Just reading this Pundy's blog (http://weblog.xanga.com/RPGpundit/677813204/item.html) made me wonder if our (or your, because Pundy apparently count me as RPG hating swine) is really so fragile it can't snand any change in it's norms. Do you think, that RPGs are endangered and they need our protection? And why?
Sort of.
Having a hobby attract creepy weirdos never helps the hobby. It may or may not harm the hobby, but it never helps it.
The Maid rpg reminds me of that guy at the con who wished aloud he could grope random women's breasts, and some stupid woman said, "you can grope mine", and then the thing spread to the whole fucking con, with women ending up having to wear badges saying "yes, you can ask to touch" or "no, you can't." (Just search around LiveJournal for talks about this.)
This is not good for the hobby. It's roleplaying, not Lonely Horny Geeks Club.
I think the Forge produces plenty of things that aren't really RPGs, but I also think Pundit is a little nuts.
If nothing else, he's never boring.
Thing I don't think the Forge realizes is that most people want mainstream, because most people just want fun with their RPGs - Not to be revolutionary or think deep thoughts.
Thing that does annoy a lot of people are pretentious people who think 'killing monsters' is all there is to D&D - And think that there's something wrong with that kind of play.
I had more, but I'm tired and not feeling well. In any case, the norms are doing well.
Oh, yeah - Something else. The Maid RPG is in no way revolutionary or anything. Far as I can tell, it's a creepy wierdo game for creepy wierdos.
And anything is fragile, if you hit it the right way.
The hobby will be that fragile if the preponderance of fringe interests being made into RPGs by certain types gain ground, yes.
I'm being exceedingly nice in my use of language there.
Imagine the scene - GenCon 2011. Demos across the floor, some press presence. Oh, what's this? 12 demos where folk are doing some rather strange stuff? In public? I'll have to write about this wierdness.
Now, you might think that's an exaggeration, and frankly, it is. But it is for this reason that i've constantly 'canvassed' against that other game we all know about. Games that force you into fucked-up territory via the text, actual plays, rules and tone are vastly different to games where that sort of stuff could happen. Add to this the tight focus of storygames and if you decide to focus on a controversial subject, then you have no-where else to go with the material. So why have you chosen that controversial subject? A) Wanting to gain infamy, B) To cover a lack of talent, C) Amorality, D) Cynical marketeering.
Now imagine a con visited by press where we have a game on rape, sodomy & necrophilia, a game on incest (yes, i've seen this discussed) a game on cannibalism (ditto), a game on the holocaust, a game where you play doomed boy scouts, white power fantasies, the game where you roll for penis size and the other far worse stuff. All these games are tightly focussed on their subject matter and leave (despite the defense to the contrary) you little wriggle room when compared to tradional games, to leave that focus aside. You have to make an effort.
I don't want to walk into a mainstream con and find that. I don't want folk who are curious about RPGs to walk into a con and find that. You want that shit? Do it at home away from the rest of the hobby. You don't want 'faux morality' and 'prudish' behaviour in reply to your 'game'- don't post sick details on public message boards.
Quote from: One Horse Town;255794A) Wanting to gain infamy, B) To cover a lack of talent, C) Amorality, D) Cynical marketeering.
I would add E) Being a bit naive, coupled with confusion about what actually constitutes a good game.
Was anyone else unfortunate enough to listen to the live recording of the "game design roundtable", from I think Origins, when it was posted on Fear The Boot a few months ago? It was a classic example of what happens when you have a rather close-knit and similar-minded group of people who somehow convince themselves that something is true. (In this case, narrow focus is good, being controversial is good.) It then becomes dogma.
Quote from: noisms;255798I would add E) Being a bit naive, coupled with confusion about what actually constitutes a good game.
I'd include that in B) ;)
With an eye at 4chan's transgressiveness, I'm waiting for the forgie version of RaHoWa... I can see the blurb now: "Finally, a game that really forces us to identify with 'so-called' racists, allowing gamers to question such concepts as race, power, biology, and identity."
There is no hobby. There are only players.
QuoteIs the hobby really THAT fragile
Is that question of any importance whatsoever? I care about fine games and fine players, but I fight the constant urge to strangle people who say "the hobby".
So die, oh hobby. I will dance on your grave.
One Horse Town: Interesting and maybe true, but look at other media... for example movies. We have a lot of movies about hollocaust, sodomy, cannibalism, doomed teenagers, unwanted pregnancy, drugs and quite a lot of porn and borderline porn. Still, some of these, for example movies about holocaust are praised by critics and won a lot of prizes and mojority of what you would call normal people think, that these are grat movies, not misery porn for pretentious sickfuck.
So, are RPGs inherently different from other media?
Also, I don't think, that protecting RPGs from anything serious (for example murder) or sexual (for example sex) in order to make it "light non-sexual hobby" will do much good, because a lot of people who think, that "light and non-sexual" means "stupid and castrated".
Quote from: Fritzs;255807One Horse Town: Interesting and maybe true, but look at other media... for example movies. We have a lot of movies about hollocaust, sodomy, cannibalism, doomed teenagers, unwanted pregnancy, drugs and quite a lot of porn and borderline porn. Still, some of these, for example movies about holocaust are praised by critics and won a lot of prizes and mojority of what you would call normal people think, that these are grat movies, not misery porn for pretentious sickfuck.
So, are RPGs inherently different from other media?
You see, this argument crops up a lot in these discussions. You picked the wrong example media. You aren't the protagonist when you are watching a film or reading a book.
Over in the Maid thread on RPGnet, someone used the other argument that crops up in these discussions - the subject of unleasant content in more mainstream game products. The example he used was a section in Delta Green about a doctor studying insanity. He did this by inflicting insanity on his subjects, including subjecting them to gang-rape. People always make stretches in logic when defending shit content or games. In Delta Green are you expected to play the doctor or the victim at the table? No. Is the central mechanic of the game plugged in to playing that doctor or that victim. No.
Unpleasant content, or that which might be considered uncomfortable to some people, can crop up in any game on the face of the planet.
My plainly stated objection (over many threads and a year or so now) is to games designed to force those situations on you. There is no merit to it, it makes me wonder what the hell the designer was thinking and what he wanted to achieve - which again leads to the 4 points above about publishing controversial games. It's weak, it's no substitute for making your product stand out for the proper reasons, it's cynical, and says a lot about the author.
I just find it depressing to find all this kneejerk moralism in a scene that was once such a targeted victim of kneejerk moralism. It's like the christian right ended up infiltrating gaming instead of trying to shut it down.
Quote from: walkerp;255811I just find it depressing to find all this kneejerk moralism in a scene that was once such a targeted victim of kneejerk moralism. It's like the christian right ended up infiltrating gaming instead of trying to shut it down.
This is the other weak thing that gets brought up in these discussions. Because there is an objection, it is 'knee-jerk moralism'.
Have an opinion? Express it. Have no opinion but one on the opinion of others? Button it.
Quote from: One Horse TownYou see, this argument crops up a lot in these discussions. You picked the wrong example media. You aren't the protagonist when you are watching a film or reading a book.
Ahem... majority of games mention, that character=/=player. Let's say, there is scene, where my character is subject to gang-rape experiment of that doctor from delta green you mentioned. It's not like I am being raped, it's just happening to non-existent character. While it's not like reading it in a book, it's somewhat similar to writting a book with that particular scene. Is anyone who ever, for example, write a book with "moraly questionable" content (like: murder, holocaust, doomed people, sex, maid uniforms) doing it because A, B, C or D...? And if the answer is yes, doesn't it say something about people who read his/her book...?
Quote from: walkerpI just find it depressing to find all this kneejerk moralism in a scene that was once such a targeted victim of kneejerk moralism. It's like the christian right ended up infiltrating gaming instead of trying to shut it down.
It happen all the time... once the common enemy disappears people start searching for next one to fill the gap and usually ends up "finding" one in their own ranks.
Quote from: Fritzs;255813Is anyone who ever, for example, write a book with "moraly questionable" content (like: murder, holocaust, doomed people, sex, maid uniforms) doing it because A, B, C or D...? And if the answer is yes, doesn't it say something about people who read his/her book...?
Not necessarily, and this is very central to everything i'm saying, so listen carefully. The author of the book has a responsibility in creating his work. He can write those scenes (and actors play them) in many different ways. He might be trying to get a point across, he might be making a commentary, or he might be doing it for shock value or 'titilation' alone - those are called exploitation movies or 'crap' movies & books.What happens is guided by the author. It is a non-interactive medium.
In an interactive medium such as RPGs, the author has no such control as to how his creation will eventually be used - therefore, the buck stops with him as to how the tone of the game turns out. If you are trying to guide the players around the table, then you get the 'system matters' crowd - they try to influence your play by introducing controlling mechanisms to shape it at the table to the outcomes they are shooting for. If those outcomes are fucked up, it's the authors responsibility.
Quote from: One Horse Town;255812This is the other weak thing that gets brought up in these discussions. Because there is an objection, it is 'knee-jerk moralism'.
It
is an interesting comparison, though. Because some folks who took their religion pretty seriously back in the Eighties had heard that
D&D included evil magicians and summoned demons, they arrived to the conclusion that it must be denounced as an artifact of "satanic devil worship." Now actual gamers who are only familiar with
Maid from forum discussions such as this seem to be talking about how it must just as obviously be a game about "underage maid rape" because it involves (possibly) underage characters and (optional) seduction rules. The whole thing is blown out of all proportion in exactly the same fashion.
Quote from: GrimGent;255815It is an interesting comparison, though. Because some folks who took their religion pretty seriously back in the Eighties had heard that D&D included evil magicians and summoned demons, they arrived to the conclusion that it must be denounced as an artifact of "satanic devil worship." Now actual gamers who are only familiar with Maid from forum discussions such as this seem to be talking about how it must just as obviously be a game about "underage maid rape" because it involves (possibly) underage characters and (optional) seduction rules. The whole thing is blown out of all proportion in exactly the same fashion.
I should point out (as i did in the original Maid thread here) that i don't include that game in what i'm talking about here. Not for me and a little creepy, to my eyes, but not the same thing at all. Well, the translation anyhow.
One Horse Town: Author of RPG is only providing tool, the actuall creative process starts at the table, among the players... we don't usually call gun industry responsible for murders commited by gun.
Quote from: Fritzs;255820One Horse Town: Author of RPG is only providing tool, the actuall creative process starts at the table, among the players... we don't usually call gun industry responsible for murders commited by gun.
Try again.
Edit; I keep forgetting this is your second language. I'll distill what i'm saying down even further. "If the outcome of play at the table is constrained by the limits on outcome that the author has included (positive reinforcement, mechanics driving a particularly focussed upon play element or omnipresent theme, etc) - the author is responsible for those results. If the outcome of play at the table is not constrained by limits from the author - the players are responsible for the results."
To me, that sums up the difference between system matters guys and most tradional games. Neither is objectively better or worse than the other. But what you
do with your work and the outcomes it promotes are another matter. Notice, that by mechanics, i do not simply mean resolution mechanics, but specifically those elements meant to encourage certain behaviour and outcomes at the table.
Quote from: Fritzs;255790Just reading this Pundy's blog (http://weblog.xanga.com/RPGpundit/677813204/item.html) made me wonder if our (or your, because Pundy apparently count me as RPG hating swine) is really so fragile it can't snand any change in it's norms. Do you think, that RPGs are endangered and they need our protection? And why?
Unfortunately, I cannot read the current Pundit blog entries. The strange color choice of some kind of orange text on blacl is too rough on my eyes.
Pundit, it world be REALLY nice if you could change the current color settings on the blog.
- Ed C.
Quote from: One Horse TownIn an interactive medium such as RPGs, the author has no such control as to how his creation will eventually be used - therefore, the buck stops with him as to how the tone of the game turns out.
In an tool industry, such as hammer-making, the company owner has no control as how his tool will eventually be used-driving the nail or crushing the skull. Of course if it wasn't hammer but guns, one can predict they will be used for killing people, but still, it's the one who pulled the trigger, who is responsible, not the one who made the gun.
While system does matter to some degree (to use the tool example, gun is batter at killing people than hammer, but it's quite hard to drive the nail with it) in the end it's the players responsibility, not the authors.
Quote from: One Horse TownThe author of the book has a responsibility in creating his work. He can write those scenes (and actors play them) in many different ways. He might be trying to get a point across, he might be making a commentary, or he might be doing it for shock value or 'titilation' alone - those are called exploitation movies or 'crap' movies & books.What happens is guided by the author. It is a non-interactive medium.
Something, the author has no control over is how, the audience interprets his work. While we might agree, that, there is some common things, that everyone (or wast majority) must see, still there is a lot opened to interpretation, so it is perfectly possible, that while the author was making a commentary, the audience might read it as something made just for shock value.
Koltar: Just copy it and paste it into blank txt file using notepad. It's not the most professional solution of these problems, but it's fast and it works...
It's worth pointing out that the rape example is a poor choice for showing the IC/OOC divide. Raping PCs is an infamous way to break up a group. I play in a group that's comfortable with a fairly high level of grit and nastiness, including rape. While none of us are too bothered by it, some of the guys have had problems over the years with bystanders or sit-in players taking it the wrong way. One dude's girlfriend was pissed off at him for a week or so after she walked in midway while his evil PC was raping some NPC, frex. We're now much more careful about how we present the game when there are non-players around (We also play in a slightly more private setting - a bachelor apartment instead of a jointly-owned apartment or house).
Quote from: One Horse Town;255821I'll distill what i'm saying down even further. "If the outcome of play at the table is constrained by the limits on outcome that the author has included (positive reinforcement, mechanics driving a particularly focussed upon play element or omnipresent theme, etc) - the author is responsible for those results. If the outcome of play at the table is not constrained by limits from the author - the players are responsible for the results."
To me, that sums up the difference between system matters guys and most tradional games. Neither is objectively better or worse than the other. But what you do with your work and the outcomes it promotes are another matter. Notice, that by mechanics, i do not simply mean resolution mechanics, but specifically those elements meant to encourage certain behaviour and outcomes at the table.
I'd basically agree with that -- though to be clear, it's not like traditional games never encourage certain behavior. But this is quite different from RPGPundit's argument in his blog. His argument is that (1) story games are increasingly sexualizing RPGs; and (2) that sexualizing a hobby will lead to its being reviled.
Are you also saying that any sexualized material in RPGs is bad? If not, what RPGs are you saying are bad?
I'd disagree with both of Pundit's points. Based on my experience, if I pick up a random traditional RPG and a random story game, I'm about equally likely to find mildly sexualized material (i.e. racy pictures, a seduction skill); and also about equally likely to find rare actual references to sex.
Moreover, some of my favorite RPGs are sexualized -- like the James Bond 007 RPG, Teenagers from Outer Space, and Macho Women With Guns. I do disapprove of a lot of sexualization, but it's not that I find
any sexualization bad. It can be badly done, but it's not inherently bad.
Quote from: One Horse Town;255794The hobby will be that fragile if the preponderance of fringe interests being made into RPGs by certain types gain ground, yes.
(http://www.hinterwelt.com/images/squirrels/squirrelcover200.gif)
Quote from: One Horse Town;255794Now, you might think that's an exaggeration, and frankly, it is. But it is for this reason that i've constantly 'canvassed' against that other game we all know about. Games that force you into fucked-up territory via the text, actual plays, rules and tone are vastly different to games where that sort of stuff could happen. Add to this the tight focus of storygames and if you decide to focus on a controversial subject, then you have no-where else to go with the material.
(http://www.hinterwelt.com/Squirrels/FreedomCover-Front.gif)
Quote from: One Horse Town;255794So why have you chosen that controversial subject? A) Wanting to gain infamy, B) To cover a lack of talent, C) Amorality, D) Cynical marketeering.
E) All of the above.
Quote from: One Horse Town;255794Now imagine a con visited by press where we have a game on rape, sodomy & necrophilia, a game on incest (yes, i've seen this discussed) a game on cannibalism (ditto), a game on the holocaust, a game where you play doomed boy scouts, white power fantasies, the game where you roll for penis size and the other far worse stuff like squirrels. All these games are tightly focussed on their subject matter and leave (despite the defense to the contrary) you little wriggle room when compared to tradional games, to leave that focus aside. You have to make an effort.
Corrected your typo.
Quote from: One Horse Town;255794I don't want to walk into a mainstream con and find that. I don't want folk who are curious about RPGs to walk into a con and find that. You want that shit? Do it at home away from the rest of the hobby. You don't want 'faux morality' and 'prudish' behaviour in reply to your 'game'- don't post sick details on public message boards.
(http://www.hinterwelt.com/squirrels/AhoyCover200.gif)
Cabin-squirrel.
Bill
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;255791The Maid rpg reminds me of that guy at the con who wished aloud he could grope random women's breasts, and some stupid woman said, "you can grope mine", and then the thing spread to the whole fucking con, with women ending up having to wear badges saying "yes, you can ask to touch" or "no, you can't." (Just search around LiveJournal for talks about this.)
Was he a madman...
or a genius?(edit: just joking - I don't think it was actually a good idea).
Roleplaying has always been a haven for dorks and social misfits, and it always will. Chase them away and you kill the industry, because people with "real lives" and girlfriends usually have better things to do with their time then pretend to be Legolas, Lancelot, and Merlin killing Smaug.
Don't game with them if you don't like them, but if you think that gaming can survive without their sweaty palms and allowance money, you're just a tad naive.
Quote from: GrimGent;255815...because it involves (possibly) underage characters and (optional) seduction rules.
Wait...what? Really?
Quote from: Age of Fable;255848Wait...what? Really?
What, haven't you been following the whole furore over the "Likes Them Young" trait or the brief bit in the example of play about a ten-year-old maid being humiliated by her master? Anyway, the point I was making is that while the game may include either of those things (underage characters and seduction rules), there's no necessary connection between them in play.
All this is really dumb. After all the Elmore, Caldwell and Mongoose art is there any doubt that this hobby isn't sexualized ? Let's not forget Exalted....wait nearly any White Wolf game. And still the hobby just keeps humming along. I mean really, does anyone here honestly think that the storygame crowd or the Forge with their games that have zero appeal to the majority of gamers will have any affect on this hobby ? Most times it's gamers themselves that give the hobby a bad name and not the games they play.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: HinterWelt;255841(http://www.hinterwelt.com/images/squirrels/squirrelcover200.gif)
(http://www.hinterwelt.com/Squirrels/FreedomCover-Front.gif)
E) All of the above.
Corrected your typo.
(http://www.hinterwelt.com/squirrels/AhoyCover200.gif)
Cabin-squirrel.
Bill
Dude. You just gone done D) ;) Luckily squirrels aren't that controversial.
Quote from: jhkim;255839I'd basically agree with that -- though to be clear, it's not like traditional games never encourage certain behavior.
Which is why i limited myself to saying "most." I'm not setting this up just as a system matters vs trad thing, here, i ain't the pundido.
QuoteBut this is quite different from RPGPundit's argument in his blog. His argument is that (1) story games are increasingly sexualizing RPGs; and (2) that sexualizing a hobby will lead to its being reviled.
Are you also saying that any sexualized material in RPGs is bad? If not, what RPGs are you saying are bad?
You are right, it is different (although this thread wasn't started with the express purpose stated that this was the sole subject). If you've read my points, i should hope you know what i'm saying and about what games. If the RPG in question forces you into an outcome at the table and that outcome is dodgy at best, and screwed, at worst - i am saying it is the author's responsibility that play got there.
I have to say, I'm very impressed with the way people have responded to Fritzs' stupid (loaded) question. Well done, all!
RPGPundit
Quote from: walkerp;255811I just find it depressing to find all this kneejerk moralism in a scene that was once such a targeted victim of kneejerk moralism. It's like the christian right ended up infiltrating gaming instead of trying to shut it down.
Geek social fallacy: "because we were once unfairly picked on, we can't possibly now pick on anyone else, even if they deserve to be!"
Bullshit.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Fritzs;255813It happen all the time... once the common enemy disappears people start searching for next one to fill the gap and usually ends up "finding" one in their own ranks.
You ARE the enemy. You are not from "our ranks". You never were. You and the filth that are like you have never had any sincere interest in doing right by this hobby. You're here to aggrandize your own undeserved egos, and you don't give a fuck if you destroy gaming to do it.
You are Swine. You have nothing to do with a regular gamer, you have nothing in common with me, and you deserve only to be shown how much of a fuckhead you are at the point of my knife of Truth.
RPGPundit
Quote from: GrimGent;255815It is an interesting comparison, though. Because some folks who took their religion pretty seriously back in the Eighties had heard that D&D included evil magicians and summoned demons, they arrived to the conclusion that it must be denounced as an artifact of "satanic devil worship." Now actual gamers who are only familiar with Maid from forum discussions such as this seem to be talking about how it must just as obviously be a game about "underage maid rape" because it involves (possibly) underage characters and (optional) seduction rules. The whole thing is blown out of all proportion in exactly the same fashion.
No, not exactly. One key difference is that those criticizing Maid are people on the INSIDE of the hobby.
And of course, those pushing Maid (and all the other questionable games) are people who are really on the outside of the hobby trying to infiltrate it.
So a more apt comparison in all this would be the time those Religious Conservatives made an RPG about memorizing bible verses. Its a group of ideological fanatics trying to change RPGs, and normal RPG folk saying "no".
RPGPundit
Quote from: Koltar;255823Unfortunately, I cannot read the current Pundit blog entries. The strange color choice of some kind of orange text on blacl is too rough on my eyes.
Pundit, it world be REALLY nice if you could change the current color settings on the blog.
- Ed C.
Check on Jan. 1st(to 3rd). I change my look once a year.
RPGPundit
Quote from: jhkim;255839I'd basically agree with that -- though to be clear, it's not like traditional games never encourage certain behavior. But this is quite different from RPGPundit's argument in his blog. His argument is that (1) story games are increasingly sexualizing RPGs; and (2) that sexualizing a hobby will lead to its being reviled.
Are you also saying that any sexualized material in RPGs is bad? If not, what RPGs are you saying are bad?
I'd disagree with both of Pundit's points. Based on my experience, if I pick up a random traditional RPG and a random story game, I'm about equally likely to find mildly sexualized material (i.e. racy pictures, a seduction skill); and also about equally likely to find rare actual references to sex.
Moreover, some of my favorite RPGs are sexualized -- like the James Bond 007 RPG, Teenagers from Outer Space, and Macho Women With Guns. I do disapprove of a lot of sexualization, but it's not that I find any sexualization bad. It can be badly done, but it's not inherently bad.
As usual, you've misinterpreted what I've said. Its not that sexuality itself (or racy pictures, or the like) will lead to the hobby being reviled. Its that deviant or anti-social sexuality introduced in Forger games will attract deviants and social-retards who will in turn made the hobby reviled.
We ALL know that we aren't talking about bikini chainmail babes here, or James Bond innuendo. We're talking about 10 year old girls being raped with broomsticks and cabin boys being violated in their neck-holes by pirates.
That's what will get us reviled.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Age of Fable;255848Wait...what? Really?
Yes, really.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;255864And of course, those pushing Maid (and all the other questionable games) are people who are really on the outside of the hobby trying to infiltrate it.
As far as I'm concerned, there is
my hobby and all those other people I don't play with. You, for instance.
And as somebody who associates with 'normal', 'mainstream' people on a regular basis (rather than geekazoids like you), it seems to me that a game like
Poison'd doesn't raise any more eyebrows than a game like
Pendragon.
Quote from: RPGPundit;255866As usual, you've misinterpreted what I've said. Its not that sexuality itself (or racy pictures, or the like) will lead to the hobby being reviled. Its that deviant or anti-social sexuality introduced in Forger games will attract deviants and social-retards who will in turn made the hobby reviled.
We ALL know that we aren't talking about bikini chainmail babes here, or James Bond innuendo. We're talking about 10 year old girls being raped with broomsticks and cabin boys being violated in their neck-holes by pirates.
That's what will get us reviled.
RPGPundit
I find it difficult to believe that intelligent people here cannot or will not see this very obvious distinction in this discussion: sexualization of children in any RPG is wrong and will lead to negative attention on gamers and the industry.
In light of my disbelief, I have to assume that these people are trolls, playing devil's advocate, or are Joker disciples.
Quote from: RPGPunditYou ARE the enemy. You are not from "our ranks". You never were. You and the filth that are like you have never had any sincere interest in doing right by this hobby. You're here to aggrandize your own undeserved egos, and you don't give a fuck if you destroy gaming to do it.
You are Swine. You have nothing to do with a regular gamer, you have nothing in common with me, and you deserve only to be shown how much of a fuckhead you are at the point of my knife of Truth.
RPGPundit
Oink!? I feels great to be hated, not as great as being loved for sure, but still it's great feeling, it makes you feel all important and stuff... I am bit scared of your big nasty knife of Truth, but you can't stab me trought internet.
Quote from: Drohem;255871In light of my disbelief, I have to assume that these people are trolls, playing devil's advocate, or are Joker disciples.
I'll take #3. But seriously, folks: society at large doesn't give a shit about 'the industry'. They barely know it exists. Poobutt's War on Swinery is not even an amusing anecdote for most of my friends, it's a blank stare and a change of the subject.
My non-RPG friends make jokes about me going to play sex games on RP night. Let me see, I could whine and say "But that's not what we DOo!". I could laugh nervously and say "Heh, heh, yeah, right!" Or I could wear it like the usual friendly ribbing.
Shortly after I'd begun playing RPGs, we made up rules for penis size, staying power and the like. My friend Martin also made up the 'Syph-monster' (think chancres). It says more about us as teenagers than it does about the game (although the presence of extensive tables does encourage the creation of more tables in my view).
Presently, my meatspace friends tend to be middle-aged, employed, and with children. It's my experience that they are more interested in the small and quirky games than they are in eg RuneQuest, Pendragon or god forbid D&D. YMMV, of course.
Quote from: David R;255850All this is really dumb. After all the Elmore, Caldwell and Mongoose art is there any doubt that this hobby isn't sexualized ? Let's not forget Exalted....wait nearly any White Wolf game.
From the First Fantasy Campaign's (Blackmoor) inclusion of slaves as a pleasure category (female slaves categorized as red or white silk), the magical item Entertainer ("Any jolly you ever wanted, and some that might kill you"), women ("slaves of the appropriate type (left to player)") as one of the special interests gp is spent on before xp is rewarded, and Egg of Coot's creed starting with "Might is Right" and continuing on for some time before going into a summary / fade to black since "the rest of the Creed is a bit too strong for our gentile readers and deal with certain "Breeding priviledges and customs"."
Or stuff like:
(http://www.acaeum.com/ddindexes/setpages/setscans/supp3first.jpg)
Wilderlands and Empire of the Petal Throne (esp. Book of Ebon Bindings).
Quote from: droog;255880Shortly after I'd begun playing RPGs, we made up rules for penis size, staying power and the like. My friend Martin also made up the 'Syph-monster' (think chancres).
:) There must've been hundreds of homebrewed prostitute classes...each one the most hilarious and original thing
ever.
Quote from: Casey777;255881From the First Fantasy Campaign's inclusion of slaves as a pleasure category (female slaves categorized as red or white silk), the magical item Entertainer ("Any jolly you ever wanted, and some that might kill you"), women ("slaves of the appropriate type (left to player)") as one of the special interests gp is spent on before xp is rewarded, and Egg of Coot's creed starting with "Might is Right" and continuing on for some time before going into a summary / fade to black since "the rest of the Creed is a bit too strong for our gentile readers and deal with certain "Breeding priviledges and customs"."...
At least in my experience, there's now a quiet consensus that that stuff is weird and gross.
Quote from: Age of Fable;255882:) There must've been hundreds of homebrewed prostitute classes...each one the most hilarious and original thing ever.
Laugh? We nearly died!
14-YEAR OLD NERD (short of breath from laughing so hard): Oh my God you guys, I'm gonna make a book of rules...about sex!
OTHER NERDS: (much laughter and shouting) That's the best idea ever! Tables for herpes! What if a giant did it with a pixie! You should write that down! (&c)
(the camera pans around the faces at the table. It stops at a crisply smiling JOHN MALKOVICH)
JOHN MALKOVICH: Oh, no need to write it down. (he smiles in a sinister fashion) I'll remember. Come fellows, let us continue our game.
(The camera moves to a notebook in JOHN'S hands, which he's holding under the table, out of sight of the others. Covering an entire page, he writes in a bold hand: 'BOOK OF EROTIC FANTASY')
Someone already beat me to one of the images, but...
(http://www.lotfp.com/images/dump/oldschool.gif)
... looks like sexualization of RPGs began with the very first RPG publication ever...
... and that same publication details the origin of the swine as well! Prophetic!
There is no room for fools that wish to make RPGs into a second Furry Fandon.
Quote from: One Horse Town;255852Dude. You just gone done D) ;) Luckily squirrels aren't that controversial.
Honestly, if you look at the titles and your responses, I fit your "reviled" game designer. Highly focused, narrow play that forces you into such by
"into fucked-up territory via the text, actual plays, rules and tone are vastly different to games where that sort of stuff could happen". I have had this accusation leveled at me almost word for word. With just a bit of addition and not really much change to your written statement, I and my squirrel games can be included in the renunciations. I am more inclusive I guess but I would agree, just as people generally do not have sex on public streets, you probably do not want to play make believe sex in a public place. It is impolite.
However, if you are going to denounce "forgie" game designers then you had best be prepared to denounce me and my "weird" games.
And no, I am not a forgie.
Bill
Quote from: HinterWelt;255895Honestly, if you look at the titles and your responses, I fit your "reviled" game designer. Highly focused, narrow play that forces you into such by "into fucked-up territory via the text, actual plays, rules and tone are vastly different to games where that sort of stuff could happen". I have had this accusation leveled at me almost word for word. With just a bit of addition and not really much change to your written statement, I and my squirrel games can be included in the renunciations. I am more inclusive I guess but I would agree, just as people generally do not have sex on public streets, you probably do not want to play make believe sex in a public place. It is impolite.
However, if you are going to denounce "forgie" game designers then you had best be prepared to denounce me and my "weird" games.
And no, I am not a forgie.
Bill
Really? you can't see the difference of his argument?
If you took your games and used those tactics to go into territory more questionable than squirrels, then, perhaps, you could claim to be the martyr.
Well, I haven't seen Freedom Squirrel - but I still doubt you went there...
Quote from: HinterWelt;255895Honestly, if you look at the titles and your responses, I fit your "reviled" game designer. Highly focused, narrow play that forces you into such by "into fucked-up territory via the text, actual plays, rules and tone are vastly different to games where that sort of stuff could happen". I have had this accusation leveled at me almost word for word. With just a bit of addition and not really much change to your written statement, I and my squirrel games can be included in the renunciations. I am more inclusive I guess but I would agree, just as people generally do not have sex on public streets, you probably do not want to play make believe sex in a public place. It is impolite.
However, if you are going to denounce "forgie" game designers then you had best be prepared to denounce me and my "weird" games.
And no, I am not a forgie.
Bill
I suggest you read it all again, Bill.
I'm not denouncing "forgie" game designers, for a start.
Quote from: One Horse Town;255897I suggest you read it all again, Bill.
I'm not denouncing "forgie" game designers, for a start.
But it could be read as a general denouncement of narrow focused games. I mean, yeah, I get it, you are saying games like Fatal do no good for the hobby. I just am not in the camp that such games destroy the hobby. I think most folks just get pissed when things change. People ar elike that for some reason. They want static, status quo lives with just enough illusion of change that they can call themselves progressive. The bad news for these folks is that things evolve. This hobby is going to evolve. I truly do not see it becoming a den of child porn and pedophiles though. Experiments will happen like this. Does it really matter? Do you think any more people know about Maid than Squirrel Attack!? The majority of the hobby(and I mean 99%) is DND or clones of DND. Even Vampire is really just a slight variation on a traditional DND campaign with lords, ridiculously powered individuals and "horrible" monsters.
That said, I still think from a lot of what you said, a trad game designer and some of the more trad products out there could fit your definitions of unacceptable.
Now, I fully admit I may be misreading your post but that is how I see it. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Bill
Quote from: James J Skach;255896Really? you can't see the difference of his argument?
If you took your games and used those tactics to go into territory more questionable than squirrels, then, perhaps, you could claim to be the martyr.
Well, I haven't seen Freedom Squirrel - but I still doubt you went there...
I am not claiming to be any matyr. I am claiming that Don is painting with broad brush that will nail some of us that make games that go
"into fucked-up territory via the text, actual plays, rules and tone are vastly different to games where that sort of stuff could happen".Now, he might not have meant to include games that do not deal with similar apporaches but "fucked-up territory" is kind of vague.
I will also admit that his phrasing touched a nerve with me as I have had people direct this kind of crap at me. "Oh noes! you are a furry!!!" kind of crap. I am saying, perception can be a dangerous thing.
Bill
Quote from: HinterWelt;255899That said, I still think from a lot of what you said, a trad game designer and some of the more trad products out there could fit your definitions of unacceptable.
I've said as much before - not sure in this thread, but i agree with you - which is why i said i'm not denouncing "forgies". I'm trying to stress the difference between author responsibility and player responsibility.
I won't double post and quote from your 2nd post. I don't want a fight with you Bill, because i don't think there is one. I'm sorry that some folk have misrepresented your games.
There are some, IMO, that cannot be misrepresented.
I'm kinda tired of re-posting and re-posting what i mean. Maybe i'm not being clear enough, but i think i've re-stated it enough times that my meaning should be clear by now.
Quote from: One Horse Town;255901I've said as much before - not sure in this thread, but i agree with you - which is why i said i'm not denouncing "forgies". I'm trying to stress the difference between author responsibility and player responsibility.
I won't double post and quote from your 2nd post. I don't want a fight with you Bill, because i don't think there is one. I'm sorry that some folk have misrepresented your games.
There are some, IMO, that cannot be misrepresented.
I'm kinda tired of re-posting and re-posting what i mean. Maybe i'm not being clear enough, but i think i've re-stated it enough times that my meaning should be clear by now.
Sorry, I did not mean to harass you.
Bill
As another example of a recent release, this from the retro-clone "movement", Carcosa (http://knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=4951). I respect the author and get that he's being true to his source material. But if the actual play and book description are any indication it's as potentially squicky as Maid if not moreso. Children victims, human sacrifices, Cthulhoid monsters for starters.
Quote from: Age of Fable;255883At least in my experience, there's now a quiet consensus that that stuff is weird and gross.
Right, and the actual Maid replay in question* crosses a personal squick line I'd not want crossed, but this idea that it was never there until oh, 1991, and that only (insert favorite target) has examples of it is disingenuous. The "Dragonlance killed RPGs" conspiracy theory holds more water than that this will, though I hardly subscribe to it either. And thanks for the reminder of d20's BoEF.
Quote from: droog;255880I'll take #3. But seriously, folks: society at large doesn't give a shit about 'the industry'. They barely know it exists.
This. RPGs haven't been a blip on the collective radar since 1986 or earlier, which had nothing to do with Swine or sexualization. Wargaming, historical miniatures and model trains haven't declined to either either. ;) If people do find RPGs it's mainly through (mostly crap) novels or computer games. While the year is no longer 1974, it's no longer 1984 either.
* even though the replay uses none of the optional rules, the broom bit is between two PCs, and is initiated by a fellow female maid (not a male master) re: teasing (not rape); the replay also seems to involve more "player/PC must go along with something they'd rather not because there's no choice" than I prefer; if the translated game as is not a straight unabridged version anyway of the Japanese original, I'd much prefer that they'd left this out as well.
Quote from: HinterWelt;255905Sorry, I did not mean to harass you.
Bill
You're not harassing me. :)
I simply don't want a fight with you, where one doesn't exist.
Quote from: walkerp;255811I just find it depressing to find all this kneejerk moralism in a scene that was once such a targeted victim of kneejerk moralism.
Not in my country. That "D&D is Satanist!" nonsense was largely confined to the USA.
Quote from: walkerpIt's like the christian right ended up infiltrating gaming instead of trying to shut it down.
Yes, because only the Christian right thinks that murdering children and molesting their corpses is okay, a la
Poison'd. The Christian right is also very much against keeping women submissive and confined to the home,a la
Maid.
Quote from: One Horse TownIn an interactive medium such as RPGs, the author has no such control as to how his creation will eventually be used - therefore, the buck stops with him as to how the tone of the game turns out.
Of course. I've always said that the credit and the blame for everything which happens at the game table lies with the players. Game rules and content do not
determine but do
encourage certain types of play; if they had
no affect at all on play, there would be no reason to ever own more than one set of rpg rules.
Quote from: David RAfter all the Elmore, Caldwell and Mongoose art is there any doubt that this hobby isn't sexualized ?
There's a difference between
having some sexy content and
being sexualised. It's like the difference between a drama movie with a quick shot of a couple having sex, or glimpse of six-pack abs on a hot guy, and a porno. In one meal it's a flavouring, in another it's the main course.
Quote from: HinterWeltI just am not in the camp that such games destroy the hobby.
They may, or may not - I don't know. But they don't
help.
I think Pundit's reference to Furry Fandom is really spot-on.
In the early 90's, antropomorphic animals were all the rage. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Usagi Yojimbo, and Alebedo were ground-breaking comics that pushed the boundaries of what comics were, while rediscovering the inherent humor and metaphorical power of Funny Animal Comics (a trope that had been slaughtered by the rise of the Super Hero Comic).
While it started in comics, it quickly spread to other mediums: cartoons, movies, toys, etc. It even infiltrated mainstream comics as characters like Feral and Wolfsbane became more prominent.
Two of my favorite RPGs of all time, Justifiers and TMNT & Other Strangeness, are strongly rooted in the genre. The animal-as-character trope is especially powerful in RPGs, where saying "The guards are both boars." conveys loads of information about characters quickly. Players will assume that the guards are thick-headed, dimwitted, quick to anger, and likely to frenzy, while they will assume very different things if the GM says "The guards are both hawks."
And now 15 years later, I'm loathe to make any attempt to defend the genre. It's been perverted by a very small group of sickos who used the internet and conventions to promote their vision of furry fandom, which was mixed up with their disturbed sexuality and bizarre beliefs. The term "furry" has become a put down and a joke, and has absorbed such bizarre perversions as "plushies" into it's definition.
The real question though is this: Is the RPG hobby more like furry fandom, or more like comic fandom? Because comic fandom is this much larger market than furry fandom was, and when furry went to a bad place, the comic fandom simply cut that segment off and drew a line. Either you're a freaky furry and like animal-people with boobs and giant dicks, or you're a normal comic book fan and eschew that weirdo stuff.
I think the RPG hobby as a whole is big enough and strong enough that the Story Games segment can only ultimately damage themselves with their quest for greater perversion and weirdness. They'll disappear into their own little ghetto of twenty sales per book, and eventually (already?) the RPG market will divide into two camps and have nothing to do with each other.
I think "hobby" is a dirty word.
However.
I vigorously oppose anything that has a chance, however tiny, of shrinking the available pool of hawt chicks for an eligible strapping metrosexual such as myself by trickling down into the pop imaginary, i.e. when against all odds some stupid local paper runs a story on it, AP picks it up, and next thing you know it's in the Times, which is when *I* will officially leave the "hobby," only at that point it's too late anyway, and then what.
Anyway, what's really sad about all this is that this silly little piece of nonsense was one of the very few actual new releases at GenCon. That's why it's even talked about--because there's nothing else to talk about.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;255910There's a difference between having some sexy content and being sexualised. It's like the difference between a drama movie with a quick shot of a couple having sex, or glimpse of six-pack abs on a hot guy, and a porno. In one meal it's a flavouring, in another it's the main course.
This nuance hardly matters when it comes to the perception of non-gamers of the hobby. In fact I'd argue that having dodgy covers for the sake of selling books is way more damaging to the hobby, not to mention what it says about gamers in general than the actual sexual content of a small group of games. Furthermore if one were to compare sexual content, I would think a game like
Black Tokyo is more porn (using your analogy)than say something like
Maid (which seems more Benny Hill)
I don't think your analogy holds though. Some people may object to any sexual content in their games, I'm thinking of gamers with a distatse for
WW games, but this hardly makes
Vampire ,
Werewolf etc damaging to the hobby. In fact - even though some may not think this is a good thing - these games have actually introduced gaming to folks who may otherwise have no interest in the activity.
The real question is I think, should certain subject matter be off limits ? And if so, is said subject matter damaging to the hobby ?
Regards,
David R
To address one issues, if something fits into 'bedroom roleplaying', rather than 'game table roleplaying', then it's not part of the 'hobby' and should not be sold as or in a game.
Just do what you (Abstract 'you') obviously want to do and write a how-to guide for 'bedroom roleplaying' and quit misrepresenting your product.
Quote from: David R;255918This nuance hardly matters when it comes to the perception of non-gamers of the hobby.
I think it does. Again, people can tell the difference between a movie which uses sex to sell - like a zillion thriller movies - and a movie which is about sex - like a porno. People can likewise tell the difference between a movie which has sadistic murder scenes in it, and a movie which asks us to empathise with a sadistic murderer. It's the icing and the cake. People
can tell the difference.
Quote from: David RIn fact I'd argue that having dodgy covers for the sake of selling books is way more damaging to the hobby, not to mention what it says about gamers in general than the actual sexual content of a small group of games.
I don't think those covers help, either. However, in Western society virtually everything uses sex to sell, so rpgs don't stand out much in that regard. But if they become
about sex - or sexual violence - then they'll stand out.
I mean, here's a Mazda advert,
(http://www.modifiedstreetcars.com/girl_images/car-babe-mazda-rx7-57.jpg)
do Mazda car owners have a poor image because of that? Yes and no. Using sex to sell
can make the thing they're selling seem like it's for dorky guys who are in some way losers. But even toilet paper gets the sexy treatment.
(http://scribalterror.blogs.com/scribal_terror/images/sell_renova.jpg)
So again, I don't really see how rpg covers can stand out in that regard. Again, it's not great - but I think that rpgs are generally
invisible to the general public, not scorned because they have some saucy covers. What could make rpgs visible? All sorts of things - but being associated with violent deviance could make them visible in not a very good way.
Quote from: David RThe real question is I think, should certain subject matter be off limits ? And if so, is said subject matter damaging to the hobby ?
It's not really the subject matter as such, but the treatment of it. Consider two American films about white racism against blacks -
Birth of a Nation and
Mississippi Burning. Or two films about murder -
Cold Blood and
Saw. The issue really is that reprehensible things are treated as k3w1.
If you went to a guy's house and found his DVD collection consisted of all five
Saw movies, of
Birth of a Nation, Triumph of the Will and the like, his book collection of
The Anarchist's Cookbook,
Mein Kampf,
The Turner Diaries and so on, with pictures of violent BDSM on his walls, I daresay you'd be a bit unnerved at the least.
Now, such a guy probably doesn't exist, even freaks are not one-dimensional. Nonetheless, it's that sort of one-dimensional freak which becomes the image of a subculture or hobby when deviant sexual interests come to represent it.
I am not convinced that games like
Maid and
Poison'd and
FATAL really risk harm to our hobby, threaten to make us look like freaks. As I said, they may or may not do harm - I don't know. But they don't
help, that's for fucking sure.
I approve of Kyle's last post.
Guys and girls, can we not start using "sexualisation of RPGs" as a jargon term. This would mean that we consider the game itself to have sexual characteristics, not merely that it touches on sexual content. A hot topic is the sexualisation of children; sexualisation of RPGs is a nonsense term.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sexualization
If not sexualization, then what term would you suggest? Because your post is not very useful without an alternative.
Quote from: The_Shadow;255931Guys and girls, can we not start using "sexualisation of RPGs" as a jargon term.
I simply distinguished between things which had a
gloss of a certain subject, and things which were
actually about that subject. The term's useful for that.
Of course, some people prefer diverting conversations into semantics so they don't have to defend their weak ideas.
Quote from: Narf the Mouse;255932If not sexualization, then what term would you suggest? Because your post is not very useful without an alternative.
I don't see that he needs to make an alternative suggestions. Just the folks who are flinging the term around need to find it. Otherwise you just like Ron Edwards and redefining wordsto make them mean what you want them to mean.
Quote from: Narf the Mouse;255932If not sexualization, then what term would you suggest? Because your post is not very useful without an alternative.
Depends on what you want to say.
"I am against the sexualisation of RPGs" doesn't make much sense, but "I am against RPGs explicitly incorporating sexual elements into the rules" might be better.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;255933Of course, some people prefer diverting conversations into semantics so they don't have to defend their weak ideas.
Hehe. Care to name names?
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;255791Having a hobby attract creepy weirdos never helps the hobby.
Congratulations you've described every hobby out there.
Quote from: James McMurray;255846Roleplaying has always been a haven for dorks and social misfits, and it always will. Chase them away and you kill the industry, because people with "real lives" and girlfriends usually have better things to do with their time then pretend to be Legolas, Lancelot, and Merlin killing Smaug.
Not all of us have to choose, thanks! I mean I have a wife, a girlfriend or two, and still manage a healthy game! I think you're right that Roleplaying will always, by it's very nature, attract some odd ducks-but we have plenty of just plain old ducks as well. (So sue me, I'm sick of squirrel metaphors! :D )
QuoteDon't game with them if you don't like them, but if you think that gaming can survive without their sweaty palms and allowance money, you're just a tad naive.
I agree, 110%.
Quote from: droog;255880But seriously, folks: society at large doesn't give a shit about 'the industry'. They barely know it exists.
True that. So very true.
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;255892There is no room for fools that wish to make RPGs into a second Furry Fandon.
Amen.
Quote from: David R;255918This nuance hardly matters when it comes to the perception of non-gamers of the hobby.
I think that can be true, but isn't always true. Common, but not pervasive necessarily.
QuoteThe real question is I think, should certain subject matter be off limits?
I hope not-I mean obviously I hope there's no market for Pedophiles, and the like but I'd rather speak with my dollars than ban something. I think this should be your, and my decision as players. You do what seems best for your group.
QuoteAnd if so, is said subject matter damaging to the hobby?
I don't think so.
Nothing wrong with sexual content; acknowledging that RPG characters may have sexual encounters and even *Gasp* marraige is a good thing.
Where I draw the line is at four places:
1) The material becomes pornographic.
2) The material becomes psychologically sick in its portrayal.
3) How the RPG deals with the sexual material is no longer within a context that could be called a 'Role-Playing Game'.
4) The depiction is not respectful of the content matter. This last, I believe, is easy to grasp if one's head is screwed on forward. Rape is not a game and should not be treated as such; marraige and deep relationships can exist in a role-playing game.
Any 'game' which explores, say, rape in a deep and meaningful manner (Rather than as exploitation or pornography) is not a game but a psychological tool and marketing it as a game is false advertising at the least - And deeply suspicious.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;255928I think it does. Again, people can tell the difference between a movie which uses sex to sell - like a zillion thriller movies - and a movie which is about sex - like a porno. People can likewise tell the difference between a movie which has sadistic murder scenes in it, and a movie which asks us to empathise with a sadistic murderer. It's the icing and the cake. People can tell the difference.
I disagree. What has given gamers a bad rep ? Sex covers for all to see or discussions on gaming boards? Most times, first impressions count. Nobody - non gamers - is going to take the time to appreciate the difference between an rpg with a dodgy cover (which may have nothing to do with the game itself) and subject matter which may be pretty vile but with a relatively tame cover.
QuoteI don't think those covers help, either. However, in Western society virtually everything uses sex to sell, so rpgs don't stand out much in that regard. But if they become about sex - or sexual violence - then they'll stand out.
I agree but do these kind of covers really attract gamers ? My thinking is, that it does more harm than dodgy subject matter. Also what kind of dodgy content are we talking about here? Some examples would be good. Leave aside the obvious will ya'...
QuoteSo again, I don't really see how rpg covers can stand out in that regard. Again, it's not great - but I think that rpgs are generally invisible to the general public, not scorned because they have some saucy covers. What could make rpgs visible? All sorts of things - but being associated with violent deviance could make them visible in not a very good way.
You don't see how a cover displayed for all to see is more damaging to the hobby than what goes on in discussions sites? Do non gamers even consider the content of rpgs ? They think we all play
D&D and pretend to be elves. And really some of these covers go beyond just racy. It's exploitative and it seems to imply that gamers view women and fantasy as such.
QuoteIt's not really the subject matter as such, but the treatment of it. Consider two American films about white racism against blacks - Birth of a Nation and Mississippi Burning. Or two films about murder - Cold Blood and Saw. The issue really is that reprehensible things are treated as k3w1.
So what type of games are you talking about here ? Most gamers think
Rahowa is crap and would not touch it with a ten foot pole. As far treatment goes, the knee jeek reaction is that most risky subject matter is off limits. Nobody even considers (at least around here) that the designer may want to explore certain themes.
QuoteIf you went to a guy's house and found his DVD collection consisted of all five Saw movies, of Birth of a Nation, Triumph of the Will and the like, his book collection of The Anarchist's Cookbook, Mein Kampf, The Turner Diaries and so on, with pictures of violent BDSM on his walls, I daresay you'd be a bit unnerved at the least
See, this is why I think you're confusing the issue. Seriously what kind of games are out there (even those with risky subject matter ) which are even comparable to the films you mentioned. Are we talking about all Forge games ?
QuoteNow, such a guy probably doesn't exist, even freaks are not one-dimensional. Nonetheless, it's that sort of one-dimensional freak which becomes the image of a subculture or hobby when deviant sexual interests come to represent it.
You're not the Pundit so I know you are not just simply saying this, but where exactly are these sexual deviants. I know more gamers who play mainstream games in the most vile way and have such a low regard for women (and it shows in their behaviour in public) than folks who play games with risky content and which the majority of gamers have not heard of.
QuoteI am not convinced that games like Maid and Poison'd and FATAL really risk harm to our hobby, threaten to make us look like freaks. As I said, they may or may not do harm - I don't know. But they don't help, that's for fucking sure.
I have not read
Maid or
Poison'd so I can't really comment. I do think the majority of gamers think
FATAL is a load of crap. I don't think non gamers have even heard of
FATAL, but I do know that they (non-gamers) think we are a bunch of immature morons because of the kind of covers out there and the way how some of us behave at conventions.
When fucked up games and by fucked up I mean games like
FATAL and
RAHOWA achieve mainstream success, then yeah I'll say the hobby has been damaged, but don't expect me to buy into this whole sexual content is ruining the hobby, when it has always been around in various guises and the games that do seem to attract unwanted attention is because their designers belong to a small subset of gamers and the thinking around here at least is that they should be chased out of the hobby. Not to mention that these so called sexual games themselves aren't really sexual at all.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;255830While none of us are too bothered by it, some of the guys have had problems over the years with bystanders or sit-in players taking it the wrong way. One dude's girlfriend was pissed off at him for a week or so after she walked in midway while his evil PC was raping some NPC, frex.
Yeah, what the hell? It's not like he was being paid to perform a role he had every opportunity to turn down, like an actor. And it's not like rape is about de-humanizing the victim in the first place. What's the point in playing an evil PC if you can't rape a few milkmaids here and there? It's not like
all women have been sexually assaulted at some point in their lives, it can't possibly be a trigger for every woman out there.
I mean, if you can't kick back with the guys and
intentionally imagine raping some woman as part of your hobby, what is the point in even picking up dice?
Did she not realize that you are a group of
artistes, pushing the boundaries for the greater good of art?
I approve of that sarcasm. It was well-done.
Also, not only do I think the hobby could survive without creepy gamers, I'd like to see us try.
Quote from: David R;255943I disagree. What has given gamers a bad rep ?
I already said, gamers don't have a bad rep. Our hobby is not despised, it's invisible.
Certain things can make it visible, though, both good and bad. They haven't yet, but could.
Quote from: David RNobody - non gamers - is going to take the time to appreciate the difference between an rpg with a dodgy cover (which may have nothing to do with the game itself) and subject matter which may be pretty vile but with a relatively tame cover.
I don't think people in general are that superficial or with such short attention spans. They realise the difference between the cake and the icing. The presentation of things is pretty clear, generally.
Quote from: David RAlso what kind of dodgy content are we talking about here? Some examples would be good. Leave aside the obvious will ya'...
The "obvious"? I assume you mean
Poison'd and the like. That's not very helpful. "Talk about the things you find offensive, while mentioning nothing you've ever found offensive."
Quote from: David RYou don't see how a cover displayed for all to see is more damaging to the hobby than what goes on in discussions sites?
If it were confined to discussion sites, then you'd be right. But these games are played and promoted at cons, which are certainly a place where non-gamers and new gamers see the hobby and form an image of it.
Consider this anecdote (http://www.d20blonde.com/?p=178) of Ed Greenwood sleazing onto some young women gamers. Then throw in dorks creating badges to say whether or not it's okay to ask to grope them, and with all that imagine the game of molesting the corpses of children going on in the corner.
Then imagine a new gamer coming in and seeing that, or some kid's non-gaming parents? Good old Max (http://jrients.blogspot.com/2008/10/all-hail-max.html), perhaps? What image will be formed of the hobby? As it emerges from invisibility, what silhouette will be seen?
Quote from: David RDo non gamers even consider the content of rpgs ?
No. That's why I said that rpgs are as a hobby generally invisible. It's helpful if you respond to what I've written, not some imagined other thing.
Quote from: David RSo what type of games are you talking about here ? [...] Nobody even considers (at least around here) that the designer may want to explore certain themes.
I'm quite certain the designers want to explore certain themes. Misery tourism, sadistic sexual fantasies, and so on.
Quote from: David RSee, this is why I think you're confusing the issue. Seriously what kind of games are out there (even those with risky subject matter ) which are even comparable to the films you mentioned. Are we talking about all Forge games ?
Not all Forger games, no. But they encourage it, as part of their desire to be supershockedgeycool as a substitute for being genuinely interesting and fun.
We've talked about these games many times.
My Life With Master, Dogs in the Vineyard, Poison'd, and so on - all present a very dark vision of the world, and give rise to game sessions where the PCs do some really nasty shit.
Quote from: David RYou're not the Pundit so I know you are not just simply saying this, but where exactly are these sexual deviants.
Just look in the Forge's actual play subforums. Or over at 4chan. They're all over the place.
Quote from: David RI know more gamers who play mainstream games in the most vile way and have such a low regard for women (and it shows in their behaviour in public) than folks who play games with risky content and which the majority of gamers have not heard of.
Me, too. But there are two issues. The first is that sexing everything up to sell it is just what Western culture does, so as I said rpgs don't stand out much in that respect; the same applies to a certain low-level misogyny. The second comes from the first, a question of degree, what stands out.
If a game has a picture of some physically impossible woman on the cover, it's just like a zillion magazines or movies and won't be noticed as anything remarkable. If a game regularly gives rise to play involving murdering children and molesting their corpses, then like
Saw and so on it'll stand out.
Quote from: David RWhen fucked up games and by fucked up I mean games like FATAL and RAHOWA achieve mainstream success, then yeah I'll say the hobby has been damaged,
I never said the hobby was damaged, or that it would be. I simply said that this sort of shit
might be damaging, and certainly dosen't
help. Again, responding to what the person wrote and not something else helps conversation along.
Quote from: David Rbut don't expect me to buy into this whole sexual content is ruining the hobby,
And again, I would never say that. There's sexual content and then there's sexual content. Having a game where (say) a couple get together and shag happily is miles away from having a game where someone rapes their ten year old maid with a broomstick.
Quote from: David Rthe thinking around here at least is that they should be chased out of the hobby.
Yes, they should. The catpissmen, the smelly freaks and perverts, the weirdos with zero social skills ought to be mocked, pelted with cheetos and driven from the hobby. Game groups are not group therapy for the socially retarded and deviant.
I take Andy K. at his word when he says he regrets including the offending example of play. The underlying genre has some dodgy elements, as certainly does the original designer's (and his play group's) take on it, but that entails a pretty broad discussion of responsibility in presentation of translated and adapted works.
So to some degree I think the present discussion is taking place under a false pretext.
That said I'm not especially concerned about the publication of a given game causing damage to the image of the wider activity, it's the reception of the game in the subculture itself. If gaming collectively embraced sicko styles of play, then I'd be personally turned off and I'd also seek to distance myself from "the hobby". And by "embrace" I include such things as loud proclamations of tolerance. I'm afraid this may go over some people's heads, but if RPGs are really a neutral medium in se then "the hobby" not only has no business dictating what's tolerable, it also has no business dictating tolerance either. I.e. while I mostly reject the policing of morality "for the good of the hobby", I equally reject using social pressure to shut down individual expressions of (dis)taste. It's this (which I suppose is based on some geek social fallacy or another), that I suspect contributed to the downfall of furry fandom, that "tolerance" became such a core value that the more normal members of the subculture couldn't even muster the will to express personal revulsion at the sicko elements.
Quote from: Narf the Mouse;255949I approve of that sarcasm. It was well-done.
Also, not only do I think the hobby could survive without creepy gamers, I'd like to see us try.
Thank you, it is a speciality.
I am also quite confident that this hobby can easily survive the loss of those who use it as a vehicle for sociopathic daydreaming.
[QUOTE="The_Shadow]"I am against RPGs explicitly incorporating sexual elements into the rules" might be better.[/QUOTE]
Like mentioning that people have sex, having seduction skill and such... or having actuall FATAL-like rules for doing it...?
Relevant livejounal post (http://narf-the-mouse.livejournal.com/3889.html) I just made.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;255951I take Andy K. at his word when he says he regrets including the offending example of play.
Sorry, but where exactly does Andy K say this?
RPGPundit
And, more precisely, if it was in the original, how would not including it not be a gross misrepresentation?
See, this is why I get creeped out by a lot of anime - When I learn about the stuff they take out for the NA versions.
Also, I'm getting the same effect with disney fairie tales.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;255950I already said, gamers don't have a bad rep. Our hobby is not despised, it's invisible.
Invisible ? Maybe in Australia but certainly not in the States or even here in Malaysia. You are not aware of the references in pop culture to the hobby ? You are not aware of how
D&D gamers are generally mocked as anti social nerds ? Or the kind of groups that pay attention to our hobby....like religious ones ? We are not invisible kyle. And we do have a bad rep.
QuoteCertain things can make it visible, though, both good and bad. They haven't yet, but could.
Like I said we are visible, we are not really a huge hobby but we are definitely on the radar. And most certainly we can make ourselves more visible. I have already described the behaviour and products which would do so.
QuoteI don't think people in general are that superficial or with such short attention spans. They realise the difference between the cake and the icing. The presentation of things is pretty clear, generally.
IMO they are. We are generally a superficial society. Nobody really takes the time to study the issues. We see this in poilitics, the media, most everywhere. Why should it be different when it comes to gaming scene.
QuoteThe "obvious"? I assume you mean Poison'd and the like. That's not very helpful. "Talk about the things you find offensive, while mentioning nothing you've ever found offensive."
Well yeah, I meant, talk about the games that people actually play. I mentioned
Exalted and
White Wolf games, both which have sexual content. Feel free to mention games that are universally mocked by most gamers or not played or games that most gamers aren't even aware off.
QuoteIf it were confined to discussion sites, then you'd be right. But these games are played and promoted at cons, which are certainly a place where non-gamers and new gamers see the hobby and form an image of it.
It depends on the game. If you're talking about
Poison'd, sure. It was a stupid attention grabbing stunt, that did the game and the hobby no favours.
QuoteConsider this anecdote (http://www.d20blonde.com/?p=178) of Ed Greenwood sleazing onto some young women gamers. Then throw in dorks creating badges to say whether or not it's okay to ask to grope them, and with all that imagine the game of molesting the corpses of children going on in the corner.
Exactly, behaviour of gamers and designers. This is what I've been saying. Content does not draw as much attention as behaviour. This is the type of anti social behaviour that gives gamers and the hobby a bad rep.
QuoteThen imagine a new gamer coming in and seeing that, or some kid's non-gaming parents? Good old Max (http://jrients.blogspot.com/2008/10/all-hail-max.html), perhaps? What image will be formed of the hobby? As it emerges from invisibility, what silhouette will be seen?
Gamer behaviour right ? We are not talking about content. I'll just like to add, imagine non gamer parents seeing the kind of dodgy covers out there. The way how some gamers treat women. The booth babes. The list really does go on. I'm not saying that actual plays are not part of the problem, they are but I consider them a part of the anti social behaviour of some gamers.
QuoteNo. That's why I said that rpgs are as a hobby generally invisible. It's helpful if you respond to what I've written, not some imagined other thing.
Well I happen to believe that the hobby is not invisble. And from your convention examples, it's perfectly reasonble to assume that non gamers would not examine the content but observe the fucked up behaviour and conclude that the hobby is filled with social misfits.
QuoteI'm quite certain the designers want to explore certain themes. Misery tourism, sadistic sexual fantasies, and so on.
Well I don't agree your with definitons and would rather concentrate on individual games. I thought the discussion on
Grey Ranks was interesting and the game IMO didn't fit any of the categories you mentioned. But then again I'll assume my opinion on the matter really does not matter to you.
QuoteNot all Forger games, no. But they encourage it, as part of their desire to be supershockedgeycool as a substitute for being genuinely interesting and fun.
Okay now you sound like the Pundit. I don't really know how to respond to this. I have found some Forge/Stroygames interesting and others total crap....much like the mainstream games out there.
QuoteWe've talked about these games many times. My Life With Master, Dogs in the Vineyard, Poison'd, and so on - all present a very dark vision of the world, and give rise to game sessions where the PCs do some really nasty shit.
Yeah and....I mean players doing nasty shit in games ain't new. Dark Visions of the world ain't new. Now I understand you have lumped all these games together, but you do realize that players will do terrible stuff in games sometimes without even having to have a context. These games are grim. Why is it so hard to believe that some people may actually like that. These same people are not neccessarily dark and grim in real life, they just like it in their entertianment. I mean I don't think people who like heroic fantasy are necessarily heroic in real life, just that that's the kind of entertainmnet they like.
QuoteJust look in the Forge's actual play subforums. Or over at 4chan. They're all over the place.
That's why so many people have heard of the Forge and their games.
QuoteMe, too. But there are two issues. The first is that sexing everything up to sell it is just what Western culture does, so as I said rpgs don't stand out much in that respect; the same applies to a certain low-level misogyny. The second comes from the first, a question of degree, what stands out.
And what stands out IMO are these types of covers and the behaviour of gamers not the subject matter of the games themselves.
QuoteIf a game has a picture of some physically impossible woman on the cover, it's just like a zillion magazines or movies and won't be noticed as anything remarkable. If a game regularly gives rise to play involving murdering children and molesting their corpses, then like Saw and so on it'll stand out.
This would depend on where the game is sold. If it's sold with all the other girlie mags than you would be right. Some how I don't think they are. Many of them are sold in games shops or in big bookstores, where they are displayed with other gaming products with relatively "normal" covers. I may be wrong on this.
QuoteI never said the hobby was damaged, or that it would be. I simply said that this sort of shit might be damaging, and certainly dosen't help. Again, responding to what the person wrote and not something else helps conversation along.
Well yeah...I mean I never said the hobby is damaged either. We just disagree on exactly what could do damage to the hobby. Although I do concede that I have a particular hate on for dodgy cover art and the sometimes anti social behaviour of gamers.
QuoteAnd again, I would never say that. There's sexual content and then there's sexual content. Having a game where (say) a couple get together and shag happily is miles away from having a game where someone rapes their ten year old maid with a broomstick.
I was addressing the general theme of this thread. I was not refering to anything you said specifically. I should have been clear about that.
QuoteYes, they should. The catpissmen, the smelly freaks and perverts, the weirdos with zero social skills ought to be mocked, pelted with cheetos and driven from the hobby. Game groups are not group therapy for the socially retarded and deviant.
Now who is not addressing what a person actually wrote? I was talking about the hate the Forge and gamers who play Forge games generally get around here. If you really think that they fall under the categories you mentioned, fine. Otherwise address my point. Oh and kyle, I agree that the catpissmen, the smelly freaks and perverts, the wierdos with zero social skills ought to be mocked, pelted with cheetos and driven from the hobby. I do undertand though that if this happens, there will generally be fewer
D&D gamers. I'm told this would be bad for the hobby.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David RI do undertand though that if this happens, there will generally be fewer D&D gamers. I'm told this would be bad for the hobby.
Seeing as D&D comprises the largest portion of the hobby, that's both a rather large slander and innacurate in aspect.
And, personally, as a D&D player I find it offensive.
Also, the title of this thread is deceptive of the actual issue. To demonstrate;
'Is the hobby really THAT fragile that we can't accept creepy wierdos, non-functional sociopaths and sexually obsessed deviants as a legitimate part of the hobby?'
See, the thing is, it has nothing to do with the fragility of the hobby. It has everything to do with the Content of the hobby. And that (The content the title seems to promote acceptance of) is content that I Do Not Want.
Edit: I don't know if that's what you (The original poster) intended, but it was a mistake, nontheless.
Quote from: Narf the Mouse;255964Seeing as D&D comprises the largest portion of the hobby, that's both a rather large slander and innacurate in aspect.
And, personally, as a D&D player I find it offensive.
Well it's because
D&D is the largest portion of the hobby, I joked that most of the lawncrappers would come form it ( lawncrapery predates the Forge and Storygamers). I mean how many people have even heard of Forge games ? But yeah, you are well within your rights to say that Forge gamers are lawn crappers . I play Forge games, so I guess I should feel a little offended too.
Edit: And in your blog entry you talk mostly of behaviour not content.
Regards,
David R
I have never said that Forge gamers are lawncrappers and I have tried not to imply that.
I'll take this moment, then, to state definitely that there are Forge games I find interesting and would play.
Lastly, the behavior I talk about is the content of the RPG hobby I do not want.
Is that all, or can I have my apology now?
Quote from: Narf the Mouse;255967Is that all, or can I have my apology now?
I apologize if I caused any offense.
QuoteLastly, the behavior I talk about is the content of the RPG hobby I do not want
I was refering to your blog post, which made it seem you were appallled at the acceptability of the anti social behaviour of some gamers. But if you say by behaviour you meant content, fair enough.
Regards,
David R
Edit: Thanks.
More like, by content I mean behavior.
That is to say, if a hobby is filled with sociopaths, then the hobby will be sociopathic.
All should be comprehensible now. :)
A few points:
While some people have drawn a parallel to furries, I think that rather misses the point. Nearly all fields have explicit sexual material. Movies aren't invalidated by the existence of pornographic movies. Similarly, there is explicit material available in comics, animation, SF novels, video games, and lots of other fields without those becoming associated with it. I don't see major outcry in those fandoms about eliminating the sexually explicit material.
I think there can and should be a push to eliminate material that condones or glorifies unacceptable behavior. Just having sex appear in the fiction isn't a problem -- even if the work is focused on that. It probably won't be my thing, but I don't have issues with it. However, I do have problems with aspects of games that promote sexism, racism, real-world violence (including sexual violence), etc.
That has been addressed in this thead, multiple times.
I read a really nasty book once. It was appalling, and I gave up reading straight away.
"And then I walked into a sci-fi bookstore, and most of the books were about alien tentacle porn. So I walked away/bought the whole set."
Thank you for completely misunderstanding the point of the objections.
Direction, content, outside impressions.
It's your problem for thinking in terms of inside and outside.
Please explain your statement. I am unable to parse the content of it.
I have to explain myself so much these days. Come back, Pierce Inverarity! Come back, Settembrini! All is forgiven!
If you weren't bent on identifying yourself as the inside, huddling together against outside impressions, you wouldn't be so worried about how people see 'the hobby'.
You see roleplaying games in general as a sci-fi bookstore, while I see no reason why they can't cover every topic covered by the novel and then some. And authors like Stephen King and Bret Easton Ellis seem to be moderately successful in their respective niches. The mainstream is already there.
It's not about huddling. It's about emerging impressions and not wishing those impressions to consist of creepy wierdos. We already had that.
Also, you seem to have missed the other objections.
My post about the sci-fi bookstore, aside from sarcasm, was also a metaphor. In no way do I limit RPGs to sci-fi and it should not be construed as such.
You have to explain yourself because, as far as I can tell, your posts are semi-incoherent by way of being too short to clearly express your ideas.
For example, your third paragraph. RPGs cover every topic covered by the novel already. There are RPGs made in the style of Stephan King and most likely the other guy I don't recognize.
You seem to be saying that the mainstream is already fully immersed in creepyness?
All of this is far too low on explanations for me to really know what you are talking about.
Furthermore, if others do not understand you, the fault almost never lies with those others.
Quote from: David R;255962Invisible ? Maybe in Australia but certainly not in the States or even here in Malaysia. You are not aware of the references in pop culture to the hobby ?
It's pretty tiny, let's be honest here. We have a profile marginally higher than that of stamp collectors.
Quote from: David RIMO they are. We are generally a superficial society. Nobody really takes the time to study the issues. We see this in poilitics, the media, most everywhere. Why should it be different when it comes to gaming scene.
The deeper you can see with a glance, the less long you have to look. How perceptive do we have to be to see that these movies take different perspectives?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/05/In_cold_blood99.jpg/200px-In_cold_blood99.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/97/SawIIposter2.jpg/200px-SawIIposter2.jpg)
If you think that the general public can't tell the difference between the perspectives of those two movies just from the posters, you must have a very low opinion of the public indeed.
Quote from: David RWell yeah, I meant, talk about the games that people actually play. I mentioned Exalted and White Wolf games, both which have sexual content. Feel free to mention games that are universally mocked by most gamers or not played or games that most gamers aren't even aware off.
You're missing the point. I never said that deviant sexual stuff was part of mainstream gaming, nor that I ever expected it to be. What I said was that a nasty minority can come to represent a group as a whole to the general public - whether that group likes it or not.
We're in no danger of every D&D player putting down their minis and taking up a ball gag and nipple clamp. But that people take lonely losers at cons and supershockedegycool Forgers to represent the hobby? That's plausible. Whether it'd actually happen I can't say. But it's plausible. It's not insane.
Quote from: David RExactly, behaviour of gamers and designers. This is what I've been saying. Content does not draw as much attention as behaviour.
Absolutely. But we're told that "System Matters" - therefore content
influences behaviour. Now, I've always said people come first, and that you in the group get all the credit and the blame for everything that happens in it.
Nonetheless, game content encourages or discourages certain in-character actions. It would be hard
not to be silly in
Paranoia or
Hackmaster, for example. What's happening there is that something in the game speaks to something in the person - in those cases, humour.
No game can bring out something that wasn't already there. So if someone plays Game X and sick shit comes out, that sick shit was there already. Frankly I think some shit should stay hidden and unsaid.
Quote from: David Ryou do realize that players will do terrible stuff in games sometimes without even having to have a context.
Sure. People do nasty shit, and have nasty fantasies. Why encourage it?
Quote from: David RThese games are grim. Why is it so hard to believe that some people may actually like that.
There's grim and then there's just plain old nasty shit. They're different things.
Pundit, here are three relevant posts by Andy K.
http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=9453928&postcount=218
http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=9462155&postcount=383
http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=9462342&postcount=392
Quote from: Narf the MouseAnd, more precisely, if it was in the original, how would not including it not be a gross misrepresentation?
See, this is why I get creeped out by a lot of anime - When I learn about the stuff they take out for the NA versions.
Yeah, this is the "broad discussion of responsibility in presentation of translated and adapted works" that I alluded to.
There are a lot of problems. If you try to make a "good" adaptation out of a questionable source is the result
necessarily tainted by the source? For example, let's say someone remakes
Breakfast at Tiffany's without the appalling portrayal of Mr. Yunioshi. Should the new film suffer due to the association with the original? (I'm not saying
Breakfast at Tiffany's is a terrible movie, far from it, but you really have to make allowances for the times--and then some--when it comes to that part.)
I'd take it case by case--in this example, I'd say "no". But the objectionable element in
Breakfast at Tiffany's is peripheral to the movie as a whole. Could you "rehabilitate"
Birth of a Nation by making it an SF flick and changing a few story elements around? Sure, someone who knew nothing of the original might find nothing offensive in it, but would that make it okay? I'm not sure it would.
Beyond this issue of
association, there's also the question of whether an adaptation that merely "tones down" a fundamentally offensive element is really accomplishing anything. E.g., yeah, you've got these
undeniably problematic elements found in anime culture: stuff like gratuitous panty shots, the presentation of both obviously childlike figures in a sexualized manner, and conversely, ridiculously overdeveloped sex symbols, though often still portrayed as juvenile or submissive. (Just visit any site that sells character figurines from anime and you're bound to find examples.) Sure, there's a fine line--or is it a slippery slope--between "cute" and/or "cheesecake" and "creepy obsession"...but look: eventually you hit video games where the idea is to abduct girls on the subway and rape them (http://www.animenfo.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=217340#217340), which after a "breaking in period", they come to enjoy (http://www.animenfo.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=217369#217369).
I don't care if playing these games encourages this or that. I suppose there's a sliver of a chance that you might get a sort of knowing "campy" frisson but most likely, if you're into rape-video-games, you're messed up. Even moreso if you're an American so you don't have the excuse that "it's normalized in my culture". The same goes, to a lesser degree, for other stuff--the borderline pedophilia, the gigantic-boobed sword maidens. (If you're past your teens, heterosexual, and you can't get off to a skin mag or Cinemax, but you actually prefer these things enough to drop $70 per figurine...there's probably something wrong.)
So, if you're still with me: you've got a game, or a cartoon or whatever, and it has extreme elements. You can cut them out, sure, but in this case, the rest of the material isn't really any different from the offensive elements, it's just a lesser degree.
So now we come to
Maid. I haven't read the game, I'm not really very interested in it although I enjoy "zany" anime. But here's what I see: the example of play that was written into the original rules, and which has caused such a furore now, is like the underwater part of the iceberg. You can hide it but you know that the subgenre has a fetishistic quality beneath the surface that gives it much of its zing--and which in certain hands can lead in unpleasant directions.
Is it better to submerge that element by editing the work, or to leave it in but add some sort of commentary, in a foreword, that will help the reader understand the material without endorsing it? E.g. I think we can watch
Birth of a Nation or
The Merchant of Venice these days without being complicit in the bigotry found in those works. The same goes for other works that are,
perhaps, less obviously offensive, but in those cases it's even more important to be conscious of their shortcomings.
Still, we are talking about a game here, not an academic study. If the game can be rendered into usable form through judicious editing, maybe it'd be better to excise the offending material so it won't distract, and provide a means to access it along with commentary. I believe that's the path Andy K's currently planning.
But what do I know--I've been editing and re-editing this post for quite a while. Really I don't have any definitive answers, and I certainly don't have all the information.
Quote from: Narf the Mouse;255982It's not about huddling. It's about emerging impressions and not wishing those impressions to consist of creepy wierdos.
Newsflash: the impression is already creepy weirdos. It can only get better.
Well, then, those works certainly aren't helping.
What, exactly, is your position and aim in coming in to this discussion?
(http://www.apolitical.info/maid.jpg)
Hm. Just read a review (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/13/13988.phtml) on rpg.net.
Boils down to saying it's a light and fun comedy game - it's got a bit of sexual stuff, but "those who have enjoyed a few of the more comical (or even hardcore) hentai titles will probably find it to be laugh out loud funny like I did".
And hey, who wouldn't want to get a group of the guys together to pretend to be characters in pornography...:eek:
I think the 'hentai' part says all I need to know about it.
No, not in a good way.
Quote from: Age of Fable;255996Boils down to saying it's a light and fun comedy game - it's got a bit of sexual stuff, but "those who have enjoyed a few of the more comical (or even hardcore) hentai titles will probably find it to be laugh out loud funny like I did".
As it happens, on Saturday I ended up talking about
Maid with most of the players who were in my earlier
Sailor Moon campaign (minus one since she moved out of town some time ago). Apparently they'd happily jump at the chance to try out this game, too.
Quote from: Narf the Mouse;255992What, exactly, is your position and aim in coming in to this discussion?
Killing time while waiting for a bus. What's yours?
Believe I've stated it, but essentially that 'creepy wierdos' and 'creepy wierdo games' are harmful to the hobby.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;255983It's pretty tiny, let's be honest here. We have a profile marginally higher than that of stamp collectors.
*shrug* I don't know what to say. First you say the hobby is invisible, then you say we have a profile marginally higher than that of stamp collectors. My point is, that our behaviour is noticed. And yeah even the content of our games - see the whole demon & magic fiasco of
AD&D 2E.
QuoteThe deeper you can see with a glance, the less long you have to look. How perceptive do we have to be to see that these movies take different perspectives?
If you think that the general public can't tell the difference between the perspectives of those two movies just from the posters, you must have a very low opinion of the public indeed.
Well maybe the popularity of the
SAW movies says something about the public. Or the hypocrisy when it comes to the acceptability of violence when it comes to a movie like say
The Passion of the Christ and the outrage when it comes to the evils of most Hollywood product. But your analogy isn't really appropriate.
Let's take the impression that is left when a non gamer sees a
Mongoose cover (a woman with her legs spread and only a tiny piece of cloth covering her promised land) and say for instance the cover of
WFRP. Which do you think gives gaming a bad rep?
QuoteYou're missing the point. I never said that deviant sexual stuff was part of mainstream gaming, nor that I ever expected it to be. What I said was that a nasty minority can come to represent a group as a whole to the general public - whether that group likes it or not.
Again who exactly are these deviants, kyle. Some games from the Forge are pretty lame IMO, but are you saying like the Pundit is, that they want to destroy the hobby. I mentioned
Black Tokyo a
d20 game. I hardly think this kind of stuff is mainstream or that they - products and gamers - represent or could ever represent the hobby.
QuoteWe're in no danger of every D&D player putting down their minis and taking up a ball gag and nipple clamp. But that people take lonely losers at cons and supershockedegycool Forgers to represent the hobby? That's plausible. Whether it'd actually happen I can't say. But it's plausible. It's not insane.
Well most of the bad behaviour comes from players of mainstream games. They are the most visible ones. Again, I get the impression you want to chase the whole Froge and Storygamer crowd out of the hobby, while most of the examples of stupid shit happening at Cons are from mainstream gamers. I'm not saying that the Froge crew are any better....bad behvaiour is bad behaviour, no matter where it comes from.
QuoteAbsolutely. But we're told that "System Matters" - therefore content influences behaviour. Now, I've always said people come first, and that you in the group get all the credit and the blame for everything that happens in it.
I don't care what we're told. But I do agree that we are all responsible for our own actions or in this case game play.
QuoteNonetheless, game content encourages or discourages certain in-character actions. It would be hard not to be silly in Paranoia or Hackmaster, for example. What's happening there is that something in the game speaks to something in the person - in those cases, humour.
And what does it say of gamers who seek out the bleakness of
Unknown Armies or
Midnight or
Kult or most any
White Wolf game? I mean seriously kyle, is this the argument now ? You are what you play....
QuoteNo game can bring out something that wasn't already there. So if someone plays Game X and sick shit comes out, that sick shit was there already. Frankly I think some shit should stay hidden and unsaid.
Well, I did say that the main question (never mind the fact that we obviously disagree on what exactly gives the hobby a bad rep) was,
should certain subject matter be off limits in gaming ?
QuoteSure. People do nasty shit, and have nasty fantasies. Why encourage it?
Who said anything about encouraging it. Do the games I mentioned encourage nasty fantasies or are they just a form of escapism?
QuoteThere's grim and then there's just plain old nasty shit. They're different things.
Sure, which is why discussion to sort out the grim from the plain old nasty is important. Don't you think ?
Regards,
David R
Quote from: Elliot WilenStill, we are talking about a game here, not an academic study. If the game can be rendered into usable form through judicious editing, maybe it'd be better to excise the offending material so it won't distract, and provide a means to access it along with commentary.
Of course you can do that, but I preffer non-castrated stuff, even if it's sick.
Quote from: Fritzs;255790Do you think, that RPGs are endangered and they need our protection?
No. I don't think the introduction of new and unwelcome - to those already in the hobby - elements will bring about the end of roleplaying...although they may well bring about an evolution of mainstream roleplaying into things we don't like. Nevertheless, some will remain, playing in the old way, about the old things, while the "hobby" progresses without us.
Whatever. I don't really care. Maybe next year, every single RPG on the market will be Maid or Fatal or Racial Holy War. That's not going to stop me or mine from playing, and it's not going to stop any of you from playing. Maybe in 100 years, no one will be playing OD&D, because everyone is roleplaying My Favorite Hentai; that's not really a concern of mine. Media change, and change again, and evolve in ways its original adherents don't like. I don't really care.
Quote from: Age of Fable;255996Boils down to saying it's a light and fun comedy game - it's got a bit of sexual stuff, but "those who have enjoyed a few of the more comical (or even hardcore) hentai titles will probably find it to be laugh out loud funny like I did".
It's worth noting that the word "hentai" actually means
pervert in Japanese.
"Those who have enjoyed pervert titles..."
Just so I'm absolutely clear on this...
does it specifically say you can be an under-age character?
do the seduction rules address the characters' ages?
I mean, you can do creepy things with any system, there's a big difference between the rules allowing something and the rules being written for something. Eg d20s Use Rope skill & grapple rules could be used to enable people to play rapists, but no one condemns d20 for that.
Quote from: Narf the Mouse;256001Believe I've stated it, but essentially that 'creepy wierdos' and 'creepy wierdo games' are harmful to the hobby.
You realize you're perilously close to sounding and acting just like the thing you're afraid of right?
Seriously folks if you're worried about a few goofballs ruining your hobby you may need to prioritize how you spend your time-more time gaming, less time worrying.
Quote from: David R;256002*shrug* I don't know what to say. First you say the hobby is invisible, then you say we have a profile marginally higher than that of stamp collectors.
Which is as close to invisible as anyone can really get. Let's not split fine semantic hairs, here.
Quote from: David RWell maybe the popularity of the SAW movies says something about the public.
They're doing pretty well, especially compared to their budgets. And yes, it says something about the part of the public which enjoys them. It says that the public find strong violence, sadism, misogyny and empathy with murderers far more acceptable, indeed even enjoyable, compared to ten or twenty or more years ago.
I don't dispute that the public has a
nasty streak - not the majority, but certainly enough for some people to make a living serving them this stuff up - only that they're
stupid. They have a pretty good idea of what they're being served up.
Quote from: David RLet's take the impression that is left when a non gamer sees a Mongoose cover (a woman with her legs spread and only a tiny piece of cloth covering her promised land) and say for instance the cover of WFRP. Which do you think gives gaming a bad rep?
As I said, I don't think covers have much effect. I agree with you that the behaviour of people is much stronger in creating images of the groups involved.
Quote from: David RAgain who exactly are these deviants, kyle.
We've seen the actual play reports of many such games. So - those players. Go back and look at old threads, there was no chance of my meeting and playing with them so I didn't bother memorising their names.
Quote from: David RSome games from the Forge are pretty lame IMO, but are you saying like the Pundit is, that they want to destroy the hobby.
Where did I say that?
I said their deviant desires expressed in games
might harm
the image of the hobby, or
might not, but
certainly wouldn't
help it.
Quote from: David RI hardly think this kind of stuff is mainstream or that they - products and gamers - represent or could ever represent the hobby.
Yes, thank God it never happens that the actions of a tiny minority of fucksticks come to make people outside that group view the whole group as just like those fucksticks.
Quote from: David RAgain, I get the impression you want to chase the whole Froge and Storygamer crowd out of the hobby, while most of the examples of stupid shit happening at Cons are from mainstream gamers.
The thing is that in mainstream games, stupid shit is neither encouraged nor discouraged; in these games, it's encouraged. It's a bit like the difference between basketball and rugby and the number of bruises you can expect to get - in either game, a player can just up and smack someone in the head if he wants to, but since rugby is
designed to have people bashing into each-other, the head punches are
far more likely to show up there.
So, you know, everyone's heard the stories of the woman gamer who games for the first time and another PC rapes her character, and the GM, giggling, makes her roll a save vs pregnancy. This shit is far more likely when you get xp for it, as in
Poison'd. When someone is a deviant fuck in a game of (say) D&D, we can just write it off as, "well, that's just one guy, every place has one..." That's a bit harder with some of these games. I mean, just look at AndyK defending
Maid (http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=9453928&postcount=218).
Quote from: Andy Kit's not girl-on-girl sexual abuse there, however humiliation is involved, nudity is involved,
So girls are stripping each-other naked and humiliating each-other, but it's not sexual at all. Yeah, okay.
Quote from: Andy KErr, it's not "child abuse traits". I don't mean that in a "NAMBLA Apologist" way, either. But, you're right, we should have perhaps posted a sidebar stating that this could be platonic, etc, and doesn't mean actual sexual stuff.
A completely non-sexual relationship where an adult dominates a child dressed in a maid uniform, and... er... where's Mythusmage? He'd love this.
[quote-Andy K]There's a moment where two characters (one, a cyborg who appears to be of age 11) almost exchange a kiss, but given the context of the game, it's not humiliating, abusive, etc. I hope that those give a clearer picture of what the game is about.[/quote]
Underaged cyborgs
almost getting it on? What the fuck?
Fucked-up shit can appear anywhere, absolutely. I know, I've seen it a lot. But there's a difference when it's designed into the game.
Quote from: David RAnd what does it say of gamers who seek out the bleakness of Unknown Armies or Midnight or Kult or most any White Wolf game? I mean seriously kyle, is this the argument now ? You are what you play....
Yes, the way you play is an expression of you. And many of those games give rather mixed messages - like UA, its combat chapter begins with this lecture on "killing is bad, m'kay?" and then gives you a list of 72 different types of firearms and 97 different types of ammo - compared to 80 or so example skills, only 24 or so of which were described beyond their title. So, what are the authours really telling us? They're rather confused. And they're not the only ones.
Quote from: David RWell, I did say that the main question (never mind the fact that we obviously disagree on what exactly gives the hobby a bad rep) was, should certain subject matter be off limits in gaming ?
Again, it's not the subject matter itself, but its treatment.
For example, in this evening's game session the PCs finally caught up with a bomber. He was in a university chemistry faculty using the fumehood to prepare his nerve gas. He'd been stumbled on by a young woman tutor and her boyfriend, and he and his sidekick bound them both, and he raped the woman then shot them both.
He's a nasty bastard.
But this all happened out of the sight of the PCs. They didn't get to hear descriptions of it happening live, and it certainly didn't happen to any PCs, they just came up to the guy and realised what had happened. So - nasty shit was in the campaign, but the PCs weren't the criminals or the victims, and nobody had to sit through hearing about it.
So I think virtually anything is fair to put in an rpg session. But where the PCs are the people
doing or suffering truly nasty things, or where the GM gets his jollies describing the nasty shit while the players squirm - nope, wrong way, go back.
Quote from: GrimGent;255998As it happens, on Saturday I ended up talking about Maid with most of the players who were in my earlier Sailor Moon campaign (minus one since she moved out of town some time ago). Apparently they'd happily jump at the chance to try out this game, too.
Cool. Be sure and say
Quote from: the rpg.net reviewI sure am a lucky master… Oh, and we get to determine your uniform colors. I like my pure sexy maids to wear… brown.
There's nothing the ladies like better.
OK, that's the review and not the rules of the game, but you've got to admit that a fell air hangs over the whole thing?
Quote from: Age of Fable;256022OK, that's the review and not the rules of the game, but you've got to admit that a fell air hangs over the whole thing?
Eh, more accurately that's the reviewer flippantly joking about a randomly generated character which isn't quite turning out as he expected, not a GM talking to anyone else at the table. Like everything else, whether a given group chooses to turn up the dial on romance or naughtiness is a decision left entirely up to the players.
In
Sailor Moon, the relationship between Usagi Tsukino and Mamoru Chiba drives the storyline, and Makoto Kino's ex-boyfriends are a running joke throughout the show. Both of those girls are
thirteen as the first season of the series begins. They are also fully statted out and playable in the
SM RPG. Would that be a problem for you?
QuoteIs the hobby really THAT fragile?
For almost thirty-five years gaming has remained impervious to the daily harm even the weirdest slice of it's demographic inflicts. Beyond that it's been banned at schools, linked to devil worship and cited along with heavy metal music as the inspiration for a number of murders and suicides. It has survived bad press on a scale so massive as to leave the whole "Maid controversy" in the dust. This is a non-issue for 99.99% of
the hobby, let alone those few moral guardians who still can be bothered to keep tabs on it.
Quote from: Kyle AaronSo I think virtually anything is fair to put in an rpg session. But where the PCs are the people doing or suffering truly nasty things, or where the GM gets his jollies describing the nasty shit while the players squirm - nope, wrong way, go back.
Badwrongfun argument is bad. Who are you to tell me how to play my game...?
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;256015It's worth noting that the word "hentai" actually means pervert in Japanese.
"Those who have enjoyed pervert titles..."
The comparable Chinese adj. would be 'bientai', literally "twisted type". I prefer another noun 'silang', which means a snake-y character. Which pretty much describes all that tentacle-sex shit.
Kellri: Don't compare snakes to disgusting tentacle rape... snakes are cute, unlike tentacle rape.
Quote from: GrimGent;256027Eh, more accurately that's the reviewer flippantly joking about a randomly generated character which isn't quite turning out as he expected, not a GM talking to anyone else at the table. Like everything else, whether a given group chooses to turn up the dial on romance or naughtiness is a decision left entirely up to the players.
In Sailor Moon, the relationship between Usagi Tsukino and Mamoru Chiba drives the storyline, and Makoto Kino's ex-boyfriends are a running joke throughout the show. Both of those girls are thirteen as the first season of the series begins. They are also fully statted out and playable in the SM RPG. Would that be a problem for you?
Erm...but they're not having sex with their boss to get favour are they? Surely having a specific mechanic where that can happen is at least a bit 'off'?
Quote from: Drew;256030For almost thirty-five years gaming has remained impervious to the daily harm even the weirdest slice of it's demographic inflicts. Beyond that it's been banned at schools, linked to devil worship and cited along with heavy metal music as the inspiration for a number of murders and suicides. It has survived bad press on a scale so massive as to leave the whole "Maid controversy" in the dust. This is a non-issue for 99.99% of the hobby, let alone those few moral guardians who still can be bothered to keep tabs on it.
Quoted for truth.
Quote from: Age of Fable;256039Erm...but they're not having sex with their boss to get favour are they? Surely having a specific mechanic where that can happen is at least a bit 'off'?
Well, I'd say that remains a distinct option in any game with relationship mechanics and rules for resolving seduction attempts, and it's worth keeping in mind that "seduction" doesn't automatically lead to
sex as such. The only difference with
Maid is that a single NPC's favour becomes all-important to the exclusion of everything else: the same could happen in any RPG that emphasizes one relationship over all others. Even
Sailor Moon has a history of redeeming villains like Nephrite through love, although that isn't represented by a stat in the system.
Quote from: Drew;256030For almost thirty-five years gaming has remained impervious to the daily harm even the weirdest slice of it's demographic inflicts. Beyond that it's been banned at schools, linked to devil worship and cited along with heavy metal music as the inspiration for a number of murders and suicides. It has survived bad press on a scale so massive as to leave the whole "Maid controversy" in the dust. This is a non-issue for 99.99% of the hobby, let alone those few moral guardians who still can be bothered to keep tabs on it.
Except devil-worship and heavy metal are
cool with the youngsters these (those?) days. I am pretty sure there was never a similar widespread perception about molesting an 11 year old in a maid outfit with a broomstick.
In other words, the more devil-worshippy it was, the more separated from their parents' worldview they were, which made them happy. I am pretty sure more 11-year-old-maid-molesty-ness won't have the same response.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;256021Which is as close to invisible as anyone can really get. Let's not split fine semantic hairs, here.
I'm not. I'm just amused that you continue to maintain that as a hobby we are invisible despite the numerous references to the hobby in mainstream pop culture.
QuoteAs I said, I don't think covers have much effect. I agree with you that the behaviour of people is much stronger in creating images of the groups involved.
Well I think behavior leaves a much stronger impression but I do think that dodgy covers contibute to the negative perceptions of gamers.
QuoteWe've seen the actual play reports of many such games. So - those players. Go back and look at old threads, there was no chance of my meeting and playing with them so I didn't bother memorising their names.
And you haven't read what some people do in their mainstream games ? There's a thread on tBP which asked
what's the worst thing your character has ever done in a game?, believe me the responses were pretty shocking.
Now of course I realize there are gamers out there who are sickos, no doubt about it, but would you call people who play
Dogs in the Vineyard,
Steal Away Jordan or
Grey Ranks, deviants ?
I have said (here and tBP) that I thought the promotional tactic for
Poison'd was pretty dumb and didn't really explain what the game was about. I have no doubt that the game is pretty bleak but considering the subject matter and the author's past work this really does not surprise me.
QuoteWhere did I say that?
You implied it in response to my comment about the hostility the Froge and gamers who play Forge games get around here.
QuoteI said their deviant desires expressed in games might harm the image of the hobby, or might not, but certainly wouldn't help it.
And what exactly are these deviant desires ? With
Maid I can see what you mean. The
Poison'd APs were a stupid promotional stunt. What about the other games that supposedly harm the hobby ? Can you give me a couple of other examples.
QuoteYes, thank God it never happens that the actions of a tiny minority of fucksticks come to make people outside that group view the whole group as just like those fucksticks.
Well it happens kyle, but is it happening here ? Are these games to blame or do mainstream gamers bring it upon themsleves. How many non-gamers have heard of the Froge ? How many have witnessed the stupid shit that gamers do in public ?
QuoteThe thing is that in mainstream games, stupid shit is neither encouraged nor discouraged; in these games, it's encouraged. It's a bit like the difference between basketball and rugby and the number of bruises you can expect to get - in either game, a player can just up and smack someone in the head if he wants to, but since rugby is designed to have people bashing into each-other, the head punches are far more likely to show up there.
Well here's the thing kyle. IMO it's not about encouragement it's about context. Surely in a game about violence , the characters will be violent.
QuoteSo, you know, everyone's heard the stories of the woman gamer who games for the first time and another PC rapes her character, and the GM, giggling, makes her roll a save vs pregnancy. This shit is far more likely when you get xp for it, as in Poison'd.
From what I have read of
Poison'd it's a little bit more complicated than that.
And it's far more likely to happen because that's what the game is about. That's what I meant by context. And really kyle, do I have to remind you that women complaining that their characters getting raped has a long shameful tradition in mainstream gaming. And the games didn't even call for it. Gamers cooked this up all by themselves.
QuoteWhen someone is a deviant fuck in a game of (say) D&D, we can just write it off as, "well, that's just one guy, every place has one..." That's a bit harder with some of these games. I mean, just look at AndyK defending Maid (http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=9453928&postcount=218).
So girls are stripping each-other naked and humiliating each-other, but it's not sexual at all. Yeah, okay.
A completely non-sexual relationship where an adult dominates a child dressed in a maid uniform, and... er... where's Mythusmage? He'd love this.
[quote-Andy K]There's a moment where two characters (one, a cyborg who appears to be of age 11) almost exchange a kiss, but given the context of the game, it's not humiliating, abusive, etc. I hope that those give a clearer picture of what the game is about.
Underaged cyborgs almost getting it on? What the fuck?
Like I said compared to something like
Black Tokyo this game seems rather tame. Personally I don't get the appeal, but I understand why some would consider it deviant.
QuoteFucked-up shit can appear anywhere, absolutely. I know, I've seen it a lot. But there's a difference when it's designed into the game.
So games like
Vampire,
Werewolf etc are deviant ?
QuoteYes, the way you play is an expression of you. And many of those games give rather mixed messages - like UA, its combat chapter begins with this lecture on "killing is bad, m'kay?" and then gives you a list of 72 different types of firearms and 97 different types of ammo - compared to 80 or so example skills, only 24 or so of which were described beyond their title. So, what are the authours really telling us? They're rather confused. And they're not the only ones.
Maybe you are right kyle. Maybe people who play
White Wolf games are deviants. People who play
UA are confused. People who play
CoC are obsessive. Maybe the only sane functional people are those that enjoy heroic fantasy and
D&D - 3e of course. Or maybe just maybe how you play is an expression of what you consider escapism and really has nothing to do with you. A person may like violence in movies but in real life is repulsed by it.
QuoteAgain, it's not the subject matter itself, but its treatment.
You keep saying this. But at the same time you throw around term like emo tourism, misery tourism etc when it comes to difficult subject matter.
QuoteSo I think virtually anything is fair to put in an rpg session. But where the PCs are the people doing or suffering truly nasty things, or where the GM gets his jollies describing the nasty shit while the players squirm - nope, wrong way, go back.
You are aware that PCs doing or suffering truly nasty things can be part of a gaming experience which has nothing to do with either party - GM or players -getting their jollies but rather just the kind of entertainment they enjoy ?
Regards,
David R
Quote from: droog;255981I have to explain myself so much these days. Come back, Pierce Inverarity! Come back, Settembrini! All is forgiven!
If you weren't bent on identifying yourself as the inside, huddling together against outside impressions, you wouldn't be so worried about how people see 'the hobby'.
You see roleplaying games in general as a sci-fi bookstore, while I see no reason why they can't cover every topic covered by the novel and then some. And authors like Stephen King and Bret Easton Ellis seem to be moderately successful in their respective niches. The mainstream is already there.
Droog, you're so estranged from the fucking mainstream that you wouldn't recognize it if it slept with you're sister.
And of course, most of the time, that's something you take glee in. As if its somehow an accomplishment to be someone incapable of acting normally in regular society. Most of the time, when you're not trying to win points by pretending that child rape is the mainstream, of course.
RPGPundit
Quote from: David R;256047I have said (here and tBP) that I thought the promotional tactic for Poison'd was pretty dumb and didn't really explain what the game was about. I have no doubt that the game is pretty bleak but considering the subject matter and the author's past work this really does not surprise me.
From what I have read of Poison'd it's a little bit more complicated than that. And it's far more likely to happen because that's what the game is about. That's what I meant by context. And really kyle, do I have to remind you that women complaining that their characters get raped has a long shameful tradition in mainstream gaming. And the games didn't even call for it. Gamers cooked this up of it all by themselves.
It was no promotional tactic - it is what the game promotes, results in and was designed for.
As such, and as a strident believer in system matters, Vincent Baker is as responsible for what happens at the table as the players themselves.
If you're an author of a book or a film and you tackle a controversial subject, you are trying to affect folks perceptions. It's non-interactive. You can employ narrative tricks to baffle that perception. If you are an author of an RPG, an interactive medium, and you are an acolyte of system matters, you are trying to affect folks
behaviour via positive reinforcment and the like. Perception and behaviour are two vastly different things.
What you choose to do with your meddling with the players behaviour says a lot. It also draws folk who
like that behaviour.
Any game can result in fucked up stuff. Reinforcing it is not only a different ball-game, it's a different sport, in a different town and wearing different clothes.
Well yes OHT, hence the bolded part of my post. I'm not really familiar with the sin rules of Poison'd, but it not as clear cut as what kyle said. The choice of good or evil is up to the player and there are consequences for both.
Regards,
David R
I agree with OHT about that.
Quote from: David R;256052Well yes OHT, hence the bolded part of my post. I'm not really familiar with the sin rules of Poison'd, but it not as clear cut as what kyle said. The choice of good or evil is up to the player and there are consequences for both.
Regards,
David R
Yeah, you can choose to be the abuser or the abused.
I cannot abide any more of this discussion that unfairly demonizes and slanders something I like.
And by that, I mean WTF is up with Kyle trashing on Saw? :D
Seriously though, the Saw movies are graphic, but they also have plots. Perhaps they may be considered sub-par thrillers (particularly the sequels), but they are still thrillers. Also, they are hardly misogynistic - most of the victims are men (with a few heroic women).
Methinks you are confusing Saw with its sleazier, brainless torture-porn imitators like Hostel.
Quote from: One Horse Town;256055Yeah, you can choose to be the abuser or the abused.
See? It's
art. ;)
Quote from: One Horse Town;256055Yeah, you can choose to be the abuser or the abused.
Well yeah, I mean there a few other options, of course, but the game is bleak.
Regards,
David R
I guess the thing that strikes me about these games is that they're not actually particularly fucked-up; they're like a parody of real evil, like someone making fun of people's perceptions of what's actually really bad. And yet, dozens of people react with fear and horror and hatred at what's ultimately about a thousand times less bad than, say, real life, much less your average hentai. I didn't know so many gamers were such...hmm. Puritans? Pussies? Moralists? I suppose it depends on how charitably you view the opinion.
I'm not surprised that you've uttered useless comment number 3, on this matter. Walkerp got there ahead of you this time, i'm afraid.
Okay OHT, I was just expressing my opinon on the subject. I didn't resort to calling anyone names and when I inadvertently did, I apologized. I'm sorry that you think my comments are useless, I guess I should have cut down on the line by line quoting.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David R;256061Okay OHT, I was just expressing my opinon on the subject. I didn't resort to calling anyone names and when I inadvertently did, I apologized. I'm sorry that you think my comments are useless, I guess I should not have done the line by line quoting.
Regards,
David R
Not you, mate! :)
I should have quoted. I was referring to Engine.
Quote from: StormBringer;256046Except devil-worship and heavy metal are cool with the youngsters these (those?) days.
What kind of douchebags do you hang out with? I mean seriously none of this stuff has ever been mainstream, which is why I'm not even in the slightest threatened by it.
Quote from: One Horse Town;256051Any game can result in fucked up stuff. Reinforcing it is not only a different ball-game, it's a different sport, in a different town and wearing different clothes.
Oh please no one here is encouraging this shit, rather several people just happen to be mentioning how they're not threatened by this sort of fringe stuff.
We get you don't like it, and find it distasteful-but christ you're starting to sound like a little kid whining about a toy that's already been replaced, that you never wanted.
Quote from: One Horse Town;256062Not you, mate! :)
Okay, my bad.
Anyways I think I'm done here. I'll leave the last word to kyle. I mostly agree with him anyway....I have a feeling I'm in for lecture.... with more pictures :D
Regards,
David R
Quote from: Serious Paul;256063Oh please no one here is encouraging this shit, rather several people just happen to be mentioning how they're not threatened by this sort of fringe stuff.
We get you don't like it, and find it distasteful-but christ you're starting to sound like a little kid whining about a toy that's already been replaced, that you never wanted.
Who said anyone here was encouraging it? Certainly not me. I haven't meant any of this to relate to people here. The only thing i'm coming at this from is the authors responsibility on how play turns out and the ways in which it can happen. Sorry if that annoys you.
Put me on ignore if you find me that tiresome.
Quote from: One Horse Town;256065Who said anyone here was encouraging it?
Perhaps I'm reading your posts, Kyle's post's and the Pundit's posts in the wrong tone, but you guys all seem to be pretty heavily implying this very thing. (To me.)
So sorry if I read it wrong.
QuoteI haven't meant any of this to relate to people here.
I never thought you did, if that helps.
QuoteThe only thing I'm coming at this from is the authors responsibility on how play turns out and the ways in which it can happen. Sorry if that annoys you.
Annoy? No. Do I disagree? Somewhat. I'd rather let my wallet do my voting, by just not supporting games I don't like. The tone, and feel of your posts, and even Kyle's seems to imply that something beyond that is needed-and I'm not so sure I'd agree.
QuotePut me on ignore if you find me that tiresome.
I've never used an IL. Seems silly to me. Just because we disagree here, doesn't mean you'll never say something I'll agree with or could use. But yeah, I have found your tone in the last few posts to be pretty petulant. *Shrugs* It happens right?
I can be petulant and maybe i have been. If so, i apolgise.
I've explained what i mean in several posts to this thread and yet the meaning still isn't getting through. I'm left with the thought that people haven't read the entirety of each of my posts, my clarity of purpose isn't as clear as i thought it was, or folk are being deliberately obtuse.
Maybe the perception is the thing, rather than the behaviour, hmm? ;)
Anyway, i'll follow David away from the thread now.
Quote from: StormBringer;256046Except devil-worship and heavy metal are cool with the youngsters these (those?) days. I am pretty sure there was never a similar widespread perception about molesting an 11 year old in a maid outfit with a broomstick.
In other words, the more devil-worshippy it was, the more separated from their parents' worldview they were, which made them happy. I am pretty sure more 11-year-old-maid-molesty-ness won't have the same response.
Yet the moral majority remains silent. Now if
D&D could be linked (spuriously or not) to molesting children with brooms then you may have a point.
Maid, like
Poison'd is too much of a fringe game for that. With the exception of a few hardcore bloggers and forum participants who keep threads like this going no one gives a fuck.
Quote from: Serious Paul;256063What kind of douchebags do you hang out with? I mean seriously none of this stuff has ever been mainstream, which is why I'm not even in the slightest threatened by it.
Well, the devil-worship stuff may not have been mainstream, but it certainly added an appeal to RPGs back in the 80s. I don't think molesting 11year olds with a broomstick has the same cache.
But heavy metal was never mainstream? Man what? Where do you live, Beethovenville?
I mean if you want to spout off nonsense, be my guest, but you are positing an argument that heavy metal is not mainstream, pretending to sexually assault an 11yr old with a broomstick isn't mainstream, so they are equivalent. And I don't think that is what you mean to posit.
But most of your arguments come down to 'my group doesn't do that, so why worry', without realizing that not everyone that role-plays is part of your group. So, while interesting, your anecdotes really don't advance or refute any particular point.
Quote from: One Horse Town;256062I should have quoted. I was referring to Engine.
In that case: Okay OHT, I was just expressing my opinion on the subject. I didn't resort to calling anyone names and if I inadvertently did, I apologize. I'm sorry that you think my comments are useless.
Devil worship and heavy metal don't necessarily go hand in hand, So, while interesting, your anecdotes really don't advance or refute any particular point.
Edit
By which I mean, maybe you're correct in identifying a small segment of the game, but you are certainly not correct in assuming it synonymous with the mainstream. Also note I made no mention of heavy metal in my previous posts, but not everyone who roleplays is into heavy metal, or even considers it a part of the roleplaying "experience".
Quote from: Engine;256073In that case: Okay OHT, I was just expressing my opinion on the subject. I didn't resort to calling anyone names and if I inadvertently did, I apologize. I'm sorry that you think my comments are useless.
:D
In that case, i apologise for being petulant.
Quote from: Drew;256068Yet the moral majority remains silent. Now if D&D could be linked (spuriously or not) to molesting children with brooms then you may have a point. Maid, like Poison'd is too much of a fringe game for that. With the exception of a few hardcore bloggers and forum participants who keep threads like this going no one gives a fuck.
It remains silent
now. I would say that has as much to do with its focus on other areas as its lack of relevance these days. When is the last time the Moral Majority spoke out about anything on the national stage?
Quote from: StormBringer;256079It remains silent now. I would say that has as much to do with its focus on other areas as its lack of relevance these days. When is the last time the Moral Majority spoke out about anything on the national stage?
Video games get their share of national-level bad press over here, as does homophobic gangster rap and various other stuff.
Quote from: GrimGent;256044Well, I'd say that remains a distinct option in any game with relationship mechanics and rules for resolving seduction attempts, and it's worth keeping in mind that "seduction" doesn't automatically lead to sex as such. The only difference with Maid is that a single NPC's favour becomes all-important to the exclusion of everything else: the same could happen in any RPG that emphasizes one relationship over all others. Even Sailor Moon has a history of redeeming villains like Nephrite through love, although that isn't represented by a stat in the system.
The same thing could happen in any RPG where the characters could be underage, could have the attribute 'Sexy', and where the game has a specific rule for how having sex with 'Master' increases your stats...which isn't really any RPG then.
Yes, you could have the same scenario in d20 (eg). But the difference is that d20 doesn't have the Lolita Feat. There's no evidence that the creators of d20 sat down and said "I think these rules are frustratingly vague when it comes to statutory rape". There is some evidence that the creators of 'Maid' thought something like that.
d20's detailed combat rules are taken to show that in d20 you're meant to be fighting things. The same logic should be applied to 'Maid'.
I don't get why this is controversial.I also don't get how you can have a review that in effect says "it's funny...you know, like pornography", and not everyone goes "OK, something's not quite right here."
Having read through my participation to this thread, i have to agree with Serious Paul.
I tried to get my point across in as clear a possible voice and hammered it home too aggressively. I was dismissive of 3 people in particular, and 3 in a less serious fashion. I feel strongly about the responsibility of the author in the likely outcomes of the games he writes. I was too strident and aggressive in making my points.
Apologies to Hinterwelt, Walkerp and Engine, in particular, and David R, Fritz and JHKim, also.
I didn't want to stifle debate, but was too intent on getting my point across.
Quote from: Drew;256082Video games get their share of national-level bad press over here, as does homophobic gangster rap and various other stuff.
From the Moral Majority?
Quote from: One Horse Town;256075In that case, i apologise for being petulant.
Not at all, good sir. You would need to produce ten thousand times more unpleasantness to even register against the ledger of content you've given to us all, myself most particularly included. Your apology is only another unnecessary and impressive positive entry in the balance sheets.
Quote from: StormBringer;256086From the Moral Majority?
Ah, I see. You're using caps to make a political observation that I as a foreigner am an unlikely to apprehend. Unlucky, I wasn't referring to your defunct political organisation.
In the UK the term has meaning, often referring to a collection of homogenous yet distinct groups that appear to share a voice, including Parent groups, certain religious organisations, prominent Members of Parliament and newspapers that maintain circulation by holding Britain to standards of moral conduct that are largely based on fear. The usual suspects, in other words.
Nice try though.
Quote from: StormBringer;256086From the Moral Majority?
Capitals imply the proper noun, but the Moral Majority ceased to exist as a proper entity in the late 80s. There is certainly still a moral majority, but that shouldn't be capitalized, lest it lead to confusion. Quotes probably wouldn't hurt, though.
[edit: Beaten to the punch. Sorry, Drew.]
Quote from: Age of Fable;256083The same thing could happen in any RPG where the characters could be underage, could have the attribute 'Sexy', and where the game has a specific rule for how having sex with 'Master' increases your stats...which isn't really any RPG then.
Practically any game that I can think of allows underage PCs, especially as a disadvantage such as "Ageism" in
Sailor Moon RPG which in the extreme cases can result in someone playing a six-year-old. Any game with player-determined traits would certainly allow someone to define a character as "Sexy", beginning with
Over the Edge (and in
Maid that's in any case just a random modifier which has less effect on actual play than, say, the Vice of Lust in
World of Darkness). And that sex with the Master may increase
Favour is simply another mechanical aspect of the most important relationship in the game. Frankly, I'm not seeing the problem with those.
Quote from: StormBringer;256079It remains silent now. I would say that has as much to do with its focus on other areas as its lack of relevance these days.
Or rather with the internet they can afford to continue to attack RPG's with out expending any real effort-simultaneously keeping the "fight alive" (So if they ever do get to be on TV again they can), and reaching just as many people as they may previously have in a much more interactive environment. (That much easier to reinforce their own self-righteous beliefs.)
So I'd say that their not silent, rather they've simply just changed their medium.
"Fear and Self-Loathing in a Lost Subculture" by RPG Pundit.
You're such a social winner you had to flee your homeland to make friends.
Kyle Aaron, have you read Maid or Poison'd?
[Probably response: "No, I don't have to. I read a post about an AP report."]
You guys are so frightened and uninformed, it's embarrassing. Look at all those media that have suffered from having tasteless or potentially shocking content: music, movies, literature, comics. How they have suffered!
Go fuck yourselves, you losers. You are the catpissmen.
Quote from: walkerp;256101Go fuck yourselves, you losers. You are the catpissmen.
Wouldn't they be the nerd-raging grognards?
So, you've read 'em both, walkerp?
And also, make up your mind, is it that people aren't informed or that they're prudes?
Personally I think there's plenty enough info on Poison'd, from the author's intent through the reception of the game by enthusiastic fans. Granted, I might be able to play the game in a non-sick way, but the stuff that been put up that's supposed to be positive examples of play? It's crap. I don't have to "tolerate" or "embrace" it any more than I have to tolerate The Turner Diaries just because I like to read books.
On Maid, again, I think the translator's intent has been misunderstood, for sure. The intent of the original is also unclear--there's bad stuff there, which Andy owns up to, but people here are assuming stuff that's much worse, without clear justification. (i.e., exactly what is going on with the broomstick--go back to the links I posted).
Anyway, turning to Fritzs, and on a similar note, the alternatives to translating/adapting a reprehensible work whole include not only expurgating it, but, of course, simply not taking on the project in the first place. Again, speaking in the general case--not specifically about Maid. If someone asked me to translate RaHoWa into another language, my response would be one of
"What exactly do you think is worth salvaging in this?"
"How do you intend to frame this, because I'm not interested in disseminating this crap for unmediated consumption? Presumably this is to aid in the study of American sickos? Or you plan to point out the faint merits of the design while disclaiming the offensive aspects of most of the work, whilst making some point about the need to let the reader make up his or her own mind?"
"No, you sicko."
[Start Sarcasm] Wow Walker, classy. Real classy. [End Sarcasm]
You know, certain games attract certain kinds of players. The genre and the rules mechanics of a game will appeal to players who are interested in those aspects. In short, you are what you play.
So, personally, I wouldn't be interested in gaming with someone who enjoyed or pushes a game where cabin boy neck rape is encouraged (Poison'd), where a major American social issue like Abortion is trivialized into a d20 supplement (Faith & Blood), or where players are supposed to be the potential victims of abusive behavior and enjoy it since that is their social station (Maid).
Quote from: Drew;256090Ah, I see. You're using caps to make a political observation that I as a foreigner am an unlikely to apprehend. Unlucky, I wasn't referring to your defunct political organisation.
And you are hiding behind a disingenuous 'foreign ignorance' that you have given lie to yourself. If you use 'moral majority' to mean Conservatives, Liberals, Tories, or whatever political/social grouping you prefer, rest assured that most here will know what you are referring to.
QuoteIn the UK the term has meaning, often referring to a collection of homogenous yet distinct groups that appear to share a voice, including Parent groups, certain religious organisations, prominent Members of Parliament and newspapers that maintain circulation by holding Britain to standards of moral conduct that are largely based on fear. The usual suspects, in other words.
Nice try though.
In the US, the term has meaning, referring to a specific group that no longer has any real voice. If you want to discuss the situation as it applies to the UK, I have no objection. I think pretty much everyone here realizes that things were never as bad overseas as they were in the US.
Nice try, though.
Quote from: GrimGent;256095Practically any game that I can think of allows underage PCs, especially as a disadvantage such as "Ageism" in Sailor Moon RPG which in the extreme cases can result in someone playing a six-year-old. Any game with player-determined traits would certainly allow someone to define a character as "Sexy", beginning with Over the Edge (and in Maid that's in any case just a random modifier which has less effect on actual play than, say, the Vice of Lust in World of Darkness). And that sex with the Master may increase Favour is simply another mechanical aspect of the most important relationship in the game. Frankly, I'm not seeing the problem with those.
Well, "Sexy" is a commonly-rolled character trait in Maid -- as I recall a 1/6th chance -- so it's not equivalent to making up your own trait of that sort in OtE. In the convention game I played, no one rolled that, and no one used any seduction rules -- but there is a definite racy theme to the game.
On the other hand, I don't recall there being anything to suggest that a PC be underage. I didn't note my character's age, and I think it is just player's choice.
Quote from: walkerp;256101"Fear and Self-Loathing in a Lost Subculture" by RPG Pundit.
You're such a social winner you had to flee your homeland to make friends.
Dude, you're really grasping, aren't you?
I am surrounded by friends, in Canada and here. So many that I'm always exhausted trying to see them all when I go back to Canada for a visit.
And unlike the Swine, my friendships aren't based on a mutual ego-wanking of pretending to be hipster beatnik "artists" or pseudo-intellectuals.
RPGPundit
Quote from: James McMurray;256102Wouldn't they be the nerd-raging grognards?
No, because the nerd-raging grognard is motivated by fear of change and resentment due to dismissal of his preferences. The catpissmen are socially underdeveloped. They are so far down on the social totem pole in real life, that they must make up false enemies on the internet to loathe and revile and put underneath them. Thus we see hear the constant and strangely hateful attacks against furries, anime fans and anyone who has stood near something that has the whiff of sexual deviancy. They don't go after LARP'ers that much, probably because they can't use the same moral fervour that they can with sub-sub-cultures that have a sexual element to them. They've learned from the christian fundamentalists who went after the hobby in the '80s that it's always a good attacking point in North America.
Ultimately, nobody gives a shit. The issue never comes up in the real gaming world. I just get worked up when I see judgemental garbage like this on this site. It makes my blood boil.
Quote from: RPGPundit;256048Droog, you're so estranged from the fucking mainstream that you wouldn't recognize it if it slept with you're sister.
My good man, the world of RPGs is not the mainstream. Mainstream people do not write extensive blog posts about the Legion of Superheroes. Mainstream people make jovial, uninformed comments about 'Dungeons & Dragons'. In my experience, mainstream people are sometimes attracted by the idea of RPGs, and subject matter of said RPGs will then depend on Mr/Ms Mainstream's tastes and personality.
It's actually my business to follow the main stream of culture and be able to relate to people of all sorts. I am, in fact, able to talk to both Catpiss Man and the tender object of his hebephilic fantasies on an equal basis (the little girls are usually better company).
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;256103So, you've read 'em both, walkerp?
No, neither. But I'll read and may end up buying Maid at some point. I have no interest in Poison'd. But I don't need to read them, because I'm not afraid of them. I know that no matter what the content, there is nothing in either that will bring the slightest harm, commercial or cultural, to our hobby.
It's those of you who are so frightened by this material that should be reading it, in order to find the offensive material, point it out to us and explain why it is dangerous.
This has not been done yet. Because everyone who is offended is approaching it with a pre-conceived emotional reaction, one that was awaiting an excuse to come out.
By the way, Elliot, 'uninformed' and 'prudish' are by no means mutually exclusive.
Neither is 'pretentious' and 'Skarka's Law'.
Droog--true. Of course prudes tend to overreact based on partial information (or downright wrong information). But let's put that aside.
walkerp keeps nattering on about the bum rap games are getting. This is true with Maid--for the most part--there may be elements that are borderline, but somewhere between cultural differences, genre tropes, and an oversight on the part of the adaptors, the game isn't as bad as it's been made out to be. Certainly not in the form that the translators intend.
(Again, I'm taking Andy's comments at face value.)
However when it comes to Poison'd, there's no denying the nature of the game because the creator and the fans come right out and say it: it's inspired by a desire to quantify depravity, and it delivers in black & white.
This isn't a bum rap, so all walkerp's left with is cries of "Prude! Censor!"
That works--to a degree. I mean, I sure don't want Ed Meese or Michael Medved telling me what to watch. Even if they don't have the coercive power of the law, or the social power to push publishers and broadcasters around (as reportedly happened with the TV show Soap), I think people like them are clownish at best.
But that has to do with what they're attacking, not with the concept of expressing extreme distaste--that is, drawing a line somewhere at what you find reprehensible.
Otherwise it's impossible to discuss what's acceptable, and you are indeed on the slippery slope to rape video games. Why shouldn't they be translated? I'll bet there's a market.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;256015It's worth noting that the word "hentai" actually means pervert in Japanese.
It's not really worth noting. Most Japanese anime & manga terms have different (often very different) meanings in Western translation & fandom. Mecha, kawaii, otaku, yaoi, yuri, ecchi for example. Hentai wouldn't be the proper term in Japan, but outside of Japan it would be. More accurate terms like H or ero haven't caught on in the West.
This does highlight the issues and difficulty of a translated game however. There seems to have been something of a rush to release at Gencon. Translations should not be rushed if possible.
Which leads me to:
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;256021where the GM gets his jollies describing the nasty shit while the players squirm
From the Maid RPG Google Group:
Quote from: Andy K"Creepy sexy"... it's just not what the game is about, or what the author was meaning to write. Because of differences in cultural references, language, conversation and the like, we found that a lot of words, sentences, or even concepts that would be "funny sexy" in Japan, came out as simply "creepy sexy". This is the kind of stuff that would, if dropped, bring uncomfortable silence to a game, perhaps shutting it down for good. Maid isn't a fetish game to be used to get all aroused in front of other players. If you see someone playing it like that, please don't get involved, just walk the fuck away: They're doing it wrong.
Quote from: James McMurray;256102Wouldn't they be the nerd-raging grognards?
NERDRAGE(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z60/clan_mum/Nerd_RAAAAAAGE_by_IronShrineMaiden.jpg)
Quote from: walkerp;256101Look at all those media that have suffered from having tasteless or potentially shocking content: music, movies, literature, comics. How they have suffered!
I have to go with Walkerp on this one.
Our hobby would be FAR better off if we spent time talking about games we do like. If you really want to marginalize a product, the best you can do is ignore it.
Threads like this one only result in selling more copies of Maid.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;256141However when it comes to Poison'd, there's no denying the nature of the game because the creator and the fans come right out and say it: it's inspired by a desire to quantify depravity, and it delivers in black & white.
Indeed. It is utterly reprehensible. There is nothing worthwhile to redeem it.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;256141However when it comes to Poison'd, there's no denying the nature of the game because the creator and the fans come right out and say it: it's inspired by a desire to quantify depravity, and it delivers in black & white.
You are driving me to spend my money on
Poison'd just so I can quote it and prove you wrong. This is a 'just so' statement, and I don't buy it. My impression is rather different.
Go ahead and buy the game, I'm sure you can prove me trivially wrong by rigging things a certain way. Heck, I wrote upthread that I reckoned I could play a non-messed-up version of the game.
If you like you can split hairs over the nature of the game per se versus the inspiration and intention of the author, and the play reports that have appeared. I'm not especially interested in that here. The point I wish to make is that walkerp is on a slippery slope to an intellectual and moral wasteland where everything and everyone is entitled to "tolerance" and freedom from being judged--except for the "intolerant" of course.
Some idjit thinks the scene is cool where his pirate lost a fight over who'd get to rape a native girl, so he smashed her face in. That's not cool, it's messed up. (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=24763.0) So are many of the other anecdotes drawn from play of the game, which One Horse Town compiled a while back.
But somebody points that out, and all walkerp has to say is, "Prude! Censor!"
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;256153Some idjit thinks the scene is cool where his pirate lost a fight over who'd get to rape a native girl, so he smashed her face in. That's not cool, it's messed up. (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=24763.0) So are many of the other anecdotes drawn from play of the game, which One Horse Town compiled a while back.
But somebody points that out, and all walkerp has to say is, "Prude! Censor!"
This isn't the first time, either. Walkerp was spouting the same nonsense when the actual play reports of
Poison'd first came out.
QuoteGo ahead and buy the game, I'm sure you can prove me trivially wrong by rigging things a certain way.
I would be willing to bet money that if I gave an unknowing person
that game and one of a number of other RPGs I can think of, that
Poison'd is not the one that will draw the most fire. Sorry, Elliot, but I just think you're wrong here, trivially or not. In the end, empirically, it's an entry in a table.
Now, I've seen a bloke in real life smash a door over a game of D&D. I've known people to break down in tears (and not in a good way) and go into screaming rages over other games of that type. I don't know about you, but a fictional representation of terrible violence disturbs me less than real world domestic violence.
On the other hand, I've also seen quite a few fictional atrocities in games like D&D and RQ.
However, I'm not drawing some tenuous line from that to saying that D&D and RQ are bad influences on players and the RPG industry/hobby/clubhouse.
Also let me point out that Quentin Tarantino made overdosing and shooting people in the toilet cool...if you look at it like that.
My wife, as it happens, can't stand Tarantino, and I'd feel that she had a stronger moral basis on which to pursue this line.
Quote from: droog;256158Also let me point out that Quentin Tarantino made overdosing and shooting people in the toilet cool...if you look at it like that.
I think that's a stretch. He may have made those situations
entertaining in
Pulp Fiction, but he didn't make them cool.
There's also the vicariousness of watching a movie and the more immediate experience of role-playing, when comparing a movie to an RPG, those situations. The "RPGs are like movies" analogy breaks down when you differentiate between people who would want to vicariously watch a disturbing scene well portrayed in a movie and the people who would want to role-play that same disturbing scene at the game table.
Quote from: droog;256157Now, I've seen a bloke in real life smash a door over a game of D&D. I've known people to break down in tears (and not in a good way) and go into screaming rages over other games of that type.
Wow. No wonder you don't have a game group. I thought it was just because you were too thespy or something. But if those were the guys I had to game with, I wouldn't game, either - and I'd also not think too ill of games named after "pervert cartoons".
And Andy K is full of shit. My woman's a Japanese-English translator, and works for a Japanese company, so we meet
lots of Japanese people - and that stuff is
not regarded as "funny sexy", but as perverted. Women see men on trains reading those books, and say to themselves, "I better move away, that's the sort of guy who's going to grope me on this train." Andy K was obviously getting his impression of the perception of the stuff in Japan from the people who produce it.
Quote from: jeff37923;256159I think that's a stretch. He may have made those situations entertaining in Pulp Fiction, but he didn't make them cool.
See, you're nearly there. Now you just have to get over the idea that RPGs are necessarily different.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;256161Wow. No wonder you don't have a game group. I thought it was just because you were too thespy or something. But if those were the guys I had to game with, I wouldn't game, either - and I'd also not think too ill of games named after "pervert cartoons".
You make very silly attacks. I don't think I can even be bothered with this one.
Quote from: droog;256162See, you're nearly there. Now you just have to get over the idea that RPGs are necessarily different.
That would be a tough one to get over since the entertainment of a movie is experienced very differently from the entertainment of a RPG.
Quote from: jeff37923;256165That would be a tough one to get over since the entertainment of a movie is experienced very differently from the entertainment of a RPG.
Why, yes, so it is. A movie is also different from a book. And a book is different from a stained-glass window.
Different media have different characteristics. Who would have thought?
Quote from: droog;256163You make very silly attacks. I don't think I can even be bothered with this one.
It's not an attack. It's an expression of pity. You've gamed with people who crack the shits over a game and start punching stuff up. And now you don't have a game group, and if those are the ones you've got to choose from, I don't blame you. You poor bastard.
And beyond pity, it's a discussion of perspective. I mean, games are games - they're designed to be
played. Ages ago on some GURPS mailing list, S John Ross observed that he could always tell the difference between questions which came up from play, and questions which came up just from reading the books and thinking about stuff. And that's something we see a lot in discussions about rpgs, the play perspective vs the... I dunno, Platonic Ideal Perspective, or something.
From the Platonic Ideal Perspective, any game is playable with any group in any setting and with any playstyle, and things like how many miles a day people can hike for months on end actually matters, and 9mm vs 44 actually matters, and Intelligence-Poor barbarians, their players should not be allowed to come up with complex plans (which never work in play anyway) since "your character wouldn't think of that" - and from the same perspective, these games are playable and worthy of note. Because all this stuff is REALLY IMPORTANT, we think - when we're not playing, and are just looking at our books.
But when you look at these things from the play perspective, well... I just couldn't get any gamer I've known and played with to even try this shit out. And these guys even play my fucked-up homebrews, so they're pretty easy-going and open-minded. Hell, some of them even play
Rifts. But they'd reject
Maid or
Poison'd. That tells you something about the "mainstream" Pundit was talking about earlier.
I guess we're just not supershockedgeycool enough.
Quote from: droog;256157I would be willing to bet money
Sorry, you'll have to bankroll this one yourself. But go ahead and do it already, if you can. I don't know how close you'll be able to get to a really unbiased test but here's what I'd look for in a professional study.
1. Don't throw two games at the same group and ask them to compare them. Throw one game at group A and one at group B, then compare the results of play, for each. (Ideally you'd have a bunch of groups and randomly assign them to each game.)
Point of this: see if the games differentially induce certain content, when played by average people.
2. As a separate test, gather a large group of people, let them read each game, and then let them select which one to play in. Again, compare the results of play.
Point of this: see if the games differentially attract people who are inclined to use them for certain content.
QuoteSorry, Elliot, but I just think you're wrong here, trivially or not. In the end, empirically, it's an entry in a table.
Well, at some point I suppose that until you engage in real testing, or have something to bring to the discussion other than special pleading, you can "just think I'm wrong" all you want, and I don't give a damn.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;256167It's not an attack. It's an expression of pity. You've gamed with people who crack the shits over a game and start punching stuff up. And now you don't have a game group, and if those are the ones you've got to choose from, I don't blame you. You poor bastard.
No, dude--it's a PA. You don't know who or when I'm talking about, you're just lashing out in hopes you'll find a target.
I can get into several games if I want to, but I'm happier spending time with people who share my habits and tastes. Is that fairly easy to understand, or would you like me to put it another way?
QuoteI guess we're just not supershockedgeycool enough.
Now, this is just whining. Firstly, it seems from your use of the subjunctive that you haven't actually tried to get a game of these going (and it would be difficult as you haven't got the games, I suppose). Secondly, I know people who would try
Poison'd without question.
Maid, perhaps not, but the women might surprise me.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;256168Well, at some point I suppose that until you engage in real testing, or have something to bring to the discussion other than special pleading, you can "just think I'm wrong" all you want, and I don't give a damn.
It's not special pleading. It's abundantly clear that D&D (and others) produce exactly what you guys are pleased to call 'fucked-up play'. The evidence is punching you in the nose--given the long history and popularity of D&D it's absolutely more abundant for this game in particular (cf. about half a dozen play reports, not all with neck-raping). It's you who's engaging in special pleading, and it's about your resentments with the Forge.
There are some very good arguments to be made against
Maid (ha), but they tend to be feminist arguments, and the feminists on this forum could be counted on one hand. And woe betide the old-schooler if he opens that can of worms.
Quote from: Spinachcat;256146Our hobby would be FAR better off if we spent time talking about games we do like. If you really want to marginalize a product, the best you can do is ignore it.
I agree with you here, although I think Walker does a piss poor job of saying this-if nothing else his attempts to one up people are sort of pathetic. But I agree-I use my wallet to express my opinions on games. I don't like it, I don't buy it. I don't play it. That simple.
QuoteThreads like this one only result in selling more copies of Maid.
You really think so? This forum is really such a marginal place-I mean so many people are so active in the hobby at a level, that as far as I can tell isn't really all that common in real life.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;256153The point I wish to make is that walkerp is on a slippery slope to an intellectual and moral wasteland where everything and everyone is entitled to "tolerance" and freedom from being judged--except for the "intolerant" of course.
I know I'm not Walker, but this has provoked a lot of thought on my part. While I think you're correct at times, I think this is a temporal condition at best. Were that to change, then I'd whole heartedly agree with you.
Quote from: droog;256157Now, I've seen a bloke in real life smash a door over a game of D&D. I've known people to break down in tears (and not in a good way) and go into screaming rages over other games of that type.
These people had problems long before they got involved with gaming, and would have problems regardless of the hobbies they choose to pursue. I think people fail to get that at times. Unstable people who have mental deficiencies are generally not good at...well pretty much anything, whether it's RPG's or body boarding.
It's not the game, it's the person. (Or as we said in the marine Corps it's not the dope on the weapon, but rather the dope behind it.)
QuoteHowever, I'm not drawing some tenuous line from that to saying that D&D and RQ are bad influences on players and the RPG industry/hobby/clubhouse.
I love you, and wish to subscribe to your emailed pictures. :D
Quote from: droog;256157On the other hand, I've also seen quite a few fictional atrocities in games like D&D and RQ.
However, I'm not drawing some tenuous line from that to saying that D&D and RQ are bad influences on players and the RPG industry/hobby/clubhouse.
And you're right not to draw that line; you're missing a substantive difference between D&D/RQ and Poison'd/Maid.
D&D and RQ are systems that can be used to tell pretty much any story the players want. The stuff out of the box supports, largely, treasure-hunting in monster-infested areas. So, sure -- you *can* play atrocity-theater with D&D, but it's pretty clearly something the players brought with them.
Narrow-focus games like Maid and Poison'd are a lot more likely to result in questionable material at the table. If that stuff shows up, it's still clearly the player's decision, but the game itself builds it in (for a more apt comparison, imagine if D&D only had evil alignments and that Vile Evil book was part of the basic set).
Does the game's setting and background matter in this discussion? I think it does:
If I understand the damage-to-the-hobby argument it's that an observer (maybe an outside observer) will assume the hobby is full of miscreants or perverts based on game subject matter. If that's likely (I'm making no judgement here--judgement to follow) then a game that's wide-open is less likely to lead to assumptions of perversion than a game with a narrow, morally questionable focus.
Which explains why bringing in D&D and RQ is a non-sequitur.
---------------
My assessment about damage-to-the-hobby: Although I wouldn't rule out the possibility of the material in Maid or Poison'd resulting in some negative publicity somewhere, I think that most people are likely to find roleplaying of any kind
childish -- 'let's pretend' with dice and character-sheets.
I doubt the majority of folks truly outside the hobby are going to pay close enough attention to distinguish between D&D and Maid.
To the extent that any kind of game damages the hobby, I think games that take themselves too seriously are more likely to lead to ridicule than games that have an obviously lighter touch. On that scale, I suspect Japanese Anime Maids and Wizards and Elves are fairly harmless and Pirates-as-a-metaphor-for-a-dysfunctional-family-really-deep-stuff-seriously-it-was-like-psychology-no-I'm-not-kidding-with-Pirates! is more likely to result in howls of laughter.
Although I haven't read Maid and it could potentially be full of pedophilia, I'm betting it's basically harmless (it's also Japanese, which provides another layer of defense: I think outsiders are less likely to condemn yet-more-weirdness-from-Japan than they would home-grown stuff like RaHoWa or FATAL or whatever).
Cheers,
-E.
Quote from: droog;256172given the long history and popularity of D&D it's absolutely more abundant for this game in particular (cf. about half a dozen play reports, not all with neck-raping).
Can you please explain how this is different from saying that truck drivers have a more dangerous job than fishermen, since more truck drivers die in a year than fishermen? (Note: in the US there are about 60 times as many truck drivers as fishermen.)
Of course D&D has more incidents, but what proportion of D&D play is fundamentally screwed up compared to Poison'd--that ought to be your question, I believe.
Quote from: -E.;256190Narrow-focus games like Maid and Poison'd are a lot more likely to result in questionable material at the table.
However I think they show up at far fewer tables. I mean seriously until I started posting here I'd never heard of either, and I've gamed for two decades. And I try to snag new stuff all the time, even if I don't play it.
QuoteI doubt the majority of folks truly outside the hobby are going to pay close enough attention to distinguish between D&D and Maid.
I think I'd take it a step further. Most people outside the hobby don't care about the hobby period. And their exposure to a game like "Maid" would be sheer shit luck, and certainly infinitely less likely than running across a D&D book at Barnes and Nobles, or something.
I think some people are way over estimating the effect these goofy ass games can have.
QuoteTo the extent that any kind of game damages the hobby, I think games that take themselves too seriously are more likely to lead to ridicule than games that have an obviously lighter touch.
I think the same thing about the players! :)
Quote from: droog;256172It's abundantly clear that D&D (and others) produce exactly what you guys are pleased to call 'fucked-up play'.
Or products. From upthread: from the start at Blackmoor (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=255881&postcount=44) on. Including the origin of Swine! ;)
(http://www.lotfp.com/images/dump/oldschool.gif) (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=255889&postcount=49)
The recently released old-school supplement to OD&D, Supplement V: Carcosa (http://knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=4951) is solidly based on pre-1984 D&D, with Deities & Demigods (early printings), Tekumel's Book of the Ebon Bindings, and the art of Erol Otus as prime gaming sources. Literary sources that are part of the bedrock of RPGs, the likes of H.P. Lovecraft, Robert E. Howard, Clark Ashton Smith, and Michael Moorcock. Solidy grounded stuff, direct from D&D's heart.
Carcosa, among many other "weird" things, has a PC class, Sorcerer, that uses human sacrifice to help power most of its spells. Children, exotic (including illegal) ingredients, torture & violence (both physical and / or sexual) are often involved.
"If any one is put-off by this sort of amoral cruelty and cold-bloodedness, Supplement V: CARCOSA probably won't be to his liking." - Geoffrey McKinney
Now I respect the author and his admiration to his sources. Yet I find this just as potentially offputting or moreso as anything in Maid. But Carcosa is a direct production from D&D & its roots. And is certainly not meant to be played as a light-hearted comedy game.
Quote from: Spinachcat;256146Threads like this one only result in selling more copies of Maid.
And more blog posts, some of which will be recycled back to here in about a year's time. :pundit:
This is why I called Pundit's actions like this a Mr. Hyde to Ron Edward's Dr. Jekyll. :hatsoff:
Quote from: -E.;256190On that scale, I suspect Japanese Anime Maids and Wizards and Elves are fairly harmless and Pirates-as-a-metaphor-for-a-dysfunctional-family-really-deep-stuff-seriously-it-was-like-psychology-no-I'm-not-kidding-with-Pirates! is more likely to result in howls of laughter.
If you introduced any game like that you'd get laughs, I imagine. But have you tried? I've drawn interest with
My Life with Master,
Bacchanal,
It Was A Mutual Decision and
Wuthering Heights. I think
Poison'd might be a tough sell for some of the people I'm thinking of, but it's the pirates rather than the atrocities, I'm afraid.
Maid, on the other hand, I can only think of one woman who is likely to want to try, and she's definitely kinky.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;256191Of course D&D has more incidents, but what proportion of D&D play is fundamentally screwed up compared to Poison'd--that ought to be your question, I believe.
Logic-chopping, Elliot. Can you deny that there is highly visible 'fucked-up play' at all levels in D&D?
Quote from: Casey777;256196Now I respect the author and his admiration to his sources. Yet I find this just as potentially offputting or moreso as anything in Maid. But Carcosa is a direct production from D&D & its roots. And is certainly not meant to be played as a light-hearted comedy game.
Yeah, it is really hard to read around all the stuff from that supplement that made it into every edition of the PHB that followed.
Oh, wait, that didn't have happened because
Carcosa was only released last fucking week.
Someone could write up
Paedophiles and Pederasty tomorrow as a direct production of 'D&D & its roots', but that would still mean someone currently wrote a fucked up set of rules by extending a ruleset
that contained no such mechanics. They are
added on because there is nothing in the original rules to support them.
Did you seriously think for even a second that writing a supplement which features* a sodomy table, or charts for how many children should be molested and tortured to death to summon a demon
over 30 years after the original was published is, in any way, a reflection of the original rules?
*
examples are not necessarily indicitive of the content of the linked material. I haven't read it, I can't comment on the supplement. They are examples only.
Quote from: Serious Paul;256192However I think they show up at far fewer tables. I mean seriously until I started posting here I'd never heard of either, and I've gamed for two decades. And I try to snag new stuff all the time, even if I don't play it.
I think I'd take it a step further. Most people outside the hobby don't care about the hobby period. And their exposure to a game like "Maid" would be sheer shit luck, and certainly infinitely less likely than running across a D&D book at Barnes and Nobles, or something.
I think some people are way over estimating the effect these goofy ass games can have.
I think the same thing about the players! :)
Pretty much agree with all of this, I think the relative obscurity of the material only matters for some versions of the damage argument.
If the damage comes from people looking for (physical) evidence (e.g. Actual Play reports, rules books, etc.) then yeah -- the existence of narrow-focus, perverted games do the damage.
If the damage comes from actual human interaction with roleplayers, then
a) The rules are much less relevant than the actual demeanor of the people involved (System Doesn't Matter) (i.e. if you sit down at a con and play Poison'd with a bunch of cool, non-throat-raping-people, I doubt most folks will walk away with an impression of roleplayers as raging perverts)
b) The fact that no one knows about these games makes it less likely that you'll run into someone pushing them
Can someone making the damage argument clarify how it happens?
Cheers,
-E.
Quote from: droog;256205Logic-chopping, Elliot. Can you deny that there is highly visible 'fucked-up play' at all levels in D&D?
I'll deny it. Unless by 'fucked up' you are referring to petty theft and going up from there.
The rest of us are using 'fucked up' to mean molesting children. Point out the pages in either the DMG or the PHB in any edition where there is a trait or characteristic similar to 'Likes them Young'.
Elliot and I are bantering more about Poison'd than Maid.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;256141This isn't a bum rap, so all walkerp's left with is cries of "Prude! Censor!"
This is a misreading of my position, and I suspect a deliberate mislabelling. If someone were to say, "I find the topics in Maid and/or Poison'd to be offensive and it's not something I really want to play" and then I were to criticize them, that would be a fair case of me doing the above. But I have no problem with someone saying that. That's their personal judgement.
What I am objecting to, is taking that personal judgement to a level of prescription for the entire hobby. RPGPundit and Kyle Aaron are saying "these games are morally reprehensible and they should be expunged from our hobby and the people that play them should also be expunged from our hobby." Note that they don't actually give any specifics on how they can be expunged. But that is the implication. What they want is some kind of safe, middle ground (as defined by them) of content which offends nobody and keeps the hobby safe from outside criticism.
I have already gone into why they want this (their own social insecurities, basically). Basically, they feel that it is okay for them to decide what games fall outside the boundaries of what is "proper" (a word Kyle actually used) and to expect that those games and the players that like them be driven out of the hobby.
I argue primarily that their entire position is based on a deliberately exaggerated misreading of the content (as has already been established with Maid and is most likely the case with Poison'd). I don't want to get into the next level of argument (whether roleplaying out immoral acts is not as bad as actually doing them or not) because then we go into off-topic, but it has been my experience that the roleplaying of immoral subject matter, if it even exists, is so inconsequentially small that it doesn't even touch the hobby and certainly nobody outside of it even has a clue.
I feel that the fear-mongering and hate that is their reaction is far more negative to the hobby than any vaguely sexually or morally deviant gaming that might go on in a session of Maid or Poison'd.
Can somebody show me an actual example of a single negative thing that has actually happened to the gaming scene because of these games? A single newbie who was turned off who would have otherwise been into it? A single individual feeling bad and freaked out because of these games?
I knew a girl back in '81 whose chr got killed in her first session of D&D. She never played again!
Quote from: droog;256203If you introduced any game like that you'd get laughs, I imagine. But have you tried? I've drawn interest with My Life with Master, Bacchanal, It Was A Mutual Decision and Wuthering Heights. I think Poison'd might be a tough sell for some of the people I'm thinking of, but it's the pirates rather than the atrocities, I'm afraid.
Maid, on the other hand, I can only think of one woman who is likely to want to try, and she's definitely kinky.
My point wasn't that these games are un-sell-able -- I have no problem imagining how someone could present all of those games in a way that was intriguing.
Also, to be clear: I have no problem (moral, aesthetic, or otherwise) with what people do in the privacy of their own (or their parent's) basements. I wouldn't necessarily think of less of someone for playing Poison'd.*
But part of the "damage" argument (as I understand it) hinges on publishing something -- either a rules-set, an Actual Play report, or just gaming in public. My "too serious" comment was aimed at some of the Poison'd discussion where the tawdry, exhibitionistic and frankly repulsive Actual Play was defended as being a serious examination of a dysfunctional family (or something -- it's been awhile).
Cheers,
-E.
*There are games I would think less of someone for playing -- that racist holy war game, for example... or anything that trivializes real-life atrocities
Quote from: StormBringer;256206Yeah, it is really hard to read around all the stuff from that supplement that made it into every edition of the PHB that followed.
Oh, wait, that didn't have happened because Carcosa was only released last fucking week.
but that would still mean someone currently wrote a fucked up set of rules by extending a ruleset that contained no such mechanics. They are added on because there is nothing in the original rules to support them.
I suggest you go read the blog for Carcosa where the author gives examples from Deities & Demigods, Book of Ebon Bindings etc. including rules that were direct inspirations on his work. Or go over some of the novels & stories cited by the author and listed in my previous post. Or the examples from First Fantasy Campaign (Blackmoor) and OD&D upthread. Or take a look at Margaret Brundage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Brundage#Reception)'s Weird Tales covers. All that's 20+ years old.
Quote from: walkerp;256214What I am objecting to, is taking that personal judgement to a level of prescription for the entire hobby. RPGPundit and Kyle Aaron are saying "these games are morally reprehensible and they should be expunged from our hobby and the people that play them should also be expunged from our hobby." Note that they don't actually give any specifics on how they can be expunged. But that is the implication. What they want is some kind of safe, middle ground (as defined by them) of content which offends nobody and keeps the hobby safe from outside criticism.
Please, walker, don't misinterpret me! I am certainly not saying that what I want is a hobby that offends nobody and is safe from outsider criticism.
I just want the right people offended and criticizing it.
Like you, for example.
If, on the other hand, it offends people who aren't social retards, or brings legitimate criticism from people who were part of the hobby and now feel they have to leave it because it has become rife with Lawncrappers (rather than insipid pseudo-intellectuals and people who have no real interest in regular roleplaying), then there's a problem.
RPGPundit
I really hope that the hobby isn't that fragile. Yet games like Maid or Posion'd do shed a bad light and bring negative press to the RPG world. Sure RPGing may not seem too mainstream, but because it isn't mainstream, people think they can get away with bringing those elements into this media.
I understand that other media display this content already but like OHT said...this is an interactive media, and involves an intentional effort to create the offensive material
Sure, sure...I know...no one wants to be censored, but rape, molestation, and abortion are pretty bad elements to bring into gaming. (Even though sexual content was brought into the game before.)
We are role playing these games, and what better way to get your rocks off without really being noticed, yet advertising it enough to bring in more sick fucks to add to the coarsening of the hobby.
Quote from: -E.;256207Can someone making the damage argument clarify how it happens?
Cheers,
-E.
I'll take a stab at it, but I don't wholly support the argument:
GenCon '07, big table, lots of people playing a translated anime game. Someone sits in, and gets to play some goofy servant who runs around making sure the mischievous sentient cats don't interrupt an important business meeting, or have to cover up for the malfunctioning robot butler. Good fun is had by all, and I doubt the promoters point out there is a trait called 'Likes them Young'.
Fast forward four months, player is familiar with said game, and perhaps a few others. A group is advertising in the area for another couple of players for a campaign.
Maid is tops on the list, but maybe some
Poison'd. Well, our example player hasn't heard of
Poison'd, but if it's anything like
Maid it should be pretty fun, right?
Naturally, this group doesn't turn out to be as light-hearted as the demo at GenCon. Now this player has a skewed view of the hobby because of this group. It would hardly take more than one session of D&D with a similar group murdering children and raping their way across the countryside to turn them off to RPGs, and encourage them to badmouth RPGs to anyone they come in contact with.
Or so the argument runs in my mind. Others may not agree on all the points, but certainly, this would be the heart of the matter to me. Word of mouth is always touted as far more powerful than any advertising scheme.
Quote from: Casey777;256221I suggest you go read the blog for Carcosa where the author gives examples from Deities & Demigods, Book of Ebon Bindings etc. including rules that were direct inspirations on his work. Or go over some of the novels & stories cited by the author and listed in my previous post. Or the examples from First Fantasy Campaign (Blackmoor) and OD&D upthread. Or take a look at Margaret Brundage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Brundage#Reception)'s Weird Tales covers. All that's 20+ years old.
There are stacks and stacks of porn books from the 60s and 70s I could also cite as 'inspiration' for an olde school styled supplement about bad moustaches and anal sex. That doesn't change the fact that
none of that is present in the original rules
and you are a disingenuous fuck for implying that it is.
Quote from: StormBringer;256225I'll take a stab at it, but I don't wholly support the argument:
...
Or so the argument runs in my mind. Others may not agree on all the points, but certainly, this would be the heart of the matter to me. Word of mouth is always touted as far more powerful than any advertising scheme.
Yeah, I can see what you're saying. I kinda like Maid as a gateway drug to harder, more heinous stuff!
However, I think the issue here isn't a rules-set damaging the hobby (or at least to one person's experience of it) -- it's a bunch of jerks doing the damage. And they could (and likely would) do that damage with any set of rules.
Also, hopefully, someone familiar enough w/ RPG's to attend a convention would be aware that they'd detoured into a subculture cul-de-sac, and would (hopefully) be able to find their way back to the main drive (Enworld ;) ).
Cheers,
-E.
Quote from: StormBringer;256225I'll take a stab at it, but I don't wholly support the argument:
GenCon '07, big table, lots of people playing a translated anime game. Someone sits in, and gets to play some goofy servant who runs around making sure the mischievous sentient cats don't interrupt an important business meeting, or have to cover up for the malfunctioning robot butler. Good fun is had by all, and I doubt the promoters point out there is a trait called 'Likes them Young'.
Fast forward four months, player is familiar with said game, and perhaps a few others. A group is advertising in the area for another couple of players for a campaign. Maid is tops on the list, but maybe some Poison'd. Well, our example player hasn't heard of Poison'd, but if it's anything like Maid it should be pretty fun, right?
Naturally, this group doesn't turn out to be as light-hearted as the demo at GenCon. Now this player has a skewed view of the hobby because of this group. It would hardly take more than one session of D&D with a similar group murdering children and raping their way across the countryside to turn them off to RPGs, and encourage them to badmouth RPGs to anyone they come in contact with.
Or so the argument runs in my mind. Others may not agree on all the points, but certainly, this would be the heart of the matter to me. Word of mouth is always touted as far more powerful than any advertising scheme.
This is just pure speculation, right? It didn't actually happen and it certainly won't. I mean you can barely find a game of Savage Worlds in most towns amidst the sea of 4e games.
Quote from: walkerp;256231This is just pure speculation, right? It didn't actually happen and it certainly won't. I mean you can barely find a game of Savage Worlds in most towns amidst the sea of 4e games.
It's as speculative as the stories of a group of players stating their characters gang rape the only female player's character.
In other words, you are looking for names, addresses, times, and sworn affidavits. They don't exist. That doesn't mean there aren't some sick fucks out there with these games enabling their sick fuckery and helping them foist it on an unsuspecting new gamer.
Quote from: StormBringer;256236In other words, you are looking for names, addresses, times, and sworn affidavits. They don't exist. That doesn't mean there aren't some sick fucks out there with these games enabling their sick fuckery and helping them foist it on an unsuspecting new gamer.
Sure but it doesn't mean that there are either.
Quote from: StormBringer;256227There are stacks and stacks of porn books from the 60s and 70s I could also cite as 'inspiration' for an olde school styled supplement about bad moustaches and anal sex. That doesn't change the fact that
none of that is present in the original rules
and you are a disingenuous fuck for implying that it is.
uhhh, 3 of the 4 things in the graphic I posted are from the original 1974 rules... one was from the third (1976?) supplement.
Deities and Demigods is a D&D supplement. Book of Ebon Bindings is for a 1970s D&D variant. Surely I don't need to explain the relevance of Blackmoor... and surely the importance of Weird Tales as a direct and primary inspiration for D&D doesn't need to be explained?
Carcosa will be arriving in my mailbox any day now, so I haven't read it, but I have had some correspondence with the author (since I've got a similar project in the works). He's taking some prime source inspirations from D&D and highlighting their horror aspects.
Quote from: RPGPunditI just want the right people offended and criticizing it.
And who si going to decide who's right and who's wrong... apparently mighty tzar Pundy the great... You are so full of shit it must be leaking from your ears.
Quote from: StormBringer;256227none of that is present in the original rules
and you are a disingenuous fuck for implying that it is.
It is interesting how Carcosa's associations by you got worse & worse despite you not really looking up any of the information on it. :teehee: Similar to how some (not necessarily you) have done with Maid. :hmm: I have stated that I respect the author; I'll likely get Carcosa, though like Maid (and many other RPGs) I do think it could produce fucked up play.
Carcosa has at least as much relation to D&D / EPT & its sources (like ones listed in the back of the ODAD&D DMG) as Maid RPG has to its sources though one is a homage, the other a parody, and both are recent releases.
However since you're wearing wideass blinders that weigh a T
mf & obviously aren't bothering to read a thing I've linked to or look at the covers and art from OD&D and Tekumel books, good night and may God bless. :hatsoff:
Quote from: Venosha;256224We are role playing these games, and what better way to get your rocks off without really being noticed,
You mean like these guys (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7521044027821122670)?
Quote from: droog;256205Logic-chopping, Elliot.
No. No, no, no. Unless you're trying to make some sort of sly point about screwed-up logic yourself.
There might be a rich discussion to be had about the inherent influence of various media. I doubt you're aiming at that, but I don't think one can seriously dismiss the effect, on content, of painting, writing, the printing press, photography, the motion picture, radio, television, or the Internet.
D&D puts the power of shared imagination in the hands of people, some of whom (many of them adolescents) do messed-up things with it. I'm sure Poison'd shares this quality--I mean that it gives people an opportunity to act out fantasies in an imagined world. This is an inherently risky activity whatever RPG you're playing.
It could even be influenced by the setting. Certainly D&D has trappings which evoke atavistic psychologies, and the settings are typically anarchic. I suspect that this contributes to a higher incidence of "screwed up" games than, say, a modern or SF game, though I don't have numbers to cite. It could be that the rate of "screwed up" games of Star Frontiers is just as high as D&D, but the relative numbers are such that the Star Frontiers screwups never make it onto the radar. Still, I find it very plausible that, especially in the immature or ignorant mind, the pseudo-medieval setting would be imagined as lacking social inhibitions and controls that would still be present in a modern or classic SF setting.
But Poison'd, by all appearances, embraces an equally bleak view of its setting, in fact plays it up to make pirate society one where no social standards can be taken for granted. It's a projected fantasy of a state of nature.
We could try to argue whether the imaginary setting offered by the game is more or less "inherently" atavistic, brutal, and anarchic than that offered by D&D--since neither of us has read Poison'd, I doubt this would get very far. And D&D is a very broad field, from the various editions of rules themselves, to the various official and semi-official settings materials. I think there were phases where there was a strong element of romanticized medievalism instead of projected atavism; the latter was stronger in the earlier history of the game than it perhaps was in the middle years. But I think what was going on in the core materials was rather like the whitewashed version of pirates that Vincent Baker commented on when was talking about his inspiration for Poison'd. That is, D&D in the 70's embraced the naughty, ne'er-do-well, picaresque, bawdy (etc.) elements of 20th-century adventure fiction from Howard, Leiber, Vance, Errol Flynn movies, etc., and from earlier sources such as the Odyssey, Le Morte D'Artur and so forth, but it swept the uglier or more problematic aspects under the rug, such as Howard's racism, the pedophilia* in the Lankhmar stories, or the absolute amorality of Vance's Cugel.
That's all by way of talking frankly about D&D. Again, I can only give impressions of the content of Poison'd, the rule book, based on snippets I've gleaned. My main point here is that in terms of its treatment of its imaginary setting, Poison'd does at least as much to foster atavism.
Given that, we move on to the truly empirical. And here the record weighs very strongly to suggest there's something about Poison'd, more than D&D, which doesn't just enable the acting out of screwed up fantasies, but invites it, and even encourages reporting those fantasies in public. Of course I'm referring to the actual play reports which have been posted. D&D has a huge corpus of accounts of play, and I think it would be very hard to argue that the screwed up accounts are anything but dwarfed by the "okay" stuff. Not to mention, most of messed-up game sessions are ascribed to adolescents or presented as negative examples of play. Whereas in the case of Poison'd, the screwed up reports are a significant proportion of the accounts, and they're often met with enthusiasm by other fans of the game.
In conclusion, if you really do want to argue about the association of D&D with tasteless play vs. Poison'd, and their relative appeal to twisted tastes, then the Poison'd side starts at a significant disadvantage, and that is the side where the burden of proof lies.
*Though that didn't really become apparent until "Rime Isle" (1977) and "The Mouser Goes Below" (1988).
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;256254In conclusion, if you really do want to argue about the association of D&D with tasteless play vs. Poison'd, and their relative appeal to twisted tastes, then the Poison'd side starts at a significant disadvantage, and that is the side where the burden of proof lies.
It's just not a matter of proof. We're talking about perceptions. D&D: highly visible.
Poison'd: not so much. You need to clean up your backyard, Elliot.
It occurred to me that this is kind of the flipside of Chris Chinn complaining about essentialism and stereotyping in RPGs while buying and playing
Legend of the Five Rings.
Quote from: walkerp;256214If someone were to say, "I find the topics in Maid and/or Poison'd to be offensive and it's not something I really want to play" and then I were to criticize them, that would be a fair case of me doing the above. But I have no problem with someone saying that. That's their personal judgement.
What I am objecting to, is taking that personal judgement to a level of prescription for the entire hobby. RPGPundit and Kyle Aaron are saying "these games are morally reprehensible and they should be expunged from our hobby and the people that play them should also be expunged from our hobby." Note that they don't actually give any specifics on how they can be expunged. But that is the implication. What they want is some kind of safe, middle ground (as defined by them) of content which offends nobody and keeps the hobby safe from outside criticism.
I have already gone into why they want this (their own social insecurities, basically).
I just want to say this last sentence is absurd. However I mainly want to talk about what you wrote above.
I agree that it's inappropriate to speak for the entire hobby. (By the way, I think I've said as much earlier in the thread.)
However, I think in the process of this discussion if not before "the hobby" has become vastly overrated as a concept. If my opposition to censorship of books makes it impossible for me to publicly reject, insult, decry, and ridicule fans of
The Turner Diaries, because I have no business speaking for the "book reading hobby", then I don't give a damn about the hobby. When the topic of virulently racist books, or rape video games, or RPGs that revel in vileness comes up, then if I feel like it I'll speak as a human being, not "a gamer" to say they're messed up. People who expose their fantasies in public do not, as a rule, have a right to hear only "awesome" feedback.
Quote from: droog;256257It's just not a matter of proof. We're talking about perceptions. D&D: highly visible. Poison'd: not so much. You need to clean up your backyard, Elliot.
It occurred to me that this is kind of the flipside of Chris Chinn complaining about essentialism and stereotyping in RPGs while buying and playing Legend of the Five Rings.
The connection seems quite feeble to me.
And ultimately I'm not seeing compelling in your first sentence either. RPGs are inherently risky. The biggest RPG is going to have the most incidents; more sick images are going to be transmitted by DVD and CD-R than minidisc.
I think you're on a bit of a side track. I don't think you can reasonably deny (and you haven't) that the texts and play that have come down to us have left racism, sexism and perversion in their wake. Intent or not, I know what I've seen.
I stack up against that my actual reading of several Vincent Baker games, my experience of playing them with reasonable, well-socialised human beings, my knowledge of VB gleaned by internet use, and my informed guess (bolstered by other people's accounts) as to what lies within the text. I think half the text has probably been reproduced here and there, if you cared to read it.
I really think you've got to understand the role controversy and mock outrage has played in this whole imbroglio. I mean, according to Spinachcat the famed neck-raping incident never even happened (well, it never actually happened in the first place, but you know what I mean).
Quote from: droog;256262I think half the text has probably been reproduced here and there, if you cared to read it.
Yeah, it has. The application of the central mechanics to things you'd find in most other games seems to be confusing people, whilst using that central mechanic to gain the outcomes seen in APs doesn't seem to need any clarification by people playing the game.
Quote from: GrimGent;256095And that sex with the Master may increase Favour is simply another mechanical aspect of the most important relationship in the game. Frankly, I'm not seeing the problem with those.
(http://www.apolitical.info/maid2.jpg)
Okay, that's it. You idiots have made me buy the Poison'd PDF. Joke's on you, I think.
Quote from: Age of Fable;256264(http://www.apolitical.info/maid2.jpg)
So? Short of writing in explicit rules for underage sex, there's no way to account mechanically for the possibility that people
might play teenagers who
might end up in a raunchy scene (with the consent of everyone involved, naturally enough, and player comfort taken into consideration). That could well prove problematic if the system actually revolved around trading sex for the Master's Favour; but as things stand and with everything else that the character might do affecting Favour as well, why would you ever include anything like that in a session if you don't specifically want to? There are only young kids making out in the game if you put them there. As always, it's all about what the players bring to the table.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;256258However, I think in the process of this discussion if not before "the hobby" has become vastly overrated as a concept. If my opposition to censorship of books makes it impossible for me to publicly reject, insult, decry, and ridicule fans of The Turner Diaries, because I have no business speaking for the "book reading hobby", then I don't give a damn about the hobby. When the topic of virulently racist books, or rape video games, or RPGs that revel in vileness comes up, then if I feel like it I'll speak as a human being, not "a gamer" to say they're messed up. People who expose their fantasies in public do not, as a rule, have a right to hear only "awesome" feedback.
Sure, fine. I'm not arguing against that. You don't really seem to be listening to me, but rather just using my posts to launch off on your own argument.
Quote from: jhkim;256123Well, "Sexy" is a commonly-rolled character trait in Maid -- as I recall a 1/6th chance -- so it's not equivalent to making up your own trait of that sort in OtE.
It's somewhat more probable than that since each character receives a combination of
two Maid Types out of the six possibilities: Boyish, Cool, Heroine, Lolita, Pure, or Sexy.
For the sake of reference, this might be a good time to post a link to
the character generator (http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/maidrpg.html) which someone mentioned on another board...
And again, I note that the game is based on a genre of cartoons called pervert cartoons.
Nothing more need be said, really.
Quote from: Serious Paul;256192I think I'd take it a step further. Most people outside the hobby don't care about the hobby period. And their exposure to a game like "Maid" would be sheer shit luck, and certainly infinitely less likely than running across a D&D book at Barnes and Nobles, or something.
Incidentally, there is a copy of the Book of Erotic Fantasy at the nearest Borders to me. Still, no
Maid though. (shrug)
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;256273And again, I note that the game is based on a genre of cartoons called pervert cartoons.
But not all anime/manga about maids are hentai, even if someone with a maid fetish would get a kick out of them. Just about the only manga of this type that I've actually read is
Emma, brought up earlier in the thread, and there's nothing "perverted" about it: the local library carries the Finnish translation of the series on the shelves of both the adult and children's sections.
You know, what puzzles me is the way in which some many posters at this site seem to have without a second thought associated
Maid with
Poison'd while no one has so much as mentioned
Paranoia (or any other comedy game, for that matter). "Players are supposed to be the potential victims of abusive behavior and enjoy it since that is their social station?"
It's the sexual thing that freaks out their puritan natures, GrimGent.
Here's the character I generated:
QuoteYour name is Kiko. You are 18 years old. You have metallic eyes and beige hair, and wear an indigo maid uniform. You are boyish and childlike; others describe you as sweet, young and a tomboy.
You are not human, but rather a human-looking robot, with a number of overtly artificial features. You are exceptionally quiet, with a cool, subtle demeanor.
In combat, you wield a whip, a cat-'o-nine-tails, metal whip or the like. When you are extremely upset, you use anything you can lay your hands on to run around destroying things around the mansion.
I find that pretty compelling! What combats do you get into in this game that would take place in a mansion that has a robot maid? I'm more intrigued than I was.
Quote from: GrimGent;256272It's somewhat more probable than that since each character receives a combination of two Maid Types out of the six possibilities: Boyish, Cool, Heroine, Lolita, Pure, or Sexy.
OK, so, 11 out of 36 chance of being a Lolita (slightly higher if doubles are re-rolled) + specific mechanisms for gaining XP by having sex with the Master + kid, apparently a player-character, on the cover = my 'puritan nature' is 'freaked out'.
Here's Emma:
(http://z.about.com/d/manga/1/0/_/C/-/-/emma1_500.jpg)
(http://www.comicsreporter.com/images/uploads/emma01.jpg)
Looks pretty racy, not. But wait, I found this:
(http://dearauthor.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/emma-vol-4-181.png)
My God, it's Mills and Boon!
Quote from: Age of Fable;256287OK, so, 11 out of 36 chance of being a Lolita (slightly higher if doubles are re-rolled) + specific mechanisms for gaining XP by having sex with the Master + kid, apparently a player-character, on the cover = my 'puritan nature' is 'freaked out'.
The "Lolita" type means nothing more than that the maid is childlike, naive and innocent in personality: it's not connected to actual age. Your character could be a sixty-old-year Lolita if you prefer, in other words. Also, under the basic core rules and without the use of special abilities, the Master hands out Favour as he wills. You can gain the same "XP" just by being really good at polishing the silverware.
Quote from: GrimGent;256289The "Lolita" type means nothing more than that the maid is childlike, naive and innocent in personality: it's not connected to actual age. Your character could be a sixty-old-year Lolita if you prefer, in other words. Also, under the basic core rules and without the use of special abilities, the Master hands out Favour as he wills. You can gain the same "XP" just by being really good at polishing the silverware.
Uh, if that's what they intended to mean, then somebody made a really big translation error because in US English the word "lolita" is pretty much used exclusively to refer to a highly-sexualized pubescent girl (or someone who can pass for under 18).
what jgants said. With added skepticism that a competent translator would make such an error.
EDIT: according to Wikipedia, "the phrase lolita complex or lolicon is popular in modern-day Japan to refer to a prurient interest in actual or (more commonly) manga or anime depictions of young girls. There is also a style of dress in Japan, often worn by Visual Kei musicians and their fans, called 'Lolita' that is intended to evoke the look of a young girl. Lolita clothing styles range from Classic Lolita or Gothic Lolita to Sweet Lolita or 'Ama Lolita.'"
and everyone in 'Maid' seems to dress the same, so that can't be what it means.
Quote from: GrimGent;256289Also, under the basic core rules and without the use of special abilities, the Master hands out Favour as he wills. You can gain the same "XP" just by being really good at polishing the silverware.
Uh-huh. And
with the use of special abilities you, ie your Sexy Lolita ten-year old character that other people describe as curvy, can get XP by having sex with the Master, right?
Quote from: Casey777;256246However since you're wearing wideass blinders that weigh a Tmf & obviously aren't bothering to read a thing I've linked to or look at the covers and art from OD&D and Tekumel books, good night and may God bless. :hatsoff:
No, no, I have read and seen all of that. You are trying to say that Carcosa is some direct re-print or exact copy of elements in the original rules, and I am here to tell you that despite your insistence that sick fuckery be tolerated, the only correlation between the drawing of an Amazon baring her breasts and the number of children that need to be molested and murdered to summon a demon
exists entirely in your head.
Quote from: walkerp;256282It's the sexual thing that freaks out their puritan natures, GrimGent.
Yes, because no one has thought to mention that
pretending to sexualize an eleven year old is a problem. Only Puritans have a problem with that, because they are prudes trying to censor
Art.
Quote from: Age of Fable;256296Uh-huh. And with the use of special abilities you, ie your Sexy Lolita ten-year old character that other people describe as curvy, can get XP by having sex with the Master, right?
Practically everything involving romance or sex is strictly optional and at player discretion, including the Comfort and Seduction rules. Special abilities would include tricks like "Passionate Gaze" which earns the maid a few points of Favour just for looking at the Master in a certain way, at the cost of some additional Stress. Also, Favour functions more like drama points than experience during play, as it's spent for rerolls and triggering random events.
Quote from: jgants;256291Uh, if that's what they intended to mean, then somebody made a really big translation error because in US English the word "lolita" is pretty much used exclusively to refer to a highly-sexualized pubescent girl (or someone who can pass for under 18).
Hey, if you wish to suggest a reprint which replaces the term with "Innocent" or "Ingenue" or some such, go right ahead. But the Maid Types still have no bearing on the character's age: she can be as young or old as you want.
Quote from: JimLotFP;256244uhhh, 3 of the 4 things in the graphic I posted are from the original 1974 rules... one was from the third (1976?) supplement.
And? Are you also going to conflate 'inspiration from' with 'present in'?
QuoteDeities and Demigods is a D&D supplement. Book of Ebon Bindings is for a 1970s D&D variant. Surely I don't need to explain the relevance of Blackmoor... and surely the importance of Weird Tales as a direct and primary inspiration for D&D doesn't need to be explained?
Scantily clad women leads to sexualizing children?
QuoteCarcosa will be arriving in my mailbox any day now, so I haven't read it, but I have had some correspondence with the author (since I've got a similar project in the works). He's taking some prime source inspirations from D&D and highlighting their horror aspects.
This is how your argument runs: An authour claims inspiration from a few boob shots and some text about demons, therefore, pre-pubescent tentacle rape has been present since the original rules! Why is everyone being a prude?
Quote from: GrimGent;256302Hey, if you wish to suggest a reprint which replaces the term with "Innocent" or "Ingenue" or some such, go right ahead. But the Maid Types still have no bearing on the character's age: she can be as young or old as you want.
I think that is the critical part.
Quote from: StormBringer;256304I think that is the critical part.
And Rook Catchfly from
Nobilis remains "eternally underage" which mostly poses a problem because she has a terrible crush on a man who never even realizes her feelings since in his eyes she's just a child. Playing teenagers or even younger characters than that isn't unprecedented, as said before.
Quote from: StormBringer;256298Yes, because no one has thought to mention that pretending to sexualize an eleven year old is a problem. Only Puritans have a problem with that, because they are prudes trying to censor Art.
I was about to say. You don't need to be a puritan to find this a bit creepy.
But then, like other games that evoke a big brouhaha over being "oh so edgy", I expect this game is a flash in the pan. Threads like this only delay their inevitable demise.
So, do any of you spend this much time campaigning against actual child abuse against actual children? It just strikes me that the level of outrage and disgust conveyed here give the impression that some of you must be ultra-dedicated champions of anti-abuse activities, if the fantasy version sets you off in such a way. How much time this week did you spend keeping real-world children from being abused? As much, or more, than you spent complaining about a game in which it is possible for underage children to experience sexual activities?
Quote from: Age of Fable;256264(http://www.apolitical.info/maid2.jpg)
Exactly!
RPGPundit
Quote from: GrimGent;256269So? Short of writing in explicit rules for underage sex, there's no way to account mechanically for the possibility that people might play teenagers who might end up in a raunchy scene (with the consent of everyone involved, naturally enough, and player comfort taken into consideration). That could well prove problematic if the system actually revolved around trading sex for the Master's Favour; but as things stand and with everything else that the character might do affecting Favour as well, why would you ever include anything like that in a session if you don't specifically want to? There are only young kids making out in the game if you put them there. As always, it's all about what the players bring to the table.
"Likes 'em Young"?
RPGPundit
That random Maid generator is very interesting. You can randomly generate a 10-year old Sexy Maid who has a transparent uniform, freckles, smokes, has the quality of "former prostitute", and has the "stress" that "when she's extremely upset, will drink alcohol or drugs until she can't remember anymore".
Yes, this sounds like a perfectly wholesome game.
Quote from: RPGPundit;256313"Likes 'em Young"?
...Which leaves it completely up to the players to decide what "young" means and never mentions any age range. 16, 18, 20? It's your choice.
(As for the generator, if you didn't switch off the "darker relationship" option, then that was your choice too.)
Quote from: GrimGent;256289The "Lolita" type means nothing more than that the maid is childlike, naive and innocent in personality: it's not connected to actual age. Your character could be a sixty-old-year Lolita if you prefer, in other words. Also, under the basic core rules and without the use of special abilities, the Master hands out Favour as he wills. You can gain the same "XP" just by being really good at polishing the silverware.
That's bullshit and you know it. Yes, the "lolita" concept isn't specifically tied to age or indicating that someone is underage, but it is connected with being "childlike". Its childlike dress and attitude. So yes, you could be a sixty-year old lolita if you looked like you were were prepubescent and acted childlike.
And of course, its not just "childlike". Its "childlike and sexy".
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;256316And of course, its not just "childlike". Its "childlike and sexy".
Not according to those Types. A "Lolita & Pure" character could be a perfectly wholesome nun.
Quote from: GrimGent;256315...Which leaves it completely up to the players to decide what "young" means and never mentions any age range. 16, 18, 20? It's your choice.
(As for the generator, if you didn't switch off the "darker relationship" option, then that was your choice too.)
Dude, I really don't think you're going to be able to argue this game doesn't have sexual overtones, including ones that are perverse. Its based on hentai, for christs' sake, and they admit it right there.
Your arguments look pathetic: the very fact that there is a "Darker relationship" option makes it clear that the game is a game with significant sexual overtones, including "dark" ones.
RPGPundit
Quote from: droog;256265Okay, that's it. You idiots have made me buy the Poison'd PDF. Joke's on you, I think.
This kind of thing makes me thing I should make Squirrels: Bust a Nut.
Topical to the thread: Try minding your own morals, not your brothers.
Bill
Quote from: Engine;256307So, do any of you spend this much time campaigning against actual child abuse against actual children? It just strikes me that the level of outrage and disgust conveyed here give the impression that some of you must be ultra-dedicated champions of anti-abuse activities, if the fantasy version sets you off in such a way. How much time this week did you spend keeping real-world children from being abused? As much, or more, than you spent complaining about a game in which it is possible for underage children to experience sexual activities?
Yep. Great point, Engine. It's because it's easy to get outraged against. Everyone agrees with you and you don't have to do anything about it. Just like "terrorism".
Quote from: HinterWelt;256320This kind of thing makes me thing I should make Squirrels: Bust a Nut.
Squine.
But you should. That would be hilarious. The "edgy" squirrel supplement. The title sells itself.
Quote from: RPGPundit;256318Dude, I really don't think you're going to be able to argue this game doesn't have sexual overtones, including ones that are perverse. Its based on hentai, for christs' sake, and they admit it right there.
Your arguments look pathetic: the very fact that there is a "Darker relationship" option makes it clear that the game is a game with significant sexual overtones, including "dark" ones.
Certainly. But so what?
And it is clear that that mode of play is one of many options, not a necessary direction.
Quote from: RPGPundit;256318Your arguments look pathetic: the very fact that there is a "Darker relationship" option makes it clear that the game is a game with significant sexual overtones, including "dark" ones.
Yup, and they are all optional. You play the game as you choose.
In any case, it's probably time for me to bow out of this little hatefest. Perhaps next you could start a thread about how "
Dark Heresy is a space nazi game about religious fanatics who would do anything to serve their master, and I don't need to tell you where that could lead."
Quote from: GrimGent;256305And Rook Catchfly from Nobilis remains "eternally underage" which mostly poses a problem because she has a terrible crush on a man who never even realizes her feelings since in his eyes she's just a child. Playing teenagers or even younger characters than that isn't unprecedented, as said before.
Yes yes, Grimgent. Nobilis can be perverted "Art" too if you like. Don't start getting concerned... I'm sure its just as degenerate as this silly maid game! :rolleyes:
RPGPundit
Quote from: Engine;256307So, do any of you spend this much time campaigning against actual child abuse against actual children? It just strikes me that the level of outrage and disgust conveyed here give the impression that some of you must be ultra-dedicated champions of anti-abuse activities, if the fantasy version sets you off in such a way. How much time this week did you spend keeping real-world children from being abused? As much, or more, than you spent complaining about a game in which it is possible for underage children to experience sexual activities?
Again, for me the issue isn't about protecting "the children": Its about protecting my fucking hobby from the Swine that want to destroy it.
RPGPundit
Quote from: GrimGent;256325In any case, it's probably time for me to bow out of this little hatefest. Perhaps next you could start a thread about how "Dark Heresy is a space nazi game about religious fanatics who would do anything to serve their master, and I don't need to tell you where that could lead."
Not going to happen. There is no sex in Dark Heresy so it doesn't make them feel all funny and tingly down there which then brings up the voice of their mother and then they have to reach for the clothespeg.
This whole website is based on collectively pretending that RPGs are a fit pursuit for grown men (mostly).
So any argument that there are more important things that we should be doing is correct, applies equally to the person making it, and misses the point.
The fact that the person arguing with you is a NIMBY (Australian expression, standing for 'Not In My Back Yard'), doesn't mean that that shit should in fact be in their back yard.
Quote from: GrimGent;256325Perhaps next you could start a thread about how "Dark Heresy is a space nazi game about religious fanatics who would do anything to serve their master, and I don't need to tell you where that could lead."
It leads to
Dogs in the Vineyard!
Quote from: RPGPundit;256327Again, for me the issue isn't about protecting "the children": Its about protecting my fucking hobby from the Swine that want to destroy it.
Can you give me a hypothetical example of a small way in which Maid could damage the hobby? I'm honestly curious how this would work.
Quote from: RPGPundit;256327Again, for me the issue isn't about protecting "the children": Its about protecting my fucking hobby from the Swine that want to destroy it.
It's
my hobby, but I'll let you have a little piece of it.
Quote from: RPGPundit;256327Again, for me the issue isn't about protecting "the children":
Yes, you've been very clear about that. I wasn't talking to you. Your own argument is what I would consider "untenable," but it's certainly not worth objecting.
Quote from: walkerp;256333Can you give me a hypothetical example of a small way in which Maid could damage the hobby? I'm honestly curious how this would work.
People's descriptions of the worst role-playing experience they've had seem to mostly relate to unwanted sexual situations in-game, and dominating GMs.
This game seems to encourage sexual situations, while presenting itself as a cute and funny game of cute and funny anime.
People have argued that the sex rules are only used if everyone's comfortable with it. But 'checking that everyone's comfortable with it' in practice means what the GM wants it to mean. 'Hey - the ad
said the campaign was for mature players.'
For that matter it seems like the GM also has a character, and that character has more social power in-game than the other players? So maybe it also encourages the second 'big bad.' Or at least, railroady GMs are likely to interpret it that way.
Quote from: walkerp;256333Can you give me a hypothetical example of a small way in which Maid could damage the hobby? I'm honestly curious how this would work.
If it brings into the hobby ONE hentai-freaking socially retarded lawncrapper; the kind that live in their parents' basement, soil their underwear and have restraining orders around playgrounds, who gets "into" RPGs not because he likes playing them, but because he thinks its a "safe" place to act the way he acts, and where people "get" him.
Tolerate one, and pretty soon you have hundreds.
Then you have regular people leaving in disgust.
Maid does this by contributing, along with almost all the other Forger games, to the overall feeling that "this is the sort of stuff we RPG gamers are into!".
Its like putting up a big sign saying "Lawncrappers welcome!".
RPGPundit
Quote from: Age of Fable;256331So any argument that there are more important things that we should be doing is correct, applies equally to the person making it, and misses the point.
It's not an either/or issue, though. We all believe there's some amount of time people "deserve" or "are allowed" to spend being entertained, and roleplaying is one of the ways we entertain ourselves. That said, given the strenuous level of objection to this game, it does seem as if those people objecting most strongly should be spending
some amount of time protecting
actual children, rather than objecting to people
pretending to be children.
In short, if you don't like child molestation, you're certainly within your rights to object to a game in which such molestation is possible or encouraged, but you also ought to be spending vastly more time protecting real children. You
can do both, absolutely! But I don't think many of the objectors
are doing both, and that is most illogical.
Quote from: Engine;256307So, do any of you spend this much time campaigning against actual child abuse against actual children?
As a matter of fact, I do.
Quote from: Engine;256307How much time this week did you spend keeping real-world children from being abused? As much, or more, than you spent complaining about a game in which it is possible for underage children to experience sexual activities?
About 40 hours every week.
Now that we have that out of the way, can I say that I find this game creepy? Do I win the argument because of where I happen to work?
TGA
Quote from: Age of Fable;256340"Oh, this looks like those Sailor Moon comics that Sarah reads, I'll get that for her."
Okay, I can see that. But that danger exists in every medium already. I mean you can say that about another manga, one that might be much more racy than Sailor Moon. To me, that's on the parents shoulders to make sure that what they are giving their children is appropriate.
I just gave Changeling: The Lost to the 13-year old daughter of a friend of mine. I skimmed through it and found some fairly realistic violence. I spoke to a bunch of friends who have played the game to get their input and then I sent an email to the father checking if it was cool and giving him the overview. He responded that it would be cool and that she is reading these Holly Black novels that are pretty racy. He's a good dad and will probably end up reading the book himself.
Quote from: RPGPundit;256342If it brings into the hobby ONE hentai-freaking socially retarded lawncrapper; the kind that live in their parents' basement, soil their underwear and have restraining orders around playgrounds, who gets "into" RPGs not because he likes playing them, but because he thinks its a "safe" place to act the way he acts, and where people "get" him.
(http://www.jeffpidgeon.com/uploaded_images/gamers-751692.jpg)
Quote from: walkerp;256322Squine.
But you should. That would be hilarious. The "edgy" squirrel supplement. The title sells itself.
I honestly do not know if I
could write it.
On topic: I did my share of "defending of the faith" in the 80s. Then it was about DND driving you crazy and having you go off into some steam tunnel and kill yourself or others. Strangely enough, those old defenses work well here.
If you have mental/social problems, you will bring it to the game. So, if you like molesting children or even play acting molesting children, you will bring it to the table. If you have no inhibitions about killing people, you will most likely kill people eventually. Gaming is not going to "make" you kill someone.
Now, if we are talking about "pollution" of the game pool meaning games that draw a type of personality to the hobby, well, I think you over estimate:
1. The draw of an indie game
2. The press it would get even if it was noticed by mainstream media
3. The effect such games have on the hobby.
So, IMO, it comes down to being a "defender of the faith" or not wanting to acknowledge that this is a great hobby where you get some great games and some not so great games and some real crap. Call crap for what it is. Don't buy it. Don't talk about it (short of offering your opinion on the subject matter). However, to suggest it is a tool to "destroy" the hobby...hyperbole.
Bill
Quote from: RPGPundit;256342Tolerate one, and pretty soon you have hundreds.
Like Mexicans and look what happened to America!
Quote from: Engine;256343It's not an either/or issue, though. We all believe there's some amount of time people "deserve" or "are allowed" to spend being entertained, and roleplaying is one of the ways we entertain ourselves. That said, given the strenuous level of objection to this game, it does seem as if those people objecting most strongly should be spending some amount of time protecting actual children, rather than objecting to people pretending to be children.
In short, if you don't like child molestation, you're certainly within your rights to object to a game in which such molestation is possible or encouraged, but you also ought to be spending vastly more time protecting real children. You can do both, absolutely! But I don't think many of the objectors are doing both, and that is most illogical.
Actually, I'd say your position is illogical.
For one thing, continually speaking out about things like child sexual abuse and enforcing a social more that it is not acceptable to promote those ideas
does help actual children. Are you not aware of the metric ton of psychological studies about how fantasies of this kind of behavior feeds the compulsions of sex offenders?
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;256346As a matter of fact, I do.
Excellent!
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;256346Now that we have that out of the way, can I say that I find this game creepy? Do I win the argument because of where I happen to work?
Yeah, I don't think you understand what I was trying to get at. I'm not saying that if you find this game creepy, you must work against child molestation or else be barred from vocal objection; what I'm saying is that if you find this game creepy, you
should work against child molestation.
If Maid bothers you - given that it's a fantasy game which allows for the possibility of objectionable behavior - then the real world should blow you into a fury of charity. It's easy to spend a few hours on a message forum, running your mouth, but if you really and truly object to the game on this basis, you should do more than speak out against it, you should work against the problem itself in real life. You, Good Assyrian, do so, and that is laudable. Many people do not, and I believe they should.
Quote from: RPGPunditThat random Maid generator is very interesting. You can randomly generate a 10-year old Sexy Maid who has a transparent uniform, freckles, smokes, has the quality of "former prostitute", and has the "stress" that "when she's extremely upset, will drink alcohol or drugs until she can't remember anymore".
Yes, this sounds like a perfectly wholesome game.
That character generation in GURPS is interesting. You can, if you want generate -4+3i years old sexy cthulhu/human hybrid space maid, who is space nazi-commie, is marryed to her father (cthulhu), is into BDSM, drugs and likes them young.
Yes, this sounds like a perfectly wholesome game.
Quote from: jgants;256351For one thing, continually speaking out about things like child sexual abuse and enforcing a social more that it is not acceptable to promote those ideas does help actual children.
I don't think anyone's actions in this thread are going to stop the production of Maid; I think it's at least as possible that it'll actually
sell copies of the game. I certainly don't think objecting
in this thread is as productive as other means of protecting abused children. That's not to say such vocal objections cannot be useful; they can indeed. But in isolation, and in places where very few will hear, they're not that useful on their own.
Quote from: jgants;256351Are you not aware of the metric ton of psychological studies about how fantasies of this kind of behavior feeds the compulsions of sex offenders?
Yeah, you know that thesis is highly under debate, right? I mean, this is the "Playboy causes rape," argument, and while there's data to suggest that media can influence people toward action, there's also data to suggest that it can
prevent action by giving the actor an outlet which is not harmful to actual children. I don't think there's positive data from either side of the argument; too many people with too many preconceptions on both sides.
Quote from: RPGPundit;256327Its about protecting my fucking hobby from the Swine that want to destroy it.
I've never met a single person who wants to destroy the hobby. I've met a few outside of the hobby who would like to limit it, or monitor it-but never anyone who would destroy it.
Maybe Uruguay and Canada are much more dangerous places than I first thought them to be.
Quote from: RPGPundit;256342Tolerate one, and pretty soon you have hundreds.
Besides being an absurd comment, for obvious reasons, has this ever happened to your group? Has someone showed up and ruined your fun? If so maybe try what we've done and stop gaming with those douchebags who ruin your fun.
Just a suggestion.
If you're worried about the hobby imploding from this single game, or even several more games just like it-or even worse-I have some ocean front property in Kansas I'd like to sell you.
Quote from: RPGPundit...along with almost all the other Forger games...
How many Forge games have you read? Don't bother with answering, you allready did it in the line I quoted above... zero.
Quote from: GrimGent;256305And Rook Catchfly from Nobilis remains "eternally underage" which mostly poses a problem because she has a terrible crush on a man who never even realizes her feelings since in his eyes she's just a child. Playing teenagers or even younger characters than that isn't unprecedented, as said before.
Wait, are you saying the older person has an entirely appropriate reaction to the affections of an underage person? In other words, they aren't having this underage girl perform humiliating, sexual acts?
How are those correlated again? In one, the behaviour towards an underage girl is entirely appropriate, and in the other it isn't. Who here said that teenaged crushes are disgusting or inappropriate for RPGs? Are you saying that a teenage crush is the same thing as sexualizing an eleven year old?
StormBringer: Something's telling me, that being "eternaly underage" doesn't mean being child... think about it, you could be hundrets years old and you would still be "underage"... poor Rook, that must suck!
Quote from: Fritzs;256364StormBringer: Something's telling me, that being "eternaly underage" doesn't mean being child... think about it, you could be hundrets years old and you would still be "underage"... poor Rook, that must suck!
So, does the example from Maid sexualize a 300yr old being that only looks eleven?
Quote from: droog;256348(http://www.jeffpidgeon.com/uploaded_images/gamers-751692.jpg)
And what, exactly, is your point?
RPGPundit
Quote from: walkerp;256350Like Mexicans and look what happened to America!
Are you seriously claiming mexicans are all socially retarded sexual deviants??
You are one fucked up individual.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Engine;256353Excellent!
Yeah, I don't think you understand what I was trying to get at. I'm not saying that if you find this game creepy, you must work against child molestation or else be barred from vocal objection; what I'm saying is that if you find this game creepy, you should work against child molestation.
If Maid bothers you - given that it's a fantasy game which allows for the possibility of objectionable behavior - then the real world should blow you into a fury of charity. It's easy to spend a few hours on a message forum, running your mouth, but if you really and truly object to the game on this basis, you should do more than speak out against it, you should work against the problem itself in real life. You, Good Assyrian, do so, and that is laudable. Many people do not, and I believe they should.
So, basically, you're just
conceding the point that the maid game itself is promoting sexually degenerate behaviour, and are now just getting into a totally different point about how people who are bothered by this should also be bothered by real-life sexual abuse?
But you are then basically admitting that Maid is fucked up, right? I mean, you didn't deny that to Assyrian, so you must be, right?
RPGPundit
Quote from: Fritzs;256355That character generation in GURPS is interesting. You can, if you want generate -4+3i years old sexy cthulhu/human hybrid space maid, who is space nazi-commie, is marryed to her father (cthulhu), is into BDSM, drugs and likes them young.
Yes, this sounds like a perfectly wholesome game.
The difference being that in Maid, the character I generated directly fits the theme of the game. In GURPS, you'd have to be choosing one out of an infinite number of possible settings, designing it yourself, and intending to create such a perverse setting.
So if your point is "a lawncrapper could use the GURPS system to create his own sexual fantasy world", then I'd say sure, sure he could.
That doesn't negate that its quite a different thing from publishing a game that ENCOURAGES that same lawncrappery and makes it pretty fucking central to the theme of the game.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Fritzs;256360How many Forge games have you read? Don't bother with answering, you allready did it in the line I quoted above... zero.
Wrong, fucktard. I've unfortunately been forced to read a few forge games for review purposes, and others I have read to know my enemy.
Now, your fucking point is? Oh wait, it was just mindless slander, you have no point. You almost never do.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Engine;256343It's not an either/or issue, though. We all believe there's some amount of time people "deserve" or "are allowed" to spend being entertained, and roleplaying is one of the ways we entertain ourselves. That said, given the strenuous level of objection to this game, it does seem as if those people objecting most strongly should be spending some amount of time protecting actual children, rather than objecting to people pretending to be children.
In short, if you don't like child molestation, you're certainly within your rights to object to a game in which such molestation is possible or encouraged, but you also ought to be spending vastly more time protecting real children. You can do both, absolutely! But I don't think many of the objectors are doing both, and that is most illogical.
I'm not sure that the 'tone' of the objections is any different to the tone of the defence.
You could equally argue that the people defending the game should be out in the real world fighting real censorship/prudery, rather than arguing against people who have no power to ban this game and in most cases probably don't want to (OK, there might be some situation where someone's organising a con and wants to stop people running 'Maid'. But really, if you believe that the arguments against 'Maid' are bad you'd probably have to accept that there are lots of things that are worse in the same way).
So yes, the whole argument is NIMBY City.
It's comparable to the people in the Vietnam War who decided they really hated conscription at the exact same moment that they became liable for it. It didn't follow that their arguments were invalid, or even that they weren't doing good by being hypocritically active.
Quote from: RPGPunditI've unfortunately been forced to read a few forge games for review purposes, and others I have read to know my enemy.
So, where does for example Shab-al-hiri roach ecourage degenerate sexual fantasies or anything, that is unacceptable to what you think general public is...?
Quote from: RPGPunditOh wait, it was just mindless slander, you have no point. You almost never do.
Having a point=/=agree with RPGPundit.
Quote from: RPGPundit;256368So, basically, you're just conceding the point that the maid game itself is promoting sexually degenerate behaviour, and are now just getting into a totally different point about how people who are bothered by this should also be bothered by real-life sexual abuse?
But you are then basically admitting that Maid is fucked up, right? I mean, you didn't deny that to Assyrian, so you must be, right?
This is high school debate team tactics stuff, RPGPundit. Come on.
Quote from: StormBringer;256361Wait, are you saying the older person has an entirely appropriate reaction to the affections of an underage person? In other words, they aren't having this underage girl perform humiliating, sexual acts?
How are those correlated again? In one, the behaviour towards an underage girl is entirely appropriate, and in the other it isn't. Who here said that teenaged crushes are disgusting or inappropriate for RPGs? Are you saying that a teenage crush is the same thing as sexualizing an eleven year old?
Well, those aren't inherently different. A fictional portrayal of appropriate behavior can be sexualizing.
It isn't inherently wrong for a fiction writer, GM, or player to make a fictional crime happen. This is true regardless of whether the crime is murder, torture, enslavement, or child abuse. If the fiction portrays the crime as a crime and doesn't glorify it, then it isn't inappropriate for it to be portrayed. As a GM or a player, I can portray an character doing bad things without myself being bad.
Conversely, I think that one can have a completely crime-free fiction that inappropriately sexualizes. The issue isn't whether a fictional crime is committed -- the issue is what message the fiction sends.
Quote from: RPGPundit;256368So, basically, you're just conceding the point that the maid game itself is promoting sexually degenerate behaviour, and are now just getting into a totally different point about how people who are bothered by this should also be bothered by real-life sexual abuse?
I concede that many people here find the possibilities of Maid to be objectionable, certainly. [Well, okay, that's not really a concession. Still.] As I've said before, I'm not particularly worked-up about it, because I don't generally get worked-up about others' fantasies until they affect my life, which I don't really believe Maid is going to do.
Quote from: RPGPundit;256368But you are then basically admitting that Maid is fucked up, right? I mean, you didn't deny that to Assyrian, so you must be, right?
I think I probably have a very different idea of what "fucked up" means than many of the people here, just as their ideas of what's "fucked up" would be different from each others', and from mine, and from yours.
Do I think Maid promotes sexually deviant play? I don't know; I haven't read it. Certainly, some people seem to have played it in a sexually deviant way, but it's difficult to judge whether that's a property of the game or the players. Do I think Maid is as sexually deviant as the average hentai? Uh, no. Do I find sexual deviancy - particularly in fantasy - objectionable? No.
But to answer your question, do I think Maid is "promoting sexually degenerate behaviour?" Boy, I just don't know. Grand Theft Auto lets you fuck whores; do I think it promotes fucking whores? I'd need a lot more data about GTA players and whore-fucking. I certainly wouldn't want to make any sort of
judgment without that information.
To answer your mostly-unspoken question, no, my pursuit of an ancillary issue does not mean I concede the previous arguments. All I'm saying is, if you think child molestation is a real problem, go out and get involved in organizations which aid abused children, don't sit here and complain about a game in which real children aren't abused. Get involved! There really are real children being seriously abused every day, and if you find it objectionable, do something! I mean, you don't
have to, but doesn't it seem like a good idea?
Now, you've said, Pundit, that you're not troubled by the perversion, per se, but the effect on the hobby: in your case, working child abuse centers might be nice, but it's not really logically required by your views. All you could do is stand around in forums and at gaming shops and say, "Don't buy Maid. It will ruin roleplaying." Which is, more or less, what you're doing, so good on you, mate.
Quote from: Age of Fable;256375You could equally argue that the people defending the game should be out in the real world fighting real censorship/prudery, rather than arguing against people who have no power to ban this game and in most cases probably don't want to.
Quoted for truth. I think in this case, what's good for the goose is good for the entire species.
Quote from: droog;256158Also let me point out that Quentin Tarantino made overdosing and shooting people in the toilet cool...if you look at it like that.
Or Borat. I have a friend who foams at the mouth when Borat is mentioned because "he's making fun of good, hard-working Christians."
Seanchai
Quote from: Engine;256357I mean, this is the "Playboy causes rape," argument, and while there's data to suggest that media can influence people toward action, there's also data to suggest that it can prevent action by giving the actor an outlet which is not harmful to actual children. I don't think there's positive data from either side of the argument; too many people with too many preconceptions on both sides.
I think it's probably more analagous to the 'pornography that depicts rape causes rape argument' (not that I'm 100% convinced of that either).
But I think if it is 'giving the actor an outlet', surely it's fair enough to say they should take their outlet somewhere else?
Like if you had a paedophile-outlet MMORPG, people who played World of Warcraft probably wouldn't want joint cons, they wouldn't want it to use the name 'World of Warcraft' because then they'd be associated with it in the public mind, and so on?
Quote from: Age of Fable;256384I think it's probably more analagous to the 'pornography that depicts rape causes rape argument' (not that I'm 100% convinced of that either).
A much more appropriate example. Another argument, coming up much more often now, is animated renderings - by hand or machine - of underage persons in sexual situations. No actual child is harmed, but it still stimulates those who are stimulated by children in sexual situations; does this result in real-world harm? I don't think anyone knows; I'm certainly uncertain.
Quote from: Age of Fable;256384Like if you had a paedophile-outlet MMORPG, people who played World of Warcraft probably wouldn't want joint cons, they wouldn't want it to use the name 'World of Warcraft' because then they'd be associated with it in the public mind, and so on?
They probably would not, just as roleplayers wouldn't want - don't want - a paedophile-outlet RPG; the questions I see are:
1. Does Maid truly qualify as a paedophile-outlet RPG? We've seen it's possible to make it one, but we've seen that's possible with a large number of other games. Maid's mechanics make it more accessible - Shadowrun doesn't have a Sexy attribute - but how much more? How much is it encouraged, and how much is it simply "made possible?" I will need to read the RPG to judge.
2. RPG players not wanting the association doesn't mean the association is harmful; they could be over-reacting. What is the amount of actual harm to the hobby/industry caused by Maid and other, similar, games? We've heard a lot of hypotheticals, but little in the way of actual evidence.
I don't think most people care about the answers to these questions. I think they hear "you can play a little girl who has sex," and immediately react strongly against it, without asking deeper questions, because child sexuality produces a powerful emotional response. Even a lot of people who believe they're asking the deeper questions are subconsciously being strongly effected by their preconceptions, so powerful is the emotional effect of child sexuality. What I want to know is if this specific case is logically justified in producing such responses; at this point, I do not possess enough information to make an accurate assessment.
How about if you just don't want what you do in a role-playing game associated with what you and a majority of others consider to be some seriously sick shit?
I don't want my Traveller or D&D games thrown into the same category as Poison'd or Maid. Not only are they different games, but the general kind of people who play them are different (I don't encounter many hentai fans or artistes playing Traveller or D&D).
Quote from: Engine;2563892. RPG players not wanting the association doesn't mean the association is harmful; they could be over-reacting. What is the amount of actual harm to the hobby/industry caused by Maid and other, similar, games? We've heard a lot of hypotheticals, but little in the way of actual evidence.
I don't think most people care about the answers to these questions.
Wrong.
I went through this when
Poison'd came out. So, I invite others to do this as well, just to find out for themselves.
Ask you FLGS or game club owner if they would allow you to run the game publicly at their establishment. Ask them if they would sell the game at their establishment. Tell them where they can read the online discussions about the game.
Then listen to their response.
In the case of
Poison'd, none of the FLGS's in Knoxville would either allow the game to be run in their store or stock the game for sale. One store owner even went so far as to say that, "Not only is there not a large enough market for a game like this but it would drive away customers if they saw it in the store being played."
Quote from: jeff37923;256391How about if you just don't want what you do in a role-playing game associated with what you and a majority of others consider to be some seriously sick shit?
Well, here's the good news, on that account: almost no one will have ever heard of these games. In the rare case that you meet someone who is aware of Maid and Poison'd but is not aware that they're very unrepresentative of roleplaying, you may have to explain the difference to them.
I belong to a lot of groups which contain members who are universally reviled, and yes, sometimes that reviling is directed at me, and it's unfair and it sucks for me. But what are you going to do? Quit your job at the post office because you're tired of people saying, "Whoa, don't go postal on me!" Stop being a priest because everyone now distorts the relative commonality of child molesters within the clergy? Stop playing RPGs - or make someone else stop playing RPGs - just so you'll never have to say, "No, I don't play those kinds of games, and they make me sick."
No, thanks. I'll keep doing what I'm doing, and if people misunderstand, I will explain it to them. If they still refuse to understand, then they are incorrect and irrational and there's not very much I can do about that. But I am a tolerant and accepting sort; not everyone is, and that's fine. I tolerate even the intolerant, although I like to try to spread tolerance when and how I can.
Quote from: jeff37923;256395In the case of Poison'd, none of the FLGS's in Knoxville would either allow the game to be run in their store or stock the game for sale. One store owner even went so far as to say that, "Not only is there not a large enough market for a game like this but it would drive away customers if they saw it in the store being played."
Okay, so where's the harm to the industry in Knoxville, if game stores won't sell it or let it be played?
Quote from: jeff37923I don't want my Traveller or D&D games thrown into the same category as Poison'd or Maid. Not only are they different games, but the general kind of people who play them are different (I don't encounter many hentai fans or artistes playing Traveller or D&D).
I don't want
Wild Strawberries or
Ratatouille be trown to same category as
She's Got A Cum Fixation or
Throat Gaggers #2, but somehow all of these fall into "movie" category... what should I do about it...? tell everyone that porn is sick and it will eventually destroy movies...?
Quote from: jeff37923;256391Ask you FLGS or game club owner if they would allow you to run the game publicly at their establishment.
If I were the owner of a FLGS I wouldn't let anyone I didn't know damned well to run a game at my store front. No matter what game they ran.
QuoteAsk them if they would sell the game at their establishment.
I think the FLGS would sell anything that makes money. Maybe your local store is different, but the three or four around here would sell kidney's if it were legal and made money.
QuoteHow about if you just don't want what you do in a role-playing game associated with what you and a majority of others consider to be some seriously sick shit?
I'd say keep doing what
you do, and not worry about some bullshit goofy ass game that no one will ever buy or see.
QuoteI don't encounter many hentai fans or artistes playing Traveller or D&D
Frankly I don't encounter many Hentai fans period. People get so worked up about shit they see on the internet that they think it's coming to a block near them soon, when in reality it's just marginalia at best.
:combust:
I have a small side-trip to Malta to make. Hopefully when i get back, all will be well.
Quote from: Engine;256398Okay, so where's the harm to the industry in Knoxville, if game stores won't sell it or let it be played?
The harm would be if they tried to sell it or let it be played.
You quoted too little of my post.
Quote from: Fritzs;256399I don't want Wild Strawberries or Ratatouille be trown to same category as She's Got A Cum Fixation or Throat Gaggers #2, but somehow all of these fall into "movie" category... what should I do about it...? tell everyone that porn is sick and it will eventually destroy movies...?
It all depends on who you want hanging around you when you watch movies. Do you want the people who are attracted to movies like
Wild Strawberries or
Ratatouille around you or do you want the people who are attracted to movies like
She's Got A Cum Fixation or
Throat Gaggers #2 hanging around you?
Take your pick, you will have to grade yourself on the answer.
Quote from: Serious Paul;256403I think the FLGS would sell anything that makes money.
And if selling
Poison'd or
Maid or having those games played in public would drive away business from their store, then they wouldn't make money now would they?
Quote from: Serious Paul;256403Frankly I don't encounter many Hentai fans period.
I wish that I had been so lucky.
EDIT:
It should be acknowledged that if you are running a store, that there is a kind of business that you do not want in a store. That is the customer who pays for material that will offend other customers into not spending their money at your store or who by their behavior drives away other customers. Pundit calls them Lawncrappers and that would be a pretty accurate name.
If the game attracts players who drive away other customers, then you do want those players in your store.
Quote from: jeff37923;256410It all depends on who you want hanging around you when you watch movies. Do you want the people who are attracted to movies like Wild Strawberries or Ratatouille around you or do you want the people who are attracted to movies like She's Got A Cum Fixation or Throat Gaggers #2 hanging around you?
Take your pick, you will have to grade yourself on the answer.
I'll take
Pulp Fiction and
Oldboy. I doubt
Wild Strawberries /
Ratatouille will be hanging out with
She's Got A Cum Fixation/
Throat Gaggers #2, and I don't want to hang out with either of them.
I'd bet somewhere we can find a quote where an early filmmaker pointed to porn and proclaimed the inevitable downfall of the film industry. If so was he right?
Did HoL bring down the RPG hobby?
Quote from: jeff37923;256411And if selling Poison'd or Maid or having those games played in public would drive away business from their store, then they wouldn't make money now would they?
Who would it drive away? I've been in plenty of game/hobby shops with gaming going on and hentei for sale (albeit kept behind the counter). One shop from my old hometown in particular is still booming to this day despite carrying a variety of adult oriented products.
Quote from: jeff37923;256395In the case of Poison'd, none of the FLGS's in Knoxville would either allow the game to be run in their store or stock the game for sale. One store owner even went so far as to say that, "Not only is there not a large enough market for a game like this but it would drive away customers if they saw it in the store being played."
I hate to tell you this but that would change in a heart beat if it sold 50 copies a week...heck, if it sold 25 or 20 it would still get carried. You mistake "moral outrage" for lack of profitability. It is just not worth the potential trouble. This is why such a game will never be a "threat" to the hobby.
Bill
ETA: the HoL example above is an excellent example. It sold hot when it first came out. I knew many store owners (in the prerelease stage) who proclaimed they would never carry such a book, it was immoral to them. When it really sold, they changed their tune and suddenly "it was not that bad".
Quote from: StormBringer;256361How are those correlated again? In one, the behaviour towards an underage girl is entirely appropriate, and in the other it isn't. Who here said that teenaged crushes are disgusting or inappropriate for RPGs? Are you saying that a teenage crush is the same thing as sexualizing an eleven year old?
I wasn't going to post in this thread again, but...
In
Nob's example of play, Rook loves Pandareos in every way imaginable, but when she attempts to steal a kiss from the man, he only turns away and remarks absent-mindedly that she should wait until she's a little older. However, the problem is that Rook never
gets older. She's frozen in time, and that doesn't affect only her physical appearance: she could live for ten thousand years, and still remain even mentally and emotionally a teenager. She's explicitly not an old mind in a young body, and she won't become more mature or worldly over the millennia. She'll be literally be underage and unaging, forever.
Now, a number of posters at this site have stated in the past that they simply wouldn't allow teenage PCs, at all, and that there are no romances or involved relationships between the characters in their games. In
Maid, that can't be the case since it's all about relationships and doesn't set an official starting age of any kind. If a thirteen-year-old maid in that game tries to kiss, well, anyone else, how does that "sexualize" the PC in question more than Rook's complicated relationship with Pandareos? (Again, of course, any sexual advances in
Maid are brought into play by players, not the rules, just as Pandareos obviously
could change his mind about Rook.)
As for humiliation, anyone who realizes the depths of Rook's affections could easily turn those against her, sapping her strength and breaking her will. An enemy might seduce Pandareos and flaunt that in her face; slowly corrupt him into something that she doesn't want him to be but cannot stop from becoming; talk him into demanding distasteful chores from her because she's so eager to please him, to prove her love; and use all this to test his true feelings towards her in order to gain further power over
him as well by ruining the girl. This is how you fight in
Nobilis, after all: by Nettling.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256414I'd bet somewhere we can find a quote where an early filmmaker pointed to porn and proclaimed the inevitable downfall of the film industry. If so was he right?
Did HoL bring down the RPG hobby?
You'd have to talk to Fritzs about that. I think that the comparison between movies and games is tenuous at best.
And HoL isn't actually a game. It is a work of satire. Says so in the book itself.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256414Who would it drive away?
People who find the content offensive, which seems to be a large enough segment that it would effect sales for a FLGS. Just from this thread alone, you can see that the content is controversial. Most businessmen avoid controversy if they want to maintain their business because controversy rarely sells.
Quote from: HinterWelt;256419I hate to tell you this but that would change in a heart beat if it sold 50 copies a week...heck, if it sold 25 or 20 it would still get carried. You mistake "moral outrage" for lack of profitability. It is just not worth the potential trouble. This is why such a game will never be a "threat" to the hobby.
Bill
If moral outrage leads to lack of profitability then the results are the same, aren't they.
Quote from: HinterWelt;256419ETA: the HoL example above is an excellent example. It sold hot when it first came out. I knew many store owners (in the prerelease stage) who proclaimed they would never carry such a book, it was immoral to them. When it really sold, they changed their tune and suddenly "it was not that bad".
That is because HoL is a work of satire.
Quote from: jeff37923;256411And if selling Poison'd or Maid or having those games played in public would drive away business from their store, then they wouldn't make money now would they?
Okay, maybe that's true some of the time, but do you think it holds true all of the time? I mean take for instance Tardy's (http://tardys.com/). Seems like an everyday comic book shop right? They sell "classic" porn-old issues of everything from Playboy to Juggs, to Hustler in the same shop.
Does this mean I won't take my kids there? Not at all, my girls get their monthly Wonder Woman fix there, and my boy gets the occasional free Hero Clix from the proprietor, who is a pretty nice guy. (Once he realizes your kids aren't going to be allowed to run wild and act like animals.)
QuoteIt should be acknowledged that if you are running a store, that there is a kind of business that you do not want in a store. That is the customer who pays for material that will offend other customers into not spending their money at your store or who by their behavior drives away other customers. Pundit calls them Lawncrappers and that would be a pretty accurate name.
If the game attracts players who drive away other customers, then you do want those customers in your store.
You seem to be assuming that everyone buying this game is going to act like an asshole in public. A few? Sure, but that describes the buyers of every game or comic book. But all? I have a hard time seeing that.
I agree with you, and even the others that these games sound like their the kind of shit me and mine wouldn't bother with-but I don't need to ban them, or regulate them. There just isn't a significant demand for this crap, nor do I foresee there being a significant demand.
Quote from: jeff37923;256426You'd have to talk to Fritzs about that. I think that the comparison between movies and games is tenuous at best.
Why, because the film industry is bigger? I make the example to point out some people's repetative need to predict the end of things. Whether it be the film industry, gaming, comics, the sanctity of marriage or even existence itself. It's all the same. There's always extreme thinkers preaching about the end times.
Hellfire is burnin' RPGs alive! This is the end brothers and sisters, the devil has been published, the hobby will fall! Brace yourselves for the evil man has wrought!
Quote from: jeff37923;256426And HoL isn't actually a game. It is a work of satire. Says so in the book itself.
Does that matter to the untrained eye, or even new gamers who don't realize what HoL is? It has rules. It has a supplement. To the untrained eye that is in fact an RPG despite that it is also primarily a satire. In this case it is a perfect example of something people thought would hurt the hobby and in the end it didn't.
Quote from: jeff37923;256426People who find the content offensive, which seems to be a large enough segment that it would effect sales for a FLGS. Just from this thread alone, you can see that the content is controversial. Most businessmen avoid controversy if they want to maintain their business because controversy rarely sells.
I disagree. Controversy sells better than anything else. Our entertainment industry is built upon publicity stunts and controversy. Maid could just end up being Roleplaying's sex tape, although I doubt it unless they crank up the exposure.
Quote from: jeff37923;256427If moral outrage leads to lack of profitability then the results are the same, aren't they.
Maybe down in your neck of the woods people would know and care enough to protest, but I just don't see that happening here. You seem to be making the assumption that people will even take the time to look at these games, let alone read them.
Quote from: jeff37923;256407The harm would be if they tried to sell it or let it be played.
Well, I'm not sold that it would be, but perhaps more importantly, it wasn't, because they didn't. So it doesn't really qualify as evidence of harm, since it didn't get played or sold, and thus no harm occurred. It's another fine hypothetical example - "if they had, then there would have been" - but it's not really a practical example.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256414I'll take Pulp Fiction and Oldboy. I doubt Wild Strawberries /Ratatouille will be hanging out with She's Got A Cum Fixation/Throat Gaggers #2, and I don't want to hang out with either of them.
Ratatouille rocks, fucker! I have absolutely no problem having both
Ratatouille (along with the rest of Pixar's output) and
Oldboy (along with the rest of the Vengeance Trilogy) on my DVD shelf.
KoOS
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256431Why, because the film industry is bigger?
"Film" doesn't mangle up community and industry the way "Tabletop RPG" does.
Note: I don't agree with Pundit &ct. But dismissal of the fact that community and industry in TTRPGs are one giant smear is
silly.
Quote from: King of Old School;256437Ratatouille rocks, fucker! I have absolutely no problem having both Ratatouille (along with the rest of Pixar's output) and Oldboy (along with the rest of the Vengeance Trilogy) on my DVD shelf.
KoOS
Retracted then, I've been in the same boat with my favorite cartoon. *Looks at his copy of Emperor's New Groove sandwiched between Full Time Killer and Dead Alive*
I was thinking more of the target audience for Ratatouille rather than people such as yourself who might also like it. Sorry. :) This does make a good point though, not everyone who likes something can be pinned with a particular label. Something that has been insinuated about the kind of people who might find Maid entertaining.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;256438"Film" doesn't mangle up community and industry the way "Tabletop RPG" does.
Are you sure? In any entertainment industry with a community you will find the same arguments and blurring of terms. I've made one short film so far and I'm already seeing hints of discussions very similar to the one we're having here.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;256438"Film" doesn't mangle up community and industry the way "Tabletop RPG" does.
I don't see that as all. The difference is just one of scale. But you don't think that controversies in film content don't resonate among the Hollywood and New York film communities?
Quote from: Serious Paul;256430I mean take for instance Tardy's (http://tardys.com/). Seems like an everyday comic book shop right? They sell "classic" porn-old issues of everything from Playboy to Juggs, to Hustler in the same shop.
Does this mean I won't take my kids there? Not at all, my girls get their monthly Wonder Woman fix there, and my boy gets the occasional free Hero Clix from the proprietor, who is a pretty nice guy. (Once he realizes your kids aren't going to be allowed to run wild and act like animals.)
However, I'd bet that Tardy's doesn't have the "classic" porn (old issues of everything from Playboy to Juggs, to Hustler) in in the same room for everybody to see and ogle over as the comics. I'd bet he has those in a room in the back or behind the counter so that the underage kids can't get at them.
Quote from: Serious Paul;256430You seem to be assuming that everyone buying this game is going to act like an asshole in public. A few? Sure, but that describes the buyers of every game or comic book. But all? I have a hard time seeing that.
Actually, they could be the epitome of behavior and they would still drive away customers. It isn't mannerisms that people are finding offensive in this case, it is the content and context of what they are role-playing that is squicky. All it would take is one exclamation of, "I neck rape the cabin boy" or seeing Sailor Bubba play a prepubescant maid trying to maintain her purity in the face of hentai aggression would be enough to cause people to scatter from the store.
And to answer the OP's question: no, the "hobby" is not that fragile.
KoOS
Quote from: walkerp;256442I don't see that as all. The difference is just one of scale. But you don't think that controversies in film content don't resonate among the Hollywood and New York film communities?
I think there tend to be more steps between the production team of "Nailin' Paylin" (the porn-in-production intended to portray Gov. Palin) and the fanbase of the X-Files movies, yes. They tend not to be discussed in the same venue or sentence.
This isn't true of RPGs.
Yes, a difference of scale. Bigger is also
different.
Quote from: jeff37923;256443I'd bet he has those in a room in the back or behind the counter so that the underage kids can't get at them.
If Poison'd and Maid have adult themes and content, I don't see why the game store owner can't simply do the same with them.
Quote from: jeff37923;256443It isn't mannerisms that people are finding offensive in this case, it is the content and context of what they are role-playing that is squicky.
Which is why you don't watch
She's Got A Cum Fixation on a park bench with the audio turned up. If what you're doing isn't for public consumption, you don't do it in public. I wouldn't play our Shadowrun game in public, either.
Quote from: jeff37923;256443Actually, they could be the epitome of behavior and they would still drive away customers. It isn't mannerisms that people are finding offensive in this case, it is the content and context of what they are role-playing that is squicky. All it would take is one exclamation of, "I neck rape the cabin boy" or seeing Sailor Bubba play a prepubescant maid trying to maintain her purity in the face of hentai aggression would be enough to cause people to scatter from the store.
Things like this have never been roleplayed until now? I find that rather hard to believe.
Vampire the Mascarade (just an example) has the same potential for bad public appearance which is why good players of that game know they should be careful how they act in public.
Porn fans deal with this all the time, they buy their products in public but generally keep the content private.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256449Vampire the Mascarade (just an example) has the same potential for bad public appearance which is why good players of that game know they should be careful how they act in public.
See: News "exposes" on Vampire Larp. It had an impact.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256431Why, because the film industry is bigger?
No, because you experience a movie differently than you experience a RPG.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256431I make the example to point out some people's repetative need to predict the end of things. Whether it be the film industry, gaming, comics, the sanctity of marriage or even existence itself. It's all the same. There's always extreme thinkers preaching about the end times.
Hellfire is burnin' RPGs alive! This is the end brothers and sisters, the devil has been published, the hobby will fall! Brace yourselves for the evil man has wrought!
And this is where you go off the deep end into nonsense.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256431Does that matter to the untrained eye, or even new gamers who don't realize what HoL is? It has rules. It has a supplement. To the untrained eye that is in fact an RPG despite that it is also primarily a satire. In this case it is a perfect example of something people thought would hurt the hobby and in the end it didn't.
HoL is satire, obviously and deliberately so.
Poison'd and
Maid are only jokes in spite of themselves. Big difference that.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256431I disagree. Controversy sells better than anything else. Our entertainment industry is built upon publicity stunts and controversy. Maid could just end up being Roleplaying's sex tape, although I doubt it unless they crank up the exposure.
So keep track of sales figures for
Maid and get back to us on that.
Quote from: Engine;256448If Poison'd and Maid have adult themes and content, I don't see why the game store owner can't simply do the same with them.
Which is why you don't watch She's Got A Cum Fixation on a park bench with the audio turned up. If what you're doing isn't for public consumption, you don't do it in public. I wouldn't play our Shadowrun game in public, either.
If someone wishes to play
Poison'd or
Maid in private, that is fine with me. In fact it is preferred by me. I still don't want a player of those games to say that
Poison'd and
Maid are just like RPGs like
Traveller or
D&D.
And I'd also bet that the kinds of player attracted to playing
Poison'd or
Maid is quite different from the kind of player attracted to playing
Traveller or
D&D.
I just looked over some material on Maid, and I'm certainly going to do what I can to obtain a copy of it. I think there's a lot of ignorance going on, and I realize some of it is mine, so I've decided to remedy that. I will say, based on what I've seen so far, this tempest in a teacup is much ado about very little. Poison'd may well be another thing entirely, but from what I've seen Maid...well, it's not the bastion of evil I've been told it is.
Quote from: walkerp;256377This is high school debate team tactics stuff, RPGPundit. Come on.
Yes, his tactic of trying to change the subject certainly was. So again, either he has conceded the subject, or he is trying to change topic altogether, which is it?
RPGPundit
Quote from: Engine;256389I don't think most people care about the answers to these questions. I think they hear "you can play a little girl who has sex," and immediately react strongly against it, without asking deeper questions, because child sexuality produces a powerful emotional response. Even a lot of people who believe they're asking the deeper questions are subconsciously being strongly effected by their preconceptions, so powerful is the emotional effect of child sexuality. What I want to know is if this specific case is logically justified in producing such responses; at this point, I do not possess enough information to make an accurate assessment.
This is true, but the same skepticism could be applied to the creators of the game. Are they competent to handle the issue of child abuse? How do they argue for their competence?
If they argue that they don't have any special qualifications (in any sense) but that they should be able to present it appropriately, then why shouldn't anyone be able to criticise them and be trusted that they're criticising them appropriately?
The game doesn't seem to be presented as 'handling child abuse appropriately' (leaving aside the question whether any game whose primary aim is fun ever could). Nor does it seem to be emphasising its 'controversial' nature to get sales. It actually seems to be pitching itself as a game of whacky comic adventures (and the review on rpg.net gives the same impression). Which implies that they don't think the whole thing is a big deal. And to me, that doesn't inspire confidence in their motives or judgement.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256441This does make a good point though, not everyone who likes something can be pinned with a particular label. Something that has been insinuated about the kind of people who might find Maid entertaining.
This is a good point. I'm sure that many, maybe even most, of the people who find Maid appealing are looking more for P.G. Wodehouse than, say
Legend of the Overfiend. I don't think it's fair to say that there's anything perverse about those people (unless you consider Wodehouse perverse, I suppose).
What I despise about these threads are the people who say that because you can play it Wooster-and-Jeeves-style
and there is absolutely nothing questionable about that kind of play, then all people who want to play Maid are equally innocent... even if they're more interested in the genre typified by the example of play with the 26yo compelling the 10yo to wear a transparent maid outfit and rub her snatch with a broomstick.
Are you fucking kidding me?!? Because yes, there are people who will play Maid because they think that's just peachy; they're the same people who consume the kind of maid hentai from which the game originally spawned. And yes, those people, small a minority though they almost certainly are, are creepy as fuck. And no, the fact that you want to play Wooster and Jeeves* does not make those people any less fucking creepy, fuck you very much.
That doesn't mean Maid should be censored or banned or anything like that. Just call a spade a spade.
KoOS
* For the record, I fucking love
Jeeves and Wooster with Stephen Fry and Hugh Laurie.
Quote from: jeff37923;256451No, because you experience a movie differently than you experience a RPG.
Entertainment is entertainment. Drawing a distinction between them is naive. Trends in entertainment carry over to all of them.
Mainstream vs. underground? Come on. It's not that hard to see.
Quote from: jeff37923;256451And this is where you go off the deep end into nonsense.
Really, show me the foundation or your side of the argument? How is this conversation anything but nonsense, unless we can predict the future?
Quote from: jeff37923;256451HoL is satire, obviously and deliberately so. Poison'd and Maid are only jokes in spite of themselves. Big difference that.
Tell that to a general customer who wanders by the gaming racks which contain all 3 products as well as the more popular gaming fair. Will they draw such dinstinctions? You're arguing because you know better, and are somehow assuming that everyone will as well.
Quote from: jeff37923;256451So keep track of sales figures for Maid and get back to us on that.
What did I say? I doubt it unless they raise the exposure. With the right promotion campaign Maid could be sensationalized and probably sell pretty well to the kind of people who like sensational entertainment.
Watch TV, it's not that hard to see happening in every country. Tabloids anyone?
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256449Things like this have never been roleplayed until now? I find that rather hard to believe.
Vampire the Mascarade (just an example) has the same potential for bad public appearance which is why good players of that game know they should be careful how they act in public.
Levi beat me to it. Indeed look up some of the exposes on Vampire LARPing.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256449Porn fans deal with this all the time, they buy their products in public but generally keep the content private.
I don't know about you, but I really don't want my RPG hobby placed in the same category as porn fandom.
[QUOTE="jeff37923]No, because you experience a movie differently than you experience a RPG.[/QUOTE]
So RPGs are special... you know, a lot of "general public" thinks that special=retard, so don't speak about it loud, "general public" might get bad impression about RPGs...
Quote from: jeff37923;256458I don't know about you, but I really don't want my RPG hobby placed in the same category as porn fandom.
Too late, anything you do for entertainment is technically in a shared category. That doesn't mean you're a pervert, it just means you (like many others) like doing things purely for fun.
Quote from: King of Old School;256456That doesn't mean Maid should be censored or banned or anything like that. Just call a spade a spade.
KoOS
That is a great line, which pretty much sums up this discussion IMO.
Quote from: Engine;256453Maid...well, it's not the bastion of evil I've been told it is.
It doesn't have to be a bastion of evil to attract a creepy gamer.
Quote from: jeff37923;256458I don't know about you, but I really don't want my RPG hobby placed in the same category as porn fandom.
Too late, anything you do for entertainment is technically in a shared category. That doesn't mean you're a pervert, it just means you (like many others) like doing things purely for fun.
Being that they're both forms of entertainment you can draw comparisons between the two hobbies even if they aren't the same thing.
Quote from: King of Old School;256456That doesn't mean Maid should be censored or banned or anything like that. Just call a spade a spade.
KoOS
That is a great line, which pretty much sums up this discussion IMO.
Quote from: Serious Paul;256430Does this mean I won't take my kids there?
Paul, would you prefer your daughter be babysat by someone who was "really into" D&D, or someone who was "really into" Maid?
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;256454So again, either he has conceded the subject, or he is trying to change topic altogether, which is it?
The third option, which is "talking about two things at the same time." That's okay, right?
Quote from: RPGPundit;256465Paul, would you prefer your daughter be babysat by someone who was "really into" D&D, or someone who was "really into" Maid?
Are you starting a gamer babysitting service, now?
Quote from: Age of Fable;256455This is true, but the same skepticism could be applied to the creators of the game. Are they competent to handle the issue of child abuse? How do they argue for their competence?
Again, these are questions I cannot answer without having read the book [which I also encourage others to do, by the by]. Based on my limited information, it appears to have not occurred to the author as a "problem," which may well be due to the extraordinary cultural differences between ourselves and the author. But again, that's speculation with limited information.
Quote from: jeff37923;256461It doesn't have to be a bastion of evil to attract a creepy gamer.
Shadowrun contains very specific rules for blood sacrifice, and is ultimately a game about felonious criminal activity; while most players are "just folks," some of these elements attract a certain type of person. Vampire is perhaps even more guilty of attracting people I consider "creepy." But I don't blame the games for that, but rather the creepy people. And I don't worry too much about people mistaking me for them.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256457Entertainment is entertainment. Drawing a distinction between them is naive.
No, it just demonstrates a lack of discrimination.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256457Really, show me the foundation or your side of the argument? How is this conversation anything but nonsense, unless we can predict the future?
Well, for starters I never said that
Poison'd or
Maid would destroy the hobby. I did say that I don't want the kind of player who ejoys those games to be attracted and accepted into the hobby as its mainstream. I think they would tend to be creepy gamers.
Quote from: jeff37923;256461It doesn't have to be a bastion of evil to attract a creepy gamer.
The same can be said for any roleplaying game.
When I worked at a movie theater the Disney cartoon Mulan premiered and we had this guy who watched it 64+ times. He'd come to the theater, pay for all day's showings and read a book between showtimes.
After a few weeks of this we ended up having to kick him out. He was standing near our ticket taker as familys were lined up for a newer kid's movie (Matilda I think). He made a comment about how he thought Mulan was sexy but she had small tits. We escorted him out and it turns out he'd been masturbating in the shows when he was pretty much alone, which after two to three weeks he had more than a few opportunities.
Creepy people exist, no matter how hard you try you can't get rid of them. They're attracted to a variety of things, often which hold no intrinsic perversion of their own.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;256468Are you starting a gamer babysitting service, now?
I'm saying, the argument is that the game itself is not any different from other RPGs, and that the type of people it might attract is not any different from regular gamers.
I don't think that's true at all. I know if I was a dad, all else being equal, which one I'd rather have babysitting my 10 year old daughter. Hint: its the one that isn't into the game about 10 year old girls in transparent maid uniforms.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;256465Paul, would you prefer your daughter be babysat by someone who was "really into" D&D, or someone who was "really into" Maid?
Without knowing anything else about the person, it would be impossible to judge. You cannot judge someone's competence to watch your children based on a single criterion. It's a spurious argument intended to elicit an emotional response, a response not based on logic but rather on the same visceral emotional reaction I mentioned earlier.
Honestly, "high school debater" is an elevation.
Quote from: jeff37923;256471I did say that I don't want the kind of player who ejoys those games to be attracted and accepted into the hobby as its mainstream.
To be part of the mainstream of the hobby, they would have to play D&D.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256462Too late, anything you do for entertainment is technically in a shared category. That doesn't mean you're a pervert, it just means you (like many others) like doing things purely for fun.
Being that they're both forms of entertainment you can draw comparisons between the two hobbies even if they aren't the same thing.
Bullshit.
I enjoy horseback riding and RPGs. You are claiming that they are a shared category because I enjoy both and I can find more differences than similarities with minimal effort. You need to discriminate more.
The bigger turn-off for me and most people I associate with in a gaming store is either the non-communicative, eye-contact avoiding young male who is far more concerned with maxing out his wh40k army or Magic deck than actually helping anyone or the monotonal know-it-all egomaniac who can't answer a simple question without going into a long detailed monologue about his personal take on the subject of the question.
I think if we really want to help protect the hobby, we have a lot more work to do with those two than the few indie hipsters who want to buy a copy of Maid.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256472The same can be said for any roleplaying game.
When I worked at a movie theater the Disney cartoon Mulan premiered and we had this guy who watched it 64+ times. He'd come to the theater, pay for all day's showings and read a book between showtimes.
After a few weeks of this we ended up having to kick him out. He was standing near our ticket taker as familys were lined up for a newer kid's movie (Matilda I think). He made a comment about how he thought Mulan was sexy but she had small tits. We escorted him out and it turns out he'd been masturbating in the shows when he was pretty much alone, which after two to three weeks he had more than a few opportunities.
Creepy people exist, no matter how hard you try you can't get rid of them. They're attracted to a variety of things, often which hold no intrinsic perversion of their own.
So when a game comes along that appeals to the creepy gamer like a hentai anime would have appealed to the creepy movie masturbater you had to deal with, its something you want promoted?
"Hey creepy gamers! Come and join Sailor Bubba in a game of Maid! It'll be a tentacle right up your alley! You can now claim to be a RPG gamer and finally be accepted within a peer group!"
Quote from: RPGPundit;256465Paul, would you prefer your daughter be babysat by someone who was "really into" D&D, or someone who was "really into" Maid?
I get where you're trying to go with this, and if all I had was those two factors to pass judgment with then maybe this would be an issue.
(Luckily I go with option C, which is I don't game with people I wouldn't want around my kids or in my house, no matter what game they play or why. Fucked up is not a symptom of the game, but rather a symptom of their fucked up lives.)
Quote from: RPGPundit;256473I'm saying, the argument is that the game itself is not any different from other RPGs, and that the type of people it might attract is not any different from regular gamers.
*Shrug*
Boiled down that far, I don't have a comment either way around.
In terms of the existence of the game as an object, I don't have much concern. I'd consider running Maid for a very small group of my players - who are all female. The same ones that played through (I shit you not)
Pleasure Prison of the B'Thuvian Demon Whore. We'd play it once, laugh like hyenas, and be done.
Now, if you're talking about a serious fan community, that's where we start running into oddities. Because such a community would create a place where Hentai fandom and RPG people would interact (something thus far exiled to the dark festering reaches of 4chan).
The book-as-a-book, I shrug. Some of the potential fan communities, sitting latent and unexpressed... They make me twitch to consider. But I'll wait, and if such things grow, I'll condemn
those.
If there had been a community of hardcore HoL nasty-fans, big on torture jokes and dirty little-boy-and-a-priest stories, I'd have been filled with piss and vinegar.
But there weren't.
And I don't think we'll see it here, either.
And let me be clear, I don't think that any of you are wrong for disliking the game-that's certainly well within your rights. (Not that you need me to tell you that right?) I just disagree with some of your posted reactions-these games are not in a position to take over the hobby, nor will they ever be, regardless of whether a few of you protest or not. I think, for my part, your efforts would be better spent on other things. (I sound like Kyle I know. I'll do some penance later.)
Quote from: Engine;256474You cannot judge someone's competence to watch your children based on a single criterion.
Depending on that "single criterion" you certainly could.
Quote from: RPGPundit;256473I don't think that's true at all. I know if I was a dad, all else being equal, which one I'd rather have babysitting my 10 year old daughter. Hint: its the one that isn't into the game about 10 year old girls in transparent maid uniforms.
Okay, for the record: Maid isn't "about" 10yo girls in transparent maid uniforms; that is merely an isolated example of play that will (according to the translators) be removed from future editions of the game. The vast, vast majority of the game's actual text contains nothing so perverse.
Just as I don't want the non-dodgy 95% of the game's content to magically sanitize the irredeemably creepy 5%*, I don't want the creepy 5% of the game's content to unfairly tarnish the 95% that is no less above-board than the hobby in general. Calling a spade a spade works both ways.
KoOS
* Yes, I do think that the irredeemably creepy 5% of the book draws from a larger body of irredeemably creepy pedophilic hentai and that there's some overlap of interest, but I'm talking about the game as written.
Quote from: CavScout;256485Depending on that "single criterion" you certainly could.
An excellent point. In this case, I don't think the predictive value of "plays Maid" is high enough to make a differentiation, particularly given the default gamestate of Maid, which seems to be anime-silly, not hentai-rapey.
Quote from: walkerp;256477The bigger turn-off for me and most people I associate with in a gaming store is either the non-communicative, eye-contact avoiding young male who is far more concerned with maxing out his wh40k army or Magic deck than actually helping anyone or the monotonal know-it-all egomaniac who can't answer a simple question without going into a long detailed monologue about his personal take on the subject of the question.
I think if we really want to help protect the hobby, we have a lot more work to do with those two than the few indie hipsters who want to buy a copy of Maid.
Insofar as you're talking about the hobby in general, I agree with this 100% and said so in the other thread (albeit you forgot the key term "fatbeard").
KoOS
Quote from: Serious Paul;256484And let me be clear, I don't think that any of you are wrong for disliking the game-that's certainly well within your rights. (Not that you need me to tell you that right?) I just disagree with some of your posted reactions-these games are not in a position to take over the hobby, nor will they ever be, regardless of whether a few of you protest or not.
Yes.
Quote from: King of Old School;256487Just as I don't want the non-dodgy 95% of the game's content to magically sanitize the irredeemably creepy 5%*, I don't want the creepy 5% of the game's content to unfairly tarnish the 95% that is no less above-board than the hobby in general. Calling a spade a spade works both ways.
Yes.
Thank you for the voices of moderation and the excluded middle.
I'm coming at this conversation purely from the angle of a gamer who finds the whole idea funny and absurd. I doubt it's going to have any negative impact on my gaming group, or even the hobby as a whole. I doubt I'll be attending the hentai, rape, schoolgirl fetish seminar at next year's GenCon.
I just find it hilarious when people panic at the thought of a little perverse humor existing in a world with a long tradition of perverse humor.
Quote from: jeff37923;256478So when a game comes along that appeals to the creepy gamer like a hentai anime would have appealed to the creepy movie masturbater you had to deal with, its something you want promoted?
"Hey creepy gamers! Come and join Sailor Bubba in a game of Maid! It'll be a tentacle right up your alley! You can now claim to be a RPG gamer and finally be accepted within a peer group!"
I don't personally want it promoted, but I don't believe I have a right to keep it from being promoted just the same. I'll just not care and let it succeed or fail on it's own.
Unfortunately he has the right to be creepy, now hopefully some media will come along that keeps him home masturbating rather than in the theater during a movie for kids. We joked about him being a pervert before we knew it was actually true. The point is I had no right to keep him from the movie just because we had suspicions that he was going in there all the time for creepy reasons. Even though we were right it wasn't until he shared his perversion that we were able to take action.
Should we have censored Mulan from the theater after that incident? Should we censor an RPG because it has the potential for drawing in perverts? No. If a player showed up to my game with Maid I'd refuse to play and probably be upset that he brought that kind of game to our table. (Our host has kids.)
You seem to think that the Maid RPG will fill our nice community with heathens. Which is just as insane as me saying Maid is the same as Dungeons and Dragons.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256494Unfortunately he has the right to be creepy,
That doesn't mean that he will be given immunity from ostracism or scorn because he chooses to be creepy.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256494Should we have censored Mulan from the theater after that incident? Should we censor an RPG because it has the potential for drawing in perverts?
No to both, but we don't have to welcome any creepy gamers a RPG attracts with its content, either. Or we could just be pre-emptive and discourage the RPG that attracts creepy gamers.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256494If a player showed up to my game with Maid I'd refuse to play and probably be upset that he brought that kind of game to our table. (Our host has kids.)
So it seems that we are of a like-mindedness on the subject. A question though, which would you be the more upset by, the game
Maid showing up or the player who brought it to play?
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256494You seem to think that the Maid RPG will fill our nice community with heathens. Which is just as insane as me saying Maid is the same as Dungeons and Dragons.
I think that there are enough heathens already in our nice community. I don't want to attract any more and would like to remove a few that have made this hobby their home.
Quote from: jeff37923;256505No to both, but we don't have to welcome any creepy gamers a RPG attracts with its content, either. Or we could just be pre-emptive and discourage the RPG that attracts creepy gamers.
Do we know what percentage of Maid players are creepy? I mean, what you're talking about is prejudice, discrimination against a person on the basis of a game they play. Now, if 99 percent of Maid players are baby-raping weirdos, then yeah, you can make a logical case that maybe we should discourage the RPG [which I think is already being done, quite nicely]. But if there isn't a strong correlation between the two - or if
we don't know the correlation - I think it's unjust to discriminate against the
game for the actions of
a few or an unknown number of its participants.
Quote from: Engine;256507Do we know what percentage of Maid players are creepy? I mean, what you're talking about is prejudice, discrimination against a person on the basis of a game they play. Now, if 99 percent of Maid players are baby-raping weirdos, then yeah, you can make a logical case that maybe we should discourage the RPG [which I think is already being done, quite nicely]. But if there isn't a strong correlation between the two - or if we don't know the correlation - I think it's unjust to discriminate against the game for the actions of a few or an unknown number of its participants.
I don't know what exact percentage of FATAL or
Poison'd players are creepy, but I still don't want a player who is attracted to that kind of content in a game around my hobby. Same with
Maid, the kind of player who would enjoy a game where their role-playing character is at the bottom-most social rung and must take various forms of abuse while performing their job and pretend to put up with it smiling, isn't the kind of player I want around.
Social justice be damned, I'll stick to common sense in my gaming prejudices and discriminations.
Quote from: jeff37923;256505That doesn't mean that he will be given immunity from ostracism or scorn because he chooses to be creepy.
Why take the time to ostracize or scorn him? He keeps to himself I couldn't care less.
Quote from: jeff37923;256505No to both, but we don't have to welcome any creepy gamers a RPG attracts with its content, either. Or we could just be pre-emptive and discourage the RPG that attracts creepy gamers.
Being pre-emptive can get you in trouble and never works in the end. Prohibition?
Quote from: jeff37923;256505So it seems that we are of a like-mindedness on the subject. A question though, which would you be the more upset by, the game Maid showing up or the player who brought it to play?
The player, for not having the common sense to keep such content away from the prying eyes of children. I would probably laugh at the game were we in a different location (like that player's home). The game itself wouldn't upset me at all.
Quote from: jeff37923;256505I think that there are enough heathens already in our nice community. I don't want to attract any more and would like to remove a few that have made this hobby their home.
See that's the view that bothers me. I'll admire you for having a good moral foundation, however I have to oppose you for trying to impose those morals on anyone else. Where do you draw the line? What gives you the right to say who stays and who goes? Ideally everything should be taken on a case by case basis. People should be judged fairly regardless of what games they play. Sadly people seem generally unable to do that.
A kid gets hurt at a playground and parents get the playground torn down. Now nobody gets to have fun. That is a sad trend happening in this world and it's a bad trend. Nevermind that the kid had no respect for the playground equipment and got hurt thanks to improper parent supervision or because of his own unnacceptable behavior.
This example is why I draw parallels between unrelated forms of entertainment. No matter the hobby, nobody is served by pre-emptive censorship. We're taking the emphasis off the shoulders of the individual, who should be responsible for their own actions.
The gun doesn't kill people. The porn magazine doesn't create the pervert. The Maid RPG doesn't ruin the hobby. People do these things, they are responsible. We don't need to be protected from the outside world, the outside world needs to be protected from us.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256513Why take the time to ostracize or scorn him? He keeps to himself I couldn't care less.
To keep others like him away.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256513Being pre-emptive can get you in trouble and never works in the end. Prohibition?
I'll take that risk because comparing Prohibition to deciding who you think is a creepy gamer and don't want around your hobby are two extraordinarily different subjects.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256513See that's the view that bothers me. Where do you draw the line? What gives you the right to say who stays and who goes?
Ideally everything should be taken on a case by case basis. People should be judged fairly regardless of what games they play. Sadly people seem generally unable to do that.
A kid gets hurt at a playground and parents get the playground torn down. Now nobody gets to have fun. That is a sad trend happening in this world and it's a bad trend. Nevermind that the kid had no respect for the playground equipment and got hurt thanks to improper parent supervision or because of his own unnacceptable behavior.
This example is why I draw parallels between unrelated forms of entertainment. No matter the hobby, nobody is served by pre-emptive censorship. We're taking the emphasis off the shoulders of the individual, who should be responsible for their own actions.
The gun doesn't kill people. The porn magazine doesn't create the pervert. The Maid RPG doesn't ruin the hobby. People do these things, they are responsible. We don't need to be protected from the outside world, the outside world needs to be protected from us.
I'm talking about not wanting creepy gamers in my hobby and not wanting games that will attract creepy gamers to my hobby. I'm really not sure what you are talking about.
Quote from: jeff37923;256519To keep others like him away.
Why?
Quote from: jeff37923;256519I'll take that risk because comparing Prohibition to deciding who you think is a creepy gamer and don't want around your hobby are two extraordinarily different subjects.
Why are they different?
Quote from: jeff37923;256519I'm talking about not wanting creepy gamers in my hobby and not wanting games that will attract creepy gamers to my hobby. I'm really not sure what you are talking about.
Your hobby? I'm sorry I didn't realize you were it's number one member. :P
What you talk about is pre-emptive censorship and it's wrong. You have no right to tell me what games I can and can't play. You have no right to tell companies what they can and cannot publish. You have no right to take the playground away from the other kids just because yours fell off the monkey bars.
Just because you precieve a threat doesn't mean you have a right to remove it. The Maid RPG is not a bomb threat, and nobody has appointed you sherriff of roleplaying town.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256525What you talk about is pre-emptive censorship and it's wrong. You have no right to tell me what games I can and can't play. You have no right to tell companies what they can and cannot publish.
He has
every right to tell you such stuff,
and to tell them such stuff.
Neither you nor they are required in any way to listen. Or care.
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;256528He has every right to tell you such stuff, and to tell them such stuff.
Neither you nor they are required in any way to listen. Or care.
Good point. Although telling is a bad word. He can ask them not to publish it, and ask people not to buy it, even ask conventions not to allow people to play it.
So yes maybe he's just sharing his concerns, which is his right. Unfortunately he's using words that can be described as discrimination at best.
"We don't like your kind 'round these parts." is not the kind of phrase I wish to see abused at roleplaying conventions. Eventually we weed out all the people that we feel are creepy in any way and what do we have left? Other communities have tried it and it leads to inbreeding. :P
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256534So he's sharing his concerns, unfortunately he's using words that can be described as discrimination at best.
Pshaw.
Next thing, you'll be telling me that just because I universally refer to posting on Facebook as "Feeding the stalkers", I'm being reactionary.
Quote from: RPGPundit;256342Maid does this by contributing, along with almost all the other Forger games, to the overall feeling that "this is the sort of stuff we RPG gamers are into!". Its like putting up a big sign saying "Lawncrappers welcome!".
If Maid / Poison'd was in half the book stores and game stores, I could see where your concern would make sense. But the reality is that small press games (of any quality) are almost completely absent from game stores, certainly absent from nearly all book stores and only exist within the Online / Convention community of hardcore gamers...who mostly just play D&D.
Quote from: Serious Paul;256177I use my wallet to express my opinions on games. I don't like it, I don't buy it. I don't play it. That simple.
Trends follow the money. If a trend has no profit potential, that trend dies.
Quote from: Casey777;256196Carcosa, among many other "weird" things, has a PC class, Sorcerer, that uses human sacrifice to help power most of its spells. Children, exotic (including illegal) ingredients, torture & violence (both physical and / or sexual) are often involved.
My copy of Carcosa arrived this morning. I will be doing a review for RPG.net and I have flipped through the book. Yes, naked human sacrifice is the key component in most rituals...aka, it emulates the murderous sorcery described in Lovecraft, Howard and Moorcock. I have seen no references (so far) to children or sexual violence.
If you want to play a Sorcerer who does not sacrifice, you can do banishing rituals. But like Melnibone, Carcosa is a place where blood flows to ignite magic.
Quote from: walkerp;256282What combats do you get into in this game that would take place in a mansion that has a robot maid? I'm more intrigued than I was.
This is how threads sell copies.
Quote from: jeff37923;256512the kind of player who would enjoy a game where their role-playing character is at the bottom-most social rung and must take various forms of abuse while performing their job and pretend to put up with it smiling, isn't the kind of player I want around.
Hmm....so no Paranoia?
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256525Why?
Because it is my belief that if you allow creepy gamers into your games, then they will drive away the rest of the gamers who might have brought more than just creepiness to the game table. If, however, you like surrounding yourself with creepy gamers, then be my guest. Just don't complain when you find that nobody besides creepy gamers wish to play at your table.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256513Why are they different?
If you can't figure out why prohibition and keeping things that attract creepy gamers away, you're just plain fucked. :p
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256513Your hobby? I'm sorry I didn't realize you were it's number one member. :P
What you talk about is pre-emptive censorship and it's wrong. You have no right to tell me what games I can and can't play. You have no right to tell companies what they can and cannot publish. You have no right to take the playground away from the other kids just because yours fell off the monkey bars.
Just because you precieve a threat doesn't mean you have a right to remove it. The Maid RPG is not a bomb threat, and nobody has appointed you sherriff of roleplaying town.
It is my hobby, therefore I take ownership of my opinion about it.
And it isn't that I percieve
Maid as a threat. I percieve
Maid as an attractant of creepy gamers who I don't want to be associated with my hobby.
Quote from: jeff37923;256512Social justice be damned, I'll stick to common sense in my gaming prejudices and discriminations.
You won't be alone: it's what most people do. We don't consider things, we don't apply logic to things, we don't seek out information to verify our opinions, we just judge, mostly subconsciously, and call it "common sense." I do it all the time. I guess the difference is that I try not to, and when someone points out that I'm doing it, I reconsider.
Which isn't to say you should do the same; being more like me might not be particularly appealing to you. ;)
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;256536Pshaw.
Next thing, you'll be telling me that just because I universally refer to posting on Facebook as "Feeding the stalkers", I'm being reactionary.
No, that's hilarious, but still discrimination. :D
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256534He can ask them not to publish it, and ask people not to buy it, even ask conventions not to allow people to play it.
Actually, I think that would be taking it too far. Although if a convention were going to allow it to be run, I'd want that convention to understand the controversy around it and be familiar with the game itself.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256513So yes maybe he's just sharing his concerns, which is his right. Unfortunately he's using words that can be described as discrimination at best.
"We don't like your kind 'round these parts." is not the kind of phrase I wish to see abused at roleplaying conventions. Eventually we weed out all the people that we feel are creepy in any way and what do we have left? Other communities have tried it and it leads to inbreeding. :P
You are correct, I am sharing my concerns and my words are discriminatory. I do not share the geek fallacy that we should be all-inclusive in our social gaming circles.
I don't think that shunning creepy gamers and other shitbags will lead to social inbreeding. I actually think that with their negative influences on social acceptability removed, there might be more people willing to join in to a gaming social group.
Quote from: Spinachcat;256537Hmm....so no Paranoia?
Again, satire and comedy. Different animal.
Quote from: Engine;256541You won't be alone: it's what most people do. We don't consider things, we don't apply logic to things, we don't seek out information to verify our opinions, we just judge, mostly subconsciously, and call it "common sense." I do it all the time. I guess the difference is that I try not to, and when someone points out that I'm doing it, I reconsider.
Which isn't to say you should do the same; being more like me might not be particularly appealing to you. ;)
That would depend on if you brought a copy of
Maid to the gaming table or not. ;)
Quote from: jeff37923;256540And it isn't that I percieve Maid as a threat. I percieve Maid as an attractant of creepy gamers who I don't want to be associated with my hobby.
I perceive Maid as an attractant to anime fans - which I think it certainly is, moreso than a creep attractant - and I really, really hate anime. I might not like Anime Dude being at my table, although there have been some anime fans at my table that I haven't minded. But I certainly don't want to push the anime fan out of the hobby, because
I think it's big enough for all of us.There are some people on this site who play a kind of roleplaying I think is just stupid as fuck, boring, empty, and immature. I wouldn't want to sit at a table with them, no matter what game we were playing, because what they want is so very different from what I want. But those people
hate me. It's not just that they don't want me at their table, disrupting their game, they hate
me, as a person, for liking my style of game and not theirs. And I think that's just bullshit, and that's one reason it's so disturbing to hear you saying you want to push Maid players completely out of the hobby, whether they're playing anime-silly or hentai-creepy.
Quote from: jeff37923;256545That would depend on if you brought a copy of Maid to the gaming table or not. ;)
Well, that won't be a problem, then. :) I cannot
imagine playing such a game, but I'm not a fan of anime and its literary conventions, and certainly wouldn't be interested in trying to re-create them at the table. Eww.
Quote from: Engine;256546That's one reason it's so disturbing to hear you saying you want to push Maid players completely out of the hobby, whether they're playing anime-silly or hentai-creepy.
I can understand that postion and my own stance being disturbing to you. I accept that and agree to disagree on that point.
Maybe on future reflection I will find my position here wrong, just not today.
Quote from: jeff37923;256540Because it is my belief that if you allow creepy gamers into your games, then they will drive away the rest of the gamers who might have brought more than just creepiness to the game table. If, however, you like surrounding yourself with creepy gamers, then be my guest. Just don't complain when you find that nobody besides creepy gamers wish to play at your table.
Ouch. Your prediction of my future is pretty painful. Don't worry though, I have a full group and a list of 10-15 people who'd gladly join our game table. We'll be doing fine when the Maid RPG heathens come to ruin the hobby around us.
You know when a circus or carnival comes to town people jump up and protest citing the obvious "fact" that carnies are sleezy and will ruin our clean little community. It happens in my home town all the time. It's the kind of thing you see in a retirement community, and it's sad.
It's discrimination.
Quote from: jeff37923;256540If you can't figure out why prohibition and keeping things that attract creepy gamers away, you're just plain fucked. :p
Why? It's just society telling people they can't have something to pre-empt the negative things that come from it. Alcohol brings in drunks and drunk drivers so let's just do away with it, even though a majority of people who enjoy alcohol are reasonable people who have a good time and don't hurt anyone.
How is it any different? I'm not fucked. I wasn't saying Booze=Roleplaying, I was saying Prohibition=Pre-emptive Censorship in a way. Although if something as powerful as alchohol doesn't need such pre-emptive control, why would something as simple as RPGs need it?
Quote from: jeff37923;256540It is my hobby, therefore I take ownership of my opinion about it.
And it isn't that I percieve Maid as a threat. I percieve Maid as an attractant of creepy gamers who I don't want to be associated with my hobby.
Why? You don't want them associated with your hobby and yet you don't consider them a threat? I'm confused if they're not threatening then why don't you just let them be? They aren't hurting you, according to your own words.
I'm not saying you're afraid of them, I'm saying you are afraid of the effect you think they will have on "your" hobby. That makes them a threat to you. If it doesn't then why do you care?
I'd draw a parallel to homophobia but you'd just think I was calling you one rather than seeing the similarities.
Quote from: jeff37923;256553I can understand that postion and my own stance being disturbing to you. I accept that and agree to disagree on that point.
Maybe on future reflection I will find my position here wrong, just not today.
Don't worry about it. You're entitled to your own opinion after all. I'd still game with you as you seem to have good morals and a passion for the hobby. You just have to be willing to accept that your opinion here is founded on descrimination and be ok with that. I won't judge you for it. In fact if you can admit it's discrimination, then I will respect you for standing up for your views even if I think you're wrong.
Now if you start rounding up creepy gamers in concentration camps then I'll have to take a stand against you. :P
Quote from: jeff37923;256553Maybe on future reflection I will find my position here wrong, just not today.
That's about the most responsible view to take, and I adopt it as my own, as well.
Quote from: Engine;256474Without knowing anything else about the person, it would be impossible to judge. You cannot judge someone's competence to watch your children based on a single criterion. It's a spurious argument intended to elicit an emotional response, a response not based on logic but rather on the same visceral emotional reaction I mentioned earlier.
Honestly, "high school debater" is an elevation.
I would say its pretty freaking logical to figure that someone who is a fanatic of a game where you can play a 10 year old girl-maid wearing a transparent uniform (never mind all the other stuff) might not be the best choice for babysitting your 10 year old girl, REGARDLESS of any other qualifiers.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256556It's discrimination.
You make picking and choosing who to hang out with to be some crime. Do you pick who you spend your time with or do you simply go by a "first come, first served" methodology? If anything but that, are you not practicing "discrimination" as well?
Quote from: walkerp;256477The bigger turn-off for me and most people I associate with in a gaming store is either the non-communicative, eye-contact avoiding young male who is far more concerned with maxing out his wh40k army or Magic deck than actually helping anyone or the monotonal know-it-all egomaniac who can't answer a simple question without going into a long detailed monologue about his personal take on the subject of the question.
I think if we really want to help protect the hobby, we have a lot more work to do with those two than the few indie hipsters who want to buy a copy of Maid.
Yes, I agree with you that these are problems.
So shouldn't we be trying to avoid making things worse?
You can argue all you like that "hey, there are already mouthbreathing aspergers-cases social retard lawncrappers in the hobby!", and you would certainly be right.
That doesn't cancel out the argument that the sort of games the Forgers like to promote will only exasperate this existing problem, rather than do anything to help it.
RPGPundit
Quote from: CavScout;256559You make picking and choosing who to hang out with to be some crime. Do you pick who you spend your time with or do you simply go by a "first come, first served" methodology? If anything but that, are you not practicing “discrimination” as well?
Ah but I don't pick who I hang out with based on what RPGs they play, or what car they drive, or what music they listen to. I judge people based on their actions and as an individual on a case by case basis.
Everyone discriminates. I discriminate, but I am also able to admit that my discrimination never makes me right. It's not a crime, but not being a crime doesn't make something right. Cheating on your girlfriend is wrong, but it's not a crime.
EDIT: He's also not picking who to "hang out with." He's picking who everyone else gets to hang out with, which is wrong.
Look I agree with him that Maid may attract creepy people, but that doesn't make me want to see the game gone. I just don't care, I won't be playing it.
CORRECTION: Carcosa does have baby sacrifice and child sacrifice and cannibalism.
Hot Damn these rituals are freaky and nasty! Many require Save or Die rolls from the Sorcerer and many have wicked side effects. You could easily play a sword swinging barbarian in this world who kills sorcerers out of general principle.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256556It's discrimination.
Yes. Yes it is.
And I'm OK with that.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256513Why? It's just society telling people they can't have something to pre-empt the negative things that come from it. Alcohol brings in drunks and drunk drivers so let's just do away with it, even though a majority of people who enjoy alcohol are reasonable people who have a good time and don't hurt anyone.
How is it any different? I'm not fucked. I wasn't saying Booze=Roleplaying, I was saying Prohibition=Pre-emptive Censorship in a way. Although if something as powerful as alchohol doesn't need such pre-emptive control, why would something as simple as RPGs need it?
Your Prohibition analogy is too far of a stretch because I'm not asking for an Amendment to the Constitution against creepy gamers.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256513Why? You don't want them associated with your hobby and yet you don't consider them a threat? I'm confused if they're not threatening then why don't you just let them be? They aren't hurting you, according to your own words.
I'm not saying you're afraid of them, I'm saying you are afraid of the effect you think they will have on "your" hobby. That makes them a threat to you. If it doesn't then why do you care?
I'd draw a parallel to homophobia but you'd just think I was calling you one rather than seeing the similarities.
I consider creepy gamers to be an annoyance, one that this hobby can do without. I won't let the creepy gamers just be themselves because when people think about the RPG hobby, it is the creepy gamers that they use as the example. I do not want to grouped with creepy gamers as representatives of the RPG hobby.
In that, I agree that I am concerned over the effect of creepy gamers on my hobby.
As to your allusion to homophobia, that is just a cheap theatrical attempt to demonize my position. It grants you a well-earned Go Fuck Yourself.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256513Don't worry about it. You're entitled to your own opinion after all.
I'm really not worried about it and I know perfectly well that I'm entitled to my opinion.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256513I'd still game with you as you seem to have good morals and a passion for the hobby.
Words cannot express my relief...
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256513You just have to be willing to accept that your opinion here is founded on descrimination and be ok with that. I won't judge you for it. In fact if you can admit it's discrimination, then I will respect you for standing up for your views even if I think you're wrong.
I'm fine with my discriminating opinion. It serves me well.
You are the one with a heartache over it.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256513Now if you start rounding up creepy gamers in concentration camps then I'll have to take a stand against you. :P
Godwin.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256561EDIT: He's also not picking who to "hang out with." He's picking who everyone else gets to hang out with, which is wrong.
I'm assuming the "he' you are referring to is me.
And as I've said above, I don't care if you choose to hang out with creepy gamers, just don't be surprised when everyone else leaves.
For myself, because that is the only person I can really speak for, I choose to be discriminate and intolerant of the creepy gamer or any other gamer who brings detriment to this RPG hobby. I'm perfectly OK with doing that.
Quote from: jeff37923;256567Yes. Yes it is.
And I'm OK with that.
Cool, I can respect that then.
Quote from: jeff37923;256567Your Prohibition analogy is too far of a stretch because I'm not asking for an Amendment to the Constitution against creepy gamers.
Yeah I have a tendancy to use examples that are sometimes a bit much but the point is still there. Would you ask for a constitutional amendment against it if you thought it would work? Keeping them out of the hobby is just as strong, may as well go all the way if you want to go that far.
Quote from: jeff37923;256567I consider creepy gamers to be an annoyance, one that this hobby can do without. I won't let the creepy gamers just be themselves because when people think about the RPG hobby, it is the creepy gamers that they use as the example. I do not want to grouped with creepy gamers as representatives of the RPG hobby.
In that, I agree that I am concerned over the effect of creepy gamers on my hobby.
Yes, but you're better than them right? Why not focus on showing people that you are a better person than the people you dislike, rather than taking the time to point out why they are to be disliked?
Quote from: jeff37923;256567As to your allusion to homophobia, that is just a cheap theatrical attempt to demonize my position. It grants you a well-earned Go Fuck Yourself.
Don't get worked up now. Probably should have just kept my mouth shut but I thought it was funny (not homophobia, that's asinine.)
What I meant was that homophobic people make complaints and then back up their complaints with discrimination as if their prejudice makes them right. It had nothing to do with gay people or your opinion of them.
This discussion is getting too salty and I'm not helping, so I apologize for any misunderstanding.
Quote from: jeff37923;256567I'm fine with my discriminating opinion. It serves me well.
You are the one with a heartache over it.
Godwin.
My heartache is over the fact that someone with so much to say would waste breath on something so full of discrimination when there are other ways to express your opinion of which I am convinced that you are capable. Be the better man, rise above discrimination is all I'm hoping for.
It's hard to do, I have my own issues with discrimination but I'm trying to be the better man.
Quote from: jeff37923;256570I'm assuming the "he' you are referring to is me.
And as I've said above, I don't care if you choose to hang out with creepy gamers, just don't be surprised when everyone else leaves.
For myself, because that is the only person I can really speak for, I choose to be discriminate and intolerant of the creepy gamer or any other gamer who brings detriment to this RPG hobby. I'm perfectly OK with doing that.
I wouldn't game with them either, but you said keep them out of the hobby as a whole. Were you just saying you didn't want them at your table then I'd have never spoken up.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256561Ah but I don't pick who I hang out with based on what RPGs they play, or what car they drive, or what music they listen to. I judge people based on their actions and as an individual on a case by case basis.
How is "picking which RPGs they play" not an action on their part? Someone who chooses to play
Schutzstaffel: The adventures of camp guards and enjoys PCs who get favors based on the number of Jews run through the crematorium is going to find themselves outside my circle of friends. Perhaps you wouldn't toss them out, but I would and would have zero qualms about it.
Quote from: CavScout;256575How is "picking which RPGs they play" not an action on their part? Someone who chooses to play Schutzstaffel: The adventures of camp guards and enjoys PCs who get favors based on the number of Jews run through the crematorium is going to find themselves outside my circle of friends. Perhaps you wouldn't toss them out, but I would and would have zero qualms about it.
Creepy gamers = Nazis? Ok I know that wasn't your point but I've made similar examples and had something like that thrown back at me. Now all joking aside:
No I wouldn't play that game or allow it at my table, after all as I said we have kids in the house where we play. If the player in question liked to burn jews or attend hate rallies in his spare time then we would not be friends that's for certain but it would have nothing to do with his RPG purchases and everything to do with him as a person.
So if I buy the Maid RPG you would automatically hate me even if I bought it for the humor factor. That's pretty harsh. I know you probably don't like me (thanks to previous threads) and it's my fault for my often silly examples but I assure you I'm a pretty boring and all around good guy.
I like really bad horror movies with lots of gore and horrid acting, I have a particular body piercing that would make my mom twitch, and I recently quit smoking so I eat like a pig but that doesn't make me a bad guy.
The fact is I'm not talking about individual group preferences. I'm talking about the idea that these "creepy gamers" should be removed from the hobby as a whole.
Quote from: Spinachcat;256563CORRECTION: Carcosa does have baby sacrifice and child sacrifice and cannibalism.
Hot Damn these rituals are freaky and nasty! Many require Save or Die rolls from the Sorcerer and many have wicked side effects. You could easily play a sword swinging barbarian in this world who kills sorcerers out of general principle.
Wouldn't that actually be closer to the source material than having PC sorcerers?
Or you could have a game world which has evil Carcosa magic and good/neutral D&D magic, which would be more 'high fantasy'.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256576Creepy gamers = Nazis? Ok I know that wasn't your point but I've made similar examples and had something like that thrown back at me. Now all joking aside:
No I wouldn't play that game or allow it at my table, after all as I said we have kids in the house where we play. If the player in question liked to burn jews or attend hate rallies in his spare time then we would not be friends that's for certain but it would have nothing to do with his RPG purchases and everything to do with him as a person.
Them activily seeking out to play such a game would be enough for me to make a decision. What games they choose to play, and how they play any game, are clues to who they are.
What, and how, they play games are actions they decided to make.
QuoteSo if I buy the Maid RPG you would automatically hate me even if I bought it for the humor factor. That's pretty harsh. I know you probably don't like me (thanks to previous threads) and it's my fault for my often silly examples but I assure you I'm a pretty boring and all around good guy.
I haven't made a comment one way or the other about
Maid RPG. I have been responding to excuses people have been using as to why you can't judge people based on the games they choose to associate with.
If, and this is a big
if,
Maid RPG is really about playing underage girls in subserviant and sexual roles then yes you choosing to play it would be a reflection on your character.
QuoteI like really bad horror movies with lots of gore and horrid acting, I have a particular body piercing that would make my mom twitch, and I recently quit smoking so I eat like a pig but that doesn't make me a bad guy.
Not sure what one has to do with the other. There's behavior you like and behavior you don't. There's odd behavior, there's weird behavior, there's even deviant behavior. Then there's unacceptable behavior.
They are all not equal behaviors.
Quote from: Engine;256470Again, these are questions I cannot answer without having read the book [which I also encourage others to do, by the by]. Based on my limited information, it appears to have not occurred to the author as a "problem," which may well be due to the extraordinary cultural differences between ourselves and the author. But again, that's speculation with limited information.
Maybe - but surely the people responsible for translating it and putting out an English-language edition would've thought about how it was going to be received?
Quote from: CavScout;256579Them activily seeking out to play such a game would be enough for me to make a decision. What games they choose to play, and how they play any game, are clues to who they are.
What, and how, they play games are actions they decided to make.
Right. Using that to determine who gets to game at your house is one thing, using that to determine who gets to game anywhere else is another issue entirely. On the flip side, if you let a nazi game at your table, I'd not want to be a part of it. However you won't catch me trying to remove that person from the hobby, that is not my place.
I think you've got the right idea here BTW. You're keeping your points specific to your own gaming table. Some other people are extending their opinions beyond their personal space and into the realm of controlling other people's choices for the betterment of the hobby.
Quote from: CavScout;256579I haven't made a comment one way or the other about Maid RPG. I have been responding to excuses people have been using as to why you can't judge people based on the games they choose to associate with.
If, and this is a big if, Maid RPG is really about playing underage girls in subserviant and sexual roles then yes you choosing to play it would be a reflection on your character.
I agree. I only brought up Maid because it's the topic of this thread. This could apply to any game. I'm only concerned with the idea that "creepy gamers" should be removed from the hobby altogether.
Quote from: CavScout;256579Not sure what one has to do with the other. There's behavior you like and behavior you don't. There's odd behavior, there's weird behavior, there's even deviant behavior. Then there's unacceptable behavior.
They are all not equal behaviors.
Eh that was just me rambling off things that I shouldn't be judged for. A half thought really but my point is that you may not like my taste in movies, you might even choose not to roleplay with me because I like those films. The thing you can not do is decide that I don't belong in the RPG community at all because you don't agree with my personal tastes. That's the kind of dangerous thinking that has cropped up here and it bothers me.
I think there's a generalization being made that this RPG will attract only one kind of gamer and hence it needs to be purged from existence for the better of the community.
Quote from: Age of Fable;256582Maybe - but surely the people responsible for translating it and putting out an English-language edition would've thought about how it was going to be received?
You would think that. This happens with any translation from books to films. I thought the same thing about Takashi Miike's Dead or Alive films which are definitely not compatible with our American culture. I have a very good friend who loves those films, doesn't make him any less of a good friend.
NOTE: Carcosa rituals also contain a few requiring rapes...and humans are differentiated by extreme skin color and they tend not to like other humans with different skin colors. I wanna play a Bone Man with transparent flesh!
Quote from: Age of Fable;256578Wouldn't that actually be closer to the source material than having PC sorcerers?
D&D has a tradition of allowing evil or chaotic characters be listed as potential player characters, most notably the Assassin.
You could be a "good" sorcerer who defends the world against Cthuloid entities by simply performing the binding rituals to keep them from causing havoc across the surface world.
Or you could be a "neutral" sorcerer who gathers up those people he considers "evil" and use their deaths to give you access to incredible power and knowledge.
Or you could play a very "evil" character who really, really wants to bind the Squamous Worm of the Pit to his will and then demand the secrets of unreality from Yog-Sogoth...
Quote from: Age of Fable;256578Or you could have a game world which has evil Carcosa magic and good/neutral D&D magic, which would be more 'high fantasy'.
You could, but it dilutes the impact. Unlike high fantasy, Carcosa draws a stark line between swords and sorcery and players will be taking sides along with deciding if they are aligned for or against the Cthuloid chaos.
Quote from: jeff37923;256427If moral outrage leads to lack of profitability then the results are the same, aren't they.
QuoteNot as you are describing them. My point is store owners do not carry maid because it does not make them money, not because it is about maids. Sure, there might be a few who do it from moral outrage but they will be rare. And in the end, the result? None. The hobby is not destroyed. Now, if there was some immoral book that came out for d20...oops, there was and somehow we are not all playing bondage freaks.
The short version, few things that "will change/destroy/promote the hobby" do. Most just do not have the marketing or saturation to make a dent. Note: by marketing I do not mean advertising only but more importantly the design to appeal to a wide segment of the market.
Bill
Quote from: Spinachcat;256584NOTE: Carcosa rituals also contain a few requiring rapes...and humans are differentiated by extreme skin color and they tend not to like other humans with different skin colors. I wanna play a Bone Man with transparent flesh!
Ah, so that must have been inspired by the rape results tables in the original Blackmoor supplement.
No, wait, what it sounds like is Carcosa went totally off the rails, and everyone is claiming a few pictures in Eldritch Wizardry indicates the depraved nature of the original rules, which was carried to its natural conclusion in Carcosa or Poison'd.
As regards The Book of Ebon Bindings (http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1501084), it was clear that it was over the top, almost cartoonish evil:
Quote...Unfortunately, their bubble was burst when it was pointed out that the author had purposely made the sacrifices so extreme that it would be impossible for anyone (short of a despotic Asian dictator) to carry them out -- one particularly powerful demon requires a sacrifice of five thousand slaves, each one enucleated and the eye sockets filled with rubies.
Hardly the same as imagining all the ways an eleven year old in a transparent outfit can perform sexual acts, wouldn't you think?
So, like the tired cries of 'D&D was always a tactical wargame', the equally tired cry of 'RPGs always had perversions' is just as false, and just as disingenuous.
Quote from: StormBringer;256591Hardly the same as imagining all the ways an eleven year old in a transparent outfit can perform sexual acts, wouldn't you think?
Is this in the
Maid rules?
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David R;256592Is this in the Maid rules?
Regards,
David R
I'm curious as well. I'd gotten the impression that while the game could be used that way, it wasn't explicitly in the rulebook.
Quote from: David R;256592Is this in the Maid rules?
Regards,
David R
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256596I'm curious as well. I'd gotten the impression that while the game could be used that way, it wasn't explicitly in the rulebook.
Pundit used the online character creator and came up with that one.
A few examples:
Uniform Color: transparent Hair Color: indigo Eye Color: white Maid Types: Boyish & Boyish Special Qualities: Former Delinquent, Miniskirt, Shinigami, Evil Secret Society, Nekomimi Favored Attribute: Athletics Maid Power: Trespass Maid Weapon: Spear/Lance Stress Explosion: Shopping
Your name is hh. You are 12 years old. You have white eyes and indigo hair, and wear a transparent maid uniform. You are very boyish; others describe you as energetic, wild and a tomboy.
Although no one would know it looking at you now, you used to be a delinquent; for now, no one else in the mansion knows. Your maid uniform includes a particular short, tight miniskirt. You are actually a shinigami, a death reaper which carries with you an aura of death. You are a member of an evil secret society bent on world domination or destruction. You are a catgirl, possessing a variety of feline features.
In combat, you wield a spear, javelin or the like. When you are extremely upset, you go on a mad shopping spree. Due to your notable Athletics, you have the ability Trespass. You can take 1d6 Stress to intrude on a battle, love scene, etc. You can also butt in after the action has ended, and this can even work when someone is using World for Two.
Uniform Color: transparent Hair Color: black Eye Color: blue Maid Types: Lolita & Heroine Special Qualities: Freckles, Angel/Devil, Brown Skin, Collar, Bad Reputation Favored Attribute: Affection Maid Power: Passionate Gaze Maid Weapon: Summoning Stress Explosion: Alcohol/Drugs
Your name is hh. You are 11 years old. You have blue eyes and black hair, and wear a transparent maid uniform. You are childlike and heroic; others describe you as young, single-minded and spirited.
You have a great deal of freckles. You are a being from a world beyond this mortal coil, charged with judging good and evil. Your skin is a beautiful, deep brown color. Your maid outfit includes a collar, like a dog's. You were involved in some very bad things in the past, making you a legend for all the wrong reasons.
In combat, you are able to summon some kind of special being to attack your enemies. When you are extremely upset, you drink alcohol or take drugs until you can't remember anymore. Due to your notable Affection, you have the ability Passionate Gaze. With just a glance, you can ingratiate yourself with the master, taking 1d6 Stress to gain 1d3 Favor.
Uniform Color: transparent Hair Color: black Eye Color: blue Maid Types: Sexy & Pure Special Qualities: Overactive Imagination, Killed Your Lover, Betrayal, Chains, Raven Favored Attribute: Affection Maid Power: Passionate Gaze Maid Weapon: Stun Gun Stress Explosion: Rampage
Your name is hh. You are 11 years old. You have blue eyes and black hair, and wear a transparent maid uniform. You are sexy and pure; others describe you as pure, curvy and coquettish.
You frequently get caught up in your own imaginary world, getting lost in frequent daydreams and having trouble distinguishing fact from your own fiction. You had a lover once, but something terrible happened, and their death was by your hands; you've been afraid to fall in love again ever since. You were once deeply betrayed by a lover; you've been afraid to love again ever since. Your uniform has jangling chains attached to it. You are actually a raven, with black wings that can be displayed or hidden at will.
In combat, you keep a stun gun ready to attack enemies. When you are extremely upset, you use anything you can lay your hands on to run around destroying things around the mansion. Due to your notable Affection, you have the ability Passionate Gaze. With just a glance, you can ingratiate yourself with the master, taking 1d6 Stress to gain 1d3 Favor.
Quote from: HinterWelt;256585Quote from: jeff37923;256427If moral outrage leads to lack of profitability then the results are the same, aren't they.
Not as you are describing them. My point is store owners do not carry maid because it does not make them money, not because it is about maids.
Sure, there might be a few who do it from moral outrage but they will be rare. And in the end, the result? None. The hobby is not destroyed. Now, if there was some immoral book that came out for d20...oops, there was and somehow we are not all playing bondage freaks.
No, I'm afraid it is exactly as I am describing it. Books like
Maid or
The Book of Erotic Fantasy are not carried by stores because the store owner knows that they will not sell due precisely to the "moral outrage" that they will cause.That is why a store owner would not carry it.
Instead of debating the point, just ask your average FLGS owner like I did and digest the answer you get.
Quote from: HinterWelt;256585The short version, few things that "will change/destroy/promote the hobby" do. Most just do not have the marketing or saturation to make a dent. Note: by marketing I do not mean advertising only but more importantly the design to appeal to a wide segment of the market.
I don't think I've been decrying The End is near about this, even though people have been alluding my stance to that. I don't want an increase in the creepy gamer population in the hobby and therefore do not want games around that attract creepy gamers.
Quote from: jeff37923;256443However, I'd bet that Tardy's doesn't have the "classic" porn (old issues of everything from Playboy to Juggs, to Hustler) in in the same room for everybody to see and ogle over as the comics. I'd bet he has those in a room in the back or behind the counter so that the underage kids can't get at them.
Yup. But I don't see anyone suggesting Maid or Poison, or whatever has to be carried on the same shelf as D&D. Or any where that children could easily access it. Common sense could easily be exercised here. Is someone suggesting differently?
QuoteActually, they could be the epitome of behavior and they would still drive away customers. It isn't mannerisms that people are finding offensive in this case, it is the content and context of what they are role-playing that is squicky.
Really? I think this is a pretty big stretch. I don't know, maybe you're right-but I just don't see it. But then none of the game stores in my area carry Maid, or games like it. Why would they?
Quote from: jeff37923;256452And I'd also bet that the kinds of player attracted to playing Poison'd or Maid is quite different from the kind of player attracted to playing Traveller or D&D.
Maybe I'm cynical, but I see both as just looking to have fun pretending to be something or someone else for a few hours. Freaks, and mentally imbalanced people are fucked up well before they hit the game, any game.
Quote from: CavScout;256485Depending on that "single criterion" you certainly could.
That sure is a tall order. I'd rather have more.
Quote from: jeff37923;256519To keep others like him away.
Quote from: jeff37923;256540Because it is my belief that if you allow creepy gamers into your games, then they will drive away the rest of the gamers who might have brought more than just creepiness to the game table.
I guess that could be true, but jeesh that seems like a pretty big stretch.I'd rather worry about more tangible things personally. But if this is what makes your group work, and you're having fun-then the more power to you!
QuoteAnd it isn't that I percieve Maid as a threat. I percieve Maid as an attractant of creepy gamers who I don't want to be associated with my hobby.
I see LARPing in the same light, but I just generally refrain from LARPing, and hanging with the douchebags who do.
Quote from: Serious Paul;256619That sure is a tall order. I'd rather have more.
You can't come up with a few single "single criterion" that would automatically disqualify someone in your eyes?
Quote from: Serious Paul;256619Really? I think this is a pretty big stretch. I don't know, maybe you're right-but I just don't see it.
Not a dare, mind you, but the way to find out would be to get a copy of
Maid and then some people together and play it in a neutral public setting. Watch how people react around the game.
Quote from: Serious Paul;256619Maybe I'm cynical, but I see both as just looking to have fun pretending to be something or someone else for a few hours. Freaks, and mentally imbalanced people are fucked up well before they hit the game, any game.
True, but what kind of gamer audience is each game designed to attract and how would you feel about gaming with that gamer type?
Quote from: StormBringer;256609Pundit used the online character creator and came up with that one.
A few examples:
.....
Stormbringer these are hardly examples of "
imagining all the ways an eleven year old in a transparent outfit can perform sexual acts,". And what's a death reaper ?
Regards,
David R
The people that really creep me out, honestly, in the gaming scene are the RPGA members that come to our con. They are actually relatively quite diverse and don't look all that nerdy. There is even a decent representation of women. But they are socially really bizarre. Can't make small talk, can't make eye contact, skulk around in groups and generally behave in a very unwelcoming closed way. They make me very uncomfortable.
Quote from: jeff37923;256618No, I'm afraid it is exactly as I am describing it. Books like Maid or The Book of Erotic Fantasy are not carried by stores because the store owner knows that they will not sell due precisely to the "moral outrage" that they will cause.That is why a store owner would not carry it.
Instead of debating the point, just ask your average FLGS owner like I did and digest the answer you get.
No need to debate it. I have owned a chain of game stores in the past. I regularly discuss buying habits (just talked with two today) with over 60 retailers. I am involved in several online private industry fora. No, I was not debating, just trying to share my experience.
Quote from: jeff37923;256618I don't think I've been decrying The End is near about this, even though people have been alluding my stance to that. I don't want an increase in the creepy gamer population in the hobby and therefore do not want games around that attract creepy gamers.
And to your credit (and I was more referring to Pundit's stance) you have said it is about your personal preference on who you game with. I have no issue with that stance if it is indeed what you are proposing. I find Punidt's stance a bit naive and highly paranoid but that is not new or isolated. Essentially, I don't have a beef with folks who find a game incompatible with their morals/play style/aesthetic. When it spreads to hate mongering and alramist foolishness, well, then I take exception. As I said earlier, better to be your own keeper than your brothers.
Bill
Quote from: David R;256629Stormbringer these are hardly examples of " imagining all the ways an eleven year old in a transparent outfit can perform sexual acts,". And what's a death reaper ?
Regards,
David R
I will grant that 'Lolita' may be misused over there in a similar manner as 'otaku' is misused over here, but as mentioned, the interpreters should have known the difference. And it comes up rather distressingly often in the random character generator. Additionally, the option for maid uniform colour can be selected rather than randomized.
QuoteUniform Color: transparent Hair Color: black Eye Color: blue Maid Types: Lolita & Heroine Special Qualities: Freckles, Angel/Devil, Brown Skin, Collar, Bad Reputation Favored Attribute: Affection Maid Power: Passionate Gaze Maid Weapon: Summoning Stress Explosion: Alcohol/Drugs
Your name is hh. You are 11 years old. You have blue eyes and black hair, and wear a transparent maid uniform. You are childlike and heroic; others describe you as young, single-minded and spirited.
You have a great deal of freckles. You are a being from a world beyond this mortal coil, charged with judging good and evil. Your skin is a beautiful, deep brown color. Your maid outfit includes a collar, like a dog's. You were involved in some very bad things in the past, making you a legend for all the wrong reasons.
In combat, you are able to summon some kind of special being to attack your enemies. When you are extremely upset, you drink alcohol or take drugs until you can't remember anymore. Due to your notable Affection, you have the ability Passionate Gaze. With just a glance, you can ingratiate yourself with the master, taking 1d6 Stress to gain 1d3 Favor.
QuoteUniform Color: transparent Hair Color: black Eye Color: blue Maid Types: Sexy & Pure Special Qualities: Overactive Imagination, Killed Your Lover, Betrayal, Chains, Raven Favored Attribute: Affection Maid Power: Passionate Gaze Maid Weapon: Stun Gun Stress Explosion: Rampage
Your name is hh. You are 11 years old. You have blue eyes and black hair, and wear a transparent maid uniform. You are sexy and pure; others describe you as pure, curvy and coquettish.
You frequently get caught up in your own imaginary world, getting lost in frequent daydreams and having trouble distinguishing fact from your own fiction. You had a lover once, but something terrible happened, and their death was by your hands; you've been afraid to fall in love again ever since. You were once deeply betrayed by a lover; you've been afraid to love again ever since. Your uniform has jangling chains attached to it. You are actually a raven, with black wings that can be displayed or hidden at will.
In combat, you keep a stun gun ready to attack enemies. When you are extremely upset, you use anything you can lay your hands on to run around destroying things around the mansion. Due to your notable Affection, you have the ability Passionate Gaze. With just a glance, you can ingratiate yourself with the master, taking 1d6 Stress to gain 1d3 Favor.
While these were created with the Dark option set, you would think that someone would put a few lines of code in to check the age that was entered and filter out things like 'You had a lover once...' for anything under 16 or 17. Sure, anyone using it can just set the age to 21 and then write down 11 on their printout or whatever.
But as mentioned before, that becomes a choice of the individual player, not a consequence of the normal use of the rules. Combine 'Likes them Young' with an 11 year old maid in a transparent uniform who has 'Passionate Gaze' and a dog collar. Already we are within the city limits of Creepyville. So, the 11 year old can gain Stress to obtain Favour. Aside from game mechanic terms, what does Stress represent? Riding a broomstick like a naughty little girl? Polishing the silver tea set? Perhaps it is the character's realization that no combination of random rolls should result in an 11 year old maid with a transparent outfit and wearing a dog collar working for a Master that 'Likes them Young' with an ability called 'Passionate Gaze', possibly learned from that previous 'lover' she had when she was eight.
It's not hard to see how 'Likes them Young' and no minimum age for the characters sends the Light Hearted Anime Express barrelling off the tracks right into Creepy As Fuck Swamp in short order.
Quote from: StormBringer11 year old maid
If I remember correctly, you have to fill the age window on the chargen, so playing 11 years old character is entirely your option... and, because age doesn't mean anything in this game you can allways change it.
Quote from: StormBringerAside from game mechanic terms, what does Stress represent?
It causes stress explosion. In this case doing alcohol/drugs.
Well this still does not fall into "
imagining all the ways an eleven year old can perform sex acts" terrain. No doubt the bolded parts of your post, displays a lot of innuendo, but sex acts ?
The main reason I asked was, if there were indeed descriptions of sex acts esp those performed by eleven years olds I would definitely feel the need to go over to storygames where I am a member (although I don't post there) and tell Andy K & Co, to get some help and yeah, that it would be better (IMO) if they were not a part of this hobby.
Also from your posting history, you don't seem like the type of poster who shoot his mouth of. Your original post made it seem that the system - charts make up a big part of it, if I'm not mistaken - was littered with sex acts.
Quote from: StormBringer;256637It's not hard to see how 'Likes them Young' and no minimum age for the characters sends the Light Hearted Anime Express barrelling off the tracks right into Creepy As Fuck Swamp in short order.
Well I question the need for a Dark option mode of play for what is essentially supposed to be a light hearted comic game.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David R;256639Well this still does not fall into "imagining all the ways an eleven year old can perform sex acts" terrain. No doubt the bolded parts of your post, displays a lot of innuendo, but sex acts ?
"... you had a lover once..."
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;256641"... you had a lover once..."
This is an example of a sex act ? Or didn't you read the rest of my post.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David R;256642This is an example of a sex act ? Or didn't you read the rest of my post.
You start as you mean to go on. You don't have things happen in character generation that can't happen in play. If your character has had lovers in the past, you'll expect them to have lovers in the future.
At 11 years old.
And of course there's the question of the child having had a sexual relationship in their early childhood, around 8 or so, and
having adult feelings about that. According to blokes like Mythusmage that's quite possible. We could ask him about it, but we chased him off. Shall we invite him back?
Come on, if you can bend over backwards that far enough to defend this nonsense, you ought to join the national gymnastic team.
It's vile, puerile shit.
Hentai. Pervert. That's what it's based on and inspired by. So said a reviewer who
liked it. That was a point
in its favour.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;256643You start as you mean to go on. You don't have things happen in character generation that can't happen in play. If your character has had lovers in the past, you'll expect them to have lovers in the future.
At 11 years old.
And of course there's the question of the child having had a sexual relationship in their early childhood, around 8 or so, and having adult feelings about that. According to blokes like Mythusmage that's quite possible. We could ask him about it, but we chased him off. Shall we invite him back?
Come on, if you can bend over backwards that far enough to defend this nonsense, you ought to join the national gymnastic team.
It's vile, puerile shit.
Hentai. Pervert. That's what it's based on and inspired by. So said a reviewer who liked it. That was a point in its favour.
So I take it that there's no examples of sex acts.
Or are you saying that Andy K & Co, purposely created/translated a game for pedophiles ?
You put "Mythusmage" and "defending this nonsense", in the same post when refering to me, after all I did was ask, for some clarification from Strombringer about comments he made about the game being discussed
and after my comments esp in my last post ? You know what kyle, go fuck yourself.
Regards,
David R
Kyle Aaron: Definition of "lover" (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/lover)... "One, who loves one another, especially sexual love"... especially=/=necessarily, so I thing it's OK.
And since you can determine character's age "as you wish" this is hardly a problem on the side of game. You can for example have 8 years old gangster in Shadowrun in you wish so.
Quote from: jeff37923;256618No, I'm afraid it is exactly as I am describing it. Books like Maid or The Book of Erotic Fantasy are not carried by stores because the store owner knows that they will not sell due precisely to the "moral outrage" that they will cause.That is why a store owner would not carry it.
Maybe in Knoxville TN, but where I live the reaction would range from "don't really care about moral outrage" to "hells yes!" Frankly, my FLGS carries stuff that makes Maid look like Pokemon (which FTR is one of the reasons I believe that Maid is meant to appeal in part to creepazoids). Dude, you need to venture outside the Bible Belt once in a blue moon...
KoOS
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256561Everyone discriminates. I discriminate, but I am also able to admit that my discrimination never makes me right. It's not a crime, but not being a crime doesn't make something right. Cheating on your girlfriend is wrong, but it's not a crime.
Unlike cheating on your girlfriend, discrimination is morally neutral. There are good and bad reasons to discriminate. Attaching an inherently negative value to discrimination is a product of the kind of morally vacant, everything-is-equally-valid Precious Snowflake Thought that ruins TBP.
KoOS
Quote from: Fritzs;256646Kyle Aaron: Definition of "lover" (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/lover)... "One, who loves one another, especially sexual love"... especially=/=necessarily, so I thing it's OK.
And since you can determine character's age "as you wish" this is hardly a problem on the side of game. You can for example have 8 years old gangster in Shadowrun in you wish so.
When you've had to begin with definition parsing, you've already lost. "Lover" implies a sexual relationship. You certainly wouldn't call people you love, like siblings or parents, "lovers".
CavScout: The point is, that in this game you can determine the age of your character as you wish and you can reroll as you wish, so if you've roll "lover" for your 8 years old maid, you can change her age or reroll the result. Anyway, the character generator in the game (not the one on in the link) determines age and name of your character after the rolls not before, so if you rolled "lover" you can choose suitable age for your character.
Congratulations to everyone on this thread for such a massive trainwreck without trains, railways and nothing but thin air. 422 post full of righteous fury, acussations of perversions, puritanism, mad ramblings, shit flinging, and assorted nonsense. Once more the Internet achieves the impossible: to create a nonexistent threat to a nonexistent entity like the hobby, the industry, or whatever the fuck you wanna call it, and argue a lot about the nonexistent consequences to everyone.
My special congratulations go, as usual, to the RPGPundit and the rest of the Shitehead Commando, always on the watch for a chance to build some Internet cred between the 4 monkeys that care about Internet RPG messageboards. Dude, you really should work for the Bush administration. You are a talent to discover.
As always happens, you all overestimate the relevance of Internet for gamers. Let me put it in few words:
No one gives a flying shit about you and your hobby, starting for the people who plays RPGs.
Most gamers out there don't attend cons, so they neither know nor care about what's going on at any con. Their gaming is not affected by that. Most gamers don't visit messageboards because they don't care about the "Internet discussion." We (the people who discuss shit in messageboards) don't exist for most gamers.
But the same thing happens when it comes to publishers: even when they are active part of Internet discussions, they create and design their products without paying any mind to shit said here. That runs true from WotC (did you really think that the discussion here or anywhere else had any significant weight on the 4e design?), to the last small-press guy out there. Do you really think anything said here, or at The Forge, or RPG.net changes shit? Talk about self-perceived importance, here. Pundit, do you really think that your stupid rants here an in your blog (specially your recycled rants) prevent someone from designing or playing any game that you rail against?
And of course, the people who won't play RPGs are not making any difference between D&D and Maid because for them both are just nerdy shit. For the average non-gaming person, a gamer is automatically into all kinds of nerdy shit. As soon as someone knows that I play RPGs, they assume that I like anime, for example. Which I hate and consider retarded by default. But they don't give a shit, and they are not investigating to know more.
The only purpose all this noise really serves is to provide fucknuggets with stupid online persona like the RPGPundit, Sett and the like to feel self-importance, like all their dickwaving and chest-beating and peeing all over the others matters a bit.
You are getting worried about a retarded game who will be bought by a hundred persons tops, played by less than the half of those persons, and that won't be a blip on the radar to 99% of the gamers who, to pay notice to that game should (a) take part in these retardation festivals of discussions or (b) attend to a con where this game is demoed. That's not happening. And of course, nobody outside gamers is going to even imagine the existence of such a stupid thing. In 3 months no one will remember this shite, except for the Shitehead Commando who will bring this from time to time to try to prove that they have scored some imaginary victory in their imaginary war. But I'm also sure that, when that moment comes, you all will have found another imaginary threat under your beds to be scared or indignant about.
Pundit, you are really Ron Edwards in disguise. There's no other possible explanation for your behaviour. You have done more for bringing that unknown games to the dim spotlight of Internet than anything the Forge could have done. Also, both of you are elitist pretentious snobs, manifest delusional ideas and try to build cults of followers around you. Though, I feel that the Edwards
identity's been more successful at that. You gotta work harder on that, Pundit.
Someone should write a timeline of the Swine Wars, including all the times Pundit was banned from sites for being a stupid troll, the schism when Sett tried to outpundit the Pundit and declared War on English and Coherent Thought, and all the stupidities and outrages. Maybe comparing all that fundamental historical events with the real outcomes of them (zero) would bring some perspective on the matter.
Pundit / Ron Edwards, please never stop making the Internet a crazy place.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;256641"... you had a lover once..."
I don't like the idea of the maid game, but in fairness that word might be a translation of the Japanese
koibito (恋人), which doesn't
necessarily imply sex to the same extent that the English word 'lover' does.
It often does imply sex, of course, but it might also be possible to describe an 8-year-old girl's 8-year-old sweetheart as her '
koibito'.
This is a big stretch, but it always pays to be careful with translations. Also, bear in mind that the English version has been translated by an amateur - he's working on an MA in translation, but that doesn't mean a lot.
Quote from: ImperatorSomeone should write a timeline of the Swine Wars, including all the times Pundit was banned from sites for being a stupid troll, the schism when Sett tried to outpundit the Pundit and declared War on English and Coherent Thought, and all the stupidities and outrages. Maybe comparing all that fundamental historical events with the real outcomes of them (zero) would bring some perspective on the matter.
That would be awesome reading... is anyone going to write it...? Noone...?
Time to kick this horse shit into Off Topic, surely?
(In answer to the question, "No, but some of the individuals involved appear to be.")
Ned
Quote from: noisms;256664I don't like the idea of the maid game, but in fairness that word might be a translation of the Japanese koibito (恋人), which doesn't necessarily imply sex to the same extent that the English word 'lover' does.
I didn't translate it, so I wouldn't know.
But that's the version we have. I don't really care what the original said, we're dealing with the version all of us here can read, the one in English. Far as I know, English is the native language of the guys who translated the thing, so they know what the word means in
our language. So there was obviously a certain context and feel they were aiming to get across.
Children with lovers in their past. And with all the talk of heartbreak and reactions to that heartbreak, children who have adult feelings about those lovers, who can reflect and so on. Which is exactly one argument of paedophiles, that children can and do understand what they're doing if they give their consent to sexual acts.
Sure, you could just write in your character's age and make her an adult, or ignore those rules. Likewise, you could take FATAL and play without the anal circumfrence rules, or at least the "infant" modifier to them. But probably it's easier just to bin the fucking thing.
Quote from: David ROr are you saying that Andy K & Co, purposely created/translated a game for pedophiles ?
As much as Vincent Baker purposely created a game where you kill children and molest their corpses, or you kill someone else so you can rape his victim instead of him.
That is, they're not really interested in attracting
actual paedophiles and murderers, but they want to have a nice comfortable experience sitting in their loungerooms imagining nasty shit with a bit of a giggle, and revel in being supershockedgeycool.
Quote from: David RYou put "Mythusmage" and "defending this nonsense", in the same post when refering to me, after all I did was ask, for some clarification from Strombringer about comments he made about the game being discussed and after my comments esp in my last post ? You know what kyle, go fuck yourself.
I wasn't implying anything about you. When have you known me to
imply anything? I just come out and say it.
I just don't understand why you're trying so hard to defend this vile puerile shit, shit you'd never let happen in your game group. Just because we condemn one game and the people getting their jollies from playing it does not mean we're going to slip down that slope into a police state.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;256667Children with lovers in their past. And with all the talk of heartbreak and reactions to that heartbreak, children who have adult feelings about those lovers, who can reflect and so on.
Out of curiosity, would it help if the book used the word "boyfriend" instead? Because then you'd have exactly the same situation as in all the shoujo manga out there, including
Sailor Moon.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;256667*snip*
I actually mostly agree with you; I was just playing devil's advocate really. I wouldn't want to defend Maid, but I think the situation is slightly more nuanced.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;256667As much as Vincent Baker purposely created a game where you kill children and molest their corpses, or you kill someone else so you can rape his victim instead of him.
That is, they're not really interested in attracting actual paedophiles and murderers, but they want to have a nice comfortable experience sitting in their loungerooms imagining nasty shit with a bit of a giggle, and revel in being supershockedgeycool.
Did Vincent actually purposely create this game* or did players create the play you described ? Because like I said earlier, the sin system is complex and I acknowledged that the setting/system is bleak. If anything all you can accuse Vincent of is revelling instead of condenming the juvenile behaviour in the actual play. Would you say the same thing about the
WW system and crew (or even
UA for that matter) if an example of play surfaced with the same kind of fucked up play ?
Oh really, not attracting pedophiles ? Then why the fuck are the Pundit and you so outraged. If all a game like this does is attract pretentious twats , why the outrage. You think the hobby is devoid of them at the moment ?
QuoteI wasn't implying anything about you. When have you known me to imply anything? I just come out and say it.
I just don't understand why you're trying so hard to defend this vile puerile shit, shit you'd never let happen in your game group. Just because we condemn one game and the people getting their jollies from playing it does not mean we're going to slip down that slope into a police state.
If you weren't implying anything, why mention someone like Mythusmage ? If you weren't implying anything why say I was defending the game when I asked Strombringer for clarification about his comments ?
And where was I defending this vile pure shit ? It goes back to what KoOS said about intellectual dishonesty. Don't ignore the fact that this game has some really dodgy elements at the same time don't make up shit that is not in the game.
When the whole
Poison'd AP nonsense first started, I sent out links of the discussion to some of my very conservative gamer friends. I mean conservative in the social sense and also in the games they play - only
D&D with some old school SF stuff. They don't even approve of
White Wolf games. The same goes for a game like
UA. I admit, I sent them the links hoping to cause a little
frisson.
You know what their collective response was ? A collective yawn of disinterest. You know why ? It seems over the years they had seen the same or worst kind of stuff happening in games that they like and play.
So you go ahead kyle, throwing about your venom - emo, misery, shockededgysupercool or whatever - and I'll just remember that any kind of reasobale discussion with you is impossible because of your perceptions of people who may actually like stuff from the Forge and storygames. Some of their games are very interesting some are lame, IMO.
And btw, I have played a few Forge games with a group who are nothing like your description of Forge gamers. I doubt I'm alone here. You talk about Forgers being insular in their gaming, maybe it's you who should open your eyes a little instead of fueling the Pundit's BS war.
Edit:
*A game of killing children and molesting corpses.
Regards,
David R
David R nails it, again.
Quote from: David R;256670You know what their collective response was ? A collective yawn of disinterest. You know why ? It seems over the years they had seen the same or worst kind of stuff happening in games that they like and play.
Quoted for truth.
QuoteSome of their games are very interesting some are lame, IMO.
Exactly. I like Sorcerer, Universalis, PtA and Dogs in the Vineyard. I don't give a shit about Poison'd, Grey Ranks or It Was a Mutual Decision, and think they are an utter waste of time, so probably I won't play them. Th same happens with the "mainstream" games, whatever the fuck they are.
QuoteAnd btw, I have played a few Forge games with a group who are nothing like your description of Forge gamers. I doubt I'm alone here.
No, you are not alone. The same group of sane, well-adjusted players I play with will take a CoC game as a DitV game. Most of them don't see any difference between them. Clue: because there is none. Sorry, Ron Edwards and V. Baker.
Quote from: Kyle AaronChildren with lovers in their past. And with all the talk of heartbreak and reactions to that heartbreak, children who have adult feelings about those lovers, who can reflect and so on. Which is exactly one argument of paedophiles, that children can and do understand what they're doing if they give their consent to sexual acts.
Sure, you could just write in your character's age and make her an adult, or ignore those rules. Likewise, you could take FATAL and play without the anal circumfrence rules, or at least the "infant" modifier to them. But probably it's easier just to bin the fucking thing.
Determining the age of character is last step in character generation and it's not generated by random roll... it's up to you, not up to some fucked up rule of the game. But you might be upset by the fact, that there is no rule, that would disallow you to create child character with centrain traits, but then you must feel the same wrath towards such trad games as GURPS or Shadowrun. Or you must be hypocrite.
Quote from: Imperator;256671No, you are not alone. The same group of sane, well-adjusted players I play with will take a CoC game as a DitV game. Most of them don't see any difference between them. Clue: because there is none. Sorry, Ron Edwards and V. Baker.
Yeah, this is exactly my experience. You phrase it better though.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: Fritzs;256646Kyle Aaron: Definition of "lover" (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/lover)... "One, who loves one another, especially sexual love"... especially=/=necessarily, so I thing it's OK.
You're not helping your case here. You've just pulled down a definition that states the
normal way to take the term is the way that it's been interpreted.
Quote from: RPGPundit;256558I would say its pretty freaking logical to figure that someone who is a fanatic of a game where you can play a 10 year old girl-maid wearing a transparent uniform (never mind all the other stuff) might not be the best choice for babysitting your 10 year old girl, REGARDLESS of any other qualifiers.
Then D&D is out. You can certainly play a 10 year old servant girl wearing whatever you want. Shadowrun is out; there's nothing that stops you from playing a 10 year old maid in see-through latex. Ultimately, it's about what the player chooses; Maid isn't
about playing sexually-active young girls, so far as I can tell, although various combinations of the rules can get you there if you try. Certainly, people have chosen to play this way, but those people made that choice; "10 year old whore" isn't a character class, so far as I know.
Of course, I'd love to tell you for certain, to read the game and thus be informed, unlike many of us right now, but my lack of desire to spend actual money on something so silly is proving detrimental.
Quote from: Age of Fable;256582Maybe - but surely the people responsible for translating it and putting out an English-language edition would've thought about how it was going to be received?
I can't speak for those people, although they've spoken for themselves elsewhere. Frankly, as far as I can tell, the translators though they were making a light-hearted anime comedy game, but also decided to include one of the expansions from the original game, which included these sex rules that have proven so controversial. Whether age and sexuality is dealt with in the translation or the original is unknown to me; if I ever manage to obtain a copy of the work, I'll have more information on which to base my opinions.
Quote from: StormBringer;256637While these were created with the Dark option set...
Then it's hardly a surprise that the results are, you know, dark. Although for what it's worth, that's about the lowest setting of dark I can conceive; it's so absurd as to be, even moreso than stuffing rubies into 10,000 eye sockets, "cartoony." Which, of course, is
exactly what it's supposed to be.
I would expand on Imperator's dead-on rant by suggesting that Maid also falls completely below the radar of actual child molestors as well. What the fuck are they going to do with a geeky roleplaying game when they've got actual pictures, videos and often the real thing? Depressing and disgusting thought, but basically true.
And you all disagree with my stance on human beings.
Caesar Slaad: That's amusing, the rest of my post, which proved, that you by no means have to play 10 years old maid was ignored. The game just happen to lack (as allmost every other game) rules, that would limit your options. As I kept saying for quite a few pages of this discussion, nearly every trad game allows you to play sexually active child by RAW if you want to.
Engine: In the case of D&D it's not true... you roll age of your character as part of character creation and because of the nature of said rolls your character can't be kid.
Quote from: walkerpAnd you all disagree with my stance on human beings.
It's offtopic, but I still disagree... humans are most complex and orderly structures we know and quite possibly most orderly in the entire universe. That makes them somehow more awesome, than rest of visible matter.
Quote from: Fritzs;256659CavScout: The point is, that in this game you can determine the age of your character as you wish and you can reroll as you wish, so if you've roll "lover" for your 8 years old maid, you can change her age or reroll the result. Anyway, the character generator in the game (not the one on in the link) determines age and name of your character after the rolls not before, so if you rolled "lover" you can choose suitable age for your character.
What does "age" have to do with the bullshit attempt to redefine how the word "lover" is used?
Why wasn't your "point" originally about just adjusting the age if "lover" came up instead of a dumb-assed attempted to tell everyone that "lover" just meant you "loved" someone and was not sexual?
Quote from: walkerp;256701I would expand on Imperator's dead-on rant by suggesting that Maid also falls completely below the radar of actual child molestors as well. What the fuck are they going to do with a geeky roleplaying game when they've got actual pictures, videos and often the real thing?
Option 1: Stay at home and peacefully tug sausage while looking at porn collection.
Option 2: Fly to Cambodia and spend erotic nights with little undernourished bodies.
Option 3: Gather several other perverts, overweight and undersocialised, and collectively imagine anime maids rubbing brooms on their crotches.
Tough, very tough....
CavScout: OK, so let's say you want to play for whatever reason 8 years old character, while you don't want to go into "sexualy active child" area... so in that case you can read the "lover" as "the significant other" or "child love interest" or "boyfriend" or "platonic love" or whatever you find apropriate...
If it was called "fuck buddy" instead of "lover" you centrainly would not be read it like that.
Quote from: Fritzs;256711CavScout: OK, so let's say you want to play for whatever reason 8 years old character, while you don't want to go into "sexualy active child" area... so in that case you can read the "lover" as "the significant other" or "child love interest" or "boyfriend" or "platonic love" or whatever you find apropriate...
If it was called "fuck buddy" instead of "lover" you centrainly would not be read it like that.
"Lover" means somethig and it's not what your trying to sell here in this thread. At best it was a poor choice of the author/translator or at worst it was intentional and fits with the theme of the game itself.
Quote from: walkerp;256701I would expand on Imperator's dead-on rant by suggesting that Maid also falls completely below the radar of actual child molestors as well. What the fuck are they going to do with a geeky roleplaying game when they've got actual pictures, videos and often the real thing? Depressing and disgusting thought, but basically true.
And you all disagree with my stance on human beings.
Well, at least in the UK, it's illegal to possess child pornography and you can be jailed for it. And that isn't an empty threat; it happens quite often.
On the other hand, you could get away with owning Maid. It's not a stretch to imagine people who wouldn't want to risk having actual pictures of child sexual abuse getting into the Maid game, so they can enjoy their twisted fantasies without fear of the law.
I'm not accusing the translators of this, of course, or the vast majority of the players. They're just terribly naive people.
CavScout: Well, languages are tought stuff, because their rules aren't that set, but one could argue, that noun "lover" comes from verb "to love" and "to love" doesn't exactly mean "to copulate" and I think, that you can say, that someone is cactus lover without him being fucking these plants.
Anyway, you still haven't answered my question, if the problem with this game is the fact, that it doesn't have rule, that would set minimal age you can choose for your character...?
Quote from: Fritzs;256703Engine: In the case of D&D it's not true... you roll age of your character as part of character creation and because of the nature of said rolls your character can't be kid.
Really? I confess I'm not a rules-lawyer, but I never remember rolling my age in 3.5e.
Quote from: noismsOn the other hand, you could get away with owning Maid. It's not a stretch to imagine people who wouldn't want to risk having actual pictures of child sexual abuse getting into the Maid game, so they can enjoy their twisted fantasies without fear of the law.
The question is, if enjoying these twisted fantasies in the form of RPG (not necessary Maid) is bad or not... All I can say it's better than raping kids and I think you should be allowed to have whatever sick and twisted fasntasies you want and even share them with your friends, as long as you don't fulfil them.
Quote from: noisms;256715It's not a stretch to imagine people who wouldn't want to risk having actual pictures of child sexual abuse getting into the Maid game, so they can enjoy their twisted fantasies without fear of the law.
This isn't impossible, of course, but I'm curious what the relative commonality of this might be. I mean, how many copies of Maid have been sold, and how many of them have been sold to creeps?
Of course, the Streisand Effect comes into play here: creeps are much more likely to play the game with everyone running around screaming, "Creeps will love this game!" But I still don't think we're talking about a particularly large number of people here, certainly not enough to wreck the hobby of roleplaying!
Does
anyone have any actual
data regarding the game and its players? Yes, we've heard the apocrypha, the famous game reports - which are famous because they're creepy; there are a much larger number of game reports which are not - and we've theorized about the rules [since apparently no one seems to have actually read the book], but does anyone have anything even remotely like objective data about the game and its players?
Engine: If I remember this correctly every class/race combination have it's starting age roll. You don't need to use them, but they are there.
Quote from: Fritzs;256717CavScout: Well, languages are tought stuff, because their rules aren't that set, but one could argue, that noun "lover" comes from verb "to love" and "to love" doesn't exactly mean "to copulate" and I think, that you can say, that someone is cactus lover without him being fucking these plants.
Sure, one could argue the meaning of "lover", as it is used in the case, but then they are just being a disingenuous douche bag. You may love your parents and you may love you siblings yet you would not describe yourself or them as your lovers.
That you continue to fight the obvious meaning of "lover", in this context, is very telling
QuoteAnyway, you still haven't answered my question, if the problem with this game is the fact, that it doesn't have rule, that would set minimal age you can choose for your character...?
This is simply a bullshit argument (like the definition parsing) that you are trying to make. The issue isn't does a game have an age limit but what age is it encouraging.
That's why attempts to insinuate GURPS and Shadowrun are "equal" if they don't forbid underage characters with deviant abilities/history or whatever. The issue is what is a game encouraging not what could one do with a game.
Quote from: Engine;256721This isn't impossible, of course, but I'm curious what the relative commonality of this might be.
Oh, extremely uncommon in relative terms. But that doesn't make it acceptable, I don't think.
Quote from: Fritzs;256723Engine: If I remember this correctly every class/race combination have it's starting age roll. You don't need to use them, but they are there.
You know, now that you mention it, I do recall a table with that in it. My bad.
Quote from: noisms;256729Oh, extremely uncommon in relative terms. But that doesn't make it acceptable, I don't think.
I suppose that depends on the "it." Does it make the
game acceptable, if creepy play is extremely uncommon? I mean, surely there are a fair number of Shadowrun players who murder their way through every adventure, who torture people for information, who even rape to achieve their objectives. It's a game about professional criminals, and in my experience, such criminals tend not to be particularly tender; certainly the people fantasizing about being a Pro are not. Surely D&D has a fair number of players who don't draw the distinction between "I kill only evil things" and "I kill things." Surely the books which provide rules for playing evil characters provide the opportunity for human sacrifice and other distasteful pursuits. I find it difficult to blame the game for its players, although I think many people have made excellent points about being careful about the rules you put in, lest they be abused. [Shadowrun, for instance, specifically forbids players from using blood magic...although nothing stops them from doing so. It also strongly suggests, over and over, that non-lethal attacks are superior to lethal ones, and in fact it makes many non-lethal solutions more effective than the lethal ones; Shadowrun was written in the lee of the "D&D makes you a Satanist" controversy, so they were extra-careful.]
But maybe that's not the "it" you meant. Maybe you mean the creepy play itself. Now, we're all definitely divided on that issue: some people think even fantasy should be limited to the morality of the real world, while others do not. I think there are strong arguments for each, although only one side has really convinced me.
Ultimately - and who didn't see me eventually saying something like this - I think the issue is a complex one, needing lots of information and evidence and judgment, and deserves more than a kneejerk reaction out of ignorance, the sort of, "Maid players are sick assholes" reaction lots of people [not you, noisms] have provided. I really, really think it's important to read the game, particularly before condemning the game itself, as opposed to a distinct minority of its players - if indeed a minority they are; I have no way of knowing. Which is, sort of, the point.
Quote from: CavScoutThe issue is what is a game encouraging not what could one do with a game.
Where does that game say, that you should for maximal enjoyment play twisted sexualy active child?
Quote from: Fritzs;256735Where does that game say, that you should for maximal enjoyment play twisted sexualy active child?
What game? I am not arguing about any specific game. I am arguing against your pathetic attempts to redefine "lover".
Imperator pretty much summed up my feelings. This is a nonissue. So off to discuss something else!
CavScout: OK, lover=somebody you have sex with... if it makes you so happy, I can live with that definition of "lover"... however you still haven't proven that Maid is particulary sick game becuase you can reroll or set different age. Or undersand something slightly different under "lover"...
Quote from: King of Old School;256650Maybe in Knoxville TN, but where I live the reaction would range from "don't really care about moral outrage" to "hells yes!" Frankly, my FLGS carries stuff that makes Maid look like Pokemon (which FTR is one of the reasons I believe that Maid is meant to appeal in part to creepazoids). Dude, you need to venture outside the Bible Belt once in a blue moon...
KoOS
Considering that there is a feeling of creepiness about
Maid from all corners of the globe, you're attempt at marginalizing this opinion (which includes your own) by alluding geographic location is made of fail.
Here's a question, who here reading this doesn't think that Maid will attract creepy gamers?
Because it seems that the overwhelming majority think that Maid will attract creepy gamers. Our debate seems to be about what we feel should be done about it.
Quote from: jeff37923;256751Considering that there is a feeling of creepiness about Maid from all corners of the globe, you're attempt at marginalizing this opinion (which includes your own) by alluding geographic location is made of fail.
The whole thread is made of fail.
It has people honestly arguing that you shouldn't discriminate against people who get off on kiddy-porn because that's just one aspect of their personality.
It has people who claim that a game book that includes an example in the rule book of an 11 year old getting sodomized with a broom stick is somehow good, clean fun.
It has people who claim that words like "lolita" and "lover" aren't intended to taken with a sexual context.
It has people who don't understand why you wouldn't want to be associated with pedophiles in your hobby.
It has people who claim that it is hypocritical to express disgust at a fictional representation of something unless you are actively working against that same thing in real life.
And best of all, it has people honestly claiming that if you find the sexualization of pubescent or even pre-pubescent girls disgusting and perverted then somehow you are exactly the same as Jerry Fallwell.
Why did we even bother to chase off that one guy? Apparently all kinds of people share his views. Perhaps we should put up a poll to see how many people here support NAMBLA?
Quote from: Fritzs;256638If I remember correctly, you have to fill the age window on the chargen, so playing 11 years old character is entirely your option... and, because age doesn't mean anything in this game you can allways change it.
You say that again, but somehow we all know that there will be FAR more people playing under-18 maids than, say, over-40 maids.
RPGPundit
Quote from: David R;256639Well this still does not fall into "imagining all the ways an eleven year old can perform sex acts" terrain. No doubt the bolded parts of your post, displays a lot of innuendo, but sex acts ?
Its only a matter of time. I guess the 10-year-old-with-broomstick incident and the dead-cabin-boy-being-neckraped incident wasn't quite enough for you?
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;256762Its only a matter of time. I guess the 10-year-old-with-broomstick incident and the dead-cabin-boy-being-neckraped incident wasn't quite enough for you?
RPGPundit
I asked Stormbringer if there were sex acts mentioned in the rules like he suggested.(And of course the neck raping is from the
Poison'd AP) Now why don't you take your BS about the destruction of the hobby and peddle it to the believers.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: Engine;256683Then D&D is out. You can certainly play a 10 year old servant girl wearing whatever you want. Shadowrun is out; there's nothing that stops you from playing a 10 year old maid in see-through latex.
Actually, technically, most versions of D&D have players roll for their character's age, and there's no way to be a 10 year old, but I realize that wasn't your point.
My response to your actual point is that the THEMATIC of the game does not include any kind of genre elements that would make it thought to be "normal" to play a 10 year old maid in Shadowrun or D&D. It is however "normal" in the genre of Maid to play a 10 year old maid, apparently. Its EVEN INCLUDED IN A MOTHERFUCKING EXAMPLE OF PLAY. You could say it is all but ENCOURAGED.
So the argument about this that its just like any other game falls utterly motherfucking flat to anyone who isn't making a gargantuan monumental effort to try to deny the common sense that anyone else could see.
RPGPundit
Quote from: David R;256764I asked Stormbringer if there were sex acts mentioned in the rules like he suggested.(And of course the neck raping is from the Poison'd AP) Now why don't you take your BS about the destruction of the hobby and peddle it to the believers.
Regards,
David R
But there is objectionable material in the book itself. Here's what Jong quoted on Pundit's blog:
QuoteBecause in the book, they set up the child character as being 10, and
wearing a transparent uniform. They set up the other character as 26,
and having the 'Likes them young" trait.
After the 10 year old starts riding the broom there's a section that
reads: "As for what's going on here, we'll leave it to the reader's
imagination." and a few sentences later: "The events of the next two
minutes of gameplay should not be printed here..."
Does that really sound innocent to you?
Quote from: walkerp;256701I would expand on Imperator's dead-on rant by suggesting that Maid also falls completely below the radar of actual child molestors as well. What the fuck are they going to do with a geeky roleplaying game when they've got actual pictures, videos and often the real thing? Depressing and disgusting thought, but basically true.
And you all disagree with my stance on human beings.
Why do modern furry-fans love all those drawings of underage furs having sex?
There is a spectrum of deviant sex just like any other kind of sex; probably a lot of furries wouldn't ever actually do anything to a real kid. But they wank off to images of cheetah-girls being raped or whatever. And of course, what's most important to them is that they are "a community", that there's a place where their unrestricted impulses, even the most crapulent of those, are embraced and "accepted" by their fellows.
That's where the Forge games are leading us to.
RPGPundit
Quote from: jgants;256767But there is objectionable material in the book itself. Here's what Jong quoted on Pundit's blog:
Does that really sound innocent to you?
jgants I never once said there was no objectionable material in
Maid. Look through all my post here.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: Fritzs;256749CavScout: OK, lover=somebody you have sex with... if it makes you so happy, I can live with that definition of "lover"... however you still haven't proven that Maid is particulary sick game becuase you can reroll or set different age. Or undersand something slightly different under "lover"...
Imagine if I was trying to "prove"
Maid RPG was a "particularly sick game". What I was proving was some of the defenses raised were rather lame, pathetic attempts.
Quote from: noisms;256715I'm not accusing the translators of this, of course, or the vast majority of the players. They're just terribly naive people.
There's a difference between being naive, and being an idiot. They're Idiots. They don't give a fuck who else gets off on this game, all they care about is people noticing how "edgy" they are, and how they aren't "ruled" by the "unwashed masses"' ideas of "conformity". Because, you see, they're big rebels.
They're just like the Beatniks. One of the Forgers said so: agreeing with Ron Edwards is EXACTLY like being Jack Kerouac! :rolleyes:
Its not that they didn't imagine that Lawncrapper child-rape-hentai fans would REALLY be into this stuff (instead of pretending to be into this stuff to somehow score pseudo-artiste cool-edgy hipster points), its that they just didn't give a fuck about the consequences to the hobby, because they don't actually care about this hobby very much.
RPGPundit
Quote from: jgants;256759It has people honestly arguing that you shouldn't discriminate against people who get off on kiddy-porn because that's just one aspect of their personality.
Really? Which people would those be?
Quote from: jgants;256759It has people who claim that a game book that includes an example in the rule book of an 11 year old getting sodomized with a broom stick is somehow good, clean fun.
Now, see, this I find interesting. Where can one find that in the game book? I was under the impression - and I'm no expert! - that this was a game report, not an example in the book. If it's in the book - even from the portion translated from the sex-filled expansion - that changes some things.
Quote from: jgants;256759It has people who don't understand why you wouldn't want to be associated with pedophiles in your hobby.
I don't think anyone's saying that, either: people
understand, they simply disagree that it's going to happen enough to matter.
Quote from: jgants;256759It has people who claim that it is hypocritical to express disgust at a fictional representation of something unless you are actively working against that same thing in real life.
Did I use the term "hypocritical?" Really? Seems kind of strong to me. I think I'd go with, "seems like a good idea."
Your synthesis is very, very poor. Actually, it reads like a CavScout recap.
Quote from: Engine;256774Now, see, this I find interesting. Where can one find that in the game book? I was under the impression - and I'm no expert! - that this was a game report, not an example in the book. If it's in the book - even from the portion translated from the sex-filled expansion - that changes some things.
I don't think it was actual sodomizing but apparently (and somebody correct me if I'm wrong) it was an example of play from the book that Andy decided to remove. It's this kind of stupid shit that makes the Storygames crowd targets and rightly so IMO.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: RPGPunditYou say that again, but somehow we all know that there will be FAR more people playing under-18 maids than, say, over-40 maids
Yeah... what's the problem with that?
Quote from: RPGPunditThat's where the Forge games are leading us to.
That game wasn't produced by your nemesis. It's hard to imagine anyone faping to stuff presented in... let's say Shab-al-hiri Roach?
Quote from: RPGPundit;256766Actually, technically, most versions of D&D have players roll for their character's age, and there's no way to be a 10 year old, but I realize that wasn't your point.
Yeah, my bad on that one.
Quote from: RPGPundit;256766So the argument about this that its just like any other game falls utterly motherfucking flat to anyone who isn't making a gargantuan monumental effort to try to deny the common sense that anyone else could see.
Well, I'll tell you, Pundit, I just don't like kneejerk reactionism, and while a lot of the defenses of the book have been bullshit, so have a lot of the attacks. I should have kept my mouth shut, because I hadn't read the books, but I foolishly waded in since nearly no one else had, either. Mea culpa.
I still don't think Maid is made of evil, or that all its players are bad. There does seem to be some highly adult content, and even some which contains sexualization of children. I maintain my view that what one does in fantasy isn't judgeable by the same standards as what you do in reality, but I must confess there are some elements of Maid which - judged by the standard of reality - are certainly quite questionable.
Quote from: jgants;256767Does that really sound innocent to you?
No, it does not. It's not explicit, but that's not much of a saving grace. Certainly, it's evidence that the game includes material that would be considered inappropriate on a number of levels. While I don't personally find it objectionable - again, I'm not prepared to get upset about fantasy - I certainly agree that such material is found in the books, and any point I've made which rests on it not being in the books is invalidated.
Quote from: David R;256775I don't think it was actual sodomizing but apparently (and somebody correct me if I'm wrong) it was an example of play from the book that Andy decided to remove.
I really need to read this book if I'm going to comment on it. [So do we all!] So this objectionable material
isn't in the English version of the game? Lord, I'm so confused.
Quote from: David R;256770jgants I never once said there was no objectionable material in Maid. Look through all my post here.
Regards,
David R
Ok, so again, answer the fucking question: are you ok with the broom incident as described in the book? Yes or no?
RPGPundit
Quote from: Engine;256779I really need to read this book if I'm going to comment on it. [So do we all!] So this objectionable material isn't in the English version of the game? Lord, I'm so confused.
My understanding is that it is in the current version of the English translation, but Andy said something about removing it for a future reprint.
Quote from: Fritzs;256776Yeah... what's the problem with that?
That it pretty much makes your "age doesn't matter" argument shown for the load of bullshit that it is. This is not the game of playing "Mrs.Miggins, the elderly british maid", even though in theory you could play that, this is the game of playing sexy hentai japanese schoolgirl-maids.
QuoteThat game wasn't produced by your nemesis. It's hard to imagine anyone faping to stuff presented in... let's say Shab-al-hiri Roach?
No, only fapping intellectually, which is even more pathetic.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;256780Ok, so again, answer the fucking question: are you ok with the broom incident as described in the book? Yes or no?
Well of course I'm not comfortable with it (as I was appalled by the
Poison'd AP and said so on the tBP thread), you idiot. Didn't you read my reply to Engine ? Or is this more of the selective reading that's part & parcel of your dumb imaginary war.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: RPGPundit;256367Are you seriously claiming mexicans are all socially retarded sexual deviants??
You are one fucked up individual.
RPGPundit
Walkerp has publicly stated his desire to
exterminate the entire human race. That pretty much sums it up.
Quote from: David R;256775I don't think it was actual sodomizing but apparently (and somebody correct me if I'm wrong) it was an example of play from the book that Andy decided to remove.
It's from an actual play report included in one of the original supplements, integrated into the English translation. As quoted in another thread, the incident went like... hmm... this:
"Rie: You're not very good at cleaning, are you? You really have to learn, right? (So saying, she instructs Kana incorrectly. Cunning result of 24).
Kana: L-like this...? (She poses like a witch riding a broom. Rie is teaching her how to clean with the mop between her legs. Since the player knows she can't win, Kana accepts this). Um... Uh... L-like this? (As for what's going on here, we'll leave it to the reader's imagination)."
Quote from: Engine;256779I really need to read this book if I'm going to comment on it. [So do we all!] So this objectionable material isn't in the English version of the game? Lord, I'm so confused.
No, David is either wrong or he's lying. It IS in the english version of the book. Andy has claimed that he'll be removing it from "future versions"; now that he's gotten the attention he hoped it would generate and looks edgy enough.
RPGPundit
Quote from: David R;256783Well of course I'm not comfortable with it, you idiot. Didn't you read my reply to Engine ? Or is this more of the selective reading that's part & parcel of your dumb imaginary war.
Regards,
David R
Then why are you wasting time trying to defend it?
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;256787Then why are you wasting time trying to defend it?
Where the hell was I defending it ? Again, did you not read my reply to kyle ?
Regards,
David R
Quote from: RPGPundit;256786No, David is either wrong or he's lying. It IS in the english version of the book. Andy has claimed that he'll be removing it from "future versions"; now that he's gotten the attention he hoped it would generate and looks edgy enough.
GrimGent has given the source of this (which I think seems close to what I said). I don't lie (that's why I asked someone who knows more about it to correct me if I'm wrong) Lying is more your game.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: RPGPundit;256769That's where the Forge games are leading us to.
Dude, you are delirious. You think that something as unimportant as the Forge is leading the Forge somewhere. Are the Forge games magically controlling your stupid brain?
Not even D&D has the influence to lead the hobby nowhere. The hobby cannot be lead, you smouldering idiot.
For fuck's sake. I'm out of this shithole of a thread.
Quote from: jeff37923;256751Considering that there is a feeling of creepiness about Maid from all corners of the globe, you're attempt at marginalizing this opinion (which includes your own) by alluding geographic location is made of fail.
I'm not marginalizing any opinion, I'm disputing your claim that "moral outrage" will keep stores from carrying Maid, which you made here:
Quote from: jeff37923No, I'm afraid it is exactly as I am describing it. Books like Maid or The Book of Erotic Fantasy are not carried by stores because the store owner knows that they will not sell due precisely to the "moral outrage" that they will cause.That is why a store owner would not carry it.
Instead of debating the point, just ask your average FLGS owner like I did and digest the answer you get.
I am pointing out that your experience is far from universal on this point. Why would stores which carry the overtly squicky anime/manga which inspired Maid refuse to carry the RPG itself?
KoOS
I hadn't realized how much this game screamed pedophelia. I got the impression that subject was something that would be added by the players.
Quote from: King of Old School;256654Unlike cheating on your girlfriend, discrimination is morally neutral. There are good and bad reasons to discriminate. Attaching an inherently negative value to discrimination is a product of the kind of morally vacant, everything-is-equally-valid Precious Snowflake Thought that ruins TBP.
KoOS
No, not quite. Precious little snowflake shit happens not because of a failure to discriminate, but rather because parents are too stupid to understand what discrimination is. They think because their kid needs to be in a lower math class that it's discrimination which goes against the very definition of the word.
Discrimination is when you judge people as a group (based most often on race or religion) rather than their own individual merits. So keeping all Maid RPG players out of the hobby would be discrimination because some of those people probably just think the game is funny, and don't actually RP any sex acts.
The creepy pervs have a right to their own game. They have a right to play it at their own homes. I have no right to stop them. Keeping them out of the hobby is discrimination. That's all I was saying. Now if the players of this stupid game do their own thing at their own home it's cool. Doesn't hurt me one bit.
If however they are actually pedophiles in real life then amazingly enough they deserve to be arrested, kicked in the teeth, or both even.
Judge people on their own merits.
Quote from: jeff37923;256756Here's a question, who here reading this doesn't think that Maid will attract creepy gamers?
Depends what you mean by "attract." If you mean "will it bring in creeps who didn't previously play RPGs" then no, I don't (at least, not to any significant degree). It's just not that high-profile to warrant such a concern.
If you mean "will it be played by preexisting gamers with creepy predilections" then yes (although I don't believe that these will necessarily be the majority of people who play Maid by any means). The 'net is replete with such creepazoids, so arguments against their existence are pretty stupid IMO.
KoOS
Quote from: King of Old School;256798I am pointing out that your experience is far from universal on this point. Why would stores which carry the overtly squicky anime/manga which inspired Maid refuse to carry the RPG itself?
KoOS
So, a store that already sells to creepy gamers will not be bothered by carrying a product that appeals to creepy gamers, which is part of their target market. I can see the logic of that. I stand corrected.
Quote from: King of Old School;256487Okay, for the record: Maid isn't "about" 10yo girls in transparent maid uniforms; that is merely an isolated example of play that will (according to the translators) be removed from future editions of the game.
Are they still selling the current edition, or have they recalled it and apologized for it?
Quote from: King of Old School;256487Okay, for the record: Maid isn't "about" 10yo girls in transparent maid uniforms; that is merely an isolated example of play that will (according to the translators) be removed from future editions of the game. The vast, vast majority of the game's actual text contains nothing so perverse.
Aren't examples of play, included in a rule book, intended to show how the game is intended to be played? It would seem odd to include examples of "how not to play" in a game book.
Quote from: JongWK;256815Are they still selling the current edition, or have they recalled it and apologized for it?
Given their lack of actual remorse (more like "yeah, we can see why some people might not like that part so we'll cut it from the next printing") I wouldn't hold out for an apology nor a recall. I expect they'll just sell through the current print and change it next time.
KoOS
Quote from: Engine;256777I maintain my view that what one does in fantasy isn't judgeable by the same standards as what you do in reality, but I must confess there are some elements of Maid which - judged by the standard of reality - are certainly quite questionable.
Except nobody's saying that the standards should be the same. Where we disagree is your assertion that fantasy cannot be judged at all. IMO that's patently absurd. By your logic, I have no grounds for criticism if you fantasize about diddling preteens or lynching black folks or working as a concentration camp guard molesting internees* 'cause, hey, it's all just
fantasy.
Well, fuck that noise.
Nobody has said that people who fantasize about these things should be held to the same standards as people who actually do these things, and you're misrepresenting the truth to claim such. We aren't claiming the right to send people to jail for thoughtcrime. OTOH, we are claiming the right to say "hey, your douchebag desires make you a douchebag, douchebag!" If you choose not to participate, that's your prerogative but don't pretend that we're the Inquisition and you're some kind of Champion of Freedom.
KoOS
* Not Godwin, this one is from real life. Look up "Max Mosley" if you don't know what I'm talking about.
Quote from: CavScout;256816Aren't examples of play, included in a rule book, intended to show how the game is intended to be played? It would seem odd to include examples of "how not to play" in a game book.
That's a pretty torturous leap of logic. You must be one hell of a gymnast.
Examples of play demonstrate how a game
can be played, not how a game
must be played. Surely even you're not too thick to understand the distinction, yes?
KoOS
Quote from: Fritzs;256646Kyle Aaron: Definition of "lover" (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/lover)... "One, who loves one another, especially sexual love"... especially=/=necessarily, so I thing it's OK.
(snip)
You can for example have 8 years old gangster in Shadowrun in you wish so.
Context, you moron, context.
Quote from: King of Old School;256820Given their lack of actual remorse (more like "yeah, we can see why some people might not like that part so we'll cut it from the next printing") I wouldn't hold out for an apology nor a recall. I expect they'll just sell through the current print and change it next time.
So they don't mind making money out of it, then.
Quote from: David R;256764I asked Stormbringer if there were sex acts mentioned in the rules like he suggested.(And of course the neck raping is from the Poison'd AP) Now why don't you take your BS about the destruction of the hobby and peddle it to the believers.
Regards,
David R
I can only refer you to the rules snippet JongWK posted regarding that. Certainly, the character generation part is a landmine all its own. As I mentioned, whether or not the Dark option is selected, there should certainly be a filter for certain traits if the age is less than 16 or whatever. To be on the safe side, I would have programmed in 18 for the minimum age to generate the adult portions of the character. If nothing else, that would help deflect a majority of the criticisms. I think Lolicons still bend a bit to the icky end of the spectrum, but consenting adults and all that.
That said, I don't really buy that a blip on the radar like this is going to cause lasting harm to the hobby. However, avalanches do start with a pebble or two. While
Maid will likely be forgotten six months after we stop talking about it, in the interim, someone may get the impression that this kind of thing sells, and next we will have
Rough Nights in Vegas or
Zimbabwe Re-location Camp where
they don't direct anyone to play 13yr old runaways, but there is that section of the character generation chapter on various reasons you ran away from home at 13.
Fast track to hell? No, certainly Maid isn't the end of the hobby. It could represent starting the car for the Sunday drive to the outskirts of hell, and as I have mentioned, I would rather not have more or less innocent bystanders listening in on 11yr olds Passionately Gazing at their Master in their transparent maid uniform and dog collar. Back in the 80s, it was all hype and hysteria. This time around, its not hard to see the connection most people would form with RPGs and pedophile-like behaviour. As mentioned elsewhere on the thread, there are no rape tables in D&D, no molestation xp in Shadowrun, no 'Likes them Young' in Traveller. You can easily point out that an individual group is acting like sick fucks, and the rules they made up are not indicitive of general play. Maid and Poison'd, on the other hand, have the sort of thing most people would consider very, very suspect right in the character generation part, and the section JongWK posted from Maid as an example of play.
All in all, Maid and Poison'd are not the kind of games I would want people to associate with RPGs. I will not hesitate to inform people that these are very fringe games that are generally decried for their subject matter by the general gaming populace.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256799Discrimination is when you judge people as a group (based most often on race or religion) rather than their own individual merits.
The thing is, sometimes membership of a group confers certain merits by definition. "Gamer who plays Maid" doesn't automatically make you a creep; "furry" does, IMO.
KoOS
Quote from: Fritzs;256672Determining the age of character is last step in character generation and it's not generated by random roll... it's up to you, not up to some fucked up rule of the game.
So it was up to the game designers and translators to include the example about the lolita?
Thank you for conceding the whole point.
Quote from: King of Old School;256822Except nobody's saying that the standards should be the same.
Well, I think some people are, but you're clearly not, which is most excellent.
Quote from: King of Old School;256822Where we disagree is your assertion that fantasy cannot be judged at all.
If that's the impression I've given, I apologize. I've said a lot of things about the difference between reality and fantasy in this thread, and some of them probably contradict each other. I
do think you have the right to object to people's fantasies; that's freedom of expression. I
don't think we ought to legally prosecute people for their thoughts, but neither do you.
You have the right to think someone is a douchebag based on their fantasies, or their mental illnesses. Hey, I think you have the right to think someone's a douchebag based on their race; I find protection of thought and expression very important for everyone, even intolerant people. But just as you're free to think they're a douchebag, they're free to think little boys are pretty. Neither of you likes what the other one thinks; both of you are free to disagree and to dislike each other.
Now, that means that
I am free to think
you're a douchebag for thinking things I don't, and you get it in return. And at the end of the day, everyone who disagrees thinks each other are douchebags...and then where the fuck are we? So for my part, I try to be the guy who
doesn't judge, and who encourages tolerance...but please don't think that encouragement is
requirement. It's still just something I think people should do, and I'm not making you do it any more than you want to make people not play Maid. Even the intolerant have the same right to their opinion as the tolerant, and if I've given the impression I think you're evil [the Inquisition] and I'm awesome [Champion of Freedom], it was most certainly not intentional, and is most certainly not reflected by my own thoughts.
Quote from: King of Old School;256822OTOH, we are claiming the right to say "hey, your douchebag desires make you a douchebag, douchebag!"
You have that right, and you are also right to call douchebaggery on people with douchebag desires.
However, did you miss the part earlier in this discussion where someone said they wanted to keep "creepy gamers" out of gaming altogether? That's the part that is wrong. That is the comment which sparked this argument.
Quote from: JongWK;256827So they don't mind making money out of it, then.
??? Well, obviously. What are you getting at?
KoOS
Quote from: Engine;256734[Shadowrun, for instance, specifically forbids players from using blood magic...although nothing stops them from doing so. It also strongly suggests, over and over, that non-lethal attacks are superior to lethal ones, and in fact it makes many non-lethal solutions more effective than the lethal ones; Shadowrun was written in the lee of the "D&D makes you a Satanist" controversy, so they were extra-careful.]
Did you read
Loose Alliances and its warning about Fascism?
Quote from: StormBringer;256828Back in the 80s, it was all hype and hysteria.
Like this thread?
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256835However, did you miss the part earlier in this discussion where someone said they wanted to keep "creepy gamers" out of gaming altogether? That's the part that is wrong. That is the comment which sparked this argument.
Since I'm the someone, I'll just chime in here and ask you if it was wrong for your team to throw out the creepy guy who was jerking off to
Mulan in your theater? He was creepy and you are being a bigot for saying he didn't have a right to exercise his creepiness in your theater.
EDIT:
See what I did there? Using your arguement against you?
Besides, you yourself have admitted that you would not welcome a
Maid player into your game group upthread, so you might as well stop pointing out other peoples discrimination since you discriminate yourself.
Quote from: StormBringer;256828All in all, Maid and Poison'd are not the kind of games I would want people to associate with RPGs. I will not hesitate to inform people that these are very fringe games that are generally decried for their subject matter by the general gaming populace.
Thanks for taking the time to answer Stormbringer and for not infereing any hostility on my part when I have mentioned your comments in some of my other posts. Although I disagree with you on the extent of the damage games like these are to the hobby, as usual I respect your stand on the issue and how you articulated your arguments.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: Spinachcat;256839Like this thread?
Well, only if one considers a description of a spell that summons demons the same kind of hype as a ruleset that supports 11yr olds in a dog collar performing broomplay for their 25yr old Master who 'Likes them Young', the specifics of which were censored out of the rule book.
In other words, its only like this thread if someone was a douchebag stretching a point to near breaking to defend sick fucks.
Quote from: Spinachcat;256839Like this thread?
No, in this thread there are gamers who are familiar with RPGs that are talking about games and gamers they do not find acceptable from a stance of experience with the subject matter.
Quote from: David R;256843Thanks for taking the time to answer Stormbringer and for not infereing any hostility on my part when I have mentioned your comments in some of my other posts. Although I disagree with you on the extent of the damage games like these are to the hobby, as usual I respect your stand on the issue and how you articulated your arguments.
Regards,
David R
Thank you, I am also glad I was able to answer your honest questions to your satisfaction so as not to degenerate into a cursing match as well. I don't take your disagreement with my 'impact assessment' as support for the questionable elements of the game, either, so any mention of 'sick fucks' excludes yourself.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256835You have that right, and you are also right to call douchebaggery on people with douchebag desires.
However, did you miss the part earlier in this discussion where someone said they wanted to keep "creepy gamers" out of gaming altogether? That's the part that is wrong. That is the comment which sparked this argument.
I guess that depends on what you mean by "keep out." If you're talking about some kind of preemptive vetting program by which anyone who peruses a copy of Maid will be banned from gaming in any way, shape or form, then sure. If you're talking about wishing the creepy people would go away, I don't see a problem. Again, we're talking about people who are creepy by definition so I don't see anything objectionable about discriminating against their inclusion in our personal activities.
(Also, keep in mind that I don't equate "creepy gamers" with "gamers who have an interest in Maid for any reason." I equate "creepy gamers" in this case with "people who think sexualizing 10 year old girls sounds like good times.")
KoOS
Quote from: RPGPundit;256787Then why are you wasting time trying to defend it?
Maybe because he doesn't think the entire game should be tried and convicted on the basis of a single example of play whose tone, while deeply repulsive to my own sensibilities, is not reflected in the vast majority of the game's text?
It goes back to the whole "call a spade a spade" argument. People like Fritzs aren't doing themselves any favours by suggesting that there's nothing untoward about traits like "Likes 'Em Young" or redefining the word "lover" from its common English meaning; by the same token, you're not doing yourself any favours by erroneously assuming that the whole book must be just like that example of play.
KoOS
Quote from: CavScout;256816Aren't examples of play, included in a rule book, intended to show how the game is intended to be played?
At least in this case they are examples of how the game
has been played: "replays", as the Japanese call them. I seem to recall that the ten-year-old girl was played by the designer's female friend who deliberately chose the transparent uniform over a rainbow-coloured one (and it
is just the uniform that's transparent, to be clear, not the other clothing underneath).
Quote from: GrimGent;256864At least in this case they are examples of how the game has been played: "replays", as the Japanese call them. I seem to recall that the ten-year-old girl was played by the designer's female friend who deliberately chose the transparent uniform over a rainbow-coloured one (and it is just the uniform that's transparent, to be clear, not the other clothing underneath).
... that the 26-year-old proceeded to forcibly remove later in the "replay."
KoOS
Quote from: King of Old School;256866... that the 26-year-old proceeded to forcibly remove later in the "replay."
...Which is highly inappropriate, of course. But it's still a far cry from the anime
FATAL that some posters in this thread would have it be.
Quote from: King of Old School;256823That's a pretty torturous leap of logic. You must be one hell of a gymnast.
Examples of play demonstrate how a game can be played, not how a game must be played. Surely even you're not too thick to understand the distinction, yes?
Like I said, aren't examples of play, included in a rule book,
intended to show how the game is intended to be played?
You do know what "intended to be played" means, right?
It would be unusual for an author to include examples of play that he didn't think the game would cover.
Quote from: JongWK;256838Did you read Loose Alliances and its warning about Fascism?
No, I stopped reading about the time things went to FanPro; I've read some stuff here and there, but I don't think I read Loose Alliances at all, although it's sitting in Paul's game room. What's it say? [Briefly, obviously. ;) ]
Quote from: GrimGent;256868...Which is highly inappropriate, of course. But it's still a far cry from the anime FATAL that some posters in this thread would have it be.
I object to the people on both sides who would presume that the game must either be
Legend of the Overfiend or
My Little Pony, with no gradient of (un)wholesomeness in between.
KoOS
Quote from: CavScout;256872Like I said, aren't examples of play, included in a rule book, intended to show how the game is intended to be played?
You do know what "intended to be played" means, right?
It would be unusual for an author to include examples of play that he didn't think the game would cover.
So you are too thick to differentiate between "can" and "must," then. Gotcha.
EDIT: If the book contains one creepy example of play and 38 wholesome examples of play, which way is the game intended to be played? Creepy or wholesome?
KoOS
Quote from: King of Old School;256823That's a pretty torturous leap of logic. You must be one hell of a gymnast.
Examples of play demonstrate how a game can be played, not how a game must be played. Surely even you're not too thick to understand the distinction, yes?
KoOS
Surely if the authors included it in the manual, as opposed to other possibilities that they did not, it at the very least suggests how the authors encourage you to play. I mean, unless you're suggesting someone put a gun to the author's head while he was writing the book and forced him to include that particular example out of the dozens or hundreds he could have theoretically used...
RPGPundit
Quote from: King of Old School;256874I object to the people on both sides who would presume that the game must either be Legend of the Overfiend or My Little Pony, with no gradient of (un)wholesomeness in between.
Eh, seeing folks keep some perspective on the whole affair would be nice but sometimes it's a little too much to hope for... I have no frog in this race, anyway.
Quote from: King of Old School;256830The thing is, sometimes membership of a group confers certain merits by definition. "Gamer who plays Maid" doesn't automatically make you a creep; "furry" does, IMO.
KoOS
I would suggest it makes you just as potentially creepy, yes.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;256879I would suggest it makes you just as potentially creepy, yes.
Motherfucker,
everyone is potentially creepy. Even you.
KoOS
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256835However, did you miss the part earlier in this discussion where someone said they wanted to keep "creepy gamers" out of gaming altogether? That's the part that is wrong. That is the comment which sparked this argument.
I certainly don't think there's anything wrong with that. I'd love it if there could be a concerted effort to exclude lawncrappers from any public participation in our hobby.
RPGPundit
Quote from: King of Old School;256875So you are too thick to differentiate between "can" and "must," then. Gotcha.
Not sure why you are calling be "thick" when you are transforming the word "intended" to "must".
Like I said, examples in a game book are showing how the game is intended to be played.
You may as well argue that one could play FATAL in a reasonable way but that does nothing to dispute that the game is a POS.
QuoteEDIT: If the book contains one creepy example of play and 38 wholesome examples of play, which way is the game intended to be played? Creepy or wholesome?
Would wholly depend on that act of "creepiness" and what it entailed.
Of course, in the real world, you judge a murder based on those he murdered not on those he didn’t. One example of pedophilia would erase a hundred examples of mundane examples of gameplay.
Quote from: RPGPundit;256877Surely if the authors included it in the manual, as opposed to other possibilities that they did not
Or perhaps, you know, they
did include other possibilities in the manual and it's not the only guide as to how to play the game. It might not even be representative of the included examples as a whole.
But then, knowing one way or the other would require you to actually be informed on the subject, rather than rely on hearsay and your own prejudices.
KoOS
Quote from: King of Old School;256875So you are too thick to differentiate between "can" and "must," then. Gotcha.
EDIT: If the book contains one creepy example of play and 38 wholesome examples of play, which way is the game intended to be played? Creepy or wholesome?
KoOS
The Scotsman says: "You know, I've built 200 houses in my life, but do they call me Angus the House-builder? And I've tiled 200 roofs, but do they call me Angus the Roof-tiler? Nae.. but you fuck just ONE sheep..."
In other words, even if that one creepy example was the only one in the game (and I doubt it is), it really does overshadow everything else in the book, yes.
RPGPundit
Quote from: CavScout;256882Of course, in the real world, you judge a murder based on those he murdered not on those he didn't. One example of pedophilia would erase a hundred examples of mundane examples of gameplay.
Wow, did you hear that "whoosh" sound? That was the point, sailing waaay over your infinitesimally tiny head as you compare apples and iron ore.
So let me get this straight, if there's one perverted example of play and 38 examples of wholesome play, the authors must
really really intend that the perverted example is the real one and the other 38 are just camouflage that have nothing to do with the authors' real intent. Did you figure that out on your own, or did the voices tell you? And how do you keep that big tinfoil hat from slipping off your little head, anyway?
KoOS
Quote from: RPGPundit;256885In other words, even if that one creepy example was the only one in the game (and I doubt it is), it really does overshadow everything else in the book, yes.
"Overshadow?" Hell yes, thus the continuation of this thread to 14 pages and counting.
OTOH, maybe you could stop moving the goalposts long enough to answer the question I actually asked, instead of the question you invented.
KoOS
I would say its ONE OF the intended styles of play, and that that ONE intended style of play is enough to make the game questionable, even if it has other styles which are not particularly objectionable.
RPGPundit
King of Old School, you are doing an excellent job of maintaining the forgotten (and accurate) middle ground here. Your opponents are only able to keep throwing distracting and sophist rhetorical techniques against you now. As tempting as it is to keep making them look ridiculous, I recommend you give it up in that it will only lead to greater frustration.
Quote from: RPGPundit;256890I would say its ONE OF the intended styles of play, and that that ONE intended style of play is enough to make the game questionable, even if it has other styles which are not particularly objectionable.
That's a reasonable stance... and one which I share, assuming that you mean questionable as it's normally defined and not as a euphemism for "deserving of a big bonfire, and reeducation for all who have glanced upon it."
Now I'd go one further and say that people who play Maid might choose to emulate the non-objectionable styles, rather than assume that only uberperverts could ever play it.
KoOS
Quote from: King of Old School;256887Wow, did you hear that "whoosh" sound? That was the point, sailing waaay over your infinitesimally tiny head as you compare apples and iron ore.
So let me get this straight, if there's one perverted example of play and 38 examples of wholesome play, the authors must really really intend that the perverted example is the real one and the other 38 are just camouflage that have nothing to do with the authors' real intent. Did you figure that out on your own, or did the voices tell you? And how do you keep that big tinfoil hat from slipping off your little head, anyway?
So, let me get this straight, the perverted examples of play are not an indication of the author's intent but other, non-perverted examples are?
I guess it's a start that you are moving towards the idea that examples in a RPG book are infact indicators on how the game is intended to be played...
Quote from: CavScout;256901So, let me get this straight, the perverted examples of play are not an indication of the author's intent but other, non-perverted examples are?
Since inference seems to be too difficult a concept for your tiny intellect, I'll spell it out for you: the authors' intent is that players will adopt whichever style of play suits the group. That might be creepy as fuck, or it might be
Jeeves and Wooster. The authors don't sit in the corner and whisper which one is the "real" one, and they don't express an intent regarding which choice consumers should make. If one wanted to infer a preference on the part of the authors, the logical inference would be that the 95% of the book that is relatively harmless innuendo is more in line with the authors' intent than the 5% that is irredeemable squick; otherwise the percentages would be reversed, or at least closer together. But then, you've demonstrated that concepts like logic are utterly foreign to your pea-sized brain.
KoOS
Does anyone have the actual text of the example in question with context? I don't own the book and I didn't notice it in my perusal.
Quote from: King of Old School;256913If one wanted to infer a preference on the part of the authors, the logical inference would be that the 95% of the book that is relatively harmless innuendo is more in line with the authors' intent than the 5% that is irredeemable squick; otherwise the percentages would be reversed, or at least closer together.
But why even include the 5% unless the authors assumed that this was a valid way to play the game, in their opinion?
TGA
Quote from: King of Old School;256913Since inference seems to be too difficult a concept for your tiny intellect, I'll spell it out for you: the authors' intent is that players will adopt whichever style of play suits the group. That might be creepy as fuck, or it might be Jeeves and Wooster. The authors don't sit in the corner and whisper which one is the "real" one, and they don't express an intent regarding which choice consumers should make. If one wanted to infer a preference on the part of the authors, the logical inference would be that the 95% of the book that is relatively harmless innuendo is more in line with the authors' intent than the 5% that is irredeemable squick; otherwise the percentages would be reversed, or at least closer together. But then, you've demonstrated that concepts like logic are utterly foreign to your pea-sized brain.
You are being intellectually dishonest if you think that authors don't have intent on how their games are to be played.
It is interesting in that you don't want examples of play to be a glimpse at author's intent when it is creepy game play but don't mind it being a glimpse when it is described as "harmless".
Let me just say, a RPG with just one example of an example of pedophilia in a game play example, amongst hundreds of other mundane examples, would be rightfully scorned by that single example.
Told you, King of Old School.
Quote from: King of Old School;256830"Gamer who plays Maid" doesn't automatically make you a creep
KoOS
Wait that's what I've been trying to say, why are we seemingly on opposing sides here? Probably my fault. :)
:S
That's been my point the whole time, that a gamer who plays Maid is not automatically a creep, and that keeping them out of the hobby is wrong.
Quote from: jeff37923;256842Since I'm the someone, I'll just chime in here and ask you if it was wrong for your team to throw out the creepy guy who was jerking off to Mulan in your theater? He was creepy and you are being a bigot for saying he didn't have a right to exercise his creepiness in your theater.
Except you missed the point entirely. So let me say it plainly. The pervert in Mulan had every right to be there. It wasn't until he imposed his perversion on other customers that we were forced to remove him. If we would have known about his masturbation sooner than would have called the cops.
We did however have no right to refuse him tickets to the movie just because he'd already seen it so many times, and we had suspicions that he was a creepy pervert.
Quote from: jeff37923;256842EDIT:
See what I did there? Using your arguement against you?
If by missing the point entirely you did in fact use my argument against me then I concede to your rediculous logic and salute your inability to get the point. :P
Quote from: jeff37923;256842Besides, you yourself have admitted that you would not welcome a Maid player into your game group upthread, so you might as well stop pointing out other peoples discrimination since you discriminate yourself.
I said not in my group. You said gaming as a whole. What part makes me like you?
Seriously I didn't think this was going to be such a tough idea to understand, perhaps I'm not explaining it in a clear fashion. Oh well. :)
Quote from: walkerp;256921Told you, King of Old School.
Told him what, exactly? That those who object to the sexual objectification of children as an explicit mode of play are somehow wrong to voice their complaints? That such objections are crass attempts to censor art?
Look at the shit you are shoveling, man...
TGA
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;256917But why even include the 5% unless the authors assumed that this was a valid way to play the game, in their opinion?
So what part of the umpteen posts I've typed in this thread confused you? Was it the numerous times I've used the phrase "creepy as fuck" to describe that 5% and the people who dig it? Was it when I asserted people's rights to judge childsex fantasists as douchebags? Was it when I scorned the people who bend over backwards to defend this kind of material?
Look, obviously the authors assume that this is a (singular, as in
one) valid way to play the game, and that would be enough to keep me from expressing an interest in Maid even if I had an interest in the genre the game emulates (which I don't, not even close). BUT, It doesn't follow that this is the only valid way to play the game, or even that it's the authors' intended way to play the game, which is what CavScout is rather stupidly arguing.
KoOS
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;256932Told him what, exactly? That those who object to the sexual objectification of children as an explicit mode of play are somehow wrong to voice their complaints? That such objections are crass attempts to censor art?
Motherfucker, do us all a favour and read the whole thread. Then come back and tell us who is arguing what.
EDIT: Okay, that was intemperate of me. I apologize.
KoOS
Quote from: CavScout;256919You are being intellectually dishonest if you think that authors don’t have intent on how their games are to be played.
I'd be more impressed if I thought you actually knew what "intellectually dishonest" meant, rather than just parroting it from one of my earlier posts. Unfortunately, you haven't demonstrated anything like the required mental acuity. Oh well.
QuoteIt is interesting in that you don't want examples of play to be a glimpse at author's intent when it is creepy game play but don't mind it being a glimpse when it is described as "harmless".
No, you're the one who claims the psychic ability to define which are the really real examples and which ones are just a facade of respectability. I just think that the evidence is inconclusive as to the authors' intent (assuming that the authors do have a preference, rather than intending to leave the choice wholly in the hands of the players).
QuoteLet me just say, a RPG with just one example of an example of pedophilia in a game play example, amongst hundreds of other mundane examples, would be rightfully scorned by that single example.
Then it's a good thing I've scorned it plenty for including that example. Not terribly swift on the uptake, are you?
KoOS
Quote from: King of Old School;256934Motherfucker, do us all a favour and read the whole thread. Then come back and tell us who is arguing what.
Perhaps you are right. This topic is unsettling to me, so I need to make sure that I am clear.
When a game has only one mode of play that can be interpreted as promoting situations depicting the abuse of child, then that is one too many for me. Do I think that every copy of
Maid be put in a big pile and burned? No, I do not. In fact, I believe that the only way to combat evil (and I do not use that term lightly) is to get it out the open where it can properly be shunned. That is what I think should be done in this case, as well.
If that is also your position, then I apologize for the confusion.
TGA
I suppose what I'm saying is that there are a number of people who will happily buy and play Maid who have no proclivity whatsoever for the really creepy stuff, but will consciously turn a blind eye to it. I disagree with turning a blind eye to it -- I disagree too strongly for some people's tastes -- but I don't think it follows that everyone or even the majority of people who play Maid are into sexualizing children. It's possible to draw those brushstrokes too broadly.
KoOS
Quote from: King of Old School;256962I suppose what I'm saying is that there are a number of people who will happily buy and play Maid who have no proclivity whatsoever for the really creepy stuff, but will consciously turn a blind eye to it. I disagree with turning a blind eye to it -- I disagree too strongly for some people's tastes -- but I don't think it follows that everyone or even the majority of people who play Maid are into sexualizing children. It's possible to draw those brushstrokes too broadly.
KoOS
Fair enough.
TGA
Quote from: CavScout;256901So, let me get this straight, the perverted examples of play are not an indication of the author's intent but other, non-perverted examples are?
Keep in mind that "Non-perverted" is also a (highly) relative term here. There's something inherently creepy about grown men sitting around a table together pretending to be teenage sexy maids trying to please their "master", even if they are all playing over-18 character ages.
RPGPundit
To sum this thread up: Some people, most notably Pundy, think, that they own the "RPG" trademark because they enjoy centrain aspect of it (the "trad" aspect), and therefore they need to protect it from harm. This stance is fucking wrong, no you don't own teh hobby, no one does. If you think any game can damage it, ok, nice, say it loudly and proudly, cos that's all you can do about it.
As for sick fucks... I belive, that there is difference between having sick fantasies and doing sick shit IRL. So I belive, that it's perfectly OK, in your fucking fantasies, to sexualize kids, murder¨, neckrape, whatever as long as it remains fantasy. Nothing of it is my cup of tea, cos obviosly deviant fantasies are rare (that's the reason they are called deviant) so if you have them, good luck finding anyone who wants to share. But you find someone, you can play RPG about it and fap to it afterwards. Just don't do it in my home or in any place, where the rules and laws forbids.
As for "furry" argument. It's shitty and there is only one thing you can do about it, if it's really happening: write fucking blogs about it and argue about it at internet fora and cry, because if it's allready happening, there is no way you can stop it.
Quote from: RPGPunditKeep in mind that "Non-perverted" is also a (highly) relative term here. There's something inherently creepy about grown men sitting around a table together pretending to be teenage sexy maids trying to please their "master", even if they are all playing over-18 character ages.
There is allso something deeply disturbing about grown up men, sitting around the table, pretending to be elfs, trying not to anger their gamemaster, and kill teh dragon.
Quote from: Fritzs;256999There is allso something deeply disturbing about grown up men, sitting around the table, pretending to be elfs, trying not to anger their gamemaster, and kill teh dragon.
Only because your opinions come from a deeply disturbing place.
"You wanna...go out...on a date...or something?"
Quote from: RPGPundit;256992Keep in mind that "Non-perverted" is also a (highly) relative term here. There's something inherently creepy about grown men sitting around a table together pretending to be teenage sexy maids trying to please their "master", even if they are all playing over-18 character ages.
Agreed. It has overtones of Sailor Bubba.
But what if it's 3 grown men and 2 grown women?
KoOS
Quote from: King of Old School;256948I'd be more impressed if I thought you actually knew what "intellectually dishonest" meant, rather than just parroting it from one of my earlier posts. Unfortunately, you haven't demonstrated anything like the required mental acuity. Oh well.
Oh dear, not another one of those who thinks they own words if they've ever uttered them.... I bet you're the first person evar! to use that phrase on this forum. You original cunt, you.
QuoteNo, you're the one who claims the psychic ability to define which are the really real examples and which ones are just a facade of respectability. I just think that the evidence is inconclusive as to the authors' intent (assuming that the authors do have a preference, rather than intending to leave the choice wholly in the hands of the players).
It's not "psychic" to read what the author wrote. It's simply a fallacy to try and claim, as you are, that all examples have to be examples of pedophilia for the "intent" of the RPG to be known.
One play example of it in a book is one example too much regardless of how many other "good" examples there are.
Again, are you still proclaiming that play examples included in an RPG book are not examples of how the game is intended to be played?
QuoteThen it's a good thing I've scorned it plenty for including that example. Not terribly swift on the uptake, are you?
Tough to tell when folks talk out of both sides of their mouth.
Quote from: CavScout;257020It's not "psychic" to read what the author wrote. It's simply a fallacy to try and claim, as you are, that all examples have to be examples of pedophilia for the "intent" of the RPG to be known.
For someone who keeps repeating the word over and over, you seem to have a problem comprehending what "intent" means. I understand that for people of your worldview, it appears that repeating a lie over and over again makes it truth, but the rest of us just point and laugh.
Alas, the hazards of arguing with trailer trash over the internet...
KoOS
Quote from: King of Old School;257022For someone who keeps repeating the word over and over, you seem to have a problem comprehending what "intent" means. I understand that for people of your worldview, it appears that repeating a lie over and over again makes it truth, but the rest of us just point and laugh.
Alas, the hazards of arguing with trailer trash over the internet...
So one can not infer intent from game-play examples in an RPG but psychically you're able to tell my "worldview", whatever that means, from a few posts here? Fucking amazing, really, it is.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256835However, did you miss the part earlier in this discussion where someone said they wanted to keep "creepy gamers" out of gaming altogether? That's the part that is wrong. That is the comment which sparked this argument.
Why is it wrong to exclude creepy gamers?
Did you ever see that series of ads, "it's the fish that John West rejects that make the products so good"? Well, it's the
gamers we reject that make our game groups so good.
But hey, let's make a deal. We'll reject the creepy gamers, and you can have them. You can have a whole group of creepy gamers. We don't mind. They're all yours.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;257058Why is it wrong to exclude creepy gamers?
Did you ever see that series of ads, "it's the fish that John West rejects that make the products so good"? Well, it's the gamers we reject that make our game groups so good.
Yeah but John West doesn't stop other crappier companies from utilizing those fish. Some people can only afford that bottom of the barrel seafood.
Again, I'm not talking about excluding them from your own group. I too would do the same. I'm rejecting the idea that we should have them excluded from the hobby of roleplaying games entirely.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;257058But hey, let's make a deal. We'll reject the creepy gamers, and you can have them. You can have a whole group of creepy gamers. We don't mind. They're all yours.
No thanks, I'd reject them from my own group just as quick as you would. Let's make a deal, you reread my posts and understand what I'm getting at. I really don't see where I'm not making my point clear.
I will not play Maid in my group, nor will I allow people, who want to RP such fetishes, to play with me in my group. That does not however make it alright for me to assume that the entire gaming community should do the same. That is not for me to say. Let them have their own creepy groups full of creepy gamers if that is what they want.I really can't say it any clearer than that.
Quote from: Fritzs;256998To sum this thread up: Some people, most notably Pundy, think, that they own the "RPG" trademark because they enjoy centrain aspect of it (the "trad" aspect), and therefore they need to protect it from harm. This stance is fucking wrong, no you don't own teh hobby, no one does. If you think any game can damage it, ok, nice, say it loudly and proudly, cos that's all you can do about it.
You're wrong. We do own the hobby, the regular gamers, because we built it up. We worked for it. Men like Erick Wujcik helped to make it what it is. Do you think I'm going to let you befoul his legacy, by just handing this hobby over to those who had no hand in making it, and have no interest in anything other than abusing it for their own purposes? Sorry, that's not my future.
QuoteAs for "furry" argument. It's shitty and there is only one thing you can do about it, if it's really happening: write fucking blogs about it and argue about it at internet fora and cry, because if it's allready happening, there is no way you can stop it.
You just watch me, you meatsucking shitsack.
RPGPundit
On the plus side, if you GM a Maid LARP game, you could possibly get your house cleaned for free...though it may scar your soul...
Quote from: Idinsinuation;256923Except you missed the point entirely. So let me say it plainly. The pervert in Mulan had every right to be there.
I disagree with this stance entirely.
The rights of a single pervert do not outweigh the rights of the rest of the moviegoers in that theater. Each non-pervert there should not have to put up with the antics of a single sick fuck, whether they notice it or not.
In the case of
Maid or
Poison'd, because they are questionable to fucked up content games, the knowledge that a gamer plays them should be enough indication to keep that gamer from being associated with your hobby if you give a damn about that hobby's reputation. Unless you go for the creepy gamer type in your game group
Claiming that we have to be tolerant of creepy gamers is only acceptible if you allow them to represent your hobby. I don't want my hobby represented, even partially, by creepy gamers because that reflects poorly on me and every other gamer who isn't creepy. The old saying goes, "One Oh Shit erases a thousand Attaboys." That applies here. A creepy gamer in public is an "Oh Shit", who will remain in the minds of the people far longer than the "thousand Attaboys" of the rest of us.
Quote from: RPGPunditYou're wrong.
Then prove it. Show me the licences, documents... nothing like this...? You don't own a shit.
Quote from: RPGPunditWe do own the hobby, the regular gamers, because we built it up.
Who are we...? You've allready excluded me, so... give me names.
Quote from: RPGPunditWe worked for it.
By playing D&D in your mom's basement...? Hard work for sure!
Quote from: RPGPunditMen like Erick Wujcik helped to make it what it is.
He wrote several games. He helped to make his games what they are. They quite possibly influenced several otjer game desingers, bnut there are players who has never heard about him nor his games.
Quote from: RPGPunditDo you think I'm going to let you befoul his legacy,
I am not befouling anyones legacy, actually I never said anything about him or his games in this thread.
Quote from: RPGPunditby just handing this hobby over to those who had no hand in making it,
Suprise: Mojority of gamers have never participiated at cons are are inactive o the internet, all that is interesting to them is their own little group ang game... si it wrong for these to play RPGs...?
Quote from: RPGPunditand have no interest in anything other than abusing it for their own purposes?
I think, I play RPGs for my own purpose of having fun... is that abusing...?
Quote from: RPGPunditSorry, that's not my future.
The future isn't dictated by ones like you. The future rolls over suckers like you.
Quote from: RPGPunditYou just watch me, you meatsucking shitsack.
How, are you going to sue "the swine" or what...
Quote from: Idinsinuation;257065Yeah but John West doesn't stop other crappier companies from utilizing those fish. Some people can only afford that bottom of the barrel seafood.
Unlike eating, gaming is not a necessity. (Crazy talk, I know, but true!) So nobody
has to game with creepy fuckers.
Quote from: IdsinuationAgain, I'm not talking about excluding them from your own group. I too would do the same. I'm rejecting the idea that we should have them excluded from the hobby of roleplaying games entirely.
You're imagining that there's a fixed pool of potential players, from good to crap, and that
someone has to get the last one on the shelf. But it's not true.
In fact, there are
many potential gamers who've never gamed. When invited to game, they'll consider it just like I consider it when invited to a party. Who else will be there? People I'll get along with? People who are weird or boring? And so on.
If we include the freaks, then that puts off people new to our group, or new to gaming entirely. If we exclude the freaks and only have sensible, friendly and sociable people, then that encourages people new to our group or gaming.
By driving the freaks from the hobby, we encourage sensible friendly people to join.
When John West rejects fish, that makes every
other fishing company more careful in its fishing. It raises the general standard.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;257065I will not play Maid in my group, nor will I allow people, who want to RP such fetishes, to play with me in my group. That does not however make it alright for me to assume that the entire gaming community should do the same. That is not for me to say. Let them have their own creepy groups full of creepy gamers if that is what they want.
I really can't say it any clearer than that.
Sure, and the only place I think you're disagreeing here is that some of us would like it if we took that just one step further and said "Let them have their own creepy label."
Really, we just need a label for Perverted Swine Lawncrappers that sounds relatively neutral. it would be best if we could get them folk to adopt it for themselves. Something the creepy gamers can rally around.
Like "Storygamers" or "Narativists" (yes that's right narativists, I'm totally willing to throw you under the bus).
Thus Gamers can be like Comic Book Fans, and merely socially rejected geeks, and the
Euphemism For Perverted Swine Lawncrappers can be like Furries, and widely rejected and reviled by the mainstream of gamers.
Quote from: Kyle Aaronsensible, friendly and sociable people
If sensible, friendly and socialbe people read therpgsite, or pundy's blog, they would run away sceaming in terror and never return.
Quote from: Fritzs;257126If sensible, friendly and socialbe people read therpgsite, or pundy's blog, they would run away sceaming in terror and never return.
Which means that none of us here are sensible, friendly and sociable. So what are you complaining about?
But it's all relative; friendly, sociable and sensible are traits of degree. You or I may be unfriendly, unsociable and stupid
compared to the general population, but we are still overall better than a creepy gamer.
Quote from: Kyle Aaronbut we are still overall better than a creepy gamer.
Ever seen creepy gamer...?
The Poobutt is lying through his teeth, Fritz. It was me and my stalwart group of stoners who built this hobby; roll by roll by altered pencil mark. Poobutt was too busy trying to get into Vampire LARPers' pants.
Quote from: Fritzs;257139Ever seen creepy gamer...?
Yes, and I have seen the negative effect they can have on other players. Haven't you ever heard about the Creepy Gamer Thread?
First impressions count in social interactions. The impression that a creepy gamer has on people new to the hobby, who do not have enough experience to realize that creepy gamers are a minority and not the majority, is that creepy gamers represent
all of the hobby or enough of it that they are deemed acceptable by the hobby peer group.
Lets say that you have a group consisting of experienced gamers who has a creepy gamer join in. By accepting the creepy gamer, that group is giving tacit approval to the behavior that makes that creepy gamer, creepy. So if you've got a creepy gamer who always sexualizes whatever game play occurs, or who delights in juvenile gore (neck-rape the cabin boy's corpse!), or has a habit of bringing actual weapons to the game table, or constantly makes lewd advances towards other gamers there, or always "accidently" takes people's property without asking - then that gamer group is saying that this behavior is acceptable to them because they are allowing that player to stay in the group. This will eventually cause the game group to disband because people will only put up with so much bullshit in their social lives.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;257065I will not play Maid in my group, nor will I allow people, who want to RP such fetishes, to play with me in my group.
On the other hand, to me that sounds much like all the "I heard that he'd been playing
Kult so I kicked the sick bastard out of my house" or "yeah, I don't let men play women or women play men, 'cause they're all doing it just to be kinky" or "I'd walk out of any game that features actual gods, of course, since as an atheist I can't condone nonsense like that" comments that I've seen crop up on gaming sites. That's their right and privilege, naturally, but it's still just going to make me shrug in a "can't please 'em all, won't ask him to play then" sort of a way. I get a fair share of grief for apparently not showing
enough interest in sex, so there's no real way to win those arguments in any case.
Quote from: Fritzs;257126If sensible, friendly and socialbe people read therpgsite, or pundy's blog, they would run away sceaming in terror and never return.
800-1200 people a day disagree with you. Of course, you probably read my blog every day, what with your strange fucking obsessive hate-fixation on me, so I guess you might have a point in that not all those hundreds are decent people...
RPGPundit
In the end I can admit, I won't be welcoming perverts with open arms. I won't be inviting them to play in my game. Hell in the past at a party, I removed a pedophile from my apartment using his face to open the door. The fact remains that although I may not like it, creepy gamers exist and I may have even gamed with a pervert in the past who kept his shit to himself.
I've never once encountered somebody who knew just enough about gaming to label it with a hard definition that included the creeps, the geeks, the working class folks and everybody in between. It just doesn't happen. I meet two types of people when I bring up my hobby. Those who have played, and those who haven't played. Never once have I got that look that says, "Oh. You're one of those." Roleplaying is one of those things that's either interesting to someone, or it's not. People seem to think that we have a "reputation" and so far I just have never seen it.
Quote from: GrimGent;257162On the other hand, to me that sounds much like all the "I heard that he'd been playing Kult so I kicked the sick bastard out of my house" or "yeah, I don't let men play women or women play men, 'cause they're all doing it just to be kinky" or "I'd walk out of any game that features actual gods, of course, since as an atheist I can't condone nonsense like that" comments that I've seen crop up on gaming sites. That's their right and privilege, naturally, but it's still just going to make me shrug in a "can't please 'em all, won't ask him to play then" sort of a way. I get a fair share of grief for apparently not showing enough interest in sex, so there's no real way to win those arguments in any case.
Nah, I just meant in my own group. What they do on their own time in other game groups is their business. I really have thin limits having roleplayed plenty of taboo subjects. However anything even remotely bordering on child porn or pedophilia is out without compromise.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;257203In the end I can admit, I won't be welcoming perverts with open arms. I won't be inviting them to play in my game. Hell in the past at a party, I removed a pedophile from my apartment using his face to open the door.
Sound like an interesting situation. How did you know he was a pedophile?
Quote from: walkerp;257217Sound like an interesting situation. How did you know he was a pedophile?
He told us. She was 13 and he was 19. When he was asked politely to leave he refused and pushed my friend Des down, so I removed him. I worked with him at Burger King for a few months so I guess he assumed I wouldn't get angry. *shrug* Real fucked up part is that while he was sleeping with a 13 year old girl, his 16 year old girlfriend was pregnant. I didn't know his girlfriend was 16 until after the fight though. Not really that interesting I guess.
I will add that heads are not very good for opening doors.
Quote from: RPGPunditwith your strange fucking obsessive hate-fixation
It's amusing to hear such from someone, who is hate-fixated. No, Pundy, you aren't holy warrior who will save RPGs from swine-dragons you are insane court jester of RPGs and it's fun to make you mad... In fact I don't hate you, I can't hate someone that provided me with so much fun.
Idinsinuation: He was hebephile, not pedophile... or quite possibly not even hebephile, just fucked up person.
Quote from: Fritzs;257292Idinsinuation: He was hebephile, not pedophile... or quite possibly not even hebephile, just fucked up person.
A pedophile is someone who is sexually attracted to a child or children. 13 qualifies as a child last time I checked. Anyway tomato toemahtoe, they're all fucked anyway. :)
The reaction to 'Carcosa' has been very different to the reaction to 'Maid' on this forum, even though they both seem to have the same kind of dubious content.
Quote from: Age of Fable;257383The reaction to 'Carcosa' has been very different to the reaction to 'Maid' on this forum, even though they both seem to have the same kind of dubious content.
Could it be anime/manga hate creeping in to add it's weight to the situation?
Quote from: Age of Fable;257383The reaction to 'Carcosa' has been very different to the reaction to 'Maid' on this forum, even though they both seem to have the same kind of dubious content.
Not a Forge-related game.
Quote from: Age of Fable;257383The reaction to 'Carcosa' has been very different to the reaction to 'Maid' on this forum, even though they both seem to have the same kind of dubious content.
I'd have to say that someone advocating a game in which "an eleven year old girl must be raped eleven times and strangled with her own hair" in order to gain magical power loses any moral high ground that they might otherwise hold when criticizing the likes of
Maid. That's an atrocity on a whole different scale, after all, and even bound intrinsically to the core mechanics by the book so that it isn't simply something that the players might bring to the table.
Carcosa sounds like crap along the lines of utterly crapulent books on the level of FATAL: infantile bullshit that I wouldn't want in my hobby any more than I want Maid.
One key difference is that no one, to my knowledge, is presenting Carcosa as the best thing since sliced bread, or a "brilliant" or "artistic" product.
But there, are you happy now?
RPGPundit
Quote from: Age of Fable;257383The reaction to 'Carcosa' has been very different to the reaction to 'Maid' on this forum, even though they both seem to have the same kind of dubious content.
I'll be honest, even as a *huge* fan of Sword & Sorcery, the description of
Carcosa creeps me out. If Sorceror was not a playable class and without such graphic detail it might be slightly more acceptable in that they would specifically be NPC villains for players to skewer. As a PC class it crosses my personal line in a big way.
TGA
Quote from: Fritzs;257139Ever seen creepy gamer...?
Yes.
Quote from: GrimGent;257411I'd have to say that someone advocating a game in which "an eleven year old girl must be raped eleven times and strangled with her own hair" in order to gain magical power loses any moral high ground that they might otherwise hold when criticizing the likes of Maid.
I don't advocate that game, either.
It's possible to have contempt for A while
also having contempt for B, but to be focusing on A. It's a rather communist idea that we should distribute our contempt equally among all.
Quote from: Kyle AaronIt's possible to have contempt for A while also having contempt for B, but to be focusing on A. It's a rather communist idea that we should distribute our contempt equally among all.
WTF...? Maid more sick, than game about raping 11 years old girl and then killing her? Surely, the stange distribution of contempt must have something to do with forge-hate, storygamers-hate, someone's obscession with maid anime-selfhate, whatever-hate.
Come on, guys, surely it's off topic by now. Maybe this place needs a separate "take ridiculously extreme positions for the sake of an argument" forum.
Although, thinking about it, that's the philosophy behind this entire site.
Ned
Quote from: Fritzs;257454WTF...? Maid more sick, than game about raping 11 years old girl and then killing her?
It's not a matter of it being more or less sick. It's simply that we never distribute our attentions evenly, neither on the things we like nor on the things we dislike.
I mean, imagine if someone makes me steak and chips. I begin with the chips.
"Don't you like the steak?"
"The steak is fine. I'm just eating the chips first."
"If you really liked the steak you'd eat it first!"
"Well, I like both equally."
"I don't believe you. Only if in every bite you have an equal amount of steak and chips will I believe that you like both steak and chips."
"At least let me finish this mouthful of chips first."
"Man, you obviously hate the steak!"
"I am going to stab you with this fork."
Don't be stupid.
Quote from: Ned the Lonely Donkey;257468Although, thinking about it, that's the philosophy behind this entire site.
When I hear the word 'culture', I reach for my revolver.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;257436It's possible to have contempt for A while also having contempt for B, but to be focusing on A. It's a rather communist idea that we should distribute our contempt equally among all.
True enough. I'm just pointing out that this is where keeping some of the freakin' perspective mentioned earlier comes in: there's a world of difference between a game in which a PC
might rape an underage girl and a game which
requires a PC to rape an underage girl, of a specific skin colour, in a specific manner, for a specific reward. That way lies
Empire of Satanis.
Quote from: Age of Fable;257383The reaction to 'Carcosa' has been very different to the reaction to 'Maid' on this forum, even though they both seem to have the same kind of dubious content.
It could well be that most people here weren't aware of it until now. Give it some time...
Quote from: JongWK;257494It could well be that most people here weren't aware of it until now. Give it some time...
To be fair, Fable's comment seems to have been inspired by the glowing review and the initial chorus of "want" and "must have" and "very cool" which followed shortly afterwards.
Quote from: GrimGent;257479True enough. I'm just pointing out that this is where keeping some of the freakin' perspective mentioned earlier comes in: there's a world of difference between a game in which a PC might rape an underage girl and a game which requires a PC to rape an underage girl, of a specific skin colour, in a specific manner, for a specific reward. That way lies Empire of Satanis.
I agree. Compared to the explicit garbage in Carcosa, at least the author/translator of
Maid had the self-awareness of shame enough to try to hide his deviant fantasies behind the 95% of the game not based on 10 year old broomplay. It's not much, but you are right in saying that Carcosa is in a whole different league.
TGA
Quote from: GrimGent;257479True enough. I'm just pointing out that this is where keeping some of the freakin' perspective mentioned earlier comes in: there's a world of difference between a game in which a PC might rape an underage girl and a game which requires a PC to rape an underage girl, of a specific skin colour, in a specific manner, for a specific reward. That way lies Empire of Satanis.
As fucked up as they both are, one at least recognizes the "evilness" of the acts while the other one is attempting to make it out as no big thing.
Quote from: JongWK;257494It could well be that most people here weren't aware of it until now. Give it some time...
This.
Quote from: CavScout;257536As fucked up as they both are, one at least recognizes the "evilness" of the acts while the other one is attempting to make it out as no big thing.
Let's put it this way... In
Maid, even attempting to roll your Affection against another character's Will to see if you manage to seduce them is an optional rule. In
Carcosa, one of the two available character classes routinely tortures, rapes and murders children. To echo someone from the Dragonsfoot forums, I know which one I could play with my grandmother.
Quote from: GrimGent;257542Let's put it this way... In Maid, even attempting to roll your Affection against another character's Will to see if you manage to seduce them is an optional rule. In Carcosa, one of the two available character classes routinely tortures, rapes and murders children. To echo someone from the Dragonsfoot forums, I know which one I could play with my grandmother.
That you'd play either one....
Quote from: GrimGent;257542Let's put it this way... In Maid, even attempting to roll your Affection against another character's Will to see if you manage to seduce them is an optional rule. In Carcosa, one of the two available character classes routinely tortures, rapes and murders children. To echo someone from the Dragonsfoot forums, I know which one I could play with my grandmother.
Also the designer of
Carcosa (it could be argued) attempts to hide or at least associate his work with that of other more well respected (in certain quarters) designer(s). So much for recognizing it's "evilness" .
Regards,
David R
Quote from: GrimGent;257542Let's put it this way... In Maid, even attempting to roll your Affection against another character's Will to see if you manage to seduce them is an optional rule. In Carcosa, one of the two available character classes routinely tortures, rapes and murders children.
That's the hypocrisy I find so amusing about this. The objectionable portion of Maid is a single report of actual play; the objectionable portion of Carcosa is built into the rules from the ground up. Maid doesn't give you rules for fucking yourself with a broom, or rules for underage sex; it does provide a toolkit that can very easily lead that way if that's your intent, and does include this example of play that everyone's up in arms about, but the
point of Carcosa is the existence of these thoroughly evil mages who do much, much worse in ways much, much more explicit, which are laid out clearly in the rules!
And yet there are hundreds of posts condemning Maid, and only a few bothering to condemn Carcosa, and to be honest, I really don't understand why that should be, although some of the suggestions already provided are compelling.
Quote from: Engine;257554And yet there are hundreds of posts condemning Maid, and only a few bothering to condemn Carcosa, and to be honest, I really don't understand why that should be, although some of the suggestions already provided are compelling.
Hey, I am doing my best here...;)
TGA
Quote from: Engine;257554And yet there are hundreds of posts condemning Maid, and only a few bothering to condemn Carcosa, and to be honest, I really don't understand why that should be, although some of the suggestions already provided are compelling.
I would second the suggestion that it more or less just came out, and isn't as well known yet. Once things get rolling, and more people read the Dragonsfoot AP threads, I think the authour's shockedgycoolness will be detrimental.
Help, I'm drowning in moralizing and righteous superiority!
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/26/65028620_0b4a4c1d02.jpg)
"What a nasty young man, Ethel!"
"He certainly is, Gladys! My father would have horse-whipped him!"
Quote from: walkerp;257557Help, I'm drowning in moralizing and righteous superiority!
I see the effects of sexual abuse on children every day. This is not, by the way, an appeal to authority. It is a statement that these issues impact real children in very real ways. We should take that into consideration when we decide what to accept in our lives, in our social setting, and in our communities.
If you think that freedom is the same thing as freedom from the responsibility of having standards, then I don't know what to say.
TGA
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;257555Hey, I am doing my best here...;)
Yes, you are, and you should be recognized for that. You are one of the [few] people whose moral stance appears to be consistent and based on thought, and not [only] emotion. Well done.
edit: Why does this sound sarcastic? I have a tone problem. Anyway, just to clarify, I mean this in all seriousness.
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;257567I see the effects of sexual abuse on children every day. This is not, by the way, an appeal to authority. It is a statement that these issues impact real children in very real ways. We should take that into consideration when we decide what to accept in our lives, in our social setting, and in our communities.
If you think that freedom is the same thing as freedom from the responsibility of having standards, then I don't know what to say.
Here's my problem - pretty much everyone thinks the rape of children is the most vile thing imaginable, regardless of the person's age/gender/race/etc. Even the nastiest, most brutal murderers and rapists (of adults) in prison reject child rapists (and frequently attempt to murder them in prison out of principle).
So when I get on here and see several of the main posters start saying "what's the big deal about games that promote pedophilia?", I really do think Pundit has a point. Because if that's where people want to take RPGs, or even just this message board, I'd just as soon find something else to do with my time.
Quote from: David R;257546Also the designer of Carcosa (it could be argued) attempts to hide or at least associate his work with that of other more well respected (in certain quarters) designer(s). So much for recognizing it's "evilness" .
Regards,
David R
It certainly wasn't an effective ploy, for my part. I have mentioned as much, but I don't think a rather obscure book from a rather obscure game is adequate justification for the excesses mentioned.
To paraphrase Nigel Tufnel; "But, the rape in this game goes to eleven!" I don't find citing
Psycho as an influence for
Hostel a particularly compelling defence for torture porn.
Quote from: jgants;257570So when I get on here and see several of the main posters start saying "what's the big deal about games that promote pedophilia?",
Wait a minute. Who are these "main posters" ? And where did they say "what's the big deal about games that promote pedophhilia".
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David R;257573Wait a minute. Who are these "main posters" ? And where did they say "what's the big deal about games that promote pedophhilia".
Regards,
David R
No one used the exact quote. But walker and droog, among others, have both essentially said, "what's the big deal?" and classified anyone who actually expressed a dislike of the idea to be puritanical.
This stands in sharp contrast to society everywhere else where if you asked people if they'd be interested in a game with pedophile-themed overtones, you'd likely get the crap kicked out of you.
Quote from: StormBringer;257572It certainly wasn't an effective ploy, for my part. I have mentioned as much, but I don't think a rather obscure book from a rather obscure game is adequate justification for the excesses mentioned.
Well the designer of
Carcosa certainly does (he says so in his blog posting) and quite a few other people, who seem enthusiastic about this particular supplement. But the reason why I brought it up was because I think it's naive to think that
Carcosa recognizes the evilness of it's nature by virture of being associated (rightly or wrongly) with this other work.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: jgants;257570Here's my problem - pretty much everyone thinks the rape of children is the most vile thing imaginable, regardless of the person's age/gender/race/etc. Even the nastiest, most brutal murderers and rapists (of adults) in prison reject child rapists (and frequently attempt to murder them in prison out of principle).
So when I get on here and see several of the main posters start saying "what's the big deal about games that promote pedophilia?", I really do think Pundit has a point. Because if that's where people want to take RPGs, or even just this message board, I'd just as soon find something else to do with my time.
Here's my problem. You are taking RPGPundit's rhetoric and accepting it at face value. 1. Neither of these games "promote" pedophilia. Maid has a teeny section of the game that has the potential to include it, Carcosa (from my understanding) has it as a part of the worst possible rituals a sorceror, who is not featured as a PC type anyways, can perform. 2. Barely anyone is going to read, let alone play these games and 3. there is a substantive difference between what is played out at the table and what happens in real life. This is the case for all media.
I don't think there is anyone on this thread who is saying that the pedophiliac elements in these games are neat-o and fun to play. We are objecting to the idea that someone can decide what is and isn't correct content for a game and who should and should not be allowed to participate in the hobby.
Quote from: The Good AssyrianIf you think that freedom is the same thing as freedom from the responsibility of having standards, then I don't know what to say
Standarts of how to act are necessary for ones survival within society and for society to work. If you break them (for example you murder someone) you will be punished (jailed, executed). However I belive, that having standarts for "what should I imagine" or "what should I fap to" isn't necessary for you.
Quote from: Engine;257554That's the hypocrisy I find so amusing about this. The objectionable portion of Maid is a single report of actual play; the objectionable portion of Carcosa is built into the rules from the ground up. Maid doesn't give you rules for fucking yourself with a broom, or rules for underage sex; it does provide a toolkit that can very easily lead that way if that's your intent, and does include this example of play that everyone's up in arms about, but the point of Carcosa is the existence of these thoroughly evil mages who do much, much worse in ways much, much more explicit, which are laid out clearly in the rules!
And yet there are hundreds of posts condemning Maid, and only a few bothering to condemn Carcosa, and to be honest, I really don't understand why that should be, although some of the suggestions already provided are compelling.
Again, for starters, as far as I can see Carcosa is being self-published, by a lone guy, from his BLOG. Please.
Whereas maid has been published by one of the leaders of the Forge/storygames movement, and counts as one of their "major releases" (meaning it might sell a few dozen copies, which sounds pathetic, but seriously odds are carcosa will sell even less).
So what you're saying is the equivalent of saying that the Blue party is just as bad as the Red party, because while the Red Party has their vice-presidential candidate calling for the blue-party-leader's Death, the blue party has a lone nutcase claiming to represent them doing the same.
Its not equivalent. I have already denounced the creator of Carcosa, within the limits of what I know about that game, which admittedly aren't much because HE'S A LONE NUTJOB PUBLISHING HIS GAME VIA HIS BLOG.
It seems to me that the Storygamers went looking for this guy, and have now carted him out to try to act as their "shield", as though that somehow covers up for all of their own crapulence.
RPGPundit
Quote from: jgants;257580No one used the exact quote. But walker and droog, among others, have both essentially said, "what's the big deal?" and classified anyone who actually expressed a dislike of the idea to be puritanical.
This stands in sharp contrast to society everywhere else where if you asked people if they'd be interested in a game with pedophile-themed overtones, you'd likely get the crap kicked out of you.
I argue that "pedophile-themed overtones" is an exaggeration. Those overtones are similar to the overtones of deviant furry sex in any game that has humanoid animals in it, according to RPGPundit.
But even if it does, there are tons of examples in other media of pedophilia-themed overtones that are socially accepted. Lolita, child beauty pageants, Calvin Klein ads, all French movies. Yes, they all cause a stir as well, but they aren't the destruction of that medium.
Quote from: walkerp;257583I don't think there is anyone on this thread who is saying that the pedophiliac elements in these games are neat-o and fun to play. We are objecting to the idea that someone can decide what is and isn't correct content for a game and who should and should not be allowed to participate in the hobby.
And yet you did claim that anyone who didn't approve of an 11 year old maid in a transparent uniform was a "prude", didn't you?
Didn't you, motherfucker?
RPGPundit
Quote from: jgants;257580No one used the exact quote. But walker and droog, among others, have both essentially said, "what's the big deal?" and classified anyone who actually expressed a dislike of the idea to be puritanical.
This stands in sharp contrast to society everywhere else where if you asked people if they'd be interested in a game with pedophile-themed overtones, you'd likely get the crap kicked out of you.
I would be willing to bet that a lot more people watch maid-type anime than play RPGs. Quite a lot of those will be girls.
If I asked various of my friends about playing a game about anime maids, I imagine some will be right there with sex jokes. I won't be asking them, because I'm really not interested in that genre (I'd rather play Nicotine Girls, which isn't so problematic politically).
I can't be bothered looking Carcosa over properly, but it doesn't look any worse than some of the stuff Moorcock came up with. I seem to remember the Melniboneans torturing slaves for the beauty of their voices as they were dying. For example.
I find a lot of the comments to be prim and pious, not to say priggish.
Quote from: jgants;257580No one used the exact quote. But walker and droog, among others, have both essentially said, "what's the big deal?" and classified anyone who actually expressed a dislike of the idea to be puritanical.
This is such a misreading. There are a few reasonable posters who are saying, "there are elements in both of these games that cross my line and that I don't feel comfortable with, but I recognize that they are just a small part of the game and most players will barely touch upon it, if at all."
We are calling puritanical the shrill voices of those who are screaming "burn! Get these lawncrappers out of our hobby!"
Quote from: droog;257592I would be willing to bet that a lot more people watch maid-type anime than play RPGs. Quite a lot of those will be girls.
If I asked various of my friends about playing a game about anime maids, I imagine some will be right there with sex jokes. I won't be asking them, because I'm really not interested in that genre (I'd rather play Nicotine Girls, which isn't so problematic politically).
I can't be bothered looking Carcosa over properly, but it doesn't look any worse than some of the stuff Moorcock came up with. I seem to remember the Melniboneans torturing slaves for the beauty of their voices as they were dying. For example.
I find a lot of the comments to be prim and pious, not to say priggish.
I have to give you credit, Droog. You at least have the guts to admit to our faces what a degenerate decadent sack of shit you are, and not try to hide it in double-talk and justifications the way Walker or Fritzs do.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;257591And yet you did claim that anyone who didn't approve of an 11 year old maid in a transparent uniform was a "prude", didn't you?
I don't think I did. And besides, I don't see how that can possibly compare to you talking about feeling up your 70-year old hispanic maid ("for kicks" was how you put it, no?) considering that is actually the real world.
Motherfucker.
I forgot 'pompous'.
Quote from: walkerp;257593This is such a misreading. There are a few reasonable posters who are saying, "there are elements in both of these games that cross my line and that I don't feel comfortable with, but I recognize that they are just a small part of the game and most players will barely touch upon it, if at all."
We are calling puritanical the shrill voices of those who are screaming "burn! Get these lawncrappers out of our hobby!"
Bullshit. You were claiming that we were "prudes" for being upset about the presence of the underage-sex elements of Maid.
You were defending the pedophiliac elements of the game then, why are you backtracking now, that jgants has named you? Droog admits it, why don't you?
RPGPundit
Quote from: walkerp;257595I don't think I did. And besides, I don't see how that can possibly compare to you talking about feeling up your 70-year old hispanic maid ("for kicks" was how you put it, no?) considering that is actually the real world.
Motherfucker.
Yeah, there's only one difference between my attack on you, and yours on mine, you see. I never said anything of the sort, where as you did accuse those of us who were opposed to the pedophilia in Maid of being "prudes", on several occasions, you stupid fucking cunt.
And someone (probably Jong) will pick through this thread with a fine-toothed comb and will point out exactly where you did.
RPGPundit
Quote from: jgants;257580This stands in sharp contrast to society everywhere else where if you asked people if they'd be interested in a game with pedophile-themed overtones, you'd likely get the crap kicked out of you.
Ironically, the people doing the crap-kicking will still go home and watch a television covered in pedophile-themed overtones.
Quote from: RPGPundit;257587Again, for starters, as far as I can see Carcosa is being self-published, by a lone guy, from his BLOG.
I don't really buy the argument that one person committing a
really bad atrocity is less bad than several people committing a less-bad atrocity, sorry.
Quote from: RPGPunditYou at least have the guts to admit to our faces what a degenerate decadent sack of shit you are, and not try to hide it in double-talk and justifications the way Walker or Fritzs do.
I don't think I have to admit I am decanent shitsack... I feel no need to play Maid or the like in sexual way... I just defend the right of perverts to play it as they wish.
Sigh.
Some of us are actually trying to have a discussion here, RPGPundit, not win debating points.
But go ahead with your righteous froth. Please don't take your moral fervour out on your underpaid, third world maid, is all I ask.
Fuck it, you know what, I won't wait for Jong. Its on PAGE FUCKING TWO, Walker, you sack of shit. You call us "Kneejerk moralists" and compare us to the "Christian Right" on PAGE FUCKING TWO, because we took issue with Maid's underage-sex themes.
How many more examples are there in the next 60 pages?
You scumbag lying fuck.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Fritzs;257611I don't think I have to admit I am decanent shitsack... I feel no need to play Maid or the like in sexual way... I just defend the right of perverts to play it as they wish.
Which is actually worse in some ways, because it promotes the idea that people shouldn't bother to find the behavior unacceptable. Which, in turn, gives the impression that such behavior is tolerated, or perhaps even condoned.
Why would we want to send a message like that to people? Why shouldn't we hold people to a certain, basic standard of human behavior?
Just for the sake of the "never exclude anyone" social geek fallacy?
Quote from: RPGPundit"Kneejerk moralists"
Which is what you indeed are... and you should be well aware of that, so no point in telling you.
Quote from: jgantsWhich is actually worse in some ways, because it promotes the idea that people shouldn't bother to find the behavior unacceptable.
I (there should be You, very stupid typo) misunderstood my point... I've never said, that you have to accept everyone, if someone was playing maid in very sick sexual way at my table I would kick him out, because that's not accapteble at my table and I didn't forget to tell him so...
But at your home, behave as you wish as long as you aren't comiting any crimes.
Quote from: RPGPundit;257614Fuck it, you know what, I won't wait for Jong. Its on PAGE FUCKING TWO, Walker, you sack of shit. You call us "Kneejerk moralists" and compare us to the "Christian Right" on PAGE FUCKING TWO, because we took issue with Maid's underage-sex themes.
Hurry up, Smithers!
And don't forget the soft nutsack-polishing cloth!
Quote from: droog;257477When I hear the word 'culture', I reach for my revolver.
I still skip Yellow Submarine, though.
Ned
Quote from: Fritzs;257628I misunderstood my point...
Somehow, that doesn't surprise me at all.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Ned the Lonely Donkey;257632I still skip Yellow Submarine, though.
Pervert! Never darken my screen again!
Quote from: walkerp;257630Hurry up, Smithers!
And don't forget the soft nutsack-polishing cloth!
So you get called, on being the lying sack of shit that you are, and all you have left to fall back on is personal attacks?
Pretty sad, bitch.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Fritzs;257585Standarts of how to act are necessary for ones survival within society and for society to work. If you break them (for example you murder someone) you will be punished (jailed, executed). However I belive, that having standarts for "what should I imagine" or "what should I fap to" isn't necessary for you.
You can fap to whatever you like to in private, my friend. Just don't expect to talk about it in public without getting some flak.
This debate for me is not about a thought police style crushing of private thoughts I find vile. I object to such efforts on the practical grounds that it is both impossible and for the selfish reason that I fear that people would try to turn that power on my thoughts, in turn. What this is about is rejecting these elements as a community when they see the light of day.
Fap away all you want. Just don't expect us to cheer you on and validate your existence because you are a reject from the land of broken toys.
TGA
Quote from: Fritzs;257628I misunderstood my point... I've never said, that you have to accept everyone, if someone was playing maid in very sick sexual way at my table I would kick him out, because that's not accapteble at my table and I didn't forget to tell him so...
But at your home, behave as you wish as long as you aren't comiting any crimes.
Hang on - you're agreeing with the very first post i made to this thread. What the hell has been going on for the last 60 pages then?
Quote from: Fritzs;257628I misunderstood my point... I've never said, that you have to accept everyone, if someone was playing maid in very sick sexual way at my table I would kick him out, because that's not accapteble at my table and I didn't forget to tell him so...
But at your home, behave as you wish as long as you aren't comiting any crimes.
OK, I get what you are saying.
I still think its important to condemn the behavior in general in order to avoid having people think its condoned - both internally by gamers (so they don't head down that path, or don't start to think its OK to act out those impulses in real life) and externally by non-gamers (because let's face it, we're already have enough bad stereotypes, no need to pile on more).
Quote from: jgants;257619Why shouldn't we hold people to a certain, basic standard of human behavior?
Well, I don't want to get into the difficulties of figuring out what that certain, basic standard should be, but I will say this: even those who hold people to a certain, basic standard of behavior can decide that the certain, basic standard for fantasy/games might be different from that in reality. I think pretty much everyone here thinks you shouldn't kill people as a general rule, but not everyone thinks it's objectionable to do so in a roleplaying game.
Even in something like, say, boxing, there is a different expectation of behavior from those playing the game, and those not playing it. Now, obviously, punching people in the face [gloves or not] is not the same as raping babies, but the principle, I believe, applies to both.
Many people still think killing innocent people in a roleplaying game is evil, and shouldn't ever be done, but some people think it's harmless fun; those people who think killing innocents in a roleplaying game is okay do not necessarily believe that doing so is "promoting the killing of innocent people."
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;257639What this is about is rejecting these elements as a community when they see the light of day.
This
Quote from: Fritzs;257628I misunderstood my point... I've never said, that you have to accept everyone, if someone was playing maid in very sick sexual way at my table I would kick him out, because that's not accapteble at my table and I didn't forget to tell him so...
But at your home, behave as you wish as long as you aren't comiting any crimes.
So you actually agree with me. Glad we got that straighten out! ;)
TGA
Quote from: Fritzs;257628I misunderstood my point...
Then explain it to yourself.
Quote from: Engine;257643Many people still think killing innocent people in a roleplaying game is evil, and shouldn't ever be done, but some people think it's harmless fun; those people who think killing innocents in a roleplaying game is okay do not necessarily believe that doing so is "promoting the killing of innocent people."
You just described one of my players. Well, not that there's much killing of innocents in my games....but he is uncomfortable with make believe killing, generally.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;257639This debate for me is not about a thought police style crushing of private thoughts I find vile. I object to such efforts on the practical grounds that it is both impossible and for the selfish reason that I fear that people would try to turn that power on my thoughts, in turn. What this is about is rejecting these elements as a community when they see the light of day.
But what is the light of day? All we've got here are some AP reports which are tittilating at best. Now say I were to play Maid and one of the players pushed super hard for the pedophiliac stuff, then I'd be very nervous and consider at the very least checking up on him (like asking his friends what's his deal) and if I knew him maybe approaching him about it. So in that sense, I do agree that if we should address such an element (I don't see how "rejecting" it helps anyone) if it sees the light of day.
But I don't see any of that element here. We have some hipster indie authors taking a Japanese game, cutting out most of the extreme elements, and bringing it to our shores. Is there even a whiff of a real pedophile?
Quote from: David R;257648You just described one of my players. Well, not that there's much killing of innocents in my games....but he is uncomfortable with make believe killing, generally.
And until I came here, I really had no realistic expectation that people like this existed. I can't ever remember a player in our group that balked at performing in-character actions in-game that would be considered immoral out-of-game. But the first time this came up, there was a chorus of people who said, "No, my group doesn't ever kill anything but clearly evil monsters," which just blew me away. One of the greatest gifts this community has given me is an eye-opening perspective on how very very broad are the selections of playstyles out there, which I should have known, but had never really been confronted with.
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;257645So you actually agree with me. Glad we got that straighten out! ;)
TGA
He has agreed with just about everyone who refuted his argument.
Maybe he should try politics. Such flexibility could be a career plus. ;)
Quote from: Engine;257661And until I came here, I really had no realistic expectation that people like this existed. I can't ever remember a player in our group that balked at performing in-character actions in-game that would be considered immoral out-of-game. But the first time this came up, there was a chorus of people who said, "No, my group doesn't ever kill anything but clearly evil monsters," which just blew me away. One of the greatest gifts this community has given me is an eye-opening perspective on how very very broad are the selections of playstyles out there, which I should have known, but had never really been confronted with.
Yeah, it's all about who you play with.
While I'm very unreligious, I've played with a lot of strongly religious types over the years. A lot of them are very careful about maintaining the same level of morality in the games that they do in real life.
Quote from: walkerp;257630Hurry up, Smithers!
And don't forget the soft nutsack-polishing cloth!
Let me see...
- Walkerp wants to exterminate the human race.
- Walkerp doesn't mind pedophilia in games he likes.
- Walkerp falls back to homophobic insults when he runs out of rhetorical gas.
I hope you're just trying to achieve some kind of Golden Trifecta of Trolling. Is this some kind of competition that you, Dominus Nox and Mythusmage have?
Quote from: Engine;257661And until I came here, I really had no realistic expectation that people like this existed. I can't ever remember a player in our group that balked at performing in-character actions in-game that would be considered immoral out-of-game. But the first time this came up, there was a chorus of people who said, "No, my group doesn't ever kill anything but clearly evil monsters," which just blew me away. One of the greatest gifts this community has given me is an eye-opening perspective on how very very broad are the selections of playstyles out there, which I should have known, but had never really been confronted with.
The really interesting thing about this player is that because of his beliefs - he's a good* Muslim brother - he manages to create some of the most interesting, complex characters. Of course they are always the moral compass of the party, but that's not really a bad thing, considering the kind of games, we as a group are interested in.
*by "good" I mean not infected with the dogma, intolerence, hate and sense of superiority, that religious types seem to exhibit.Regards,
David R
Quote from: JongWK;257680Let me see...
- Walkerp wants to exterminate the human race.
- Walkerp doesn't mind pedophilia in games he likes.
- Walkerp falls back to homophobic insults when he runs out of rhetorical gas.
I hope you're just trying to achieve some kind of Golden Trifecta of Trolling. Is this some kind of competition that you, Dominus Nox and Mythusmage have?
In Walker's defense, he does actually talk about other things, I really wouldn't lump him in with Nox or Mythusmage.
Quote from: walkerp;257583Carcosa (from my understanding) has it as a part of the worst possible rituals a sorceror, who is not featured as a PC type anyways, can perform.
That is actually incorrect. The Sorceror class is explicitly a PC option. Just wanted to clear that up.
TGA
Quote from: JongWK;257680- Walkerp falls back to homophobic insults when he runs out of rhetorical gas.
I'm not attacking homosexuals, but rather toadying little sycophants who come yapping at their masters command.
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;257702That is actually incorrect. The Sorceror class is explicitly a PC option. Just wanted to clear that up.
Agreed. I didn't word that properly. My understanding is that you can play a sorceror, but the evil ones in power are not a primary choice for PCs in the way the supplement is structured.
Quote from: jgants;257570So when I get on here and see several of the main posters start saying "what's the big deal about games that promote pedophilia?", I really do think Pundit has a point. Because if that's where people want to take RPGs, or even just this message board, I'd just as soon find something else to do with my time.
Agreed wholeheartedly.
Well, hope everone noticed, that made wery funny typing error, of course, where I was answering jgants... there should be You misunderstood, not that I misunderstood, obviously.
Quote from: jeff37923"what's the big deal about games that promote pedophilia?"
I don't think, that Maid is promoting more pedophilia than your common maid anime.
Quote from: Fritzs;257611I don't think I have to admit I am decanent shitsack... I feel no need to play Maid or the like in sexual way... I just defend the right of perverts to play it as they wish.
So, you are not a decadent shitsack, but you defend the right of creepy gamers to be decadent shitsacks. I don't see much difference between the vacancy of social norms here.
Quote from: JongWK;257680Let me see...
- Walkerp wants to exterminate the human race.
- Walkerp doesn't mind pedophilia in games he likes.
- Walkerp falls back to homophobic insults when he runs out of rhetorical gas.
I hope you're just trying to achieve some kind of Golden Trifecta of Trolling. Is this some kind of competition that you, Dominus Nox and Mythusmage have?
You forgot:
- Walkerp supports internet piracy of games.
- Walkerp thinks Poison'd is in the same acceptable category as D&D.
- Walkerp has said that the only reason he posts here is for REVENGE!.
Quote from: Fritzs;257714I don't think, that Maid is promoting more pedophilia than your common maid anime.
Just how much is ok?
Quote from: Fritzs;257714I don't think, that Maid is promoting more pedophilia than your common maid anime.
Then you are either being willfully ignorant of the example of play in the book mentioned upthread or do not understand the consequences of a rule mechanic that allows you to seduce an underage girl.
Quote from: Fritzs;257712Well, hope everone noticed, that made wery funny typing error, of course, where I was answering jgants... there should be You misunderstood, not that I misunderstood, obviously.
That is unimportant in comparison to making certain you are skewered firmly for saying something people disagree with. Your "errors" are insignificant considerations compared to rhetorical victories which are utterly ancillary to the issue at hand. I mean,
duh.
Quote from: jeff37923;257727You forgot:
- Walkerp supports internet piracy of games.
- Walkerp thinks Poison'd is in the same acceptable category as D&D.
- Walkerp has said that the only reason he posts here is for REVENGE!.
Yes, at times I wonder if we shouldn't do some cleaning out of the Lawncrappers here, for that matter.
RPGPundit
Physician, heal thyself.
Quote from: walkerp;257703I'm not attacking homosexuals, but rather toadying little sycophants who come yapping at their masters command.
Self-projecting much, eh?
Quote from: jeff37923I don't see much difference between the vacancy of social norms here.
OK, once again.
You must not do bad stuff IRL. That's social norms
You can imagine yourself doing bad stuff, becuase no one has right to dictate what you should be allowed to think about.
You can share your imagination of bad stuff with willing people and on one should be allowed to dictate you what do you talk about with your friends.
You can write a book about bad stuff, someone should be able to put R on it's cover and you should inform everyone that it has "stuff you might not like" inside, but you should be allowed to publish it, because of "freedom of speech".
Quote from: jeff37923;257727Quote from: JongWK;257680Let me see...
- Walkerp wants to exterminate the human race.
- Walkerp doesn't mind pedophilia in games he likes.
- Walkerp falls back to homophobic insults when he runs out of rhetorical gas.
I hope you're just trying to achieve some kind of Golden Trifecta of Trolling. Is this some kind of competition that you, Dominus Nox and Mythusmage have?
You forgot:
- Walkerp supports internet piracy of games.
- Walkerp thinks Poison'd is in the same acceptable category as D&D.
- Walkerp has said that the only reason he posts here is for REVENGE!.
Ah, so it's Powerball then.
Quote from: RPGPundit;257739Yes, at times I wonder if we shouldn't do some cleaning out of the Lawncrappers here, for that matter.
Well then clear me out, motherfucker.
I guess we see how far your freedom of speech goes.
Quote from: RPGPundit;257739Yes, at times I wonder if we shouldn't do some cleaning out of the Lawncrappers here, for that matter.
RPGPundit
Why even say something like this ? Shall we list all the stupid things you have said before. I have said before, everyone on this forum has said before ? You want to fued with walkerp, go right ahead, but why the threat .
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David R;257783Why even say something like this ? Shall we list all the stupid things you have said before. I have said before, everyone on this forum has said before ? You want to fued with walkerp, go right ahead, but why the threat .
Agreed.
TGA
Quote from: David R;257783Why even say something like this ? Shall we list all the stupid things you have said before. I have said before, everyone on this forum has said before ? You want to fued with walkerp, go right ahead, but why the threat .
Regards,
David R
It hurts because it's true. :D
I object; I couldn't say something stupid if I tried. Oh, wait: I just did. ;)
Quote from: Engine;257895I object; I couldn't say something stupid if I tried. Oh, wait: I just did. ;)
And in post #666, no less. :)
Count me among the sinners who have said less than intelligent things at times. Apparently, I am in good company.
Quote from: David R;257783Why even say something like this ? Shall we list all the stupid things you have said before. I have said before, everyone on this forum has said before ? You want to fued with walkerp, go right ahead, but why the threat .
Regards,
David R
Yes, you're right that it was not the best thing to say, it was just an expression of frustration with the idiocy that these guys are expressing.
But you know, I've never said anything quite as idiotic as some of the things these guys have said here, on the maid thread, and on the Carcossa thread. Fritzs especially.
Nowhere fucking near.
Neither have most people on here.
RPGPundit
I find freedom of speech valuable for exactly that reason; it helps me pinpoint the douchebags quickly.
Not that anyone Pundit listed is necessarily a douchebag in my book.
Quote from: Fritzs;257763OK, once again.
You must not do bad stuff IRL. That's social norms
You can imagine yourself doing bad stuff, becuase no one has right to dictate what you should be allowed to think about.
You can share your imagination of bad stuff with willing people and on one should be allowed to dictate you what do you talk about with your friends.
You can write a book about bad stuff, someone should be able to put R on it's cover and you should inform everyone that it has "stuff you might not like" inside, but you should be allowed to publish it, because of "freedom of speech".
But who says we have to find any of the above acceptable?
Quote from: StormBringer;257938I find freedom of speech valuable for exactly that reason; it helps me pinpoint the douchebags quickly.
Bingo.
TGA
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;257965Bingo.
TGA
You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.