TheRPGSite

The talk in the other thread got me thinking. I've read once that cyberpunk as a genre is the projection of our anxieties and fears as a society. If that's so, could we say Shadowrun, for all its fantasy trappings, is a better example of cyberpunk than Cyberpunk 2020 and most other games in the genre?

Maybe I've not read the right sourcebooks for CP2020 but it always seemed to me too focused on the punk attitude and style and boobs and chrome while forgetting to deal with the society "anxieties". While Shadowrun is full of those, from the way megacorps are depicted in it's workings and exploitations or society and environment, the metahuman racial violence/prejudice (Humanis anyone?) to issues of urban security/organization (arcologies, enclaves, anarchist states), individual liberty (SINners vs SINless), etc. Even the central premise of shadowrunners tells something about corporate culture using human beings as disposable tools.

Thoughts?

I always thought so. I never really bought into Cyberpunk, either the original 2013 or 2020 versions. It seemed more like they watched Bubblegum Crisis and ripped it off.

Shadowrun, though a completely ridiculous premise (though I do remember that Mayan calender stuff being big), seemed to be more real. More coherent, believable universe, despite the magic and tolkien races. Maybe it helped that it had so many novels.

My problem with CP2020 is how implausible the setup is compared to how history worked itself out over the covered time period. But, in a box, with itself, I think it has all the same glam and polish and focus on gangs/crime/greed that any self-respecting CP game should have.

Even when I ran it back in the day, I modified the history. I modified society a little. I would draw from imagery like Judge Dredd, Kult, Demolition Man. I changed out "how we got here" to be more "plausible" in my mind. But the attitude was the same.

I feel like Shadowrun has the added racial tension aspect without drawing directly on real-world paradigms. I think it gives you some wiggle-room to explore those themes without punching you right in nuts (or equivalent...). I also like supernatural elements in my games, do I sprinkled some of that into my CP2020 anyways; SR made provided some inspiration there.

The main issue you speak to above - a projection of our anxieties and fears as a society - is something that will realistically change with each passing decade (at least). I mean, had I wrote a cyberpunk game at the end of the Obama administration, it would feel somewhat dated already with the speed/nature of current events. :-D

Instead of comparing a cyberpunk settings to plausible current events, it would probably be better to take it in as a whole, unto itself. Ignore our current anxieties/fears and fully embrace the ones the author put front and center. I always found that difficult. I really wanted people to get immersed in the "relatable" suck, and then fight against it. Or just survive despite it. I never really embraced the whole "Rock and Roll will save the world" themes that CP played up. I've been ignoring the backdrop of CP for so long in lieu of my own creations I just assumed everyone did the same. :D

Quote from: trechriron;1007606I also like supernatural elements in my games, do I sprinkled some of that into my CP2020 anyways; SR made provided some inspiration there.

If you havent allready then have a look at Nights Edge. It was a setting book and some adventures for CP2020 that added supernatural threats. Really well done and some of the adventures are pretty good.

As for CP vs SR. Its a matter of how you play them and how much of the setting from either you keep or jettison.
Id say about 75% or more of the SR sessions Ive played in have had the supernatural elements toned down. Its there, but much more in the background which gives SR a much more cyberpunk feel. As for CP2020. Like SR its a very broad setting allowing for all manner of styles and approaches from the entertainment sector to the crime to the law enforcement to the corporate to whatever you want.

Wait... if I'm reading this right you are saying that Cyberpunk is less 'cyberpunk' than Shadowrun because of Racism?

Maybe... just maybe... Mike Pondsmith (a black guy, which is only relevant because of your weird thesis there), at least in the late 80's and early 90's, didn't think that Racial Anxiety was one of the big social anxieties of the day?   And honestly? I can't think of much, if any, cyberpunk literature in which Racism was the big social anxiety being addressed.

Lets look at your other social anxieties then.

Corporations run Amok*:  By The Gods! Cyberpunk 2020 HAS THEM!  The Military has been replaced by private contractor megacorporations like Militech! (or Arasaka, if you are in Japan and a number of third world nations). The Government practically doesn't exist! Admittedly, CP2020 doesn't quite go Full Robocop regarding police, the way Shadowrun does, but that seems an awfully small hill to die on.

The Environment:  Admittedly, unlike you (OP), I HAVE Read All THe Sourcebooks, so oddly I can't say that the main book does or doesn't deal with this per se, but Yes, Virginia, Environmental Destruction is very much a part of the CP2020 setting.  While you don't so much have food riots (or at least not as hyped as Shadowrun), toxic waste dumps and murdering of Nomad Clans camped on Illegal Dump Sites (See Corporations above!) is very much part of the setting.

Arcologies: Got 'em.

Sinners vs Sinless: Well, not in those terms, but what the fuck do you think Nomads are? The dispossessed 'unpersons', scavenging their own way across a practically post-apocalyptic wasteland, exploited by the Corporations.  The constant dehumanizing of hte bottom of society is just as much a theme in CP2020, perhaps moreso given the excessive emphasis on people as consumer units (Style vs Substance).

Shadowrunners: THis one is just silly. The concept of Shadowrunners/Running is nothing more than putting a lable on "Player Characters". Cyberpunk 2020 has Shadowrunning, they just don't call it that, or really much of anything, which arguably makes it more realistic than 'Shadowrun'.

Quote from: ItachiIs Shadowrun more "cyberpunk" than Cyberpunk 2020 ?

Not only "no", but "fuck no".

Quote from: Spike;1007617Wait... if I'm reading this right you are saying that Cyberpunk is less 'cyberpunk' than Shadowrun because of Racism?

Maybe... just maybe...

Nope, that's not what I was shooting for. I was just discussing. I think SR played to that more so than CP is all. I believe some might consider that an easier entry point into the gang warfare angle than assuming real-world racial tensions, but both could equally handle it. I think CP2020 made some assumptions about what you brought into the game, where SR had some burden to "re-educate" you on a fantastical setting.

I like both games for different reasons, and I ran WAY more CP2020 than I ever did SR. :D

Omega - I loved the Nights Edge books, some wonderful dark horror stuff. Seriously inspired me when I found those at Nybbles and Bytes in Tacoma...

Quote from: trechriron;1007628Nope, that's not what I was shooting for.

I was addressing the OP, not you, man.

I don't recall ever seeing Nibbles and Bytes. I spent my time at the Matrix or.....  that one store that set up by the movie theater for a couple years.

But then, I wasn't a native.

To me, Shadowrun is a rather safe, almost twee representation of the cyberpunk genre. It's not just the addition of Tolkienesque fantasy, but also the very tropes within the game are designed to be familiar, rather than transgressive and iconoclastic.

Cyberpunk itself hasn't really aged well as a game, but then it hasn't been updated half as many times as Shadowrun has. The longtime wait for the mooted Cyberpunk 2077 would do something about that, but until it does, Shadowrun will remain the big seller in the hobby without much challenge. That said, I prefer Judge Dredd....

Twee... as in "excessively or affectedly quaint, pretty, or sentimental" or "affectedly or excessively dainty, delicate, cute, or quaint"?

That's one I never would have seen coming.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1007633Twee... as in "excessively or affectedly quaint, pretty, or sentimental" or "affectedly or excessively dainty, delicate, cute, or quaint"?

That's one I never would have seen coming.

Absolutely it is. Shadowrun sells because it has pretty art and appeals in a quaint, sentimental way towards safe fantasy tropes. The actual cyberpunk tropes are also now just reassuring cliches rather than ideas that test out traditional sci-fi norms. So, yes, it's twee.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;1007636Shadowrun sells because it has pretty art and appeals in a quaint, sentimental way towards safe fantasy tropes.

Huh, having a huge art budget and marketed by FASA, Microsoft and other companies with money to get artists like Elmore and Tim Bradstreet had nothing to with it I guess. :rolleyes:

Bradstreet art pretty...yeah that...well, speaks for itself.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;1007636The actual cyberpunk tropes are also now just reassuring cliches rather than ideas that test out traditional sci-fi norms.

Meaning what?  You're one of those that thinks Cyberpunk is "over" because iPhones?

Edit: You could be talking about Catalyst Shadowrun I guess.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1007638Meaning what?  You're one of those that thinks Cyberpunk is "over" because iPhones?

No, the opposite actually. But Shadowrun doesn't provide any of this, just clings to tropes that are 30 years old already. If you want ideas that are more contemporary and 'edgy' you wouldn't go looking to Shadowrun for them.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;1007639No, the opposite actually. But Shadowrun doesn't provide any of this, just clings to tropes that are 30 years old already. If you want ideas that are more contemporary and 'edgy' you wouldn't go looking to Shadowrun for them.

They had an adventure in 4e IIRC that touched on some Transhuman themes like body swapping. But generally, I agree. It's a lot more about kicking the shit out of stuff and getting paid. In The Dark Future(tm).

Quote from: trechriron;1007643They had an adventure in 4e IIRC that touched on some Transhuman themes like body swapping. But generally, I agree. It's a lot more about kicking the shit out of stuff and getting paid. In The Dark Future(tm).

Pretty sure 5th edition shitcanned the transhuman themes entirely. Hell, half of the new fluff was meant to roll the feel of the game back 3 editions.

Shadowrun nowadays is about as punk as my little pony.

Quote from: Spike;1007617...And honestly? I can't think of much, if any, cyberpunk literature in which Racism was the big social anxiety being addressed...

The great Jack Womack deals with racism in his cyberpunk novels like Teraplane, Elvissey and Random Acts of Violence.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;1007636The actual cyberpunk tropes are also now just reassuring cliches rather than ideas that test out traditional sci-fi norms. So, yes, it's twee.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1007655Shadowrun nowadays is about as punk as my little pony.

I think one of the problems is that now certainly, and even by the time CP and SR came out, punk could be considered as punk as my little pony, if you felt like it. Think about it, for each of you (/us) when was punk 'cool' (if it ever was at all)? It was right when someone we were impressed with was doing it, and right before our loser brother or the guy down the block started wearing a leather jacket and Doc Martins and spiking their hair and goddamn it Todd, you just look like you are trying too hard!:p

Beyond that, a lot of the themes are, if not obsolete (actually probably more relevant than ever), but just old hat. We will eventually be run by huge corporations that are as powerful as governments and don't care about people? Yeah, that happened years ago, and we didn't even protest. Technology will connect us more, but make us feel more alone and alienated? That's the theme to bad sitcoms (and Transhumanism stole that theme, along with 'we will become our technology,' which: iphones). Urban decay? Robocop has nothing on real world Detroit. It's not that the themes of Cyberpunk literature have stopped being the things we worry about. It's just that we don't have to incase them in science fiction aesthetics anymore, because they've become the realm of just-barely-speculative fiction now. You don't need leather jackets or flying cars to tell the story of the guy who falls in love with his AI secretary, because now we make a movie staring Joaquin Phoenix, and Scarlett Johansson about it where true AIs is the only fantastic element (and it's already almost 5 years old).

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1007655Shadowrun nowadays is about as punk as my little pony.

Yeah it's pretty important to delineate which edition of Shadowrun is being discussed here.  The different line developers had different styles.  Mulvihill's Shadowrun ain't Weissman's Shadowrun ain't Hardy's Shadowrun .

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1007724I think one of the problems is that now certainly, and even by the time CP and SR came out, punk could be considered as punk as my little pony, if you felt like it. Think about it, for each of you (/us) when was punk 'cool' (if it ever was at all)? It was right when someone we were impressed with was doing it, and right before our loser brother or the guy down the block started wearing a leather jacket and Doc Martins and spiking their hair and goddamn it Todd, you just look like you are trying too hard!:p

Beyond that, a lot of the themes are, if not obsolete (actually probably more relevant than ever), but just old hat. We will eventually be run by huge corporations that are as powerful as governments and don't care about people? Yeah, that happened years ago, and we didn't even protest. Technology will connect us more, but make us feel more alone and alienated? That's the theme to bad sitcoms (and Transhumanism stole that theme, along with 'we will become our technology,' which: iphones). Urban decay? Robocop has nothing on real world Detroit. It's not that the themes of Cyberpunk literature have stopped being the things we worry about. It's just that we don't have to incase them in science fiction aesthetics anymore, because they've become the realm of just-barely-speculative fiction now. You don't need leather jackets or flying cars to tell the story of the guy who falls in love with his AI secretary, because now we make a movie staring Joaquin Phoenix, and Scarlett Johansson about it where true AIs is the only fantastic element (and it's already almost 5 years old).

That's not just a problem with Cyberpunk, it's science fiction in general.  Honestly, we've got a lot of technological advances that we didn't think of back then that is making it hard to actually do anything science fiction.  Cybernetics for example has been superseded for body part replacement, simply because it's easier to clone and runs the less risk of rejection.  We have contact lenses that give people their own HUD detailing their blood sugar levels for diabetics.

Hell, even movies are having a hard time to think of world shaking technological trends, simply because the future IS now.

What Cyberpunk2020 books describe the setting and it's social issues in more detail?

Quote from: Itachi;1007835What Cyberpunk2020 books describe the setting and it's social issues in more detail?

All of them.

Actually: The main book is just about as through as Shadowrun, they just put it in the back in timeline format, instead of in the front in Novelization Narration Format, saving space. The Land of the Free is pretty much NOTHING BUT setting for the USA and Home of the Brave both broadens the boarders and narrows the scope, focusing on the nomadic Nomads in the exurban spaces.   Night City Blues is nothing but, well, Night City, California.

Here's the thing: Most Cyberpunk books are setting books, or setting books crossed with Adventure books, with a handful of gadget-porn books... that often also include Setting in smaller, more personal details (such as fashion).

Honestly I'm pretty sure Pondsmith is a low-crunch, Rules Lite sort of GM/player. He didn't want to put more rules all over the place.   This seems really obvious when you realize the Fuzion Champions: New Millenium is literally half the page-count of an ICE Champions product (200 pages vs 386 for my third edition Deluxe...).

Well, when you define "cyberpunk" in such vague and fluffy terms, I guess even Harry Potter can be more Cyberpunk than cyberpunk itself.

Quote from: Itachi;1007835What Cyberpunk2020 books describe the setting and it's social issues in more detail?

Near Orbit and Deep Space both describe settings with lots of fluff so that not only do you have rules, but you also get the feel that it is an actual cultural area.

Do you know anything about Cyberpunk 2020?

Quote from: jeff37923;1007855Do you know anything about Cyberpunk 2020?

What have you read of 2nd and 3rd Edition Shadowrun?

Quote from: CRKrueger;1007909What have you read of 2nd and 3rd Edition Shadowrun?

Touche.

Quote from: jeff37923;1007855Do you know anything about Cyberpunk 2020?

Quote from: CRKrueger;1007909What have you read of 2nd and 3rd Edition Shadowrun?

I did.  Both of them, and you know what I noticed in the books?  Scope.

Cyberpunk 20202 typically focused on small, personal situations, or a single city, whereas Shadowrun gave a wide overview of politics first.

So CP2020 started small and tried to go big (With mixed success, the British and Eastern books were mostly crap), while Shadowrun went big and then tried to narrow itself down to places like Seattle, Denver and the like, but usually ended up focusing at the national to state level,

Quote from: Itachi;1007597The talk in the other thread got me thinking. I've read once that cyberpunk as a genre is the projection of our anxieties and fears as a society. If that's so, could we say Shadowrun, for all its fantasy trappings, is a better example of cyberpunk than Cyberpunk 2020 and most other games in the genre?

Definitely not, and I have a hard time trying to understand the logic behind even suggesting so.
Unless you think racism is THE societal fear, in which case, maybe.

Quote from: jeff37923;1007855Do you know anything about Cyberpunk 2020?

Ive read the corebook, Night City and a couple chromebooks.

Quote from: Itachi;1007938Ive read the corebook, Night City and a couple chromebooks.

That's useful information. Some games play/seem vastly different depending on whether you are playing core-only or all-the-expansions (or somewhere between, which will inherently depend on which books you use).

Folks, thanks for the books indications for CP2020 setting details. I will take a look at them.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1007943That's useful information. Some games play/seem vastly different depending on whether you are playing core-only or all-the-expansions (or somewhere between, which will inherently depend on which books you use).

Agreed!

Quote from: JeremyR;1007603I always thought so. I never really bought into Cyberpunk, either the original 2013 or 2020 versions. It seemed more like they watched Bubblegum Crisis and ripped it off.

Shadowrun, though a completely ridiculous premise (though I do remember that Mayan calender stuff being big), seemed to be more real. More coherent, believable universe, despite the magic and tolkien races. Maybe it helped that it had so many novels.

Emphasis mine. That's the weird thing about Shadowrun. It's central premise is almost tongue-in-cheek ridiculous but it's execution feels very real and verosslimile, as you say. The national tensions in Treaty of Denver that made the city almost WW2 Berlin-like, the rise of amerindians from reservations and the culture clash that issued, the night of rage and racial violence, the corporate council fucking up the world (and themselves), etc. It's like this setting is just 2 minutes from us, it's very relatable, very... human? While CP2020 always sounded so "out there" to me with it's points of light urban enclaves surrounded by toxic wastelands everywhere. Maybe I expressed myself badly in the OP. Maybe the quality I see in Shadowrun has nothing to do with the cyberpunk genre, but with our own world, how approachable it feels from our reality.

Then maybe CP2020 also has these qualities and I just didn't read the right books. Who knows. I will try to rectify this up to the weekend. It will be a fun exercise.

Quote from: Itachi;1007835What Cyberpunk2020 books describe the setting and it's social issues in more detail?

Hands down, "Home of the Brave" - the America sourcebook. Arguably, 80% of the book is fluff describing in detail the history of America and how it operates in 2020, including details on how the government really works, and how each strata of society operates. In terms of running CP2020 - I consider this book indispensable. It gets down to the nitty-gritty economics of what average people can expect and you adjust your game accordingly. There are nice rules for creating military characters, lots of little mechanical side-bars, but for a GM wanting a good snapshot of how fuuucked up America is - this is it.

Edit: I would also include - for street-level stuff- 'Wildside' the Fixer book and 'Serve and Protect' the Cop book as bookends. This way you understand exactly how crime cartels/gangs/organizations operate and what law-enforcement will bring to the table. Both extremely useful  for fleshing out your game.

As a side-note: I'd recommend giving a look at Interface-Zero 2.0 for a REALLY well done modern cyberpunk setting that is a wealth of material to be mined or used straight up.


Edit 2: if anyone cares - CP2020 is cyberpunk. Shadowrun is cyberpunk with magic. What makes something "cyberpunk" is up to the GM enforcing their ideas of cyberpunk onto the game. The question I always have - is does magic in Shadowrun inherently make it *more* cyberpunk? My answer is no. It's just a conceit of the game shoe-horned, however well done, into the genre. I'm of the opinion that GM's affect genre fidelity far more than any particular rule-set GENERALLY.

Quote from: tenbones;1007965Edit 2: if anyone cares - CP2020 is cyberpunk. Shadowrun is cyberpunk with magic. What makes something "cyberpunk" is up to the GM enforcing their ideas of cyberpunk onto the game. The question I always have - is does magic in Shadowrun inherently make it *more* cyberpunk? My answer is no. It's just a conceit of the game shoe-horned, however well done, into the genre. I'm of the opinion that GM's affect genre fidelity far more than any particular rule-set GENERALLY.

If Shadowrun is cyberpunk with magic, then Dark Sun is cyberpunk with magic and psionics replacing technology.

Quote from: jeff37923;1007984If Shadowrun is cyberpunk with magic, then Dark Sun is cyberpunk with magic and psionics replacing technology.

OK. Agreed.

Quote from: jeff37923;1007984If Shadowrun is cyberpunk with magic, then Dark Sun is Shadowrun with magic and psionics replacing technology.

Corrected.

Quote from: tenbones;1007996Corrected.

As a game, I agree. As a genre, I disagree.

Cyberpunk 2020 with magic/supernatural is Night's Edge with its Lovecraftian overtones.

With Cyberpunk 2020 predating Political Correctness, and Pondsmith's lack of racial hangups or animosity, I feel CP2020 has a sort of innocence or naivete about it that makes the setting rather preferable to the real world of 2017. It has a really strong '80s vibe (even more than Neuromancer) - it's a dystopian vision but written in a better time and place. A bit like Streets of Fire, it's fundamentally optimistic.

The thing about Shadowrun that makes it good Cyberpunk and even better science fiction is, ironically, the fantasy elements because they function similarly to the alien elements in Star Trek.  They serve as metaphor, as masks that both, because they are superficially inhuman and fantastic, let Shadowrun cut deeper in the social commentary and exploration of the technological impact, and escape the charge of proselytizing and preaching because of the cover the fantasy element provides.

Quote from: S'mon;1008013With Cyberpunk 2020 predating Political Correctness, and Pondsmith's lack of racial hangups or animosity, I feel CP2020 has a sort of innocence or naivete about it that makes the setting rather preferable to the real world of 2017. It has a really strong '80s vibe (even more than Neuromancer) - it's a dystopian vision but written in a better time and place. A bit like Streets of Fire, it's fundamentally optimistic.

This thread merely highlights the dystopian reality that is 2017. We're so fucked.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1008023The thing about Shadowrun that makes it good Cyberpunk and even better science fiction is, ironically, the fantasy elements because they function similarly to the alien elements in Star Trek.  They serve as metaphor, as masks that both, because they are superficially inhuman and fantastic, let Shadowrun cut deeper in the social commentary and exploration of the technological impact, and escape the charge of proselytizing and preaching because of the cover the fantasy element provides.

I'm working on digesting this, but I'm having a hard time. Could you give me an example of this in Shadowrun?

Quote from: jeff37923;1008029I'm working on digesting this, but I'm having a hard time. Could you give me an example of this in Shadowrun?

At a guess:  taking the fantastic elements as proxies for real world problems allows discussions of said real world problems without being quite so pointed and hurty to people sensitive about issues.  So by talking about Humanis Policlubs (racist against Elves and Trolls and shit) vs talking about the Ku Klux Klan (racist against black people), you can have a theoretically more nuanced conversation than you could if you just talked about the KKK.

I think that one problem with this theory is that in Star Trek they generally WERE talking about taboo subjects at the time, genuninely controversial positions regarding racism, while in Shadowrun you can just swap out the Humanis Policlub for the KKK and nothing is lost or gained for 99% of the game buying public.

But that's my guess about what he meant, plus my commentary on it.

Perhaps we need to define WHAT is cyberpunk before drawing battle lines between the two games.

I am currently re-reading Neuromancer and working on cyberRPG so this topic is very interesting.

Quote from: S'mon;1008013A bit like Streets of Fire, it's fundamentally optimistic.

I loved that movie!

[video=youtube;wCIrPJ6SBl4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCIrPJ6SBl4[/youtube]

Quote from: Itachi;1007597The talk in the other thread got me thinking. I've read once that cyberpunk as a genre is the projection of our anxieties and fears as a society. If that's so, could we say Shadowrun, for all its fantasy trappings, is a better example of cyberpunk than Cyberpunk 2020 and most other games in the genre?

Maybe I've not read the right sourcebooks for CP2020 but it always seemed to me too focused on the punk attitude and style and boobs and chrome while forgetting to deal with the society "anxieties". While Shadowrun is full of those, from the way megacorps are depicted in it's workings and exploitations or society and environment, the metahuman racial violence/prejudice (Humanis anyone?) to issues of urban security/organization (arcologies, enclaves, anarchist states), individual liberty (SINners vs SINless), etc. Even the central premise of shadowrunners tells something about corporate culture using human beings as disposable tools.

Thoughts?

Shadowrun is sick. 5th ed is a really great edition to be picking up. First real intro to it was skimming 4th ed at an friend's game to understand what the fuck was going on and... did not really like the book all that much. And believe me, I've got a knack for quality games and GM'ing them with even more quality too (fuck, 'don't have to believe me, the proof is right there in my fucking sig!). 4th just on instinct read as "broken to shit". 5th has got some shitty coverage of some of the more interesting concepts like Technomancers and The World Outside Seattle (tm) but honestly, shit reads right and the engine powering the system serves the granular nature of what it's trying to achieve well (some asshat did a crappy review complaining about the math because he doesn't like mental math -- I've seriously never understood that position).

Anyway, Market Panic is one of the best supplements you'll find for any game series. I read that shit like a storybook (which it really was) and what it really gets is that, yeah, there's fears and that, yeah, there's so much dystopian bullshit going on. But the beauty of it is that it really gets across "humanity is still here, we're still dominating, we're getting ours and we always will". Cyberpunk stops being cyberpunk when it gets bogged down in the "the world is shit and everyone is wired, missing an eye, a slave to the corps, scared of 'rent calls' from local gang and can't go anywhere without being heavily armed". This is something which WH40K, containing significant elements of the genre, suffers severely from and I can't say many settings other than Shadowrun avoid this. There's still real shit going on in that world, real stories being told. That doesn't happen naturally in many other games so, to its credit, Shadowrun deserves its place as cyberpunk done right -- and managing to do so while injecting copious fantasy elements in there too!

Quote from: Spike;1007617Wait... if I'm reading this right you are saying that Cyberpunk is less 'cyberpunk' than Shadowrun because of Racism?

Maybe... just maybe... Mike Pondsmith (a black guy, which is only relevant because of your weird thesis there), at least in the late 80's and early 90's, didn't think that Racial Anxiety was one of the big social anxieties of the day?   And honestly? I can't think of much, if any, cyberpunk literature in which Racism was the big social anxiety being addressed.

Lets look at your other social anxieties then.

Corporations run Amok*:  By The Gods! Cyberpunk 2020 HAS THEM!  The Military has been replaced by private contractor megacorporations like Militech! (or Arasaka, if you are in Japan and a number of third world nations). The Government practically doesn't exist! Admittedly, CP2020 doesn't quite go Full Robocop regarding police, the way Shadowrun does, but that seems an awfully small hill to die on.

The Environment:  Admittedly, unlike you (OP), I HAVE Read All THe Sourcebooks, so oddly I can't say that the main book does or doesn't deal with this per se, but Yes, Virginia, Environmental Destruction is very much a part of the CP2020 setting.  While you don't so much have food riots (or at least not as hyped as Shadowrun), toxic waste dumps and murdering of Nomad Clans camped on Illegal Dump Sites (See Corporations above!) is very much part of the setting.

Arcologies: Got 'em.

Sinners vs Sinless: Well, not in those terms, but what the fuck do you think Nomads are? The dispossessed 'unpersons', scavenging their own way across a practically post-apocalyptic wasteland, exploited by the Corporations.  The constant dehumanizing of hte bottom of society is just as much a theme in CP2020, perhaps moreso given the excessive emphasis on people as consumer units (Style vs Substance).

Shadowrunners: THis one is just silly. The concept of Shadowrunners/Running is nothing more than putting a lable on "Player Characters". Cyberpunk 2020 has Shadowrunning, they just don't call it that, or really much of anything, which arguably makes it more realistic than 'Shadowrun'.

The butthurt attitude in your post does it a disservice when some of what you've written is pretty legit.

Your bit on racism is stupid because cyberpunk is a pretty white subgenre. It deals extensively with the (in their minds) existential threat to the white man's existence in a world where everything  has gone to shit (which doesn't really matter here) and the yellow people have taken over and now dominate their lives. That's pretty integral to the subgenre. It's a very caucasian look at the world.

SINless are in the system just not officially. Near majority of the world is SINless -- something like 20, maybe -- very generously -- 30% max of the world is recognized (not including Criminal SINers which is far worse than just being plain SINless) and even in that decidedly minor population, only about less 5% are full Corporate SINers. That's maybe less than half a billion (and probably much lower, considering much of the world is nuclear/toxic/magical wasteland). Still, the vast majority of people are based out of sprawls, megacities, arcologies and enclaves. Even the Syndicate computer game reboot touches on this right in its intro because its so integral to understanding that, even though the population count is just ridicuously high, nomads aren't really a thing anymore. That's an aspect 2020 really fucked up.

Police aren't at all Robocop-ish in Shadowrun. Really, they're pretty apathetic unless it's something their employer cares about. They're just the cyberpunk equivalent of a noble house guard retinue. Albeit way more ridiculously armed than even Boddicker could ever dream of. That's where that "police are just another gang" really kicks in for me. Other than that, you're on point with the rest of that part.

Quote from: Omega;1007616If you havent allready then have a look at Nights Edge. It was a setting book and some adventures for CP2020 that added supernatural threats. Really well done and some of the adventures are pretty good.

As for CP vs SR. Its a matter of how you play them and how much of the setting from either you keep or jettison.
Id say about 75% or more of the SR sessions Ive played in have had the supernatural elements toned down. Its there, but much more in the background which gives SR a much more cyberpunk feel. As for CP2020. Like SR its a very broad setting allowing for all manner of styles and approaches from the entertainment sector to the crime to the law enforcement to the corporate to whatever you want.

Punk is the name of the game for 2020. Shadowrun, in all honesty, is dark sci-fi and dark fantasy and punk is just an aesthetic, if even that. 2020 eschews DIY-ethos for stylistic excess. Shadowrun really nails living life for people in the world where 2020 is just built from movie scenes. Both of them are guilty of non-purist bullshit.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;1007632To me, Shadowrun is a rather safe, almost twee representation of the cyberpunk genre. It's not just the addition of Tolkienesque fantasy, but also the very tropes within the game are designed to be familiar, rather than transgressive and iconoclastic.

Cyberpunk itself hasn't really aged well as a game, but then it hasn't been updated half as many times as Shadowrun has. The longtime wait for the mooted Cyberpunk 2077 would do something about that, but until it does, Shadowrun will remain the big seller in the hobby without much challenge. That said, I prefer Judge Dredd....

Judge Dredd America graphic novel was spectacular. It made the setting and character for me (and I really shouldn't have been reading the age I was) but everything else is a let down. Seriously. But then, I'm a picky bastard with excellent taste so whatever...

You're totally right on the aging part. I'm not into the 80's aesthetic even though it's still quite a popular throwback. The 90's is where it's at and honestly, shit's more relevant for cyberpunk in a modern setting because it was a watershed time in recent human -- at least, developed world -- history and, as we now know, was leading to very dark times ahead with the foundations laid violently and brutally (#civilwarmadness #newequalitygap) in-between the awesome explosion of culture, diversity and tech world over

Also, you really used the word twee. I'm just mad you used that word, hah hah.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1007633Twee... as in "excessively or affectedly quaint, pretty, or sentimental" or "affectedly or excessively dainty, delicate, cute, or quaint"?

That's one I never would have seen coming.

Forum peeps still use verisimilitude and fiat like they actually mean what they think they mean.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;1007636Absolutely it is. Shadowrun sells because it has pretty art and appeals in a quaint, sentimental way towards safe fantasy tropes. The actual cyberpunk tropes are also now just reassuring cliches rather than ideas that test out traditional sci-fi norms. So, yes, it's twee.

It has a lot of ugly or passable art from what I've seen. That said, focusing on neo-apartheid ideologues and iconoclastic body dysmorphia in art isn't really something you're going to see people want test -- even though, that is exactly what punk is now and its way darker and really not #surburbanpurgatoryreaction like it used to be.

Seriously, even Eclipse Phase stays in comparatively comfortable transgender-norm turf because you can sell that and people can escape.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1007638Huh, having a huge art budget and marketed by FASA, Microsoft and other companies with money to get artists like Elmore and Tim Bradstreet had nothing to with it I guess. :rolleyes:

Bradstreet art pretty...yeah that...well, speaks for itself.

Meaning what?  You're one of those that thinks Cyberpunk is "over" because iPhones?

Edit: You could be talking about Catalyst Shadowrun I guess.

DUDDDDDEEEEEEE... I had no idea that dude was the art dude.

Bradstreet is Vampire. That artwork tho'...

NERD BONER!

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1007655Pretty sure 5th edition shitcanned the transhuman themes entirely. Hell, half of the new fluff was meant to roll the feel of the game back 3 editions.

Shadowrun nowadays is about as punk as my little pony.

Interesting. I did note there was very little transhuman elements in the book. Caught some in the above-mentioned supplement too but it was like a couple lines of dialogue in one of the flavor texts for -- if I remember right -- EVO.

Quote from: KingCheops;1007766Yeah it's pretty important to delineate which edition of Shadowrun is being discussed here.  The different line developers had different styles.  Mulvihill's Shadowrun ain't Weissman's Shadowrun ain't Hardy's Shadowrun .

Whoever did 5th Ed is the Shadowrun I like.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1007834That's not just a problem with Cyberpunk, it's science fiction in general.  Honestly, we've got a lot of technological advances that we didn't think of back then that is making it hard to actually do anything science fiction.  Cybernetics for example has been superseded for body part replacement, simply because it's easier to clone and runs the less risk of rejection.  We have contact lenses that give people their own HUD detailing their blood sugar levels for diabetics.

Hell, even movies are having a hard time to think of world shaking technological trends, simply because the future IS now.

Nah, the shit we're thinking of now completely blows two decades ago out the water. Nano-roll computers (Black Ops 2 gave that a public face), DNA imprinting, 3D printing, real camouflage (not that Predator energize bullshit -- it's the real scary hide-a-tank shit!), smart contracts, new economies, neo-patronage, super-angels, cashless stores, hunter-seeker cancer busters, drone warfare, the list is endless...

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1007928I did.  Both of them, and you know what I noticed in the books?  Scope.

Cyberpunk 20202 typically focused on small, personal situations, or a single city, whereas Shadowrun gave a wide overview of politics first.

So CP2020 started small and tried to go big (With mixed success, the British and Eastern books were mostly crap), while Shadowrun went big and then tried to narrow itself down to places like Seattle, Denver and the like, but usually ended up focusing at the national to state level,

This is on-point. Again, The World Outside Seattle (tm).

Quote from: Itachi;1007951Emphasis mine. That's the weird thing about Shadowrun. It's central premise is almost tongue-in-cheek ridiculous but it's execution feels very real and verosslimile, as you say. The national tensions in Treaty of Denver that made the city almost WW2 Berlin-like, the rise of amerindians from reservations and the culture clash that issued, the night of rage and racial violence, the corporate council fucking up the world (and themselves), etc. It's like this setting is just 2 minutes from us, it's very relatable, very... human? While CP2020 always sounded so "out there" to me with it's points of light urban enclaves surrounded by toxic wastelands everywhere. Maybe I expressed myself badly in the OP. Maybe the quality I see in Shadowrun has nothing to do with the cyberpunk genre, but with our own world, how approachable it feels from our reality.

Then maybe CP2020 also has these qualities and I just didn't read the right books. Who knows. I will try to rectify this up to the weekend. It will be a fun exercise.

The Amerindian stuff was bullshit. I remember reading they got into the shit from a few outspoken Native American figures who were pissed at the "ghost people" portrayal. Plus that and the fact the population growth and takeover would never, ever happen (the closest analogue we've got is Israel and maybe South Sudan and look how those are turning out...). Not that the designers cared, feather headdresses and tomahawks and Great Eagles are coooool!

Quote from: tenbones;1007965Hands down, "Home of the Brave" - the America sourcebook. Arguably, 80% of the book is fluff describing in detail the history of America and how it operates in 2020, including details on how the government really works, and how each strata of society operates. In terms of running CP2020 - I consider this book indispensable. It gets down to the nitty-gritty economics of what average people can expect and you adjust your game accordingly. There are nice rules for creating military characters, lots of little mechanical side-bars, but for a GM wanting a good snapshot of how fuuucked up America is - this is it.

Edit: I would also include - for street-level stuff- 'Wildside' the Fixer book and 'Serve and Protect' the Cop book as bookends. This way you understand exactly how crime cartels/gangs/organizations operate and what law-enforcement will bring to the table. Both extremely useful  for fleshing out your game.

As a side-note: I'd recommend giving a look at Interface-Zero 2.0 for a REALLY well done modern cyberpunk setting that is a wealth of material to be mined or used straight up.


Edit 2: if anyone cares - CP2020 is cyberpunk. Shadowrun is cyberpunk with magic. What makes something "cyberpunk" is up to the GM enforcing their ideas of cyberpunk onto the game. The question I always have - is does magic in Shadowrun inherently make it *more* cyberpunk? My answer is no. It's just a conceit of the game shoe-horned, however well done, into the genre. I'm of the opinion that GM's affect genre fidelity far more than any particular rule-set GENERALLY.

I need to check out Interface Zero, I really should. Shame it's Savage Worlds (not that I can talk, I got the damm Deluxe book in my collection, but hey, I prefer hardcovers, whaddya gonna do?).

What I would like to see is more of a focus on Lifestyle. I'm a millennial and proud of it and the thing that I really don't get is that lack of focus on it. That would really resonate with me personally but I think on a whole for my generation too. We worry about that kind of shit and we really do want a better lifestyle for ourselves. We grew up in that sweet spot between the "job for life" nostalgia of Gen X (which cyberpunk drills into and subverts, obvs) and "convenience factor" entitlement of Gen Z. We see we grew up when the digital revolution was happening, we lived the changes that Shadowrun tries to future-past-speak in its narrative, we saw how life was and we can clearly see what life could be. 'Cept we're in the position to change shit because we don't have the hangups of the former and we have the experience that the latter doesn't have. We know that we can change our place and we genuinely as a entire generation believe that we should and fuck anyone who tries to tell us we can't or who doesn't understand why we would.

I mean, dude, I grew up Low, I'm Middle now (entirely through my own effort and ambition) I want at least High and I'm gunin' for Luxury.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1008023The thing about Shadowrun that makes it good Cyberpunk and even better science fiction is, ironically, the fantasy elements because they function similarly to the alien elements in Star Trek.  They serve as metaphor, as masks that both, because they are superficially inhuman and fantastic, let Shadowrun cut deeper in the social commentary and exploration of the technological impact, and escape the charge of proselytizing and preaching because of the cover the fantasy element provides.

100%

Also, anything claiming to be cyberpunk with this as part of its soundtrack gets the thumbs up from me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx4zAGBQ-kE

If I can't feel the lights gone down low as the credits roll in the cinema, it's failed to capture the mood (but then, that's a theme in pretty everything I do so...) .

Quote from: S'mon;1008013With Cyberpunk 2020 predating Political Correctness, and Pondsmith's lack of racial hangups or animosity, I feel CP2020 has a sort of innocence or naivete about it that makes the setting rather preferable to the real world of 2017. It has a really strong '80s vibe (even more than Neuromancer) - it's a dystopian vision but written in a better time and place. A bit like Streets of Fire, it's fundamentally optimistic.

The fact that it's preferable to the real world is indicative of why I wouldn't use it as a modern cyberpunk example. I just think of it as "20XX" style 80's schlock.

Quote from: Spike;1008031At a guess:  taking the fantastic elements as proxies for real world problems allows discussions of said real world problems without being quite so pointed and hurty to people sensitive about issues.  So by talking about Humanis Policlubs (racist against Elves and Trolls and shit) vs talking about the Ku Klux Klan (racist against black people), you can have a theoretically more nuanced conversation than you could if you just talked about the KKK.

I think that one problem with this theory is that in Star Trek they generally WERE talking about taboo subjects at the time, genuninely controversial positions regarding racism, while in Shadowrun you can just swap out the Humanis Policlub for the KKK and nothing is lost or gained for 99% of the game buying public.

But that's my guess about what he meant, plus my commentary on it.

OK, but I don't think that racism explored that way is part of the cyberpunk genre. A core tenant of the cyberpunk genre is how people use technology. For Cyberpunk 2020, what good is dividing people up by race when cheap bodysculpting and skin pigmentation changers can make anyone look like any race they choose, even fantasy races can be chosen as a "race" and the person getting the body modifications can then become that "race" for however long it suits them.  Identity politics takes on a whole new dimension thanks to technology.

Exploring racism by using stand-ins like orcs and elves in Shadowrun just reminds me of the stupid idea that orcs in fantasy gaming are actually representative of African natives to be killed by evil colonials.

Quote from: jeff37923;1008068Exploring racism by using stand-ins like orcs and elves in Shadowrun just reminds me of the stupid idea that orcs in fantasy gaming are actually representative of African natives to be killed by evil colonials.

That's stupid because it is ignoring that orcs are put into fantasy gaming as designated enemies (oftentimes to remove the morale issues of going around killing other 'people'). It's pointing at the handwave and saying 'why are you handwaving this?' when the answer is 'Duh. Because we want guilt-free enemies to kill.'

Orcs and elves in Shadowrun aren't designated enemies. Whether they are good proxies for discussing race issues is another question. I do think as a group of all-white teenagers, me and my friends were able to have a no-elves-allowed nightclub in a Shadowrun game where we undoubtedly never would have explored the idea of including a no-blacks nightclub in a more realistic TP scenario (and thank gods for that, I cringe at what ham-handed thing we might have come up with). I guess the question I might ask is, so what? Do we actually accomplish anything by exploring race through that proxy dynamic?

Quote from: jeff37923;1008068OK, but I don't think that racism explored that way is part of the cyberpunk genre. A core tenant of the cyberpunk genre is how people use technology. For Cyberpunk 2020, what good is dividing people up by race when cheap bodysculpting and skin pigmentation changers can make anyone look like any race they choose, even fantasy races can be chosen as a "race" and the person getting the body modifications can then become that "race" for however long it suits them.  Identity politics takes on a whole new dimension thanks to technology.

Exploring racism by using stand-ins like orcs and elves in Shadowrun just reminds me of the stupid idea that orcs in fantasy gaming are actually representative of African natives to be killed by evil colonials.

Spike's somewhat correct in that he's got the effect right, but in his bias, he's missing the actual Cyberpunk elements using a strawman of racism which isn't really as much of Cyberpunk element, although it is present in some of the writers, especially with regards to the Japanese (they reservationed the Ainu, what do you think they do to Orks and Trolls).

I have to head to work so I can't break it down now, but here's a taste from the last time we went down this road:

Quote from: CRKrueger;881438Dehumanization of technology - Cyberpunk has humanity score, and people can go crazy from too much cyber.  But you can have Full Conversion Borgs, so the cyber level can get pretty high.  Oddly enough, it's the fantasy element of Shadowrun that actually models dehumanization better through Essence.  You have a set amount you can lose, and even a little has a dramatic effect.  It makes you harder to heal.  It makes it harder to cast magic.  When viewed from the astral, your cyber is dead spots in your aura.  It's literally dehumanizing.  They both did a great job of cyber as consumer culture, with ads, mall clinics, etc...

Corporate Rule - They both do a good job of this, and both had their "Corporate War" elements.  I think Shadowrun detailed it more with the Corporate Court, the AAA megacorps aka The Big Eight, and the big difference, the Extraterritoriality aspect that made the buildings of the AAAs basically embassys where they're own law was in effect.

Art and the Punk aesthetic - This one hands down goes to Shadowrun.  The cover of Cyberpunk 2020 is cool, no doubt about it, you got a Bladerunner-like scene in the background, a cool solo in the frontground, corp chick behind.  But, it's clean.  The solo's wearing Gibson battlegear and a t-shirt but his hair looks good.  These are beautiful people.  The cover for Shadowrun is three punks in a filthy alley.  They have alternative hairstyles, tattoos, leather and denim.  For all the talk of the focus on Shadowrun being focused on Heat style runs, I think Cyberpunk actually strayed more toward Heat and Shadowrun more toward "Pink Mohawk" in the games I saw in 90s SoCal.

Artifical Intelligence - Cyberpunk 2020 has nothing to match the menace and horror of Deus, an AI that poses potentially, a threat to all of humanity.  Even worse, Deus doesn't ape Skynet, and get free into the Matrix and take over the world, no Deus is locked away in the largest and richest Arcology (tying in with Corporate Rule) and the horror isn't being vaporized by a Terminator, but being taken to one of Deus' experimentation labs.

Rich vs. Poor - The Redmond and Puyallup Barrens of Seattle, the Shattergraves of Chicago, the Rox in Boston.  Cyberpunk has it's Mad Max vibe with the Nomad lands, and Night City has it's slums, but Shadowrun has places where shit got so bad people are pushing into Morlock territory.  Again, the magic aspect lets it push this a little harder, with virus-affected ghouls, toxic shamans, etc... Also in adventures where the runners encounter the rich and famous,

The Dehumanized want to feel human - Sex, Drugs, Simsense.  Cyberpunk has it, a lot of it.  Shadowrun takes it to the level we actually would, ie. omnipresent, everywhere and the focus of some adventures.

So while Cyberpunk 2020 might be closer to the actual settings of some of the mirrorshades writers, I think Shadowrun, by differing from those settings more actually allows them to hit the tropes and channel the spirit better.

Basically by using fantasy elements, Shadowrun obviously violates the trappings of Cyberpunk, but channels the spirit of Cyberpunk better (pun intended).

Will give a more detailed example later (probably cyberware/essence/dehumanization).

Quote from: JeremyR;1007603More coherent, believable universe

Look at the Shadowrun map of North America again.  That map alone is more fantastic than magic, elves, and orks.

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;1008079Look at the Shadowrun map of North America again.  That map alone is more fantastic than magic, elves, and orks.

Yes, but I feel like the idea that something like that could happen made more sense in a late-Cold-War, pre-9/11 world.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1007928I did.  Both of them, and you know what I noticed in the books?  Scope.

Cyberpunk 20202 typically focused on small, personal situations, or a single city, whereas Shadowrun gave a wide overview of politics first.

So CP2020 started small and tried to go big (With mixed success, the British and Eastern books were mostly crap), while Shadowrun went big and then tried to narrow itself down to places like Seattle, Denver and the like, but usually ended up focusing at the national to state level,

This was the impression I get as well. But I think that both can cover all those factors right out of the box. One just happens to detail A more while the other details B more. You just have to fill in the blanks.

Basic SR without any of the supplements paints a overall open ended picture. You learn more of whats happened up to now rather than whats going on now. Which I rather like as it gives you enough background to go whichever direction. But oddly it talks alot about the political, corporate and racial situations. But very little about the actual, you know, shadowrunning.

Whereas CP2020 feels about the opposite. Alot more detail at the personal level.

Quote from: S'mon;1008013With Cyberpunk 2020 predating Political Correctness, and Pondsmith's lack of racial hangups or animosity, I feel CP2020 has a sort of innocence or naivete about it that makes the setting rather preferable to the real world of 2017. It has a really strong '80s vibe (even more than Neuromancer) - it's a dystopian vision but written in a better time and place. A bit like Streets of Fire, it's fundamentally optimistic.

It's funny you mention this. Because living in LA at the time - I injected all that racial pathos into my CP2020 games without blinking an eye. I think it also depends on the vibe of where you play. Night City is Santa Cruz - northern CA, where Pondsmith was living thereabouts. So racial issues there were far less prominent than down south. So I naturally adjusted my game accordingly by assumption.

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1008066I need to check out Interface Zero, I really should. Shame it's Savage Worlds (not that I can talk, I got the damm Deluxe book in my collection, but hey, I prefer hardcovers, whaddya gonna do?).

Interface Zero is *superb*, system aside. It inserts a *lot* of cyberpunk tropes, some of which are redundant, some of which I *feel* are even nods in execution to Shadowrun (the animal gene hackers are basically distinct species now and inhabit that "fantasy-as-accessible-metaphor" CRKrueger mentioned. Ironically I disagreed, but after giving it some thought - I think I do agree, insofar as such things ARE part of CP2020, but they're not assumed to be widespread. In fact the more I think about it, they seem to be purely cosmetic so they come off as a fad. Whereas in Interface Zero, it's a real thing. Obviously in Shadowrun you don't even have a choice, by the conceits of the setting. Either way, I feel Interface Zero does capture that vibe and worth a purchase. I'm not sure there is any edition of the 2.0 game that ISN'T hardback. I love mine to death.

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1008066What I would like to see is more of a focus on Lifestyle. I'm a millennial and proud of it and the thing that I really don't get is that lack of focus on it. That would really resonate with me personally but I think on a whole for my generation too. We worry about that kind of shit and we really do want a better lifestyle for ourselves. We grew up in that sweet spot between the "job for life" nostalgia of Gen X (which cyberpunk drills into and subverts, obvs) and "convenience factor" entitlement of Gen Z.

As a Gen-X'er I have some perspectives of my own...

CP2020  as a game is a very Gen-X thing. Cyberpunk dystopia as a genre is really the prognostications of very young Baby Boomers on the skirts of Gen-X looking further ahead - it was the world they, the Boomer generation, were unwittingly laying the foundation for and all of it was bad. They were wrong about a lot of stuff. But they were right about the most obvious things. Some were more correct than anyone could have imagined. I, and I'm sure others here, were on the BBS's back in the early 80's and along comes Gibson talking about the Web and I was like... "People reading news on their portable PC's? That's *never* going to happen. Civilians will never want to own a PC. That's for us weirdos.... now if only I could download  this Playboy centerfold faster than 3-days." That small difference of age matters. Likewise I'll say the same thing to you. While you believe you're born to the digital age... the ramifications of the digital-age have long been in discussion for *decades* by Gen-X who like the generation before us will make accurate predictions about the obvious and some will be hyper-accurate. But without fail - we'll be wrong about a LOT of stuff. The Millennials will do the same. So the cycle goes.

But I'm with you in terms of lifestyle information. It's important because the assumptions of CP2020 and the genre are that most people are poor as fuck. But what does that mean in CP2020? Well the core book skims that, but "Home of the Brave" really does get into the nuts and bolts of everyday life. It's ugly. Being as old as I am now, with the work and life experience I've had, I have a hard time running a cyberpunk game that isn't too soul-crushing in terms making the dystopian oppression feel real. But I do that to the tolerance level of my players (partially) - in order to make the idea of being professional criminals/revolutionaries etc seem like a good alternative.

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1008066I mean, dude, I grew up Low, I'm Middle now (entirely through my own effort and ambition) I want at least High and I'm gunin' for Luxury.

That really is the heart of running a good cyberpunk game. Regardless of the system. The conceits are very social-class oriented with lots of bullets flying between them. When I GM CP2020, I want my players to feel the best and worst aspects of those various social-stratas they climb by tooth, nail, and gunfire, up through so they get the fullness of setting. Of course it has to be fun too. But that means you, as a GM, need to have a clear path of options that will allow PC's to make those big plays to move up and feel rewarded for it. Or you know... die trying.

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1008066We see we grew up when the digital revolution was happening, we lived the changes that Shadowrun tries to future-past-speak in its narrative, we saw how life was and we can clearly see what life could be. 'Cept we're in the position to change shit because we don't have the hangups of the former and we have the experience that the latter doesn't have. We know that we can change our place and we genuinely as a entire generation believe that we should and fuck anyone who tries to tell us we can't or who doesn't understand why we would.

Oh such optimism! I would love to disabuse you of such notions in the most fun ways! hahah

Quote from: CRKrueger;1008074Spike's somewhat correct in that he's got the effect right, but in his bias, he's missing the actual Cyberpunk elements using a strawman of racism which isn't really as much of Cyberpunk element, although it is present in some of the writers, especially with regards to the Japanese (they reservationed the Ainu, what do you think they do to Orks and Trolls).

.

Ok, so either I'm confused or you think that I'm the one claiming that racism is a cyberpunk element?

If its the later: no, I'm trying to explain someone else's point that I don't actually agree with, though that is not to say you can't put it in there (I'm not a fan of setting genre first in writing, anyway).

If its the former: What? Please explain to me what you think my position is, and how its wrong, because I can't parse this for shit. I am legit lost.

Quote from: tenbones;1008102Oh such optimism! I would love to disabuse you of such notions in the most fun ways! hahah

Yeah it reminds me of when I was in university and classmates went on about how they were going to fix the problems caused by the Baby Boomers. We know how that went...

Quote from: Spike;1008140Ok, so either I'm confused or you think that I'm the one claiming that racism is a cyberpunk element?

If its the later: no, I'm trying to explain someone else's point that I don't actually agree with, though that is not to say you can't put it in there (I'm not a fan of setting genre first in writing, anyway).

If its the former: What? Please explain to me what you think my position is, and how its wrong, because I can't parse this for shit. I am legit lost.

You got the idea right, about the metaphor, but in arguing against the point, you used probably the weakest example possible - discrimination against the awakened.  That's all.

Eh. Off the top of my head that was the most direct and obvious example of using a game metaphor for real world issues.  I'm not sure how thats the weakest, but I suppose from here its all subjective.

Quote from: tenbones;1008096It's funny you mention this. Because living in LA at the time - I injected all that racial pathos into my CP2020 games without blinking an eye. I think it also depends on the vibe of where you play. Night City is Santa Cruz - northern CA, where Pondsmith was living thereabouts. So racial issues there were far less prominent than down south. So I naturally adjusted my game accordingly by assumption.

AIR Gibson's novels don't have race as an element either, except the dominance of the Japanese - everyone seems to be white/culturally white, or Japanese. So I think CP:2020 is true enough to the source material (AIR the main way it's not true to the source is in making heavy duty weapons & cybernetics far far more common, in the books something like a monofilament thread weapon is more like a D&D magic item than standard issue).

I get the impression the 1992 LA riots marked a shift in US culture where this kind of depiction of the future ceased to be plausible.

Quote from: tenbones;1008096It's funny you mention this. Because living in LA at the time - I injected all that racial pathos into my CP2020 games without blinking an eye. I think it also depends on the vibe of where you play. Night City is Santa Cruz - northern CA, where Pondsmith was living thereabouts. So racial issues there were far less prominent than down south. So I naturally adjusted my game accordingly by assumption.

Sounds a little bit more Strange Days style. I could dig that.

I would love to see an update that includes some of the things in that movie, including hip hop as the dominant music style. Change Jhonny Silverhand for someone like Jeriko One.

Quote from: S'mon;1008216AIR Gibson's novels don't have race as an element either, except the dominance of the Japanese - everyone seems to be white/culturally white, or Japanese. So I think CP:2020 is true enough to the source material (AIR the main way it's not true to the source is in making heavy duty weapons & cybernetics far far more common, in the books something like a monofilament thread weapon is more like a D&D magic item than standard issue).

Yeah - but what a cool concept for a weapon!

Quote from: S'mon;1008216I get the impression the 1992 LA riots marked a shift in US culture where this kind of depiction of the future ceased to be plausible.

The Japan Domination Idea didn't end with the riots. It ended when it became clear Japanese economic practices that destroyed their economy meant there was no way in hell it was ever going to happen. I'm not convinced by the time of the riots that whole meme was really a thing anymore. But I would concede post-riots, I can't even remember anyone romanticizing it anywhere but in RPG's.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1008242Sounds a little bit more Strange Days style. I could dig that.

I would love to see an update that includes some of the things in that movie, including hip hop as the dominant music style. Change Jhonny Silverhand for someone like Jeriko One.

Yep. My CP2020 LA is *very* much closer to Strange Days with strong doses of Bladerunner. I tried to go with Mexican culture over the "Asian" aesthetic on the streets. I let the natural cultural enclaves of various locals do the informing and let the game take its course.

Quote from: Voros;1008147Yeah it reminds me of when I was in university and classmates went on about how they were going to fix the problems caused by the Baby Boomers. We know how that went...

/sigh... I think we're all still dealing with that unfortunately. Give it another decade or so, people will *really* start saying "Damn... this is feeling kinda Cyberpunky, isn't it?"

Some might say that now. I wouldn't know, since I live in the equivalent of an arcology. Seven of the top-10 safest cities in America are all in Dallas (mine is #3) - of course this will only last until the last Californian shows up and ruins it all. Then I'll be back in the Combat Zone.

Quote from: tenbones;1008253The Japan Domination Idea didn't end with the

I think S'mon is referring to race not being an element not the japanese domination.

Quote from: S'mon;1008216AIR Gibson's novels don't have race as an element either, ... everyone seems to be white/culturally white, or Japanese.

Welcome to theRPGsite, Laber!

Shadowrun is more cyberpunk than Gibson! :eek:

Quote from: Omega;1008603Shadowrun is more cyberpunk than Gibson! :eek:

How dare you!

Quote from: Omega;1008603Shadowrun is more cyberpunk than Gibson! :eek:

Yo mama!

I'll have a toke of whatever Omega is smoking. Must be an amazing trip.

There was a story called "plus ça change" that opened up the first edition of Shadowrun that I've read (2nd), which seems to reflect the game ethos very well. Yeah, we got the awakening and dragons and matrix crashes, etc. but in the end of day, it's all about man eating man. There are it's share of alien inter-dimensional threats and all that, but the core of the setting is about man.

CP2020 though did make for the superior CCG.

Haha true!

Love this thread.

Thank you everyone!!

Quote from: Itachi;1009001Haha true!

Its too bad they stripped out the CP2020 setting from the re-release by FFG.

I think they're probably just two different kinds of Cyberpunk.

Quote from: Omega;1009066Its too bad they stripped out the CP2020 setting from the re-release by FFG.

It is expected. FFG stripped out a good user-friendly resolution mechanic from all of their Star Wars games.....

Quote from: S'mon;1008216AIR Gibson's novels don't have race as an element either, except the dominance of the Japanese - everyone seems to be white/culturally white, or Japanese.

A Rastafarian group (in orbit) were pretty important in Neuromancer.

Quote from: Vile;1009240A Rastafarian group (in orbit) were pretty important in Neuromancer.

In CP2020 highrider culture is very Afrocentric since most of the workers from Orbital Air and Eurospace Agency set up shop in Africa since it was nearest the equator. Plus it avoided the south/central American situation (which is covered in Chrome Berets). So that bit nicked from Neuromancer was blown out even more with better in-game reasoning.

Quote from: tenbones;1009848In CP2020 highrider culture is very Afrocentric since most of the workers from Orbital Air and Eurospace Agency set up shop in Africa since it was nearest the equator. Plus it avoided the south/central American situation (which is covered in Chrome Berets). So that bit nicked from Neuromancer was blown out even more with better in-game reasoning.

I think Shadowrun kept it's setting purposefullly earth-centric because of magic and the awakening. The matter of magic working (or not) in space was always cloudy, at least in early editions. It felt like the authors never wanted to really engage with magical physics in low-life environments and just let the matter vague. And gaming-wise, it would be a problem playing in an environment where mages/awakened can't work properly. (don't know if they addressed the matter more throughfully in 4th/5th ed).

Quote from: Itachi;1009893I think Shadowrun kept it's setting purposefullly earth-centric because of magic and the awakening. The matter of magic working (or not) in space was always cloudy, at least in early editions. It felt like the authors never wanted to really engage with magical physics in low-life environments and just let the matter vague. And gaming-wise, it would be a problem playing in an environment where mages/awakened can't work properly. (don't know if they addressed the matter more throughfully in 4th/5th ed).

That's an interesting point! I never really thought about space-related stuff in terms of Shadowrun - mainly because all of the terrestrial conceits of SR pretty much is all that is necessary. I can generally say the same thing for CP2020 - but I will also say some of the best material and games I've run in CP2020 had my PC's going to space. The 'Near Orbit' and 'Deep Space' books were amazing. Necessary for CP2020? Not really, but damn worth the ticket for entry if you wanted to blow your game out with the "mythological" aspects of the setting (Like the Angels living on the Crystal Palace) etc.

You could totally do that with Shadowrun and make it far more "supernatural" than just technological. I think that would be more interesting

Quote from: RPGPundit;1009213I think they're probably just two different kinds of Cyberpunk.

This. They share a lot of core conceits. But the magic element of Shadowrun is it's own thing that changes the flavor of the setting far more than the technological aspects alone do. I'm not even sure outside of the direct implication that technoshock as a thing, is more magnified than the impact of magic itself. I guess it depends on the GM.

Quote from: jeff37923;1009217It is expected. FFG stripped out a good user-friendly resolution mechanic from all of their Star Wars games.....

Matter of opinion.

Quote from: tenbones;1009895That's an interesting point! I never really thought about space-related stuff in terms of Shadowrun - mainly because all of the terrestrial conceits of SR pretty much is all that is necessary. I can generally say the same thing for CP2020 - but I will also say some of the best material and games I've run in CP2020 had my PC's going to space. The 'Near Orbit' and 'Deep Space' books were amazing. Necessary for CP2020? Not really, but damn worth the ticket for entry if you wanted to blow your game out with the "mythological" aspects of the setting (Like the Angels living on the Crystal Palace) etc.

You could totally do that with Shadowrun and make it far more "supernatural" than just technological. I think that would be more interesting

Year of the Comet covers the various SR space programs but doesnt talk about actual space travel if I recall correctly. Id have to dig it out and see what they say on magic in space. Its more concerned with the effects of space, the comet, on magic and people.

SR never struck me as a setting to develop a big manned space program seeing as how messed up the world was before the awakening and now things are a liiitle weirder. Its an as yet un-tapped area of adventure. Too bad Dragon never got around to it. Though you could adapt one of the existing articles to SR. Like Zondrakker. (or however its spelled.)

Quote from: Omega;1009952Year of the Comet covers the various SR space programs but doesnt talk about actual space travel if I recall correctly. Id have to dig it out and see what they say on magic in space. Its more concerned with the effects of space, the comet, on magic and people.

SR never struck me as a setting to develop a big manned space program seeing as how messed up the world was before the awakening and now things are a liiitle weirder. Its an as yet un-tapped area of adventure. Too bad Dragon never got around to it. Though you could adapt one of the existing articles to SR. Like Zondrakker. (or however its spelled.)

Magic requires a biosphere, and doesn't work in orbit. Astral forms that try and go into space from Earth are lost and the mage goes insane.

But magic works on mars. Barely.

You know Id totally forgotten that CP2020 had 2 CCGs.
I was referring to Netrunner which became Android Netrunner when it was sold to FFG. Removing CP2020 from the setting and replacing it with FFGs Android setting.

To me, part of the dystopianism of Cyberpunk is that basically the move to the stars is stuck or halted.  So, much like in our present day.

Isnt there one or more setting books for CP2020 dealing with space? A station or something?

Quote from: Omega;1010602Isnt there one or more setting books for CP2020 dealing with space? A station or something?

Near Orbit and Deep Space. In Cyberpunk 2020 mankind has settlements on the Moon, Mars, and in the Lagrange Points. Exploration missions have gone out to Jupiter and Saturn, and in to Venus and Mercury.

In my own games, I included the Asteroid Belt and NEAs because what is a spacefaring hard science fiction game without Belters?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1010600To me, part of the dystopianism of Cyberpunk is that basically the move to the stars is stuck or halted.  So, much like in our present day.

I think that's a very narrow view (but not wholly wrong - mainly because in a cyberpunk reality, which may include right now - WE would be denied access to space for similar reasons). Cyberpunk is largely presented as a "terrestrial" affair on Earth with poor bastards scrabbling around. But wealthy bastards are still accruing massively more amounts of wealth doing . Space industry is an obvious goal for big megacorps.

Huge amounts of resources are available even with modern technology - the ISSUE is that run-of-mill folks will still be denied access to the culture of space.

A REALLY good example of what space cyberpunk would look like is the books (and SUPERB TV show) The Expanse. Seriously awesome and excellent example of cyberpunk-space.

Yeah, I have reservations about space-based cyberpunk too, but that's because I grew up with Neuromancer, Akira and GitS. Tenbones explanations makes all sense, and I will definitely have a look on the Expanse tv show. Thanks Mr Bones. ;)

Quote from: Itachi;1010708Yeah, I have reservations about space-based cyberpunk too, but that's because I grew up with Neuromancer, Akira and GitS. Tenbones explanations makes all sense, and I will definitely have a look on the Expanse tv show. Thanks Mr Bones. ;)

/bows

I sincerely love that show and the books, of course, are amazing. I hope you find it as enjoyable.

Blade Runner has space travel, but never shows it. Also theres something about Outland that has a bit of a cyberpunk vibe to it. Though very muted. Its kinda what Id envision Blade Runners space to look like in the more grungy sectors. I think it would look more like Avatar in the more advanced sectors.

Quote from: Omega;1010730Blade Runner has space travel, but never shows it. Also theres something about Outland that has a bit of a cyberpunk vibe to it. Though very muted. Its kinda what Id envision Blade Runners space to look like in the more grungy sectors. I think it would look more like Avatar in the more advanced sectors.

Yeah. Or Firefly might be a good example of showing that spectrum.

Quote from: tenbones;1010755Yeah. Or Firefly might be a good example of showing that spectrum.

Firefly's tech may be a bit too far past cyberpunk. And they had very little net presence on that show aside from one notable element. We are talking Tekumel level planet enginerering able to alter a whole planets gravity. Firefly is more frontier than punk in feel. Though obviously theres some sort of cyberpunk setting. The main characters just dont deal with it hardly and stay on the fringe half the time.

Or to put it differently the show itself doesnt feel cyberpunk usually. But the setting indicates that there is one from what few glimpses that do happen.

Quote from: Omega;1010730Blade Runner has space travel, but never shows it. Also theres something about Outland that has a bit of a cyberpunk vibe to it. Though very muted. Its kinda what Id envision Blade Runners space to look like in the more grungy sectors. I think it would look more like Avatar in the more advanced sectors.

As a kid I always kinda thought of Blade Runner, Outland, and Alien as taking part in the same setting, though not at the same moment in time.

Quote from: Simlasa;1010956As a kid I always kinda thought of Blade Runner, Outland, and Alien as taking part in the same setting, though not at the same moment in time.

As someone pointed out, Alien, Blade Runner and Soldier were meant to be in the same universe.

That's just based on them throwing nearly every possible Sci-Fi reference possible into Soldier.  It's a movie full of Easter Egg inside jokes, not any attempt at realistically joining the settings.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1010993That's just based on them throwing nearly every possible Sci-Fi reference possible into Soldier.  It's a movie full of Easter Egg inside jokes, not any attempt at realistically joining the settings.

One of the sources found:  http://bladerunner.wikia.com/wiki/Soldier

Direct quote from the references:

Writer David Peoples has claimed that this movie is a sequel of sorts to Blade Runner, which he also wrote. He claims that the soldiers of this movie are examples of the engineered life forms seen in Blade Runner; vehicles seen in Blade Runner are also seen in this movie. In addition, a list of Kurt Russel's weapon training history indicates that he has been trained on the M41A Pulse Rifle and USCM Smartgun, weapons seen in the movie Aliens - which could indicate that that franchise also exists within the same universe.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1011067One of the sources found:  http://bladerunner.wikia.com/wiki/Soldier

Direct quote from the references:

Writer David Peoples has claimed that this movie is a sequel of sorts to Blade Runner, which he also wrote. He claims that the soldiers of this movie are examples of the engineered life forms seen in Blade Runner; vehicles seen in Blade Runner are also seen in this movie. In addition, a list of Kurt Russel's weapon training history indicates that he has been trained on the M41A Pulse Rifle and USCM Smartgun, weapons seen in the movie Aliens - which could indicate that that franchise also exists within the same universe.

Yeah, that's one of the dozen at least references to other sci-fi franchises, they all part of the same universe too? The soldier bears no resemblance to a Blade Runner replicant, he's entirely human, which is the point of the new genetically engineered models, which aren't replicants either.

He may have wanted it to be in the same universe, but it's clearly not.  It's a "spiritual successor" or "love letter" kind of thing but no more than that.  Visuals and Easter Eggs play with the idea, not a single word in the script does.

Quote from: Omega;1010952Firefly's tech may be a bit too far past cyberpunk. And they had very little net presence on that show aside from one notable element. We are talking Tekumel level planet enginerering able to alter a whole planets gravity. Firefly is more frontier than punk in feel. Though obviously theres some sort of cyberpunk setting. The main characters just dont deal with it hardly and stay on the fringe half the time.

Or to put it differently the show itself doesnt feel cyberpunk usually. But the setting indicates that there is one from what few glimpses that do happen.

I'm going to take you on for this with one big guiding principle: CP2020 as written in the late 80's and didn't really consider (nor did it need to) all of the technological ramifications of the things present already in the setting.

Firefly as a show is very Cyberpunk (the genre in general) from the perspective of people that live in the wastelands in CP2020 - very frontier, very hand-to-mouth, but technology is present, especially when you get to locales where the Alliance (Government) forces have a presence.

CP2020 has very sophisticated technology that only works its way down to the lowest common denominator (the PC's) by intention of the genre. They're pretty explicit that the tech that is radical by average streetrunners like Nanotech is very much present at the higher ends of the spectrum. As are energy weapons, and such. The manufacturing capacity of the megacorps in CP2020 could and I say *would* have had a much larger presence in space. That is corroborated by the creation of the Crystal Palace and the cities on the moon at Tycho and Copernicus crater. It would be silly to conceive that megacorps would not go further (and while I don't have my books in front of me - I'm *pretty sure* they imply that in "Deep Space".

I'm not entirely disagreeing with you - in presentation of the basic game, there are things in Firefly (the Alliance in particular) that outstrip much of what is even implied in CP2020, but I think that gulf is not as broad as it would appear given the technological capacities that are present in CP2020. 99% of the tech used by the Alliance is actually present in CP2020 just not scaled up due to (and this is my interpretation) 1) Lack of need 2) Lack of extrapolation.

I think Interface Zero does a much better job of fleshing out those technological possibilities. When CP2077 drops I'm curious to see how far they take it.

This reddit has some interesting info on the subject of space exploration in cyberpunk: https://www.reddit.com/r/Cyberpunk/comments/3cj7f1/space_travel_in_cyberpunk/

I have not read Schismatrix yet, but it is mentioned as one of the seminal cyberpunk works that has actual space travel in it. Altered Carbon is also mentioned (I've also not read it).

I have read Gibson's "Red Star, Winter Orbit" and one called "Snake Eyes" by another author, which are closer to what pundit was saying.

Quote from: tenbones;1010699A REALLY good example of what space cyberpunk would look like is the books (and SUPERB TV show) The Expanse. Seriously awesome and excellent example of cyberpunk-space.

Fair enough.

But part of Cyberpunk is that, like punk itself, it is a phenomenon that was born in and depends on urban blight.  It's about City, not space. So you can have "cyberpunk in space" but only if you make an asteroid or space-station act as an overcrowded impoverished dangerous city.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1012042Fair enough.

But part of Cyberpunk is that, like punk itself, it is a phenomenon that was born in and depends on urban blight.  It's about City, not space. So you can have "cyberpunk in space" but only if you make an asteroid or space-station act as an overcrowded impoverished dangerous city.

Pundit, my friend, you need to watch some Expanse. Mission accomplished. Give us some feedback afterwards, I'm very curious to hear your reaction and thoughts on it.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1012042Fair enough.

But part of Cyberpunk is that, like punk itself, it is a phenomenon that was born in and depends on urban blight.  It's about City, not space. So you can have "cyberpunk in space" but only if you make an asteroid or space-station act as an overcrowded impoverished dangerous city.

... hm, would you say Babylon 5 was cyberpunk-ish? or DS9?

Quote from: joriandrake;1012283... hm, would you say Babylon 5 was cyberpunk-ish? or DS9?

Babylon 5 defiantly had some cyber puck bits to it though we tended to fallow characters who where pretty well off  as far as the station where concerned.

Something to think about is that the genre of cyberpunk was a product of the 80's and 90's and rode along with the dawn of the internet. What was a cutting edge new literary genre then, is now just another aspect of science fiction. In the words of Cybergeneration, "Evolve or Die".

Quote from: jeff37923;1012382Something to think about is that the genre of cyberpunk was a product of the 80's and 90's and rode along with the dawn of the internet. What was a cutting edge new literary genre then, is now just another aspect of science fiction. In the words of Cybergeneration, "Evolve or Die".

Yes, while game mechanics/systems might not be affected by age, things such as 'futuristic' settings which don't even have simple modern mobile/smart phones due to lack of updating is jarring. I also have a personal problem with most of the old settings not having proper genetic engineering options while being full of cybernetic ones.

Quote from: joriandrake;1012283... hm, would you say Babylon 5 was cyberpunk-ish? or DS9?

Only if you stretch the term so far its lost its original meaning.

Quote from: Omega;1012521Only if you stretch the term so far its lost its original meaning.

Both stations were city-like and especially B5 had slums.

Quote from: joriandrake;1012527Both stations were city-like and especially B5 had slums.

None of which in and of itself has anything to do with cyberpunk. A Tree Grows in Brooklyn is not cyberpunk. (Even if you set it in space.)

Quote from: Omega;1012529None of which in and of itself has anything to do with cyberpunk. A Tree Grows in Brooklyn is not cyberpunk. (Even if you set it in space.)

My question was directed at RPGPundit though, who focused on the importance of impoverished, overcrowded urban setting.

Quote from: joriandrake;1012283... hm, would you say Babylon 5 was cyberpunk-ish? or DS9?

Nope.

Quote from: joriandrake;1012283... hm, would you say Babylon 5 was cyberpunk-ish? or DS9?

No. Mainly because in Ds9 the cultures and content of the Federation was well past the conceits of cyberpunk genre. It's a post-scarcity society. Offworld sure there might be some places that would be cyberpunkish - but largely no. It's firmly in classic sci-fi territory.

B5 - I say no simply because the conceits of the characters are beyond, like Ds9 that of cyberpunk genre's limits. Not that cyberpunk elements don't exist there in pockets - sure. But the overall scope of the show and setting are beyond that of "traditional" cyberpunk. It's nowhere near as dystopic.

I look at cyberpunk as a tight-knit genre that is easily encompassed and absorbed into the larger sci-fi genre. While it may still exist here and there - one could easily say (and I would be one of them) that "cyberpunk" is almost a developmental stage that leads to harder sci-fi.

One of the conceits I consider prominent if not primary in Cyberpunk is the relationship of the individual to large financial interests (such as mega-corporations). Both B5 and DS9 are more standard sci-fi in that they have a military/government focus, along with meeting new and interesting (and/or threatening) cultures. Money is acknowledged in both, but it isn't a primary focus and the haves and have-nots are mostly those within a command structure--be it normal military/government, or within secretive intelligence orders. B5 and DS9 were groundbreaking at the time, and expanded the genre (and allowed a new form of grit to exist in sci fi), but they're both pretty divorced from cyberpunk.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1013565One of the conceits I consider prominent if not primary in Cyberpunk is the relationship of the individual to large financial interests (such as mega-corporations). Both B5 and DS9 are more standard sci-fi in that they have a military/government focus, along with meeting new and interesting (and/or threatening) cultures. Money is acknowledged in both, but it isn't a primary focus and the haves and have-nots are mostly those within a command structure--be it normal military/government, or within secretive intelligence orders. B5 and DS9 were groundbreaking at the time, and expanded the genre (and allowed a new form of grit to exist in sci fi), but they're both pretty divorced from cyberpunk.

See, but even then, military is a big part of the backgrounds of a LOT of cyberpunk. I agree with you on a certain core premise: cyberpunk has to do with street-level people using street-level tech to deal with issues that are usually way out of their respective league, or dealing with problems that start outside of their shitty circumstances and invade into it. There are lots of little needles to thread through that we can dance around, sure.

You enter core sci-fi when those needs for everyday survival - whether it's getting food into your gullet, or psychological - where you're stuck in some corporate hellhole trying desperately not to become one of those aforementioned hungry blokes, are no longer an issue. CP2020 and Shadowrun definitely both have those elements.

What puts Shadowrun completely apart from CP2020 is the supernatural stuff layered on top of and within it.

There was a wargame way back in the late 90s called Shockforce that effectively took Warhammer and Shadowrun and merged them together into a cyberpunk setting. Instead of magic it was mutations. GW sued them. But GWAR and Legions of Steel were still made.