though one of the reasons I hate DRM with such a passion is that it can make archiving rarer works more difficult. Knowing that it wouldn't bother me any more than 4E. I also wonder how may 1E books were printed versus today. It's possible there are more 1E books out there still than 4E.
Quote from: dragoner;762081Yes, bookstores routinely destroy books.
which is also stupid; and a product of the book sales industry. BUT, there's a significant difference between burning books to dispose of them because they're no longer in any decent state, or even because of needing to dispose of industry that's not legal to sell or even give away, and intentionally burning a book because you don't like what's written in it.
Quote from: RPGPundit;763255which is also stupid; and a product of the book sales industry. BUT, there's a significant difference between burning books to dispose of them because they're no longer in any decent state, or even because of needing to dispose of industry that's not legal to sell or even give away, and intentionally burning a book because you don't like what's written in it.
"Das war ein Vorspiel nur, dort wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man auch am Ende Menschen." ("That was but a prelude; where they burn books, they will ultimately burn people as well.")
-Heinrich Heine
This is the issue. However, I see no new Holocaust presaged in the burning of a D&D book.
My great-grandfather, a Captain of Dragoons, in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and Officer of the Home-Guard, that fought off the Nazis during the 1934 Putsch, was later executed in 1940 at Mauthausen-Gusen for Treason against the Reich.
So yes, I am somewhat sensitive to the act, but at the same time comparing the two bothers me. I honestly find it as meaningless as Barnes and Noble destroying an unsold Harlequin Romance.
I don't; I see a distinction. No, its not up to the level of a Nazi or anything near that, but it's still a highly distasteful gesture to make. And the difference with 'disposal' of books is that it involves an active sense of malice toward the content it holds.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;762078I think we are being melodramatic here. I am by no means pro-book burning but there is a huge difference between some guy burning his own personal collection of material from 4th edition for symbolic reasons and systematically burning books in order to suppress knowledge or burning down an entire library.
Sanity this late in a thread?
Quote from: RPGPundit;763351... is that it involves an active sense of malice toward the content it holds.
You have divined the intent.
Quote from: dragoner;763593You have divined the intent.
Well, Pundit is a magic(k)ian.
Quote from: Rincewind1;763595Well, Pundit is a magic(k)ian.
Groovy.
Quote from: dragoner;763593You have divined the intent.
What other intent could there be? I mean, you don't have to be Merlin or Sherlock Holmes to "divine the intent" in this case.
I mean, for fuck's sake, the OP talked about "cleansing ourselves of this blight we have lived with since '07".
4e is an abomination.
It is evil.
It must be destroyed.
Quote from: RPGPundit;764392What other intent could there be? I mean, you don't have to be Merlin or Sherlock Holmes to "divine the intent" in this case.
I mean, for fuck's sake, the OP talked about "cleansing ourselves of this blight we have lived with since '07".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsBB93IqJkE
Does this scene provoke the strong emotion of the op? Seems about the same to me. Catharsis, purge, exorcism, getting rid of the albatross; all are evocative. Nothing more provocative than doing it with fire as well. I'd hate to see a time come to pass when strong emotion is relegated to the "two minute hate".
Quote from: Piestrio;755711Dumb
Hell yeah.
Cut me a deal good enough and I'll take it off folks' hands, and I'm not even a 4e fan.
Oh, somebody's burning his D&D books? Jack Chick would be so proud.
Quote from: cavalier973;767010Oh, somebody's burning his D&D books? Jack Chick would be so proud.
Nailed it.
That's it asshole... Enjoy yourself... SURE you can smoke... Hehe
(http://tenfootpole.org/ironspike/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/4e.jpg)
I'll send you my address and you can mail them to me if all your going to do is burn them. Considering that 4E is probably my favorite editions so far, I'd be happy to take them off your hands. Heck, I'd even pay you for them (for a reduced price because they're used).
Quote from: Batman;767357I'll send you my address and you can mail them to me if all your going to do is burn them. Considering that 4E is probably my favorite editions so far, I'd be happy to take them off your hands. Heck, I'd even pay you for them (for a reduced price because they're used).
But then he won't be able to show everyone how big and impressive his penis is by destroying something that displeases him!
Quote from: LibraryLass;767364But then he won't be able to show everyone how big and impressive his penis is by destroying something that displeases him!
Unfortunately your probably right. I could use another 4E PHB too :(
Quote from: LibraryLass;767364But then he won't be able to show everyone how big and impressive his penis is by destroying something that displeases him!
If that's the case, I do see a perfect trade opportunity for both of you.
Quote from: Rincewind1;767369If that's the case, I do see a perfect trade opportunity for both of you.
I'd honestly put up money for the books if all they're going to do is be burned.
What price, creation?
It's art. The juxtaposition between creation and destruction is commentary on the values of the contemporary age.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;767379What price, creation?
It's art. The juxtaposition between creation and destruction is commentary on the values of the contemporary age.
$60.00 for the Core books plus $15 per supplement.
Well, I suppose there's something fitting in that sort of end for the dungeon furnace on the cover.
Like WAllmart in South Park, so the 4e falls to the purifying flames.
Quote from: Rincewind1;767369If that's the case, I do see a perfect trade opportunity for both of you.
...I beg your pardon?
Quote from: Rincewind1;767369If that's the case, I do see a perfect trade opportunity for both of you.
Nah, that would be a downgrade even by his shriveled and miniature standards.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;767379What price, creation?
It's art. The juxtaposition between creation and destruction is commentary on the values of the contemporary age.
True, art trumps all. So mote it be. :pundit:
(http://tenfootpole.org/ironspike/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/IMG_1407-1024x497.jpg)
Quote from: bryce0lynch;767647(http://tenfootpole.org/ironspike/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/IMG_1407-1024x497.jpg)
That's a large collection of a game you apparently despise.....It only took 2 TSR-era books to make me realize that the game just wasn't for me.
That....is a lot of books! I thought it would be in the 4-5 range...
Quote from: Zachary The First;767719That....is a lot of books! I thought it would be in the 4-5 range...
It's about 45 or so, with some more arriving this evening. I've got 2 cases of beer chilling, a SONOS loaded with fire songs, and several roasting hens and rabbits ready to go on a spit. I'm stopping on the way home for cigars and some roman wands of magic missle/fireball. We're gonna strike up the torches on the path to the bonfire, get the acid ready and ... goof off, celebrating the return of D&D and official demise of 4.0.
Still on the fence about rigging up a plank for the books to walk, a blindfold for them, and a goblet full of red wine/kris knife.
Also, wizard hat, robes, and crowbar. (You're supposed to come dressed as your favorite adventuring class, or in your sexiest black gamer T.)
I'm expecting about 40 folks, although, as the chief asshat, I expect I'll be the only one dressed.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;767647(http://tenfootpole.org/ironspike/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/IMG_1407-1024x497.jpg)
Why do you have so many 4E books if you can't stand the edition?
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;767726Why do you have so many 4E books if you can't stand the edition?
Derp?
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;767726Why do you have so many 4E books if you can't stand the edition?
He's collected books from multiple people. They're gonna have a party, it's not just him.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;767726Why do you have so many 4E books if you can't stand the edition?
That's my thought. Before I gave mine away I had like 6-7 books total?
@CRKrueger, so that's it. Makes way more sense now.
There's a party down in Indy?
Yup, @7. 65th & Allisonville. Come on by.
And tomorrow we'll be capitalizing on the attendance by doing some hardcore boardgaming with bigger/heavier games.
And all day 5e D&D (http://www.meetup.com/indygaming/events/187174872/) next Saturday.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;767751Yup, @7. 65th & Allisonville. Come on by.
And tomorrow we'll be capitalizing on the attendance by doing some hardcore boardgaming with bigger/heavier games.
And all day 5e D&D (http://www.meetup.com/indygaming/events/187174872/) next Saturday.
Please take and post pictures.
It's not too late to stop acting like an idiot and just donate or sell them, Bryce.
You can even still have a party.
Burn them Bryce, and have a grand, hedonistic orgy!
Quote from: LibraryLass;767774It's not too late to stop acting like an idiot and just donate or sell them, Bryce.
You can even still have a party.
I agree. I mean, it's your patch if you want to burn them, Bryce, but it really is an unpleasant tack to take.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;767751Yup, @7. 65th & Allisonville. Come on by.
And tomorrow we'll be capitalizing on the attendance by doing some hardcore boardgaming with bigger/heavier games.
And all day 5e D&D (http://www.meetup.com/indygaming/events/187174872/) next Saturday.
Is that tonight? I might drive down, though I'm not a big partier, left that behind, but it would be nice to meet people.
Quote from: CRKrueger;767741He's collected books from multiple people. They're gonna have a party, it's not just him.
The picture seems to indicate a single person's books. I don't see any multiples. If it were multiple people donating a reviled game, I'd expect lots of PHBs, DMGs, and MMs and very few of the supplements. Instead we see a very filled out intial launch to kickoff of Essentials library. To me that says it's just one person's books.
If he didn't like it, he certainly followed it religiously.
That being said, I had a nearly complete set of all the hardcovers released for D&D3.5 before I purged them years ago. I hated D&D 3.5.
Oddly, I like Pathfinder. I still haven't figured that one out.
Quote from: CRKrueger;767741He's collected books from multiple people. They're gonna have a party, it's not just him.
I see.
Quote from: dragoner;767786Is that tonight? I might drive down, though I'm not a big partier, left that behind, but it would be nice to meet people.
Yup, in just a couple of hours!
Quote from: Géza Echs;767780I agree. I mean, it's your patch if you want to burn them, Bryce, but it really is an unpleasant tack to take.
Especially since one or two of those books ( Dark Sun Campaign Setting, at least) are in demand, I believe.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;767819Yup, in just a couple of hours!
Ok, I might drop by, thanks. :)
Quote from: dragoner;767826Ok, I might drop by, thanks. :)
Smuggle them out and sell them, Dragoner! Profit by his ignorance!
The dionysians lament: the bunnies are sold out and you can't get fresh hog heads anymore. :(
Quote from: LibraryLass;767829Smuggle them out and sell them, Dragoner! Profit by his ignorance!
Oh, but what an unkind guest I'd be though. :p
Quote from: bryce0lynch;767837The dionysians lament: the bunnies are sold out and you can't get fresh hog heads anymore. :(
There's a place up on SR37 near my neck of the woods that sells elk; just north of Noblesville. Suitable substitute?
Quote from: dragoner;767839Oh, but what an unkind guest I'd be though. :p
Yes, obviously as a Teuton your forte is more pouring gas than saving books ;).
Quote from: dragoner;767826Ok, I might drop by, thanks. :)
I start to get a vibe you should pack toga, bird mask, lube and rubbers.
Quote from: Zachary The First;767841There's a place up on SR37 near my neck of the woods that sells elk; just north of Noblesville. Suitable substitute?
:(
I just REALLY wanted some heads to put on stakes.
:(
Quote from: bryce0lynch;767848:(
I just REALLY wanted some heads to put on stakes.
:(
What happens to a dream deferred?
Quote from: Rincewind1;767842Yes, obviously as a Teuton your forte is ...
... drinking beer.
QuoteI start to get a vibe you should pack ...
A beer or six (pack). ;)
Quote from: dragoner;767870A beer or six (pack). ;)
Are you off to a party or having dinner with wife? What kind of decision that is!
(And I am assuming proper 0,5l beers, not those crappy small tins of yours)
Quote from: Rincewind1;767871Are you off to a party or having dinner with wife? What kind of decision that is!
(And I am assuming proper 0,5l beers, not those crappy small tins of yours)
Enough to share, and there was a glut of the big cans of Pilsner Urquell around here lately. Getting loaded isn't the plan either, but it would be nice to meet others nearby. I'm an old Teuton, my sacking Rome days are over.
Quote from: dragoner;767874Enough to share, and there was a glut of the big cans of Pilsner Urquell around here lately. Getting loaded isn't the plan either, but it would be nice to meet others nearby. I'm an old Teuton, my sacking Rome days are over.
That's why I didn't say obviously to bring two six packs.
I don't think that material will impart a delicious smoke flavor to the rabbits and hens. I recommend cherry or alder chips. Do you have a good marinade or rub?
Also remember, life is too short for bad domestic beer, so ante up for quality. Unless you want to bathe in it. A Keystone or Natty Lite jacuzzi does wonders for the skin, so says my inebriated inner voice.
Pre-party, getting ready ...
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-nqx3dXybR04/U8BsowJPOJI/AAAAAAAAAhA/lNc-j5J8_f8/w640-h478-no/Burn+-+2)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-1SQhUjRdgEE/U8Bsoz4D5aI/AAAAAAAAAhA/IMdRKiZl2lQ/w640-h478-no/Burn+-+4)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-0gluNgt3qhY/U8Bso6Q39wI/AAAAAAAAAhA/oMefm1D-KBU/w640-h478-no/Burn+-+1)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-fJmdbZELJgo/U8Bso1W-S8I/AAAAAAAAAhA/EGFOvnA2xNs/w640-h478-no/Burn+-+3)
Hey! And Dragoner showed up!
Quote from: bryce0lynch;767993Pre-party, getting ready ...
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-nqx3dXybR04/U8BsowJPOJI/AAAAAAAAAhA/lNc-j5J8_f8/w640-h478-no/Burn+-+2)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-1SQhUjRdgEE/U8Bsoz4D5aI/AAAAAAAAAhA/IMdRKiZl2lQ/w640-h478-no/Burn+-+4)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-0gluNgt3qhY/U8Bso6Q39wI/AAAAAAAAAhA/oMefm1D-KBU/w640-h478-no/Burn+-+1)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-fJmdbZELJgo/U8Bso1W-S8I/AAAAAAAAAhA/EGFOvnA2xNs/w640-h478-no/Burn+-+3)
Hey! And Dragoner showed up!
That's awesome!
Quote from: bryce0lynch;767751Yup, @7. 65th & Allisonville. Come on by.
And tomorrow we'll be capitalizing on the attendance by doing some hardcore boardgaming with bigger/heavier games.
And all day 5e D&D (http://www.meetup.com/indygaming/events/187174872/) next Saturday.
It's just been released and you're burning that as well? Maybe give it a rest now, Goebbels loves you, ffs enough already.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;767993Hey! And Dragoner showed up!
Yes, under the light of a full moon, in the woods, out by the murder-cabin, many 4e books were burned; plus beers drunk and cigars smoked. I had a great time, thanks Bryce! :)
Quote from: Gabriel2;767793The picture seems to indicate a single person's books. I don't see any multiples. If it were multiple people donating a reviled game, I'd expect lots of PHBs, DMGs, and MMs and very few of the supplements. Instead we see a very filled out intial launch to kickoff of Essentials library. To me that says it's just one person's books.
If he didn't like it, he certainly followed it religiously.
Yeah that was his books.
Well. Nice job. Feel like a big man, now, do you?
I put on my wizard hat and robes, and carried my murder hobo crowbar.
Anointing the victims with wine:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/ZpL050EbcMuabObZ3zwUmcDkvZmfLKPN51-sD2eizno=w968-h723)
First batch:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-JuV8efOy_fs/U8E5MRE_5eI/AAAAAAAAAj0/4_v6VW-LSiQ/w968-h723-no/IMG_1424.JPG)
A nice warm fire on a warm night. The first full moon of summer, I believe?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-VS6hhvt3Yy0/U8E5PCfd6nI/AAAAAAAAAkE/EbKccaXNqRY/w968-h723-no/IMG_1435.JPG)
This morning:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-n9oFOCoQwVw/U8E3z9k6yuI/AAAAAAAAAiQ/9Cft-EmWqk8/w968-h723-no/IMG_1469.JPG)
Wait ... what's that? It looks like not everything burned. :(
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-e_U9vS_LhEw/U8E3zjqQWrI/AAAAAAAAAiI/rdmmjahPI1o/w968-h723-no/IMG_1470.JPG)
Hmmm, I don't remember something like that ... what's going on here?
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-hNvUXmcW9gU/U8E30DH-u4I/AAAAAAAAAiU/XSjMVf_WQcE/w968-h723-no/IMG_1472.JPG)
The sun shines brighter this morning! Look! It's a miracle! Reborn from the ashes of shit! Unburned! Unsullied! D&D is back! Finally! All will be right with the world!
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ezwCaWHFDKI/U8E4DuCwTUI/AAAAAAAAAic/bSE4fBjXyvI/w968-h723-no/IMG_1473.JPG)
From the day of it's birth D&D 5th Edition Starter Set was called by name.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-QivHGTaqZB4/U8E4GUVFLkI/AAAAAAAAAis/Or7682sZRjQ/w968-h723-no/IMG_1475.JPG)
There were heartfelt testimonials from several people right before Dragoner arrived. Mine were fairly innocuous and rang through on themes from my reviews: the triumph of The Technocracy over The Traditions, turning an imaginative dream in to mechanistic drudgery. Others were not so kind, and I was a bit surprised at the venom. The splitting of groups, the loss of friendships, the breakup of games and drifting apart of old friends. Forcing people in to Not-D&D in order to play. I guess it's not all that surprising; RPG's are best when they are social games, shared among friends, and combined with the awkwardness that can make social interactions difficult, it's no wonder that there were such strong feelings ... about an elf game.
EDIT: Comment from attendee:
It feels genuinely a bit like when you finally let go of crap from your last relationship and open your life and heart to the next wonderful thing. It was yes; wrong feeling, to burn all those beautifully bound and illustrated hardback books.. But it's also a fairly pure FTW sort of sensation. I love it! Thank you everyone who shared in the experience!!!
So, when do you intend to start on the fans? ;)
Between posts like this and the controversy swirling around B33, I'm beginning to think I'll be unwelcome in 5E even if the game itself is perfectly good--the culture surrounding it will demand oaths and renunciations I'm not willing to make.
That is the dumbest fucking thing I have ever seen at a gaming forum.
And I used to frequent RPGnet, White Wolf and Palladium forums.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;768078So, when do you intend to start on the fans? ;)
Between posts like this and the controversy swirling around B33, I'm beginning to think I'll be unwelcome in 5E even if the game itself is perfectly good--the culture surrounding it will demand oaths and renunciations I'm not willing to make.
Don't be daft. Burning the books has been denounced by 90 per cent of the people in this thread, most of whom seem happy enough with 5E.
Quote from: Haffrung;768080Don't be daft. Burning the books has been denounced by 90 per cent of the people in this thread, most of whom seem happy enough with 5E.
Fair enough; I may be overreacting. But there does seem to be a strong strain of
schaudenfreude and contempt for anyone who dares to appreciate 4E running through the current climate; it may be a minority, but it's a loud one.
Still, it's all very early days, and it may wind up being just a brief and noisy squall.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;768078Between posts like this and the controversy swirling around B33, I'm beginning to think I'll be unwelcome in 5E even if the game itself is perfectly good--the culture surrounding it will demand oaths and renunciations I'm not willing to make.
B33? The Horsehead Nebula?
I wouldn't worry about it. A lot of people are going to move on to 5e. All the non-purple 4e fans are going to realize the hard book options will bring back most of 4e anyway.
Quote from: The Butcher;768079That is the dumbest fucking thing I have ever seen at a gaming forum.
And I used to frequent RPGnet, White Wolf and Palladium forums.
For me, the impact of 4e was all circumstantial. I didn't play 3e at the time, WotC had lost me as a customer long before with their shitty writing. However, I did see the impact of the edition, the fragmented groups, the people that used to get along playing 3e even if it wasn't their favorite game now split between PF and 4e because D&D - wasn't D&D anymore. Every town has it's own meta-culture regarding gaming. Perhaps Indy was more fragmented then most.
Looking at all the venom 4e inspired and is still inspiring to this day as the raison d'être behind actual attempts to ruin people's careers, maybe it should be burned. If this lets some people just move the fuck on, maybe it's a good thing. Maybe we just witnessed the final nail in the coffin of civilization, and all that is left is decay. Maybe it's a ridiculous First World problem and we should stop focusing on the pebble at our feet and look up to start climbing the mountain in front of us.:idunno:
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;768081Fair enough; I may be overreacting. But there does seem to be a strong strain of schaudenfreude and contempt for anyone who dares to appreciate 4E running through the current climate; it may be a minority, but it's a loud one.
Still, it's all very early days, and it may wind up being just a brief and noisy squall.
Heh, it's entirely deserved, but it's confined to the internet. I'm not envisioning 4e boycotts at your local FLGS.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;768078So, when do you intend to start on the fans? ;)
It depends. Are you well marbled but with good underlying muscle structure, neither fat nor skinny and not too old?
Quote from: D-503;768093It depends. Are you well marbled but with good underlying muscle structure, neither fat nor skinny and not too old?
You can always spot an Arduin fan.
Quote from: The Butcher;768079That is the dumbest fucking thing I have ever seen at a gaming forum.
And I used to frequent RPGnet, White Wolf and Palladium forums.
No, no, don't you see? It was necessary! We wouldn't have known Bryce hates 4e otherwise, because his complaining about it didn't give us a clear enough picture! He had to make this boorish, primal display of his contempt or we might think he was a little bitch!
Quote from: LibraryLass;767364show everyone how big and impressive his penis is
Quote from: LibraryLass;767451his shriveled and miniature standards.
Quote from: LibraryLass;768033Feel like a big man, now, do you?
Quote from: LibraryLass;768123boorish, primal display
Quote from: LibraryLass;768123little bitch!
Fall into stereotype much? :rolleyes:
Quote from: Bilharzia;768012It's just been released and you're burning that as well? Maybe give it a rest now, Goebbels loves you, ffs enough already.
IF you actually clicked the link, or thought for a moment from context, you would realise he's PLAYING 5e.
Also, you should've had a rule Bryce - everyone who comes in, must throw at least one book in.
Quote from: CRKrueger;768086B33? The Horsehead Nebula?
Armchair Gamer has confused D&D with
Traveller.
Quote from: CRKrueger;768127Fall into stereotype much? :rolleyes:
Feeling the need to destroy something that goes against one's tastes seems to me to be a telltale mark of some deep insecurity. I want him to feel shame for what he's done, and so I'm going to needle at that insecurity for as long as this thread remains open.
Quote from: LibraryLass;768139Feeling the need to destroy something that goes against one's tastes seems to me to be a telltale mark of some deep insecurity.
You mean like your failed attempts to make him feel bad about what he has done?
Quote from: LibraryLass;768139Feeling the need to destroy something that goes against one's tastes seems to me to be a telltale mark of some deep insecurity. I want him to feel shame for what he's done, and so I'm going to needle at that insecurity for as long as this thread remains open.
Insecure? He gives out a statement he knows he'll get flack for, he's not fighting back to say it's completely alright and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it and you're all just drama queens who can't take it, he delivers the picture and brags about a great party?
If that's insecurity, I don't ever want to be secure about myself. I mean come on, the man has Marmite or Vegemite in his avatar. If I ate that stuff, it'd be a secret I'd guard to the grave.
Quote from: CRKrueger;768127Fall into stereotype much? :rolleyes:
I genuinely loled :D.
Quote from: jeff37923;768141You mean like your failed attempts to make him feel bad about what he has done?
I prefer to think of it as tenacity. :p
Quote from: Rincewind1;768142Insecure? He gives out a statement he knows he'll get flack for, he's not fighting back to say it's completely alright and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it and you're all just drama queens who can't take it, he delivers the picture and brags about a great party?
If that's insecurity, I don't ever want to be secure about myself. I mean come on, the man has Marmite or Vegemite in his avatar. If I ate that stuff, it'd be a secret I'd guard to the grave.
I genuinely loled :D.
If he did something else abhorrent, people might try and shame him for that.
Fuck, I'd be doing this if he piled his bonfire high with RaHoWa and FATAL, burning books is just douchey.
Quote from: LibraryLass;768139Feeling the need to destroy something that goes against one's tastes seems to me to be a telltale mark of some deep insecurity. I want him to feel shame for what he's done, and so I'm going to needle at that insecurity for as long as this thread remains open.
So self-admittedly,
nothing but passive-aggressive off-topic personal sexuality attacks for the rest of the thread?
This thread should have been closed or moved a long time ago, so not sure it's possible to disrupt this thread, but sheesh.
Quote from: LibraryLass;768139I want him to feel shame for what he's done ...
So what about mirth? We found it funny the outrage. Though the purge, exorcising the demon factor, that dominated.
Quote from: dragoner;768148So what about mirth? We found it funny the outrage. Though the purge, exorcising the demon factor, that dominated.
Ah of course - Lutheran heretics and cleansing by fire, makes perfect sense ;).
Quote from: dragoner;768148So what about mirth? We found it funny the outrage. Though the purge, exorcising the demon factor, that dominated.
Was it at least derisive mirth?
Man, you guys have a nice set up out there. It would have been nice to be able to make it out for the gaming, but I appreciate the invite nonetheless.
I can't think of the last time we've gamed outdoors...
Quote from: Rincewind1;768150Ah of course - Lutheran heretics and cleansing by fire, makes perfect sense ;).
Ha! That's because they overran you, down south it was the other way around; which is hugely ironic, look at Salzburg's flag and tell whose it resembles upside down. ;)
Quote from: LibraryLass;768152Was it at least derisive mirth?
Drunken more so.
Quote from: dragoner;768159Ha! That's because they overran you, down south it was the other way around; which is hugely ironic, look at Salzburg's flag and tell whose it resembles upside down. ;)
I genuinely have no idea what it's supposed to resemble. And well, we were more overran by Calvinists than Lutherans per se ;).
Quote from: Rincewind1;768160I genuinely have no idea what it's supposed to resemble.
Honest? It's Poland's flag. Re: overrunning, well after being handed off to the Habsburgs after the Congress of Vienna, it was the Piefke. :p
Quote from: dragoner;768159Ha! That's because they overran you, down south it was the other way around; which is hugely ironic, look at Salzburg's flag and tell whose it resembles upside down. ;)
Drunken more so.
...I'll take it, I guess. :idunno:
Quote from: dragoner;768166Honest? It's Poland's flag. Re: overrunning, well after being handed off to the Habsburgs after the Congress of Vienna, it was the Piefke. :p
Ah, the darn Prussians...and the darn Austrians. Which Salzburg flag you are talking about then?
And oooh yes now I see it - I was looking at Salzburg's coat of arms, not flag. Stupid me.
Quote from: Rincewind1;768169Ah, the darn Prussians...and the darn Austrians. Which Salzburg flag you are talking about then?
And oooh yes now I see it - I was looking at Salzburg's coat of arms, not flag. Stupid me.
Thus the irony of north and south. IIRC, the Catholic punishment for sorcery was to be burned at the stake.
Aww, and with a cathartic rebirth narrative... art does trump all. :)
Anyhoo, not something I'd readily do, but the books did serve a final purpose besides wasteful archival or landfill decomposition (you don't think libraries, secondhand, and bookstores keep everything do you?).
Besides, there is no obligation to a mere fraction of tens of thousands of identical objects. Otherwise I'd need to archive my own soda cans and ketchup bottles over the years. I'm not paid to hoard, tragically not being a venerable dragon myself.
Or in more fun terms: no god, no sin. no obligation, no shame.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;768078Between posts like this and the controversy swirling around B33, I'm beginning to think I'll be unwelcome in 5E even if the game itself is perfectly good--the culture surrounding it will demand oaths and renunciations I'm not willing to make.
What's B33? The statement about LGBT characters on page 33 of Basic? That didn't strike me as being a 4E vs 5E thing.
Personally, a culture which tells homophobes and transphobes to fuck off seems like a culture I'm glad to be associated with.
Quote from: CRKrueger;768086However, I did see the impact of the edition, the fragmented groups, the people that used to get along playing 3e even if it wasn't their favorite game now split between PF and 4e because D&D - wasn't D&D anymore. Every town has it's own meta-culture regarding gaming. Perhaps Indy was more fragmented then most.
I couldn't care less for what other gaming groups are doing that's not worth stealing. If you have a cool dungeon or houserule or hexmap or adventure hook, or if you tried a new game and can intelligibly articulate why you loved or hated it, I'll be all over it.
But "I won't play with these people because they play Game X" is a mindset that's completely foreign to me. I mean, I ran OD&D to my current gaming group, and 3 out of 8 people hated it. After they voiced their reservations about the ruleset, I made it clear that I wasn't going to change the rules and that if they didn't want to play again, I'd be fine with it, because
it's a fucking game and it's stupid to force yourself to play a game you don't enjoy.So I get to hang out with these three when we're playing Vampire: the Requiem (or boardgames, or going out for drinks, or a rock concert) but they don't show up when I'm running OD&D. I really don't see the grounded for "ZOMG 4e split the fanbase" outside the intarwebz.
Quote from: CRKrueger;768086Looking at all the venom 4e inspired and is still inspiring to this day as the raison d'être behind actual attempts to ruin people's careers, maybe it should be burned. If this lets some people just move the fuck on, maybe it's a good thing. Maybe we just witnessed the final nail in the coffin of civilization, and all that is left is decay. Maybe it's a ridiculous First World problem and we should stop focusing on the pebble at our feet and look up to start climbing the mountain in front of us.:idunno:
Or maybe some people should get off the Internet, start gaming and only return when they have something useful to share with the community other than bile and vitriol. Opinions, assholes, etc.
Quote from: dragoner;768171Thus the irony of north and south. IIRC, the Catholic punishment for sorcery was to be burned at the stake.
The Catholic punishment for sorcery was to burn the
accuser for blasphemy, since their position was that no supernatural power other than God could exist.
Or at least it was in the middle ages, post-Malleus Maleficarum I think they went with hanging. Burning was for apostasy and heresy.
Butcher, I must point out your versatile, pan-social ableism is really non-inclusive. It's just not funny anymore! You need to curb your violent tone and triggers.
:p
Quote from: Opaopajr;768519Butcher, I must point out your versatile, pan-social ableism is really non-inclusive. It's just not funny anymore! You need to curb your violent tone and triggers.
:p
Can we please lay off the trigger jokes? I mean I know who you're actually
trying to have a go at, but... PTSD is a real thing and it sucks and I wish we'd keep in mind who's getting caught in the crossfire with that sort of flippancy?
Quote from: Opaopajr;768519Butcher, I must point out your versatile, pan-social ableism is really non-inclusive. It's just not funny anymore! You need to curb your violent tone and triggers.
:p
I know, right? And the worst part is
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m50079GH271qfggsro6_250.gif)
Quote from: LibraryLass;768526Can we please lay off the trigger jokes? I mean I know who you're actually trying to have a go at, but... PTSD is a real thing and it sucks and I wish we'd keep in mind who's getting caught in the crossfire with that sort of flippancy?
The joke here is at the expense of concern trolls and slacktivists who cry "trigger" at people being mean on the Internet, appropriating and cheapening the struggle of actual PTSD sufferers. Which one are you? ;)
Group burns the books of the game they despise
Group then immediately pick up and plays a game with tons of elements from the first game....
:facepalm:
Quote from: Batman;768529Group burns the books of the game they despise
Group then immediately pick up and plays a game with tons of elements from the first game....
:facepalm:
Duel of Ages 2? Cause that's what we picked up & played the next day.
Quote from: LibraryLass;768511The Catholic punishment for sorcery was to burn the accuser for blasphemy, since their position was that no supernatural power other than God could exist.
Or at least it was in the middle ages, post-Malleus Maleficarum I think they went with hanging. Burning was for apostasy and heresy.
I was told, no guarantees of veracity, but supposedly there was a letter of admonishment from the Vatican, that one of my ancestors who was a "Black Knight", eg Catholic; had a Priest burned at the stake. Chopped his hands off too, the charge claimed sorcery, but the word is that it was over money. Oh those crazy times, nothing like divine right.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;768540Duel of Ages 2? Cause that's what we picked up & played the next day.
How was game day, A little fuzzy?
Very fuzzy. Slept about 3 hours, woke up hungover with a cold, and had 2 hours till the game day. Played DOA2, Downfall of Pompeii and Kremlin. Some other games were going on in the other rooms.
DOA2 is the second bestest game ever, right after D&D.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;768561DOA2 is the second bestest game ever, right after D&D.
I've seen it, never seen it played, actually looks a little complex for a day after; but that all sounds really cool.
So dude has party and burns his own property in a fire, people are outraged..? Protip: burning a book you despise isn't immoral. In fact, it can be quite cathartic.
Also, LibraryLass is a fucking idiot. Sounds like she's read too much Saul Alinsky.
Quote from: dragoner;768564I've seen it, never seen it played, actually looks a little complex for a day after; but that all sounds really cool.
It looks a lot more complex than it is. And once you grok it moves SUPER fast.
EDIT: Seriously, this game is one of the best ever. It NEVER gets old.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;768540Duel of Ages 2? Cause that's what we picked up & played the next day.
Thought you said you played D&D:Next
5e was reborn from the flames.
We're doing a 12-hour Starter Set play-through this coming Saturday with 26 people. You can complain about our hypocrisy after that. :)
Quote from: bryce0lynch;7688205e was reborn from the flames.
We're doing a 12-hour Starter Set play-through this coming Saturday with 26 people. You can complain about our hypocrisy after that. :)
Will do :D
Quote from: Brad;768774So dude has party and burns his own property in a fire, people are outraged..? Protip: burning a book you despise isn't immoral. In fact, it can be quite cathartic.
Also, LibraryLass is a fucking idiot. Sounds like she's read too much Saul Alinsky.
I cannot imagine higher praise than to have Brad think I'm an idiot, so I've done my job.
I'll confess to being one in this respect, though, who's Saul Alinsky? That's the second time I've heard someone mention him this week.
Quote from: Brad;768774So dude has party and burns his own property in a fire, people are outraged..? Protip: burning a book you despise isn't immoral. In fact, it can be quite cathartic.
Also, LibraryLass is a fucking idiot. Sounds like she's read too much Saul Alinsky.
I don't know who Saul Alinsky is (though I should probably find out, because this is the second time this week I've heard someone talk about him), but given some of our previous spats, I can only consider you thinking I'm an idiot to be a great honor.
Quote from: Brad;768774So dude has party and burns his own property in a fire, people are outraged..? Protip: burning a book you despise isn't immoral. In fact, it can be quite cathartic.
Also, LibraryLass is a fucking idiot. Sounds like she's read too much Saul Alinsky.
Normally I'd take being called an idiot by someone with Brad's opinions to be high praise, but since I genuinely spaced on who Saul Alinsky is and had to look it up to remind myself, he might not be wrong.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;768777It looks a lot more complex than it is. And once you grok it moves SUPER fast.
EDIT: Seriously, this game is one of the best ever. It NEVER gets old.
Sounds like fun!
Quote from: LibraryLass;768892Normally I'd take being called an idiot by someone with Brad's opinions to be high praise
You mean my opinion about people who go about harassing someone ON THE INTERNET because they disagree? Okay.
Quote from: Brad;769043You mean my opinion about people who go about harassing someone ON THE INTERNET because they disagree? Okay.
No. I mean the other ones you have that actually are odious. I'm owning being an unreasonable bitch this time.
Quote from: LibraryLass;769236No. I mean the other ones you have that actually are odious. I'm owning being an unreasonable bitch this time.
Oh, you mean my utter disdain for progressive socialist fucktards. Got it.
Wow. The OP made a pretty stupid thread. The bar was set pretty damn high. Still, the stupiditly level was easily surpassed. Well done.
At the risk of bumping something old, I thought I would update the thread since there were a lot of comments in this one about the value of books.
For those of you interested:
My attempt to upload to G+ ended up with me accidentally oversharing the photos, which generated some interesting discussion, especially at a reshare https://plus.google.com/u/0/105240612173866817188/posts
This has raised some interesting points in my mind.
*) As an American my cultural undertones relate more to religious groups burnings stupid shit ... like D&D books. While my book burn references, and perhaps mocks, those folks there is perhaps a totally different undertone in areas with a strong history of government burning of books ... particularly Europe. So while me being a "religious ass" and referencing the old school "kill the monster with fire to fully destroy it" the European subtext is much darker. I'm certainly aware of government book burnings, but the meaning to me is completely different.
*) There are a different set of issues around the destruction of books, in particular. They seem sacrosanct, perhaps because they represent knowledge, and carry particular cultural weight. Thank Vecna for 1/2 Price books or I may still have a bookcase of thousands. Throwing away a book seems unthinkable, while donating or reselling, while having less of a mental barrier, still seems ... wrong. And the purposeful destruction? Blaspheme!
And yet ... When I was prep'ing for the 12-hour starter set run through I mentioned to my wife that I needed to spend a couple of hours copying the monsters from the back on to a reference sheet. She told me to just cut out the back pages and staple them. Genius! And yet utterly beyond my comprehension, the reverence for not destroying books is so strong. And this was AFTER the burning! She referenced an interview (on NPR I think) of some famous person saying that we have too much reverence for books. Go ahead, they said, rip out a few pages and carry it on the bus for easier reading. Think about that.
Further, is there a difference between a mass-market product and a hand made one? Hasbro net'd $4 BILLION last year on the publication of mass market toys, of which the 4e books were a part. And does it still matter if it's junk mail? Every day I stop at he end of my driveway and pick up a huge pile of circulars and magazines that go immediately in to the trash. Based purely on jobs and creative output, why are those publications valued less? And the pulping of books, in general, by the publishing industry?
Would it matter any more or less if the things destroyed were hand made? A piece of custom furniture made by hand instead of one mass produced? But isn't there still value, the SAME value, in the mass produced item? Someone put effort in to designing it and producing it, the works on the line. What's the difference? Or even, extending the analogy, to tradesmen. Laying brick for my new firepit by a mason ... why isn't that art? Do you devalue his labor and the choices he makes in designing and building it? And then recall the works of Ai Weiei where the paints, or destroys, things that are unique and handmade and REALLY old.
I don't have an answer, but it's pushing me closer and closer to attitudes I've been forming about the value of THINGS.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;772883And yet ... When I was prep'ing for the 12-hour starter set run through I mentioned to my wife that I needed to spend a couple of hours copying the monsters from the back on to a reference sheet. She told me to just cut out the back pages and staple them. Genius! And yet utterly beyond my comprehension, the reverence for not destroying books is so strong. And this was AFTER the burning! She referenced an interview (on NPR I think) of some famous person saying that we have too much reverence for books. Go ahead, they said, rip out a few pages and carry it on the bus for easier reading. Think about that.
The knowledge in the books is what is important, the book is just the technology used for transmitying the info. At least that is how I see it. With your wife. If writing in a book, tearing a page or doing whatever reconstructive surgery you need to it makes the book work better for you, by all means do so. Better that it get use this way than rest on a shelf due to reverence. I can't imagine reading a book without writing in it as i go.
Since this thread is back up, I want to apologize to OP for getting my dander up earlier, I was a real bitch.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;772909I can't imagine reading a book without writing in it as i go.
You...you...Vandal!
;)
Quote from: Bren;772957You...you...Vandal!
;)
As a child, we were told not to highlight in the Bible, or underline anything, for reasons of respect.
But if you're really going to study and dive into something, it does really help to do so...
Gamers completely oblivious to the meaning of the symbolism they're goofing around with, film at 11.
Facepalm. All of the fucking facepalms. Forever.
Quote from: GMSkarka;772990Gamers completely oblivious to the meaning of the symbolism they're goofing around with, film at 11.
Facepalm. All of the fucking facepalms. Forever.
Should you be watching films given how late you are already on Far West?
Quote from: Zachary The First;772982As a child, we were told not to highlight in the Bible, or underline anything, for reasons of respect.
But if you're really going to study and dive into something, it does really help to do so...
I'm pretty certain God wouldn't mind given he already knows your true intention.:)
Quote from: Rincewind1;772995Should you be watching films given how late you are already on Far West?
Whoah-HO! Zinger!
Contrary to the entitlement issues of socially dysfunctional nerdboys on the internet, a late project does not come with a requirement that I work on it 24/7. Given that it's currently several hours past business hours, I'm doing non-work-related things.
tl;dr version: Kiss my ass.
Quote from: Rincewind1;772995Should you be watching films given how late you are already on Far West?
Skarka fiasco: leave Kickstarters out of it;)
Quote from: Marleycat;772996I'm pretty certain God wouldn't mind given he already knows your true intention.:)
Yeah, I never saw it as bad--quite the contrary! For me, study is respect. :)
Well, ENWorld.org is in an uproar over this. (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?357490-The-edition-wars-have-hit-a-new-low)
Quote from: Jacob Marley;773017Well, ENWorld.org is in an uproar over this. (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?357490-The-edition-wars-have-hit-a-new-low)
I was initially opposed to the book burning, but now... I'm confused. ;)
I suspect we'll all live.
Apparently the American book industry pulps, burns or otherwise destroys around 40% of the books it prints.
Quote from: jadrax;773090Apparently the American book industry pulps, burns or otherwise destroys around 40% of the books it prints.
Yes, but they don't host parties or make a spectacle of it. That's the issue, the symbolic value of hosting a book burning. Images, like words, tend to accumulate meaning, and the connotations of publicly destroying books are thoroughly foul ones.
Quote from: LibraryLass;772952Since this thread is back up, I want to apologize to OP for getting my dander up earlier, I was a real bitch.
It's cool, People are people. It DID result in that one person quoting all of your small penis comments, which was pretty funny. :) Everyone is an ass sometimes.
Now, which point, pre or post burn, did you want to talk about? I think you mentioned something about the destruction of knowledge. That's clearly not the case here.
The questions I am left with are the value people place on THINGS and the impact of that on relationships. People at the event HATED 4e, not because it was a poor game but because of the damage to their relationships. Campaigns ended, groups split, friendships ended or drifted apart. It's impossible for the game to inspire hatred but quite easy for it to come from the bitterness and regret of the failed relationships that formed around the game. Because of a THING. I don't fall in to that camp, but I don't think it's a surprise given the slightly lower interpersonal skills that seem to follow the hobby. How many discussions about play end up with "Just TALK to the person!"? This question of the value of things, particularly over the value you see in others, are the real hard questions from the event.
Quote from: LibraryLass;773116Yes, but they don't host parties or make a spectacle of it. That's the issue, the symbolic value of hosting a book burning. Images, like words, tend to accumulate meaning, and the connotations of publicly destroying books are thoroughly foul ones.
Books certainly do get treated differently and seem to have much stronger feelings associated with them. The reality of the situation is, though, that none of us have ever been impacted by a real burning ... but we still have these strong feelings. (Yes, even me. Looking at the photos of the books on the fire after the event.) I don't think though that those feelings are valid any more. We now live in a time when you can't destroy an idea. In that context what then is the symbolism of the burning? Futility? Impotence?
Destroying a symbol can be cathartic and it certainly was for many of the attendees. For me it was asshattery, a bit of performance art before the 5e game day. For them (or at least some of them) though the catharsis of burning allowed them to let go of their bitterness.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;773118Books certainly do get treated differently and seem to have much stronger feelings associated with them. The reality of the situation is, though, that none of us have ever been impacted by a real burning ... but we still have these strong feelings. (Yes, even me. Looking at the photos of the books on the fire after the event.) I don't think though that those feelings are valid any more. We now live in a time when you can't destroy an idea. In that context what then is the symbolism of the burning? Futility? Impotence?
Destroying a symbol can be cathartic and it certainly was for many of the attendees. For me it was asshattery, a bit of performance art before the 5e game day. For them (or at least some of them) though the catharsis of burning allowed them to let go of their bitterness.
That's a compelling perspective. The 4e edition war was a bitter one. I can understand how it might be a much-needed catharsis for those who developed rifts in their gaming group and stuff.
I think, in reference to your question, it suggests a kind of spiteful defiance. Sort of Luciferian, if you follow my meaning. Like saying "if we could destroy this thing utterly we would, but lacking that power we will symbolically do so as a middle finger to that which I find detestable about it."
Quote from: bryce0lynch;773117It's cool, People are people. It DID result in that one person quoting all of your small penis comments, which was pretty funny. :) Everyone is an ass sometimes.
Now, which point, pre or post burn, did you want to talk about? I think you mentioned something about the destruction of knowledge. That's clearly not the case here.
The questions I am left with are the value people place on THINGS and the impact of that on relationships. People at the event HATED 4e, not because it was a poor game but because of the damage to their relationships. Campaigns ended, groups split, friendships ended or drifted apart. It's impossible for the game to inspire hatred but quite easy for it to come from the bitterness and regret of the failed relationships that formed around the game. Because of a THING. I don't fall in to that camp, but I don't think it's a surprise given the slightly lower interpersonal skills that seem to follow the hobby. How many discussions about play end up with "Just TALK to the person!"? This question of the value of things, particularly over the value you see in others, are the real hard questions from the event.
It's a little saddening that something as ultimately minor as taste in one set of gaming rules over another can arouse such passion as to drive a rift between friends. How much of our identity do we wrap up in things? I think when emotions run as high as they did in this context, and in the debate surrounding it, when things become literally inflammatory, it suggests that the answer to that question is "too much".
The funniest thing for me, is that it is one thing to say, "I went down to a party in Indy" and completely another to say, "I went to a book burning party"; which of course I haven't said to anyone. People have a tendency to wear me out anyways (I'm an introvert), but there isn't any good way to explain it, slightly risqué, sure.