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There have been a few recent announcements that make me wonder about the viability of Kickstarter--and I am not talking about those developers who promise and never deliver or are extremely late.  I am more concerned about the logistics of the system.

From what I understand, the whole original point of Kickstarter was for projects to get "seed money", enough money to produce the product, so that they can then continue with a traditional business model.  A lot of larger RPG developers seem to have done this.  But recent announcements give me pause.

Evil Hat has done several Kickstarters for their products, but recently they have to retrench due to having too many products:

https://www.evilhat.com/home/refocused-resized-hat-mode-activated/

John Wick recently came across a similar issue--he had two big Kickstarters, one which got a lot of capital, yet things are being retrenched.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?5783-John-Wick-Presents-Lays-Off-7th-Sea-Staff

Finally, while not as bad, I am a little confused by Monte Cook's latest Kickstarter.  Invisible Sun was a success, but he's adding a second Kickstart to fund a "reprinting" of the core box, by offering various things for those that already have the cube, such as the supplements.  This seems a little strange--if the product is something that's supposed to be a hit, shouldn't the initial build have given them enough money to prime the pump.  (Of course that thing is expensive, but it feels like perhaps it should be a premium product that doesn't get reprinted often).

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/montecookgames/invisible-sun-return-to-the-actuality

So I have to wonder, is the trend toward Kickstarters making the larger publishers not see certain economic realities.  Since most of the core fan base will probably back a KS for a well-demanded product, are they making it impossible to use it the way it's intended, to bootstrap the business to be self-sustaining without going through Kickstarter?  It seems like larger companies like the videogame folks don't have this problem, and it works as intended as a way to get development finished and the item sold in traditional venues.  

Any thoughts?

I know PEG mainly does Kickstarters now as a form of marketing (they say so in their Kickstarters).

Buuuut, preorders are always extremely good for a company. You get that money sooner and can do more things with it. Pinnacle Entertainment Groups book quality has went up by a lot since they started using Kickstarter.

I think it's fine. KS is helping non-D&D publications actually get some capital and the companies that do the best KS would probably survive without the service but with less money.

Quote from: JRT;1063459Finally, while not as bad, I am a little confused by Monte Cook's latest Kickstarter.  Invisible Sun was a success, but he's adding a second Kickstart to fund a "reprinting" of the core box, by offering various things for those that already have the cube, such as the supplements.  This seems a little strange--if the product is something that's supposed to be a hit, shouldn't the initial build have given them enough money to prime the pump.  (Of course that thing is expensive, but it feels like perhaps it should be a premium product that doesn't get reprinted often).

On the Monte side, I think Kickstarter does a couple of things for him. It allows for a precise way to calculate how much inventory needs to be created by basically moving it into a pre-order system. How many people out there are still interested after that initial print run? It's been really hard for companies to truly gauge interest in a product. People often say one thing, but put their money elsewhere. It also allows him to order a print run in bulk, all at one time, which is cheaper. Those that didn't buy invis sun last time and wanted it should know to pick it up this run because it'll likely go out of print again shortly after. Finally Monte uses kickstarter heavily for marketing. It creates events for him to focus on, he can put out emails to everyone who bought in to an earlier "kickstarter event", and kickstarter tends to create it's own social media frenzy.

I don't think Monte is running into crash strap issues as he's been in the game for a long time and he doesn't seem to be expanding his company out all that much. I think he's pretty much embraced the new KS RPG business model of big kickstarter launch event with a lot of cash coming in, not much in sales after, then another big KS launch. PEG is doing this now too, but that company also has Shane who's been in the game nearly as long as Monte has.

I could easily see this model trip up a lot of companies especially if they don't have business experience(which a lot of rpg companies don't). Get a huge influx of cash, sales past that are nothing, plan on another KS for a cash infusion to keep the company running and if that KS goes long or your costs are high you're dead in the water.

I'm not sure why we're seeing this in rpg companies and not so much in other areas. Maybe because rpg companies are smaller and less experienced. Might be because they assume a business model(long tail of sales) that other companies don't and trip up when sales don't work out that way. Video game companies are pretty experienced with a large bulk sale, then starving until the next game comes out. Boardgames on KS seem pretty popular as well, but I don't know enough about that industry to say what, if any, problems KS is creating for them.

Ebooks and PoD books can be handled through various venues once the initial KS goes through.  However, boxes, dice and various other widgets don't work with a PoD system.  Second, third, etc Kickstarters allow for buying physical stuff in bulk while guaranteeing the items will be sold.  

Think of it as Periodic Print on Demand.

Here's why I love Kickstarter and see no value in "becoming traditonal".  In order of importance:

1. Kickstarter is a business model that allows you to price discriminate to offer more value to premium customers. There is virtually no other way to do this. Given the lop-sided holdings of wealth and income in our society, there is a sub-set of consumers who are happy to allocate a lot of money to their favorite hobby, and a large sub-set with no money to spare, and having a way to be able to offer more value to the former and still deliver product to the latter is amazing. For instance, my top backer on Player's Companion spent $5,000. That is worth more than 500 PDF backers. In an era when tabletop game sales are typically measured in hundreds or low thousands of units, that's simply spectacular.

2. Kickstarter allows me to get funds upfront. Piracy of PDFs is endemic in our industry. Every PDF book is freely available to anyone who wants to pirate it, and lots of people do. With a solid Kickstarter, it becomes a lot less painful to see the product be pirated.

3. Kickstarter allows me to modify my products based on feedback from the backers. For instance, in Domains at War, the players clamored for a platoon-scale system for combat that was a bit smaller scale than I had planned (company). But when enough major backers lined up to support it, I made it happen, and the product is better for it. In this way, Kickstarter takes the place of the alpha and beta test phases of a videogame.

4. Kickstarter has itself become a marketing and distribution platform. Some of "my" customers are actually fans of crowdfunding. If I did not do a Kickstarter, I would not reach those fans.

5. Kickstarter allows your fans to feel ownership in your product and encourages them to market it. Tons of people who have backed art in ACKS have later shown off the art and bragged about it. It makes the backer into a marketer.

For all of these reasons I would Kickstart a product regardless of how much funding I had or didn't have. It simply is a smart way to do business.

That said, most of you are aware that I did have one near-catastrophe with Kickstarter, on the Dwimmermount project, which ended up being several years late and cost me $20,000 in losses out of my pocket. So there are definitely ways to ruin your business with crowdfuning; I sure almost did.

A print run of a game is a significant investment for a small company. A well run Kickstarter campaign basically provides pre-orders + money for the first print run so the company doesn't have to tie up their own capital in it. It really makes a lot of sense, for fairly niche products that are largely targeted at existing fans.

It also makes sense even for larger companies that can afford the upfront development and production costs. I'm sure Steve Jackson could have afforded the cost of re-releasing The Fantasy Trip but the kickstarter provided visibility for the new product, provided them some gauge of interest to help them determine the size of the first print run. If futures sales ultimately flop the company isn't really out anything and they have still pleased existing fans who have been asking for a re-issue of the game for decades.


As far as it leading to the problems for companies that over promise, that is always an issue in hobby businesses where the owners often put the hobby side over good business practices. Under estimating production costs, shipping etc have caused several companies serious issues. Even experienced developers have gotten bit by that on occasion, things change rapidly, POD, and 3D printing have vastly changed the costs and means of production for small runs of a product. Something produced 5 years ago, might need a complete overhaul to take advantage of the changes in technology since the last run.

I don't think video games have any comparison to a physical RPG product. Much higher volume and little to no physical component.

This is a very interesting discussion and I am looking forward to hearing more thoughts. Big thanks to everyone!

I'd also like anyone's thoughts on how Goodman Games and Sine Nomine do their Kickstarters in comparison to others. I've been backers for both, but I'd like to see other peoples' experiences and comparisons.

Quote from: amacris;1063495That said, most of you are aware that I did have one near-catastrophe with Kickstarter, on the Dwimmermount project, which ended up being several years late and cost me $20,000 in losses out of my pocket. So there are definitely ways to ruin your business with crowdfuning; I sure almost did.

Ouch! Have you done a post-mortem blog about what happened?

If not, would you post about it here?

And in retrospect, was saving Dwimmermount the right decision? If you had to return to the scene of the crime, what would you do now that you didn't do then?

Quote from: JRT;1063459...

So I have to wonder, is the trend toward Kickstarters making the larger publishers not see certain economic realities.  Since most of the core fan base will probably back a KS for a well-demanded product, are they making it impossible to use it the way it's intended, to bootstrap the business to be self-sustaining without going through Kickstarter?  It seems like larger companies like the videogame folks don't have this problem, and it works as intended as a way to get development finished and the item sold in traditional venues.  

Any thoughts?

1) Strictly speaking, you're right. It's not being used to bootstrap a company. It's being used to bootstrap a product.
2) Because the demand - supply cycle feedback is so damn successful that you can continually bootstrap products and no one bats an eyelash at it. If you fail? So what? There's other product bootstrappers waiting in the wings to take your place.
3) Gaming Nerds make bad business people. This stereotype keeps being reinforced with each passing generation.

A savvy business person would probably push up the buy-in a bit, and then show a slice of the pie being dedicated to business expenses, start up costs, etc. Most people would likely complain. They just want cool shit for the cheapest price possible. "I'm not paying for your business."

Quote from: Spinachcat;1063521Ouch! Have you done a post-mortem blog about what happened?

On the Dwimmermount thing, it was a pretty public failure and one of the early "how not to do things" lessons people point to for rpgs. Basically the product was being written by a third party with Autarch as the front/publisher. The third party ran into a lot of personal/family issues and sort of dropped off the map. That left Autarch to scramble and deliver on the kickstarter which they eventually did, obviously very late and over budget.

There were a lot of early RPG kickstarters like that. I remember Evil Beagle's Shaintar being another victim of something like this. The creator ran into personal issues and the product went real long. Honestly my impression of these kickstarters gone wrong is that they become personal nightmares for the people involved because they end up slaved to getting the product out years after the fact and are dealing with the constant displeasure of the fans they're trying to create content for. The #1 fix for this problem has been to not kickstart anything that isn't already basically written in the rough draft and try to do the same for bonus content. Basically let the KS be about fine tuning what's already written, adding art, play testing, paying for editing, etc rather than paying to write it in the first place.

Dwimmermount was also ridiculously underpriced. $10 for a PDF of a megadungeon? And what, $50 for a 600 page hardcover book plus two other small softcover books?

Still, a lot of that was filler, due to the OSR's insistence that 1e AD&D was icky or whatever, yet then has to add everything in 1e to either LL (B/X) or 0E (S&W)

Quote from: JRT;1063459There have been a few recent announcements that make me wonder about the viability of Kickstarter--and I am not talking about those developers who promise and never deliver or are extremely late.  I am more concerned about the logistics of the system.

Finally, while not as bad, I am a little confused by Monte Cook's latest Kickstarter.  Invisible Sun was a success, but he's adding a second Kickstart to fund a "reprinting" of the core box, by offering various things for those that already have the cube, such as the supplements.  This seems a little strange--if the product is something that's supposed to be a hit, shouldn't the initial build have given them enough money to prime the pump.  (Of course that thing is expensive, but it feels like perhaps it should be a premium product that doesn't get reprinted often).

So I have to wonder, is the trend toward Kickstarters making the larger publishers not see certain economic realities.  Since most of the core fan base will probably back a KS for a well-demanded product, are they making it impossible to use it the way it's intended, to bootstrap the business to be self-sustaining without going through Kickstarter?  It seems like larger companies like the videogame folks don't have this problem, and it works as intended as a way to get development finished and the item sold in traditional venues.  

Any thoughts?

1: You really do not understand the logistics then.

2: You really do not understand the logistics then.

3: You really do not understand the logistics then.

4: You really do not understand the logistics then.

x1: ahem... Ok. We go over this ALOT over on BGG. There are way way too many problems to list them all that the average joe and the average KS designer utterly fail to realize.

The biggest is the sheer logistics of running a KS instead of going to a publisher. 90% of the designers going to KS have these stars in their eyes about how now THEY are going to get ALL the money those mean ol publishers keep for themselves! No more 5% royalty! No more!

Aaaand promptly learn the hard way just how much goes into publishing a game. Because now YOU are paying for ALL of that. The artists, the printing, boxing, shipping, taxes. Not so mention any possible advertising you payed for. And possibly OTHER expenses. MORE if your game is art heavy or has alot of minis. MORE if you are shipping overseas. MORE if you plan to go retail.

Some KS are lucky if they break even. Theres lots of designer blogs about how in the end they either failed, or had to fulfill the KS out of their own pocket after all the funding was spent.

x2: Then there is the OTHER trip up. KS and CF in general are mercurial. It is of impossible to tell what will do well and what wont. Even product with alot of hype or fans it can fizzle. Or just break even. And this can tie back in to point x1. Under-performing in backers can actually add MORE unforeseen cost in the form of not meeting a certain target number to get a printing discount. There is also the advertising problem. Which brings us to...

X3: Then there is another trip up. No one will buy a product if you forgot to tell them it exists. This one comes up way too often. Designers putting their grand KS up. THEN announcing it. Or worse. Announcing it late into the KS because they can not figure out why only crickets are backing? You really need to announce your game ahead of the KS and get people aware, or better yet, interested in your product.

x4: Of course some games do actually sell enough to fund a second project. The vast majority do not. Those that do well tend to be by those who have thought out every step and have a really good idea of each hurdle. OR, have actually completed most of the steps beforehand and just need funding to go to print. OR are actually gouging the backers to make a profit. You actually see this last one tried alot. And that trick usually only works once before backers catch on and tell  the designer to go to hell.

But point 1 is the main problem. Now YOU are the publisher. You may be lucky of you get even 5% back. You can reduce that profit loss in a few ways. But then it becomes a much longer task as you become more than just the publisher and designer.

And this is not even touching on the growing problem that backers are getting increasingly wary of backing games due to the many many many scams or failures that left them with neither a product or a refund.

Hope that helps.

Quote from: Dracones;1063532On the Dwimmermount thing, it was a pretty public failure and one of the early "how not to do things" lessons people point to for rpgs.

The Dwimmer Fiasco was heavily discussed here before, during and after. However, the rescuing of the Dwimmermount Kickstarter, that process and its aftermath are areas I haven't heard much about. And since the publisher who lost $20k on rescuing the project is a poster here, its an opportunity to hear the post-KS facts firsthand.

Quote from: Dracones;1063532The #1 fix for this problem has been to not kickstart anything that isn't already basically written in the rough draft and try to do the same for bonus content. Basically let the KS be about fine tuning what's already written, adding art, play testing, paying for editing, etc rather than paying to write it in the first place.

Absolutely! Kevin Crawford of Sine Nomine stands by that heavily and I agree with that idea.

Quote from: Omega;1063536We go over this ALOT over on BGG.

Is there a particular thread that you would recommend reading?

RPGs have an easier time on Kickstarter because of PDF/POD for a book is easy and Amazon / DriveThruRPG act as key distribution networks. Boardgames don't have those advantages.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1063521Ouch! Have you done a post-mortem blog about what happened?

If not, would you post about it here?

And in retrospect, was saving Dwimmermount the right decision? If you had to return to the scene of the crime, what would you do now that you didn't do then?

I haven't ever done a post-mortem blog. I'm happy to discuss it here. I will do my best to recount it from memory. If anyone spots any errors, please let me know.

After the success of our ACKS and Player's Companion Kickstarters, I approached James Mal about doing a Dwimmermount Kickstarter. James was at that time a columnist for me at The Escapist penning "Days of High Adventure" and an avid blogger so we had a good working relationship. He was already very interested in doing a Kickstarter but at the time it was more difficult to do crowdfunding if you were not a US citizen. I offered, and he agreed, that Autarch would "front" the Kickstarter, setting it up, running it on the back-end, and handling customer relations, printing, and distribution. He, in turn, would collect the funds and manage the writing and production. It was not a work-for-hire; James was the senior partner and we were more of a shell that allowed him to tap KS. The idea was that Autarch would later benefit from revenue on the ongoing sales and from the publicity of having ACKS be supported by Dwimmermount.

We duly agreed, launched the KS, and raised a large sum of funds - the most we've done before or after (sadly). Dwimmermount was not in a state of great detail when the project began, but it was my presumption that this would simply be a matter of James fleshing out his GM notes etc. I was planning to work on our own Kickstarter, for Domains at War, so my business partner at the time, Tavis Allison, took on the management of the Dwimmermount KS.

Tavis did an able job, and initially things seemed to be going well. But an early alpha of the dungeon was widely ridiculed ("rats with copper pieces") and demoralized James Mal badly - a situation worsened by some severe health and family issues that rose up. Thereafter James began to have trouble meeting his deadlines and communication became more erratic. Tavis attempted to fill the gap but he also ran into some tough times as he and his wife began a divorce. Meanwhile, I was in the middle of trying to sell the Escapist (my day job), dealing with a sick wife (mito disease), and trying to do Domains at War. So I wasn't giving Dwimmermount my full attention either.

Tensions ran higher and higher as the project became more and more overdue. At some point Tavis and James entirely stopped communicating. I could not pretend to know the full reasons why. After weeks of trying to get in touch with James, ultimately Tavis and I were eventually able to reach him through his wife. We explained that there was an enormous personal liability associated with Dwimmermount that would fall on all of us if we did not release a product. He did not feel like he could finish it. So, after negotiation, we revised our agreement such that (a) Autarch received creative control - remember, up until that point, we only had publishing rights, no creative control - and (b) James returned all unspent funds for our use on art, layout, and production (up to that point he'd had the funds). Unfortunately "all unspent funds" was a small fraction of the original fundraising effort as much of the money had been spent by James on his expenses whilst writing.

I essentially worked a miserable six months of nights and weekends to finish the book. I ended up writing about 150,000 words to finish Dwimmermount, roughly doubling the content that had been created in the two years prior, and we released the product. I had to put in a capital contribution of about $20K to cover the costs of art, layout, and printing. I do not think it was a mistake to do this; it was the honorable course of action to our patrons who had backed and believed in us. The mistakes were what came before.

I can't say it was a profitable decision, though. When it was released, Dwimmermount did not sell much at all. A lot of attention in the OSR had either turned to 5E or to much more 'experimental' products; not only that, a lot of other megadungeons had been released. Moreover, James' blogging had dried up, and his audience drifted away when no dungeon was forthcoming. Finally, the megadungeon itself never really got a second look by those who had rejected it based on the early alpha. And, to be fair, a lot of people had bought-in because they wanted James Mal's Dwimmermount, not "James Mal's partially-completed Dwimmermount with the other half by that guy who did that game that's like D&D but has spreadsheets".

Lessons learned:
1. Have the core product in alpha before you launch the Kickstarter.
2. Do not crowdfund on behalf of a third party in reliance of their deliverables. Only Kickstart your own projects that you creatively control and can deliver yourself.
3. Do not attempt to do two major crowdfunding efforts at the same time.

Quote from: JeremyR;1063534Dwimmermount was also ridiculously underpriced. $10 for a PDF of a megadungeon? And what, $50 for a 600 page hardcover book plus two other small softcover books?

Still, a lot of that was filler, due to the OSR's insistence that 1e AD&D was icky or whatever, yet then has to add everything in 1e to either LL (B/X) or 0E (S&W)

You're 100% correct. This was a huge error we made because we didn't know how long the product was going to be, and we all fell into a trap of promising more-awesome-stuff-to-come when initial feedback was negative, such that the book spun out of control in size and scope. Dreadful.

We eventually raised the price of Dwimmermount's hardcovers but even so they're not very profitable.

Quote from: amacris;1063595We eventually raised the price of Dwimmermount's hardcovers but even so they're not very profitable.

I bought one at Orc's Nest FLGS - so full retail price - it's a nice book, I remember the price seeming quite reasonable for Orc's Nest standards.

You did an heroic job on Dwimmermount Alex, and I for one very much appreciate what you did. I'm sorry to hear it cost you so much time and money.

Quote from: JRT;1063459Any thoughts?

Something about how books are published now seems to make Kickstarter more attractive to RPG companies big and small. If I was running such a company, Kickstarter would give me a target number of units to produce for customers, and a webpage to communicate to customers with. First, I'd have to know unit price before even doing a Kickstarter, as well as have a prototype already made.

Some start-ups think that Kickstarter will magically make their business financially sound for some reason.

No.

It's a flawed platform for any sort of venture.  It promotes paying for a dream that often does not come fulfilled as intended.  In any other business, if you were to be late, just late, delivering on a product, you'd be out of business.  But Kickstarter and other methods of payment for goods yet to be delivered, you can and often get away with month to multiple year long delays.  This is BAD business, but because 'eventually' most of the consumers get their products, they don't care.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1063610No.

It's a flawed platform for any sort of venture.  It promotes paying for a dream that often does not come fulfilled as intended.  In any other business, if you were to be late, just late, delivering on a product, you'd be out of business.  But Kickstarter and other methods of payment for goods yet to be delivered, you can and often get away with month to multiple year long delays.  This is BAD business, but because 'eventually' most of the consumers get their products, they don't care.

Id have to disagree. The failures are way eclipsed by the number of successes. Problem is the failures have at times been monsterous ones and that stands out. The scams stand out too like Doom that came to Atlantic city. And in that one the designers and artists were scammed too.

As for the consumer not caring. Its not that. Its the time factor and the same old damn song and dance 90% of the late ones give like its some sort of boilerplate now.
coming soon! Working on it! Coming soon! Working on it! on and on and on.

But at the end of the day most of the KS succeed. but when they fail. whooo. It can be nasty.

A real issue is how ubiquitous Kickstarter is and how they lack competition outside of something like Patreon (which is about as good of competition as Twitch is to YouTube and that hasn't prevented YouTube from going nuts either).

If I have any question on a KS I'm willing to forego all the meaningless flair/fluff stretch goals and pay the extra $5-$10 risk avoidance fee that is retail, and wait to see if the dream does actually see print.

If someone has put in their own elbow grease by writing it out on their own time, such that they can show they took the project as far as they possibly could on a shoestring, and now are only looking for funding to pay bills to 3rd parties required to make a physical object, then I'll back it.

I think particularly with RPGs, I want to wait and hear about what it is like in actual play, read detailed reviews, and so forth. A new RPG system is a big time investment for me, and it seems weird to me to pay sight unseen.

Pretty much the only Kickstarters I've backed have been when I personally know the creators - and even then it's unlikely for me.

Quote from: Omega;1063629Id have to disagree. The failures are way eclipsed by the number of successes. Problem is the failures have at times been monsterous ones and that stands out. The scams stand out too like Doom that came to Atlantic city. And in that one the designers and artists were scammed too.

As for the consumer not caring. Its not that. Its the time factor and the same old damn song and dance 90% of the late ones give like its some sort of boilerplate now.
coming soon! Working on it! Coming soon! Working on it! on and on and on.

But at the end of the day most of the KS succeed. but when they fail. whooo. It can be nasty.

How are they successes, when most of them cannot deliver on time?  In any other business that would cripple, but not KS or IGGs.  Those are failures.  And they teach businesses that it's OK to lie to the customer.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1063732How are they successes, when most of them cannot deliver on time?  In any other business that would cripple, but not KS or IGGs.  Those are failures.  And they teach businesses that it's OK to lie to the customer.

Everything is so very dark in Brady World....

I think KS is revolutionary for the RPG industry (and likely even bigger for the boardgame industry). Obviously there have been some high-profile disasters, but even Far West and Dwimmermount delivered in the end (YMMV as to the quality of what showed up).

There is murkiness on both sides (or all three sides if you include Kickstarter themselves) as to what constitutes an R&D gamble as opposed to a guaranteed pre-order service.

I didn't back either of those, and actually haven't have had a single RPG KS completely die on me. (I only have one like that, and it is a computer game that I was so sad to see fail). I have one (a cardgame / language tool thingy) that is almost exactly four years overdue, and I am still more confident than not that I will see it in the end (new management on board, regular FaceBook updates, etc).

I was very unhappy with the way that Arc Dream rolled out their recent KS for Delta Green (two KSs, actually), avoidably messy. From their perspective, they were paranoid about generating the kinds of risks and problems that others have faced.

But I really do think the key lessons have been learned, or offset. Shipping costs, which absolutely sunk more than a few early gaming Kickstarts, are now more manageable via BackerKit and whatnot. People (creators and backers) know better the risks of backing a project which isn't deep into Beta already. Stretch goals - another massive torpedo for several early Kickstarts - are now better identified and linked to the original vision.

Perfect? Far from it. But I am 100% on board with the business model, and I think it is simply fantastic for our hobby.

I should say that while I have little interest in Kickstarter projects personally, I agree it is a great business opportunity for RPGs in general.

If other people want to make Kickstarter projects and/or fund them, then great! I get to buy the game after it has been playtested, released, and reviewed.

I've only backed a couple of kickstarters. Personally I don't really like it. I understand why people use it. I think for Board Games it seems to be a nice fit (it allows for people to make gorgeous pieces and boards, which probably would be less appealing if they were constrained by more caution). But for RPGs, I feel like it is starting to create a cycle that might not be great for the industry.

Yes, it is.

It has shifted the risk from the producers to the consumers. Which results in little to no care about product quality on the side of producers.

Kickstarter I believe is a shortcut that encourages shoddy workmanship.

I bought a boardgame from a Kickstarter. The contents were low quality. And the company only sent out PDF copies of a misprinted card. Instead of actually priinting that card and sending it out complimentary to the backers. It was really crappy for them to do.

Then they turned around and made a new Kickstarter for an upgrade pack for said boardgame. And they almost had me with it. Until I realized that the contents are what they should have given the original backers of the fiirst Kickstarter in the first place for free. So I quickly withdrew my support.

I don't feel comfortable backing any more Kickstarters.

Quote from: jhkim;1063728I think particularly with RPGs, I want to wait and hear about what it is like in actual play, read detailed reviews, and so forth. A new RPG system is a big time investment for me, and it seems weird to me to pay sight unseen.

Pretty much the only Kickstarters I've backed have been when I personally know the creators - and even then it's unlikely for me.

I've only backed kick starters for well established products, Reaper for minis and Steve Jackson for TFT. Both well established companies and products I felt pretty comfortable I knew what I was getting. I'm pretty risk adverse when it comes to spending money.

I have backed a bunch of Kickstarters. I've been burned a couple times. I've also got some pretty amazing things out of it.

I get the perception that a KS would encourage creators to cut corners. At face value it appears the consumers are assuming all the risk. In my experience this has not born out.

From Numerna, to Zweihander, to the bunch of Castles & Crusades books, to Bruce Heard's Calidar... I've received GORGEOUS, wonderfully written, wonderfully designed books that oftentimes BLOW AWAY the quality of anything I could have dreamed of in the days of traditional publishing.

Sure, there's risk. But it's hardly a problem. It's about par with what I would consider standard risk. WAY more of the KS I have backed have a) completed in a reasonable amount of time and b) delivered high quality products that exceeded my expectations. I would not see the low-quality/high risk argument holding nearly as much water as the KS is awesome/fun/rewarding argument. I have way more examples of the later.

I have backed a number of Kickstarters and haven't been burned, yet.
The ones I have backed are mostly single books here and there without crazy stretch goals that are already written OR larger products from trusted sources...ACKS, TFT and Larry Harris' War Room spring to mind...and I have only started using it the last few years.  I'm sure that has decreased my risk factor.
I do like the model for both small press and niche items by larger companies.  I get stuff that may never make it into print otherwise.

@Trechriron
I had missed the previous Calidar KS, so I added on all the back stuff in the latest Kickstarter. It looked beautiful and I really liked Bruce Heard's Princess Ark stuff back in the day.  I am glad to hear it IS as good as it looks.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1063732How are they successes, when most of them cannot deliver on time?  In any other business that would cripple, but not KS or IGGs.

You're not familiar with the software industry, are you?  Having the desired feature set complete on time basically never happens, even if you're using the latest trendy "agile software development" method and only setting deadlines a week or two in advance.  We even have rules of thumb for estimating development time like "take your best estimate, double it, and increase the time scale by one step" (e.g., if you think it will take 3 hours, allocate 6 days), which are meant as jokes, but tend to be disturbingly close to accurate.

So, no, the inability to hit deadlines is not crippling in every line of business, and that applies regardless of whether you're crowdfunded, doing bespoke work at an hourly rate, or a full-time salaried employee.

Kickstarter also cuts out the suits. Instead of people with investment capital deciding what products exist, consumers get to assume the risk instead, normally at an overall cheaper rate because there isn't a middleman also trying to make money.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1063732How are they successes, when most of them cannot deliver on time?  In any other business that would cripple, but not KS or IGGs.  Those are failures.  And they teach businesses that it's OK to lie to the customer.

Um... you havent followed many published games then have you? Announced releases are missed by weeks, months, or longer.

And quite a few KS actually do meet their deadlines.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1063784I've only backed a couple of kickstarters. Personally I don't really like it. I understand why people use it. I think for Board Games it seems to be a nice fit (it allows for people to make gorgeous pieces and boards, which probably would be less appealing if they were constrained by more caution). But for RPGs, I feel like it is starting to create a cycle that might not be great for the industry.

How so? It is not much different from the myriad indie RPGs that have come out. Some seeing really low print runs. KS for these works as it can save you some expenses by knowing exactly how many people want a copy.

I guess in a way KS is much akin to many POD services for RPGs. Except the RPG oft is not yet ready to print.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1063858Kickstarter also cuts out the suits. Instead of people with investment capital deciding what products exist, consumers get to assume the risk instead, normally at an overall cheaper rate because there isn't a middleman also trying to make money.

The problem crops up when the designer tries to charge the backers retail price as of all those middleman cuts. This is why I took to task that Traveller KS as they were charging retail prices.

Quote from: JRT;1063459...  It seems like larger companies like the videogame folks don't have this problem, and it works as intended as a way to get development finished and the item sold in traditional venues.  

Any thoughts?

There have been some pretty bad videogame kickstarters, but videogames barely are a drop in the bucket on kickstarter next to tabletop games.

Yes, Kickstarter and crowdfunding has largely become a pre-order system, and it doesn't really matter much IMO.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1063858Kickstarter also cuts out the suits. Instead of people with investment capital deciding what products exist, consumers get to assume the risk instead, normally at an overall cheaper rate because there isn't a middleman also trying to make money.

I think this is the greatest thing about kickstarter, it allows a mechanism for those niche products "experts" say won't sell. There are so many products beyond games that this applies to. There are so many products that we have today because somebody wanted it, and was told it was a bad idea by established companies so they had to start a business to make it.

How many things have we missed out on because the inventor sold the concept to a company that then just sat on it, or joined forces with an established company that then forced their conservative ideas changes changing the product into something far less innovative and interesting, or the inventor just stuck the design back in a drawer because they didn't have the financial means to bring it to market?
Kickstarter provides a way for regular people to back an idea with relatively minimal risk to all. Lots of people have bought shares in a startup that failed, so not seeing how the occasional kickstarter crashing and burning is a serious problem. All investment in a future product involves some risk.  

Quote from: Omega;1063977Um... you havent followed many published games then have you? Announced releases are missed by weeks, months, or longer.

And quite a few KS actually do meet their deadlines.

Again, not just games, delays are quite common in many industries and involve large multinational corporations as well as one man garage shops. Perhaps people are familiar with the F-35? Tesla Model 3? Apple I Phone?

Quote from: happyhermit;1063989Yes, Kickstarter and crowdfunding has largely become a pre-order system, and it doesn't really matter much IMO.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1063994Lots of people have bought shares in a startup that failed, so not seeing how the occasional kickstarter crashing and burning is a serious problem. All investment in a future product involves some risk.

Toadmaster's comment is precisely why I think it does matter that a lot of people are treating crowdfunding as nothing more than a pre-order system.  You're backing (or, if you prefer, "investing in", although I don't really think that's accurate either) something which frequently hasn't been developed yet, and may not have even been fully designed yet.  It's not a proper pre-order because the product development is still in an early enough stage that it could never be completed for any number of valid, legitimate reasons, but, if you're in the "pre-order" mindset, then the obvious conclusion when it ships late (or not at all) is that the project creator was a fraud, just out to scam people for a quick buck with no intention to ever deliver anything.  Which is not to say those people don't exist, but I've never seen any evidence to support the idea that fraud is the most common cause for failed/abandoned kickstarters.

Of course, there are exceptions, where the crowdfunding campaign really is, for all intents and purposes, a pre-order for a nearly-complete product which just needs to have a bit of final polish paid for.  Kevin Crawford/Sine Nomine Games is a prime example of this.  But that's the exception, not the rule.

Quote from: Omega;1063980The problem crops up when the designer tries to charge the backers retail price as of all those middleman cuts. This is why I took to task that Traveller KS as they were charging retail prices.

It's not just kickstarter it's even with PDF version of rpgs. So one does not have tho pay a printer nor shipping or distribution costs yet somehow the PDF is 5-10$ cheaper if that. Then they try and the usual bullshit of having to pay writers and artist. All fine yet they pocket the savings and charge close to the same price as print.

Quote from: sureshot;1064034It's not just kickstarter it's even with PDF version of rpgs. So one does not have tho pay a printer nor shipping or distribution costs yet somehow the PDF is 5-10$ cheaper if that. Then they try and the usual bullshit of having to pay writers and artist. All fine yet they pocket the savings and charge close to the same price as print.

They have to pay writers, the artist, the editor (hopefully there is one), and DriveThru's 30% fee.  It's not like costs go to $0 by using a PDF instead of a printed book.

Quote from: Apparition;1064100They have to pay writers, the artist, the editor (hopefully there is one), and DriveThru's 30% fee.  It's not like costs go to $0 by using a PDF instead of a printed book.

Exactly. As I'm actually in the process of getting a book ready I can tell you with certainty that the actual print cost isn't even half the expense of producing a book and that more than half of the rest of the cost has been things anyone not actually doing it would not even think of... taxes, lawyer fees to form an S-corp/LLC to limit potential losses, web hosting and development for a promotional site, the work of a copy editor, credit card processing (if you put a store on the site) and third-party processing (ex. DriveThruRPG), etc.

Even at bargain basement prices ($0.03 a word, $25 for a half page of line art) my player's guide is clocking in at 133,000 words (so $4000 and 140-ish pages of text) and 80 pieces of art (about $2000... though more expensive color art is a stretch goal... particularly since I do expect more PDF than physical sales). That's $6-10k just for content, plus another $10k in cost of setting up business.

So if I sold 1000 units I'd need about $16-20 on my end for the PDF just to break even. With DriveThruRPG's cut I'd need to sell the PDF at nearly $25-30 just to break even. If I sold the PDF for $35, I'd only make about $3.50 profit on each sale after DTRPG's cut and my expenses... so less money than I make in a month at my day job for easily 10x the effort and that's only if I managed to actually sell 1000 units.

So to summarize for anyone who thinks the PDFs are too expensive... You're actually getting a bargain.

Quote from: Chris24601;1064109So to summarize for anyone who thinks the PDFs are too expensive... You're actually getting a bargain.

I was referring to physical copies. But even so most small publishers do not go through so many processes to get a book out. Art is going to be the main hurdle. Most books are written by the designer themselves. So citing a price there seems a little odd. But I could see a publisher going that route.

Quote from: Omega;1064128I was referring to physical copies. But even so most small publishers do not go through so many processes to get a book out. Art is going to be the main hurdle. Most books are written by the designer themselves. So citing a price there seems a little odd. But I could see a publisher going that route.

You cite a price there because the designer deserves to be compensated for their writing... or should they have devoted hundreds of hours towards the project for free?

What if the designer is also an artist? Are they supposed to do all the artwork for free too and then release the PDF for free just because they did all the work themselves instead of hiring someone else to do it?

Quote from: Chris24601;1064144You cite a price there because the designer deserves to be compensated for their writing... or should they have devoted hundreds of hours towards the project for free?

What if the designer is also an artist? Are they supposed to do all the artwork for free too and then release the PDF for free just because they did all the work themselves instead of hiring someone else to do it?

I thought the designer- publisher keeps the net income on the work...

BTW re art, I can never understand why small print publishers buy artwork when they could get a much cheaper non exclusive licence. I have very rarely seen this used - an exception being The Hero's Journey which uses Mentzer art.

I think Kickstarter (and Indiegogo) has been great for RPGs (my delivery success rate's like 23/25 or better). Lots of times a high-quality, reliable small publisher doesn't have enough money to pay production costs up front for a product even where he knows there's good demand (much less something with uncertain demand). KS helps spread those up front costs to willing participants (like me). I don't see how this hurts the community or hobby or whatever in any way. For the people involved in these projects (like me), seems like it has been quite a good choice (because they wouldn't exist otherwise) and those that didn't participate can still buy it later (you're welcome). Plus, in no way does it prevent anyone with means from funding a project the old fashioned way if they want.

Sure, some projects have failed, but over the years, I have bought plenty of material funded the old fashioned way (usually big corporate funded stuff) that turned out to be total garbage and a 100% loss on my money. /shrug

I genuinely think these crowdfunding platforms have helped free us from dependence on big corporate capital gatekeepers, opening the door for lots of projects from small folks that would never have seen the light of day otherwise.

Quote from: Apparition;1064100They have to pay writers, the artist, the editor (hopefully there is one), and DriveThru's 30% fee.  It's not like costs go to $0 by using a PDF instead of a printed book.

I never said 0$ at the same time give me a reason to buy the PDF as well. If for example the print version is 40$ and the PDF is 35$ how am I exactly saving on purchasing the PDF. I also never said don't pay anyone don't also try and tell them that they don't price gouge the customer.

Quote from: Chris24601;1064109So to summarize for anyone who thinks the PDFs are too expensive... You're actually getting a bargain.

If the PDf price is not too much more than the print version. It needs to be a bargain both ways not just for the publisher. Note I'm not saying that PDFs are a bad thing I am slowing switching over between getting tired of buying the more expensive print copies and getting older and tired of lugging books around they are a useful tool to have. At the same time don't think your doing me a major favor as a rpg publisher if your PDF version is 5$ less or the same price as the print copy either.

I'm not one of those dumb gamers who don't think that rpg publishers should be compensated. I all for making money and profit. At the same time don't tell us your saving costs by using the PDF format then charge me like you would a print copy. To me a fair price for a 40$ print book would be at 30$. Anything more I have no reason to buy the PDF or just buy it when it's on sale. As the publisher needs to be compensated for their work they also need to give us the consumers a reason to buy PDF as well. Even then for a 30$ PDF it better damn well be more than 30-40 pages or your just simply ripping off the fanbase imo.

Quote from: S'mon;1064150I thought the designer- publisher keeps the net income on the work...

They do. But you need to know the pay rate of you're going to have any net income to speak of. If you assign the value of your writing at zero then you're giving away your work for free. I'm not a charity.

As to art, the bargain basement prices ($25 for half-page line art) I quoted were for non-exclusive use. Prices for exclusive use are significantly more depending on the artist. I'm fortunate that I'll be able to do a lot of the art myself, but I still had to spend more than I would have if I'd not been doing this project on art resources.

Quote from: sureshotAt the same time don't tell us your saving costs by using the PDF format then charge me like you would a print copy. To me a fair price for a 40$ print book would be at 30$. Anything more I have no reason to buy the PDF or just buy it when it's on sale.

I'm not sure some people really understand how small a part of the overall cost is in printing physical books. The last quote I had for my book was $4.35 each for a 1000 book print run of 360 pages with black & white interiors or $7.49 each for the same with color interiors.

That's why the PDFs are often only $5-10 cheaper than the physical books. It's because that's all the difference that print costs account for in the final product.

Quote from: Chris24601;1064144You cite a price there because the designer deserves to be compensated for their writing... or should they have devoted hundreds of hours towards the project for free?

I guess the designer should charge what the market will bear. In most cases that is not very much. Although independent designer-publishers seem to do better than people doing work-for-hire, they're bearing the risk also.

My impression is that the great majority of designer-publishers are hobbyists and use print-on-demand services like Lulu so they don't risk being stuck with a garage full of unsold books. I think in the POD environment it's reasonable that pdfs should be a fair bit cheaper, since the customer bears the printing costs and the publisher is not bearing the risk of unsold copies.

Quote from: Chris24601;1064175That's why the PDFs are often only $5-10 cheaper than the physical books. It's because that's all the difference that print costs account for in the final product.

While I understand the economics of production, ultimately what you are running up against is perceived value of customers and possible numbers of units given the standards and size of the market.

When the perceived value doesn't match the price asked, your sales aren't going to be good. For many, just being a PDF is a significant negative, before other considerations of usability and how that might be used to increase (or decrease) perceived value.

With PDFs, if the price is perceived as extremely high from the buyer perspective, it seems to me that a higher rate of piracy is very likely.

So let me toss this out as a question - has commitment of the market to brokering PDFs actually created its own limitations to profitability, and is there an alternative?

Quote from: Chris24601;1064175They do. But you need to know the pay rate of you're going to have any net income to speak of. If you assign the value of your writing at zero then you're giving away your work for free. I'm not a charity.

As to art, the bargain basement prices ($25 for half-page line art) I quoted were for non-exclusive use. Prices for exclusive use are significantly more depending on the artist. I'm fortunate that I'll be able to do a lot of the art myself, but I still had to spend more than I would have if I'd not been doing this project on art resources.



I'm not sure some people really understand how small a part of the overall cost is in printing physical books. The last quote I had for my book was $4.35 each for a 1000 book print run of 360 pages with black & white interiors or $7.49 each for the same with color interiors.

That's why the PDFs are often only $5-10 cheaper than the physical books. It's because that's all the difference that print costs account for in the final product.

Fair enough and thank you for sharing the information. At the same time I agree with S'mon PDfs should be a little cheaper in that the customer has to assume the printing costs. Their is no distribution, shipping, or printing costs. Yes everyone involved in the production needs to be paid yet the costs of doing it in PDF just can't be the same as print. Publishers at least rpg publishers want to have it both ways and eat their cake too.

Quote from: sureshot;1064189Fair enough and thank you for sharing the information. At the same time I agree with S'mon PDfs should be a little cheaper in that the customer has to assume the printing costs. Their is no distribution, shipping, or printing costs. Yes everyone involved in the production needs to be paid yet the costs of doing it in PDF just can't be the same as print. Publishers at least rpg publishers want to have it both ways and eat their cake too.

Maybe I'm an oddball when it comes to PDFs but "print costs?" I thought the whole point of the PDFs was that you could throw them on a tablet and not have to lug around all that paper. I own a lot of RPG pdfs and I don't think I've ever printed anything other than character sheets off any of them.

My legit plan for pricing units is going to be totaling up all the expenses (including a fair rate for my writing and art which would be my profit) for the project and divide the cost for each item by whatever the print run ends being. PDFs will be less expensive by the cost of printing and shipping. I also plan to include a Book + PDF combo for a minimal extra charge (whatever the hosting costs for a secure online download site are when divided out as above) over the book alone since the customer is already covering their share of the expenses with their book purchase.

If that's not fair to both me and the customers I don't know what is.

Quote from: Chris24601;1064200Maybe I'm an oddball when it comes to PDFs but "print costs?" I thought the whole point of the PDFs was that you could throw them on a tablet and not have to lug around all that paper. I own a lot of RPG pdfs and I don't think I've ever printed anything other than character sheets off any of them.

If I'm going to use something, I print it. With an RPG product I need to be able to write on it, for one thing.

Really, even with stuff I'm not using, if I'm going to read it I tend to print it out first.  I don't like reading long pdfs.

Quote from: Chris24601;1064200Maybe I'm an oddball when it comes to PDFs but "print costs?" I thought the whole point of the PDFs was that you could throw them on a tablet and not have to lug around all that paper. I own a lot of RPG pdfs and I don't think I've ever printed anything other than character sheets off any of them.

My legit plan for pricing units is going to be totaling up all the expenses (including a fair rate for my writing and art which would be my profit) for the project and divide the cost for each item by whatever the print run ends being. PDFs will be less expensive by the cost of printing and shipping. I also plan to include a Book + PDF combo for a minimal extra charge (whatever the hosting costs for a secure online download site are when divided out as above) over the book alone since the customer is already covering their share of the expenses with their book purchase.

If that's not fair to both me and the customers I don't know what is.

Do what you need to do when it comes to your company. I ask that you also understand that the consumer needs to do what they as well. Too many companies just price gouge the consumer when it comes to PDfs imo. As for printing I only do it for short books. No way in hell would I print out say Hero System 6E. At the same time a PDf of both books is a pain to read because imoit's dense. I also found that once I switched to a flat screen monitor from a CRT monitor for my computer. It was easier on the eyes to read a PDF.

Well look at what we had back in the old days, people paying for a print run out of pocket and then having stacks of boxes of books around the house while trying to sell them bit by bit. This way we get a lot more stuff to choose from. If you want to be careful to not get burned its easy enough to:
1. Only back people with a proven track record.
2. Back stuff where you've gotten enough enjoyment out of the free contentthey given you (bloggers, webcomic artists, etc.) that they've given you that your backing is more of a reward for that than anything.
3. Just wait for the Kickstarter funded stuf to hit regular retail and be happy that Kickstarter allows for more stuff to get to that point so that you have more to choose from.

Thinking back to the kind of crap that I used to buy as a kid, so much 2ed splatbook crap (the crappy 2ed elf splatbook etc. etc.) that obviously wasn't a labor of love that was slapped together by some 20-something guy without much writing experience doing whatever kind of freelance work would pay the bills things are much better now that there's so much stuff that people really poured their hearts and souls into instead of a bunch of hastily written fluff written to kill out the page count. Don't see much of that anymoer even from the big names, just look at how 5ed has pretty much halted the splatbook treadmill compared to book after book in 3.5ed that were mostly just mined for feats an ignored otherwise.

Quote from: S'mon;1064201If I'm going to use something, I print it. With an RPG product I need to be able to write on it, for one thing. Really, even with stuff I'm not using, if I'm going to read it I tend to print it out first.  I don't like reading long pdfs.

But isn't that also the rub of the format?

A great many PDFs out there are not optimized for the format - for actual use of the capabilities of the format (linking, etc) - as well as the notion that if it is printed, you aren't going to use up your color ink cartridge printing stuff that doesn't need to be printed in order to use it. A friend of mine showed me some huge White Wolf PDFs, so full of large splashes of black and color which, ultimately, do not help you run or play the game. To me, that makes them a crap product AS PDFs.

Quote from: sureshot;1064189Fair enough and thank you for sharing the information. At the same time I agree with S'mon PDfs should be a little cheaper in that the customer has to assume the printing costs. Their is no distribution, shipping, or printing costs. Yes everyone involved in the production needs to be paid yet the costs of doing it in PDF just can't be the same as print. Publishers at least rpg publishers want to have it both ways and eat their cake too.

But there is a distribution cost.  DriveThruRPG charges a 30% fee.

Quote from: Chris24601;1064200Maybe I'm an oddball when it comes to PDFs but "print costs?" I thought the whole point of the PDFs was that you could throw them on a tablet and not have to lug around all that paper. I own a lot of RPG pdfs and I don't think I've ever printed anything other than character sheets off any of them.

My legit plan for pricing units is going to be totaling up all the expenses (including a fair rate for my writing and art which would be my profit) for the project and divide the cost for each item by whatever the print run ends being. PDFs will be less expensive by the cost of printing and shipping. I also plan to include a Book + PDF combo for a minimal extra charge (whatever the hosting costs for a secure online download site are when divided out as above) over the book alone since the customer is already covering their share of the expenses with their book purchase.

If that's not fair to both me and the customers I don't know what is.

You have to realize that you're talking with some luddite grognards who still think of books as entirely in the paper realm and want to ban electronic devices from the gaming table.  That will change as the younger generations who are used to electronic devices feel no need to use paper or printed books.  Me?  I hardly ever print anything, just character sheets if that.

Quote from: Lynn;1064257But isn't that also the rub of the format?

A great many PDFs out there are not optimized for the format - for actual use of the capabilities of the format (linking, etc) - as well as the notion that if it is printed, you aren't going to use up your color ink cartridge printing stuff that doesn't need to be printed in order to use it. A friend of mine showed me some huge White Wolf PDFs, so full of large splashes of black and color which, ultimately, do not help you run or play the game. To me, that makes them a crap product AS PDFs.

That's one of the reasons I'm going with a tablet friendly single column 6x9 format instead of the typical 8.5x11 two column format (the other being to keep the price on the Player's Guide half of the rules down to about $25-30 for a physical book and $19.95 for the PDF for a very low cost of entry).

I also plan on including a tablet version and a print-friendly version (i.e. only rule critical art and laid out with two book pages laid out on a single landscaped 8.5" x 11" page) in the PDF package since 6x9 would be rather wasteful on paper if you were to print the tablet version on normal paper.

Quote from: Apparition;1064279You have to realize that you're talking with some luddite grognards who still think of books as entirely in the paper realm and want to ban electronic devices from the gaming table.  That will change as the younger generations who are used to electronic devices feel no need to use paper or printed books.  Me?  I hardly ever print anything, just character sheets if that.

I was teaching some pretty nasty Contract Law in a tutorial today and the students relying on their phones & Ipads were completey lost. The students with paper notes & case printouts did much better. I see the same with RPGs.

Quote from: S'mon;1064286I was teaching some pretty nasty Contract Law in a tutorial today and the students relying on their phones & Ipads were completey lost. The students with paper notes & case printouts did much better. I see the same with RPGs.

Different devices and displays have their own user interface designs and conventions, and those very UIs that are highly functional for one type of task can be entirely horrible for something else. And sometimes, that is by design.

Did you ever wonder why it took so long to have supporting keyboards for the iPhone? Apple used its market lock to keep makers from getting their existing keyboards working with them. There was a healthy portable / foldable keyboard market in existence from the "PDA" days and makers wanting to get them working with the iPhone. Nope, Apple wanted to control that experience. Now we have a generation of people very deft with their thumbs but cannot really 'type'.

Quote from: Chris24601;1064284I also plan on including a tablet version and a print-friendly version (i.e. only rule critical art and laid out with two book pages laid out on a single landscaped 8.5" x 11" page) in the PDF package since 6x9 would be rather wasteful on paper if you were to print the tablet version on normal paper.

The more you optimize, the more desirable it becomes.

Quote from: S'mon;1064286I was teaching some pretty nasty Contract Law in a tutorial today and the students relying on their phones & Ipads were completey lost. The students with paper notes & case printouts did much better. I see the same with RPGs.

It depends on the person, although it's largely along generational lines.  I became an auditor for the United States federal government in 2005.  I had to take a ten month training course after getting the job.  We were all given over a dozen large textbooks and numerous printed examples.  I never used them.  Why?  Because all of the printed materials were also available in the government Intranet.  I used a second monitor to look up everything I needed, and maintain several hundred bookmarks in my web browser to this day.  Not to toot my own horn, but I've received numerous awards over the past ten years, and even a commendation from the government agency's commissioner five years ago.  I must be doing something right.

Over the past few years, I've been training new government auditors.  Starting four years ago, they aren't given any printed materials.  Everything is on the government Intranet, and as PDFs.  Trainee auditors can mark up the PDFs with annotations as they see fit.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1063521I'd also like anyone's thoughts on how Goodman Games and Sine Nomine do their Kickstarters in comparison to others. I've been backers for both, but I'd like to see other peoples' experiences and comparisons.

My A-list KS standard is North Wind Adventures:  Jeff Talanian delivers the goods, in as risk-free a manner as possible to KS backers.

Quote from: EOTB;1063726If I have any question on a KS I'm willing to forego all the meaningless flair/fluff stretch goals and pay the extra $5-$10 risk avoidance fee that is retail, and wait to see if the dream does actually see print.

Agreed.  I'm doing this more and more with projects that interest me and I'm sure will successfully fund, unless there's a significant discount to buying into the KS vs. full retail later.  If the project looks interesting, but I'm unsure about the team's ability to pull it off, I'll save it, and go back to it later if/after it delivers and pick it up then if I'm still interested.  

Quote from: Chainsaw;1064157I think Kickstarter (and Indiegogo) has been great for RPGs (my delivery success rate's like 23/25 or better). Lots of times a high-quality, reliable small publisher doesn't have enough money to pay production costs up front for a product even where he knows there's good demand (much less something with uncertain demand). KS helps spread those up front costs to willing participants (like me). I don't see how this hurts the community or hobby or whatever in any way. For the people involved in these projects (like me), seems like it has been quite a good choice (because they wouldn't exist otherwise) and those that didn't participate can still buy it later (you're welcome). Plus, in no way does it prevent anyone with means from funding a project the old fashioned way if they want.

The ideal of leveraging KS to help to establish a company or a product line, to push the boundaries for a game project that might otherwise never happen, has faded into practical non-existence vs. the now-common model for KS as a pre-order platform regardless of company/project size/scope.  I don't mind sharing risk as a consumer (or even as a publisher, although I've not done a KS myself to date), but I do miss the days when experimental projects were pushed to the public by publishers taking a risk to see whether their concept/format/whatever would capture sufficient interest to be possible.  That feels more artistically pure, but I'm sure if I ever come up with a $250K+ KS, I'll be smiling all the way to the bank just like the rest of the big bucks gang ;) :D

Quote from: Chainsaw;1064157Sure, some projects have failed, but over the years, I have bought plenty of material funded the old fashioned way (usually big corporate funded stuff) that turned out to be total garbage and a 100% loss on my money. /shrug

This is still one of my hang-ups:  what ideas/concepts do I have that merit/are worthy of a KS effort vs. just using it for whatever project I was going to do anyway.

Quote from: Chainsaw;1064157I genuinely think these crowdfunding platforms have helped free us from dependence on big corporate capital gatekeepers, opening the door for lots of projects from small folks that would never have seen the light of day otherwise.

Agreed completely!

Allan.

Flawed model or not PEG's most recent KS is already past 480K and they promise to deliver the PDF of the main book as soon as the KS money deposits. (Which is what they normally do)

Quote from: Apparition;1064292Over the past few years, I've been training new government auditors.  Starting four years ago, they aren't given any printed materials.  Everything is on the government Intranet, and as PDFs.  Trainee auditors can mark up the PDFs with annotations as they see fit.

People are going to be proficient with what they know (and how they are trained), but that doesn't mean a system is necessarily better. I can see how it may appear to be generational in your line of work, especially for those older than 50.

As you said, you use a second (I am assuming here a reasonably sized) monitor for handling intranet docs. Different devices have their own UI conventions, and sometimes those conventions are not optimized for speed or efficiency for every purpose, nor are the new document standards.

A PDF on a big screen is often a very different experience than a PDF on a phone or average sized tablet. Navigating PDFs on a big screen (ones that aren't bloated with non essentials and are well bookmarked and indexed) is a snap - but how often do your players have a full monitor screen available at the table?

Quote from: grodog;1064481The ideal of leveraging KS to help to establish a company or a product line, to push the boundaries for a game project that might otherwise never happen, has faded into practical non-existence vs. the now-common model for KS as a pre-order platform regardless of company/project size/scope.  I don't mind sharing risk as a consumer (or even as a publisher, although I've not done a KS myself to date), but I do miss the days when experimental projects were pushed to the public by publishers taking a risk to see whether their concept/format/whatever would capture sufficient interest to be possible.  That feels more artistically pure, but I'm sure if I ever come up with a $250K+ KS, I'll be smiling all the way to the bank just like the rest of the big bucks gang ;) :D

My impression is that gamer interest in backing a KS that takes a risk to "establish a company or product line, to push the boundaries" is almost zero now (with a few outliers like maybe you?) after a number of high profile failures (pick one?) and likely failures (a few come to mind that are years late with no end in sight), but these same folks are happy to help provide working capital (pre-order) in exhange for a discounted item for reputable publishers. Sadly, I think it turns out there's just not much consumer interest in funding the "artistically pure" stuff because they've decided it's just too risky. /shrug

I think of it as a form of Pre-Order with customizable bonuses as a potential offer.

It's also something that can be quite nerve wracking, though, as you may REALLY REALLY WANT a stretch goal.

I'm foregoing stretch goals for my first Kickstarter. You can kill yourself with unrealistic stretch goals.

I can't even really justify using color vs. black and white interiors as a stretch goal since the print cost difference is relatively trivial (it's the cost for getting full color artwork that's a bigger factor) and I'm doing the art myself in a style that is in color by default so it's really just a couple thousand dollars difference in the final goal to just start with color.

My goal is to make the whole thing as risk free to the backers as possible. I'll have all the writing done and about a third of the art finished by the time I'm ready to run a Kickstarter so I can include a draft copy of the books to be sent out upon successful completion of the Kickstarter (i.e. get the game content immediately, get the professionally laid out book once the artwork and printing is done).

It's kinda frustrating in that I'd really benefit from trying to use Kickstarter for its true purpose (i.e. getting capital to get my game company and initial products off the ground), but because of how the RPG side of Kickstarter has matured (including the big notable failures), I'm basically having to do all the company and product building ahead of time on a shoestring (i.e. sinking several grand into infrastructure and art assets) while the Kickstarter is going to just have to be a marketing tool and guidepost for whether or not I can proceed or should cut my losses.

I think one important thing to understand about KS is that it is the first application of a concept that will still likely evolve over time. Later evolutions of the crowdfunding model will end up working differently, though I couldn't guess exactly how (if I could, I'd be getting investors for it).

There's a major issue with intellectual products, which is that we live in a reality that if people want to, they'll be able to get rulebooks for free (via filesharing). So front-loaded crowdfunding is likely to be the response to this problem. It's just that this is not how KS sold itself initially, and it's probably not the best way to accomplish this.

With modern encryption it should be possible to set up files that have a unique key each time they're copied.  The files would be free and you'd pay for the key.

Quote from: David Johansen;1064846With modern encryption it should be possible to set up files that have a unique key each time they're copied.  The files would be free and you'd pay for the key.

This would also inconvenience paying customers while pirates would enjoy a hassle free copy.

You never want the free version to be BETTER than the paid version. Watermarking pdfs with the owner's name is a hassle free way to deincentivise piracy. E-reader formats like Kindle could also be a way.
What you strive to do is make piracy hard enough that casual effort can't get around it, while not making life harder for paying customers.

One thing that would be nice is if you couldn't download RPG books for free via a quick google search. I would think that rather than every publisher having to police google themselves, a 3rd party watchdog could maintain a list and an algorithm to find/report such google links and get them DMCA'd. Actually, stores like DriveThru should be motivated to do this themselves since casual piracy does cut into sales.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1064828I think one important thing to understand about KS is that it is the first application of a concept that will still likely evolve over time. Later evolutions of the crowdfunding model will end up working differently, though I couldn't guess exactly how (if I could, I'd be getting investors for it).

There's a major issue with intellectual products, which is that we live in a reality that if people want to, they'll be able to get rulebooks for free (via filesharing). So front-loaded crowdfunding is likely to be the response to this problem. It's just that this is not how KS sold itself initially, and it's probably not the best way to accomplish this.

This is true, however it is important to remember that this only applies to products that can be pirated in this way. Many of the KS projects I have backed include physical components, or are simply objects in their own right.

Patreon will continue to grow, but we haven't had a rock star do it in the RPG world yet. Possibly Matt Colville could have been the first, but I imagine he is better off not being burdened by the requirement for regular output.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1064851This would also inconvenience paying customers while pirates would enjoy a hassle free copy.

You never want the free version to be BETTER than the paid version. Watermarking pdfs with the owner's name is a hassle free way to deincentivise piracy. E-reader formats like Kindle could also be a way.
What you strive to do is make piracy hard enough that casual effort can't get around it, while not making life harder for paying customers.

One thing that would be nice is if you couldn't download RPG books for free via a quick google search. I would think that rather than every publisher having to police google themselves, a 3rd party watchdog could maintain a list and an algorithm to find/report such google links and get them DMCA'd. Actually, stores like DriveThru should be motivated to do this themselves since casual piracy does cut into sales.

Google has been neatly complicit in piracy up until the removal of Chilling Effects (https://searchengineland.com/anti-censorship-database-chilling-effects-censors-removing-domain-search-212567) from its search engine. But Chilling Effects is still around under a new hame, and still acting as a database containing links to cease-and-desist information including the actual URLs to remove. There are services that troll the internet looking for violations and then submit them to Google, but that is a significant ongoing cost of whack-a-mole, since nothing in DMCA stops sites from putting up new versions of the links later.

One consideration is a document serving site instead of PDF, that can cache portions or all of a book locally in an encrypted way. Users can join, pay a low monthly access rate, and get access to updates and the like.  They can use the same system to order a POD version of the book (or updates) at any time.

Quote from: Lynn;1065014One consideration is a document serving site instead of PDF, that can cache portions or all of a book locally in an encrypted way. Users can join, pay a low monthly access rate, and get access to updates and the like.  They can use the same system to order a POD version of the book (or updates) at any time.

Perhaps you aren't into digital services enough to know just how terribly something like that would perform. But that would be either extremely awful or extremely expensive and probably both.

No, the expectation set now is people having something like a PDF copy. You might be able to shift people over to e-reader formats which take a slight amount of effort to pirate (how many people steal Kindle books?). Any more hassle and some pirate's scanned copy of a POD is more useful than your paid service. It's similar to how younger generations will only stream new TV shows and will not watch them on cable with ads. A company either offers a way to do that or they receive no revenue from young people (both those who decide not to watch or pirate because of that factor are lost revenue).

What's funny is some RPGs are too niche for piracy. Piracy tends to require a paying customer giving out copies of what they paid for, for free. I can only guess as to the motivations of such people.

Quote from: David Johansen;1064846With modern encryption it should be possible to set up files that have a unique key each time they're copied.  The files would be free and you'd pay for the key.

Internet piracy of PDFs is just the tip of the iceberg. Our technology is moving to the level where it will end up being more practical to remake the basic system of economic exchange than trying to make countless stop-gap measures to try to hold off that development.

Also, it's not like patronage is some kind of radical untested idea. It was a basic function of all kinds of creative work for much of human history.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1065213Perhaps you aren't into digital services enough to know just how terribly something like that would perform. But that would be either extremely awful or extremely expensive and probably both.

The performance would all depend on traffic and a CMS that serve up the content in ways that would be palatable for type of display and integration with other services. If there are forms of print options then you will still run the risk of OCR. But then, having a service also means content can be updated in ways that can quickly obsolete OCR'd versions.

It wasn't that long ago that consumers would not have considered subscription based software. You can convert people to new paradigms if you add value in the way that makes them want it.

There are no RPGs too niche for piracy. Storage is negligible, and some people place no value on their own time. Some will even pirate no cost stuff.

Monthly subscription rates for almost anything seems to me to be an outdated economic model.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1066380Monthly subscription rates for almost anything seems to me to be an outdated economic model.

How I wish MMOs/videogame had that option instead of the dearth of free-to-pay micro transaction crap we get.

Even then, the best modals are "I buy something and we're done. You have to convince me to buy more". Best for the consumer that is...

Quote from: RPGPundit;1066380Monthly subscription rates for almost anything seems to me to be an outdated economic model.

I honestly think it is horrible, yet it is the direction of the software industry and a whole lot of content service providers. Once you have a large enough installed base that depends on your platform (with few other alternatives) you just drop the monthly price to a sweet spot until you drop the per license version. Adobe and Autodesk are very much there. Microsoft is offering all options - wisely. Your 'rights' extend exactly to your next renewal and / or any violation of the EULA which could earn you a termination.

Monthly fees do support a solid patreon model. If I have 5000 subscribers paying me $5 a month, I have a nice income ($25k a month!, woot!). As long as I maintain the quality and features, I can count on a pretty steady income. The folks making World Anvil are pulling in $7k+ a month on Patreon.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1066380Monthly subscription rates for almost anything seems to me to be an outdated economic model.

Most anti-virus and art based software would vigorously argue with that.

Of course, the irony of me taking this stance is that I've never done a crowdfunded product.