Quote from: One Horse Town;460327Don't underestimate the 'get up Pundit's nose' faction.

Nor the Kiss Pundit's ass faction.

Quote from: GrimGent;460416The same is, of course, true of Nobilis which also appears to hold a high position on that poll. Much like the various White Wolf games, its GM advice discusses campaigns in terms of story, but the mechanics are purely based on the in-setting abilities and features of the characters. There aren't even drama points or whatnot.

I can't remember Pundit's position on Nobilis - just hated or hated because it's a "story game"?

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;460438I can't remember Pundit's position on Nobilis - just hated or hated because it's a "story game"?

As I recall, he considers it a "real RPG", just a terribly bad one.

Quote from: GrimGent;460441As I recall, he considers it a "real RPG", just a terribly bad one.

Which I find funny.  he considers it a terribly bad game, yet the pre-sale of Nobillis 3 sold more then 300 copies.

I wonder if The Pundit has even sold a half of that selling his "Superior" rpgs :rolleyes:

I am sure he will make some excuse that people have been convinced into buying it or buy it and never play it.

But I think its bullshit.   This coming for someone who owned the Nobillis 2 (the big white book) and didnt like it and who sold it (Dammit, I should have held on to it because it fetches more on ebay now then it did when I sold it)

Quote from: PaladinCA;460437Nor the Kiss Pundit's ass faction.

That's just me, sweetheart. :pundit:

Well looking good so far all the reviews of Tough Justice list it as a firm RPG.

It's a really bloody weird one though!

Quote from: jadrax;459738I would be interested if the two people who voted that the Board game Arkham Horror was a storygame would expand on their reasoning. Not in a sense of being aggressive and shouty, but actually out of real curiosity.

Fair enough.

Simply put, Arkham Horror creates a story.

Personally I find the game so random that the only point of playing is to see what kind of story it creates, and as a player you need to fill in the blanks and connect the random events into a coherent story yourself as opposed to operate exclusively from the character's POV. And there's no GM.

In one game, the person playing the doctor who can keep gates from opening around her location ends up drawing a card which states that a portal opens right in front of her, and asks if she reaches into it.

Turns out her anti-gate power keeps weaker gates from opening completely, and stronger ones from becoming fully fledged gates, which is why this was only a portal to the Court of Azathoth. She ended up reaching in and with my help barely got her hand out, taking with it a peculiar flute which some of you may be familiar with.

So the first part of that was just what the mechanics provided. The second was its interpretation, and I need to go beyond my character's POV and look at all the events as a whole to do so.

How is that NOT a storygame?

Quote from: chaosvoyager;484704Fair enough.

Simply put, Arkham Horror creates a story.

Personally I find the game so random that the only point of playing is to see what kind of story it creates, and as a player you need to fill in the blanks and connect the random events into a coherent story yourself as opposed to operate exclusively from the character's POV. And there's no GM.

In one game, the person playing the doctor who can keep gates from opening around her location ends up drawing a card which states that a portal opens right in front of her, and asks if she reaches into it.

Turns out her anti-gate power keeps weaker gates from opening completely, and stronger ones from becoming fully fledged gates, which is why this was only a portal to the Court of Azathoth. She ended up reaching in and with my help barely got her hand out, taking with it a peculiar flute which some of you may be familiar with.

So the first part of that was just what the mechanics provided. The second was its interpretation, and I need to go beyond my character's POV and look at all the events as a whole to do so.

How is that NOT a storygame?

Interesting.

I am glad I asked and I suspect you get more out of the game than I do.

Quote from: chaosvoyager;484704How is that NOT a storygame?

In pretty much exactly the same way that Monopoly isn't a storygame just because you can use it as an improv seed.

This is a stupid thread.  You don't vote in a poll to decide what's a storygame or not.  Its a question of the landmarks that define gaming.  If the majority vote differently, all that means is that they are misinformed.

RPGPundit

That may be, but the criteria used by CV to describe AA as a storygame are precisely the ones that distinguish storygames from other RPGs.

Quote from: RPGPundit;484959This is a stupid thread.  You don't vote in a poll to decide what's a storygame or not.  Its a question of the landmarks that define gaming.  If the majority vote differently, all that means is that they are misinformed.

Or that the criteria used to establish said landmarks need to be revisited and re-evaluated, yeah?

Quote from: Géza Echs;485020Or that the criteria used to establish said landmarks need to be revisited and re-evaluated, yeah?

That would mean that pundy was wrong. Which we all know. But he will never accept.
So no. And now stop criticizing him before you get banned.

Quote from: Géza Echs;485020Or that the criteria used to establish said landmarks need to be revisited and re-evaluated, yeah?

No.  If it turns out that most people end up liking storygames more than RPGs, that still doesn't make them RPGs.  You don't get to redefine something based on liking it, unless what you're defining is "what kind of games are popular".
If tomorrow Pictionary becomes more popular than Chess, that doesn't turn it into chess, it just makes it popular.

Note that this goes both ways; just because a real RPG is unpopular does not suddenly and magicall turn it into a storygame.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Justin Alexander;484812In pretty much exactly the same way that Monopoly isn't a storygame just because you can use it as an improv seed.

And you'd be right...

Except instead of playing an iconic object you're playing a human character with motives, attitudes, and objectives. And instead of cards representing property or money you have cards that describe a situation and present a dramatic choice. And instead of going around in a circle until everyone else runs out of money, you have a definitive MECHANICALLY ENFORCED narrative structure with Exposition, Rising Tension, and Climax.

Nice try though