Quote from: Spike;1007617...And honestly? I can't think of much, if any, cyberpunk literature in which Racism was the big social anxiety being addressed...

The great Jack Womack deals with racism in his cyberpunk novels like Teraplane, Elvissey and Random Acts of Violence.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;1007636The actual cyberpunk tropes are also now just reassuring cliches rather than ideas that test out traditional sci-fi norms. So, yes, it's twee.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1007655Shadowrun nowadays is about as punk as my little pony.

I think one of the problems is that now certainly, and even by the time CP and SR came out, punk could be considered as punk as my little pony, if you felt like it. Think about it, for each of you (/us) when was punk 'cool' (if it ever was at all)? It was right when someone we were impressed with was doing it, and right before our loser brother or the guy down the block started wearing a leather jacket and Doc Martins and spiking their hair and goddamn it Todd, you just look like you are trying too hard!

Beyond that, a lot of the themes are, if not obsolete (actually probably more relevant than ever), but just old hat. We will eventually be run by huge corporations that are as powerful as governments and don't care about people? Yeah, that happened years ago, and we didn't even protest. Technology will connect us more, but make us feel more alone and alienated? That's the theme to bad sitcoms (and Transhumanism stole that theme, along with 'we will become our technology,' which: iphones). Urban decay? Robocop has nothing on real world Detroit. It's not that the themes of Cyberpunk literature have stopped being the things we worry about. It's just that we don't have to incase them in science fiction aesthetics anymore, because they've become the realm of just-barely-speculative fiction now. You don't need leather jackets or flying cars to tell the story of the guy who falls in love with his AI secretary, because now we make a movie staring Joaquin Phoenix, and Scarlett Johansson about it where true AIs is the only fantastic element (and it's already almost 5 years old).

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1007655Shadowrun nowadays is about as punk as my little pony.

Yeah it's pretty important to delineate which edition of Shadowrun is being discussed here.  The different line developers had different styles.  Mulvihill's Shadowrun ain't Weissman's Shadowrun ain't Hardy's Shadowrun .

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1007724I think one of the problems is that now certainly, and even by the time CP and SR came out, punk could be considered as punk as my little pony, if you felt like it. Think about it, for each of you (/us) when was punk 'cool' (if it ever was at all)? It was right when someone we were impressed with was doing it, and right before our loser brother or the guy down the block started wearing a leather jacket and Doc Martins and spiking their hair and goddamn it Todd, you just look like you are trying too hard!

Beyond that, a lot of the themes are, if not obsolete (actually probably more relevant than ever), but just old hat. We will eventually be run by huge corporations that are as powerful as governments and don't care about people? Yeah, that happened years ago, and we didn't even protest. Technology will connect us more, but make us feel more alone and alienated? That's the theme to bad sitcoms (and Transhumanism stole that theme, along with 'we will become our technology,' which: iphones). Urban decay? Robocop has nothing on real world Detroit. It's not that the themes of Cyberpunk literature have stopped being the things we worry about. It's just that we don't have to incase them in science fiction aesthetics anymore, because they've become the realm of just-barely-speculative fiction now. You don't need leather jackets or flying cars to tell the story of the guy who falls in love with his AI secretary, because now we make a movie staring Joaquin Phoenix, and Scarlett Johansson about it where true AIs is the only fantastic element (and it's already almost 5 years old).

That's not just a problem with Cyberpunk, it's science fiction in general.  Honestly, we've got a lot of technological advances that we didn't think of back then that is making it hard to actually do anything science fiction.  Cybernetics for example has been superseded for body part replacement, simply because it's easier to clone and runs the less risk of rejection.  We have contact lenses that give people their own HUD detailing their blood sugar levels for diabetics.

Hell, even movies are having a hard time to think of world shaking technological trends, simply because the future IS now.

What Cyberpunk2020 books describe the setting and it's social issues in more detail?

Quote from: Itachi;1007835What Cyberpunk2020 books describe the setting and it's social issues in more detail?

All of them.

Actually: The main book is just about as through as Shadowrun, they just put it in the back in timeline format, instead of in the front in Novelization Narration Format, saving space. The Land of the Free is pretty much NOTHING BUT setting for the USA and Home of the Brave both broadens the boarders and narrows the scope, focusing on the nomadic Nomads in the exurban spaces.   Night City Blues is nothing but, well, Night City, California.

Here's the thing: Most Cyberpunk books are setting books, or setting books crossed with Adventure books, with a handful of gadget-porn books... that often also include Setting in smaller, more personal details (such as fashion).

Honestly I'm pretty sure Pondsmith is a low-crunch, Rules Lite sort of GM/player. He didn't want to put more rules all over the place.   This seems really obvious when you realize the Fuzion Champions: New Millenium is literally half the page-count of an ICE Champions product (200 pages vs 386 for my third edition Deluxe...).

Well, when you define "cyberpunk" in such vague and fluffy terms, I guess even Harry Potter can be more Cyberpunk than cyberpunk itself.

Quote from: Itachi;1007835What Cyberpunk2020 books describe the setting and it's social issues in more detail?

Near Orbit and Deep Space both describe settings with lots of fluff so that not only do you have rules, but you also get the feel that it is an actual cultural area.

Do you know anything about Cyberpunk 2020?

Quote from: jeff37923;1007855Do you know anything about Cyberpunk 2020?

What have you read of 2nd and 3rd Edition Shadowrun?

Quote from: CRKrueger;1007909What have you read of 2nd and 3rd Edition Shadowrun?

Touche.

Quote from: jeff37923;1007855Do you know anything about Cyberpunk 2020?

Quote from: CRKrueger;1007909What have you read of 2nd and 3rd Edition Shadowrun?

I did.  Both of them, and you know what I noticed in the books?  Scope.

Cyberpunk 20202 typically focused on small, personal situations, or a single city, whereas Shadowrun gave a wide overview of politics first.

So CP2020 started small and tried to go big (With mixed success, the British and Eastern books were mostly crap), while Shadowrun went big and then tried to narrow itself down to places like Seattle, Denver and the like, but usually ended up focusing at the national to state level,

Quote from: Itachi;1007597The talk in the other thread got me thinking. I've read once that cyberpunk as a genre is the projection of our anxieties and fears as a society. If that's so, could we say Shadowrun, for all its fantasy trappings, is a better example of cyberpunk than Cyberpunk 2020 and most other games in the genre?

Definitely not, and I have a hard time trying to understand the logic behind even suggesting so.
Unless you think racism is THE societal fear, in which case, maybe.

Quote from: jeff37923;1007855Do you know anything about Cyberpunk 2020?

Ive read the corebook, Night City and a couple chromebooks.

Quote from: Itachi;1007938Ive read the corebook, Night City and a couple chromebooks.

That's useful information. Some games play/seem vastly different depending on whether you are playing core-only or all-the-expansions (or somewhere between, which will inherently depend on which books you use).