Talislanta 2e or 3e are good candidates for the OP. Free to download these days. Once you get to 4e it starts to get a bit narrative-y in the magic system, but still not too much.

Quote from: yosemitemike;909197D&D 5e

It's not a retroclone but it has something of that vibe and style of play.  Mechanically, it's much simpler that D&D 3.X (I include Pathfinder here) or D&D4.  it uses a D20+bonuses>=target number mechanic.  Skill checks are attribute checks.  Characters that are proficient in a skill get a standard proficiency bonus based on level.  Level 1-4 characters get a +2.  It has inspirations but they are not really a meta mechanic.  They are a one time bennie for doing something cool or good role-playing however the DM defines that.  They let you roll a D20 twice and pick the one you want to use once.

I do like that WotC has moved the dial back w/5e toward older editions in certain ways but IMHO hit points for Thieves and M-Us are way too high (d8 (!!!) and d6, respectively).

In OD&D and B/X, Thieves have d4 hit dice.  They are meant to die horribly.

Quote from: Baulderstone;909208Just to add a few additional details:Magic World is Stormbringer/Elric after Chaosium lost the license and had to remove its Moorcockian skin. That is a good or bad thing depending on what you want to do with it.

The first edition of Stormbringer is incredibly random. Your new character might be a powerful sorcerer or he might be a leprous beggar. We had a lot of fun with it in the day, as it is a fairly deadly game even for powerful characters, so we would just play the hell out of whatever we got, then roll up something entirely new and random when they died. It's definitely not a style that all players can embrace. Later editions are a lot more balanced, which is both a good and bad thing.

That sounds pretty damn cool.

Quote from: estar;909214My view it works out best to use both. By all means read the original, and then read the retro-clone to get another take on the same game. Then come up with what you are going to use for your campaign. Most referee kitbash their campaigns anyway.  

For example Philotomy's Musings are a great companion to OD&D, and Swords & Wizardry has a readily editable word doc that you can cut and paste out of to make any type of supporting stuff you need.

I don't agree with everything, but Philotomy's Musings is overall quite excellent.

Quote from: Arminius;909240Talislanta 2e or 3e are good candidates for the OP. Free to download these days. Once you get to 4e it starts to get a bit narrative-y in the magic system, but still not too much.

I have Talislanta 1e, but will have to look at 2e & 3e, thanks!

Another RPG collection thread.

Quote from: Nuolde;909341I do like that WotC has moved the dial back w/5e toward older editions in certain ways but IMHO hit points for Thieves and M-Us are way too high (d8 (!!!) and d6, respectively).

In OD&D and B/X, Thieves have d4 hit dice.  They are meant to die horribly.

I have found that to be unpopular with players.  I can't imagine why.

Stormbringer - Try to get the last Chaosium Edition (5th). If you like RuneQuest and Call of Cthulhu, it's pretty much completes the 'trilogy' of original Chaosium games.
Mythras/RuneQuest 6 - Not sure if this is a retroclone or not, and the combat system sometimes draws sharp breaths from BRP fans, but it's a great comprehensive and committed attempt at doing a generic, gritty BRP game with some good supplements.
Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0 - Straight shooting system, even if the game world is dated (almost literally soon!)
Champions - possibly - although I find it way to complex, personally. Certainly old school though.
Pendragon - Polished/modified version of BRP, specific to Authurian gaming.

And for the point of asking the question, does Old School totally preclude things like Amber and Ars Magica?

Quote from: yosemitemike;909358I have found that to be unpopular with players.  I can't imagine why.

At my table, the role of thief generally goes to the most clever and daring player.  IMHO, giving a thief too many HP changes the feel and tone of a game by altering the risk/reward ratio.

But, then again, as a GM, I emphasize and encourage player skill over character abilities.  YMMV

Quote from: TrippyHippy;909387Stormbringer - Try to get the last Chaosium Edition (5th). If you like RuneQuest and Call of Cthulhu, it's pretty much completes the 'trilogy' of original Chaosium games.
Mythras/RuneQuest 6 - Not sure if this is a retroclone or not, and the combat system sometimes draws sharp breaths from BRP fans, but it's a great comprehensive and committed attempt at doing a generic, gritty BRP game with some good supplements.
Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0 - Straight shooting system, even if the game world is dated (almost literally soon!)
Champions - possibly - although I find it way to complex, personally. Certainly old school though.
Pendragon - Polished/modified version of BRP, specific to Authurian gaming.

And for the point of asking the question, does Old School totally preclude things like Amber and Ars Magica?

Thanks for the suggestions!

Amber is diceless, which is IMHO another hallmark of New School.  Don't get me wrong- I'm not saying that New School is bad, just that it's not what I want to GM.

I really like Ars Magica as a player, but it's a bit too crunchy for me as a GM.

Quote from: Nuolde;909520Amber is diceless, which is IMHO another hallmark of New School.  Don't get me wrong- I'm not saying that New School is bad, just that it's not what I want to GM.

I really like Ars Magica as a player, but it's a bit too crunchy for me as a GM.

Its a tricky one, as they are old games, but are still definitely abticedents of 'New School' sensibilities. Indeed, I think most of the ideas in 'new' games can be found in older games - Toon, Paranoia, Ghostbusters, Prince Valiant, Minds Eye Theatre (Live action Vampire), Over The Edge, Amber and Ars Magica. Sometimes the distinction is blurred.

In the case of Ars Magica, check out an early edition (1st or 2nd). You'll be surprised at just how much simpler it was when it started.

Amber dice-less also depends on a lot of player nararitive fiat. Many things in the game happen because and how the players say they do. With the right GM and players it can be excellent, with others, not so much. It also is not what I would call Old School.

Quote from: DavetheLost;909221Limted or no player fiat is a tricky one with T&T. The heart of resolution is the Saving Roll. In combat and other situations in which the players may want to try a trick or something unusual the GM sets a difficulty level and has the player make a Saving Roll. But teh difficulty is always set by the GM, so it is never a certainty.

The saving roll system is totally a fiat system which is one of the reasons T&T has a reputation for simplicity but the fiat isn't "narrative fiat" it's "how hard do you think that should be" fiat with virtually no guide lines as to what a fair difficulty level is.

I like thieves having a little more hit points than magic-users.

Quote from: RPGPundit;910532I like thieves having a little more hit points than magic-users.

Yes, that doesn't break my sense of verisimilitude.

However, giving thieves the same hp as clerics (as in 5e D&D) does break my sense of verisimilitude (it strikes me as far to video-gamey).  

IMHO, if you want to play a stealthy PC who can stand up in the front line of battle, you should play a fighter-type and use player skill to make him/her stealthy.

Has every game been mentioned yet? Who won?

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;912562Has every game been mentioned yet? Who won?

Dont think anyone mentioned Rifts yet.

Quote from: RPGPundit;910532I like thieves having a little more hit points than magic-users.

Agreed it gives them enough cushion to actually do there job.
After all its not like a thief sits on his ass all day reading about magic the way the mage dose.
And they are likely athletic and agile while they may not be the strongest and they most defiantly aren't made out of tissue paper.

Quote from: Nuolde;912545Yes, that doesn't break my sense of verisimilitude.

However, giving thieves the same hp as clerics (as in 5e D&D) does break my sense of verisimilitude (it strikes me as far to video-gamey).  

IMHO, if you want to play a stealthy PC who can stand up in the front line of battle, you should play a fighter-type and use player skill to make him/her stealthy.

My preferred breakdown for wizard/thief/cleric/fighter is either d4/d6/d8/d10 or d4/d6/d6/d8.