As much as I love the HERO system and am curious about Gurps I am still looking for my perfect RPGheartbreaker game. One which would be a simpler version of GURPS or HERO. Something less granular but still a Universal RPG point buy system.
I'd prefer a non d20 system, as I already own the d20 Modern books from WotC and they were quite good. I've already got that covered.
I am looking for suggestions/opinions from the forum members on games I could check out that might fit this bill.
Savage Worlds (I know the sys well but I can't let go of the fact that stats don't effect skills)
Tri-Stat
d6 (The old West End Games system)
ORE (One Role Engine that powers "Wild Talents" & "Godlike")
FATE (I own the newest ver but it's SJW roots make me feel dirty even opening it now)
Masterworks (The old "Torg" engine that looks like it's available again from PreciseIntermedia)
Basic Role-Playing (by Chaosium)
Unisystem (Eden studios game engine for "All Flesh must be Eaten")
* Note: I am not looking for information about the above games per say as I am semi-familiar with them all, that is unless you are well versed with any of them and want to toot their horns.
While it's d20 at its roots, Mutants & Masterminds may be what you're looking for. If you don't mind abandoned systems, Fuzion was intended as a simpler crossbreed of HERO and Interlock, and I believe the Action! System evolved from that, so they might be worth checking out.
Damn your right (Mutants & Masterminds), I even own the new edition books. Dunno why that hadn't dawned on me that they were an option.
Thanks for bringing it up.
Oh now that you say d20 "True20" was pretty cool from the bit I read of it, and was generic'ish.
Well, GURPS Lite (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite/) is the obvious answer.
A more helpful answer would be Heroes & Other Worlds (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=26102), a moderned-up clone of The Fantasy Trip, which you probably know was the simpler forerunner to GURPS. It's just fantasy, though.
Dark City Games (http://www.darkcitygames.com/) has three ultra-lite rule sets also based on TFT:
Legends of the Ancient World (fantasy)
Legends of Time and Space (Sci-Fi)
Legends of the Untamed West (Old West)
They're still genre specific, but you've got a few choices at least.
EDIT-Or were you looking for information specifically on the games you mentioned in your post? If so, then forget I said anything.
You can also look into Precis Intermedia's GenreDiversion 3e (http://www.pigames.net/store/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=455)
Unisytem (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse.php?filters=0_0_10097_0_0&term=unisystem) (I prefer classic). d10 roll. Point buy. Universal. It doesn't have a real "universal" book however, you have to cobble things together from various sources like Witchcraft, All Flesh Must Be Eaten, Conspiracy X, Terra Primate and Armageddon. It's a simple system and plays fast.
OVA (2nd edition) (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/133493/OVA-The-Anime-RolePlaying-Game) is a HERO-eqsue game with a simple resolution system. It's light and fun. It is anime-focused, but you can file off those serial numbers and run almost anything.
Tri-Stat (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/368/TriStat-dX-Core-System-RolePlaying-Game?term=tri-stat&it=1) is an older game that powered a supers game and several off-shoot generic multi-setting books. I find it a tad wonky, but it had a decent following. You can't beat free. :-)
It also spawned the Big Eyes Small Mouth (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/24482/BESM-Big-Eyes-Small-Mouth-3rd-Edition?term=tri-stat&it=1) (BESM) RPG, the 3rd edition being the newest iteration.
All these systems are somewhat lighter than Hero/GURPS.
Quote from: RunningLaser;808479You can also look into Precis Intermedia's GenreDiversion 3e (http://www.pigames.net/store/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=455)
That was going to be my suggestion... it's a system I'm just now discovering but seems to bring a lot of GURPS' mindset in a less maze-like package.
Of the games you list it thing Basic Roleplaying is probably the closest to a less crunchy GURPS. They are both quite solidly in the realistic simulation tradition. The rest, while fine games, tend to be more cinematic, action orientated games and use some form of Hero or Fate Point metagame mechanic.
Thank you Technomancer
And I love the forum pic. Is that from the Buck Rogers TV show, the Draconians?
I'd say something like FUDGE or D6 would be best if you're trying to avoid complex systems. With either, all you really have to do is make a character sheet with whatever you think is important to your game and you're done. If players want cool powers, say it costs X amount and have them write it down on their sheet under "COOL POWERS". Both systems are beyond flexible, but without much overhead. Now, of course, you can add whatever sorts of complexities you want, but if you're going that route it'd probably be easier to use HERO or GURPS as that's already spelled out for you.
Most of the D6 stuff is free (http://games.whitesaber.com/west-end-games-open-d6.html), anyway, and easy as f to run. I am a huge fan of Star Wars 1st edition, so I ignored a lot of crap in those books, but they're pretty great resources.
Years ago, there was a Fuzion hybrid of HERO/Interlock called "Champions: The New Millennium," which allowed you to use the power creation system from HERO if you needed it, but otherwise was wholly self-contained and simple. We used it for years, spectacularly. I'm sure you can find it cheap at some second-hand shops or elsewhere. I loved it.
The old school answer is The Fantasy Trip (assuming you are interested in renaissance or earlier historical or fantasy gaming).
EABA is another universal system, published by BTRC. It's a single, fairly slim volume (320 pages) and more stripped back than either GURPS or Hero.
I have only read it, not had the chance to play it. It has some interesting features, like the fact that rounds double in length with every additional round. All advantages or powers are built from a small set of basic components.
Quote from: Future Villain Band;808488Years ago, there was a Fuzion hybrid of HERO/Interlock called "Champions: The New Millennium," which allowed you to use the power creation system from HERO if you needed it, but otherwise was wholly self-contained and simple. We used it for years, spectacularly. I'm sure you can find it cheap at some second-hand shops or elsewhere. I loved it.
I was so pissed when the HERO sale to Fuzion happened I boycotted that edition of HERO/Interlock. But perhaps I was to hasty in doing that.
I'll see if I can find an copy of the old book somewhere online and check it out.
-------------------------
Looks like the Interlock system lives on as the"Action! (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/16761/Action-System-Core-Rules-Full-Version?it=1)" RPG by Gold Rush Games
Quote from: Future Villain Band;808488... Fuzion hybrid of HERO/Interlock called "Champions: The New Millennium," ...
Called... Fuzion! :-)
Quote from: Gwarh;808495...But perhaps I was to hasty in doing that. ..
It's not a bad system. You can still find all kinds of free and paid stuff out there for it.
Quote from: Gwarh;808495Looks like the Interlock system lives on as the"Action! (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/16761/Action-System-Core-Rules-Full-Version?it=1)" RPG by Gold Rush Games
Spiritual successor perhaps. It had influence. So did GURPS. It is missing a powers system. However, I found using the Atomik (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/32/Precis-Intermedia/subcategory/126_3865/Atomik-Generic-Addons) plugins with Action! to be a pretty decent system combo. Actually, you might want to check out the Atomik add-ons as alternatives for a lighter powers/magic/creature method and tack on your favorite rules-light base.
Quote from: Larsdangly;808490The old school answer is The Fantasy Trip (assuming you are interested in renaissance or earlier historical or fantasy gaming).
Not entirely fantasy/medieval. Dark City Games has a number of Fantasy Trip clones that are set in other eras - at least one for space, and one for the wild west
http://www.darkcitygames.com/
Quote from: Gwarh;808464As much as I love the HERO system and am curious about Gurps I am still looking for my perfect RPGheartbreaker game. One which would be a simpler version of GURPS or HERO. Something less granular but still a Universal RPG point buy system.
I'd prefer a non d20 system, as I already own the d20 Modern books from WotC and they were quite good. I've already got that covered.
I am looking for suggestions/opinions from the forum members on games I could check out that might fit this bill.
Savage Worlds (I know the sys well but I can't let go of the fact that stats don't effect skills)
Tri-Stat
d6 (The old West End Games system)
ORE (One Role Engine that powers "Wild Talents" & "Godlike")
FATE (I own the newest ver but it's SJW roots make me feel dirty even opening it now)
Masterworks (The old "Torg" engine that looks like it's available again from PreciseIntermedia)
Basic Role-Playing (by Chaosium)
Unisystem (Eden studios game engine for "All Flesh must be Eaten")
* Note: I am not looking for information about the above games per say as I am semi-familiar with them all, that is unless you are well versed with any of them and want to toot their horns.
Well there is the Fantasy Trip
Or their modern incarnations
Legends of the Ancient World (http://www.darkcitygames.com/index.php) Which also have Time and Space along with Untamed West.
Heroes and other worlds (http://heroworlds.blogspot.com/).
Fudge (http://www.fudgerpg.com/)
Which is definitely a GURPS Lite. However it is presented as a toolkit to make your own RPG similar to Fate. But understand it not Fate but a generic RPG in tradition of Hero and GURPS but much much lighter on the mechanics.
For an fantasy implementation. There is Hack and Slash (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/23741/HacknSlash-Fantasy-Roleplay--Gamemasters-Edition?term=Hack+and+Slash&it=1) over on RPGNow.
Quote from: Gwarh;808486Thank you Technomancer
And I love the forum pic. Is that from the Buck Rogers TV show, the Draconians?
That is Sid Haig as Dragos from the show Jason of Star Command, which had similar style and production values as Buck Rogers but was not as good (also starred James "Mr. Scott" Doohan). The show was kind of lame but Dragos was pretty awesome.
Its not point buy, and it may be way lighter than your looking for but there's Risus (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/risus.htm) (and its free:))
Re. Fuzion; it's essentially HERO with addition and subtraction instead of multiplication and division. So much easier to do things on the fly.
Quote from: Soylent Green;808482Of the games you list it thing Basic Roleplaying is probably the closest to a less crunchy GURPS. They are both quite solidly in the realistic simulation tradition. The rest, while fine games, tend to be more cinematic, action orientated games and use some form of Hero or Fate Point metagame mechanic.
BRP pretty much serves that purpose for me... I like GURPS but it's been a long while since I looked to run it. BRP doesn't have advantages/disadvantages... which is a solid plus IMO... but that's why BRP didn't leap to mind for me as an answer to the OP's situation, because of that difference.
Quote from: Simlasa;808523BRP pretty much serves that purpose for me...
I agree - BRP (Gold Book) is the one to pick up and use for any setting, skewed towards a feel of verisimilitude rather than narrative/cinematic play. No fuss and new players grok it very quickly.
Quote from: Gwarh;808486Thank you Technomancer
And I love the forum pic. Is that from the Buck Rogers TV show, the Draconians?
Sid Haig as Dragos from Jason of Star Command
Dark Stars TFT-esque system is viable. And free.
BASH is a great game that strongly reminds me of a simpler HERO system.
Here's a review: http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14741.phtml
Well worth a look!
Quote from: Future Villain Band;808488Years ago, there was a Fuzion hybrid of HERO/Interlock called "Champions: The New Millennium," which allowed you to use the power creation system from HERO if you needed it, but otherwise was wholly self-contained and simple. We used it for years, spectacularly. I'm sure you can find it cheap at some second-hand shops or elsewhere. I loved it.
It was rather terrible, actually (or maybe I'm just having bad flashbacks from the pseudo-Liefeld art). The principal issue was that it didn't really have its own power creation system in the corebook, instead obliging people to convert the rules from Champions 4th Edition, which by that point was out of print, thus eliminating much of the point of a new game.
But as others have pointed out, Fuzion had its strengths, notably a target-based rather than penalty-based skill system. C:NM might have gotten a better reaction if they'd done it right the first time. :p
JG
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;808466While it's d20 at its roots, Mutants & Masterminds may be what you're looking for.
Yeah, that was kind of my take away from it.
M&M still has most of the crunch of HERO/Champions, but with simpler maths.
I happen to like the old Tri-Stat
Silver Age Sentinels, but the book is OOP (and the company long gone now).
Quote from: Novastar;808597I happen to like the old Tri-Stat Silver Age Sentinels, but the book is OOP (and the company long gone now).
By the magic of the Internet:
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/382/Silver-Age-Sentinels-Standard-TriStat-Edition
Has anyone looked at HeroQuest Second Edition (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/15/15574.phtml)?
Quote from: Certified;808636Has anyone looked at HeroQuest Second Edition (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/15/15574.phtml)?
Yes. It's firmly in the story game camp, with user defined traits and conflict resolution rather than task resolution.
It would be a very different play experience compared to either GURPS or Hero.
I had heroquest 2nd, but never played it. If I recall right, it was more of a scene resolution used than a task resolution.
What game mechanic were you after? Bell-curve die rolls or percentile? Hit points? Hero points? Leveling up is allowed?
When someone asks for GURPS or HERO analogs I'd lean towards the qualifications being multi-genre, d6s only, points based, 3-18 stat range, and tactical combat.
Sure you can hit any one or two of those but the more you're hitting the closer you'll be to pleasing the OP.
Fudge is still the best bet for something like GURPS.
If you are looking for a point-build-ish Fantasy RPG, I highly recommend the free game Warrior, Rogue & Mage by Stargazer Games. "WRyM" is surprisingly good, and I am not a fan of point-buy games after we OD'd on Hero back in the 80s.
I sold my playtest copy of Fantasy Hero a few years ago on eBay. Before I sold it, I re-read it again and I was surprised how cool I was with point-buy way back then.
http://www.stargazergames.eu/games/warrior-rogue-mage/
WRyM also has lots of free supplements too.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;808666What game mechanic were you after? Bell-curve die rolls or percentile? Hit points? Hero points? Leveling up is allowed?
All of the above are fine with me, I'm not married to a particular mechanic.
Well, there's Capitan Alatriste, which is a spectacular game, but you'd need to read Spanish for it...
Quote from: RPGPundit;809859Well, there's Capitan Alatriste, which is a spectacular game, but you'd need to read Spanish for it...
As a fan of generic systems but not a reader of Spanish: what makes it stand out?
The D6 System formerly by West end games is simpler than GURPS and all of the core books for Fantasy, Space and Modern are free to take here (//www.polgarusgames.com)
There is a ton of support for it as well as several other interesting setting books you can buy.
Quote from: James Gillen;808581It was rather terrible, actually (or maybe I'm just having bad flashbacks from the pseudo-Liefeld art). The principal issue was that it didn't really have its own power creation system in the corebook, instead obliging people to convert the rules from Champions 4th Edition, which by that point was out of print, thus eliminating much of the point of a new game.
But as others have pointed out, Fuzion had its strengths, notably a target-based rather than penalty-based skill system. C:NM might have gotten a better reaction if they'd done it right the first time. :p
JG
You're having flashbacks. It has the same power creation system as HERO, but uses addition/subtraction rather than multiplication/division for power building.
Quote from: Gwarh;808883All of the above are fine with me, I'm not married to a particular mechanic.
Do you want to build powers as in HERO or not? There are plenty of universal systems, not all of them can do that.
Quote from: apparition13;810853Do you want to build powers as in HERO or not? There are plenty of universal systems, not all of them can do that.
Ideally yes I would like some sort of power creation system to make it a true RPG Toolkit. But with that sort of thing comes a tradeoff with complexity and worse, making it overly complicated.
Maybe Mutants & Masterminds 3E would be a good choice as it certainly has power creation in it.
I am hardly the
BESM fanboy anymore that I was in 2000s, but this one still stands:
(http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/14569864/images/1302763346259.jpg)
The main difference between
GURPS and
BESM is that
GURPS is firmly in simulation territory while in
BESM everything is effect based - the source of the attribute ("feat" in
BESM lingo) "massive damage" can be anything the player and GM can agree upon.
Quote from: trechriron;808480Tri-Stat (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/368/TriStat-dX-Core-System-RolePlaying-Game?term=tri-stat&it=1) is an older game that powered a supers game and several off-shoot generic multi-setting books. I find it a tad wonky, but it had a decent following. You can't beat free. :-)
It also spawned the Big Eyes Small Mouth (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/24482/BESM-Big-Eyes-Small-Mouth-3rd-Edition?term=tri-stat&it=1) (BESM) RPG, the 3rd edition being the newest iteration.
Actually,
BESM spawned a super hero game,
Silver Age Sentinels, which in turn spawned the generic version,
TriStat dX.
The 3rd edition of
BESM is a weird case as it changed the basic roll mechanism from 2d roll under stat/skill to 2d+stat/skill vs. difficulty.
Quote from: RunningLaser;808479You can also look into Precis Intermedia's GenreDiversion 3e (http://www.pigames.net/store/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=455)
I remember checking an earlier incarnation of
GenreDiversion, and I was baffled by the fact that the characters have 4 mental/social stats and only 1 physical stat - "Fitness" covers everything from STR to CON to DEX.
Made me think that Fitness would be the über stat for adventurous fantasy games with lots of combat and physical hazards.
(Coincidently, this is what eventually alienated me from
BESM's Body/Mind/Soul stats. This, and the fact that monsters had to be built like characters, which was a PITA to prep.)
Another free (and open source) generic system that I very much like but hardly ever hear or read about is Ashok Desai's
Myriad.
It has been compared to WEG
d6 but I feel it's more a mix of DP9's
Silhouette and
FUDGE, in as it's a d6 pool, point buy, toolkit system, but a lot more focused than
FUDGE.
Also, in
Silhouette the skill determines the d6 pool size, while in
Myriad it's the attribute, which feels more intuitive.
It has a "SFX" system (powers, spells, psionics,...) that is fueled by rolling 6s ("burning sixes"). I'd very much like to hear from someone who played a longer campaign whether that part is as wonky as it sounds.
Available for free (http://www.lulu.com/shop/ashok-desai/myriad-rpg-system/ebook/product-307787.html) or PoD (Extended Edition) (http://www.lulu.com/shop/ashok-desai/myriad-extended-edition/paperback/product-529253.html).
Review (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12342.phtml).
Quote from: dbm;809866As a fan of generic systems but not a reader of Spanish: what makes it stand out?
Technically, Alatriste is not generic. It's a 17th-century non-magic swashbuckling game based on the novels of the same name, that very obviously adapts from GURPS.
Quote from: RPGPundit;811658Technically, Alatriste is not generic. It's a 17th-century non-magic swashbuckling game based on the novels of the same name, that very obviously adapts from GURPS.
So, is it the swashbuckling support which makes it spectacular, or another aspect?
Quote from: dbm;811940So, is it the swashbuckling support which makes it spectacular, or another aspect?
The swordfighting rules are really excellent, but mostly its how the game is tightly-crafted and careful re-making of the GURPS rules to fit the specific setting.
Quote from: RPGPundit;812393The swordfighting rules are really excellent, but mostly its how the game is tightly-crafted and careful re-making of the GURPS rules to fit the specific setting.
Cool, thanks. Sounds like a classic "specific instance of a generic system". It's just a shame SJG are adamant that they won't produce such book themselves. The closest they get are the Action / Dungeon Fantasy / Monster Hunters lines.