I didn't see any mention of this on the forum. So I'd like to share it:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1216685848/the-dark-eye-rpgenglish-edition
I've never played this game before, but the digital package is quite affordable (only $20) so I decided to jump in. I've heard this game is like Germany's D&D, so I'm quite curious.
There is a free QuickStart available on the main page of the KS. It comes with some pregenerated characters, it's unfortunate the special abilities of the characters (other than spells) are not explained in the QS, so one can't have a full TDE experience with just the QS since we don't know the mechanical impact of the special abilities.
At first I wasn't convinced about making three rolls for each Skill check, but I made a couple of rolls and it doesn't seem to slow down things as much as I thought at first.
The artwork for the book is top-notch, I quite love it.
Didn't they do this before? I could have sworn I saw a Dark Eye English book in a FLGS used book section. Ok, yep, that was 4th Edition I guess, and this one is 5th.
Any Continentals want to chime in on TDE, especially any difference between 4th and 5th?
For a game with so much history, so tied to the setting, with such a long and omnipresent metaplot, that getting in with one English book in the 5th edition means if you care about the history of the setting and game at all, you're gonna wait years for translated books that may or may not come - or learn German well enough to read RPGs.
Hate to point this out, but it's already up for pre-order on Amazon, it's more than 25% off... So... Y'know, if you don't care about the Adventure in physical form, it'd be cheaper to get the Digital tier and then order the core off Amazon for $36 :P
In the US anyway.
Quote from: CRKrueger;896739Any Continentals want to chime in on TDE, especially any difference between 4th and 5th?
For what' I've read in other forums 4th Edition was a mess and it didn't work out.
Quote from: CRKrueger;896739For a game with so much history, so tied to the setting, with such a long and omnipresent metaplot, that getting in with one English book in the 5th edition means if you care about the history of the setting and game at all, you're gonna wait years for translated books that may or may not come - or learn German well enough to read RPGs.
The KS page has a release schedule for all the German books published so far for 5th Edition for what I heard a german player said on other forum.
I'm tempted to pledge for the deluxe tier if only to get all the chits and cards out the way so i'm not chasing them up afterwards, the only thing im not that keen on is that leatherette cover edition they give at that tier as i'd rather have the basic edition with really nice cover.
Quote from: CRKrueger;896739For a game with so much history, so tied to the setting, with such a long and omnipresent metaplot, that getting in with one English book in the 5th edition means if you care about the history of the setting and game at all, you're gonna wait years for translated books that may or may not come - or learn German well enough to read RPGs.
On the other hand, getting in with one English book might also save you from the omnipresent metaplot, canon purism and blatant railroading the German edition is infamous for.
I'd read somewhere that Shane Lacy Hensley has headed up Ulisses Spiele's English language productions, Torg Eternity and The Dark Eye. I've been involved with two Pinnacle Kickstarter's and both were delivered in a timely fashion. Which is a good sign.
However, I don't really know much about The Dark Eye outside of the Drakensang video game. Whenever the German game gets mentioned it seems to have quite a lot of negative opinion. Most Germans seem to have grown up with the game but I hear very few positive opinions about it. Maybe there just isn't the same level of nostalgia for old games in Germany as there is in the US and UK.
I dropped them a message about the book and they offered to refund me 25 bucks off the pledge price and swap the books for me so they seem like damn good folks at least on that side of things.
They also have a bunch of stuff planned for release through the end of next year so we should get plenty of materials to plunder for ideas even if the rules system isnt what folks are interested in.
Quote from: yojimbouk;897390I'd read somewhere that Shane Lacy Hensley has headed up Ulisses Spiele's English language productions, Torg Eternity and The Dark Eye. I've been involved with two Pinnacle Kickstarter's and both were delivered in a timely fashion. Which is a good sign.
However, I don't really know much about The Dark Eye outside of the Drakensang video game. Whenever the German game gets mentioned it seems to have quite a lot of negative opinion. Most Germans seem to have grown up with the game but I hear very few positive opinions about it. Maybe there just isn't the same level of nostalgia for old games in Germany as there is in the US and UK.
Believe me, TDE fanboys have plenty nostalgia for nothing *but* their game, bordering on cult-like devotion and a brainwashed smug attitude sometimes equalling that of Forge afficionados. Hence non-fans' negative opinion.
Of course, like with any game, there's also plenty of perfectly nice people just having fun their way with their game of choice, but it's the fanatics that stick out.
Many of its core players grew into the later editions and have played but little else. The first edition was pretty great, a roll-under D&D more or less. 2nd was neat, too, with 3rd edition the downhill slope began. Nowadays it seemingly just wants to be GURPS, but be careful mentioning this fact to TDE players! 5th edition is slightly better than the horrendous 4th, but not by much.
The game is tied to a setting, Aventuria, which is very lovely and uniquely German.
Quote from: CRKrueger;896739Any Continentals want to chime in on TDE, especially any difference between 4th and 5th?
New editions of rpg's generally come in 2 types.
I. Rebuild from the ground up (D&D 3.0 and 4 )
II. Incremental improvement of what is already there (D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder)
TDE 5th is a type II
At this stage it looks like it worked at least somewhat and trust me it needed to.
Quote from: Nerzenjäger;897491Many of its core players grew into the later editions and have played but little else. The first edition was pretty great, a roll-under D&D more or less. 2nd was neat, too, with 3rd edition the downhill slope began. Nowadays it seemingly just wants to be GURPS, but be careful mentioning this fact to TDE players! 5th edition is slightly better than the horrendous 4th, but not by much.
The game is tied to a setting, Aventuria, which is very lovely and uniquely German.
I basically agree on the setting. Some would say it is to adorably corny at times. But that is a personal taste issue. I like adorably corny.
I disagree on the rules.
DSA 1 is very rudimentary. Character creation and advancement is easy. You can do very straightforward armed combat and a bit of spellcasting. Everything else is an attribute check, the good news is that this makes your character at least very versatile, though not reliably good at anything. Combat moves at half the pace of combat in D&D 3, with less options, better defenses and more hit points. Magic is part of the adorably corny part of the game. A mighty wizard from this edition would fit in nicely in a low budget fantasy tv series aimed at children.
DSA 2+3 gives more options. Character creation and advancement gives you carpal tunnel syndrome from all the dice throwing. Your character is still very versatile but now sucks at most things. the new skill system is ummm.. "interesting". Combat has not improved, magic has gotten more interesting, but your character is less good at it.
DSA 4 is heavily influenced by games like GURPS. Character creation takes a lot longer now. Your character still sucks at most things, but now has lost a lot of that versatility. The skill system and combat have not improved. Magic has by now lost its corny charm.
DSA 5 Character creation still takes as long as 4th. But you are now once again halfway competent in a range of stuff. Skill system still weird. Combat looks to have improved to the point it is as fun as D&D 3 and later, if still moving at 1/2 that pace. The power level of a mighty wizard in this edition is basically Gandalf the grey, not Elminster of Shadowdale.
I'd say that the power level of this edition in general is comparable to 5th edition L5R
The system as described by the QuickStart seems rather simple. How complex is the final version of the game (I'm talking 5th Edition, of course, the one I backed)?
For a D&D lover who already owns a ton of D&Desques and has no sentimental attachment to the franchise — what's the pitch?
Quote from: The Butcher;897762For a D&D lover who already owns a ton of D&Desques and has no sentimental attachment to the franchise — what's the pitch?
Hm, do you own any quaint German D&Desques?
Quote from: 3rik;897771Hm, do you own any quaint German D&Desques?
Well played, sir, well played. :lol:
Seriously, though. What's the skinny?
Quote from: The Butcher;897823Well played, sir, well played. :lol:
Seriously, though. What's the skinny?
I don't know man. My only experience with it is fanboys waxing lyrical about how professional it was... when I really didn't find anything particularly appealing to what I've seen of it. Also, as has been mentioned beofre on these boards, the implied playstyle in previous editions is nuts: lots of emphasis on strictly following the published adventures, timeline and setting canon. But of course, that's easily ignored.
Quote from: Maese Mateo;897737The system as described by the QuickStart seems rather simple. How complex is the final version of the game (I'm talking 5th Edition, of course, the one I backed)?
It compares a bit to Rolemaster, the real one, not the scary phantom a lot of players have in their heads.
If the character sheets of everybody involved have been filled in completely and correctly, everybody knows the basics of stuff in the rules they will be using and there are enough d20's on the table...
No worries.
If not, you should adopt a very rules light style until you have that stuff fixed.
Honestly, TDE works when you only engage with the rules when something significant happens. Unless you want the following to happen.
(player)I make breakfast. (DM) roll 3d20 compare the first to your intuition and the 2nd and third to your dexterity. (player) after spending half a dozen points of my prepare food skill to repair that missed test in the middle I have 2 skill points left. (DM) well, that is a 1 quality level success, breakfast is edible, but does not rise above the level of porridge, no French toast for your character today.
Quote from: The Butcher;897762For a D&D lover who already owns a ton of D&Desques and has no sentimental attachment to the franchise — what's the pitch?
You get to play these guys and still be useful?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Till_Eulenspiegel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sancho_Panza
On a less flippant note.
It is a traditional fantasy rpg, but is not all that D&Desque. You approach problems more like in Call of Cthulhu. Fighting is a last resort, you tackle most problems using skills. The party healer is probably more like Rudolph van Richten (herb doctor, with a bunch of other useful skills) and not Joe the cleric. Magic is not your artillery, but a collection of slightly weird specialty tools. Power level is comparable to late Legend of the 5 Rings. Or in D&D terms, recommended starting characters are comparable to level 4-6 D&D/Pathfinder characters from a skill focused class. Avonturia's powerful can be the equivalent of seriously high level D&D 3.5 characters, but we are talking high level Bards, and rangers with only very modest magic gear, not Khelben 'Blackstaff'.
In previous editions PCs got to watch cool canon NPCs do cool stuff that is significant to the metaplot. Has this improved?
Quote from: Nerzenjäger;897491The game is tied to a setting, Aventuria, which is very lovely and uniquely German.
What, specifically, is uniquely German about it? From the Drakensang game and QuickStart it seems pretty generic fantasy. Is it like The Witcher videogames which take a bog standard fantasy world and give it a subtle Polish spin or is it more like WFRP where British humour colours an otherwise standard fantasy setting?
Quote from: yojimbouk;897947What, specifically, is uniquely German about it? From the Drakensang game and QuickStart it seems pretty generic fantasy. Is it like The Witcher videogames which take a bog standard fantasy world and give it a subtle Polish spin or is it more like WFRP where British humour colours an otherwise standard fantasy setting?
Nothing. It's just very detailed.
Quote from: 3rik;897921In previous editions PCs got to watch cool canon NPCs do cool stuff that is significant to the metaplot. Has this improved?
To early to tell. DSA 5 has produced 11 adventures to date. Sounds like a lot. However...
7 of them are intro modules that are mostly there to teach folks the new edition. Those are to low key to do directly anything metaplot related.
The 4 after them are adding to the metaplot in various ways, but we haven't yet reached the climax of the story line.
Quote from: yojimbouk;897947What, specifically, is uniquely German about it? From the Drakensang game and QuickStart it seems pretty generic fantasy. Is it like The Witcher videogames which take a bog standard fantasy world and give it a subtle Polish spin or is it more like WFRP where British humour colours an otherwise standard fantasy setting?
I disagree somewhat with 3ric on this. Certain games can only be conceived within a specific cultural context.
WFRP is not quite quintessentially British, but it is unlikely to have been created in a country without a labour party and football hooligans.
The Spanish game Aquelarre has an American spiritual equivalent in Ars Magica, a lovely game sure, but very different. It is obvious which of the 2 is the American game and which the Spanish one.
I strongly suspect that if you make a cultural anthropologist specialized in the more high brow segments of German popular culture read up on Avonturia, that he'll find a very long and detailed list of influences. Including plenty of stuff, nobody outside of Germany ever heard of.
Quote from: igor;897900You get to play these guys and still be useful?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Till_Eulenspiegel
Quote from: WikipediaMany others of Till's pranks are scatological in nature, and involve tricking people into touching, smelling, or even eating Till's excrement.
Yep, not
uniquely German, but definitely
stereotypically German.
Quote from: Gnashtooth;897982Yep, not uniquely German, but definitely stereotypically German.
I don't know where you get your stereotypes from but I've never heard of that one.
Early Aventuria was undeniably influenced by The Brothers Grimm and German folklore in general. Later editions went more and more High Medieval with the setting. It still retains some of its fairytale-like qualities, with gypsies and witches, herbalism, literally playing heroes (not just characters) and all that jazz.
Quote from: 3rik;897983I don't know where you get your stereotypes from but I've never heard of that one.
See: https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/qec2d/no_shit_on_the_german_obsession_with_shit/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/qec2d/no_shit_on_the_german_obsession_with_shit/)
In a serious regard, I'm incredibly excited about this product. I've got some of the Ral Partha (?) minis from DSA which are old Metal Magic. I love the elves and have wondered who many of the named NPCs are for quite some time, and was really disappointed to see that the FanPro release of 4.0 failed here in the US. This project looks like it's on a far better target for continued success.
Also, I just finished Chains of Satinav and Memoria which are excellent intros to the setting.
I hope we get at least one of the novels translated.
I have my fingers crossed that I can get enough locals interested to the point where I can finally abandon D&D for TDE.
The unique qualities of TDE are not the rules. The rules are as good or bad as RoleMaster, Pathfinder, AD&D 2 (+ Options?), Rêve de Dragon, and of equal complexity.
What made TDE give D&D a run for its money on the German market was a setting aimed at local sensitivities, folklore, and mass media exposure (IIRC long ago Settembrini and/or Melan mentioned Karl May, Rinaldo Rinaldini and Arpad the Gypsy as inspirations/explanations for Aventuria).
That, and the fact that fans could be part of the official history (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?762322-Das-Schwarze-Auge-is-trying-to-break-into-the-English-language-market-again&p=19247231#post19247231) (which is severely downplayed in the current edition, AFAIK).
I am afraid these elements will be invisible to foreign gamers... But it will be interesting to see what foreign gamers will make of Aventuria, how they will interpret and develop the setting via fan products, and make it their own!
An example session of TDE being played in English.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk1hiPp2nlI
I had a great time playing the quickstart last night. Rounds move very quickly since ammo has to be loaded, and switching weapons requires an action. Being faster on foot than an enemy really counts.
My group for the evening (two players) managed to survive the adventure by the skin of their teeth by clever play in combat. Rolls for checks were very quick. We're all looking forward to see what the full rules bring.
I'll be running this again on June 11 at Chicago Gameday 44.
Also, part 2 of the let's Play is up: https://youtu.be/57FW_4bbU_s
The kickstarter stretch goals have reached the:"Let's provide a stretch goal that only applies to the backers who bought a more expensive option to tempt the others to upgrade." stage.
Stretchgoals not yet mentioned but almost certain still to come.
A d12 with the symbols of the 12 gods on them as a companion piece to the d12 with the symbols of the 12 major demons of the setting.
http://www.f-shop.de/media/image/fb/77/53/14010_200x200.jpg
This adventure. Most likely first as a pdf. at the $83.000 dollar mark and then in hardcopy at the $89.000 mark together with the 4th Adventurian Herald.
http://www.wiki-aventurica.de/wiki/Datei:AB_HW4.jpg
Yet another special d6. The French kickstarter featured 4 specialty 6sided dice. We have seen 3 of those 4 on the English kickstarter.
http://www.black-book-editions.fr/crowdfunding-33.html
8 special d20's, of the kind that fill the leather dice cup they just put up as a stretch goal.
http://www.funtainmentberlin.de/site/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/DSA-5-w%C3%BCrfelbecher-promo.jpg
One of the stretch goals was a poster sized map they numbered as poster number 1. So there is presumably at least a poster number 2 amongst the goals yet to be revealed.
If you back them the reply mail mentions an interest in your t-shirt size, suggesting a t-shirt is a yet unrevealed stretch goal.
And I suspect they have 1, or 2 big items they'll reveal close to the end of the kickstarter to facilitate a massive sprint in the last couple of days.
I don't buy rounded, tumbled dice to begin with, why would I spend 2-3 times the actual die cost for a special one that has a symbol that has no actual meaning to the mechanics? I might buy symbol dice if the symbol is cool (and they actually put it on the highest number you need not the lowest), but shitty dice with a symbol isn't worth buying. I might like the Q-workshop dice if I could actually read the numbers, but they are just too damn busy.
yeah not sure why some systems feel the need for special dice all the time.
TDE uses bog standard d20s and d6s. All the special stuff in this kickstarter is a cheap way to rack up lots of stretch goals.
Quote from: Tahmoh;899417yeah not sure why some systems feel the need for special dice all the time.
There's not that much merchandise a publisher can do for RPGs. And most gamers are dice collectors.
TORG started the trend with that purple, brand-colored speckled die. (IIRC)
The TDE kickstarter used stickers as merchandise as well, they did not go over great with the English language crowd.
On a personal note, I'm still hoping (unrealistically) to get this image on a t-shirt, poster, or sticker.
http://gaiasangel.deviantart.com/art/Buddy-Praios-524171380
Quote from: CRKrueger;899388I don't buy rounded, tumbled dice to begin with
A GamePseudoscience cultist? ;)
Quote from: 3rik;899439A GamePseudoscience cultist? ;)
Pseudoscience? Tumbled dice are unbalanced. Thats' a fact. There's a reason casinos have exacting standards for what's acceptable for use in their facilities.
There is a sub-culture in American rpg gaming that only uses casino grade dice?
On second thought, don't answer that. It is better for my fragile sanity if I never find out.
Anyways, all the dice added as stretchgoals to the kickstarter up to this point have been show your friends dice, instead of use in play dice.
Quote from: 3rik;899439A GamePseudoscience cultist? ;)
Actually I started using those dice because the sharply cut edges slow and stop the die way faster. I've got Koplow and Chessex d20's that roll halfway across the table they're so rounded while an Armory d30 stops quickly. I didn't see Zocchi's video and look into the randomness issue until later. But yeah, "precision" dice are less unbalanced than tumbled dice, and that's a fact. How much, of course, is the question. I have a lot of rounded dice and I use a couple because they look cool, but I do the saltwater test on them just to make sure they're not cocked. I owe it to my players I figure to not kill them with a "lucky die".
Quote from: igor;899591There is a sub-culture in American rpg gaming that only uses casino grade dice?
On second thought, don't answer that. It is better for my fragile sanity if I never find out.
Casino dice are CNC machined to a tolerance of 2/10000th of an inch, no one makes polyhedrals like that. However, tumbled dice can be wildly out of shape and the opaque ones can have air bubbles, etc you can't see.
O God..
There are WEG Star Wars grognards out there who are casino dice only!
The Horror! The Horror!
Quote from: igor;899657O God..
There are WEG Star Wars grognards out there who are casino dice only!
The Horror! The Horror!
Are there? :D Not with Star Wars or Shadowrun, casino dice do not go well with a "Bucket 'O Dice" system. Personally I hate using casino dice, way too big.
Did the translators use correct English pronouns, or will I be assaulted with 'she' as a generic person throughout?
Quote from: AaronBrown99;899777Did the translators use correct English pronouns, or will I be assaulted with 'she' as a generic person throughout?
It seems to be written in a style that avoids using he and/or she.
As an addendum to my earlier kickstarter predictions.
The 4th (and last) 6 sided die will be the reward of the $95.000 stretchgoal.
Randomizing dice is just as easily done by shaking them in your hands or a dice cup and then slapping them on the table surface without rolling. The whole "unbalanced" thing becomes irrelevant then, if it wasn't already.
Quote from: CRKrueger;899646Actually I started using those dice because the sharply cut edges slow and stop the die way faster. I've got Koplow and Chessex d20's that roll halfway across the table they're so rounded while an Armory d30 stops quickly. I didn't see Zocchi's video and look into the randomness issue until later. But yeah, "precision" dice are less unbalanced than tumbled dice, and that's a fact. How much, of course, is the question. I have a lot of rounded dice and I use a couple because they look cool, but I do the saltwater test on them just to make sure they're not cocked. I owe it to my players I figure to not kill them with a "lucky die".
Randomizing dice is just as easily done by shaking them in your hands or a dice cup and then slapping them on the table surface without rolling. The whole "unbalanced" thing becomes irrelevant then, if it wasn't already.
Yeah, but I don't want to slap down dice like an idiot. :D Drinks, minis, etc. Not good.
Instead I'll just use dice I know aren't as fucked. ;)
Just putting them down is acceptable as well or whatever English word is more appropriate here. The important thing is you don't need to roll them across the table like an idiot. ;)
Quote from: 3rik;899894Just putting them down is acceptable as well or whatever English word is more appropriate here. The important thing is you don't need to roll them across the table like an idiot. ;)
The precision dice stop right where you want them, they don't roll across the table to begin with. Another problem solved. :D
Quote from: CRKrueger;899900The precision dice stop right where you want them, they don't roll across the table to begin with. Another problem solved. :D
Some people will want them to roll anyway because they think that will lead to a more (fairly) randomized result, and insist on throwing them harder. ;)
My thoughts on "The Dark Eye":
I am from Germany and it's the P&P RPG which is definately played the most here. Is it good?
Well... I played played 3rd and 4th edition for the most part and 4th edition was really, really complex. It gives you all kind of opportunities to roleplay a balanced character. I think that in toal you can choose from over 1000 characterclasses and race combination. I am actually not kidding. Character creation is really something that takes some time, still the game mechanics are easys once you are done with that.
The biggest plus (or surplus) that comes with The Dark Eye are the campaigns. Those are really thrilling and they come with tons of source material - if you want.
There are campaigns which come with their own fanpages and DLCs: [URL="http://www.borbarad-projekt.de/"[/URL]
I havn't played D&D so far but from what I know I tends to focus on combat. The Dark Eye however really centers around the world and involves more roleplay interaction and is not really about cleaning up a dungeon.
If 5th editions comes with the right campaigns e.g. Bloody Sea, the Borbarad Campaign, Dust and Stars, The Phileasson campaign and Year of the Griffin it is a MUST BUY!
;)
I see an obvious "faith in the system" present, even when it comes to dice... Trust an American, if there's a way to cheat, we already knew about it and calculated the odds for it. We probably have youtube videos already teaching the skill to others.
"Just slap it down in your hand without moving"... Yeah, like palming tricks aren't already known. *snort* If you passed unphased by the little "saltwater test" comment, let alone unaware of the knowledge how to microwave your dice into becoming fixed (but otherwise passable to the naked eye), then you have no expectation about the lengths some people will go.
If you want heart clutching terror, check out the lengths Magic the Gathering professional tournaments go in every stage of play to minimize statistical manipulation -- and then check how they still had scandals of pro-cheating. The art of cheating is to make it look passable.
That said, novelty dice are just concert t-shirts of the gaming world. Outside of street cred and trips down memory lane, they're not for any 'real work'.
:p
Quote from: MES;901061My thoughts on "The Dark Eye":
I am from Germany and it's the P&P RPG which is definately played the most here. Is it good?
Well... I played played 3rd and 4th edition for the most part and 4th edition was really, really complex. It gives you all kind of opportunities to roleplay a balanced character. I think that in toal you can choose from over 1000 characterclasses and race combination. I am actually not kidding. Character creation is really something that takes some time, still the game mechanics are easys once you are done with that.
The biggest plus (or surplus) that comes with The Dark Eye are the campaigns. Those are really thrilling and they come with tons of source material - if you want.
There are campaigns which come with their own fanpages and DLCs: [URL="http://www.borbarad-projekt.de/"[/URL]
I havn't played D&D so far but from what I know I tends to focus on combat. The Dark Eye however really centers around the world and involves more roleplay interaction and is not really about cleaning up a dungeon.
If 5th editions comes with the right campaigns e.g. Bloody Sea, the Borbarad Campaign, Dust and Stars, The Phileasson campaign and Year of the Griffin it is a MUST BUY!
;)
I've heard from certain other Germans that Dark Eye is a railroady game that focuses on pretentious 'roleplay not rollplay' type gaming.
so you've heard, but not actually played.
Quote from: RPGPundit;901283I've heard from certain other Germans that Dark Eye is a railroady game that focuses on pretentious 'roleplay not rollplay' type gaming.
And it still is. MES here sounds like a run of the mill fanboi: railroady wackness incarnate. Look for his remark on D&D= combat and TDE = proper roleplaying.
But of course, I HOPE there will be an english edition of all these modules, so finally the true evil of the TDE modules will be revealed to all the world.
And in his own MES-like teuto-logic, I am the most reliable source as I have played BOTH TDE as well as D&D in all editions (except the fifth of both).
Quote from: Settembrini;901340And it still is. MES here sounds like a run of the mill fanboi: railroady wackness incarnate. Look for his remark on D&D= combat and TDE = proper roleplaying.
But of course, I HOPE there will be an english edition of all these modules, so finally the true evil of the TDE modules will be revealed to all the world.
And in his own MES-like teuto-logic, I am the most reliable source as I have played BOTH TDE as well as D&D in all editions (except the fifth of both).
Why do you get so super offended and condescending over giving my opinion about TDE adventures?
TDE is not my favoured system at all - still I played enough campaigns to know that they are anything but railroaded.
Last campaign my group played for instance was "Blutige See" which was anything but railroad, but a sandbox with high replay value due to the open scenario and if you still believe that they are railroaded you simply havn't played enough to know. Period.
https://youtu.be/L4d7CvIjNDM?t=7m58s (https://youtu.be/L4d7CvIjNDM?t=7m58s)
yah very few games are them selves railroads its the gm or group as a whole that is the railroad
but where in a system dos it say you have to fallow an adventure exactly i have yet to see it
Quote from: kosmos1214;901405yah very few games are them selves railroads its the gm or group as a whole that is the railroad
but where in a system dos it say you have to fallow an adventure exactly i have yet to see it
The fans I encountered all thought of the railroady style implied in TDA as the one true way of playing with a lot acting condescending with regard to other games. They also thought of TDA as the most professionally produced game evarrr.
I'm not saying it cannot be played in any other way, nor that it is complete crap, but there was definitely an above-average level of smugness and pretentiousness going on.
Quote from: 3rik;901409The fans I encountered all thought of the railroady style implied in TDA as the one true way of playing with a lot acting condescending with regard to other games. They also thought of TDA as the most professionally produced game evarrr.
I'm not saying it cannot be played in any other way, nor that it is complete crap, but there was definitely an above-average level of smugness and pretentiousness going on.
like with dnd,gurps,battletech,traveler,pathfinder and runequest:P*
*i have personally met people from each of those games with that attitude multiple times
Quote from: kosmos1214;901426like with dnd,gurps,battletech,traveler,pathfinder and runequest:P*
*i have personally met people from each of those games with that attitude multiple times
I haven't, only World of Darkness and Forge stuff, but even they weren't particularly fond of railroading. Heck, I've seen TDA afficionados claim that running your own TDA adventures that aren't prefab is destined to fail. Also, the idea of changing anything about the cannon/timeline just did not compute with these types; like it wasn't even an option. Ditto having your character refuse to take part in some battle in a scenario.
Quote from: 3rik;901427I haven't, only World of Darkness and Forge stuff.
lucky you battletech can be especially bad if you try and bend on lore
Quote from: kosmos1214;901428lucky you battletech can be especially bad if you try and bend on lore
I don't think I have never had a conversation with anyone who actually was into battletech, not even the RPG.
Quote from: 3rik;901429I don't think I have never had a conversation with anyone who actually was into battletech, not even the RPG.
ah ok well now you have ill be honest some of the fan base can be real pricks about lore if you use the wrong brand name for a laser some one is going to catch it and rib you on it.
now of coarse there are some super cool guys there to like with any fan base i suppose it has its cool guys and ass holes.
I'm with Kosmos on this one, in the past 30+ years of gaming, I've heard EVERY system is 'railroady' or is full of pretentious people.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;901464I'm with Kosmos on this one, in the past 30+ years of gaming, I've heard EVERY system is 'railroady' or is full of pretentious people.
What I am talking about is fans
defending the railroadiness of their favourite game, claiming that non-railroady adventuring is non-viable. They actually consider the "wanderfogel style" Settembrini has described in a thread about TDA player culture a viable way of "roleplaying" when it's really just sitting back and observing metaplot events take place and trademark NPCs handle all the necessary cool stuff.
There's obviously always cool guys and assholes among fans of any game. That's not what we're talking about.
The hooggeleerde 3rik has won this thread just by virtue of his El Santo Avatar.
Quote from: Settembrini;901866The hooggeleerde 3rik has won this thread just by virtue of his El Santo Avatar.
Off-topic: The cool thing about El Santo, and many other of the Mexican "wrestlers as superheroes", is that hese superheroes actually existed.
Anyway, my experiences engaging with TDA afficionados were mainly with players not from Germany, and it was quite a few years ago. Also, I'd like to point out that most of them were perfectly decent people, not assholes. It's just that they seemed almost brainwashed in their rigid devotion to The DSA Way of playing. I'm not exactly following current developments in the German RPG scene. Would you say the player culture or mentality, especially of TDA fans, has changed over the years?
Quote from: 3rik;901872I'm not exactly following current developments in the German RPG scene. Would you say the player culture or mentality, especially of TDA fans, has changed over the years?
Hard to say, I am a bit out of the loop myself. But everytime I meet a TDE afficcionado, they fail to suprise me.
Some days ago someone went on and on about how awesome his old TDE group was. The part he liked best was playing in the tavern for four hours and, with a shining glimmer in his eye: "We described and puzzled in loving detailed (for hours) how to splice strands so we could create a rope JUST FROM NATURE'S GIFTS IN THE WILDERNESS."
Real talk.
Quote from: Settembrini;901918Hard to say, I am a bit out of the loop myself. But everytime I meet a TDE afficcionado, they fail to suprise me.
Some days ago someone went on and on about how awesome his old TDE group was. The part he liked best was playing in the tavern for four hours and, with a shining glimmer in his eye: "We described and puzzled in loving detailed (for hours) how to splice strands so we could create a rope JUST FROM NATURE'S GIFTS IN THE WILDERNESS."
Real talk.
That's even taking it to a whole other level, lol. This was in Germany? Because I've only talked to fans of the game from Belgium and the Netherlands. A number of them enjoyed the highly detailed setting but acknowledged the extreme tendency towards railroading in published adventures as something they weren't always enamoured with. A small number even decided to make changes to the canon of the setting. To the more fanatic this was all anathema. Again, none of these people were in any way unfriendly assholes. It was just an attitude towards roleplaying that came with the game's player culture. And since these people weren't part of the German gamer community, they must have gotten it from the gaming books themselves, which at the time weren't available in Dutch or English so they had to make do with the German version.
I belief my GM and co-player Vonn, who also hangs out at these forums, has first-hand experience with the game and its player culture so he might want to join in on this thread to add some more nuance.
Quote from: 3rik;901922That's even taking it to a whole other level, lol. This was in Germany? Because I've only talked to fans of the game from Belgium and the Netherlands. A number of them enjoyed the highly detailed setting but acknowledged the extreme tendency towards railroading in published adventures as something they weren't always enamoured with. A small number even decided to make changes to the canon of the setting. To the more fanatic this was all anathema. Again, none of these people were in any way unfriendly assholes. It was just an attitude towards roleplaying that came with the game's player culture. And since these people weren't part of the German gamer community, they must have gotten it from the gaming books themselves, which at the time weren't available in Dutch or English so they had to make do with the German version.
I belief my GM and co-player Vonn, who also hangs out at these forums, has first-hand experience with the game and its player culture so he might want to join in on this thread to add some more nuance.
would be interesting to be honest i have interest in it not for the set but the system and some of its back round elements if i ran it id all most certainly run a original setting
Quote from: kosmos1214;901943would be interesting to be honest i have interest in it not for the set but the system and some of its back round elements if i ran it id all most certainly run a original setting
In 30 years I never found one GM that ran TDE in a world of his own design. Not even when I operated a game store and saw many, many
Meisters, and discussed with quite a few of them.
The closest would be probably the bunch that developed Aventuria beyond the (natural) Eastern border, an invincible mountain range. Or the groups that sent their heroes to the mythical Western continent (that turned out to be radically different when it was eventually published officially). So "new" settings were still well within the Aventurian context.
All of which hindered a DIY spirit like the one that surrounded (A)D&D (pre-FR, that is).
(Warhammer FRP and The Empire are similarly intertwined as TDE and Aventuria.)
The Dark Eye is the most played system in Germany and it's definately a German kind of game as in it's very detailed.
As some have already mentioned there are sessions (as I have experienced) with little to no encounters or progress storywise. The system features a lot of skills and spells which got no purpose other than creating a certain atmosphere. For instance: There is a spell which cleans a player and his clothes for the cost of a phew mana points. I can hardly imagine a situation in which you might be in need of such a spell storywise – but it might be nice to have and creates a certain atmosphere at the table if you want. The system also allows you to play characters who suck at combat and still can play a broad variety of campaigns due to the variety of skills the system offers. It really depends on the group the way you play the game. You don't have to play without combat and/or encounters, but the system offers the option.
Then there is the so called "metaplot". When a TDE player refers to so called "metagaming" he most likely means knowledge of something NSCs do or did. Again: You don't have to like this kind of thing, but it creates this TDE kind of atmosphere.
At the moment I am flipping through "The One Ring" rulebook in the evening and I asked myself if its rules could be adopted to another setting. Well... yeah... they could but they seem to be made for the world of middle earth and the same goes for TDE - I think.
I'll give you some example campaings for the uniqueness of the system which you might like or not.
One is "Bloody Sea" the other is "The Assasins".
Bloody Sea as I mentioned in another post is a very open sand box-like scenario, which can be played both as a "good/lawful" group and as more "morally flexible" or "neutral" oriented characters. In both cases the players are on a ship: Either on the "Sea hawk of Beilunk" or the "Tide Spider" (a demonic possessed ship – which also possesses the players more and more). The players are absolutely free to do whatever they want as long as they want until the final encounter which ends the campaign. What I liked about the setting the most is that players really struggle with being on the "Tide Spider". It's somewhat like being in possession of the "One Ring to rule them all". You could do some much good with this ship, use it as a weapon and strike the evil demon forces back, right? The "ship's" power (actually the ship is not so much a ship but rather a demon itself) really puts players into a tough spot. The constant conflict might corrupt them. Our group for instance sacrificed some prisoners of a sacked city to the ship in order to gain some benefits from it in the hour of need. That was not an easy thing to do and led to a lot of controversy at the table - but it worked in terms winning a fight. After all the end justifies the means, right? ;)
So the scenario constantly puts you in a spot, in which you have to decide if you really want to fight fire with fire, as in summoning demons in order to fight other demons. All in all: Great campaign – I loved it.
This campaign stands for the uniqueness of the systems as is provides a variety of events which defintately require TDE rules and guidebooks. For instance: It's better if you know how to deal with black magic and the game mechanis behind it. Knowing how to cut a deal with demons might also come in handy. That does not mean that the whole scenario could not be adopted and used in a different setting (like a D&D world). Things can be fixed like that.
The other scenario "The Assassins" is railroading and metaplot at its finest – but I liked it, too.
At the start of the campaign a spell is put on the players which forces them to kill the emperor of the realm. So they stop whatever they were about to do and go for the emperor, who according to the metaplot mysteriously disappears at the end of the campaign. Officially he never returned from a hunting trip, but only the players are among a few who know what actually happened.
The campaign is obviously railroaded and is all about the metaplot, still it was a thrilling thing to play as I was really excited to find out what happens at the end. Plus it was really fun to figure out a plan when and where to make a hit on the emperor. Plus, in this scenario you really don't have use combat at all, to succeed in the campaign. You can "roleplay" through the whole thing (which does not imply that a different style of playing cannot be considered "roleplay"),as in you can succeed in this campaign without fighting.
So... yes there are railroaded adventures (the early ones in particular, I'll give you that), but it does not mean that all of them are and it's just wrong to say that TDE automatically comes with railroaded metaplot scenarios.
Something that TDE definately not stands for, however is dungeoncrawling hack & slay adventures.
What I personally don't like about the syystem is the amounts of rules and extra rules and exceptions from extra rules... When our group plays TDE I always need 4 sheeds for one character (1 Attribute Sheet, 2 Skill Sheets, 1 Combat Sheet). The system is definately flawed in that point, but it sill allows a great variety of playing options and does not stick to one setting or way of playing. There are "Conan the Barbarian"-like areas, swashbuckling pirate areas, Cthulu-Frankenstein-horror settings and so forth - all in the same world of Aventuria. It's definately not my favourite system, but in my opinion it's a flexible system, thus a lot of people play it, because it offers something for everyone. It's a mixed bag so to speak and it is up to you what what to make of it.
TDE adventure-modules were often VERY railroady in the first 2-3 editions. Especially since the 4th there have been more and more open and sandbox-style adventures. Many of them have been fan-favourites. They're never pure sandboxes, mind. They usually have vaguely defined start- and endpoints (and sometimes middle-points), with modular, often entirely optional encounters and events in between.
Herren von Chorhop, Königsmacher, Blutige See...
Oh and I've not played in years, but the last group I played with did play official modules, but also shit we made up ourselves (but we DID always more or less adhere to the official metaplot). I still remember that horse-like sex demon...
Concerning the official metaplot: since the scope of the game is less on epic adventures, but more on solving smaller problems, it's not actually that difficult to not get into conflict with the official metaplot, unless you have one of these guys, you know the type... "but there IS NO library in the city we're in!"
Now if you wanted to kill the king, that's a different story.
A few more thoughts:
The detailed metaplot that has been developed for 30 years, and the detailed and rich (often cliché) world that comes with it is kind of the whole point of the setting - and the system!
Time passes in Aventuria like it passes in the real world (it passed quicker in early years, 2 ingame years per real year), and there's also been a printed ingame newspaper for 30 years (over 40 ingame years) now, telling the playerbase what happened on the continent. So yeah, metaplot is important for this game.
This, and that you play "heroes" instead of "characters", is why the game lends itself to railroading. This doesn't neccesarily mean the characters can't be the one's who kill the great evil sorceror, it's just that if they don't (and instead say ally with him), then you can't present them with the ingame sources saying the great evil dude has been "killed by the heroes of yada yada"! And in subsequent adventure-modules, you may have to rewrite all of it, because the decisions of the players have now changed the whole setting, away from the official metaplot.
Now the ingame sources (the herold, the regional source books, etc.) don't name the characters in the circumstances where they can make a difference, they'll just say "a group of heroes did this and that". Still, the heroes CAN sometimes do this and that, and don't always have to just spectate while an important and cool NPC does it.
In the end, it al depends on the group and the GM. If you don't have a problem bending the metaplot, then go ahead. In fact earlier versions of the game always explicitely stated, in every publication, that you should change everything you don't like - that it's your game to do with as you please.
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;902015In 30 years I never found one GM that ran TDE in a world of his own design. Not even when I operated a game store and saw many, many Meisters, and discussed with quite a few of them.
The closest would be probably the bunch that developed Aventuria beyond the (natural) Eastern border, an invincible mountain range. Or the groups that sent their heroes to the mythical Western continent (that turned out to be radically different when it was eventually published officially). So "new" settings were still well within the Aventurian context.
All of which hindered a DIY spirit like the one that surrounded (A)D&D (pre-FR, that is).
(Warhammer FRP and The Empire are similarly intertwined as TDE and Aventuria.)
interesting though it wouldnt be the 1st time iv consiterd doing some thing like this
Quote from: MES;902039The Dark Eye is the most played system in Germany and it's definately a German kind of game as in it's very detailed.
As some have already mentioned there are sessions (as I have experienced) with little to no encounters or progress storywise. The system features a lot of skills and spells which got no purpose other than creating a certain atmosphere. For instance: There is a spell which cleans a player and his clothes for the cost of a phew mana points. I can hardly imagine a situation in which you might be in need of such a spell storywise – but it might be nice to have and creates a certain atmosphere at the table if you want. The system also allows you to play characters who suck at combat and still can play a broad variety of campaigns due to the variety of skills the system offers. It really depends on the group the way you play the game. You don't have to play without combat and/or encounters, but the system offers the option.
Then there is the so called "metaplot". When a TDE player refers to so called "metagaming" he most likely means knowledge of something NSCs do or did. Again: You don't have to like this kind of thing, but it creates this TDE kind of atmosphere.
At the moment I am flipping through "The One Ring" rulebook in the evening and I asked myself if its rules could be adopted to another setting. Well... yeah... they could but they seem to be made for the world of middle earth and the same goes for TDE - I think.
I'll give you some example campaings for the uniqueness of the system which you might like or not.
One is "Bloody Sea" the other is "The Assasins".
Bloody Sea as I mentioned in another post is a very open sand box-like scenario, which can be played both as a "good/lawful" group and as more "morally flexible" or "neutral" oriented characters. In both cases the players are on a ship: Either on the "Sea hawk of Beilunk" or the "Tide Spider" (a demonic possessed ship – which also possesses the players more and more). The players are absolutely free to do whatever they want as long as they want until the final encounter which ends the campaign. What I liked about the setting the most is that players really struggle with being on the "Tide Spider". It's somewhat like being in possession of the "One Ring to rule them all". You could do some much good with this ship, use it as a weapon and strike the evil demon forces back, right? The "ship's" power (actually the ship is not so much a ship but rather a demon itself) really puts players into a tough spot. The constant conflict might corrupt them. Our group for instance sacrificed some prisoners of a sacked city to the ship in order to gain some benefits from it in the hour of need. That was not an easy thing to do and led to a lot of controversy at the table - but it worked in terms winning a fight. After all the end justifies the means, right? ;)
So the scenario constantly puts you in a spot, in which you have to decide if you really want to fight fire with fire, as in summoning demons in order to fight other demons. All in all: Great campaign – I loved it.
This campaign stands for the uniqueness of the systems as is provides a variety of events which defintately require TDE rules and guidebooks. For instance: It's better if you know how to deal with black magic and the game mechanis behind it. Knowing how to cut a deal with demons might also come in handy. That does not mean that the whole scenario could not be adopted and used in a different setting (like a D&D world). Things can be fixed like that.
The other scenario "The Assassins" is railroading and metaplot at its finest – but I liked it, too.
At the start of the campaign a spell is put on the players which forces them to kill the emperor of the realm. So they stop whatever they were about to do and go for the emperor, who according to the metaplot mysteriously disappears at the end of the campaign. Officially he never returned from a hunting trip, but only the players are among a few who know what actually happened.
The campaign is obviously railroaded and is all about the metaplot, still it was a thrilling thing to play as I was really excited to find out what happens at the end. Plus it was really fun to figure out a plan when and where to make a hit on the emperor. Plus, in this scenario you really don't have use combat at all, to succeed in the campaign. You can "roleplay" through the whole thing (which does not imply that a different style of playing cannot be considered "roleplay"),as in you can succeed in this campaign without fighting.
So... yes there are railroaded adventures (the early ones in particular, I'll give you that), but it does not mean that all of them are and it's just wrong to say that TDE automatically comes with railroaded metaplot scenarios.
Something that TDE definately not stands for, however is dungeoncrawling hack & slay adventures.
What I personally don't like about the syystem is the amounts of rules and extra rules and exceptions from extra rules... When our group plays TDE I always need 4 sheeds for one character (1 Attribute Sheet, 2 Skill Sheets, 1 Combat Sheet). The system is definately flawed in that point, but it sill allows a great variety of playing options and does not stick to one setting or way of playing. There are "Conan the Barbarian"-like areas, swashbuckling pirate areas, Cthulu-Frankenstein-horror settings and so forth - all in the same world of Aventuria. It's definately not my favourite system, but in my opinion it's a flexible system, thus a lot of people play it, because it offers something for everyone. It's a mixed bag so to speak and it is up to you what what to make of it.
sounds like the worldis a lot like if you took all the published dnd setings and put them in different parts of the same setting
Quote from: kosmos1214;902182sounds like the worldis a lot like if you took all the published dnd setings and put them in different parts of the same setting
Aventuria is one of those typical kitchen sink settings such as Forgotten Realms, Golarion, Midgard/Magira, Shadow World, or Legend that we see in many mainstream games.
The tech level (more Renaissance than middle ages) and the "flair" is quite unique, though, and probably the most interesting aspect for foreign gamers.
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;902302Aventuria is one of those typical kitchen sink settings such as Forgotten Realms, Golarion, Midgard/Magira, Shadow World, or Legend that we see in many mainstream games.
The tech level (more Renaissance than middle ages) and the "flair" is quite unique, though, and probably the most interesting aspect for foreign gamers.
interesting thanks
Quote from: Settembrini;901918Hard to say, I am a bit out of the loop myself. But everytime I meet a TDE afficcionado, they fail to suprise me.
Speaking as a guy who is both 'in the loop' and not a fan of the traditional DSA school of play. In the last 5 or so years there has been an ongoing struggle between the Wanderfogel types and the normal* players over how to play DSA. The most public face of this is the forum/youtube channel Orkenspalter. The 2 faces of Orkenspalter are Prof. Dr. Dr. Dr. Heinz Featherly, a plush owl who is portrayed as what therpgpundit would be like if he was a Wanderfogel afficionado and real human spokeswoman Mháire Stritter, who could not be less of a Wanderfogel afficionado, plush owl, or therpgpundit if she tried.
*For lack of a better word.
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;902302Aventuria is one of those typical kitchen sink settings such as Forgotten Realms, Golarion, Midgard/Magira, Shadow World, or Legend that we see in many mainstream games.
The tech level (more Renaissance than middle ages) and the "flair" is quite unique, though, and probably the most interesting aspect for foreign gamers.
If i had to sell the setting for a living. I would say that it has a nice combination of being both deep and accessible. You want to play a viking* and read only 1 page of background? Easy. You want to play a viking and read 100 pages of background? Also Easy.
It also stresses a certain sanitized realism that evokes the sort of history lessons you probably had in elementary school. This makes suspension of disbelieve very easy for a lot of people.
*Or a pirate, or a knight, or a faery tale witch, or a Gandalf like wizard etc.