TheRPGSite

What the question says (and give me some time to get the poll up).

I hate to be a dick but the problem with this poll is for any given person a lot of these are going to be "I don't know this game."

shakes head...

Your mom was a story game last night.

HEY OH!

Quote from: misterguignol;458436Your mom was a story game last night.

HEY OH!

"I mean, you can use your mom for anything..."

Virtually all of them can be, depending on what the players are after.  A few (Arkham Horror) might be a stretch.  And I'm not familiar with all of them. So if people were using my (correct, wise) definition, there could be a check mark next to almost all of them.  But I will let others use their (foolish, incorrect) definition and not fuck up your poll with my silly votes.

I think most of them can be played in other ways too...Actually that might be a more interesting poll for someone who thinks as I do that "story gaming" is an approach to games rather than games themselves. Which of these are not versatile enough to accommodate both story and non-story approaches?

I think the Gumshoe "clue trail" system, the core element of that game, probably doesn't make sense in any other sort of game than a story-based one that follows a mystery or horror or other genre setup that has those sorts of chokepoints.  But maybe you could make a non-story version of that "clue trail" for other sorts of things like exploration?  I haven't seen a Gumshoe game do that yet, maybe someone will write one.

Smallville is an edge case. If you use the methods of generating situations/badguys/etc. that is in the book you will inevitably create story-like play because it will strike the player characters' motivations and relationships...but maybe someone could do this with just a naturalistic setup and a solid reason for the PCs to be targeted? Not sure. It's a close call.

Polaris would be hard to play in a non-story way, given the give-and-take of the system.  Like, you need to have some idea of how you want things to go in order to play, if you don't, you can't really play the game. I'll put that in the "only really supports one approach" box.

Although Burning Wheel doesn't have a very strict story structure, Burning Empires, another implementation of the same system, absolutely does.   I'd say BW can be played non-story, BE...hm, another edge case I'd say.  The structure might be seen by players as a snapshot-in-time instead of rising action.

I'm not really familiar with all the games on the list, like HeroWars/Quest or Panty Explosion.

I lost three of my buddies in a panty explosion back in 'nam.

Quote from: Cole;458438"I mean, you can use your mom for anything..."

She gave me a Kicker, I gave her a couple of Bangs.  Then we GNS'ed all night long.  She Tagged my Aspects so hard that I got Brain-damage.

Quote from: misterguignol;458442She gave me a Kicker, I gave her a couple of Bangs.  Then we GNS'ed all night long.  She Tagged my Aspects so hard that I got Brain-damage.

*Bass Drum*
*Snare Drum*
*Crash Cymbal*

"Here's here all week folks..."

:-D  That was hilarious.

Quote from: misterguignol;458436Your mom was a story game last night.

HEY OH!

Good call. :D

Quote from: Aos;458441I lost three of my buddies in a panty explosion back in 'nam.

AH FUCK LOL! Shut the fuck up, Aos! You just make me spill coke through my nostrils!

:D :D :D

Quote from: Aos;458441I lost three of my buddies in a panty explosion back in 'nam.

It was the Devil's birthday in Cambodia, and the panties were close. They were real close. I couldn't see 'em yet. But I could smell 'em...

Well anyway.

Also, Arkham Horror? That doesn't go far enough. You should have put Munchkin in there. Maybe backgammon. Goddamn backgammon-playing swine.

I like this thread far, far more than I thought I would.

He wanted to give me a Panty Explosion but he was to Smallville.

... And this thread just jumped the shark.

Good news though... sharks with frigging laser beams will be coming soon to a combat theater near you...

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2070599,00.html#ixzz1LwLDgo7U (http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2070599,00.html#ixzz1LwLDgo7U)

Just need to strap on lasers that work under water, or cool sonic weapons, and we are in business!!! Woot!

Interestingly enough, it's the conservationists, not the military guys that are teaching the sharks to hunt.

Quote from: The Butcher;458496I like this thread far, far more than I thought I would.

Agreed...it did NOT go how I expected...=)

I have never seen half the games on that list, though I have heard of them on RPGNet.

Quote from: GameDaddy;458500... And this thread just jumped the shark.

Good news though... sharks with frigging laser beams will be coming soon to a combat theater near you...

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2070599,00.html#ixzz1LwLDgo7U (http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2070599,00.html#ixzz1LwLDgo7U)

Just need to strap on lasers that work under water, or cool sonic weapons, and we are in business!!! Woot!

Interestingly enough, it's the conservationists, not the military guys that are teaching the sharks to hunt.

Well awesome, that just makes toiletloads of sense.  Because if there's one thing that has eluded sharks for two hundred million years it's the ability to motherfucking hunt.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;458513Well awesome, that just makes toiletloads of sense.  Because if there's one thing that has eluded sharks for two hundred million years it's the ability to motherfucking hunt.

Couldnt have said it any better myself :)

Quote from: thedungeondelver;458513Well awesome, that just makes toiletloads of sense.  Because if there's one thing that has eluded sharks for two hundred million years it's the ability to m(&^!$^#$% hunt.

Yes... Now they are being trained to hunt even better and select new prey.

Humans pretty much haven't been at the top tier of the shark's food chain. Yet...

Quote from: thedungeondelver;458513Well awesome, that just makes toiletloads of sense.  Because if there's one thing that has eluded sharks for two hundred million years it's the ability to motherfucking hunt.

In my day we didn't even give our sharks names until they hit level five. Kids today with their laser beams and their cool powers and their healing surges.

I am stealing the word "toiletloads," though. Very evocative.

*looks at thread full of WIN*

:eek:

...




Just as I planned <_<

I would be interested if the two people who voted that the Board game Arkham Horror was a storygame would expand on their reasoning. Not in a sense of being aggressive and shouty, but actually out of real curiosity.

Quote from: Cole;458434I hate to be a dick but the problem with this poll is for any given person a lot of these are going to be "I don't know this game."

Its not 'being a dick' if you're telling the truth.

The vast majority of gamers haven't heard of most or maybe all of those 'games'.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;459742Its not 'being a dick' if you're telling the truth.

The vast majority of gamers haven't heard of most or maybe all of those 'games'.

- Ed C.

Really? They can't be that obscure. I haven't been to my games store in... wow, the better part of a decade... and I recognize about 90% of those titles (and have played more than a handful of them).

What's with the quotation marks around "game", anyway? Surely they're all games?

This thread needs more tits.

(http://tsh-ogame.com/images/gigantic_tits.jpg)

Quote from: Géza Echs;459745Really? They can't be that obscure. I haven't been to my games store in... wow, the better part of a decade... and I recognize about 90% of those titles (and have played more than a handful of them).

What's with the quotation marks around "game", anyway? Surely they're all games?

My point is that I've heard of most of those games but for a number of them I am not familiar enough with how they play to have an opinion. I doubt I am alone there.

Quote from: Cole;459760My point is that I've heard of most of those games but for a number of them I am not familiar enough with how they play to have an opinion. I doubt I am alone there.

Oh, yeah, that's valid and I'm in the same boat as you. I was more responding to Koltar's assertion -- which seems weird to me -- than anything else.

Quote from: Géza Echs;459761Oh, yeah, that's valid and I'm in the same boat as you. I was more responding to Koltar's assertion -- which seems weird to me -- than anything else.

And, since there's no "I don't know," option, the poll's results will be scattered and uninformative.

As far as Koltar's assertion...I got nothin'

I find it amusing that Amber is considered by 50% thus far to be a "story game."

What sweet irony. :teehee:

I'm not sure "Hero Wars/HeroQuest" is a sensible equivalence. I have Hero Wars (1st ed.), and it lacks a structure seems to be key to the "story" conceit of HeroQuest.

Quote from: PaladinCA;460235I find it amusing that Amber is considered by 50% thus far to be a "story game."

What sweet irony. :teehee:

I expect half of those are just to get up Pundit's nose.

Quote from: PaladinCA;460235I find it amusing that Amber is considered by 50% thus far to be a "story game."

What sweet irony. :teehee:

It really is story gamey the way it is set up.  So I don't disagree with people saying that

Quote from: One Horse Town;460316I expect half of those are just to get up Pundit's nose.

Dont help inflate the Pundit's ego any further.  Most likely people selected that because after reading it, its very story gamey.

Thats how after reading it it feels to me.  But then I consider any diceless game to be more story gamey

Quote from: Phillip;460315I'm not sure "Hero Wars/HeroQuest" is a sensible equivalence. I have Hero Wars (1st ed.), and it lacks a structure seems to be key to the "story" conceit of HeroQuest.

I've got Heroquest 1e; 2e was released a while back.

Bear in mind that all three designs were completely independent of Forge thought. Hero Wars was "adopted" by the Forge as an example of the type of design they liked (i.e., both focused and specifically fitting into their favored category). It's never been clear that any of their "adopted" games was really intended to be played the way that they say. If it matters at all, Heroquest was actually considered to be a regression away from the ideal and back toward badwrong thinking.

Be that as it may, HQ 1e has a number of "story" structures/practices such as:

Thematic traits that can be bent as far as you like both in definition and use. So how well you accomplish something can be a function of how important it is to you; a contest can be abstractly framed between my "loves my children" vs. your "duty to nation", etc.

Lack of concrete consequences, which leads to implicit conflict resolution and stakes-setting. I.e., if I win, then X will happen, if you win, then Y will happen.

Extended contests rules that completely detach narration and mechanics, letting them run in parallel with the only coordination being whatever the GM can enforce. E.g., "I'm going to flick a grain of rice at him for 15 points!" Even more would be use in social conflict where no matter how good or bad your argument, its impact depends on how many points you wager.

In Heroquest 2 I believe they pretty much did away with Extended contests, so that problem ought to be gone. The simple contests might also be better since there are fewer augments, which may make it easier to enforce use of sensible traits for the primary comparison.

However, HQ 2 has some sort of baked-in system that makes the difficulty of any contest dependent on the putative point in the story where it occurs. So that seems pretty bogus, and in fact it was even too much for some story-gamers.

Quote from: Daedalus;460319Dont help inflate the Pundit's ego any further.  

Don't underestimate the 'get up Pundit's nose' faction.

Quote from: Elliot WilenHowever, HQ 2 has some sort of baked-in system that makes the difficulty of any contest dependent on the putative point in the story where it occurs. So that seems pretty bogus, and in fact it was even too much for some story-gamers.

That's the bit missing from HW that I was talking about.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;460323However, HQ 2 has some sort of baked-in system that makes the difficulty of any contest dependent on the putative point in the story where it occurs. So that seems pretty bogus, and in fact it was even too much for some story-gamers.

I don't have my copy on me, but I thought that was an "at the GM's discretion" thing.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;460323Bear in mind that all three designs were completely independent of Forge thought. Hero Wars was "adopted" by the Forge as an example of the type of design they liked (i.e., both focused and specifically fitting into their favored category). It's never been clear that any of their "adopted" games was really intended to be played the way that they say.

Yeah, I mean, Castle Falkenstein was in the original "narrativism" essay, and it's basically a completely normal 1990s type game, with a vivid setting, GM-and-players setup and simple mechanics, similar to Vampire, which, by contrast, ended up being classified in the same category as cholera and rat poison.

Quote from: Peregrin;460333I don't have my copy on me, but I thought that was an "at the GM's discretion" thing.

I've read people say you can play without it. I was just trying to identify the thing that Phillip was talking about.

Quote from: One Horse Town;460327Don't underestimate the 'get up Pundit's nose' faction.

That's fair to say.  For me, it's just that I dislike diceless rpgs

And to me after reading Amber and a few others they come across as storygames to me

Quote from: One Horse Town;460316I expect half of those are just to get up Pundit's nose.

Really? I don't really care about the "story game" designation and so I'm not entirely sure what it entails, but it seems to me that Amber is a) definitional non-traditional and b) players have quite a bit more control over elements of the game than they do in traditional games. Those seem to be two big components of "story games."

I would imagine if you educated the man on the street gamer about Amber, they'd lump in it with the Forge/indie lot without much equivocation or fuss.

Seanchai

Amber seems that it would be a weird game to classify.  The characters are basically gods able to shape the reality of the shadow worlds, so when they "edit the world" it is doing it in character and not due to a player-based goal of story creation.

The fact that Amber is second on the list ahead of games with obvious storytelling mechanics, makes me think OneHorse has something there.  :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;460375Amber seems that it would be a weird game to classify.  The characters are basically gods able to shape the reality of the shadow worlds, so when they "edit the world" it is doing it in character and not due to a player-based goal of story creation.

The same is, of course, true of Nobilis which also appears to hold a high position on that poll. Much like the various White Wolf games, its GM advice discusses campaigns in terms of story, but the mechanics are purely based on the in-setting abilities and features of the characters. There aren't even drama points or whatnot.

Quote from: One Horse Town;460327Don't underestimate the 'get up Pundit's nose' faction.

Nor the Kiss Pundit's ass faction.

Quote from: GrimGent;460416The same is, of course, true of Nobilis which also appears to hold a high position on that poll. Much like the various White Wolf games, its GM advice discusses campaigns in terms of story, but the mechanics are purely based on the in-setting abilities and features of the characters. There aren't even drama points or whatnot.

I can't remember Pundit's position on Nobilis - just hated or hated because it's a "story game"?

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;460438I can't remember Pundit's position on Nobilis - just hated or hated because it's a "story game"?

As I recall, he considers it a "real RPG", just a terribly bad one.

Quote from: GrimGent;460441As I recall, he considers it a "real RPG", just a terribly bad one.

Which I find funny.  he considers it a terribly bad game, yet the pre-sale of Nobillis 3 sold more then 300 copies.

I wonder if The Pundit has even sold a half of that selling his "Superior" rpgs :rolleyes:

I am sure he will make some excuse that people have been convinced into buying it or buy it and never play it.

But I think its bullshit.   This coming for someone who owned the Nobillis 2 (the big white book) and didnt like it and who sold it (Dammit, I should have held on to it because it fetches more on ebay now then it did when I sold it)

Quote from: PaladinCA;460437Nor the Kiss Pundit's ass faction.

That's just me, sweetheart. :pundit:

Well looking good so far all the reviews of Tough Justice list it as a firm RPG.

It's a really bloody weird one though!

Quote from: jadrax;459738I would be interested if the two people who voted that the Board game Arkham Horror was a storygame would expand on their reasoning. Not in a sense of being aggressive and shouty, but actually out of real curiosity.

Fair enough.

Simply put, Arkham Horror creates a story.

Personally I find the game so random that the only point of playing is to see what kind of story it creates, and as a player you need to fill in the blanks and connect the random events into a coherent story yourself as opposed to operate exclusively from the character's POV. And there's no GM.

In one game, the person playing the doctor who can keep gates from opening around her location ends up drawing a card which states that a portal opens right in front of her, and asks if she reaches into it.

Turns out her anti-gate power keeps weaker gates from opening completely, and stronger ones from becoming fully fledged gates, which is why this was only a portal to the Court of Azathoth. She ended up reaching in and with my help barely got her hand out, taking with it a peculiar flute which some of you may be familiar with.

So the first part of that was just what the mechanics provided. The second was its interpretation, and I need to go beyond my character's POV and look at all the events as a whole to do so.

How is that NOT a storygame?

Quote from: chaosvoyager;484704Fair enough.

Simply put, Arkham Horror creates a story.

Personally I find the game so random that the only point of playing is to see what kind of story it creates, and as a player you need to fill in the blanks and connect the random events into a coherent story yourself as opposed to operate exclusively from the character's POV. And there's no GM.

In one game, the person playing the doctor who can keep gates from opening around her location ends up drawing a card which states that a portal opens right in front of her, and asks if she reaches into it.

Turns out her anti-gate power keeps weaker gates from opening completely, and stronger ones from becoming fully fledged gates, which is why this was only a portal to the Court of Azathoth. She ended up reaching in and with my help barely got her hand out, taking with it a peculiar flute which some of you may be familiar with.

So the first part of that was just what the mechanics provided. The second was its interpretation, and I need to go beyond my character's POV and look at all the events as a whole to do so.

How is that NOT a storygame?

Interesting.

I am glad I asked and I suspect you get more out of the game than I do.

Quote from: chaosvoyager;484704How is that NOT a storygame?

In pretty much exactly the same way that Monopoly isn't a storygame just because you can use it as an improv seed.

This is a stupid thread.  You don't vote in a poll to decide what's a storygame or not.  Its a question of the landmarks that define gaming.  If the majority vote differently, all that means is that they are misinformed.

RPGPundit

That may be, but the criteria used by CV to describe AA as a storygame are precisely the ones that distinguish storygames from other RPGs.

Quote from: RPGPundit;484959This is a stupid thread.  You don't vote in a poll to decide what's a storygame or not.  Its a question of the landmarks that define gaming.  If the majority vote differently, all that means is that they are misinformed.

Or that the criteria used to establish said landmarks need to be revisited and re-evaluated, yeah?

Quote from: Géza Echs;485020Or that the criteria used to establish said landmarks need to be revisited and re-evaluated, yeah?

That would mean that pundy was wrong. Which we all know. But he will never accept.
So no. And now stop criticizing him before you get banned.

Quote from: Géza Echs;485020Or that the criteria used to establish said landmarks need to be revisited and re-evaluated, yeah?

No.  If it turns out that most people end up liking storygames more than RPGs, that still doesn't make them RPGs.  You don't get to redefine something based on liking it, unless what you're defining is "what kind of games are popular".
If tomorrow Pictionary becomes more popular than Chess, that doesn't turn it into chess, it just makes it popular.

Note that this goes both ways; just because a real RPG is unpopular does not suddenly and magicall turn it into a storygame.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Justin Alexander;484812In pretty much exactly the same way that Monopoly isn't a storygame just because you can use it as an improv seed.

And you'd be right...

Except instead of playing an iconic object you're playing a human character with motives, attitudes, and objectives. And instead of cards representing property or money you have cards that describe a situation and present a dramatic choice. And instead of going around in a circle until everyone else runs out of money, you have a definitive MECHANICALLY ENFORCED narrative structure with Exposition, Rising Tension, and Climax.

Nice try though :)

Tacos.

Quote from: chaosvoyager;485121Except instead of playing an iconic object you're playing a human character with motives, attitudes, and objectives. And instead of cards representing property or money you have cards that describe a situation and present a dramatic choice. And instead of going around in a circle until everyone else runs out of money, you have a definitive MECHANICALLY ENFORCED narrative structure with Exposition, Rising Tension, and Climax.

Oddly, none of what you listed there is actually typical of storytelling games except for the "mechanically enforced narrative structure". (And you're clearly over-reaching in claiming that AH has that.)

Quote from: Justin Alexander;485139Oddly, none of what you listed there is actually typical of storytelling games

Then what the hell IS typical of a storytelling game?

Really, out of the top three, the only one I'd classify anywhere near a storygame is DitV. In both Sorcerer and Amber, you work from character perspective and cannot declare something is so outside of direct character action/perception.

Also, one Taco is not enough. I miss the original silliness of this thread.

Oh dear. I only know *of* three of those games, and of those, I've only seen one instance of one species in the wild (HQ, some years ago now). The other two I've heard tell of are Amber (thanks to these forums, actually) and FATE (thanks to another board I used to peruse).

I think some of other names are familiar, or "should" be, or something. But no, I have to be honest here - absolutely no idea what you mean by "story game", let alone which of these games (? - are they all...) might qualify.

Also, too lazy to search. :p


edit: Oh, it's a reanimated thread-creature. My mistake.