Inspired by the discussion about Venger's woes.
We've long called ANY Fantasy RPG a heartbreaker.I don't disagree.
We also seem to think that you can paint yourself in a corner if you pick a niche within a niche within a niche and don't diversify your offerings. I agree.
So, the question is: Is there a sweet spot or is it more about marketing, networking and growing a name/brand?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 04, 2024, 11:38:40 PMWe've long called ANY Fantasy RPG a heartbreaker.I don't disagree.
I very disagree with this idiotic notion.
Alot of RPGs are just there. They were never made to "beat" D&D. Someone just had an ideas for an RPG and took a shot at publishing. Thats the vast majority.
Sure there are more than a few over the decades that touted themselves as better. But 99% of them are long gone.
The concept of the Heartbreaker died with the creation of the OSR.
It's easier to sell, if it is at least somewhat similar to a previously proven product. Make stuff that seems familiar, to people who have shown, that they like to buy RPG products.
Ex: Not just a vocal minority. People who want to spend their money, on your stuff. "Here's my money. Please take it."
Ex: WOTC is leaving money on the table.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 04, 2024, 11:38:40 PMSo, the question is: Is there a sweet spot or is it more about marketing, networking and growing a name/brand?
Probably a little column A, little column B.
If you're starting out trying to break into contemporary RPG publication, you're probably best advised to keep your overhead/expectations low, especially if what you're doing is very different from what's already out there. It also seems like people who start their career by writing a new game tend to be less successful than people who first build a name for themselves writing support products for existing games. I'm sure it exists, but I can't think of an example of a new designer coming out of the gate with an original game and being a notable success.
Yeah, writing new rpgs is a crapshoot. That's why I'm more interested in writing prose fiction imagining the kind of games I'd like to play but never will. It's way easier to get people to read your short fiction than to play your game. Reading positive comments gives a nice endorphin rush. Plus, you can build a community that way and later on make an rpg spin-off someday.
I don't think there is a clear formula.
I was impressed with the results of OSE, being a copy of B/X even to things that I consider typos/mistakes. OTOH some games like DCC were successful by being quite quirky.
I put an OSE label to my latest book hoping it would reach a maximum number of people since OSE is so popular, but I'm not sure it made any difference.
So, is it more about marketing, networking and growing a name/brand?
Yes, I think so.
I think it's really only a heart breaker if you invest a lot of money, have high hopes and go broke.
That said, I think the market is moribund and saturate and D&D could be reduced to a Candy Land board and the fans would still rabidly defend it.
Quote from: strollofturtle on September 04, 2024, 11:44:52 PMThe concept of the Heartbreaker died with the creation of the OSR.
wow. How edgy. Don't quit your day job.
To the OP: It's a little of both. You can make a niche game within a niche community. But I think you have to be aggressive in promoting your game to produce the numbers so it can sustain you and your business.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 04, 2024, 11:38:40 PMWe've long called ANY Fantasy RPG a heartbreaker.I don't disagree.
Heartbreaker stuck because it was coined in an era of limited shelf and warehouse space. Publishers competed for those space and thus projects that had little to no chance in that arena but also had a ton of creative and monetary investment looked futile thus the label stuck.
This is no longer the case and now projects pretty much rise and fall on their own merits and the work the author puts in. There can still be an overinvestment, but if one is willing to recalibrate expectations, you can recover and bootstrap back into something viable.
However, the incentive to undertake the bootstap may not be there if the author cannot realize the product in the form they desire. For example, the author strongly feels that their work has to be full-color illustrated layouts.
That being said, I think the idea of a heartbreaker was a product of a particular time no longer relevant.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 04, 2024, 11:38:40 PMWe also seem to think that you can paint yourself in a corner if you pick a niche within a niche within a niche and don't diversify your offerings. I agree.
So, the question is: Is there a sweet spot or is it more about marketing, networking and growing a name/brand?
RPGs have a setting, however loosely defined. Unless you are focusing your work on being a generic toolkit system, it is impossible to escape defining some type of setting that you are writing from. Even toolkit systems generally start somewhere like Hero System with superheroics, GURPS with realistic man to man combat, Savage Worlds with pulp adventures.
Because there is a setting there always the potential of there being more to the story than the typical genre expectations. Thus, the trick is to figure what more is there and expand that
Case in point the Expanse book series. Each book of The Expanse, while taking place in the same strongly defined setting, also drew in different science fiction subgenres. Finally, winding up the series with a grand epic centered on a space empire evoking the spirit of Asimov's Foundation and other golden age space empires.
Since "heartbreaker" is from Ron Edwards, there's also the element that he felt sad when people made fantasy games because they weren't doing it in his super special GNS "narrativist" storygame way. They were wasting all their good ideas on trying to beat D&D instead of making an indie pile for the audience of The Forge. Money and popularity were secondary.
@Everybody that has replied so far:
I'm not asking for myself, but thought that the discussion (in a more generic way instead of focusing on Venger woes) was worth having.
I'm doing the writing, layout and even cover art, First game out (probably this month or the first week of October) is my Totally-Not-ScoobyDoo, no interior art unless I manage to do it myself and then very little (mainly for the classes if any).
For my more "serious" games the plan is to have everything done except the art and THEN do the crowdfunding for the art, each baker gets a no art pdf of the game right away to show the game IS finished.
Those games ARE mostly Pulp games with different genre/settings but compatible with each other so in the end you have a huge playground.
(No, Pulp isn't a genre).
So in a way I'm painting myself in a niche within a niche, on the other hand Sword & Planet + Mistery Men + totally not Tarzan + Hollow Earth + totally not Flash Gordon isn't much of a small corner IMHO.
Marketing may be considered significant, but if the game itself is a piece of crap, then it is just lipstick on a pig.
Good games and adventures may not have great marketing, but word of mouth about enjoyable game sessions will give that product a very long tail of sales.
Quote from: blackstone on September 05, 2024, 09:47:24 AMQuote from: strollofturtle on September 04, 2024, 11:44:52 PMThe concept of the Heartbreaker died with the creation of the OSR.
wow. How edgy. Don't quit your day job.
Oh yeah, it's so fucking edgy to point out that a term coined for rpgs that failed because they're amateur houseruled versions of D&D stopped being relevant when a bunch of people found success with their houseruled versions of D&D. That's not just common sense or anything 🙄
I know of an authour, John Michael Greer. who writes in two relatively obscure fields - occult magic, and talking about the coming deindustrial future, and he said that each time he writes he gets a few sales, but that he also gets a little uptick in sales of previous works, as people who buy Book X by JMG decide to also buy Book Y by JMG. He said that this "long tail" took fifteen years to get thick enough that his wife no longer had to do paid work (she had some long-term illness).
In the meantime, he just kept pumping out books (https://www.goodreads.com/author/list/247898.John_Michael_Greer). I'm not sure how many he's got, but it must be over 100. Write 2-3 x 300 page books a year for 15 years. Listen to the feedback you get, both explicit (editors, the more intelligent reviewers) and implicit (sales!) and improve and alter appropriate. Then see how successful you are then.
In my own professional field of fitness it's similar. There's this strongman and gym owner Stevie Pulcinella who says, "I've never seen a gym bro call another gym bro over and say, "hey bro - let me tell you a secret. I'm gonna lift some real fuckin' heavy weights and eat a lot of good food for about ten years and see if I build any muscle. But don't tell nobody. Secret.""
I don't think they're "heartbreakers" because they're the niche of a niche so much as that people write one or two, don't get an instant hit like JK Rowling did, and so give up. But if the person just kept pumping the writing out for 10+ years and listening to feedback, I think probably some good things might happen.
Ttrpgs are hyper niche due to the high investment cost and difficulty of finding other players. If you want views, then you're better off writing prose or making video games.
Quote from: estar on September 05, 2024, 10:08:08 AMHeartbreaker stuck because it was coined in an era of limited shelf and warehouse space. Publishers competed for those space and thus projects that had little to no chance in that arena but also had a ton of creative and monetary investment looked futile thus the label stuck.
This is no longer the case and now projects pretty much rise and fall on their own merits and the work the author puts in. There can still be an overinvestment, but if one is willing to recalibrate expectations, you can recover and bootstrap back into something viable.
I'd agree -- but I think it's also obsolete because the genre landscape has changed. When it was coined in 2002, "fantasy heartbreaker" meant a game where the designer's only experience was D&D.
Back in 2002, D&D was on top and the D20 wave was starting -- but there was a variety of second-tier games. Now, 22 years later, the market is even more D&D-focused than ever. It's not just that D&D is still on top, but a big chunk of all the second-tier games are all directly based on D&D - Pathfinder, Starfinder, OSR games, Nimble, DC20, Shadowdark and many others.
So it seems like knowing about RPG design outside D&D isn't actually so important. As someone who's been an RPG fan for years, it bugs me when someone starts publishing and clearly doesn't know about the history of RPGs. But I have to admit that it seems like just knowing D&D is enough to be successful in today's market.
Here's the original essay for reference (https://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/9/) (cert expired but site is safe). A Fantasy Heartbreaker is a game which is essentially D&D with a handful of innovations doomed to die in obscurity, which is exactly what each game mentioned in that essay did.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 05, 2024, 01:34:43 PM(No, Pulp isn't a genre).
Feel the same way about Anime.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on September 06, 2024, 08:51:13 AMI know of an authour, John Michael Greer. who writes in two relatively obscure fields - occult magic, and talking about the coming deindustrial future, and he said that each time he writes he gets a few sales, but that he also gets a little uptick in sales of previous works, as people who buy Book X by JMG decide to also buy Book Y by JMG. He said that this "long tail" took fifteen years to get thick enough that his wife no longer had to do paid work (she had some long-term illness).
Which are exactly the same market dynamics #WotC originally took advantage of with the OGL, D20 Logo, and SRD to great effect. Now imagine how successful he'd be if he got a little uptick whenever someone
else wrote another book.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 06, 2024, 12:28:57 PMTtrpgs are hyper niche due to the high investment cost and difficulty of finding other players. If you want views, then you're better off writing prose or making video games.
Can't even do lore vids anymore given how so many new RPGs simply don't have any.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on September 06, 2024, 02:12:09 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 06, 2024, 12:28:57 PMTtrpgs are hyper niche due to the high investment cost and difficulty of finding other players. If you want views, then you're better off writing prose or making video games.
Can't even do lore vids anymore given how so many new RPGs simply don't have any.
So I've noticed. Back in the 90s and 2000s it was common to have campaign setting books, mini-settings in magazines... now rpgs don't even bother with
that much. Everything feels sparse and sterile.
On the other hand, after my negative experiences with the lorejunkies in WoD fandom, I find lore to be mostly an elitist extravagance. It gets too bloated to care about, acts as a straitjacket on creativity, and is irrelevant to the PCs. It's just the writers stroking their egos and cultists joining in.
There are ways to make lore relevant, like by the PCs being immortals who lived through these events. But 99% of the time it's just the writer engaging in self-aggrandizing exposition dumping. It's badly executed bullshit. Why should I or anyone else care about the grand convocation in bumfuck texas circa 18 zillion BC?
Even settings I like have a tendency to devolve into exposition dumps full of information that the PCs would never be able to learn anyway. The writers don't even try to communicate the info in-character or reveal it through adventures. It's self-aggrandizing nonsense and I don't understand why writers do it.
D&D and CoC are popular because of their relative lack of lore. It's not that they don't have lore, D&D has a multiverse after all. It's just not a straitjacket. You can invent your own settings and stuff without worrying about where it fits into canon. That's what all rpgs should strive to do. There's reasons why D&D is an order of magnitude more popular than CoC, and CoC is an order of magnitude more popular than anything that comes afterward.
Most rpgs are married to single canons and it just frustrates me. If you don't wanna play some rotting zombie IP from the 80s that has been lucky enough to stay solvent, then you're fucked. Rpgs are limited only by your imagination, but the hobby doesn't even bother to imagine anymore. I've long since become disillusioned with rpgs.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 06, 2024, 02:53:59 PMMost rpgs are married to single canons and it just frustrates me. If you don't wanna play some rotting zombie IP from the 80s that has been lucky enough to stay solvent, then you're fucked. Rpgs are limited only by your imagination, but the hobby doesn't even bother to imagine anymore. I've long since become disillusioned with rpgs.
Or you are not looking hard enough.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/browse?productType=2140-core-rulebooks
There are nearly 20,000 core rulebooks listed on DriveThruRPG alone. I have no doubt there are plenty of imaginative titles among those 20,000.
Quote from: estar on September 06, 2024, 03:11:01 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 06, 2024, 02:53:59 PMMost rpgs are married to single canons and it just frustrates me. If you don't wanna play some rotting zombie IP from the 80s that has been lucky enough to stay solvent, then you're fucked. Rpgs are limited only by your imagination, but the hobby doesn't even bother to imagine anymore. I've long since become disillusioned with rpgs.
Or you are not looking hard enough.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/browse?productType=2140-core-rulebooks
There are nearly 20,000 core rulebooks listed on DriveThruRPG alone. I have no doubt there are plenty of imaginative titles among those 20,000.
I agree. There has been a huge explosion of RPG publishing in the past 10 years or so. I used to maintain an encyclopedia of RPGs, but it became impossible to keep up with the pace of newly published RPGs. There are tons of people publishing, but they're fighting over a narrow fringe when the general market seems to be ever more focused on D&D and directly-related RPGs.
That brings up another point here:
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on September 06, 2024, 08:51:13 AMI don't think they're "heartbreakers" because they're the niche of a niche so much as that people write one or two, don't get an instant hit like JK Rowling did, and so give up. But if the person just kept pumping the writing out for 10+ years and listening to feedback, I think probably some good things might happen.
I'm glad it worked out for Greer, but I can tell you that there are tons of authors who have been struggling for 10+ years and they cannot get a break. My best friend from high school dropped out of college to become a screenwriter, and he's written over 200 scripts, and had 65 of them produced - but he's still struggling to make ends meet. Working for years at a low-paying gig doesn't necessarily lead to great things.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on September 06, 2024, 08:51:13 AMSNIP
I don't think they're "heartbreakers" because they're the niche of a niche so much as that people write one or two, don't get an instant hit like JK Rowling did, and so give up. But if the person just kept pumping the writing out for 10+ years and listening to feedback, I think probably some good things might happen.
Who said they were?
I'm pointing to two distinct phenomenons and asking if there's a happy middle ground.
Or, to ask the same in a different way: Why do so many rpgs die in obscurity?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 06, 2024, 04:01:31 PMOr, to ask the same in a different way: Why do so many rpgs die in obscurity?
The simple answer is that there are far too many RPGs produced compared to the number of RPG players. Lots of people have great ideas for RPGs.
Added onto that is that the network effect means that even if an RPG is really well-designed, it will still fail unless it can establish a large enough network of players. That requires a popular enough genre hook and successful marketing.
I don't think that the best designs necessarily bubble up to the top. Just like McDonald's isn't the best food, I'm doubtful about design quality of some successful lines like World of Darkness or Starfinder - but they were good enough to be enjoyable to their fans.
Quote from: estar on September 06, 2024, 03:11:01 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 06, 2024, 02:53:59 PMMost rpgs are married to single canons and it just frustrates me. If you don't wanna play some rotting zombie IP from the 80s that has been lucky enough to stay solvent, then you're fucked. Rpgs are limited only by your imagination, but the hobby doesn't even bother to imagine anymore. I've long since become disillusioned with rpgs.
Or you are not looking hard enough.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/browse?productType=2140-core-rulebooks
There are nearly 20,000 core rulebooks listed on DriveThruRPG alone. I have no doubt there are plenty of imaginative titles among those 20,000.
Trust me, I've looked. Did you see my list of urban fantasy rpgs? They all died in obscurity and 90% aren't worth reading anyway.
Crappy games like World of Darkness continue for decades as badly written badly designed franchise zombies, while better games like WitchCraft or All Flesh Must Be Eaten die in obscurity.
90% of those 20,000 are crap due to sturgeon's law, and the remaining 10% worth reading are dead and never coming back.
I'm sick of it.
I think our hobby is just a bit SMALL outside of "official" D&D and a couple of games like PF and CoC.
There are also tons of free RPGs.
BFRPG for example has free adventures and supplements for a lifetime.
It is hard to succeed in our hobby.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on September 06, 2024, 08:51:13 AMdon't get an instant hit like JK Rowling did, and so give up.
I think she was rejected by at least 12 publishers. She wrote the first three books before she got a bite on the first one. I get your point but that's not a great example.
Most of the famous hits, like Potter and Twilight, were rejected a dozen times. It's impossible to predict what's gonna be the next big thing.
Meanwhile, financially successful franchises are canceled because they're not successful enough or part of the wrong IP when the company gets bought out.
There's really no recourse when an IP dies because of our dumb shitty copyright laws. Lots of interesting game IPs from the 80s, 90s and 2000s are dead and never coming back, while post Great Recession games mostly aren't worth investing in and the few that are die anyway.
It's stupid. Just because company X didn't achieve success doesn't mean company Y couldn't make it work.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 06, 2024, 04:01:31 PMOr, to ask the same in a different way: Why do so many rpgs die in obscurity?
In the Business Strategy classes in my MBA program we talked a lot about what makes some industries profitable and others not. What happens in most industries is that there are a number of companies competing to provide similar products and the prices gets competed down until weaker companies can't stay in business, those folks go off and do other things, the remaining companies get a bit more profitable as they capture a larger share of the market, and things reach a kind of equilibrium until some shock like new technology starts changing things again. One thing that can change the outcome is if the cost of staying in business is very low and competitors are willing to stay in for reasons other than profit. Then everyone's profit gets competed down to close to zero unless they have some major advantage, and there's little money to be made as a new entrant. Guess what industry this looks like?
The TLDR is that the dynamics of the RPG industry basically suck if you want to make a profit, especially for new entrants. Since the cost of getting in is minimal, a lot of folks are going to try it, find out there's little money in it, and quit. Hence many abandoned games, even pretty good ones.
A great book on this topic is "The Formula: The Universal Laws of Success". It's available on Amazon.
It discusses, among other things:
- network effects
- Matthew effects
- the level of talent that the most successful have, compared to the less successful
- the difference between success and performance
- why young people seem to be the only ones who have big breakthroughs
And more. It's simultaneously a depressing read (because, as JH Kim pointed out, quality doesn't always win out) but it's also very liberating (because, in fact, you can succeed at any age and any time). I recommend all creators read out to better understand how to play the numbers. It inspired me to keep going despite a number of mediocre Kickstarters.
Quote from: amacris on September 07, 2024, 12:22:24 AMA great book on this topic is "The Formula: The Universal Laws of Success".
...
It's simultaneously a depressing read (because, as JH Kim pointed out, quality doesn't always win out) but it's also very liberating (because, in fact, you can succeed at any age and any time). I recommend all creators read out to better understand how to play the numbers. It inspired me to keep going despite a number of mediocre Kickstarters.
Thanks for the book recommendation, amacris. I think it's important to have realistic goals, but I don't want to be too depressing. I'm not an insider, but from knowing a few insiders, I'd say keep your day job and don't depend on RPGs as your primary income -- but that doesn't mean don't publish. RPGs are incredibly fun, so enjoy them and as long as you're getting a kick out of creating, keep at it.
Personally, I mostly aim to have fun game sessions with people I know, and have interesting conversations about it on the Internet. I haven't been looking to make money at it, which has simplified my life.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 06, 2024, 05:24:41 PMCrappy games like World of Darkness continue for decades as badly written badly designed franchise zombies, while better games like WitchCraft or All Flesh Must Be Eaten die in obscurity.
90% of those 20,000 are crap due to sturgeon's law, and the remaining 10% worth reading are dead and never coming back.
I'm sick of it.
It sounds like you might just want to step away from the hobby for a while. If you're not enjoying RPGs, do something else that you really enjoy.
For me, I love lots of dead RPGs. I'm pretty sure that if I wanted, I could play nothing but already dead games on my shelf with people for the rest of my life, and enjoy it. There could maybe be a thread on how to find players for dead games.
Quote from: jhkim on September 06, 2024, 03:25:37 PMWorking for years at a low-paying gig doesn't necessarily lead to great things.
No, it doesn't. But working for years is, in most cases, a prerequisite to making a modest living. It's a prerequisite, but not a guarantee. However, most people are unwilling or unable to do that.
Again, it's like the gym. If you come three times a week for ten years and eat a whole lot of good food, will you squat 200kg? Probably not. But if you don't do those things you
certainly won't squat 200kg.
Most people won't put the work in, so they never get to find out. You mentioned how many new RPGs were being written - something which probably not even drivethrurpg knows is the average number of titles per authour. I'd expect it's fewer than 3-4. There'll be a stack of authours who wrote one, a very few authours who wrote dozens, and almost nobody who wrote hundreds of titles.
Most people get into things, realise how much work they'll have to do for how long in order to have a chance of significant results - and quit. So it's not about it being the niche of a niche and all that. After all, what's the most popular media on the internet? Pornography. And how many people make a living from that? Few of those performing in it, that's for sure. So it's not a matter of how popular the particular genre is. It's a matter of working hard for a long time - and then
maybe being successful.
Quote from: Mishihari on September 06, 2024, 07:58:09 PM?
The TLDR is that the dynamics of the RPG industry basically suck if you want to make a profit, especially for new entrants. Since the cost of getting in is minimal, a lot of folks are going to try it, find out there's little money in it, and quit. Hence many abandoned games, even pretty good ones.
Exactly. Ttrpgs give you a lot of creative freedom and expression compared to other mediums like tv or movies or prose. You can put your series bible in the customer's hand and let them write their own episodes. Unfortunately, it's not an industry you go into for profit and you need to really nurture your work to attract players.
I recently chatted with a writer who published his own indie rulebook. He told me he wasn't gonna publish a setting book unless the sales justified it.
Ttrpgs are basically the old adage "don't go into writing as your job, go into it as a hobby."
I've tried pitching ttrpgs before and it's like herding cats. Rabid cats.
That's why I'm only ever writing simple rules and giving stuff away for free.
Quote from: jhkim on September 07, 2024, 02:20:00 AMIt sounds like you might just want to step away from the hobby for a while. If you're not enjoying RPGs, do something else that you really enjoy.
I'm not enjoying any media. Hollywood movies are crap. Books are crap. Video games are crap. Everything is crap. A huge part of that is because they're relying on nostalgia for properties from the 80s rather than creating anything with soul. It's all just content that has nothing to say beyond "buy product and get excited for more product." I don't understand why anyone keeps buying this slop beyond simple pressure to conform. I want to see new franchises with new ideas, not endless requels.
If you hate everything, it's you.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on September 07, 2024, 09:17:26 AMIf you hate everything, it's you.
Nope, a much larger than usual portion of current media really is crap. Fortunately all of the old books, movies, and games are still around, far more than I'll ever be able to watch or play myself.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 07, 2024, 08:01:25 AMQuoteIt sounds like you might just want to step away from the hobby for a while. If you're not enjoying RPGs, do something else that you really enjoy.
I'm not enjoying any media. Hollywood movies are crap. Books are crap. Video games are crap. Everything is crap. A huge part of that is because they're relying on nostalgia for properties from the 80s rather than creating anything with soul. It's all just content that has nothing to say beyond "buy product and get excited for more product." I don't understand why anyone keeps buying this slop beyond simple pressure to conform. I want to see new franchises with new ideas, not endless requels.
I sympathize. It can be easy to look at the entertainment landscape and conclude that Western Culture burned itself out somewhere around the turn of the milennium, and has been limping along on fumes ever since. As unsatisfying as it is, the answer is that if you want new, seek old. Lemme try and make some actually useful recommendations.
Videogames: This is the easiest. Browse Good Old Games, and/or take up emulation. I use Retroarch for everything PS2 and earlier. If you like shooters, the "GManLives" Youtube channel has reviewed pretty much every one ever made. If you like RPGs, then between "Mortismal Games" and "Click4gameplay" they've probably covered them all.
Movies: A bit tougher. If you have Turner Classic Movies, just watching at random times will clue you into some interesting stuff. HBO Max has a few TCM movies at any given time, but it tends to be the famous stuff. Amazon Prime has an insane number of 70s and 80s low-budget genre movies, but you need a high schlock tolerance to enjoy them. Shudder used to be good. No idea if it still is.
Books: This is going to sound like a joke, but its a serious recommendation. Take a day off; put "used bookstores" into google maps and just wander around. My job occasionally lands me in a strange city with nothing to do for a few hours, and this is what I always do. I've found some of my favorite books this way.
Quote from: Mishihari on September 07, 2024, 10:28:49 AMQuote from: Kyle Aaron on September 07, 2024, 09:17:26 AMIf you hate everything, it's you.
Nope, a much larger than usual portion of current media really is crap. Fortunately all of the old books, movies, and games are still around, far more than I'll ever be able to watch or play myself.
True, but you can still find good stuff, mainly in realms where true indies can exist like books, comics, ttrpgs.
BCT is just blackpilled to the extreme, because he wants to be able to use the same IPs he decries as nostalgia and can't
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 07, 2024, 08:01:25 AMQuote from: Mishihari on September 06, 2024, 07:58:09 PM?
The TLDR is that the dynamics of the RPG industry basically suck if you want to make a profit, especially for new entrants. Since the cost of getting in is minimal, a lot of folks are going to try it, find out there's little money in it, and quit. Hence many abandoned games, even pretty good ones.
Exactly. Ttrpgs give you a lot of creative freedom and expression compared to other mediums like tv or movies or prose. You can put your series bible in the customer's hand and let them write their own episodes. Unfortunately, it's not an industry you go into for profit and you need to really nurture your work to attract players.
I recently chatted with a writer who published his own indie rulebook. He told me he wasn't gonna publish a setting book unless the sales justified it.
Ttrpgs are basically the old adage "don't go into writing as your job, go into it as a hobby."
I've tried pitching ttrpgs before and it's like herding cats. Rabid cats.
That's why I'm only ever writing simple rules and giving stuff away for free.
Quote from: jhkim on September 07, 2024, 02:20:00 AMIt sounds like you might just want to step away from the hobby for a while. If you're not enjoying RPGs, do something else that you really enjoy.
I'm not enjoying any media. Hollywood movies are crap. Books are crap. Video games are crap. Everything is crap. A huge part of that is because they're relying on nostalgia for properties from the 80s rather than creating anything with soul. It's all just content that has nothing to say beyond "buy product and get excited for more product." I don't understand why anyone keeps buying this slop beyond simple pressure to conform. I want to see new franchises with new ideas, not endless requels.
Be the change you want to see, I'm working on a Sword & Planet ttrpg, The main setting is Venus, but I could use a few other planets, write up a totally-not-mongo, with it's own creatures and history (the lore you sometimes hate), give me a list with all the monsters and sentients and I'll stat them up for my game.
I do the editting, formatting also, we go 50/50 of any hypothetical profits.
It has become clear to me that I am no longer the target demographic for most media these days.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 07, 2024, 12:39:45 PMQuote from: Mishihari on September 07, 2024, 10:28:49 AMQuote from: Kyle Aaron on September 07, 2024, 09:17:26 AMIf you hate everything, it's you.
Nope, a much larger than usual portion of current media really is crap. Fortunately all of the old books, movies, and games are still around, far more than I'll ever be able to watch or play myself.
True, but you can still find good stuff, mainly in realms where true indies can exist like books, comics, ttrpgs.
BCT is just blackpilled to the extreme, because he wants to be able to use the same IPs he decries as nostalgia and can't
I don't see many new ttrpgs that compare with anything produced before the Great Recession. Both creativity and volume of writing have dramatically decreased.
Quote from: ForgottenF on September 07, 2024, 10:43:45 AMBooks: This is going to sound like a joke, but its a serious recommendation. Take a day off; put "used bookstores" into google maps and just wander around. My job occasionally lands me in a strange city with nothing to do for a few hours, and this is what I always do. I've found some of my favorite books this way.
I do this too. It's also a good way to find interesting parts of town that aren't in the tourist guides and meet interesting people. Highly recommended.
Quote from: ForgottenF on September 07, 2024, 10:43:45 AMI sympathize. It can be easy to look at the entertainment landscape and conclude that Western Culture burned itself out somewhere around the turn of the milennium, and has been limping along on fumes ever since.
Cultural Ground Zero. 1997.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 06, 2024, 04:01:31 PMOr, to ask the same in a different way: Why do so many rpgs die in obscurity?
Quote from: estar on September 06, 2024, 03:11:01 PMThere are nearly 20,000 core rulebooks listed on DriveThruRPG alone.
I think this is a big part of the reason why. There are so many ttrpgs available that no one can even keep track of them all let alone buy, read or use them. There's just too many. How does a small publisher get their product noticed in the sea of other products competing for the attention of a relatively small number of customers? I think, inevitably, a lot of them just don't.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 07, 2024, 05:00:34 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on September 07, 2024, 12:39:45 PMQuote from: Mishihari on September 07, 2024, 10:28:49 AMQuote from: Kyle Aaron on September 07, 2024, 09:17:26 AMIf you hate everything, it's you.
Nope, a much larger than usual portion of current media really is crap. Fortunately all of the old books, movies, and games are still around, far more than I'll ever be able to watch or play myself.
True, but you can still find good stuff, mainly in realms where true indies can exist like books, comics, ttrpgs.
BCT is just blackpilled to the extreme, because he wants to be able to use the same IPs he decries as nostalgia and can't
I don't see many new ttrpgs that compare with anything produced before the Great Recession. Both creativity and volume of writing have dramatically decreased.
Well, you're not looking really hard if at all:
Pundit's stuff
Kevin Crawford
DCC (even if they're going woke at breakneck speed)
Rob Necronomicon's Terminus
The zombie city by Grim Jim
And that's just of the top of my head without stopping to think, none of which is a retro-clone nor does it use other's IP.
IMHO you're blackpilled, want to remain like that and will rationalize to justify doing so.
Quote from: yosemitemike on September 07, 2024, 08:27:30 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on September 06, 2024, 04:01:31 PMOr, to ask the same in a different way: Why do so many rpgs die in obscurity?
Quote from: estar on September 06, 2024, 03:11:01 PMThere are nearly 20,000 core rulebooks listed on DriveThruRPG alone.
I think this is a big part of the reason why. There are so many ttrpgs available that no one can even keep track of them all let alone buy, read or use them. There's just too many. How does a small publisher get their product noticed in the sea of other products competing for the attention of a relatively small number of customers? I think, inevitably, a lot of them just don't.
Which brings us to the next question, what can be done? Can we (the royal we) do it?
IMHO what we need is a filter, someone or several someones to go find the good stuff and help both the public find it and the creator to sell it.
I think we can do it, and as soon as I figure out OBS Studio I'm going to start a podcast for that. Also need a co-host(s) in the same time zone or close enough.
I cannot for the life of be understand Venger's plight, A rising tide lifts all boats when it comes to the OSR.
He's either a dunce or more likely he left for an entirely different reason and threw a grenade on the way out for shits and giggles.
The thing about niche products is even if they don't function as a stand alone game they make for a good supplement to another.
I first encountered the question of "why was everything better in the past?" at uni in 1990 during a class on poetry. Specifically, they were talking about the likes of Wordsworth. I didn't know the term then, but I said it was simply survivorship bias. I said, "Plenty of crap was written in 1850, but nobody bothered reprinting it. People mostly only bother reprinting the good stuff. And that's what we've got left over. A hundred years from now people will be asking why there's no good stuff written in 2090, but there was so much in 1990."
People here obviously never heard of the term "penny dreadfuls."
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on September 07, 2024, 10:55:23 PMI first encountered the question of "why was everything better in the past?" at uni in 1990 during a class on poetry. Specifically, they were talking about the likes of Wordsworth. I didn't know the term then, but I said it was simply survivorship bias. I said, "Plenty of crap was written in 1850, but nobody bothered reprinting it. People mostly only bother reprinting the good stuff. And that's what we've got left over. A hundred years from now people will be asking why there's no good stuff written in 2090, but there was so much in 1990."
People here obviously never heard of the term "penny dreadfuls."
Most people are too young and/or never went down the literary rabbit hole to encounter the term.
You could say the same about the Pulps, how many do we know about? (even I am too "young" to remember them) Most didn't survive the test of time, and not only the racy ones.
Most of us have lived through a few decades and do have direct experience of the sudden cultural decline that began around the 1st decade of the 21st century. Certainly the 2010s and 2020s seem like a bit of a wasteland compared to prior decades. It's not just survivorship bias I think. Some good stuff is still being made, I like Christopher Nolan films for instance, but it seems to be far less than in the past. The 1980s in particular were an embarrassment of riches.
I don't think the ratio of good to bad has changed at all.
What has changed is that there's a much larger volume of stuff now. Anyone can make a movie and put it on YT, on Netflix I could spend a lifetime just watching movies and series from Nigeria, of all places, books are easily self-published, and so on.
This large volume of stuff can make you cynical and jaded. If nothing else, when looking at the huge amount of stuff we have to choose from, it's easy to be daunted by it all and just shrug and choose nothing.
I think the other change is that of medium - from big to small screen, and from printed to smaller screen. Star Wars wouldn't have been as great a success if it'd first been shown on TV - if nothing else, the opening credits and scene wouldn't have the same impact. And a book you can zip through with a finger's swipe quite simply isn't as good as a printed one. As well, you used to have to watch a movie at its scheduled time - you couldn't stop it and pick up a week later, or never. This change of format has tended to make people overall less engaged with each particular movie, show or book.
You know the saying, "nobody clicks on links"? Just check anyone's sharing of their RPG materials here on this forum, you can see how many downloads it had. It's invariably a tiny number. "It's crap, I know because I never even looked at it. I'm just too busy... doing what, you ask? Complaining that stuff is crap!"
Most stuff isn't very good. Some stuff is excellent. The ratio hasn't changed, we just have more stuff overall, are less engaged and have shorter attention spans. Those guys complaining everything's crap? I guarantee you that if we gave them a free RPG or book they would not read it well enough to write up a review here. I'd bet money on it.
For those who think everything is crap-if that is the case then create your own stuff. I do it all the time. I create stuff for my own enjoyment and to share with my players. Beyond that, I have enough rpg material already. So when I see a lot of crap being released I just shrug and keep going.
I think you all make good points. There is definitely over saturated marketplace that makes it hard for products to stand put and find an audience. The fantasy genre in particular, and I'm completely burned out on that genre. I'm burned out on Cthulhu mythos too.
That said, I definitely think that writers are getting lazier. I'll provide some specific examples:
In the 90s and 00s we had indie urban fantasy games like Everlasting and WitchCraft that wrote large rulebooks and multiple supplements full of crunch and fluff. Nowadays, I haven't found any games that remotely compare. I guess there's Liminal, but it doesn't grab me at all.
In the 90s we had unusual cyberpunk games like Kromosome that bucked typical cyberpunk tropes. It was anarcho-capitalist, the planet was barely inhabitable, millions were dying all the time, wetware/bioware was commonplace... but nowadays cyberpunk is so cookie cutter. There's no point in playing anything outside Cyberpunk 2020, and no point playing 2020 if you want something more creative.
If you wanna play something like X-Files? The only game that people still play is Delta Green, but that's a Cthulhu spin-off. If you wanna investigate Roswell grays and mothmen and stuff, then you have no real options.
It's not survivorship bias. It's the opposite. Good games with creative premises don't survive and don't inspire innovation. Those that survive become de facto monopolies, fossilized, and ultimately soulless. They're going through the motions due to inertia, but all the creativity and passion is long gone.
Like, how old are the franchises that dominate ttrpgs? D&D, CoC, Battletech, Traveler, Cyberpunk 2020, WoD... Almost all of them date back the 1980s at latest. Nothing else has been able to establish a niche. Aside from D&D's ogl scene, it's very bland and homogeneous.
I think what people are observing is the corpratization of everything. Corporations want franchises and safe bets, they let other people take risks and then buy up the properties and bowlderize them and then wonder why their new product isn't hailed as the most brilliant and greatest thing.
But even in music, we're in the kareokie age. It's heavily dominated by remaking songs from the seventies and eighties. This is partly due to movies like Shrek and Guardians of the Galaxy but it's also coming from the TV shows like American Idol and America's Got Talent.
If we're not careful we'll see the day when you have to pay by the word for every word you write and say due to corporate ownership of language.
Quote from: David Johansen on September 08, 2024, 10:04:41 AMI think what people are observing is the corpratization of everything. Corporations want franchises and safe bets, they let other people take risks and then buy up the properties and bowlderize them and then wonder why their new product isn't hailed as the most brilliant and greatest thing.
But even in music, we're in the kareokie age. It's heavily dominated by remaking songs from the seventies and eighties. This is partly due to movies like Shrek and Guardians of the Galaxy but it's also coming from the TV shows like American Idol and America's Got Talent.
If we're not careful we'll see the day when you have to pay by the word for every word you write and say due to corporate ownership of language.
Yep. Survivorship bias is a thing, but it also doesn't explain why certain times have way more literature survive than others. The Romantic period (Wordsworth, et al.) was a short burst of about 40 years, followed by about 5 decades of much fewer "classics" surviving, even though more literature was being produced. It has to do with the zeitgeist, the prevailing cultural winds, and also the economic and social structure of the time. There's a reason that Chinese thought and invention flourished during the Warring States period, just like there's a reason that the Romantic Period produced more memorable authors than the previous or following 50 years.
The whole "today is just like every other time" mantra is both true and false. People haven't changed. We are still fundamentally the same organisms we were 50,000 years ago, with the same biology, limitations, and moral failings. But our environment changes, our social and political structures change, and most importantly, the cultural incentives of our times change.
How much truly good literature or film came out of the Soviet Union? There was some, but nowhere near what was coming out of the West in the 70's and 80's. Our culture (and its emphasis) clearly contributed to that proliferation of good movies and books. Well, why should we be surprised when the level of our media declines as our western societies copy more and more of the ideals of the Soviets (censorship, political correctness, top-down management and thinking, etc.)? Culture matters, maybe more than any other factor. And our culture is
different than the culture that spawned the classic RPGs of the 70's and 80's.
So, no, it isn't just our perspectives that have changed. The actual quality of works today
has declined. At the beginning of each "Open Bar", the Critical Drinker will read off the top grossing movies of a year from the 80's, 90's, or early 2000's. When you compare just those top twenty or so movies, any of them would shine compared to
all of the movies produced in the last ten years. And Hollywood was putting out
ten of them every year. Our culture has changed, and it's hurting our creativity...
Quote from: David Johansen on September 08, 2024, 10:04:41 AMI think what people are observing is the corpratization of everything. Corporations want franchises and safe bets, they let other people take risks and then buy up the properties and bowlderize them and then wonder why their new product isn't hailed as the most brilliant and greatest thing.
But even in music, we're in the kareokie age. It's heavily dominated by remaking songs from the seventies and eighties. This is partly due to movies like Shrek and Guardians of the Galaxy but it's also coming from the TV shows like American Idol and America's Got Talent.
If we're not careful we'll see the day when you have to pay by the word for every word you write and say due to corporate ownership of language.
Exactly.
That's exactly why I want copyright terms on works for hire to be shortened from 95 years to about 30 or so. Trying to get creators to be creative and productive nowadays is like herding cats, so using old dead IPs as a foundation seems like it might work better. It's a natural human impulse to recycle older stories, and copyright has stifled creativity by leaving creators rudderless in an ocean of content. Not only is it hard af to find and study older works for research despite Google existing, but you're legally barred from recycling ideas you find even on abandonware.
It's absolutely stupid that apathetic corpos can just squat on their abandonware IPs until 2095, when all the fans are long dead. Who does that benefit?!
Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 08, 2024, 10:31:48 AMQuote from: David Johansen on September 08, 2024, 10:04:41 AMI think what people are observing is the corpratization of everything. Corporations want franchises and safe bets, they let other people take risks and then buy up the properties and bowlderize them and then wonder why their new product isn't hailed as the most brilliant and greatest thing.
But even in music, we're in the kareokie age. It's heavily dominated by remaking songs from the seventies and eighties. This is partly due to movies like Shrek and Guardians of the Galaxy but it's also coming from the TV shows like American Idol and America's Got Talent.
If we're not careful we'll see the day when you have to pay by the word for every word you write and say due to corporate ownership of language.
Yep. Survivorship bias is a thing, but it also doesn't explain why certain times have way more literature survive than others. The Romantic period (Wordsworth, et al.) was a short burst of about 40 years, followed by about 5 decades of much fewer "classics" surviving, even though more literature was being produced. It has to do with the zeitgeist, the prevailing cultural winds, and also the economic and social structure of the time. There's a reason that Chinese thought and invention flourished during the Warring States period, just like there's a reason that the Romantic Period produced more memorable authors than the previous or following 50 years.
The whole "today is just like every other time" mantra is both true and false. People haven't changed. We are still fundamentally the same organisms we were 50,000 years ago, with the same biology, limitations, and moral failings. But our environment changes, our social and political structures change, and most importantly, the cultural incentives of our times change.
How much truly good literature or film came out of the Soviet Union? There was some, but nowhere near what was coming out of the West in the 70's and 80's. Our culture (and its emphasis) clearly contributed to that proliferation of good movies and books. Well, why should we be surprised when the level of our media declines as our western societies copy more and more of the ideals of the Soviets (censorship, political correctness, top-down management and thinking, etc.)? Culture matters, maybe more than any other factor. And our culture is different than the culture that spawned the classic RPGs of the 70's and 80's.
So, no, it isn't just our perspectives that have changed. The actual quality of works today has declined. At the beginning of each "Open Bar", the Critical Drinker will read off the top grossing movies of a year from the 80's, 90's, or early 2000's. When you compare just those top twenty or so movies, any of them would shine compared to all of the movies produced in the last ten years. And Hollywood was putting out ten of them every year. Our culture has changed, and it's hurting our creativity...
Nothing to add, but that was really insightful. Good post.
Quote from: Mishihari on September 08, 2024, 01:33:28 PMNothing to add, but that was really insightful. Good post.
Thanks! Hey, even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every once in a while...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 08, 2024, 03:13:32 PMQuote from: Mishihari on September 08, 2024, 01:33:28 PMNothing to add, but that was really insightful. Good post.
Thanks! Hey, even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every once in a while...
And now we know why Eirikrautha takes his disbabled rodent to the urinal with him...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 08, 2024, 10:31:48 AMQuote from: David Johansen on September 08, 2024, 10:04:41 AMI think what people are observing is the corpratization of everything. Corporations want franchises and safe bets, they let other people take risks and then buy up the properties and bowlderize them and then wonder why their new product isn't hailed as the most brilliant and greatest thing.
But even in music, we're in the kareokie age. It's heavily dominated by remaking songs from the seventies and eighties. This is partly due to movies like Shrek and Guardians of the Galaxy but it's also coming from the TV shows like American Idol and America's Got Talent.
If we're not careful we'll see the day when you have to pay by the word for every word you write and say due to corporate ownership of language.
Yep. Survivorship bias is a thing, but it also doesn't explain why certain times have way more literature survive than others. The Romantic period (Wordsworth, et al.) was a short burst of about 40 years, followed by about 5 decades of much fewer "classics" surviving, even though more literature was being produced. It has to do with the zeitgeist, the prevailing cultural winds, and also the economic and social structure of the time. There's a reason that Chinese thought and invention flourished during the Warring States period, just like there's a reason that the Romantic Period produced more memorable authors than the previous or following 50 years.
The whole "today is just like every other time" mantra is both true and false. People haven't changed. We are still fundamentally the same organisms we were 50,000 years ago, with the same biology, limitations, and moral failings. But our environment changes, our social and political structures change, and most importantly, the cultural incentives of our times change.
How much truly good literature or film came out of the Soviet Union? There was some, but nowhere near what was coming out of the West in the 70's and 80's. Our culture (and its emphasis) clearly contributed to that proliferation of good movies and books. Well, why should we be surprised when the level of our media declines as our western societies copy more and more of the ideals of the Soviets (censorship, political correctness, top-down management and thinking, etc.)? Culture matters, maybe more than any other factor. And our culture is different than the culture that spawned the classic RPGs of the 70's and 80's.
So, no, it isn't just our perspectives that have changed. The actual quality of works today has declined. At the beginning of each "Open Bar", the Critical Drinker will read off the top grossing movies of a year from the 80's, 90's, or early 2000's. When you compare just those top twenty or so movies, any of them would shine compared to all of the movies produced in the last ten years. And Hollywood was putting out ten of them every year. Our culture has changed, and it's hurting our creativity...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 08, 2024, 10:31:48 AMQuote from: David Johansen on September 08, 2024, 10:04:41 AMI think what people are observing is the corpratization of everything. Corporations want franchises and safe bets, they let other people take risks and then buy up the properties and bowlderize them and then wonder why their new product isn't hailed as the most brilliant and greatest thing.
But even in music, we're in the kareokie age. It's heavily dominated by remaking songs from the seventies and eighties. This is partly due to movies like Shrek and Guardians of the Galaxy but it's also coming from the TV shows like American Idol and America's Got Talent.
If we're not careful we'll see the day when you have to pay by the word for every word you write and say due to corporate ownership of language.
Yep. Survivorship bias is a thing, but it also doesn't explain why certain times have way more literature survive than others. The Romantic period (Wordsworth, et al.) was a short burst of about 40 years, followed by about 5 decades of much fewer "classics" surviving, even though more literature was being produced. It has to do with the zeitgeist, the prevailing cultural winds, and also the economic and social structure of the time. There's a reason that Chinese thought and invention flourished during the Warring States period, just like there's a reason that the Romantic Period produced more memorable authors than the previous or following 50 years.
The whole "today is just like every other time" mantra is both true and false. People haven't changed. We are still fundamentally the same organisms we were 50,000 years ago, with the same biology, limitations, and moral failings. But our environment changes, our social and political structures change, and most importantly, the cultural incentives of our times change.
How much truly good literature or film came out of the Soviet Union? There was some, but nowhere near what was coming out of the West in the 70's and 80's. Our culture (and its emphasis) clearly contributed to that proliferation of good movies and books. Well, why should we be surprised when the level of our media declines as our western societies copy more and more of the ideals of the Soviets (censorship, political correctness, top-down management and thinking, etc.)? Culture matters, maybe more than any other factor. And our culture is different than the culture that spawned the classic RPGs of the 70's and 80's.
So, no, it isn't just our perspectives that have changed. The actual quality of works today has declined. At the beginning of each "Open Bar", the Critical Drinker will read off the top grossing movies of a year from the 80's, 90's, or early 2000's. When you compare just those top twenty or so movies, any of them would shine compared to all of the movies produced in the last ten years. And Hollywood was putting out ten of them every year. Our culture has changed, and it's hurting our creativity...
Yeah, great post. At least this offers the hope that the golden age will one day return, whether or not we'll be alive to see it. There have clearly been numerous such periods throughout history, eg the late Roman Republic.
With the sheer volume of stuff that is coming out and has already been produced, Sturgeon's Law does apply. However even 1% of all that volume of stuff is still more than enough to keep me satisfied for decades.
Then again, I'm that kid in a stable full of shit convinced there is a donkey I'm gonna find.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 07, 2024, 09:10:58 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 07, 2024, 05:00:34 PMI don't see many new ttrpgs that compare with anything produced before the Great Recession. Both creativity and volume of writing have dramatically decreased.
Well, you're not looking really hard if at all:
Pundit's stuff
Kevin Crawford
DCC (even if they're going woke at breakneck speed)
Rob Necronomicon's Terminus
The zombie city by Grim Jim
And that's just of the top of my head without stopping to think, none of which is a retro-clone nor does it use other's IP.
IMHO you're blackpilled, want to remain like that and will rationalize to justify doing so.
My impression is that BoxCrayonTales isn't interested in OSR titles -- and he really wants something close to World of Darkness like Everlasting or WitchCraft. And to be fair, that particular style of game has grown less popular.
But even given limited taste in RPGs, one can easily play for ages using RPG material that has already been written. There's nothing wrong with older material. I just played a 1E Changeling game last weekend.
There are thousands of people playing supposedly "dead" games and having a great time doing so, just like how people read old books and watch old movies. I was just talking to a friend in church who was going to be talking to introduce a Laurel & Hardy movies today.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 08, 2024, 10:31:48 AMSo, no, it isn't just our perspectives that have changed. The actual quality of works today has declined. At the beginning of each "Open Bar", the Critical Drinker will read off the top grossing movies of a year from the 80's, 90's, or early 2000's. When you compare just those top twenty or so movies, any of them would shine compared to all of the movies produced in the last ten years. And Hollywood was putting out ten of them every year. Our culture has changed, and it's hurting our creativity...
I'd agree with the general principle that there are greater and lesser ages in creativity for different fields. In film, it's generally agreed that there was a Golden Age of Hollywood that ended in the 1960s, leading to lower-quality period in the late 1960s - after antitrust action and the dawn of television. I suspect Hollywood is going through similar in recent years. The rise of streaming, combined with the pandemic and the writer's strike all combined - as well as cultural shifts.
I was curious about this, so I tried assembling a sampling just from the middle of each decade.
| # | | | 1985 | | | 1995 | | | 2005 | | | 2015 |
| 1 | | | Back to the Future | | | Batman Forever | | | Revenge of the Sith | | | Jurassic World |
| 2 | | | Beverly Hills Cop | | | Apollo 13 | | | Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire | | | The Force Awakens |
| 3 | | | Rambo | | | Toy Story | | | War of the Worlds | | | Avengers: Age of Ultron |
| 4 | | | Rocky IV | | | Pocahontas | | | The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe | | | Inside Out |
| 5 | | | Cocoon | | | Ace Ventura 2 | | | Wedding Crashers | | | Furious 7 |
| 6 | | | Witness | | | Casper | | | Charlie and the Chocolate Factory | | | American Sniper |
| 7 | | | The Goonies | | | Die Hard with a Vengeance | | | Batman Begins | | | Minions |
| 8 | | | Police Academy 2 | | | Crimson Tide | | | Madagascar | | | Mockingjay - Part 2 |
| 9 | | | Fletch | | | GoldenEye | | | Mr. & Mrs. Smith | | | The Martian |
| 10 | | | A View to a Kill | | | Waterworld | | | Hitch | | | Cinderella |
Some films stand out as classics like
Back to the Future and
Apollo 13, but 1985 also has
Rocky IV and
Police Academy 2.
EDITED TO FIX QUOTE ATTRIBUTION
Quote from: jhkim on September 08, 2024, 06:17:17 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on September 07, 2024, 09:10:58 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 07, 2024, 05:00:34 PMI don't see many new ttrpgs that compare with anything produced before the Great Recession. Both creativity and volume of writing have dramatically decreased.
Well, you're not looking really hard if at all:
Pundit's stuff
Kevin Crawford
DCC (even if they're going woke at breakneck speed)
Rob Necronomicon's Terminus
The zombie city by Grim Jim
And that's just of the top of my head without stopping to think, none of which is a retro-clone nor does it use other's IP.
IMHO you're blackpilled, want to remain like that and will rationalize to justify doing so.
My impression is that BoxCrayonTales isn't interested in OSR titles -- and he really wants something close to World of Darkness like Everlasting or WitchCraft. And to be fair, that particular style of game has grown less popular.
But even given limited taste in RPGs, one can easily play for ages using RPG material that has already been written. There's nothing wrong with older material. I just played a 1E Changeling game last weekend.
There are thousands of people playing supposedly "dead" games and having a great time doing so, just like how people read old books and watch old movies. I was just talking to a friend in church who was going to be talking to introduce a Laurel & Hardy movies today.
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 08, 2024, 04:42:07 PMSo, no, it isn't just our perspectives that have changed. The actual quality of works today has declined. At the beginning of each "Open Bar", the Critical Drinker will read off the top grossing movies of a year from the 80's, 90's, or early 2000's. When you compare just those top twenty or so movies, any of them would shine compared to all of the movies produced in the last ten years. And Hollywood was putting out ten of them every year. Our culture has changed, and it's hurting our creativity...
I'd agree with the general principle that there are greater and lesser ages in creativity for different fields. In film, it's generally agreed that there was a Golden Age of Hollywood that ended in the 1960s, leading to lower-quality period in the late 1960s - after antitrust action and the dawn of television. I suspect Hollywood is going through similar in recent years. The rise of streaming, combined with the pandemic and the writer's strike all combined - as well as cultural shifts.
I was curious about this, so I tried assembling a sampling just from the middle of each decade.
| # | | | 1985 | | | 1995 | | | 2005 | | | 2015 |
| 1 | | | Back to the Future | | | Batman Forever | | | Revenge of the Sith | | | Jurassic World |
| 2 | | | Beverly Hills Cop | | | Apollo 13 | | | Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire | | | The Force Awakens |
| 3 | | | Rambo | | | Toy Story | | | War of the Worlds | | | Avengers: Age of Ultron |
| 4 | | | Rocky IV | | | Pocahontas | | | The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe | | | Inside Out |
| 5 | | | Cocoon | | | Ace Ventura 2 | | | Wedding Crashers | | | Furious 7 |
| 6 | | | Witness | | | Casper | | | Charlie and the Chocolate Factory | | | American Sniper |
| 7 | | | The Goonies | | | Die Hard with a Vengeance | | | Batman Begins | | | Minions |
| 8 | | | Police Academy 2 | | | Crimson Tide | | | Madagascar | | | Mockingjay - Part 2 |
| 9 | | | Fletch | | | GoldenEye | | | Mr. & Mrs. Smith | | | The Martian |
| 10 | | | A View to a Kill | | | Waterworld | | | Hitch | | | Cinderella |
Some films stand out as classics like Back to the Future and Apollo 13, but 1985 also has Rocky IV and Police Academy 2.
HEY LYING FUCK NUGGET!! IF YOU ARE GOING TO QUOTE ME, THEN POST WHAT I POSTED AND NOT WHAT SOMEONE ELSE POSTED!! I NEVER SAID WHAT YOU "QUOTED"!
Whats wrong with Rocky IV? Great movie.
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 08, 2024, 06:28:01 PMHEY LYING FUCK NUGGET!! IF YOU ARE GOING TO QUOTE ME, THEN POST WHAT I POSTED AND NOT WHAT SOMEONE ELSE POSTED!! I NEVER SAID WHAT YOU "QUOTED"!
My apologies. I messed up with cut-and-paste there. I've fixed attribution in the post.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 07, 2024, 09:15:57 PMWhich brings us to the next question, what can be done? Can we (the royal we) do it?
IMHO what we need is a filter, someone or several someones to go find the good stuff and help both the public find it and the creator to sell it.
I think we can do it, and as soon as I figure out OBS Studio I'm going to start a podcast for that. Also need a co-host(s) in the same time zone or close enough.
I'm not sure if there's anything we can do. Filtering is a fine idea but I don't know if it's even possible given the sheer number of products on offer. On one hand, the barrier of entry is practically non-existent. On the other, products can hang around on the internet for a long time even if practically no one buys them. So new products, many of them with marginal value at best, are constantly being added while unsuccessful products are, for the most, not removed. After years of this, there are hundreds of thousands of products available.
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 08, 2024, 03:58:47 PMQuote from: Eirikrautha on September 08, 2024, 03:13:32 PMQuote from: Mishihari on September 08, 2024, 01:33:28 PMNothing to add, but that was really insightful. Good post.
Thanks! Hey, even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every once in a while...
And now we know why Eirikrautha takes his disbabled rodent to the urinal with him...
Nah, I'll leave you at home...
People here are probably aware that my game is an 80s-themed game. I didn't think sandbox adventuring with an entire over-the-top decade was a super-niche, but I guess it is. I read this entire thread and affirm some of the comments.
On the concept of "heartbreaker" games, David Johansen said that it's only a heartbreaker if you invest a lot of money in it, have high hopes, and go broke. I also agree with him that the market is oversaturated.
I think that having high hopes, especially unrealistic or unverified high hopes, leads to overinvesting.
Kyle Aaron told of an author who had little success for a while, but over the years, wrote so much content, that as he gained an audience, new readers were interested in his vast back-catalogue. This is interesting, as I just had my biggest sale from someone who just showed interest in my RPG, and bought 2x of my full catalog.
JHKim makes an excellent point: Everyone and their sister seem to have made their own RPG. There are so many RPGs and many of them have enough material for a lifetime of play. There are only so many RPG players, so the hobby itself is sort of a niche of its own. How many games can they play? I know some people, a large number, buy RPGS that they never play. That must indicate that there's more material out there than is practical. Another thing that he said is that he loves "Dead RPGs". I understand that. Something is different with a game that is no longer producing new material. I love and play many defunct CCGs for that reason. It's a fixed canon. With "deaD" RPGs, if they produced enough material, or at least had rich lore and/or setting, that should be enough for an imaginative GM to have a lifetime of play available.
So, Box Crayon Tales summed it up this way: Ttrpgs are basically the old adage "don't go into writing as your job, go into it as a hobby."
That's exactly what I did! I wanted to play a teen drama game in a 1980s setting, and do it my way, and saw there was no game out there like it. So I thought, make my own. Also, I saw that as an empty niche, but one that may interest others if such a game existed, so I made it available commercially. I do modest promotion, and make modules that broaden the game's appeal, but it's always the kind of game that I want to play. And, if other people like it too, that's great. But if no one does, it's not much skin off my back, and my low-production runs might make them a collectible novelty in the future. I make the game not expecting to get rich, but making the game I couldn't find, and happy if others purchase the product and share in my enjoyment.
On Sturgeon's Law, I think we're experiencing Sturgeon's law on steroids! Yes, there is more of everything these days of democratized media, but I think the percentage of quality stuff, and I'm talking the writing, is lower. I find less I want to watch now than I do on Tubi. I love older TV, and with practically all of the older decades available now, good and poor, I prefer even bad classic TV to stuff today with high production values. We're currently in a Fecal Age of Television.
And why do companies hold on to "defunct IPs" until they're no longer viable. I agree 100% with Box Crayon Tales' assessment: "It's absolutely stupid that apathetic corpos can just squat on their abandonware IPs until 2095, when all the fans are long dead. Who does that benefit?!" I lost interest in the one RPG I've been into: The Fantasy Trip, and picked up Star Frontiers. This has potential to face a revival, but Wizards locked it up. In a way, that's great, since they can't destroy it like they did to D&D. But if they freed it to someone who cares, that would be awesome.
Explorer Wizard sums it all up:
QuoteFor those who think everything is crap-if that is the case then create your own stuff. I do it all the time. I create stuff for my own enjoyment and to share with my players. Beyond that, I have enough rpg material already. So when I see a lot of crap being released I just shrug and keep going.
Well, I've been all over the place, but the big takeaway is, make material with your own passion and interest in mind. Have fun with it. Make it the game YOU want to play. Share it with the public, while keeping your day job. If others enjoy your work and pay you money for it, even better. If you beat the odds and it becomes your primary source of income, that's totally mint! I hope that is your fate! But make your RPG with intent that it brings you fortune, and you're likely going to not enjoy your work, and face a heartbreak.
(PS: Speilberg's 2005 War of the Words is an indication that Hollywood is out of ideas and recycle good ones from the past, and they're better off not taking a classic and making it fecal.)
Right, I'm not into fantasy like D&D. It's oversaturated and I'm burned out on the genre. It's just gotten repetitive and annoying more than anything else. I've already seen all the most creative settings the genre has to offer. I already know all the classic heroes. Aragorn, Conan, the Nameless One, Elric...
Other genres are much worse off
Something to consider is that not everything needs a new RPG made for it. Right now, I'm seeing a lot of RPGs being made for solitaire play which is just an attempt to cash in on an emergent niche market, especially since all you really need is a supplement of rules to cover solitaire play in an already existing game system. Newer different RPGs are not needed as much as new adventures which take those RPGs into new gameplay.
A fantasy coffee shop adventure isn't what I'd like play, but you cannot say that it isn't a new direction with different gaming possibilities.
EDIT: I'm reading through Prison of the Hated Pretender by Gus L tonight to clear my head before sleep. At first glance it looks like a well graphically designed adventure that isn't special, but I'm getting more and more interested now in the writing. Take this quote:
QuoteRumors are a reward for players who interact with the setting and investigate locations they aim to plunder.
If you have GM'd for any length of time, you understand this instinctually. Yet I have never seen it written down like that. It is succinct and offers a clarity to the use of a tool for GMs. That's good stuff.
There is a lot of crap out there, it leads you to where there are donkeys as long as you are looking.
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 08, 2024, 10:32:02 PMSomething to consider is that not everything needs a new RPG made for it. Right now, I'm seeing a lot of RPGs being made for solitaire play which is just an attempt to cash in on an emergent niche market, especially since all you really need is a supplement of rules to cover solitaire play in an already existing game system. Newer different RPGs are not needed as much as new adventures which take those RPGs into new gameplay.
Having played a ton of 5 Parsecs (solo RPG lite wargame) I disagree. A system designed for solo play, especially on the combat front, needs to take into account that there's one person running everything. Either the game has to scale down to one character, or be able to accomodate one player running multiple characters
and NPC enemies. Not every system can do that out of the box.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 09, 2024, 07:19:22 AMQuote from: jeff37923 on September 08, 2024, 10:32:02 PMSomething to consider is that not everything needs a new RPG made for it. Right now, I'm seeing a lot of RPGs being made for solitaire play which is just an attempt to cash in on an emergent niche market, especially since all you really need is a supplement of rules to cover solitaire play in an already existing game system. Newer different RPGs are not needed as much as new adventures which take those RPGs into new gameplay.
Having played a ton of 5 Parsecs (solo RPG lite wargame) I disagree. A system designed for solo play, especially on the combat front, needs to take into account that there's one person running everything. Either the game has to scale down to one character, or be able to accomodate one player running multiple characters and NPC enemies. Not every system can do that out of the box.
Yet solo play options have been available and used since 0D&D with the Random Dungeon Generator. I'd even go so far as to say that if a RPG can't handle the spectrum of play from solitaire to one-on-one to group play, then it isn't a worthwhile RPG. In the terms of the OP, the niche of solo only play is a niche of a niche of a niche (niche cubed?).
I definitely think that universal systems are underutilized and more valuable than making a new system for every new game. D20 Modern in the 2000s was the de facto universal game for everything that wasn't D&D. Despite its flaws I think it did very well at bringing players together and introducing them to new genres and premises they would otherwise never think of playing.
Nowadays everything is so fractured. If I want to play something like d20 modern's Thunderball Rally (1970s racing-themed action movies with animal sidekicks) or Hijinx (hanna barbera cartoons where meddling kids and their animal sidekick solve mysteries), then the only option I found thus far was Spirit of '77.
As something like Hijinx shows, it's not inordinately difficult to repurpose a system initially designed to represent the comically macho machine gun slaughter scene in Predator to instead handle child-friendly slapstick like that seen in Scooby Doo.
Meh, why do you need a new game? d20 Modern still exists.
Here (http://www.spellbooksoftware.com/d20mrsd/srdhome.html) is the SRD for it, including the SRD for Urban Arcana and d20 Future.
This idea that only games that are currently being "supported" can possibly be played is a silly standard for a hobby where the core of consists of physically printed books.
People are still playing Basic, 1e, 2e, and 3e using their original books (not retroclones).m
The argument that your only option for Thunderball Rally or Hijinx is to use the Spirit of '77 system is invalid.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 09, 2024, 09:31:27 AMD20 Modern in the 2000s was the de facto universal game for everything that wasn't D&D.
I participated in several gaming groups across 3 states and they included the staff of three different gaming stores during 2001-2015.
None of them ever touched D20 Modern or spoke of anyone that did, so I reject your theory.
Quote from: Chris24601 on September 09, 2024, 10:26:28 AMMeh, why do you need a new game? d20 Modern still exists.
Here (http://www.spellbooksoftware.com/d20mrsd/srdhome.html) is the SRD for it, including the SRD for Urban Arcana and d20 Future.
This idea that only games that are currently being "supported" can possibly be played is a silly standard for a hobby where the core of consists of physically printed books.
People are still playing Basic, 1e, 2e, and 3e using their original books (not retroclones).m
The argument that your only option for Thunderball Rally or Hijinx is to use the Spirit of '77 system is invalid.
Not to mention that Spirit of '77 is for emulating certain type's of movies, and that you can still find those minigames floating in the web.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 09, 2024, 09:31:27 AMI definitely think that universal systems are underutilized and more valuable than making a new system for every new game. D20 Modern in the 2000s was the de facto universal game for everything that wasn't D&D. Despite its flaws I think it did very well at bringing players together and introducing them to new genres and premises they would otherwise never think of playing.
Nowadays everything is so fractured. If I want to play something like d20 modern's Thunderball Rally (1970s racing-themed action movies with animal sidekicks) or Hijinx (hanna barbera cartoons where meddling kids and their animal sidekick solve mysteries), then the only option I found thus far was Spirit of '77.
As something like Hijinx shows, it's not inordinately difficult to repurpose a system initially designed to represent the comically macho machine gun slaughter scene in Predator to instead handle child-friendly slapstick like that seen in Scooby Doo.
D20 Modern had it's time, but GURPs already existed, with much more material to emulate different genres than d20 ever had, also better researched.
GURPS is also a better universal system than D20 ever was, and despite it not receiving a new world/source book since forever it's still around. I hate it but it's there.
IMHO (and I have said so before IIRC) HERO had the right idea when they were publishing whole games a la Star/Pulp/Fantasy/Etc Hero, BECAUSE you can play those without having to think about how to build everything from scratch or what to include/exclude. Instead they were stupid and went the way of GURPS, last edition is two fucking bricks and you need to make all the work to play anything, which is why those universal systems never grew beyond their fanatical supporters to reach the masses.
Thanks anyway.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 09, 2024, 12:06:45 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 09, 2024, 09:31:27 AMI definitely think that universal systems are underutilized and more valuable than making a new system for every new game. D20 Modern in the 2000s was the de facto universal game for everything that wasn't D&D. Despite its flaws I think it did very well at bringing players together and introducing them to new genres and premises they would otherwise never think of playing.
D20 Modern had it's time, but GURPs already existed, with much more material to emulate different genres than d20 ever had, also better researched.
GURPS is also a better universal system than D20 ever was, and despite it not receiving a new world/source book since forever it's still around. I hate it but it's there.
Yeah. Even aside from judgement of quality -- GURPS was still thriving in the early 2000s. It came out with its 4th edition in 2004, and was publishing lots of sourcebooks revamped for GURPS4E as well as standalone RPGs under the Powered-by-GURPS standalone line (like the Discworld RPG and Prime Directive). It was the go-to universal system in the early 2000s, not D20 Modern.
And lots of people still play GURPS today. There's no reason to ignore either D20 Modern or GURPS just because there aren't new books being published right now. I suspect there's still a bigger GURPS community today than there is a Spirit of '77 community.
The Amber Diceless RPG still has a thriving community even though it has been dead for nearly thirty years. I just got player assignment for AmberCon Northwest, which is a terrific game convention in Portland.
I'd be interested in a campaign of CJ Carella's Witchcraft. I've always wanted to try it.
Quote from: jhkim on September 09, 2024, 12:45:47 PMAnd lots of people still play GURPS today. There's no reason to ignore either D20 Modern or GURPS just because there aren't new books being published right now. I suspect there's still a bigger GURPS community today than there is a Spirit of '77 community.
There are still new books being published. They are digital releases except for Gaming Ballistics 3PP releases.
https://warehouse23.com/collections/new?filter.p.m.product.format=Digital+%28PDF%29&filter.p.m.products.category=Roleplaying+Games&filter.p.m.products.edition=GURPS+Fourth+Edition
https://gamingballistic.com/
Quote from: estar on September 09, 2024, 03:49:31 PMQuote from: jhkim on September 09, 2024, 12:45:47 PMAnd lots of people still play GURPS today. There's no reason to ignore either D20 Modern or GURPS just because there aren't new books being published right now. I suspect there's still a bigger GURPS community today than there is a Spirit of '77 community.
There are still new books being published. They are digital releases except for Gaming Ballistics 3PP releases.
https://warehouse23.com/collections/new?filter.p.m.product.format=Digital+%28PDF%29&filter.p.m.products.category=Roleplaying+Games&filter.p.m.products.edition=GURPS+Fourth+Edition
https://gamingballistic.com/
Sorry, my bad. All the more reason to say that GURPS is still active, and there's no reason not to play it.
Quote from: jhkim on September 09, 2024, 05:19:03 PMQuote from: estar on September 09, 2024, 03:49:31 PMQuote from: jhkim on September 09, 2024, 12:45:47 PMAnd lots of people still play GURPS today. There's no reason to ignore either D20 Modern or GURPS just because there aren't new books being published right now. I suspect there's still a bigger GURPS community today than there is a Spirit of '77 community.
There are still new books being published. They are digital releases except for Gaming Ballistics 3PP releases.
https://warehouse23.com/collections/new?filter.p.m.product.format=Digital+%28PDF%29&filter.p.m.products.category=Roleplaying+Games&filter.p.m.products.edition=GURPS+Fourth+Edition
https://gamingballistic.com/
Sorry, my bad. All the more reason to say that GURPS is still active, and there's no reason not to play it.
Except it being a IMHO shitty system
I do consult GURPS books for research
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 09, 2024, 06:05:21 PMI do consult GURPS books for research
IMHO the only use GURPS has.
Almost nothing ever actually goes away in the ttrpg market. World of Synnibarr and SLA Industries have both been around for about 30 years now. Neither one of them ever found any real popularity. They are both still here. World of Synnibarr got a new edition in 2018. SLA Industries was publishing new material as recently as last year. A lot of these are things people do as a hobby or passion projects. Commercial success or the lack of it doesn't really matter that much. The normal process of creative destruction just doesn't happen.
Quote from: yosemitemike on September 09, 2024, 11:48:19 PMAlmost nothing ever actually goes away in the ttrpg market. World of Synnibarr and SLA Industries have both been around for about 30 years now. Neither one of them ever found any real popularity. They are both still here. World of Synnibarr got a new edition in 2018. SLA Industries was publishing new material as recently as last year. A lot of these are things people do as a hobby or passion projects. Commercial success or the lack of it doesn't really matter that much. The normal process of creative destruction just doesn't happen.
I've always had a thing for Earthdawn...despite how it's never really been all that popular for many reasons.
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 09, 2024, 11:58:51 PMI've always had a thing for Earthdawn...despite how it's never really been all that popular for many reasons.
Earthdawn is another one that never really found much popularity but is still with us anyway. The 4th edition came out in 2015 and DTRPG has 30 products for it available right now.
I'm a GURPS fan but back in the day I don't think GURPS ever surpassed Palladium in sales. So I guess the question would be how you want to determine the top universal system. Is it sales? Number of groups playing? What you were buying and wished you were playing at the time? I'm thinking sales is probably the most reliable metric but I don't know how d20 Modern compared to Palladium over specific years.
Personally first edition GURPS was generally tighter and better thought out than third and fourth but fourth fixed things that didn't work in the wider context of the bigger game. All third edition managed to do is make ranged combat unplayable.
Quote from: yosemitemike on September 09, 2024, 11:48:19 PMAlmost nothing ever actually goes away in the ttrpg market. World of Synnibarr and SLA Industries have both been around for about 30 years now. Neither one of them ever found any real popularity. They are both still here. World of Synnibarr got a new edition in 2018. SLA Industries was publishing new material as recently as last year. A lot of these are things people do as a hobby or passion projects. Commercial success or the lack of it doesn't really matter that much. The normal process of creative destruction just doesn't happen.
Passions projects are the lucky ones. They're not subject to the whims of corpos.
The customer base is drawn to high production values and pretty pictures. The rule of cool dominates all things with its oversized swords and ridiculously wide stances. The content is secondary, the writer is tertiary. Anyone who cares enough to know who Gary Gygax and JRR Tolkien were is some kind of far right radical.