Quote from: rmeints;1103162Perhaps people would find it easier to decide for themselves if they feel a $60 price tag is warranted for the product. Here's what you get:

Book 1: Campaign Book, 72 pages
Book 2: Through the Alps, 264 pages
Book 3: Italy & Beyond, 272 pages
Book 4: Constantinople & Consequences, 192 pages
Book 5: Strangers on the Train, 96 pages
Book 6: Handouts for the Investigators, 192 pages
The Traveler's Companion, 48 pages
1923 Calendar
European Route Map, color
Air Routes in 1923, color map
Player Maps in color, 13 pages
Keeper Maps in color, 18 pages
Props: Three luggage stickers, Two postcards, Matchbox, Scroll of the Head, U.S. passports, Bumper Sticker, Six pages of Train Plans, Mims Sahis ceremonial knife, Sedefkar Simulacrum.

What you are looking at is basically the equivalent of FOUR books of 256 pages each. Would those be worth $15 each as a PDF?

NOTE: The original 1991 campaign was packaged in a 1 inch thick box. The 2nd edition 2014 came in a 3 inch thick box (stuffed full).

Going by https://www.yog-sothoth.com/wiki/index.php/Horror_on_the_Orient_Express

The 1st edition was $39.95 (ca $75 today, adjusted for inflation). The 2nd ed. box was $119.95 in 2014 ($129.31, adjusted for inflation) as listed on that site. The scenario differences between the 1st and 2nd ed. are as follows:

"2nd Edition

The second addition contains everything listed above for 1st edition PLUS

BOOK II - Through the Alps: New scenarios The Blood Red Fez (Gaslight), The Dreamlands Express (Dreamlands)

BOOK III -- Italy And Beyond: New scenarios The Dark Crusader (Constantinople) (Dark Ages), Bread and Stone (Vinkovci), Sanguis Omnia Vincet (Constantinople) (Invictus)

BOOK IV -- Constantinople & Consequences: New scenario The Simulacrum Unbound (Istanbul) (Modern)"

"The 2nd edition also includes a Travellers Companion (for players), a bumper sticker, maps and plans, and a medallion."

Sure, it's alot of pdfs, alot of pages and handouts (but no amulet I take it). But the 1923 calender, the handouts and a custom GM screen can be downloaded for free here: https://www.chaosium.com/horror-on-the-orient-express-pdf/

The handouts and the rest are still in black and white. I thought 2nd edition was a full colour product actually. I watched a very good actual play on Into the Darkness of this campaign, with the 2nd edition. The Dreamland Express stuff was just...not horror. I also remember the new Dark Ages scenario, but it just felt tacked on. I can't even recall the rest of the new scenarios. Maybe they skipped them. Prequel scenarios, sequel scenarios, dreamland stuff, etc felt just like a distraction from the main campaign.

Since there is such a huge difference in page count, I take it you have expanded upon every scenario and used more art. I can't compare the scenarios to spot the alterations and extra material, and sometimes less is more. But I still think 60 bucks for a remade campaign in pdf-form is a bit expensive. Not to mention the cost for the boxed version.

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The upcoming Alien RPG has a standard bundle that includes the standard Alien RPG Core Rulebook, along with a deluxe gamemaster screen, two sets of custom dice (one set of 10 Base Dice and one set of 10 Stress Dice), a set of 50 custom cards (for initiative, weapons, and NPCs), and a set of useful maps and markers. A PDF of the book is included. Price: $99.99 ($50 discount on the total retail price). All in full colour and with HIGH quality art. And Alien was most certainly not a dirtcheap license to get, remember that.

Quote from: Conanist;1103212Thank you (and Jeff) for the response. In the hypothetical of 4 separate books, I could buy the first one and see if I liked it, and then get the rest if I did.

Free .pdfs with a purchase of the hard copy does sound pretty good and I'd be up for that if they were available. Any plans to reprint this set? I'm definitely not willing to pay $300+ for it on the secondary market.

They could also have made a specific pdf-bundle with all the new (and not necessary) scenarios and offered the travel companion for free or as a low cost pdf.

Quote from: Conanist;1103210Thanks for the great write up. Lot of good info there! How long do you think it will take to go through it without using the flashback vignette adventures, and are there others you have played that you would call a masterpiece?

We've probably played for about 50 hours, and are at the halfway stage in the scenarios. The second half may take about the same length of time, although I'm tempted to think it'll be a bit less. We tend to play for about 4-6 hours at a stretch.

In terms of masterpieces, I played 'Masks of Nyarlathotep' when it was first released, but I've never run it, so it's difficult for me to make a comparison. I'm reading 'Beyond the Mountains of Madness' right now, and I'm impressed with it more than I am 'HotOE', simply because it is far more focused, appears to be better structured, and is as much about the Antarctic as it is about the Mythos.

As ever, mileages vary.

Quote from: Loz;1103117Plus, the game is, literally, a railroad: you cannot sandbox this.

Huh, here we have one of the most famous campaigns outside of D&D and it's fairly railroad-y, quite literally. I was being told that railroading always sucks, except in very few, extreme cases.

Quote from: Loz;1103252In terms of masterpieces, I played 'Masks of Nyarlathotep' when it was first released, but I've never run it, so it's difficult for me to make a comparison. I'm reading 'Beyond the Mountains of Madness' right now, and I'm impressed with it more than I am 'HotOE', simply because it is far more focused, appears to be better structured, and is as much about the Antarctic as it is about the Mythos.

I have to wonder if any of those come without any railroading.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1103245Since there is such a huge difference in page count, I take it you have expanded upon every scenario and used more art. I can't compare the scenarios to spot the alterations and extra material, and sometimes less is more. But I still think 60 bucks for a remade campaign in pdf-form is a bit expensive. Not to mention the cost for the boxed version.

The upcoming Alien RPG has a standard bundle that includes the standard Alien RPG Core Rulebook, along with a deluxe gamemaster screen, two sets of custom dice (one set of 10 Base Dice and one set of 10 Stress Dice), a set of 50 custom cards (for initiative, weapons, and NPCs), and a set of useful maps and markers. A PDF of the book is included. Price: $99.99 ($50 discount on the total retail price). All in full colour and with HIGH quality art. And Alien was most certainly not a dirtcheap license to get, remember that.

HotOE is a tried-and-true classic though, while the new Alien RPG still has to pass the test of time.

QuoteHuh, here we have one of the most famous campaigns outside of D&D and it's fairly railroad-y, quite literally. I was being told that railroading always sucks, except in very few, extreme cases.

Railroading isn't uncommon in Cthulhu games, and its often unavoidable. Neither is it necessarily a bad thing: a good GM is usually able to handle even the most linear railroad in a way that comes across as being more freeform.

With HotOE though, there are certain encounters described in detail in some scenarios that the GM has to railroad the characters into experiencing - while some of the more logical avenues of investigation are skirted over, alluded to, or not handled at all. The Milan scenario, involving a missing opera singer is a case in point: there's scope for a lot of investigative work on several quite logical paths, none of which are handled properly, whereas a far more obscure path is quite heavily detailed. And the denouement of the Lausanne scenario can only be resolved with a very heavy handed railroad.

So my issues aren't with railroading per se; but in HotOE the structuring could have been handled far more effectively to avoid some of the railroading that's in evidence.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1103263HotOE is a tried-and-true classic though, while the new Alien RPG still has to pass the test of time.

Yes, but that is true of the 2nd edition too. The 1st ed. is the tried-and-true classic. The 2nd editions new additions seems to be a mixed bag that makes the main campaign lose focus.

Quote from: Loz;1103117Scenarios II - the new edition has quite a few new scenarios added that take this campaign to its huge, sprawling size. Unfortunately, most of them are side quests in other eras, dream-states, and so on that are superfluous to the plot. Given that so little happens aboard the actual train, this is a squandered opportunity to really make this a campaign with the Orient Express at its heart. Instead, the OE is merely a conveyance. There is a book of NPCs sketched out to various degrees that can be used for colour during segments on the train, but the train itself doesn't really feature as a character or a locale in its own right - and it should. There's obviously scope for the GM to create situations aboard the train, and the support material is there, but I find it perplexing that the new scenarios ignore the possibilities of a grand, opulent train journey and instead overthink and complicate an already overthought and complicated campaign.

This puzzled me with the whole campaign too. The in reality so very epic Orient Express itself and how mis/underused it is in the campaign. It could really be replaced by any old train. It could have been used more in the vein of the old movie Horror Express. And they should have ditched the vampire from the start. If it was a Chill campaign a vampire would have been a better fit. And last, but not least, although epic in scale it doesn't feel like a horror campaign. Especially not a Lovecraftian horror campaign.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1103279This puzzled me with the whole campaign too. The in reality so very epic Orient Express itself and how mis/underused it is in the campaign. It could really be replaced by any old train. It could have been used more in the vein of the old movie Horror Express. And they should have ditched the vampire from the start. If it was a Chill campaign a vampire would have been a better fit. And last, but not least, although epic in scale it doesn't feel like a horror campaign. Especially not a Lovecraftian horror campaign.

I've had fun with the vampire, but it isn't very Mythos related, and I've had to concoct my own backstory to actually make things feel linked to the Mythos in some way. But I think I agree with you; it doesn't feel Lovecraftian in the way that 'Mountains of Madness' does, or even some of the shorter classics from the 1st Ed era.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1103279This puzzled me with the whole campaign too. The in reality so very epic Orient Express itself and how mis/underused it is in the campaign. It could really be replaced by any old train. It could have been used more in the vein of the old movie Horror Express.

And now that you mention it, Horror Express feels like the result of an especially gonzo CoC game...

Quote from: Dimitrios;1103305And now that you mention it, Horror Express feels like the result of an especially gonzo CoC game...

Gonzo or not, it's more Lovecraftian than Horror on the Orient Express, that's for sure:). A Keeper could use the story as the basis of a cool CoC scenario. If you check it out on imdb you can also see similar movies, one being The Creeping Flesh, a movie that also could work as a Lovecraftian scenario.

Quote from: Loz;1103285I've had fun with the vampire, but it isn't very Mythos related, and I've had to concoct my own backstory to actually make things feel linked to the Mythos in some way. But I think I agree with you; it doesn't feel Lovecraftian in the way that 'Mountains of Madness' does, or even some of the shorter classics from the 1st Ed era.

Yeah, if I ever decide to be a Keeper of one of Chaosium's megacampaigns I would probably choose Beyond the (Manifests) Mountains of Madness. It's an expedition going to a single location. It makes sense and the setting is one of isolation (like in The Thing and Alien).

Alot of people seem to prefer Masks though...but I have some issues with all the extreme globe trotting. It must be quite hard for a Keeper to keep the players and in turn the Investigators motivated. And it seems to be quite lethal too, so how would you introduce other Investigators? Maybe it would be better as a pulp Cthulhu campaign too.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1103263HotOE is a tried-and-true classic though, while the new Alien RPG still has to pass the test of time.

Is HotOE really all that much of a 'classic' though? I know Chaosium is presenting it that way, but I really don't remember it getting particularly good reviews back in its day... and since then it's certainly not mentioned on the same level as MoN or BtMoM.
I remember complaints about the vampire and limited scope, and suggestions to take the train information and use it for some other adventure (which is pretty much what I've done with it).
It's got a reputation, being one of the big CoC campaigns... but it's never struck me as one of the fondly remembered ones.

I remember reading a positively gushing review of it when it originally came out, and was able to find it (in Dragon #185). Bear in mind that in the ancient days of 1991 objectivity was a little more valued and both one and five star reviews were rare. This is the reviewer's (Rick Swan, a TSR guy) closing statement to the 5 star review:

"Evaluation: Obviously, Horror on the Orient Express is not for the faint of heart or the weak of stomach. Neither is it for players  who  become  attached  to  their characters. Chaosium says to expect a 70% Investigator casualty rate by insanity or death. I'd say that ís a conservative estimate. Players should begin with a minimum of three or four spare PCs, as I guarantee they'll be gobbled up like candycorn.

Many RPG  products  aspire  to  greatness, but few actually achieve it. Horror on the Orient Express qualifies as a work of  art. The provocative cast of characters, colorful settings, and heart-stopping  encounters add up to a gaming experience that few players will soon forget. I envy anyone who ís about to get started. I wish I could do it again."

Quote from: Conanist;1103406I remember reading a positively gushing review of it when it originally came out, and was able to find it (in Dragon #185).

This is a more recent review of the original, but still in line with the opinions I recall seeing... though I only saw them AFTER I had bought the thing:
https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/rpg-horror-on-the-orient-express-reviewed-by-darren-maclennan-5-3.591840/

It's not like I think HotOE is 'bad'... but it's served me better as a source of ideas and inspiration than an actual campaign.

Some salient takeaways:

"So, in summary: Horror on the Orient Express is a great book to read, but the actual play value is compromised by too much railroading; it reads more like a novel than an adventure. It is absolutely worth reading through if you can lay hands on a copy; it's excellently written, has numerous evocative scenes, but just doesn't gel together as a campaign."

"Great review, absolutely accurate to our experience of playing the game. It would work far better as a novel or a TV mini-series than a supposedly interactive campaign. We found that we were powerless to do anything but walk into each scenario's obvious trap."


As an aside... a while back I discovered Thomas Ligotti and searched out anything I could find by him or about him. I was surprised to see that one portion of HotOE, A City of Bells and Towers, was something of an homage to his writing... so I grabbed my copy off the shelf and had a fresh read of it... and I pretty much agree with what this reviewer said about it, "It may be a fantastic scenario to read; I'm not entirely sure if it's a good scenario to play."
As much as I like Ligotti I don't think his stories really lend themselves to an RPG treatment... but I can see why someone wanted to give it a try.