Read the gory details here at Tenkar's Tavern. (http://www.tenkarstavern.com/2018/04/ken-whitman-youve-been-served.html)
Not familiar with this particular kickstart, but I certainly believe that if you pay to support something you should get that something. I hope that others who do kickstart projects pay attention to this and do their best to make things right!
Quote from: finarvyn;1033989Not familiar with this particular kickstart, but I certainly believe that if you pay to support something you should get that something. I hope that others who do kickstart projects pay attention to this and do their best to make things right!
You know how you should do that? By not buying into a promise, but actually buying a PRODUCT. If they can't get the money for the startup on their own, then maybe it shouldn't see the light of day, ne?
Well, this is how people get the money for the startup. 20 years ago it was day trading, and average joes tried to do what dedicated stock market analysts did for a living (with mixed results). Today, the average joes are doing what venture capitalists did for a living, and surprise, surprise there are mixed results. Regardless, it is the current model, and those people who previously went to venture capitalists or friends and family (or having started out in a lucrative career and now liquidating your savings to attempt a creative enterprise) are now doing Kickstarters. Like it or lump it, this is the modern system.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1034001You know how you should do that? By not buying into a promise, but actually buying a PRODUCT. If they can't get the money for the startup on their own, then maybe it shouldn't see the light of day, ne?
There's a reason I'm not launching my planned kickstarter until the writing is done (with the exception of the planned 'insert your character here' slots in the default setting for higher tier backers), the layouts are done, all the internally produced artwork is complete and the only thing left are the licence fees for certain pieces of art I intend to use and the actual printing (the kickstarter is to limit my own financial risks... if it doesn't get funded then the backers get their money back and I don't have to pay for the print run out of my own pocket before selling them).
Part of the backer rewards (in addition to the books themselves) will be the pre-release pdfs (i.e. versions missing the licensed art and backer NPC's) of the two books upon successful completion of the kickstarter as proof its not some pie-in-the-sky project from a first time publisher.
Stretch goals? Additional copies for the initial print run (after which it will be POD), improving/maintaining the website (which I will have launched prior to the kickstarter) and the rest will be banked for art/writing of planned supplements.
Enough of these have crashed and burned that I intend to do everything I can to put backer's minds at ease about the project and to not over-promise on what can be delivered.
I buy products, not the promise of one. I'll wait till it hits the store shelves before picking anything up.
Now, that I've got my opinion out of the way, the Tenkar Tavern post is very light on details beyond the Knights of The Dinner Table live action series. Who is this Mr. Whitman? And can I get more information on what he did, please?
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1034001You know how you should do that? By not buying into a promise, but actually buying a PRODUCT. If they can't get the money for the startup on their own, then maybe it shouldn't see the light of day, ne?
I know that kickstart is supposed to be "buyer beware" but I suppose it all comes down to the reliability of the source. I'm pretty sure Goodman Games (for example) doesn't put anything on kickstart until the product is pretty much written, so they use the funding for artwork and printing costs. Others may be doing things on speculation where if they get the money they _start_ working on the project. Much less likely that the thing will get done.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1034006I buy products, not the promise of one. I'll wait till it hits the store shelves before picking anything up.
You can certainly do that, but quite a few games as of late (mainly board games), are Kickstarter exclusive. If you don't get them on Kickstarter, you don't get them at all.
The horses are out of the barn, it's too late to close the doors.
Quote from: Celestial;1034010You can certainly do that, but quite a few games as of late (mainly board games), are Kickstarter exclusive. If you don't get them on Kickstarter, you don't get them at all.
That's nice. If it's not on store shelves (and that includes electronic ones, like Amazon or Drivethru) I'm not really interested in it.
Quote from: Celestial;1034010The horses are out of the barn, it's too late to close the doors.
Just means they don't get my dollar, which in the grand scheme of things means nothing, but I sleep better at night knowing that what I bought, is what I wanted, not a promise of something that may or may not be.
Either way, I'm still wondering who this Ken Whitman is.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1034012That's nice. If it's not on store shelves (and that includes electronic ones, like Amazon or Drivethru) I'm not really interested in it.
Just means they don't get my dollar, which in the grand scheme of things means nothing, but I sleep better at night knowing that what I bought, is what I wanted, not a promise of something that may or may not be.
Either way, I'm still wondering who this Ken Whitman is.
He's pretty infamous for stealing others' RPG IPs and passing it off as his own. Artwork for sure, and I think whole rulesets (not just mechanics) as well.
5 seconds on Google threw up this (http://notanotherdime.blogspot.com/), I have not checked it.
I hope he pays, and pays, and pays. He's a scumbag.
Pretty damning. Thank you for the information.
The thing is though, why would you ever give Ken Whitman money in the first place? His whole history is sketchy going back at least 20 years.
Quote from: Motorskills;1034017He's pretty infamous for stealing others' RPG IPs and passing it off as his own. Artwork for sure, and I think whole rulesets (not just mechanics) as well.
5 seconds on Google threw up this (http://notanotherdime.blogspot.com/), I have not checked it.
That sounds like James Shipman the creep who stole art and RPGs and was selling them with name changes and other tweaks. He even had the gall to release a game called True West which he claims was written in 79.
https://www.amazon.com/True-West-Wild-Roleplaying-Game/dp/1453600027/ref=sr_1_13?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1523585974&sr=1-13 (https://www.amazon.com/True-West-Wild-Roleplaying-Game/dp/1453600027/ref=sr_1_13?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1523585974&sr=1-13)
And this gem.
QuoteThe front and back covers and cover art was created by the famous western artist Tom C. Horn, who is a long time friend and gamer himself.
Followed by the real artists comment.
QuoteElements of my artwork are being used on the cover of this product without permission.
Quote from: Omega;1034080That sounds like James Shipman the creep who stole art and RPGs and was selling them with name changes and other tweaks. He even had the gall to release a game called True West which he claims was written in 79.
https://www.amazon.com/True-West-Wild-Roleplaying-Game/dp/1453600027/ref=sr_1_13?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1523585974&sr=1-13 (https://www.amazon.com/True-West-Wild-Roleplaying-Game/dp/1453600027/ref=sr_1_13?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1523585974&sr=1-13)
And this gem.
Followed by the real artists comment.
FYI, Shipman died in February. (http://www.pulliamfuneralhomes.com/obits/obituary.php?id=658881)
Quote from: Omega;1034080That sounds like James Shipman the creep who stole art and RPGs and was selling them with name changes and other tweaks. He even had the gall to release a game called True West which he claims was written in 79.
https://www.amazon.com/True-West-Wild-Roleplaying-Game/dp/1453600027/ref=sr_1_13?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1523585974&sr=1-13 (https://www.amazon.com/True-West-Wild-Roleplaying-Game/dp/1453600027/ref=sr_1_13?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1523585974&sr=1-13)
And this gem.
Followed by the real artists comment.
Ah yes, I got the two confused, thanks for the correction. Ken's list of unhappy people equally lengthy it seems!
He's certainly a scumbag who has failed to deliver.
Looking through the brief, it appears to be a civil case. That doesn't really mean too much, unfortunately.
If people want to make waves, they need to bring a class-action before the state.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;1034003Regardless, it is the current model, and those people who previously went to venture capitalists or friends and family (or having started out in a lucrative career and now liquidating your savings to attempt a creative enterprise) are now doing Kickstarters. Like it or lump it, this is the modern system.
And it should be pointed out that in many cases in the past, these people didn't do any of those things. Instead, they simply didn't start the project at all. Kickstarters have produced a good many products that simply wouldn't have been produced if they didn't exist, including many that eventually do wind up in stores.
Quote from: FeloniousMonk;1034095He's certainly a scumbag who has failed to deliver.
Looking through the brief, it appears to be a civil case. That doesn't really mean too much, unfortunately.
If people want to make waves, they need to bring a class-action before the state.
Not enough money.
Quote from: Ulairi;1034188Not enough money.
Also, the only people who benefit from class actions are the Lawyers.
On the last page, it mentions Kickstarter refused to provide a list of backers to the plaintiff. This didn't allow him to try to get them to join legal action.
Quote from: Almost_Useless;1034193On the last page, it mentions Kickstarter refused to provide a list of backers to the plaintiff. This didn't allow him to try to get them to join legal action.
Good. My information is none of his damn business.
Quote from: Ulairi;1034197Good. My information is none of his damn business.
If he can make a case with it? It is his business. That's how American Law works. However, in this case, he didn't. Thankfully.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1034001You know how you should do that? By not buying into a promise, but actually buying a PRODUCT.
I think you've mistaken the URLs. We're talking about Kickstarter. (https://www.kickstarter.com/)
You're talking about this site. (https://www.amazon.com)
QuoteIf they can't get the money for the startup on their own, then maybe it shouldn't see the light of day, ne?
Actually, "ne". (Funny enough, that means "no" in my native language:D).
The creators being able to get the money for the startup on their own is unrelated to the qualities of the work itself, those are often different skillsets.
The whole point of Kickstarter is that some works that should definitely see the light of day would never see it unless other people help those creators that aren't able to get the money for the startup;).
Judging by his post, you should probably look at Chris24601 for an example of this.
Granted, this requires trusting the creators' good intentions. When people use money because they trust others, other people are going to abuse that trust, it's basically guaranteed. Ken Whitman is allegedly one of those people.
And that's why it's a good thing that he has been served. The courts can now send a message to those who would abuse the trust of other people, should they decide he's done that:).
But it doesn't change at all the way we should treat Kickstarter. Or at least, it shouldn't change it;).
Quote from: AsenRG;1034247I think you've mistaken the URLs. We're talking about Kickstarter. (https://www.kickstarter.com/)
You're talking about this site. (https://www.amazon.com)
Actually, "ne". (Funny enough, that means "no" in my native language:D).
The creators being able to get the money for the startup on their own is unrelated to the qualities of the work itself, those are often different skillsets.
The whole point of Kickstarter is that some works that should definitely see the light of day would never see it unless other people help those creators that aren't able to get the money for the startup;).
Judging by his post, you should probably look at Chris24601 for an example of this.
Granted, this requires trusting the creators' good intentions. When people use money because they trust others, other people are going to abuse that trust, it's basically guaranteed. Ken Whitman is allegedly one of those people.
And that's why it's a good thing that he has been served. The courts can now send a message to those who would abuse the trust of other people, should they decide he's done that:).
But it doesn't change at all the way we should treat Kickstarter. Or at least, it shouldn't change it;).
There will always be those who abuse any system for illegitimate gains. This does not automatically discredit the system in question. Kickstarter has been a net good for the gaming hobby,
in spite of fraudulent behavior such as that of which Ken Whitman is accused.
Quote from: RandyB;1034257There will always be those who abuse any system for illegitimate gains. This does not automatically discredit the system in question. Kickstarter has been a net good for the gaming hobby, in spite of fraudulent behavior such as that of which Ken Whitman is accused.
Exactly my point, made more succintly:). Thank you!
Good.
The thing is, Crowdfunding is a REALLY fantastic concept. It's an amazing way for creative types to potentially monetize their skills.
But for it not to be totally ruined, it needs to be accountable.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1035306Good.
The thing is, Crowdfunding is a REALLY fantastic concept. It's an amazing way for creative types to potentially monetize their skills.
But for it not to be totally ruined, it needs to be accountable.
Not really, most who use it have zero business sense. In fact very few can be considered successes. Most Kickstarters deliver late. If it was a real business, they'd have gone under, or at least been in financial trouble. In fact, most use it as a supplementary income model, while they continue to have a day job to pay the bills, because they almost always fail to live up to promised release dates.
My pussy and I are very much relieved. And it all warrants a good thrashing... I am unanimous in this! :cool:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]2417[/ATTACH]
(Seriously, over twenty posts and not a single 'Are You Being Served?' joke? :D )
Quote from: Opaopajr;1035315My pussy and I are very much relieved. And it all warrants a good thrashing... I am unanimous in this! :cool:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]2417[/ATTACH]
(Seriously, over twenty posts and not a single 'Are You Being Served?' joke? :D )
It's a British show, I don't think anyone outside of Easter Canada and a some U.S. states gets anything from the motherland anymore.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1035336It's a British show, I don't think anyone outside of Easter Canada and a some U.S. states gets anything from the motherland anymore.
FWIW, it's been in the Britcom rotation for PBS since it was on the air.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1035336It's a British show, I don't think anyone outside of Easter Canada and a some U.S. states gets anything from the motherland anymore.
That, and everyone knows the only good British comedy is
Absolutely Fabulous. ;)
Quote from: Apparition;1035353That, and everyone knows the only good British comedy is Absolutely Fabulous. ;)
Ah, I see that you have misspelled
Red Dwarf .......
:D
Quote from: jeff37923;1035375Ah, I see that you have misspelled Red Dwarf .......
:D
You mean Spaced?
Quote from: Mistwell;1035389You mean Spaced?
No, "turning off the television".
Quote from: jeff37923;1035375Ah, I see that you have misspelled Red Dwarf .......
:D
Isn't it spelled B-L-A-C-K A-D-D-E-R? :D
Quote from: sniderman;1034087FYI, Shipman died in February. (http://www.pulliamfuneralhomes.com/obits/obituary.php?id=658881)
Here's the Online Obituary with comments from people. It's an interesting perspective.
http://www.pulliamfuneralhomes.com/obits/obituary.php?id=658881
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1034190Also, the only people who benefit from class actions are the Lawyers.
Very true.
Quote from: Opaopajr;1035315(Seriously, over twenty posts and not a single 'Are You Being Served?' joke? :D )
We are surrounded by savages.
I love that show. I think I've watched the entire series at least 3 times. Tremendous fun and it holds up incredibly well.
Quote from: JeremyR;1034062The thing is though, why would you ever give Ken Whitman money in the first place? His whole history is sketchy going back at least 20 years.
This. I remember bad water cooler talk in my FLGS about Whitman back in the 90s when the Wizards RPG was on the shelf. Obviously nothing has changed except new generations of dupes for him to grift. That doesn't make it suck any less for them, though.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1035314Not really, most who use it have zero business sense. In fact very few can be considered successes. Most Kickstarters deliver late. If it was a real business, they'd have gone under, or at least been in financial trouble. In fact, most use it as a supplementary income model, while they continue to have a day job to pay the bills, because they almost always fail to live up to promised release dates.
Irrelevant. I'm not talking about Kickstarter as it is or as it is used today; I'm talking about crowdfunding as an economic model for the future. We are moving into a world where replication becomes ridiculously easy. Right now, you already have the potential to fileshare information: movies, tv, RPG books, etc. But in just a little bit, really cheap really effective 3D printing will be happening. And at that point people will be able to "fileshare" a car.
The economic model of "I make x, and then you pay for it" is not going to keep working.
So we need crowdfunding, the model of "I have a concept; you pay for it and then the product is delivered", to end up working.
Right now we only see the birthing pains of what might become a radical change in the world economy.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1035926Irrelevant. I'm not talking about Kickstarter as it is or as it is used today; I'm talking about crowdfunding as an economic model for the future. We are moving into a world where replication becomes ridiculously easy. Right now, you already have the potential to fileshare information: movies, tv, RPG books, etc. But in just a little bit, really cheap really effective 3D printing will be happening. And at that point people will be able to "fileshare" a car.
The economic model of "I make x, and then you pay for it" is not going to keep working.
So we need crowdfunding, the model of "I have a concept; you pay for it and then the product is delivered", to end up working.
Right now we only see the birthing pains of what might become a radical change in the world economy.
A couple of comments
The more general case is a client patron relationship. I.e. "You want to or are producing cool stuff. I want to support you." Kickstarter is a specific kind of patron client. Patreon is another. There are multiple ways of doing this but what it amount is the customer i.e. patron connecting in some way (interest, like, utility), to a producer i.e. client at far more intimate level then traditional economics.
So I concur that we will need something like kickstarter as a way of leveraging the internet.
The downside of this is that the producer (artist/author/etc) has to be more involved. It highly unlikely that a shy author or an author not willing to get involve beyond the writing of the work will find success. Unlike the traditional model where the middle man like a publisher takes on that responsibility.
But then again how the internet enable patron-client relationship also helps producers connect to cover each other weakness. It may be that big products are done by temporary groups of creative types who come together to execute it, split, and combine in other ways for different projects.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1035926But in just a little bit, really cheap really effective 3D printing will be happening. And at that point people will be able to "fileshare" a car.
Yeah I already ran a science fiction campaign with this has mature. The players were really weirded out about but how little money was used.
The basic issue is that. Due to increasing automation and advances in digital technology, the ability of a single individual to provide for the comfort and survival other individual will be greatly expanded. For example in agriculture, labor productivity is almost 2.5 times greater than it was at the end of World War 2. When combined with improvement in crop yields, a farm doesn't need as much farmers to feed the same number of people.
Most of that was evolutionary, better tools, better seeds, and better techniques. Now unrelated advances in drone and robotics may shift that all into computer time (https://www.directionsmag.com/pressrelease/7231). Automated tractors controlled by GPS, fruit picking drones, etc.
Most people think of people losing jobs but what this really means that a some point a half dozen people can now produce all of the food needed for a small town.
Combine this with the production of the other necessities of life means the abundance like we never seen before. Already from the point of view of a medieval peasant our time has abundance like they never seen before.
Then the next step is the manufacturing of food from CHON feed stocks (Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Nitrogen plus minerals and supplements) with 3D fabricator manipulating things at a molecular level. Somewhere in the next few generation it wouldn't surprise me that instead of a microwave you have a food fabricator. At first it would make base ingredients to combined traditionally then later entire meals.
All of this will be controlled by software and data that can be easily replicated.
Now I wrote this to illustrate a point right now the above is science fiction and futuristic. It not what we have now or in the next decade. But the general scenario that I illustrate is the situation right now with the production of works involving the written word or visual arts. In the 2010s we are living the the age of abundance for books and art.
A couple of things I noticed about the situation.
1) People like to pay something for works made by their favorites. For a few that something is a large amount but for most it is a few bucks here and there.
2) People want help filtering the kalidoscope of offerings, hence the attractions of RPGNow/DriveThruRPG, certain blogs, and to a lesser extent forums.
3) The middle man is increasingly cut out. Even RPGNow is not a traditional middleman more like a service. For X cut we will do Y things for you most importantly collect the customer's money.
4) Individual creatives are collaborating in one time or short term alliances to realize specific projects.
Quote from: Krimson;1035398Isn't it spelled B-L-A-C-K A-D-D-E-R? :D
Actually it's spelled "Have you been served?"....
Do we need to keep rattling off names of British Comedic IPs, or can we just acknowledge that the Brits are rather funny (I didn't even know that was up for debate)?
If we're looking for the best, why stick with existing pieces? I think the Monty Python crew, Red Dwarf crew, Hugh Laurie and Rowan Atkinson should get together and (re- in Laurie's case) explore Wodehouses "Jeeves" stories in a ten season/series-long (so eight episodes, plus Christmas special) show with Yakkidy Sax as the intro music.
Willie, that would be insanely fun!
Quote from: CanBeOnlyOne;1036189Actually it's spelled "Have you been served?"....
Allo, Allo?
Quote from: Willie the Duck;1036257Do we need to keep rattling off names of British Comedic IPs, or can we just acknowledge that the Brits are rather funny (I didn't even know that was up for debate)?
I've been watching Brit Coms since Monty Python in the 70s. I don't mind if people keep rattling them off, because there may be some I haven't seen. :)
I grew up on Benny Hill overseas. Booby jokes and Yakkety Sax, international language, it was. Might explain me a bit, though. :D