Quote from: Marleycat;970574...allowed the Nephandi to win the whole thing without a fight.

Eh? Explain.

Quote from: Nexus;970570I don't follow?

I was going off on a tangent. In the original draft of MoN, there was a chapter set in Australia. It got cut before it was published. It later got put in the supplement Terror Australis. Then in the mid-90s, they published a revised version of MoN and put the Australian chapter back in.

Having run MoN multiple times, it just doesn't have strong enough hooks to get anyone to travel there. My point was that it was actually a reasonable idea to cut it. It's a perfectly good adventure. It just is wasted as part of MoN.

I actually love the Australia chapter but yeah it has nothing to do with the rest of the adventure.

Quote from: Aglondir;970575Eh? Explain.

Nephandi in Mage the Ascension were basically in control from Sorcerers Crusade and beyond happily playing the Order of Reason (Control) vs. the Traditions (Freedom). Why the hell do you think the only middle ground group (Freemasons) were eliminated? The Technocracy was or never will be about safety vs. danger because they flat out eliminate choice and they flat out brainwash people. Currently even the Trads have full on technomages even in the Verbena for godsakes. And yes, I played a Verbena Technomage when Revised was out. You going to tell me an actual mage that is intelligent, not trapped in hubris, high arte etc. wouldn't go this direction? The modern world is what it is and Awakening should give you that clue. Adapt or die, culture be damned.

Quote from: Voros;970581I actually love the Australia chapter but yeah it has nothing to do with the rest of the adventure.

That's where my frustration comes from. I'd love to run it, but I don't want to lean on the players to go there, so it just sits idle every time. It even involves one of the ways to win, but the players always go for a more obvious way.

I would love to run Masks with my current group as I've converted them to CoC. Any tips? It seems to me that its quite heavy on cultists and that could get a bit samey. Also the first major encounter seems like a likely TPK.

Quote from: Baulderstone;970576I was going off on a tangent. In the original draft of MoN, there was a chapter set in Australia. It got cut before it was published. It later got put in the supplement Terror Australis. Then in the mid-90s, they published a revised version of MoN and put the Australian chapter back in.

Having run MoN multiple times, it just doesn't have strong enough hooks to get anyone to travel there. My point was that it was actually a reasonable idea to cut it. It's a perfectly good adventure. It just is wasted as part of MoN.

Oh, thanks for explaining.

Quote from: GameDaddy;970508...I see, so you are adding some new goals to RPGs then, that weren't originally part of the rules for games in general or horror in particular. Just what are you hoping to acheive in doing this?



Eh? ...WTF are you on about? What kind of drugs, prescriptions, or illegal cocktails would possibly make you believe that, based on what I wrote here earlier?  For the record though, I will state I have a very extreme prejudice against depictions of sex and violence in roleplaying games, even for horror RPG. Reason is, ...and you should learn this, ...just so you don't accidentally execute anyone vulnerable, by your arrogant display of extreme stupidity here today, and becuase you don't understand the power of your words yet, is there are alot of people who can be triggered into depression, or even a suicidal depression by unexpected combinations of sex and violence. So when you are saying it's ok to depict these in your RPG because it's just a game, you are saying it's ok to assault these people, becuase ...duh  your game is a horror game, and they should expect to be mentally raped.

Finally, my personal sex life is none of your business.

I would have answered that, but TrippyHippy put it more succinctly than I was going to, so I'll just leave it here instead:).

And BTW, "mentally raped" is a bullshit combination of words. It's comparing the unease caused by objectionable content to the actual suffering of rape victims, which is both trivializing their experience, and disrespectful. Please, stop doing that!

Quote from: TrippyHippy;970511I think what we are all saying is that we can differentiate between what is real and what is fictional, and that creative fiction doesn't have arbitrary restrictions based upon the sensibilities of prudes.

Yeah, that. And I'm also saying I'm really thankful GameDaddy's sex life indeed isn't my concern:D!

Also, it's highly laughable to advise people to "go get treatment for mental issues" over their choices of fictional content, when in your next post you yourself explain that this is "because you don't want to trigger other people's mental issues".
Someone should get treatment, alright, but it's not the people that can tolerate horror that are the problem, here. Not when we came together to play a horror game, to begin with;).

(Also, GameDaddy, I warn new players that all my games have content many might find objectionable. Anyone who chooses to stay has already declared it's not a problem for them. Yes, I know it's a revolutionary notion for some, but I do rely on people to know what is best for them:p!
Maybe you should try showing them that much respect, too;)!)

Quote from: Aglondir;970567I don't think that's accurate.  

Up until Achilli, the game had two themes: personal horror, and the Jyhad (elders vs. anarchs.) Both had been dying for a while, but Achilli finalized it by focusing the game on the Grand Sabbat War. The other thing he did was kill the Ravnos with the power of metaplot (thankfully.) But as a result, the Technocracy became the big bad ass faction of the WOD, proving that Mage was always the bullshit we suspected it was (throwback losers fighting against penicillin and air conditioning.)

Metaplot sucks and I like the Ravnos. The Week of Nightmares was the point where it became too obvious that the metaplot had gotten out of hand and that Justin Achilli was out of control.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;970545It isn't horror that original White Wolf and OPP presented. It's splatterpunk and shock.

The people at original White Wolf and OPP wouldn't know horror if it came up and french kissed them.

Horror is about evoking fear. With a thick spooky atmosphere. And a sense of creeping dread. It's about emotion, instinct. Reducing an otherwise normal sane human being to a creature of pure terrified instinct.

White Wolf magazine used to have articles about utilising the splatterpunk genre in Vampire when it first came out, in fact. Again, you have a very restricted sense of what the horror genre entails here.

Quote from: Voros;970588I would love to run Masks with my current group as I've converted them to CoC. Any tips? It seems to me that its quite heavy on cultists and that could get a bit samey. Also the first major encounter seems like a likely TPK.

I'll PM you about it.

Quote from: GameDaddy;970504Eh? It's not the unsocial or unsavory aspects that make a horror game great, but the unknown, the suspense or the delayed anticipation, and the elements of surprise combined... In some very rare cases the unsocial or unsavory aspects, combined with the remainder mentioned here can salvage an otherwise bad story or game experience, however I have found that to be the extreme exception and not the norm for any type of horror, be it games, written stories, or movies.

Hacks who rely on making their games interesting by adding unsocial or unsavory aspects are a mentally crippled lot that offer the players few opportunities for any type of creative control over their experience. They instead, are simply misery tourism guides intent on ensuring the dues ex machina of their failed storylines and plots are executed without player agency being able to effect the story. Now this is simply not roleplaying if the players can't change what they do, or if the outcome of their actions in a scenario, or adventure can't be changed or otherwise altered to create a positive situation, or outcome. If the only situation is that we have to have unsocial or unsavory aspects for our horror game, then it is not a horror game, but a different railroad, an express freight train to completely different hell, one, where true horror (and fear) don't exist, and is replaced by a numbing boredom instead that is insensitivity, and indifference.

There are many, many B-grade horror movies, but only a very few horror masterpieces, games, or movies, or books with the power to scare the living S&$^ out of you. These would be games, or books, ...or movies that make you wake up sweating, or screaming in terror, or that make you too afraid to turn out all the lights, or that are so scary that you are completely unwilling to sit in the unquiet dark, alone, by yourself. Throwing in a few unsocial or unsavory aspects won't get you these experiences, although they may sicken, or revolt your average eleven year old.

So, who is your game really for? is it for mature adults looking for quite possibly a thrilling and simultaneously terrifying experience, or is your game just there, so you can gross out eleven year olds? inquiring minds are keen to know. My horror games are for the adults.

Also, if anyone can save White Wolf just on the quality of his writing alone, I'd once again have to endorse Kenneth Hite over pretty much anyone, including Mark Rein-Hagan.

For anyone here unfamiliar with his true qualities of Kenneth Hite as a game designer, writer, foodie, and movie critic, feel free to google Prince of Cairo and Livejournal, and educate yourself.

I hear you.

When Paizo mandated a honeytrap and rape quota for their bestiaries, I was disgusted. D&D has a long history of monsters which lure/rape/eat people (orcs which rape human women, lamias which pretend to be gorgeous women, etc), but Paizo took it to new heights. This trivializes the very real horror of rape and making it a generic monster modus operandi is just plain crass.

Other publishers have been so much worse. That shouldn't absolve Paizo, however.

Quote from: Marleycat;970560But Innocent Blood was pretty good

Honestly I hate vampires and metaphors they represent. I'm all in on most any version of Mage or sorcerers, witches, wizards and related and the metaphors they represent that I fully support VM5's attempt to portray vampires as the horrible predators and parasites that they are.

A lot of people get bent out of shape when the WoD becomes about playing moral monsters, rather than just dark super powered monsters.  Vampires are metaphors for junkies at best, rapists at worst, and assholes at every step on the scale in between and including.  Honestly, I wonder how well the Ventrue will function since their Clan weakness is basically "you discriminate".  I mean, we've already seen how if the vamp feeds exclusively on kids, obviously the author is a pedophile*.  Place your bets that the first person to make a Ventrue who exclusively feeds on black men will be branded a racist in real life.
 
(*I've heard murmurs the author -is- a pedophile, but no actual evidence to back up the gossip)

Quote from: Doc Sammy;970629Metaplot sucks and I like the Ravnos. The Week of Nightmares was the point where it became too obvious that the metaplot had gotten out of hand and that Justin Achilli was out of control.

Agreed.  I mean, I tried to change things... do what I wanted to with the game, use the bits and pieces I liked and ignore the rest.  The Week of Nightmares was near the end of the line anyway, and I thought "I can just ignore it."  But then... (sniffle)...  Justin put a pistol to my head and threatened to kill me in front of my friends if I didn't have almost all of the Ravnos die out for his metaplot.  I felt so violated, but to make matters worse, he kicked me all the way to the game store and made me keep buying books and... a....  I HAD TO USE THE METAPLOT ALRIGHT!!!



I had to use the metaplot.

Quote from: Baulderstone;970643I'll PM you about it.

Bleah, fuck that noise. Do a Masks of Nyarlathotep Tips thread here or in Design, Development and Gameplay forum.
Why take useable gaming information to PM?