TheRPGSite

Excerpt from the Palladium Weekly Newsletter

QuoteThe Rifts® for Savage Worlds® demo game was a night of fun gaming. Sean Patrick Fannon (G.M.) is an Erick Wujcik-style gaming maniac who games, games, and games till he drops. So Friday night, Sean invited Wayne, Chuck and me along with a couple other gents to play Rifts® for Savage Worlds. The game ran till 1:15 AM and was a lot of fun. Wayne played a rapidly burning out Juicer in Last Call, Chuck a Combat Cyborg with a dangerous past, Jake played a heroic Cyber-Knight, Joe a Glitter Boy (I believe this was his first time playing Rifts® or Savage Worlds®), and I played a cocky Mind Melter. Long story short, Jake and I came up with a plan that surprised our Game Master, Sean, and it worked out really well... until my character was about to die.

Since my Mind Melter character was supposed to be cocky, I pressed him to the max. I came up with an excellent scheme to quickly take down half the enemy forces. It was a great plan — if it had worked.

Instead, my target for mind control saved. Twice. The Mind Melter was down to 2 I.S.P. and was about to be killed by my intended victim, a big brute of a monster. I’m sure my Cyber-Knight companion would have tried to intervene to save me, but the odds of succeeding were slim and none. Then, suddenly, my opponent’s head exploded and he toppled to the ground! Wayne’s Juicer saved the Mind Melter with a long-range attack and rolled a critical hit to the head. I’m saved in the nick of time, and in dramatic fashion. Thanks again, Wayne! Joe’s Glitter Boy and Chuck’s Combat Cyborg kicked butt, big time, and we enjoyed victory and a raucous good time. Btw, this is the intro adventure that comes in the Rifts® Savage Worlds game, and it plays out very nicely.

As a game designer and dedicated Game Master, I seldom game as a player. I am always the guy running the games. Honestly, I prefer being the G.M. as I tend to get bored as a player. And when I get bored, I become the player who thinks of things for his character to do that can shake the game up or take it in directions the G.M. wasn’t expecting. Yeah, I’m that guy.

Anyway, Sean and I were heading up to our rooms in the elevator when it struck me that this was the first time I had ever been a player in a Rifts® game. Crazy, right? Sean freaked out and was thrilled to have had me as a player in the game and to be the first G.M. to run a Rifts® game for me. There had been other offers at conventions and the Palladium Open House over the years, but I was always too tired to accept those kind invitations. So after 25 years of writing and running Rifts® games, this was my first time playing in Rifts®. I guess that was a milestone of sorts.

Heck, in 30+ years, I think I have only been a player in Palladium Fantasy®, Heroes Unlimited and Robotech® RPG, maybe a half a dozen times each. (RRT is the exception, where I’ve mostly been a player.) I’m not complaining at all. I LOVE being the G.M. It is one of my passions. Of course, I was hardly a first time player, and knowing Rifts® (and my other RPGs) inside and out, it is always difficult for me to keep my mouth shut, play in character and let the other players (and sometimes the G.M.) do their thing without offering suggestions or taking the lead. Whenever I play, I always try to put my character in the background and let the other players take the lead. It is the only thing that seems fair.

I found this fascinating, because in all the playtesting I've done, I don't think I've seen the "Author as Player" - definitely lots and lots of Author as GM and Author as Watcher, but having the Author playing is a really interesting idea.  Its the standard with boardgames, but I've never seen it with RPGs, or even heard of it before.

For those of you who have authored RPGs, have you ever played in your own game?

What was that like?

I have both played in a playtest of my rules, and GMed the author in a playtest. It is an experience I can really recommend. When you have fun with your own ruleset, it is doubled: not only do you enjoy yourself, but then you get to think: "Hey, I managed to write rules that produce fun at the table!"

An experience which is hard to beat.

Same here. I've played and GMed my own game way back. With RPGs though the creator tends to be the GM alot especially during playtesting since they are the one who knows the system and can settle into the role probably easiest. And its a good vantage point to see how the players handle and learn the game.

But great if you can rope someone into GMing your own game.

I have found playing them myself to be essential for writing good solitaire adventures, and making sure that they actually work the way I intended. I have caught a lot of errors by actually playing, not just reading or relying on knowing what is in there because I wrote it.

For those of you who played in your own game, how was the experience at the table? Especially for the GM? Did the GM get any of the rules wrong and need you to clarify? Did you just let a misunderstanding or confusion work out on its own?

I've mostly GMed my games but at times my players have taken over the reigns and run the games for me. It's usually in these occasions where I pull out all the little system doodads and tricks and spring them on the GM. I do wait until they've settled in and are not struggling anymore. I'm not just being a jerk, this is my way of giving the players the knowhow to play the game with all the special tricks that I build into the system but don't have the space to explain (without being boring). Anything I do, the other players should also be able to do.

As far as the GM's experience, it really depends on the GM. I've had quite a few people run my games so I can only talk it broad categories unless I wanted to write for an hour. I've had GMs that are very nervous about getting things right and some that are already very familiar with the system from years of playing. I usually start by telling them that they have the reigns and I'll submit to any rulings they make, even if it's not that way in the book. In a lot of cases they'll ask me if they're reading a rule correctly. In some cases they've opened up how we play a rule by looking at it a different way than I did writing it.

That said, I've been told that I think differently than most people (I am autistic which could explain a lot). My one friend says that I approach things sideways. This also applies to my being a player. What seems logical to me has really thrown some GMs for loops. I don't think that's outside of a player's list of responsibilities though. Players are going to throw monkey wrenches, I just throw them sideways apparently.

Quote from: Spinachcat;921174For those of you who have authored RPGs, have you ever played in your own game?

Whatever game we're talking about, it's always hard for me to be a player. It's just that not many people are willing and able to organise a game group. So I step on up and make it happen, and voila I'm the GM. Much more often than not, if I don't GM, no game.

That said, I did play one time with my friend Aron running the game. We were our modern selves transported to France about 790 as the Arabs were invading. It was good fun, and I feel those were the best and most realistic rules I've written, but they were quite qualitative rather than quantitative so they required a lot of GM judgment and wouldn't be popular.

Great read. Thanks for posting the article. I'm glad someone had to save him in the game also.

Quote from: Spinachcat;921174For those of you who have authored RPGs, have you ever played in your own game?

What was that like?

Recently I was able to play in a game of Metahumans Rising. We did 7 episodes for the podcast (http://housedok.com/category/actual-plays/out-of-time/). It was a nice break from running games. It was also fun to make the GM suffer through what may have been an unruly character concept, being everywhere and nowhere.

My reactions:

1. It must be really cool to run a game for its creator, especially when the game is Rifts and the author is Kevin Siembieda.

2. HOLY SHITSNACKS KEV HOW CAN NEVER HAVE PLAYED YOUR COMPANY'S 25-YEAR-OLD FLAGSHIP FUCKING PROPERTY

3. It should be part of the playtest process, really, the designer playing his own game.

Quote from: Spinachcat;921174Excerpt from the Palladium Weekly Newsletter



I found this fascinating, because in all the playtesting I've done, I don't think I've seen the "Author as Player" - definitely lots and lots of Author as GM and Author as Watcher, but having the Author playing is a really interesting idea.  Its the standard with boardgames, but I've never seen it with RPGs, or even heard of it before.

For those of you who have authored RPGs, have you ever played in your own game?

What was that like?

I have run games for the authors of two different RPG systems, one of them as part of playtesting. It seems to be something people have been doing since the 70ies, but I wasn't born back then.
To me, it has an added cool factor, but the essential thing is to threat the author as any other player. He might or might not be the one who knows the rules best, but the rule on my table is always to defer to whoever knows the rules best.
Usually, however, that was the author anyway, so there have been zero rules conflicts.

What I found fascinating about the post the OP quoted, however, was the following paragraph:).
"Honestly, I prefer being the G.M. as I tend to get bored as a player. And when I get bored, I become the player who thinks of things for his character to do that can shake the game up or take it in directions the G.M. wasn’t expecting. Yeah, I’m that guy."
So, "shaking the game up or taking it in directions the GM wasn't expecting" makes you "That Guy" in Kevin's games? He definitely has some different priorities;)!

Quote from: Spinachcat;921243For those of you who played in your own game, how was the experience at the table?

Especially for the GM?

Did the GM get any of the rules wrong and need you to clarify? Did you just let a misunderstanding or confusion work out on its own?

1: Fun. Both to just get to play and not GM, and to see how others ran the game. I've mentioned before that one GM stripped off all the parody elements to run a straight up Hyborian Age campaign.

2: GMs seemed to enjoy it. Oft for wildly different reasons.

3: Thats the whole point during playtesting. To see what mistakes or odd interpretations happen and how they effect play. Outside playtest it depends on the situation. Sometimes what looks like a rules mistake is just a houserule. I treat it like any other player would and point out goofs if noticed or ask for clarification if unsure.

Quote from: Omega;9214703: Thats the whole point during playtesting. To see what mistakes or odd interpretations happen and how they effect play. Outside playtest it depends on the situation. Sometimes what looks like a rules mistake is just a houserule. I treat it like any other player would and point out goofs if noticed or ask for clarification if unsure.

Absolutely this. If a GM doesn't know about a rule, it's either not prominent enough or not important enough. This is a great way of knowing if your rules are superfluous.

If the GM misuses, misunderstands or just doesn't get how a rule works, it's time for a rewrite.

My favorite tactic in playtesting is to set up a voice recorder in the room get a fresh GM that's never played the system (with to chance to prep before hand of course) and leave. That way I don't influence the experience at all, except for what I've recorded in the book, the way it should be.

Quote from: Onix;921475If the GM misuses, misunderstands or just doesn't get how a rule works, it's time for a rewrite.

Unfortunately this doesnt work as well as weld like. I've run into way too many players and DMs who no matter how well you word something will willfully misinterpret and twist rules. Sometimes it seems soley for the excuse to bitch about how broken the game in question is.

Instead I ask why they did this, or why they read the rule that way first and then look at wether or not the rule needs more clarification or tighter wording. Its impossible to idiot proof against a determined idiot so dont wast too much effort. That can lead to rules bloat as you try to hammer down wording.

Quote from: Omega;921549Unfortunately this doesnt work as well as weld like. I've run into way too many players and DMs who no matter how well you word something will willfully misinterpret and twist rules. Sometimes it seems soley for the excuse to bitch about how broken the game in question is.

Instead I ask why they did this, or why they read the rule that way first and then look at wether or not the rule needs more clarification or tighter wording. Its impossible to idiot proof against a determined idiot so dont wast too much effort. That can lead to rules bloat as you try to hammer down wording.

Fortunately I trust my playtesters. I have had players like that in the past, but I don't have them come around again. I've always been well acquainted with my playtesters before handing them something new to run. One of these players might run a character in a playtest, but the GM can usually sniff out the bad attitude and ignore their rules interpretations.

Quote from: Onix;921621Fortunately I trust my playtesters. I have had players like that in the past, but I don't have them come around again. I've always been well acquainted with my playtesters before handing them something new to run. One of these players might run a character in a playtest, but the GM can usually sniff out the bad attitude and ignore their rules interpretations.

If you trust and know your playtesters... Then you have the wrong playtesters.

The only way to see how the game really plays is to drop it into the hands of total strangers and see what they do with it. One of the first rules of playtesting is "Do not use friends or family." aside from the basics of rooting some problems. Its not untill the game is in the hands of people you dont know that the real "fun" starts. (fun meaning nightmare in this case.)

Technically he only played Rifts® Savage Worlds® and not Rifts® Palladium System®.

This does explain why the house system has the problems it does however.

Quote from: Omega;921735If you trust and know your playtesters... Then you have the wrong playtesters.

The only way to see how the game really plays is to drop it into the hands of total strangers and see what they do with it. One of the first rules of playtesting is "Do not use friends or family." aside from the basics of rooting some problems. Its not untill the game is in the hands of people you dont know that the real "fun" starts. (fun meaning nightmare in this case.)

I disagree with that, especially at first. I understand the utility of having someone without any background in how I think playtest, but it's overblown. In addition I have a few amnesiac players that can't remember the rules from one session to another so it's basically like they're new every time! Ok just kidding.

By the rationale of having total strangers playtest, you should have only people that have never role played in their lives run your game. I think we'd all agree that, unless your making a game that is specifically intended to bring new players into the hobby that would be unnecessary.

Quote from: The Butcher;9213022. HOLY SHITSNACKS KEV HOW CAN NEVER HAVE PLAYED YOUR COMPANY'S 25-YEAR-OLD FLAGSHIP FUCKING PROPERTY

3. It should be part of the playtest process, really, the designer playing his own game.

I'm pretty sure he meant outside of playtesting. Just kicking back and letting oneself be GMed. I know it would fit into a lot of people's "RIFTS seems so cool but the rules are a mess" line, but I'm pretty sure KS does plenty of playtesting.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;921831I'm pretty sure he meant outside of playtesting. Just kicking back and letting oneself be GMed. I know it would fit into a lot of people's "RIFTS seems so cool but the rules are a mess" line, but I'm pretty sure KS does plenty of playtesting.

This is Siembieda we're talking about here.

Now, this is just speculation on my part, but I would not be surprised to find out he runs a very narrative, almost diceless type of game, and the rulebooks we get are essentially a collection of his post-game rationalizations.

...

Has anyone seen Siembieda run a game, like at a convention or whatnot?

Quote from: Ratman_tf;921848This is Siembieda we're talking about here.

Now, this is just speculation on my part, but I would not be surprised to find out he runs a very narrative, almost diceless type of game, and the rulebooks we get are essentially a collection of his post-game rationalizations.

...

Has anyone seen Siembieda run a game, like at a convention or whatnot?

I've read a few times online that his games are more free wheeling and that most of his rolls were handled by percentile dice.  Going by hazy memory, I seem to recall that he used stats more as guidelines for what things could do and went from there.

Quote from: The Butcher;921302My reactions:

1. It must be really cool to run a game for its creator, especially when the game is Rifts and the author is Kevin Siembieda.

2. HOLY SHITSNACKS KEV HOW CAN NEVER HAVE PLAYED YOUR COMPANY'S 25-YEAR-OLD FLAGSHIP FUCKING PROPERTY

3. It should be part of the playtest process, really, the designer playing his own game.

While I agree, I also want to know if Gygax played AD&D, or only Dm'd. Or If Steve Jackson ever played GURPS. I know he's played Munchkin 'cause I've seen him play it in person, but that doesn't really count.

Like the OP said, how many designers actually played their games as players? How many have the time, or can push aside their ego enough to let someone else run their baby?

Unrelated to the thread, but related to Palladium and Kevin: I finally completed my collection of old TMNT game books. Truckin' Turtles came in the mail today!

Quote from: RunningLaser;921881I've read a few times online that his games are more free wheeling and that most of his rolls were handled by percentile dice.  Going by hazy memory, I seem to recall that he used stats more as guidelines for what things could do and went from there.

That would explain one of the more persistant annoyances I have with the Palladium system games... that 90% of your stats are essentially meaningless from a rules persepective. Only rolls of 16 and up directly impact the rules. On 3d6.  

Where is my GURPS book that breaks down the statistical probabilities of any given number coming up on 3d6?  Bah. I'm too lazy to do it in my head... and yes, I do know there are some rules artifacts and dice oddities that make higher numbers more probable than that, but still.  Oh, I got a five PS? Bummer man. Guess I'll only be sorta weak and still hump this two hundred pound railgun around like a champ!  PP 4? Eh. Whatevah.

Because... NARRATIVE!!! WOOOHOOOOO!!!!!

yeah. I believe it.

I've found a surprising number of RPG designers don't seem to test their games as players.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;921831I'm pretty sure KS does plenty of playtesting.

What gives you that impression?

Quote from: Onix;921825I disagree with that,

You'd still be wrong.  The problem is that your people know you, and they will have idea of how you adjudicate and you'd know how they react.  It doesn't help you because it just feeds in the echo chamber.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;921976You'd still be wrong.  The problem is that your people know you, and they will have idea of how you adjudicate and you'd know how they react.  It doesn't help you because it just feeds in the echo chamber.

And now you're just fighting to be right. I told you that the effect is overblown. I've done playtesting with dozens and dozens or people that have never gamed before in their life but I don't hand them the GM reigns, that would be less effective in my primary goal, to encourage new players in the hobby.

The reason it's overblown is it's not possible for my players to know how I adjudicate a new game with new rules. Honestly I don't know how to adjudicate in some cases in a new game so how can they read my mind for something I don't even know?

I've got over 27 years of playtesting under my belt. I think I'll take my own advice on how to playtest since I have a bit more experience publishing games than you do. Seeing that I have published games and other people have played them without my presence and have reported successful games, I can report at least competence in having my RPG rubber meeting the road. I may not be anyone important but at least I have that.

You're making a claim based on what? Something someone told you? I don't see your name associated with any RPGs, 24hr contests or modules. Admittedly I just did a quick search on RPGGeek and RPG.net but those guys are usually pretty thorough.

Taking playtesting to that length is unnecessary and overblown. It's also not what any successful company does, at least not until the product has been run in house many times.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;921940I've found a surprising number of RPG designers don't seem to test their games as players.



What gives you that impression?

Actually, I have no idea. I'm one of the few gamers who has never played TMNT, Palladium, or RIFTS. I just know the online stereotypes. Other than the occasional insistence that KS is a thin-skinned, litigation-happy jerk, the dominant idea is that RIFTS is a wonderfully inventive idea and a cool game universe supported by a dumpster fire of an unbalanced ruleset. The idea that it is that way because no one at a game company could be bothered to playtest their product is entirely too convenient to believe without some solid evidence. I may be a jaded old codger, but part of my jadedness is to believe that we don't know the actual reasons for things.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;922000Actually, I have no idea. I'm one of the few gamers who has never played TMNT, Palladium, or RIFTS. I just know the online stereotypes. Other than the occasional insistence that KS is a thin-skinned, litigation-happy jerk, the dominant idea is that RIFTS is a wonderfully inventive idea and a cool game universe supported by a dumpster fire of an unbalanced ruleset. The idea that it is that way because no one at a game company could be bothered to playtest their product is entirely too convenient to believe without some solid evidence. I may be a jaded old codger, but part of my jadedness is to believe that we don't know the actual reasons for things.

I find being unbalanced in Rifts is a feature. I do think that the rules as written are clunky and don't flow very well.
I've read much praise for the setting, and I do like it, but I also find it pretty Saturday-morning-caroon-ish in tone and content. That Siembieda is fond of peppering his text with childish exclamations doesn't help. "Wowie, Zowie, Rifts!!! Use some common sense, guys! Hah!"

I've never actually played in (as opposed to GMed) anything I wrote myself.

Quote from: RPGPundit;922590I've never actually played in (as opposed to GMed) anything I wrote myself.

So honest question:  Would you want to play in one of your designs run by someone else?

Quote from: everloss;921885While I agree, I also want to know if Gygax played AD&D, or only Dm'd.(snip)

Mordenkainen was one of Gygax's characters in games run for him by the unfortunately named Rob Kuntz. WG5 Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure was based on an actual adventure DMed by Kuntz and played by Gygax using Mordenkainen, Tenser, et al. I'm not sure if he actually tried to play/run 1E by the book.

Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;922768Mordenkainen was one of Gygax's characters in games run for him by the unfortunately named Rob Kuntz. WG5 Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure was based on an actual adventure DMed by Kuntz and played by Gygax using Mordenkainen, Tenser, et al. I'm not sure if he actually tried to play/run 1E by the book.

We also know that Arneson played with MAR Barker, and MAR Barker has played in (an) Arneson's game(s), and probably others. Arneson's character in Tekumel was named Harchar, a pirate:).

BTW, until this thread, I'd always assumed that the authors that playtest at all would both GM and play using the rules;).

Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;922768I'm not sure if he actually tried to play/run 1E by the book.

Gronan of Simmerya (formerly Old Geezer) posts here (Geezer used to play with Gary & Dave). It would be interesting to hear him discuss Gary as Player.

Also, Welcome to theRPGsite!!!

Quote from: Spinachcat;923020Gronan of Simmerya (formerly Old Geezer) posts here (Geezer used to play with Gary & Dave). It would be interesting to hear him discuss Gary as Player.

Also, Welcome to theRPGsite!!!

Oh yeah, I remember OG's posts over at RPG.net.

And, thanks - I actually joined about six years ago but found that I couldn't access the site in my Third World country of domicile. It seems that my ISP is blacklisted by this site. However, in the first world I do have access. :)

Quote from: Christopher Brady;922764So honest question:  Would you want to play in one of your designs run by someone else?

Sure! That'd be a blast.
Though I'd be concerned the GM might feel nervous.

Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;923193Oh yeah, I remember OG's posts over at RPG.net.

And, thanks - I actually joined about six years ago but found that I couldn't access the site in my Third World country of domicile. It seems that my ISP is blacklisted by this site. However, in the first world I do have access. :)

Where did you live?

Anyways, welcome to theRPGsite!