I've been eyeing this one at Drivethru. I've heard the original is one of the best adventures out there and I've been curious about it.
The price is higher than I would normally pay for a .pdf (the hard copies are exorbitant!), and between that and the sort of deep dive I'd need to take to familiarize myself with an 1100 page adventure, asking around seemed like a good idea before pulling the trigger.
So, does anyone have this and have an opinion on it? My main concerns are for the overall quality, the length of the adventure, and whether it is written by someone with the worldview of a 2019 Berkeley graduate or not.
If you can get past the woke 2019 Berkeley graduate additions/ommissions/changes and the virtue signalling? I honestly dont know. There is an older thread here on the problem.
Personally I think the PDF price is gouging of the worst sort. Especially for a reprint. 15$ I could see. But 60$? No.
Especially since I could have a 1200 page book printed hardbound for around 30$
The original was not one of the better CoC campaigns... but it was hard to get ahold of a copy and that seems to have given it some mystique. Maybe the remake is better somehow? I don't know... fancier components I'm sure. Meh.
I'd rather spend the money on some Pelgrane/Delta Green or a ToC adventure to convert.
It's a great sprawling investigation-adventure if you love the period setting of it all.
Although for a Call Of Cthulhu campaign of this magnitude I prefer Masks Of Nylarthotep, and using Pulp Cthulhu rules
But Horror On The Orient Express is still a great campaign, it is very detailed and it will be time-consuming (for good or bad)
I have it and have read a bit of it, but never got around to running it.
It is a large campaign, but even so, I don't like pdf versions being this pricey - about $45 USD for something this size would seem reasonable, but $60 USD just feels a bit steep...
Thanks for the heads up, I think I'll hold off on it for now.
Quote from: Mankcam;1102879It's a great sprawling investigation-adventure if you love the period setting of it all.
Although for a Call Of Cthulhu campaign of this magnitude I prefer Masks Of Nylarthotep, and using Pulp Cthulhu rules
But Horror On The Orient Express is still a great campaign, it is very detailed and it will be time-consuming (for good or bad)
I have it and have read a bit of it, but never got around to running it.
I'm not sure if it is worth the asking price however. It is a large campaign, but I don't think pdf versions should be that pricey - about $45 USD for something this size would be reasonable, but $60 USD seems a bit steep...
The price of our PDFs is almost always half the price of the physical book. If you buy the PDF and later buy the physical book from us, you get a credit for the value of the pdf. And you always get the PDF for free when you buy the physical book from us or from participating FLGS.
Quote from: Conanist;1102780I've been eyeing this one at Drivethru. I've heard the original is one of the best adventures out there and I've been curious about it.
The price is higher than I would normally pay for a .pdf (the hard copies are exorbitant!), and between that and the sort of deep dive I'd need to take to familiarize myself with an 1100 page adventure, asking around seemed like a good idea before pulling the trigger.
So, does anyone have this and have an opinion on it? My main concerns are for the overall quality, the length of the adventure, and whether it is written by someone with the worldview of a 2019 Berkeley graduate or not.
I am a player in a current HotOE (7th Edition) campaign and I can say it is a blast. There is detail and mood aplenty everywhere. And it's creepy AF.
Quote from: richaje;1103003The price of our PDFs is almost always half the price of the physical book. If you buy the PDF and later buy the physical book from us, you get a credit for the value of the pdf. And you always get the PDF for free when you buy the physical book from us or from participating FLGS.
Yeah the deal with Chaosium print & pdf products is pretty good, and if the poster was after a hard copy then going directly thru Chaosium is the way to go.
Pity the dollar exchange rates are so high at present, but that is not in Chaosium's control!
Quote from: Anthony Pacheco;1103047I am a player in a current HotOE (7th Edition) campaign and I can say it is a blast. There is detail and mood aplenty everywhere. And it's creepy AF.
Great to hear this. Its in my bookcase and on my 'to-run' list...
Quote from: richaje;1103003The price of our PDFs is almost always half the price of the physical book. If you buy the PDF and later buy the physical book from us, you get a credit for the value of the pdf. And you always get the PDF for free when you buy the physical book from us or from participating FLGS.
But if you just are interested in a pdf, $60 is pretty expensive considering it's an old campaign that you have "spiffed up". Same old car but with some new bodywork and a paintjob.
I'm running HotOE with my home group, and we're probably at about the half-way mark. I never ran the original version of the campaign, so I'm working from the deluxe 7th ed update.
The Good...
Fantastic amount of background information on the history and events of the early months of 1923: unrest in Ireland; Black Shirts in Italy; deciding the fate of Constantinople in Turkey. You get a real sense of place, and the Venice segment has a poignant section dealing with a family firm that's turned its doll making capabilities to helping post-war amputees.
Its an epic campaign that spans London to Constantinople and back again. If you like sweeping travelogues, then this is a great resource, and a lot of the background information is eminently usable in non-HotOE adventures
The production values are good. The props are excellent and very well done, with lovely floorplans for the train itself, and a special set of pieces for the macguffin. The tourist guide for the players is invaluable, as are the timetables and various handouts. The books are readable and functional, and make use of period photos rather than line illustrations. I found a lot of the maps quite murky and difficult to use, but some of the photographs employed help convey a great sense of place.
The Weak
The plot - both the set-up and the various arcs - is incredibly convoluted, confusing, and doesn't really stand up to close scrutiny. It is, IMO, over-thought and needlessly complex.
Scenarios I - some work well, some are quite weak/contrived, and one or two actually play better than they read. Enterprising players are going to quickly find loopholes that will derail (ho-ho) one of the main conceits of the campaign. Plus, the game is, literally, a railroad: you cannot sandbox this. The characters are jumping on and off a train to solve the Mystery of the Day in the Next Stop City and pursue the objectives set at the start of the campaign. There's no real story progression except to get X, go to Y and get Z.
Scenarios II - the new edition has quite a few new scenarios added that take this campaign to its huge, sprawling size. Unfortunately, most of them are side quests in other eras, dream-states, and so on that are superfluous to the plot. Given that so little happens aboard the actual train, this is a squandered opportunity to really make this a campaign with the Orient Express at its heart. Instead, the OE is merely a conveyance. There is a book of NPCs sketched out to various degrees that can be used for colour during segments on the train, but the train itself doesn't really feature as a character or a locale in its own right - and it should. There's obviously scope for the GM to create situations aboard the train, and the support material is there, but I find it perplexing that the new scenarios ignore the possibilities of a grand, opulent train journey and instead overthink and complicate an already overthought and complicated campaign.
For all this though, we are enjoying the campaign. I've made good use of recurring villains, and a couple of the scenarios have been quite harrowing for the players and their characters. None of them have played Cthulhu before, so it's a new experience to be investigating and interacting at this level.
Is it worth the money? Probably. It's an iconic campaign that has a lot of play value if you invest the time to run it. However, it is flawed, and I wouldn't call it a masterpiece as such. It's a good idea that I don't think was fully realised, and in updating it and expanding it, there were some missed opportunities. Overall though, a good Keeper will get their money's worth from the boxed set.
Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1103113But if you just are interested in a pdf, $60 is pretty expensive considering it's an old campaign that you have "spiffed up". Same old car but with some new bodywork and a paintjob.
Perhaps people would find it easier to decide for themselves if they feel a $60 price tag is warranted for the product. Here's what you get:
Book 1: Campaign Book, 72 pages
Book 2: Through the Alps, 264 pages
Book 3: Italy & Beyond, 272 pages
Book 4: Constantinople & Consequences, 192 pages
Book 5: Strangers on the Train, 96 pages
Book 6: Handouts for the Investigators, 192 pages
The Traveler's Companion, 48 pages
1923 Calendar
European Route Map, color
Air Routes in 1923, color map
Player Maps in color, 13 pages
Keeper Maps in color, 18 pages
Props: Three luggage stickers, Two postcards, Matchbox, Scroll of the Head, U.S. passports, Bumper Sticker, Six pages of Train Plans, Mims Sahis ceremonial knife, Sedefkar Simulacrum.
What you are looking at is basically the equivalent of FOUR books of 256 pages each. Would those be worth $15 each as a PDF?
NOTE: The original 1991 campaign was packaged in a 1 inch thick box. The 2nd edition 2014 came in a 3 inch thick box (stuffed full).
That's a lot of pages.
Quote from: Loz;1103117I'm running HotOE with my home group, and we're probably at about the half-way mark. I never ran the original version of the campaign, so I'm working from the deluxe 7th ed update.
Thanks for the great write up. Lot of good info there! How long do you think it will take to go through it without using the flashback vignette adventures, and are there others you have played that you would call a masterpiece?
Quote from: rmeints;1103162What you are looking at is basically the equivalent of FOUR books of 256 pages each. Would those be worth $15 each as a PDF?
NOTE: The original 1991 campaign was packaged in a 1 inch thick box. The 2nd edition 2014 came in a 3 inch thick box (stuffed full).
Thank you (and Jeff) for the response. In the hypothetical of 4 separate books, I could buy the first one and see if I liked it, and then get the rest if I did.
Free .pdfs with a purchase of the hard copy does sound pretty good and I'd be up for that if they were available. Any plans to reprint this set? I'm definitely not willing to pay $300+ for it on the secondary market.
Quote from: rmeints;1103162Perhaps people would find it easier to decide for themselves if they feel a $60 price tag is warranted for the product. Here's what you get:
Book 1: Campaign Book, 72 pages
Book 2: Through the Alps, 264 pages
Book 3: Italy & Beyond, 272 pages
Book 4: Constantinople & Consequences, 192 pages
Book 5: Strangers on the Train, 96 pages
Book 6: Handouts for the Investigators, 192 pages
The Traveler's Companion, 48 pages
1923 Calendar
European Route Map, color
Air Routes in 1923, color map
Player Maps in color, 13 pages
Keeper Maps in color, 18 pages
Props: Three luggage stickers, Two postcards, Matchbox, Scroll of the Head, U.S. passports, Bumper Sticker, Six pages of Train Plans, Mims Sahis ceremonial knife, Sedefkar Simulacrum.
What you are looking at is basically the equivalent of FOUR books of 256 pages each. Would those be worth $15 each as a PDF?
NOTE: The original 1991 campaign was packaged in a 1 inch thick box. The 2nd edition 2014 came in a 3 inch thick box (stuffed full).
Going by https://www.yog-sothoth.com/wiki/index.php/Horror_on_the_Orient_Express
The 1st edition was $39.95 (ca $75 today, adjusted for inflation). The 2nd ed. box was $119.95 in 2014 ($129.31, adjusted for inflation) as listed on that site. The scenario differences between the 1st and 2nd ed. are as follows:
"2nd Edition
The second addition contains everything listed above for 1st edition PLUS
BOOK II - Through the Alps: New scenarios The Blood Red Fez (Gaslight), The Dreamlands Express (Dreamlands)
BOOK III -- Italy And Beyond: New scenarios The Dark Crusader (Constantinople) (Dark Ages), Bread and Stone (Vinkovci), Sanguis Omnia Vincet (Constantinople) (Invictus)
BOOK IV -- Constantinople & Consequences: New scenario The Simulacrum Unbound (Istanbul) (Modern)"
"The 2nd edition also includes a Travellers Companion (for players), a bumper sticker, maps and plans, and a medallion."
Sure, it's alot of pdfs, alot of pages and handouts (but no amulet I take it). But the 1923 calender, the handouts and a custom GM screen can be downloaded for free here: https://www.chaosium.com/horror-on-the-orient-express-pdf/
The handouts and the rest are still in black and white. I thought 2nd edition was a full colour product actually. I watched a very good actual play on Into the Darkness of this campaign, with the 2nd edition. The Dreamland Express stuff was just...not horror. I also remember the new Dark Ages scenario, but it just felt tacked on. I can't even recall the rest of the new scenarios. Maybe they skipped them. Prequel scenarios, sequel scenarios, dreamland stuff, etc felt just like a distraction from the main campaign.
Since there is such a huge difference in page count, I take it you have expanded upon every scenario and used more art. I can't compare the scenarios to spot the alterations and extra material, and sometimes less is more. But I still think 60 bucks for a remade campaign in pdf-form is a bit expensive. Not to mention the cost for the boxed version.
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The upcoming Alien RPG has a standard bundle that includes the standard Alien RPG Core Rulebook, along with a deluxe gamemaster screen, two sets of custom dice (one set of 10 Base Dice and one set of 10 Stress Dice), a set of 50 custom cards (for initiative, weapons, and NPCs), and a set of useful maps and markers. A PDF of the book is included. Price: $99.99 ($50 discount on the total retail price). All in full colour and with HIGH quality art. And Alien was most certainly not a dirtcheap license to get, remember that.
Quote from: Conanist;1103212Thank you (and Jeff) for the response. In the hypothetical of 4 separate books, I could buy the first one and see if I liked it, and then get the rest if I did.
Free .pdfs with a purchase of the hard copy does sound pretty good and I'd be up for that if they were available. Any plans to reprint this set? I'm definitely not willing to pay $300+ for it on the secondary market.
They could also have made a specific pdf-bundle with all the new (and not necessary) scenarios and offered the travel companion for free or as a low cost pdf.
Quote from: Conanist;1103210Thanks for the great write up. Lot of good info there! How long do you think it will take to go through it without using the flashback vignette adventures, and are there others you have played that you would call a masterpiece?
We've probably played for about 50 hours, and are at the halfway stage in the scenarios. The second half may take about the same length of time, although I'm tempted to think it'll be a bit less. We tend to play for about 4-6 hours at a stretch.
In terms of masterpieces, I played 'Masks of Nyarlathotep' when it was first released, but I've never run it, so it's difficult for me to make a comparison. I'm reading 'Beyond the Mountains of Madness' right now, and I'm impressed with it more than I am 'HotOE', simply because it is far more focused, appears to be better structured, and is as much about the Antarctic as it is about the Mythos.
As ever, mileages vary.
Quote from: Loz;1103117Plus, the game is, literally, a railroad: you cannot sandbox this.
Huh, here we have one of the most famous campaigns outside of D&D and it's fairly railroad-y, quite literally. I was being told that railroading always sucks, except in very few, extreme cases.
Quote from: Loz;1103252In terms of masterpieces, I played 'Masks of Nyarlathotep' when it was first released, but I've never run it, so it's difficult for me to make a comparison. I'm reading 'Beyond the Mountains of Madness' right now, and I'm impressed with it more than I am 'HotOE', simply because it is far more focused, appears to be better structured, and is as much about the Antarctic as it is about the Mythos.
I have to wonder if any of those come without any railroading.
Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1103245Since there is such a huge difference in page count, I take it you have expanded upon every scenario and used more art. I can't compare the scenarios to spot the alterations and extra material, and sometimes less is more. But I still think 60 bucks for a remade campaign in pdf-form is a bit expensive. Not to mention the cost for the boxed version.
The upcoming Alien RPG has a standard bundle that includes the standard Alien RPG Core Rulebook, along with a deluxe gamemaster screen, two sets of custom dice (one set of 10 Base Dice and one set of 10 Stress Dice), a set of 50 custom cards (for initiative, weapons, and NPCs), and a set of useful maps and markers. A PDF of the book is included. Price: $99.99 ($50 discount on the total retail price). All in full colour and with HIGH quality art. And Alien was most certainly not a dirtcheap license to get, remember that.
HotOE is a tried-and-true classic though, while the new Alien RPG still has to pass the test of time.
QuoteHuh, here we have one of the most famous campaigns outside of D&D and it's fairly railroad-y, quite literally. I was being told that railroading always sucks, except in very few, extreme cases.
Railroading isn't uncommon in Cthulhu games, and its often unavoidable. Neither is it necessarily a bad thing: a good GM is usually able to handle even the most linear railroad in a way that comes across as being more freeform.
With HotOE though, there are certain encounters described in detail in some scenarios that the GM
has to railroad the characters into experiencing - while some of the more logical avenues of investigation are skirted over, alluded to, or not handled at all. The Milan scenario, involving a missing opera singer is a case in point: there's scope for a lot of investigative work on several quite logical paths, none of which are handled properly, whereas a far more obscure path is quite heavily detailed. And the denouement of the Lausanne scenario can only be resolved with a very heavy handed railroad.
So my issues aren't with railroading per se; but in HotOE the structuring could have been handled far more effectively to avoid some of the railroading that's in evidence.
Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1103263HotOE is a tried-and-true classic though, while the new Alien RPG still has to pass the test of time.
Yes, but that is true of the 2nd edition too. The 1st ed. is the tried-and-true classic. The 2nd editions new additions seems to be a mixed bag that makes the main campaign lose focus.
Quote from: Loz;1103117Scenarios II - the new edition has quite a few new scenarios added that take this campaign to its huge, sprawling size. Unfortunately, most of them are side quests in other eras, dream-states, and so on that are superfluous to the plot. Given that so little happens aboard the actual train, this is a squandered opportunity to really make this a campaign with the Orient Express at its heart. Instead, the OE is merely a conveyance. There is a book of NPCs sketched out to various degrees that can be used for colour during segments on the train, but the train itself doesn't really feature as a character or a locale in its own right - and it should. There's obviously scope for the GM to create situations aboard the train, and the support material is there, but I find it perplexing that the new scenarios ignore the possibilities of a grand, opulent train journey and instead overthink and complicate an already overthought and complicated campaign.
This puzzled me with the whole campaign too. The in reality so very epic Orient Express itself and how mis/underused it is in the campaign. It could really be replaced by any old train. It could have been used more in the vein of the old movie Horror Express. And they should have ditched the vampire from the start. If it was a Chill campaign a vampire would have been a better fit. And last, but not least, although epic in scale it doesn't feel like a horror campaign. Especially not a Lovecraftian horror campaign.
Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1103279This puzzled me with the whole campaign too. The in reality so very epic Orient Express itself and how mis/underused it is in the campaign. It could really be replaced by any old train. It could have been used more in the vein of the old movie Horror Express. And they should have ditched the vampire from the start. If it was a Chill campaign a vampire would have been a better fit. And last, but not least, although epic in scale it doesn't feel like a horror campaign. Especially not a Lovecraftian horror campaign.
I've had fun with the vampire, but it isn't very Mythos related, and I've had to concoct my own backstory to actually make things feel linked to the Mythos in some way. But I think I agree with you; it doesn't feel Lovecraftian in the way that 'Mountains of Madness' does, or even some of the shorter classics from the 1st Ed era.
Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1103279This puzzled me with the whole campaign too. The in reality so very epic Orient Express itself and how mis/underused it is in the campaign. It could really be replaced by any old train. It could have been used more in the vein of the old movie Horror Express.
And now that you mention it,
Horror Express feels like the result of an especially gonzo CoC game...
Quote from: Dimitrios;1103305And now that you mention it, Horror Express feels like the result of an especially gonzo CoC game...
Gonzo or not, it's more Lovecraftian than Horror on the Orient Express, that's for sure:). A Keeper could use the story as the basis of a cool CoC scenario. If you check it out on imdb you can also see similar movies, one being The Creeping Flesh, a movie that also could work as a Lovecraftian scenario.
Quote from: Loz;1103285I've had fun with the vampire, but it isn't very Mythos related, and I've had to concoct my own backstory to actually make things feel linked to the Mythos in some way. But I think I agree with you; it doesn't feel Lovecraftian in the way that 'Mountains of Madness' does, or even some of the shorter classics from the 1st Ed era.
Yeah, if I ever decide to be a Keeper of one of Chaosium's megacampaigns I would probably choose Beyond the (Manifests) Mountains of Madness. It's an expedition going to a single location. It makes sense and the setting is one of isolation (like in The Thing and Alien).
Alot of people seem to prefer Masks though...but I have some issues with all the extreme globe trotting. It must be quite hard for a Keeper to keep the players and in turn the Investigators motivated. And it seems to be quite lethal too, so how would you introduce other Investigators? Maybe it would be better as a pulp Cthulhu campaign too.
Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1103263HotOE is a tried-and-true classic though, while the new Alien RPG still has to pass the test of time.
Is HotOE really all that much of a 'classic' though? I know Chaosium is presenting it that way, but I really don't remember it getting particularly good reviews back in its day... and since then it's certainly not mentioned on the same level as MoN or BtMoM.
I remember complaints about the vampire and limited scope, and suggestions to take the train information and use it for some other adventure (which is pretty much what I've done with it).
It's got a reputation, being one of the big CoC campaigns... but it's never struck me as one of the fondly remembered ones.
I remember reading a positively gushing review of it when it originally came out, and was able to find it (in Dragon #185). Bear in mind that in the ancient days of 1991 objectivity was a little more valued and both one and five star reviews were rare. This is the reviewer's (Rick Swan, a TSR guy) closing statement to the 5 star review:
"Evaluation: Obviously, Horror on the Orient Express is not for the faint of heart or the weak of stomach. Neither is it for players who become attached to their characters. Chaosium says to expect a 70% Investigator casualty rate by insanity or death. I'd say that ís a conservative estimate. Players should begin with a minimum of three or four spare PCs, as I guarantee they'll be gobbled up like candycorn.
Many RPG products aspire to greatness, but few actually achieve it. Horror on the Orient Express qualifies as a work of art. The provocative cast of characters, colorful settings, and heart-stopping encounters add up to a gaming experience that few players will soon forget. I envy anyone who ís about to get started. I wish I could do it again."
Quote from: Conanist;1103406I remember reading a positively gushing review of it when it originally came out, and was able to find it (in Dragon #185).
This is a more recent review of the original, but still in line with the opinions I recall seeing... though I only saw them AFTER I had bought the thing:
https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/rpg-horror-on-the-orient-express-reviewed-by-darren-maclennan-5-3.591840/
It's not like I think HotOE is 'bad'... but it's served me better as a source of ideas and inspiration than an actual campaign.
Some salient takeaways:
"So, in summary: Horror on the Orient Express is a great book to read, but the actual play value is compromised by too much railroading; it reads more like a novel than an adventure. It is absolutely worth reading through if you can lay hands on a copy; it's excellently written, has numerous evocative scenes, but just doesn't gel together as a campaign."
"Great review, absolutely accurate to our experience of playing the game. It would work far better as a novel or a TV mini-series than a supposedly interactive campaign. We found that we were powerless to do anything but walk into each scenario's obvious trap."
As an aside... a while back I discovered Thomas Ligotti and searched out anything I could find by him or about him. I was surprised to see that one portion of HotOE,
A City of Bells and Towers, was something of an homage to his writing... so I grabbed my copy off the shelf and had a fresh read of it... and I pretty much agree with what this reviewer said about it, "It may be a fantastic scenario to read; I'm not entirely sure if it's a good scenario to play."
As much as I like Ligotti I don't think his stories really lend themselves to an RPG treatment... but I can see why someone wanted to give it a try.
So not a big fan of necroing a post, but I would feel remiss not to report we just had a player leave our HoTOE game for reasons directly related to the criticism here. Here's his argumentation as best as I can recall the conversation:
"This game style is not for me. It's a great story with a great setting, but all I'm doing is interacting with it. If there were something we could do to move the needle one way or the other, it would be a campaign worth playing. Despite my cool backstory and list of cool skills, the game is just Murder Hoboing Through Europe."
Ouch. To give some context, this player also plays in the campaign that I DM, which is D&D 5 with a very healthy dose of OSR. I run this campaign as the "world as a simulation," not in a narrative style. So for this player, his criticism is on the mark. He's a busy dude and has a social calendar, so putting something not his style on the chopping block is comes easy for him.
Personally, I'm the type of player that can swim in a narrative-driven, 90's style plot. However, I also prefer an excellent sandbox RPG, a simulation of a fantasy world over other types of RPGs.
So, if evaluating HotOE, keep in mind what players you got. If you have a bunch of guys who go the simulation route, then HotOE is still viable. You need to evaluate each chapter and use the extensive and excellent background material to redesign the adventures. Here the product shines--it's ridiculous the amount of good source material the Keeper gets. That will take an extensive amount of time.
(I'm a player in this campaign, so my observations thus far are incomplete insofar as the overall story from beginning to conclusion.)
If you have Narrative-loving players that can overlook the railroad, well, then, the campaign doesn't require much tweaking on your part. I would say, based on the material I've played in thus far, that some work to smooth over the rougher edges as suggested earlier would be time well spent.
Two asides:
I chuckled over the obligatory PDF pricing commentary. Without looking at the rest of the material I haven't played yet, $60 for a PDF is a direct derivative of "half-off the physical product" type pricing that we also use here at Griffon Lore Games (once our crowdfunding campaigns have ended). With the HotOE 7th Ed version, having someone compile the extensive source material on 1923 Europe alone is worth the price of admission. What other products on the market walk you through 1923 Europe along the Orient Express route with a Lovecraft lense?
Finally, I do feel a bit weird as an adventure designer critiquing someone else's product, but I'm not saying anything I would say to the designer's face(s). It's a great product, and if I hadn't been so caffeine-deprived, I would have snagged the last physical copy at PaizoCon 2019, but I'm glad my partner-in-crime got to it first so I can play in the campaign.
Quote from: Anthony Pacheco;1104460Personally, I'm the type of player that can swim in a narrative-driven, 90's style plot.
This irks me a bit. I know HotOE is 1991 but surely Chaosium has been publishing railroad-y adventures before the 90s - as have others? So is this really a typical 90s thing? And, in fact, I tend to believe that railroady adventures are basically standard adventures, the default, as opposed to sandbox adventures. Or differently put: if a review doesn't indicate that a published adventure is sandbox-y, I presume it's railroad-y.
Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1104489This irks me a bit. I know HotOE is 1991 but surely Chaosium has been publishing railroad-y adventures before the 90s - as have others? So is this a typical 90s thing? And, in fact, I tend to believe that railroady adventures are basically standard adventures, the default, as opposed to sandbox adventures. Or differently put: if a review doesn't indicate that a published adventure is sandbox-y, I presume it's railroad-y.
Well, the late 90s, early 2000s, yeah?
A lot of those old TSR modules was really sandboxy, and when they weren't had a ton of sandbox stuff you could add. Even
Descent which is a "go to point B from point A" had that super DM map in the back with the short description of all those cool places like the "mind-flayer city" and the 20th Level Lich. I fleshed all those out, and my players spent more time crawling around the optional areas then they did following Eclavdra.
But I digress. I admit that I could be wearing Rose Colored OSR Glasses(TM).
As an update I ended up getting Masks of Nyarlathotep instead. It was also very highly regarded and a lot easier to get the hard copy (81$ on Amazon). Maybe I'll try Horror at a later date.
I think you'd have to expect Horror to be something of a railroad, even going past the play on words. That doesn't really bother me. I think some concepts become so taboo that they are automatically considered to be "bad", when they can still work if implemented well enough. Some of my very favorite books are terribly written in terms of their structure.
Quote from: Anthony Pacheco;1104460Two asides:
I chuckled over the obligatory PDF pricing commentary. Without looking at the rest of the material I haven't played yet, $60 for a PDF is a direct derivative of "half-off the physical product" type pricing that we also use here at Griffon Lore Games (once our crowdfunding campaigns have ended). With the HotOE 7th Ed version, having someone compile the extensive source material on 1923 Europe alone is worth the price of admission. What other products on the market walk you through 1923 Europe along the Orient Express route with a Lovecraft lense?
Finally, I do feel a bit weird as an adventure designer critiquing someone else's product, but I'm not saying anything I would say to the designer's face(s). It's a great product, and if I hadn't been so caffeine-deprived, I would have snagged the last physical copy at PaizoCon 2019, but I'm glad my partner-in-crime got to it first so I can play in the campaign.
I appreciate the commentary. It looks like you are just starting out. You've got a couple adventures and 20 YT subscribers. I applaud your entrepreneurship, but I think you've got a ways to go before you are swimming in the same pond as Chaosium.
There is only one (non bundle) adventure on DTRPG that costs more than either Horror or Masks. One. Is it that unreasonable to question if the second most expensive adventure on DTRPG is worth the money? I think its worth discussing.