So not only is Eldritch Entertainment, the start-up proposed by Mentzer, Kask and Co. begging you for money (http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=37952&start=33) (relevant portions here (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=322417&postcount=35)), now they're soliciting web design for free (http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=46209)!
Yeah, sure, stunts like this will get you taken seriously.
Kellri was right about these guys years ago.
Quote from: KenHR;416190So not only is Eldritch Entertainment, the start-up proposed by Mentzer, Kask and Co. begging you for money (http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=37952&start=33) (relevant portions here (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=322417&postcount=35)), now they're soliciting web design for free (http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=46209)!
Yeah, sure, stunts like this will get you taken seriously.
Kellri was right about these guys years ago.
I love this part:
Quote from: Some Dragonsfoot Microserf... it will be very insecure (WP is open source which means anyone can get the specs for the guts of your security), and it will be a maintenance nightmare. If you are looking for a little site to post blogs and such, WP will do fine, sure; otherwise I recommend a hand-coded site.
No shit, Sherlock. The best cryptographic algorithms have been pored over by experts endlessly. I can get the algorithms with a short Google search. It's the keys it produces that make it secure, not the way it makes them. I also like the backhanded swipe at open source; he seems to be forgetting that 60% (and increasing) of the Internet is run on open source server software (Linux and Apache), not to mention all the web technologies that are open source, like Perl, php, MySQL (mostly), PostGRES, Java(sort of) and dozens of others.
To the main point, though: agreed, not a great way of doing business. Granted, I have some skill at design and all, but it really isn't that hard to set up a blog and a set of forums. Thanks to open source (hence part of my opening rant :) ), it is exceptionally inexpensive compared to using Windows and proprietary software to do the same thing.
Quote from: StormBringer;416197I love this part:
"... it will be very insecure (WP is open source which means anyone can get the specs for the guts of your security), and it will be a maintenance nightmare. If you are looking for a little site to post blogs and such, WP will do fine, sure; otherwise I recommend a hand-coded site."
No shit, Sherlock. The best cryptographic algorithms have been pored over by experts endlessly. I can get the algorithms with a short Google search. It's the keys it produces that make it secure, not the way it makes them. I also like the backhanded swipe at open source; he seems to be forgetting that 60% (and increasing) of the Internet is run on open source server software (Linux and Apache), not to mention all the web technologies that are open source, like Perl, php, MySQL (mostly), PostGRES, Java(sort of) and dozens of others.
To the main point, though: agreed, not a great way of doing business. Granted, I have some skill at design and all, but it really isn't that hard to set up a blog and a set of forums. Thanks to open source (hence part of my opening rant :) ), it is exceptionally inexpensive compared to using Windows and proprietary software to do the same thing.
I agree completely! Well the bits I understood ;) If they have no money they should get a blog up and running then monetise it later. Hell it's working for Raggi et al. Also if they can't afford print run's then start small using Lulu or POD. Starting a business by begging for money seems crass in the extreme to me. Trading on old reputations and feelings of nostalgia. These guys have missed the boat anyway unless they can provide something totally new and fresh.
I'll be happy to support them by buying their product. Not shares, not layout software, product. If it's made with a typewriter and run through a shoddy xerox, that's good enough for me if the content is great.
Also, great to reread that thread from a year ago with people, particularly J Arcane and Pundit, pontificating about how anyone who showed skepticism about the venture was deluded or just protective of their internet niche being taken over by pros.
Quote from: RPGPunditYes. Also, so much for the whole "The OSR-geeks are only being critical about the business-side of things". He basically expressed his number ONE fear about this venture being that these guys are Old-School Designers, not Old School "Renaissance" Designers.
Its like if a bunch of Rush Tribute Bands got together, and then got upset at the idea of Rush actually showing up, because they don't really get the Rush Tribute Band experience, and therefore couldn't possibly do a good job of playing a Rush song! Its fucking insanity!
Yeah, like that. So, Rush, show us the music. :cool:
Quote from: StormBringer;416197I love this part:
"... it will be very insecure (WP is open source which means anyone can get the specs for the guts of your security), and it will be a maintenance nightmare. If you are looking for a little site to post blogs and such, WP will do fine, sure; otherwise I recommend a hand-coded site."
Well, to their credit this wasn't them talking, it was in a response posted by another Dragonsfoot denizen. At least they admitted they had no knowledge of the stuff...
Awesome.
I cannot wait for the impending blogsphere brush war.
It will fucking rock.
More tempest in the teapot, please! :rolleyes:
Well, given the amazing previews of the new material from these guys we have seen in the year since they announced their venture, they deserve free labour! They are bursting with ideas and just need a little help to get it all out!
Wait....:o
oh yeah...:rolleyes:
I will judge them on their final product.
But I don't understand why they didn't create their company in the post-TSR era instead of waiting for the post-Gygax era.
As for the "begging", I see zero problem asking fans for help. But yes, it doesn't say "we're a well funded operation"...
I just spent twenty minuted trying to figure out who the hell these people are, and I'm only more lost, not less.
Quote from: kregmosier;416209Well, to their credit this wasn't them talking, it was in a response posted by another Dragonsfoot denizen. At least they admitted they had no knowledge of the stuff...
Dammit, you are absolutely correct, I should have mentioned that. Updating now.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;416252I just spent twenty minuted trying to figure out who the hell these people are, and I'm only more lost, not less.
RPGnet mod doesn't know who Frank Mentzer is, why am I not suprised. Frank Mentzer was making RPGs when Ron Edwards was still sucking on his momma's cock. How's that?
Quote from: CRKrueger;416257RPGnet mod doesn't know who Frank Mentzer is, why am I not suprised. Frank Mentzer was making RPGs when Ron Edwards was still sucking on his momma's cock. How's that?
The phrase "Mentzer Basic" comes to mind. Kids these days, don't know their history. :)
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;416252I just spent twenty minuted trying to figure out who the hell these people are, and I'm only more lost, not less.
RPG history Fail.
(http://epicfail.xepher.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/epicfailcake.jpg)
Quote from: CRKrueger;416257Frank Mentzer was making RPGs when Ron Edwards was still sucking on his momma's cock. How's that?
*Looks on wikipedia*
Left TSR more-or-less with Gygax, has a new start-up. Doesn't seem have any RPG credits after 1987 on my usual reference (http://www.pen-paper.net/rpgdb.php?op=showcreator&creatorid=3088), though. Mainly an editor and the like, which sounds promising in a start-up to me.
Huh. Okay.
Quote from: Benoist;416263RPG history Fail.
Yeh, pretty much.
I came into gaming through GURPS, and when I looked at D&D, was informed by my parents that it wasn't allowed in the house.
For some reason, I never did catch up on the old stuff all that much. Keep meaning to, but new shiny.
About Tim Kask. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Kask)
Quote from: Benoist;416282About Tim Kask. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Kask)
Okay,
another venerable-type dude.
Who has actually done me a good turn. I have good (if hazy) memories of Awful Green Things From Outer Space, and if he encouraged said publication, the rock on.
What's up with their business model that they need to do this, then?
I mean, why not just post their first intended product up on Kickstarter or some other "preorder to raise capital" thing?
I can't really answer, since I haven't been following too closely. If memory serves, they came out announcing their plans for a new publishing company, and started asking fans to actually fund the starting enterprise sight unseen. That did not go over too well with said fandom.
Others will be able to fill in the blanks, or correct me if I'm not remembering right.
I'm looking forward to whatever adventures they are able to produce. At Gary Con II I had the opportunity to play in a game run by Frank Mentzer. It was a lot of fun, and I found him to be a challenging and engaging Dungeon Master.
I hope they can get a few adventures published. I'd be happy to see what they come up with.
Quote from: StormBringer;416262The phrase "Mentzer Basic" comes to mind. Kids these days, don't know their history. :)
I don't know. To be honest it's only recently I've started to take paying attention to individual game designers. And even now I think Gary Gygax is probably the only name most gamers know about. We just played the games and didn't really worry too much about how wrote them.
I think even then gamers knew the history but it was mostly framed in terms of publishers rather than individual writs. I think it was fairly common to find players who were fans of Chaosium, TSR, WEG or White Wolf as each of these companies had a style of its own which tended to carry through their diffferent games.
Which is actually a tremendous problem with RPG publishing, since companies don't write supplements, people do. TSR could mean someone actually talented like Monte Cook (although he's not my favourite), a generic hack like Douglas Niles or Jean Rabe, whose output was uniformly godawful.
What a weird way to do (or plan doing) business. Alas, division of labour has advanced humaty on all accounts. A writer obviously is not a manager.
I get the feeling these people are only able to write as main task and not on the sidelines of a regular job. Which is asking for a little much, these days.
Big names from the rpg past don't always produce good stuff later. For example, Jim Ward (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Ward_%28game_designer%29) ran the crappy d20 company "Fast Forward Entertainment (http://www.pen-paper.net/rpgdb.php?op=showpublisher&publisherid=211)".
In the case of Kask and Mentzer, wonder what exactly their business plan is. Hopefully it is not to crank out another retroclone rpg ruleset.
Reading the original idea over on DF, it struck me as a bit overzealous and unrealistic for a startup plan.
Covering that many systems, at least right away looks like a sure path to burnout and failure. I would suggest picking a couple systems to start with at most and actually producing an introductory product or two.
The best way to drum up excitement and support is to produce something cool that will get people talking. Self publishing and distribution have come a long way since the old days. There is little excuse for anyone who wants to write something for not doing so provided they are serious about it.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;416405There is little excuse for anyone who wants to write something for not doing so provided they are serious about it.
Sure there is. I quit writing "professionally" to go to medical school. But before that I noticed that the time I spent getting my writing into game books was not well paid. And by that I mean that if you totaled up the hours I spent writing proposals, dealing with developers, fiddling with contracts, and arguing with the other chefs working on the stew, and considered my paycheck for writing to be renumeration only for that lost time - I would still have made more money simply working at Pizza Hut. Let alone driving an ambulance (my actual job at the time).
Writing is something I do for fun. I like doing it. Dealing with publishing companies is not fun. I don't like doing it, and that is why I need to be paid money for doing so. If it were not for a misplaced sense of "pride" at having my work published in "official" books, I would have simply walked away from the career long before I did.
So the thing I do today, where I make games and put them online for
free, and then go back to studying for my real job where I will make real money - that makes much more sense from an economics standpoint. The time taken to monetize my products is simply less well paid than spending an equal number of hours working in healthcare and leaving my work as freeware.
-Frank
Quote from: ExploderwizardThe best way to drum up excitement and support is to produce something cool that will get people talking. Self publishing and distribution have come a long way since the old days. There is little excuse for anyone who wants to write something for not doing so provided they are serious about it.
That would have the taint of the amateur for Kask. This is the man who hated fanzines back in the day (http://www.dragonsfoot.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=457867&sid=fd55e81999e3bea625b09fe3462dba40#p457867) and still doesn't have much good to say about independent publishers (http://lordofthegreendragons.blogspot.com/2010/07/guest-editorial-by-timothy-kask.html).
Quote from: FrankTrollman;416407Sure there is. I quit writing "professionally" to go to medical school.
You're responding to the literal meaning but not the intent, which is that if someone really wants to put out product, they don't need a quarter million and a company infrastructure to do so. Or at least put out something so that people will believe that it's not a scam and can see the direction of the company.
Given that they are begging for free web design, I take it that they didn't have much success with investors.
Quote from: KenHR;416408That would have the taint of the amateur for Kask. This is the man who hated fanzines back in the day (http://www.dragonsfoot.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=457867&sid=fd55e81999e3bea625b09fe3462dba40#p457867) and still doesn't have much good to say about independent publishers (http://lordofthegreendragons.blogspot.com/2010/07/guest-editorial-by-timothy-kask.html).
Tim on answering player questions: "One of the very few good aspects of being the guy that had to answer the questions was that nobody cared how I answered. I would let them accumulate untill I scored some really good smoke and then bang them all out in a bong-haze inspired all-nighter."
Well then, sign me up as an investor.
Quote from: FrankTrollman;416407Sure there is. I quit writing "professionally" to go to medical school. But before that I noticed that the time I spent getting my writing into game books was not well paid. And by that I mean that if you totaled up the hours I spent writing proposals, dealing with developers, fiddling with contracts, and arguing with the other chefs working on the stew, and considered my paycheck for writing to be renumeration only for that lost time - I would still have made more money simply working at Pizza Hut. Let alone driving an ambulance (my actual job at the time).
Writing is something I do for fun. I like doing it. Dealing with publishing companies is not fun. I don't like doing it, and that is why I need to be paid money for doing so. If it were not for a misplaced sense of "pride" at having my work published in "official" books, I would have simply walked away from the career long before I did.
So the thing I do today, where I make games and put them online for free, and then go back to studying for my real job where I will make real money - that makes much more sense from an economics standpoint. The time taken to monetize my products is simply less well paid than spending an equal number of hours working in healthcare and leaving my work as freeware.
The same can be said about many "dream jobs" that some young people aspire to, such as:
- movie star
- professional sports player
- rock star
- fashion model
- etc ...
In the geek/nerd world, typical "dream jobs" is crap like:
- writing rpg games
- writing/drawing comic books and/or cartoons
- become the next George Lucas
- become the next Einstein or Hawking
- designing video games
When I was growing up, other popular "dream jobs" at the time were: rocket scientist, astronaut, etc ... which today are no longer really considered "dream jobs" or viable.
During the dotcom bubble, some kids wanted to become the next "Bill Gates", which isn't so popular or viable anymore.
Wouldn't be too surprising that many kids and young adults do not think "rationally" about things in an economic sense.
Kids and young adults being driven more by ego and emotions, than anything resembling "rationality".
Count me in as one of the people mocking them for begging for money. I mocked Seimbeida when he did it, I'll mock Metzner and co too.
Clearly they have neither found investors nor seem to have managed to create any product so far - something even the Forge hacks (and Pundit) managed to do.
It's a little sad that this is where they appear to be at this stage of their life / careers.
Quote from: jgants;416430It's a little sad that this is where they appear to be at this stage of their life / careers.
They could be bored with being retired. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Nicephorus;416411Tim on answering player questions: "One of the very few good aspects of being the guy that had to answer the questions was that nobody cared how I answered. I would let them accumulate untill I scored some really good smoke and then bang them all out in a bong-haze inspired all-nighter."
Well then, sign me up as an investor.
"I used to put off doing my job for as long as possible, then I would get high on the company dime and give everyone the finger, laughing all the way to the bank. So, meanwhile, we need $250k."
Quote from: Cole;416435"I used to put off doing my job for as long as possible, then I would get high on the company dime and give everyone the finger, laughing all the way to the bank. So, meanwhile, we need $250k."
The dotcom strategy of fleecing venture capitalist firms in the late 1990's.
Quote from: FrankTrollman;416407Writing is something I do for fun. I like doing it. Dealing with publishing companies is not fun. I don't like doing it, and that is why I need to be paid money for doing so. If it were not for a misplaced sense of "pride" at having my work published in "official" books, I would have simply walked away from the career long before I did.
So the thing I do today, where I make games and put them online for free, and then go back to studying for my real job where I will make real money - that makes much more sense from an economics standpoint. The time taken to monetize my products is simply less well paid than spending an equal number of hours working in healthcare and leaving my work as freeware.
-Frank
Writing game material is fun, that is why you do it. Turning those efforts into money (enough to be considered a career) is, as you explained , much less fun.
I have no problem with producers charging money for their work. If the product is good I will happily pay for it.
The expectation that such work can provide a sustainable living is where everything falls apart. The rpg hobby was built by people who loved what they were doing. You said yourself that the business end of things was not fun and that is why it needed to produce cash.
Once something becomes a primary and dependent source of income, the business end of things gets ever more important ( in other words, the fun part starts to decrease rapidly) leading to thoughts of "why am I doing this again?" Eventually the decline of passion will be evident in the actual work.
IMHO the hobby as a whole is better off largely made up of smaller semi-professional producers who can put out material that they love without worrying about it having to provide a living.
Otherwise we have the problem of the industry serving itself instead of the hobby.
Quote from: ggroy;416436The dotcom strategy of fleecing venture capitalist firms in the late 1990's.
RPGs were really cleaning up in the late 1990's too, especially traditional D&D style ones!
Wait.
Quote from: Nicephorus;416411Tim on answering player questions: "One of the very few good aspects of being the guy that had to answer the questions was that nobody cared how I answered. I would let them accumulate untill I scored some really good smoke and then bang them all out in a bong-haze inspired all-nighter."
Well then, sign me up as an investor.
Frankly, when it comes to the Sage Advice column, that's the only proper way to do it aside from answering "Grow some balls and make your own goddamn decisions already." to every inane request they send you. So one point goes to Tim Kask. On the other hand, read his screeds at the links KenHR provided. Ugh.
Quote from: Melan;416387Which is actually a tremendous problem with RPG publishing, since companies don't write supplements, people do. TSR could mean someone actually talented like Monte Cook (although he's not my favourite), a generic hack like Douglas Niles or Jean Rabe, whose output was uniformly godawful.
Jean Rabe, the Tubgirl of RPGs, goddamn you for bringing back those memories.
Quote from: CRKrueger;416462Jean Rabe, the Tubgirl of RPGs, goddamn you for bringing back those memories.
I love that description.
This thread is apparently slander and defamation (http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=985533#p985533).
Which is nothing kaskoid would stoop to (http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=429282#p429282). Nope (http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=429604#p429604). Not at all (http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=430538#p430538).
I fail to see how this thread constitutes defamation, and moreover, how this post of Tim Kask actually would refer to threads like this one? Harsh criticism here, okay. But it's full of links to actual posts written by Tim. It's not like people here are just making stuff up, barring their own opinions of what these posts show or mean about Tim.
PS: Why are you so worked up about this, Ken? A personal beef going on?
I have to say bringing up posts from 3 years ago doesn't really count. Lord knows I said some stupid stuff in the past that don't really apply anymore.
Quote from: Melan;416460Frankly, when it comes to the Sage Advice column, that's the only proper way to do it aside from answering "Grow some balls and make your own goddamn decisions already."
Bingo. Its too bad the Dragon coddled the OCD bitches and rules lawyers.
Quote from: danbuter;416494I have to say bringing up posts from 3 years ago doesn't really count. Lord knows I said some stupid stuff in the past that don't really apply anymore.
The interwebs damn us forever.
Quote from: Melan;416460Frankly, when it comes to the Sage Advice column, that's the only proper way to do it aside from answering "Grow some balls and make your own goddamn decisions already." to every inane request they send you. So one point goes to Tim Kask. On the other hand, read his screeds at the links KenHR provided. Ugh.
Yes. But there's actions and there's public statements. If someone wants to not only run a business but get investors, professionalism is expected. Admitting to illegal drug use and insulting the core of your target audience is not professional behavior.
Quote from: danbuter;416494I have to say bringing up posts from 3 years ago doesn't really count. Lord knows I said some stupid stuff in the past that don't really apply anymore.
Granted, but the posts in question concern a grudge the man has nursed for over thirty years. I highly doubt he's changed his tune.
Quote from: Melan;416460Frankly, when it comes to the Sage Advice column, that's the only proper way to do it aside from answering "Grow some balls and make your own goddamn decisions already." to every inane request they send you. So one point goes to Tim Kask. On the other hand, read his screeds at the links KenHR provided. Ugh.
Well, you could opt not to publish a "sage advice column," answer only questions you didn't consider "inane," or answer them in good faith and good humor while introducing the column with "Remember, kids, all answers presented in this column are merely the measured opinion of the Sage - for the real answers, ask yer DM!" All of these seem to me a better choice than to opt to officially field questions, yet do so with reluctance and contempt. Or, like Stan Lee, they could offer no-prizes :)
Quote from: Spinachcat;416523Bingo. Its too bad the Dragon coddled the OCD bitches and rules lawyers.
I feel you there, I must say.
I NEVER understood why people were so keen on getting answers from "The Sage." I would read those columns and think, yes, just that: "grow some balls already!" Since then, it's only gotten worse though. Now the guys who tell you to grow some balls and make your own decisions already, like us, seem to be getting fewer and farther apart. The Official word of the publisher, the Errata, all that bullshit... that's depressing to watch so many people fall for that, honestly.
Quote from: Benoist;416574I NEVER understood why people were so keen on getting answers from "The Sage." I would read those columns and think, yes, just that: "grow some balls already!" Since then, it's only gotten worse though. Now the guys who tell you to grow some balls and make your own decisions already, like us, seem to be getting fewer and farther apart. The Official word of the publisher, the Errata, all that bullshit... that's depressing to watch so many people fall for that, honestly.
It's the cult of the designer is right.
Nothing and i mean nothing survives contact with the play group.
Agreed.
We didn't have Official Errata and Q&A and all that bullshit back in France twenty years ago. Were our games hopelessly "broken" and "unplayable"? Hell, NO! Did I have some fun at that time? Bet your ass I did!
Conclusion: all that stuff is bullshit. I don't need no Sage. No Errata. No Official Whatever.
If I like your game, I'll play it. If I don't, I'll play something else. Basta.
Quote from: Benoist;416574I NEVER understood why people were so keen on getting answers from "The Sage." I would read those columns and think, yes, just that: "grow some balls already!" Since then, it's only gotten worse though. Now the guys who tell you to grow some balls and make your own decisions already, like us, seem to be getting fewer and farther apart. The Official word of the publisher, the Errata, all that bullshit... that's depressing to watch so many people fall for that, honestly.
This is where the hobby and the industry are at odds. In order to get Joe gamer to buy into constant updates, and feel like extra material needs to be "official" the designers need the idea that they,as professionals, know better what makes for a fun game than the ones playing to take hold.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;416266*Looks on wikipedia*
Left TSR more-or-less with Gygax, has a new start-up. Doesn't seem have any RPG credits after 1987 on my usual reference (http://www.pen-paper.net/rpgdb.php?op=showcreator&creatorid=3088), though. Mainly an editor and the like, which sounds promising in a start-up to me.
Huh. Okay.
Hrrrmmm??? yah. He's been like at every GenCon, ever. So if you ran a game at GenCon at anytime in like the last 30 years or so, he probably sat at your table and sampled your GMing style... at least once.
You can also usually find him (50% prob) at the GenCon auction, especially when the old RPGs and boardgames come up for auction.
If you walk into The Tower of Gygax Room you automatically have like a 25% chance of having an encounter with Frank Mentzer as he usually GMs a 0D&D hack-n-slash fest at least once a day as well.
Just look for that group of old guys with jeans and hair down to their shoulders surrounded by coz-play girl groupies. You'll have an automatic 66% chance of having a Mentzer encounter.
If you happen into the strip club down Washington street, there's an %05 chance of encounter Mentzer in lair there....
and you have an automatic 22.5% chance of meeting and speaking with him at the Media gathering.
Chances are, you probably already have met him and spoke to him, at least once... If you ever went to GenCon.
LOL Love your post GD. Reads like an Ecology section of the MM. :D
Quote from: Spinachcat;416523Bingo. Its too bad the Dragon coddled the OCD bitches and rules lawyers.
People who are autistic, asperger, borderline, etc ... ?
The only person I've met over the years who was an extreme hardcore rules lawyer type, was someone who was also a high functioning autistic. Apparently this person liked reading the 1E AD&D DMG all the time as if it was pleasure reading, and had almost a photographic memory for recalling stuff from the DMG.
Though when it came to anything which didn't have any precise rules (ie. real life), frequently this person was lost for words. This person was fired from just about every job they had, due to them being "useless" for just about everything.
Quote from: ggroy;416641People who are autistic, asperger, borderline, etc ... ?
Sometimes. Obsessive-compulsive, nitpicky to the last degree, etc. There is an amount of systematic, compulsory hair-splitting going on amongst gamers that is nothing short of astounding, you have to admit.
Quote from: Benoist;416646Sometimes. Obsessive-compulsive, nitpicky to the last degree, etc. There is an amount of systematic, compulsory hair-splitting going on amongst gamers that is nothing short of astounding, you have to admit.
Not just rpg gamers.
Academic types tend to exhibit similar traits. (ie. Professors, researchers, etc ...).
Quote from: ggroy;416641People who are autistic, asperger, borderline, etc ... ?
The rules-lawyers of my experience aren't really like this - they're just regular assholes trying to wheedle out an advantage. It's not bothering them that the rules aren't applied perfectly, it's bothering them that the rules aren't being applied to their immediate benefit :)
Some college majors are even custom made for such OCD, autistic, nitpicky, etc ... types: mathematics, physics, engineering, etc ... where there's almost always a "correct answer" for questions on assignment or exams.
Quote from: Cole;416648The rules-lawyers of my experience aren't really like this - they're just regular assholes trying to wheedle out an advantage. It's not bothering them that the rules aren't applied perfectly, it's bothering them that the rules aren't being applied to their immediate benefit :)
I don't think I've met many types who fit the above description. This sounds more like somebody who is just abusing the system for their own benefit, at the expense of everybody else. Basically nothing more than pure personal self-interest.
The "rules lawyers" types I've met over the years, were very strict about the rules being applied correctly, regardless of whether they were benefiting or at a disadvantage.
Quote from: ggroy;416652I don't think I've met many types who fit the above description. This sounds more like somebody who is just abusing the system for their own benefit, at the expense of everybody else. Basically nothing more than pure personal self-interest.
The "rules lawyers" types I've met over the years, were very strict about the rules being applied correctly, regardless of whether they were benefiting or at a disadvantage.
That's interesting. Your experience is very different from mine.
Quote from: Cole;416654That's interesting. Your experience is very different from mine.
I thought the autistic type "rules lawyers" types I've played rpg games with in the past, frequently made the games really slow paced to the point of boredom. Basically they would spend so much time on minutiae and doing things strictly "by the book" in detail, that the other players got bored very easily.
For example, if the players went to check out an area in the Anauroch (in the Forgotten Realms) where there was hardly anything there written on the map or in sourcebooks, the highly functioning autistic DM would just go through repeatedly saying "you didn't find anything" for hours or even multiple sessions repeatedly doing search type dice rolls.
Quote from: ggroy;416656I thought the autistic type "rules lawyers" types I've played rpg games with in the past, frequently made the games really slow paced to the point of boredom. Basically they would spend so much time on minutiae and doing things strictly "by the book" in detail, that the other players got bored very easily.
For example, if the players went to check out an area in the Anauroch (in the Forgotten Realms) where there was hardly anything there written on the map or in sourcebooks, the highly functioning autistic DM would just go through repeatedly saying "you didn't find anything" for hours or even multiple sessions repeatedly doing search type dice rolls.
That certainly sounds awful.
For such highly functioning autistic types, highly detailed rulebooks and supplement setting type books, are "god's gift" of heaven to them.
Typically it was stuff like Rolemaster/MERP, 3E/3.5E D&D with tons of 3PP supplements, GURPS with tons of supplement books, etc ...
Quote from: Cole;416657That certainly sounds awful.
Apparently the other players who were also high functioning autistic, asperger, borderline, etc ... types, actually liked playing in such games. The non-autistic, non-borderline, etc ... players typically quit after a number of sessions of being bored out of their skulls.
Quote from: Benoist;416485I fail to see how this thread constitutes defamation, and moreover, how this post of Tim Kask actually would refer to threads like this one? Harsh criticism here, okay. But it's full of links to actual posts written by Tim. It's not like people here are just making stuff up, barring their own opinions of what these posts show or mean about Tim.
PS: Why are you so worked up about this, Ken? A personal beef going on?
I'm pretty sure he's not talking about this thread but the
comments in this blog post (http://yourdungeonissuck.wordpress.com/2010/11/01/review-fight-on-10/#comments).
In other news:
hyperbole=/= slander.
Maybe next week we can work towards getting a handle on irony.
@ KenHR, RE: the links to DF. I honestly think that some people believe that if you really don't name names- even if you use obvious substitutions- it doesn't count. My time in the Bay Area during the early 90's working for and dealing with the wilting flower children leads me to believe that it's a hippy thing.
Quote from: GameDaddy;416622If you ever went to GenCon.
Nope. There are a few local cons I attend, but "going to cons" never struck me as an
especially fun part of being a gamer, so I've never made the trek.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;416741Nope. There are a few local cons I attend, but "going to cons" never struck me as an especially fun part of being a gamer, so I've never made the trek.
I never found them to be either. In fact, I tend to find them rather dull.
Quote from: StormBringer;416262The phrase "Mentzer Basic" comes to mind. Kids these days, don't know their history. :)
Fuck. Thanks for making me feel old. ;)
-=Grim=-
Quote from: GrimJesta;416839Fuck. Thanks for making me feel old. ;)
-=Grim=-
No problem, you will get a bill in a couple of days. :)
I'll be sure to include the few grey hairs I plucked out right after my realization. Hahha.
-=Grim=-
Quote from: Benoist;416574I NEVER understood why people were so keen on getting answers from "The Sage." I would read those columns and think, yes, just that: "grow some balls already!" Since then, it's only gotten worse though. Now the guys who tell you to grow some balls and make your own decisions already, like us, seem to be getting fewer and farther apart. The Official word of the publisher, the Errata, all that bullshit... that's depressing to watch so many people fall for that, honestly.
I hear ya. I also never understood the need or importance of "The Sage." Most of the time, when Dragon arrived at the gaming table, my group (the one that actually gave any kind of a damn about rules at all) would often look at the Sage column and wonder how any of that stuff ever came up in play. Or, if it looked like it could come up in play, we didn't put much weight in what the Sage said, beyond his rulings being
a way to adjudicate the issue, rather than
the way. The lag time between sending in a question and the possibility of an answer (which was slim, at best) made waiting on a decree from "higher up" a foolish dream at best. So the Sage columns were generally only of interest to us if they addressed something truly bizarre, so we could laugh at it.
The stuff Gygax wrote was taken a bit more seriously, but even then his "Sorcerer's Scroll" column and editorials were usually about stuff that didn't impact upon our game at the time of publication.
I've always taken errata seriously, but even then, it's never caused any game I've played to grind to a halt. Things that don't make sense have always been ruled upon on the fly.
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;416853I hear ya. I also never understood the need or importance of "The Sage."
either for me there were two types of Dragon Articles.
The ones written by Gygax or Greenwood which were examined with the benefit of the doubt.
The ones written by everyone else which were taken with a grain of salt.
We still called bullshit on anything we thought was wrong, even if the man himself wrote it.
My whole grade school and high school played that way, it was a while before I encountered people who did it differently. I just thought to myself "Did you miss the 150 times Gary said 'Do whatever the fuck you want, it's your game?'"
We read Dragon a lot and the only "articles" that I can remember ever having any impact on our gaming was the Crimefighters RPG by David Cook and the Archer/ranger class. We used both.