TheRPGSite

Well, it is approximately one year, since I've truly left the petty playground of my national RPG community and made brave step into the space of world RPG. Sure, I've made several expeditions before, but never in such extent.

What seems really strange to me is, that wherever I go, I meet some familiar people. And usually they disuss similar things. It might seem obvious to you, but to me, it seems bit strange. Somehow, I feel, the RPG world is small. Very small. Smaller than it should be. Meeting one person on three or for message boards I can undestand. When you meet ten, or twenty familiar faces, it begin to be almost suspicious. When you are no longer able to count them on your fingers and toes, it is well... mysterious.

Now there are supposed to be millions of players. So what is the chance to meet still the same one? Is it possible, to just follow the links in circle, missing something, which is outside of it? To follow the leads of the previous explorers and so some secrets stay undiscovered?

What if? What if there is another bunch of message boards, and players not connected with us or any other boards know to us. What if we are actually passing each other? Who can tell in such amount of pages devoted to RPG? What if there are another RPG tribes in the jungle? With their own RPG theories, their own swines and their own swine-hunters?

I know, it sounds stupid. But still... somehow, I tend to believe it. And one day, we might meet them... :p

The vast majority of RPGers never even look online for gaming needs, as they are perfectly happy not doing so.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceThe vast majority of RPGers never even look online for gaming needs, as they are perfectly happy not doing so.

-clash

I agree with this statement from my experiences.

Sometimes when I waste hours at a time on the net  discussing games when I could have been writing an adventure or playing a session I wonder If I wouldn't be better off.

Unable to find out though, as I'm hopelessly addicted.:haw:

Quote from: AlnagWhat if? What if there is another bunch of message boards, and players not connected with us or any other boards know to us. What if we are actually passing each other? Who can tell in such amount of pages devoted to RPG? What if there are another RPG tribes in the jungle? With their own RPG theories, their own swines and their own swine-hunters

If you are talking about boards like Enworld, RPGnet, theRPGsite, RPG FunZone, RPG Lounge, the Forge, and similar sites there's a reason for this apparent lack of biodiversity.  These are boards DEDICATED to pen-and-paper AKA tabletop RPGs.  And like flyingmice said most RPG players probably don't even bother to waste their online time/consider that they could waste time in forums.

I've seen posts from new users who've wandered in, all wide eyed and innocent, wanting to start up a forum story game, talk about CRPG development, or maybe board games who've been dogpiled and told, like the poor family in Amityville, to GET OUT!  And they do.  It may seem rude but, really, there are actually boards dedicated strictly to CRPGs, story games, and even OOP RPGs et al.

From my link list*:

http://www.igda.org/Forums/index.php

http://www.omegarising.com/

http://alternityrpg.net/onlineforums/index.php

http://www.bgdf.com/tiki/tiki-custom_home.php

http://forums.thenexuspoint.com/

http://forums.spacebattles.com/forumdisplay.php?f=32

(*) And I see some links that used to go to forums have been replaced by wiki's.  So I've not included those.

And let's not forget there are also mailing lists, groups, and even some general discussion forums with RPG sub-fora. . .

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Fantastic_Creations/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theoddguild/

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/gammaworld/

(You can view my Yahoo profile page (http://360.yahoo.com/kester_pelagius) to find more RPG related groups.)

http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/gammaworld-l.html

"roleplaying forums" (http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&newwindow=1&safe=off&q=%22roleplaying+forums%22)

Forums are a lot like D20.  There's a MEGATON of them out there vying for the attention of a limited consumer base.  And, if I had a lick of sense, I'd have thought about that three days ago and gone and playing Dungeon Keeper or something.  ;)

Well, according to Ken Hite's Out of the Box (from some time I can't remember) the market for RPGs is about the same size as the market for live opera.  

So, about the same amount of people buy/play RPGs as people who go see the opera.

I don't think there's a separate community Alnag, although there are a few strange forums that are splinters of the Forge (story-games comes to mind, or "I would knife-fight a man").

Yes, The RPG World is very small.  I would doubt that RPGers make up even 1% of the world's population.

And according to some industry insiders I have read (I think Ken Hite- I may be wrong) and others the gamer pool is shrinking.  

In some places people don't have problems finding people to game with, but in others really have a problem.

I sort of have a group to game with but life has made it hard to get together, some are married, some work alot, etc.

I am looking for people another group of people to game with but it is hard.  I found a group that I may end up gaming with.   Parts of me has considered putting my stuff on ebay and walking away from the hobby.

Not sure at this point.  Going to see if that group pans out.  If it doesn't I will probably sell the rest of my stuff and walk away from the hobby.

Most gamers dont crawl the forums. Of the 6-8 people that play in my group. I'm the only one that posts on forums.

Quote from: Blue DevilIn some places people don't have problems finding people to game with, but in others really have a problem.

One thing to remember is that just because you can't find them doesn't mean they're not out there. Consider your social circle - the people you know and communicate with regularly. If none of them game, you may feel at a loss in finding gamers. But your social circle will intersect with some others, and some of them may game. Consider your social circle mapped out. It may look something like this.


Now, if you are poor old JABA out in the top left, you may know ECON, AER and JPE, as they're all friends with ECON, and this person introduces you. But you won't know JAE down in the bottom left, and you've almost no chance of knowing JAP down in the bottom right. If you met this person by chance, you wouldn't know that they knew AMJ who knows HBR who knows AER who knows your own ECON. So if JAP is a devoted gamer whose tastes exactly complement your own, well...

I would suggest that when you're finding lots of gamers, at that time you're like HBR in the middle; when you're finding few, you're more like poor old JABA. Now, what I think is that to know lots of gamers you must know lots of people. But many people don't try to know lots of people. If we leave a game group or workplace or school, we don't keep in touch with many - or even any - of the people from there. And if we meet someone new, we often make little effort to get to know them, just going on first impressions.

So looking at this map, poor JABA is either new to the area and has only had the chance to meet one person, or else is a bit shy or lazy. Whereas HBR is obviously very sociable and open, or else in demand in some way, with lots of people coming to them - a school principal, or priest or bank manager. So if you want to expand your social circle, the way to do it is to not be lazy and shy, to keep in touch with people and be interested in them, and also to try to make yourself in demand in some way.

For things along these lines, you might want to look into things like my GameCircle.org, which I discuss a bit on my LJ in this post (http://jimboboz.livejournal.com/27222.html). Basically the model here is that I know the GMs of a few different game groups, and the only gamer outside their group those GMs know is me, and the only gamers the group members know are each-other. So I try to bring them together by drawing the GMs in and their players follow, so that all the group members will get to know all the other groups' members. I turn the three or five social circles connected only through me into a big web, all connected to each-other. (Of course really some of the groups do know each-other, but I'm just simplifying to describe the principles.)

Going back to the diagram, there's a lot of luck involved. If JABA has equal chances of meeting any other member, ideally they'll meet HBR or GMJ, because those people can introduce them to the most other people. But if they meet OR at the top they only meet one other person, MS - but then, MS is connected to several others, including HNR and GMJ who can introduce them to just about anybody.

If this were a game, you'd be hoping for your guy to connect to as many others as possible. So be social :D

One thing the diagramme doesn't show is the strength of each connection. It doesn't distinguish between "see him every day at work, talk to him but if I left the job would never talk to him again," and "my husband." My observation is that the strong connections tend to go in little circles. Gamers are not the only people to form groups of 3-6, it seems to be a natural human thing to do, to form little groups or cliques. Since a lot of gaming has the model of the Endless Epic Campaign, these groups can be pretty tight. So you can go into a new town and there's fifty different campaigns going on but you don't hear about them, because each group keeps to themselves. The good side to that though is that when you do meet one, you get to meet their whole group.

I think this "form cliques" thing also explains why Alnag is seeing the same people pop up on different sites. It's not that there are really few people posting to sites, rather that active posters will tend to get to know each-other, feel connected, and when they find a new site, point others to it. So an online clique will go around from site to site, and Alnaq will say, "hey, I've seen those guys before..."

Quote from: Blue DevilParts of me has considered putting my stuff on ebay and walking away from the hobby.

I don't think you should do that. If you're no longer interested, then it's fair enough to walk away. But if you're very interested but just unlucky, then you should keep your books, and just be social. When you meet a lot of people, you'll meet a lot of gamers, too. And of course you may make some gamers, too.

You may also want to check out the article Getting a Game Group and Keeping It (http://www.gamecircle.org/modules/AMS/article.php?storyid=11).

JimBobOz, you just posted a partial Near Star Map from 2300AD as a social circle.

I think I've just earned some major Geek Points for recognizing it.

Quote from: JimBobOzOne thing to remember is that just because you can't find them doesn't mean they're not out there. Consider your social circle - the people you know and communicate with regularly.

Well, I am finding it hard to find new people to game with, game industry insiders have said that the number of gamers have dropped (No, the hobby isn't dying, just the number of gamers coming into the hobby is less then those leaving) and I tend to believe it.  It is much harder to find gamers now then before.

Quote from: JimBobOzI don't think you should do that. If you're no longer interested, then it's fair enough to walk away.

Partly I am loosing interest and partly because it is so hard to find gamers these days that I am not sure if it's worth it.  Again, the hobby isn't dying but the pool of gamers is shrinking.   I could put the effort into a better suppported hobby.

Quote from: JimBobOzBut if you're very interested but just unlucky, then you should keep your books, and just be social. When you meet a lot of people, you'll meet a lot of gamers, too. And of course you may make some gamers, too.

Unlucky but interested, that is me.  I just happen to live in a place where there aren't alot of gamers.  I am very social but finding gamers isn't easy.  Some places (maybe where you live) may have plenty of gamers but there are alot of us who live in areas that do not have alot of gamers.

Which also doesn't help because I bet many of the people who have problems finding other gamers give up and sell their stuff on Ebay and move on to other hobbies.

Quote from: jeff37923JimBobOz, you just posted a partial Near Star Map from 2300AD as a social circle.

I think I've just earned some major Geek Points for recognizing it.

Or rather, the guy who posted it originally as a social map on a university site gets major geek points for slipping it in, see here (http://www.istheory.yorku.ca/socialnetworktheory.htm). In any case, it illustrated things well, yes? :D

Quote from: Blue DevilWell, I am finding it hard to find new people to game with, game industry insiders have said that the number of gamers have dropped (No, the hobby isn't dying, just the number of gamers coming into the hobby is less then those leaving) and I tend to believe it. It is much harder to find gamers now then before.

I happen to know "industry insiders", and the simple fact is that they have no more of a clue how many gamers there are out there actually gaming than do you or I. They have no actual data on "gamers" except their sales figures. They do know how their sales figures are, and how much money they spent on a particular product and how much they've made from it. About this latter, they always complain. Always. In this, the game industry is no different to any other. Restaurant owners always complain, farmers always complain, and so on. If you're in business, selling things you produce for a profit, then you complain that business is bad.

In any case, the actual number of gamers overall is irrelevant to whether you or I can get a game group. Suppose you have moved to Blonk, Idaho. Blonk is a town of 5,000 people. 500 of them are gamers, but you don't know anyone at all, they don't have a mailing list, and the town's not friendly to strangers. The large number of gamers helps you not at all. But then suppose Blonk had just 50 gamers, but through your cousin Jerry you knew them all - well, then 50 would seem like an awful lot to you, and great.

What matters is not how many gamers there are overall, but how many you personally know. You just have to get out there and try to get to know people. I am a fairly introverted guy, but I get out there and try to meet people, and am quite happy to tell strangers at parties and so on that I'm a roleplayer. So I'm in two game groups, each with 4 people besides me, and 1 other guy common to the two groups, and could be in a third if I wanted to, but it'd be a bit much for me. So that's about a dozen people who are happy to game with me.

In one group, we meet in the city at a university lounge because it's central to us all. We meet in the same spot that the uni game groups do, but they meet on Wednesdays and Fridays. Normally we go on Thursdays and miss them, but last time we went on Wednesday, and there were five game groups there, about 24 gamers in all. Now, sure they wouldn't all be to our taste if we invited them in - but from 24 people I should be able to get 3 or 4 whose company I'll enjoy.

You get similar scenes at other universities around. There are also about four significant wargaming clubs, and a good number of the 20-50 people who go to them each week also roleplay. If you just wander in and look at people's figurines of course you won't get an rpg session out of it. But if you go in, talk to people, pitch your game you want to run, you ought to be able to get  a game group from each club.

But then, the city I live in with four million other people has only two dedicated game stores. And if you talk to the store owners, they tell you that there aren't as many gamers as before, and point to their sales as evidence.

The gamers are out there, you just have to find them. You find them by being sociable.

The other option is to make gamers. Find people with related interests, like LARPing, wargaming, fantasy/scifi novels, computer rpgs, and tell them about the face-to-face version of roleplaying around a game table. Most won't be interested, but a few will.

Quote from: Blue DevilUnlucky but interested, that is me. I just happen to live in a place where there aren't alot of gamers. I am very social but finding gamers isn't easy. Some places (maybe where you live) may have plenty of gamers but there are alot of us who live in areas that do not have alot of gamers.

I have met many gamers here in Melbourne who assure me that Melbourne has not got many gamers. They're wrong.

One summer I worked in a country pub as a cook it was a town of 700 people. It had an active Diplomacy group. Of those 7 guys, 3 were former gamers. While talking to people in that town, 4 others expressed an interest in gaming with me. Also, one guy who came to the pub every Sunday to play chess with his friend asked if I was the guy who wrote d4-d4. I didn't game there because I still had my group back down in the city, but I could have. Yes, even in that crappy little country village, I could have gamed, tossing my dice among the canola.

Gamers aren't always everywhere, but geeks certainly are, and the geek --> gamer conversion is easy. :D

It seems you've still not read about Getting a game group and keeping it (http://www.gamecircle.org/modules/AMS/article.php?storyid=11). You should go do it. If nothing else, it's a jolt of optimism for you.

Quote from: JimBobOzI happen to know "industry insiders", and the simple fact is that they have no more of a clue how many gamers there are out there actually gaming than do you or I.

While this may be true they also probably have information we don't and I would trust their statements of "the gamer pool is down" over the words of people who are not in the industry and don't have that information.

Let's face it:  MMO's, Computer Games and other things are taking people away from gaming.   MMO's are simply easier then running a rpg.

Quote from: JimBobOzWhat matters is not how many gamers there are overall, but how many you personally know.

I disagree.  What if there are 6 gamers in my area and they are all in a group already and aren't taking any more people (This is being pulled from my head, I am not saying there are 6 gamers in my area).  The amount of people does matter

Quote from: JimBobOzThe gamers are out there, you just have to find them. You find them by being sociable.

I have done that and have been doing that with no luck

I think it's seriously time for me to consider walking away from this hobby.  

I have some thinking to do

"I can't get gamers."
"Have you tried X?"
"There's no gamers in my town."
"There could be. Have you tried X?"
"It's hopeless."
"No, it isn't. Try X. Or hell, even Y or Z."
"I can't do anything, it's hopeless, I'm giving up."

Well, if you are lazy, unsociable and relentlessly negative, then yes you'll have trouble.

I knew a guy who was unemployed for about eight years straight. Why? Well, he only applied for one job every three months, that was perhaps part of the problem. Knew another guy who was single and unhappy about it for several years. Why? Well, he never asked women out, and when he talked to people at parties, if they weren't a single woman he just walked away without any further words.

If you don't try, you fail. Amazing, that.

Quote from: JimBobOz"I can't get gamers."
"Have you tried X?"
"There's no gamers in my town."
"There could be. Have you tried X?"
"It's hopeless."
"No, it isn't. Try X. Or hell, even Y or Z."
"I can't do anything, it's hopeless, I'm giving up."

Well, if you are lazy, unsociable and relentlessly negative, then yes you'll have trouble.

If you don't try, you fail. Amazing, that.

But I have tried.  Right now I have started a Yahoo group trying to find people in my area.   After that I am going to give up.

And you can stick your fingers in your ears and say "Nah Nah Nah" but I do believe the rpg insiders that the gamer population has shrunk.  You will just have to accept that in some areas there may not be the gamers that you have in your area.

You have alot of gamers in your area? Great.  Not everyone does.  The gamer population is shrinking and some people are suffering more then others.

Non-gamers is the answer Blue Devil. Get new folks into your games and the hobby. Non-gamers.

Regards,
David R

You started a yahoo group. That's excellent. There are other things you can do, too. I've twice linked you to my article about that, but here it is again (http://cheetoism.pbwiki.com/Getting+a+Game+Group).

There are lots of gamers out there, more than you think. And there are far more people who might give gaming a go if you asked them. Saying that as a gamer you won't ask non-gamers to game is like being 45 years old and saying you'll only ask out virgins. You can do that if you want, but you're really limiting your options.

The latest issue of Cerise has got an article on How to Make New Gamers (http://cerise.theirisnetwork.org/?p=63). It's pretty good, go read it.

Quote from: JimBobOzOne thing the diagramme doesn't show is the strength of each connection. It doesn't distinguish between "see him every day at work, talk to him but if I left the job would never talk to him again," and "my husband."

Here's one with jump numbers...er...relationship strengths (http://www.phreeow.net/starmap.svg) as line weight.

Quote from: JimBobOzThe latest issue of Cerise has got an article on How to Make New Gamers (http://cerise.theirisnetwork.org/?p=63). It's pretty good, go read it.

Very interesting article.  The majority of the gamers I used to game with were people who had never gamed before and I tought how to play (Gamers I made).

Sometimes it works out, sometimes it does.

Thanks for pointing out the article though.  It's a good read.

Quote from: JimBobOzOr rather, the guy who posted it originally as a social map on a university site gets major geek points for slipping it in, see here (http://www.istheory.yorku.ca/socialnetworktheory.htm). In any case, it illustrated things well, yes? :D

Curses! Foiled again!

(Although I'd swear that the little x'd boxes on the left look like part of the Australian Sub-Arm.)

Although indications are that the gamer population may be shrinking as it's aging, I've been continuously expanding my gamer connections and gaming pool during my gaming "career".  As a result, from my perspective it's impossible to state that there are less gamers; contrary to other people's observations, mine are of an ever-increasing gamer community.  My gaming has never been better or more plentiful.

Part of these networking connections have required a good measure of effort.  I have had times in the past when my husband and I thought, "That's it -- we've exhausted the gamer pool."  But we kept on joining clubs, trying demo games, getting involved in organising events, invitong new people, etc.  Last winter, I tried to put together some notes on what has worked in our community; they're found on this wiki (http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Seattle_Gamers_Assemble%21).  The two that would be of interest here are Forming a Gaming Community (http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Forming_a_Gaming_Community), which has many similarities to Jim Bob's articles, and Weekly Short-Shots (http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Weekly_Short-Shots), where I describe how our club created weekly events that have provided us with a lot of good gaming, new players, new contacts, and overall vitality.

I want to stress that this kind of endeavour rarely starts strong.  The weekly games floundered for a long time until we managed to learn from mistakes, work around hurdles, and pour enough energy into them to make them strong.  Nowadays, the calendar is booked six to eight weeks in advance, but for the first couple of years or so, we had many cancelled events, players or GMs flaking out, miscommunications about time or location, lack of volunteers, etc..  It took some work and commitment to get things running smoothly.

Quote from: AnemoneAlthough indications are that the gamer population may be shrinking as it's aging, I've been continuously expanding my gamer connections and gaming pool during my gaming "career".  As a result, from my perspective it's impossible to state that there are less gamers; contrary to other people's observations, mine are of an ever-increasing gamer community.  My gaming has never been better or more plentiful.

Yep some areas are doing well but there are many areas where gaming is really hurting.

I happen to live in one of those areas.   I have started a Yahoo group as I mentioned to JimBob.  I will give it a try to find gamers (I have tried many other different ways such as through the FLGS's, Game related sites to find gamers around me, etc but that hasn't worked) and if it doesn't work then it was a good try.

I can just put my remaining books on ebay and walk away from the hobby.