TheRPGSite

Have fun with this one, boys! Shred away!

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?833942-The-Free-Spacer-kickstarter-has-announced-that-they-don-t-want-MRAs-Nazis-and-other-shitlords-as-fans

Oh, it's funding level is telling. Maybe. I dunno. But, fuck them.

Edit: I noticed a lot of these retards are unemployed (as an overall bit on TBP). That’s not to say that being unemployed makes you a moron, but certainly one could spend less time railing about politics in elf-games and get a fucking job if you sweat dropping a buck on said elf-games.

Also, Adam Koebel is kind of a douche. I really like his characterization in Blades in the Dark, but otherwise...a whining weenie, it seems.

I’m gonna pass out now. Much love, ya’ll.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1056297Have fun with this one, boys! Shred away!

I'd seen this too, and almost commented on it at their site, but came to the conclusion it (a) would be a wasted effort and (b) should just be used as a case study to prove a large number of recently posted comments in various threads here about rpg.net and its members/administration.

All you have to say is Adam Koebel. Don't give him any money, btw. His political views should be no more than non-profit.

And RPG.NET's forum is purple for a reason.

There's a weird relationship with capitalism going on with this kind of thing.

We're going to sell our product on the open market to anyone willing to pay - but pretend we're not really doing that!

There's also a kind of pre-admission of defeat going on here as well.  If the need to publish something separate from a game in order to try and influence it's intended audience to have the kind of politics you want then obviously you're already conceding in advance the futility of trying to actually make the games themselves have any kind of political effect.  So much for the "idea of social justice ingrained within" - it can't be that ingrained can it if you're afraid people completely unsympathetic to the idea might still like your game?  

(It's also bizarrely ruling out the idea that people unsympathetic to the game's politics might play the game and become sympathetic.  Which, while obviously not likely to happen, would seem to be a necessary possibility if you want to claim your game to have political content in any meaningful sense).

I'm not a fan of all this cross-forum drama. Why give publicity to bad people? It's different if good (or just ordinary) people are being directly attacked or threatened, but I think general scumminess should just be ignored.

£10,369
pledged of £11,738 goal
461
backers
65
hours to go

This looks like a desperate attempt to whip up enough publicity to get this failing project to reach its Kickstarter goal.

I had been watching this KS because I was intrigued by the preview stuff, but I vote with my wallet. If you mix politics with your RPG, you go fuck off.

I play lots of games at the same table with self-professed SJWs and we always have a good time because everyone leaves their retarded shit at the door. We know we're there to have fun and toss dice, not to pass judgment on each other via purity tests.

It's funny how Men's Rights Activists are targeted. The most vocal MRAs I've met are stepmoms whose husbands and children were horribly abused by the family law courts. The other surprisingly loud "MRA" group are moms of boys who want to raise solid men, not SJW approved broken bitches. I'm always surprised how the SJWs forget how many moms fiercely love their sons and their husbands as men, never wanting them to become dickless weaklings.

I wonder if this is gonna be another "go woke, go broke" Kickstarter campaign where the author pockets the cash and runs for the hills.

The question I'd want to ask:

"Define 'Nazi'."

Again it looks like common sense has been catapulted to Pluto with this one.

So, some no mark company releases a stupid 'lets all hug' statement and all these purple people start saying.
"I wasn't going to back this project but after this I will."

I mean, who cares if the game is good it's only the politics that really matter.:rolleyes:

Quote from: S'mon;1056303£10,369
pledged of £11,738 goal
461
backers
65
hours to go

This looks like a desperate attempt to whip up enough publicity to get this failing project to reach its Kickstarter goal.

What moron starts a Kickstarter without funds to top it off if he needs to?

Quote from: Rhedyn;1056320What moron starts a Kickstarter without funds to top it off if he needs to?

Maybe one who is using the Kickstarter as a means to gauge interest in a product without the need for the significant capital risk involved in said project.

What type of person runs a Kickstarter asking for more than they really need to kickstart their project?

I actually bit the bullet and responded to the lumping of MRAs with Nazis.  While this will virtually guarantee a hamster-wheel, I just don't agree with echo chambers.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1056320What moron starts a Kickstarter without funds to top it off if he needs to?

Probably too many that think Kickstarter equals free money without actually having to produce anything.

The pearl clutching and swooning about to pass out from the posters about trying to find any common ground over at Sodom and Gomorrah (TBP) is a hoot and predictable as hell. I hope the project fails. Go woke and stupidly announce it when kickstarting a project you deserve to go damn broke.

Quote from: ronwisegamgee;1056323I actually bit the bullet and responded to the lumping of MRAs with Nazis.  While this will virtually guarantee a hamster-wheel, I just don't agree with echo chambers.

Hopefully you won't get a ban yet given their standard procedure hopefully you won't miss that place. Not that it's something you should care really.

Quote from: TJS;1056301There's a weird relationship with capitalism going on with this kind of thing.

We're going to sell our product on the open market to anyone willing to pay - but pretend we're not really doing that!

There's also a kind of pre-admission of defeat going on here as well.  If the need to publish something separate from a game in order to try and influence it's intended audience to have the kind of politics you want then obviously you're already conceding in advance the futility of trying to actually make the games themselves have any kind of political effect.  So much for the "idea of social justice ingrained within" - it can't be that ingrained can it if you're afraid people completely unsympathetic to the idea might still like your game?  

(It's also bizarrely ruling out the idea that people unsympathetic to the game's politics might play the game and become sympathetic.  Which, while obviously not likely to happen, would seem to be a necessary possibility if you want to claim your game to have political content in any meaningful sense).

Look at Evergreen College and university of mizzou. They let the inmates take over the asylum. engaging in some very short term thinking that it would be okay to do nothing and let the students run rampant because it's all bout the "feels" and "reasons" instead of thinking about receiving funding and public perception. Both screwed themselves over with funding being cut, enrollment way down, and students with half a brain going elsewhere because they don't want a diploma with either colleges name on them.

Yeah, i was appalled by that thread as well...so men's rights activists are now shitlords? And more or less the same as Nazis?

As someone else already said, i want to see their definition for both Nazi and MRA. I probably can agree about the Nazi thing, but MRA? If you think MRA are shitlords then you have to include any and all feminists as well...because most of them are a lot more radical then the MRAs i know.

Then again we are talking about users mostly out of the US of A ... so maybe they do have totally crazy MRA members. But i am pretty sure (as demonstrated by lots and lots of idiots on rpg.net) so do feminists. So yeah, the pot calling the kettle black and all that... the level of double standards and hypocrisy on the social medias and places like TBP are beyond the pale.

Quote from: Chris24601;1056322What type of person runs a Kickstarter asking for more than they really need to kickstart their project?

Smart ones.

You put some money up front into the KS so people think there is interest (people like things that they think other people like). You ask for far more than you need up to how much you can cover yourself.

You then reap as many pre-orders that you can. With enough, you can order more inventory because production gets cheaper (generally*) the more you are making.

*Personal labor is infeasible at large enough volume and normally not calculated into the base cost.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1056315The question I'd want to ask:

"Define 'Nazi'."

Speaking as an MRA, Nazi, Shitlord, I adore Freespacer, and feel that it reflects my worldview. I feel right at home participating in the kickstarter. I would snuggle up and caress the creators, if I could.


I feel this is all fiercely tribalistic, identity stuff. The "other" can't possibly like what we like, because they are alien. It's like watching chimps hoot at another band of chimps over a watering hole.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1056307It's funny how Men's Rights Activists are targeted. The most vocal MRAs I've met are stepmoms whose husbands and children were horribly abused by the family law courts. The other surprisingly loud "MRA" group are moms of boys who want to raise solid men, not SJW approved broken bitches. I'm always surprised how the SJWs forget how many moms fiercely love their sons and their husbands as men, never wanting them to become dickless weaklings.

When people mention MRAs, I inevitably first think of Karen Straughan, who has spoken more intelligently and coherently about feminism than any feminist I have yet heard.

On topic: Gaming has been politicised, and the definitions of "other" means that if you disagree with the pogrom, you're going to be lumped in with a careless grouping of MRAs, Nazis, Shitlords and other poorly defined boogeymen.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1056307I had been watching this KS because I was intrigued by the preview stuff, but I vote with my wallet. If you mix politics with your RPG, you go fuck off.

I play lots of games at the same table with self-professed SJWs and we always have a good time because everyone leaves their retarded shit at the door. We know we're there to have fun and toss dice, not to pass judgment on each other via purity tests.

It's funny how Men's Rights Activists are targeted. The most vocal MRAs I've met are stepmoms whose husbands and children were horribly abused by the family law courts. The other surprisingly loud "MRA" group are moms of boys who want to raise solid men, not SJW approved broken bitches. I'm always surprised how the SJWs forget how many moms fiercely love their sons and their husbands as men, never wanting them to become dickless weaklings.

I wonder if this is gonna be another "go woke, go broke" Kickstarter campaign where the author pockets the cash and runs for the hills.

The primary beliefs of the MRM are quite moderate and really just not being a hypocrite about the sort of rights people pretend to advocate for. There are plenty of female MRA's, myself included.

What I actually think is shocking is all of the staunch female feminists who have sons, fathers, brothers, or husbands. They have these men in their lives that they claim to care about and yet villainize and scapegoat men.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1056344Speaking as an MRA, Nazi, Shitlord, I adore Freespacer, and feel that it reflects my worldview. I feel right at home participating in the kickstarter. I would snuggle up and caress the creators, if I could.


I feel this is all fiercely tribalistic, identity stuff. The "other" can't possibly like what we like, because they are alien. It's like watching chimps hoot at another band of chimps over a watering hole.

What about Freespacer is in keeping with any kind of right wing world view? I'd love a good right leaning RPG, but with the game's creator being such a SJW, I couldn't bring myself to give them a cent anyway.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1056345When people mention MRAs, I inevitably first think of Karen Straughan, who has spoken more intelligently and coherently about feminism than any feminist I have yet heard.

On topic: Gaming has been politicised, and the definitions of "other" means that if you disagree with the pogrom, you're going to be lumped in with a careless grouping of MRAs, Nazis, Shitlords and other poorly defined boogeymen.

Yeah, Karen Straughan is great. Watching her videos introduced me to a lot of important issues.

Yeah, the left is politicizing everything including gaming. Really, geeky activities in general have come under their attack. "Nazis" doesn't even mean anything anymore. They call everybody that. The attacked Ben Shapiro and called him a Nazi even though he's a politically moderate Jew. The use of emotional language and buzz words allows them to silence opposition or even justify the most odious acts (including violence) without ever having to make arguments or to address their opponents' arguments.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1056348What about Freespacer is in keeping with any kind of right wing world view? I'd love a good right leaning RPG, but with the game's creator being such a SJW, I couldn't bring myself to give them a cent anyway.

I'm mocking the idea that they can curate who likes their RPG.

Quote from: S'mon;1056302I'm not a fan of all this cross-forum drama. Why give publicity to bad people? It's different if good (or just ordinary) people are being directly attacked or threatened, but I think general scumminess should just be ignored.

I too am no fan of the cross-forum drama.  Isn't there a thread in Pundit's forum for this sort RPG.net crap?


The game sounds very unoriginal -- a Firefly fan-wank, TBH, and honestly, not appealing at all to me.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1056349I'm mocking the idea that they can curate who likes their RPG.

Oh, okay, I see. I was feeling mixed emotions for a minute. I liked the idea of a game that appealed to "an MRA, Nazi, Shitlord" but hated the idea of supporting a game whose creator said the stuff he did.

Confess! (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?833942-The-Free-Spacer-kickstarter-has-announced-that-they-don-t-want-MRAs-Nazis-and-other-shitlords-as-fans&p=22119938#post22119938)

(https://i1.wp.com/www.mbird.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Spanish-Inquisition-Monty-Python.jpg)

Yes, kids. If you are into RPGs and discussing them online, you are going to have to justify your politics, and pledge fidelity to the orthodoxy. Or stand silent while the cardinals preach.

Aside: Shieldwife, are you the Shieldwife? Or did you just adopt the name?

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1056360Aside: Shieldwife, are you the Shieldwife? Or did you just adopt the name?

I am the YouTuber named ShieldWife. You can go post a comment to one of my videos and I'll confirm it.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1056362I am the YouTuber named ShieldWife. You can go post a comment to one of my videos and I'll confirm it.

Neat! I'll take your word at it for now. Pleased to make your online aquaintance.

Quote from: The Exploited.;1056316Again it looks like common sense has been catapulted to Pluto with this one.

So, some no mark company releases a stupid 'lets all hug' statement and all these purple people start saying.
"I wasn't going to back this project but after this I will."

I mean, who cares if the game is good it's only the politics that really matter.:rolleyes:

Really makes you think, doesn't it?

It's almost like they specifically came out and said that knowing that they'd get a bunch of lazy virtue-signalers to give them money, not for something they care about, but so they can pat themselves on the back and pretend they're going to end an imaginary plague of what they define to be sexism, racism, misogyny, etc.

Quote from: The Exploited.;1056316who cares if the game is good it's only the politics that really matter.

That's pretty much the essence of this site as soon as someone cries SJW, and even before that.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1056344It's like watching chimps hoot at another band of chimps over a watering hole.

Good clean fun here (except for the feces being flung) until the monolith teaches one side to kill the other side with bone clubs.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1056363Neat! I'll take your word at it for now. Pleased to make your online aquaintance.

Thank you. Nice to meet you as well. :)

I had an epiphany a couple of years back: if J.R.R. Tolkien, an orthodox, traditionally inclined Catholic, chaste husband and father, and political minarchist/reactionary, can have his work adopted and to some extent appropriated by free-loving neopagans and hippies, then the relationship between creator, creation and fandom can be far more fraught than a lot of people would like to admit.

  And while I asked for a definition of 'Nazi' above, 'feminist' is just as useless a term, since it can range from 'the right for women not to be mutilated or killed before/at birth' to' the right for women to mutilate or kill their children before/at birth.' The only terms that seem more degraded in contemporary discourse are 'love' and 'hate.'

   Trying to bring this back to gaming, am I still allowed to be a fan of Savage Worlds, Pendragon/Paladin, and pre-WotC D&D? I know I'm already a renegade when it comes to 4E D&D, Star Wars and Star Trek. :)

I was looking forward to posting "get woke, go broke" but it's too early, they're a thousand away with two days to go, so still in reach.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1056315The question I'd want to ask:

"Define 'Nazi'."

Well, that's the trick, isn't it?  If you get them on the record they mean actual, literal nazis.  But I remember when "punch a nazi" and "bash a fash" first came out, and were immediately followed by assaults on men and women wearing MAGA hats or known to have voted for Trump.  So it's pretty clear "nazi" is a stand-in for Trump voter or supporter of enforcing long-standing laws on immigration.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1056300And RPG.NET's forum is purple for a reason.

They're all into auto-erotic asphyxiation?

Quote from: Dave R;1056377Well, that's the trick, isn't it?  If you get them on the record they mean actual, literal nazis.

On the record, they literally said "if you self-identify as a Nazi", so their own personal definition isn't relevant. You might as well be arguing "So you call every Nazi you disagree with a Nazi?"

They didn't say "If you're a Nazi (by some nebulous, goalpost-shifting standard), then fuck off". They said "If you call yourself a Nazi, then fuck off". Regardless of anything else they've said, I think that's something everybody can agree with (except maybe people who proudly say "I'm a Nazi").

Quote from: TJS;1056301(It's also bizarrely ruling out the idea that people unsympathetic to the game's politics might play the game and become sympathetic.  Which, while obviously not likely to happen, would seem to be a necessary possibility if you want to claim your game to have political content in any meaningful sense).

This.

They're not trying to sway their opponents, or stand up for the oppressed, but close ranks.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1056320What moron starts a Kickstarter without funds to top it off if he needs to?

...

*sheepishly raises hand*

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1056345When people mention MRAs, I inevitably first think of Karen Straughan, who has spoken more intelligently and coherently about feminism than any feminist I have yet heard.

She also thinks Mister Metokur is out to destroy Honey Badger Radio.


So she's just as paranoid, irrational, and hypocritical as any other SJW.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1056349I'm mocking the idea that they can curate who likes their RPG.

Twisp And Catsby beat you to it (https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/24/the-adventures-of-twisp-and-catsby).

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1056371I had an epiphany a couple of years back: if J.R.R. Tolkien, an orthodox, traditionally inclined Catholic, chaste husband and father, and political minarchist/reactionary, can have his work adopted and to some extent appropriated by free-loving neopagans and hippies, then the relationship between creator, creation and fandom can be far more fraught than a lot of people would like to admit.

That led me to the interesting question regarding kickstarter. If I go and back this project and then identify myself as an MRA/Nazi/whatever before it funds, can the author refuse my funding before the kickstarter ends? Under kickstarter rules can my funding be refused? If I send this kickstarter into being funded, can the author then automatically decide to refund me once the kickstarter has ended?

How do you even police this once it gets sold in the public domain? If the pdf goes on sale at drivethru, will you now have to fill in preferences for your account details, "Please tick the following box if you identify as a Nazi, MRA etc.' "?

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1056371Trying to bring this back to gaming, am I still allowed to be a fan of Savage Worlds, Pendragon/Paladin, and pre-WotC D&D? I know I'm already a renegade when it comes to 4E D&D, Star Wars and Star Trek. :)

Do they or their authors have some secret agenda that I don't know about? Have they indicated that their product only be sold to 'certain' people?

Quote from: ponta1010;1056389Do they or their authors have some secret agenda that I don't know about? Have they indicated that their product only be sold to 'certain' people?

  It's a bit of dark humor based on the spreading idea that "we don't want fans who aren't sufficiently 'woke'."

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1056388

[video=youtube_share;ElXBhGhiRfQ]https://youtu.be/ElXBhGhiRfQ[/youtube]

So she's just as paranoid, irrational, and hypocritical as any other SJW.

That's a whole can of worms to open up. I'll say that Jim wanted to use the testimonial of an ex-MRA friend of hers who seems to be in the throes of some kind of mental issues. She was personally upset by Metokur, and did get a bit off the hook over it.

https://youtu.be/WKR34VNHHXo

Jim is out to fuck with everyone for lolz to impress his teenage audience. Sometimes he succeeds.

Quote from: Xuc xac;1056384On the record, they literally said "if you self-identify as a Nazi", so their own personal definition isn't relevant. You might as well be arguing "So you call every Nazi you disagree with a Nazi?"

They didn't say "If you're a Nazi (by some nebulous, goalpost-shifting standard), then fuck off". They said "If you call yourself a Nazi, then fuck off". Regardless of anything else they've said, I think that's something everybody can agree with (except maybe people who proudly say "I'm a Nazi").

   Yes, but there's a bit of breadth in the full statement, though:

QuoteI support feminism's basic principle: treating women as people. Free Spacer is an inclusive game that has the idea of social justice ingrained within it. I have never hidden my politics or claimed to be unbiased. I believe we live in a world where patriarchy and male privilege are real, ongoing problems, and equality for all people, regardless of sex, is a worthy goal.

On top of this, I believe in intersectionality. I stand in solidarity with women, PoC, indigenous peoples, LGBTQ2+, and anyone marginalised. The world is not fair and the patriarchy is a white straight wealthy patriarchy. The future needs to get better and it is up to everyone of us, as we make our way in the world, to make it better.

I want the Free Phase community to be one that is inclusive of all viewpoints, but must draw a line when there is a viewpoint that insists on attacking and offending others as an essential aspect of its existence. Free Spacer is about the future, you can use it to tackle many issues, but you should always do so with respect.

I find the politics of MRAs, Nazis, and their ilk to be toxic, offensive, and completely removed from reality. No matter how they may like to cloak their beliefs in the language of inclusiveness and equality, they support neither, and instead fulminate against the loss of privilege long afforded one half of society at the cost of another. Those who must attack the idea of another's equality to better preserve their own benefits are not the sort we wish to encourage. They're likely to do more harm than good in their toxic concern trolling and false equivalencies. So, I am making clear my stance on the issue and the type of community to which we would like to belong.

Here's my stance, the one that I share with Posthuman Studios: If you self-define as an MRA, nazi, or similar, please do not show up. I don't want you. My community doesn't have room for you. I want to be open and inclusive, but Free Spacer is not the place to debate if women are people or whether you have privilege.

   There's the reference to 'MRA, nazi, or similar," and the assumption smuggled in that if you don't believe in 'feminism' (an exceptionally broad and empty term these days), you don't accept that women are people. Can you understand why we might worry that when they say 'Nazi, MRA, or similar', they might just be using the first terms to tar all non-progressives as Enemies of the People?

Quote from: sureshot;1056331Probably too many that think Kickstarter equals free money without actually having to produce anything.

The pearl clutching and swooning about to pass out from the posters about trying to find any common ground over at Sodom and Gomorrah (TBP) is a hoot and predictable as hell. I hope the project fails. Go woke and stupidly announce it when kickstarting a project you deserve to go damn broke.



Hopefully you won't get a ban yet given their standard procedure hopefully you won't miss that place. Not that it's something you should care really.

After getting a formal warning from a mod and being pigeonholed into either being "mistaken about MRAs" or "being a troll," I don't care if I get banned from there.  The hobby is short enough on hobbyists as is, especially the non-D&D crowd; the overt injection and prominence of gender ideologues just reduces the number of people I want to game with. :(

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1056391That's a whole can of worms to open up. I'll say that Jim wanted to use the testimonial of an ex-MRA friend of hers who seems to be in the throes of some kind of mental issues. She was personally upset by Metokur, and did get a bit off the hook over it.

https://youtu.be/WKR34VNHHXo

Jim is out to fuck with everyone for lolz to impress his teenage audience. Sometimes he succeeds.

This right here. Jim is a troll, pure and simple. I've enjoyed some of his content, particularly the Hugbox Chronicles and DeviantArt... but I've had to unsubscribe from him recently, because he's legitimately doing things that are underhanded and wrong in my opinion.

Quote from: ronwisegamgee;1056402After getting a formal warning from a mod and being pigeonholed into either being "mistaken about MRAs" or "being a troll," I don't care if I get banned from there.  The hobby is short enough on hobbyists as is, especially the non-D&D crowd; the overt injection and prominence of gender ideologues just reduces the number of people I want to game with. :(

   Well, you've got what you accepted.

Yeah, I just got banned forever too.  Apparently I don't hate enough to hang with the other progressives.  Hopefully this site will set the bar lower for me.  I'm just not good at hating people or rejecting the humanity of those I disagree with.

Quote from: Vidgrip;1056408Yeah, I just got banned forever too.  Apparently I don't hate enough to hang with the other progressives.  Hopefully this site will set the bar lower for me.  I'm just not good at hating people or rejecting the humanity of those I disagree with.

I got banned myself a few years ago by Black Hat "I might have done things with an underage girl, and now I'm banned from RPG.net too!" McFarland!

He said I hated women, including my own mother and sister.

Well, I'm sure the ideologes over at TBP got their rocks off over throwing the MRA, Nazi devils off the ramparts over this.

Quote from: S'mon;1056303This looks like a desperate attempt to whip up enough publicity to get this failing project to reach its Kickstarter goal.

Ding! Winner.

It's the SJW equivalent of passing around the offering plate at church.

Holy fuck, that RPG.net thread is CRAZY TRAIN.

Quote from: ponta1010;1056389That led me to the interesting question regarding kickstarter. If I go and back this project and then identify myself as an MRA/Nazi/whatever before it funds, can the author refuse my funding before the kickstarter ends? Under kickstarter rules can my funding be refused? If I send this kickstarter into being funded, can the author then automatically decide to refund me once the kickstarter has ended?

I'm sure the shitbag will gladly take your money. Though I wonder what Kickstarter would do if creators started refusing backers for their alleged wrongthink.

If you want to blow some cash for LOLZ, it might be fun to back the game, then regularly post about the Dread Enemy in their updates and comment sections.

They do have a $1 pledge level...

Quote from: Vidgrip;1056408I'm just not good at hating people or rejecting the humanity of those I disagree with.

Don't worry padawan. We're here to help you master the WAYZ OF HATE! :)

Welcome aboard.

Well I see they have now scraped over the line by a couple hundred £. SocJus FTW I guess.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1056415Well, I'm sure the ideologes over at TBP got their rocks off over throwing the MRA, Nazi devils off the ramparts over this.

It's all over that thread. Anyone who questions the premise, let alone disagrees, gets labelled swiftly as The Enemy.

Stalin's jizzing in his grave.

Good news everyone! The general consensus on rpg.net is that a Nazi is someone who wants all the people they don't like dead.

Which just raises more questions.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1056391I'll say that Jim wanted to use the testimonial of an ex-MRA friend of hers who seems to be in the throes of some kind of mental issues.

How can anyone tell anymore?

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1056391She was personally upset by Metokur, and did get a bit off the hook over it.

Then she needs to own that a hell of a lot more than she's doing now. It's not like she's new to this game.

Quote from: Orphan81;1056403Jim is a troll, pure and simple. I've enjoyed some of his content, particularly the Hugbox Chronicles and DeviantArt... but I've had to unsubscribe from him recently, because he's legitimately doing things that are underhanded and wrong in my opinion.

Oh totally.

But given how aggressively he's gone after Mundane Matt, Bunty King, and Sargon of Akkad, he's an equal opportunity troll, which in the grand scheme of things I'm fine with.

Quote from: Vidgrip;1056408Yeah, I just got banned forever too.

And called a Nazi after you left.

Probably should ask rpg.net to remove that accusation.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1056453I'm sure the shitbag will gladly take your money. Though I wonder what Kickstarter would do if creators started refusing backers for their alleged wrongthink.

Only one way to find out.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1056453If you want to blow some cash for LOLZ, it might be fun to back the game, then regularly post about the Dread Enemy in their updates and comment sections.

A far more honest and effective tactic would be to simply state who you are and ask if you're welcome in their 'community'.

Quote from: S'mon;1056454Well I see they have now scraped over the line by a couple hundred £. SocJus FTW I guess.

It's unbelievable that this kind of shit works.

If you want to give your money to a political cause then do that.  But this is more like an environmentalist giving $100 dollars to his neighbour because he wants to upgrade to a more fuel efficient car.

Quote from: TJS;1056478It's unbelievable that this kind of shit works.

If you want to give your money to a political cause then do that.  But this is more like an environmentalist giving $100 dollars to his neighbour because he wants to upgrade to a more fuel efficient car.

Capitalism! Tricking commies into fighting for the rich one Starbucks at a time!

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1056473How can anyone tell anymore?

As someone who was a fan of Dean Esmay, and watching him go completely bonkers online for all to spectate, It's kind of a sore spot with me too.

QuoteThen she needs to own that a hell of a lot more than she's doing now. It's not like she's new to this game.

Maybe. Personally, I don't care. Metokur is a creepy troll, and I think the less mental energy spent on him is the less mental energy sucked into his drama vortex.

Quote from: TJS;1056478It's unbelievable that this kind of shit works.

It's how people filter their media consumption.

"I want to back your sci-fi fantasy game about hollowed out dragons being used as space ships by cyber-psychotic dwarves, but first I need to some things."
"Sure.  Let me guess: we're using a skill-based system rather than classes, with roll-under percentiles, and-"
"No no no.  I need to know how you stand on abortion!"
"You mean... in the setting?"
"Sure, but if you'd just share your personal stance that would save me a lot of time in making up my mind about the setting so I know to read it or not."

Anybody else remember when RPG.net had a -huge- crisis moment over the "Tournament of Rapists" adventure for Black Tokyo?  Hundreds and hundreds of people were commenting on it, boycotts of DriveThru were being organized (and pleas from unrelated self-publishers to -not- boycott, as their sales were how they afforded a cup of ramen once a month), company heads were speaking out against it.  And Drivethru said two people had actually downloaded the thing*.  So you had all this energy, all these opinions, and... none of them knew what they were talking about beyond a title basically.  The publisher came out, pulled their product, and pointed out the Tournament were bad guys to be fought, apologized (because you -have- to apologize for others' ignorance) and that was that.  

So it's a similar idea: people constructing reasons to support, or not support, something when they have little evidence to go by.

And given that TTRPGs on Kickstarter are generally a high-risk, low-reward venture for backers, they need -something- more to go by.  

(*I don't know what sociologists would call this.  "Echo chamber with an initial fart" doesn't sound right.  But it's not all that uncommon.  In literary circles, you have "the trouble with Susan" for the Chronicles of Narnia, where a bunch of really smart authors were upset that Susan wasn't in Narnia with the rest of her family at the end of the series because she liked wearing make up and going on dates.  Granted, none of the people complaining had read the book in question, or they'd realize -what- Susan had done and -why- she wasn't there (and I won't spoil it on the off chance somebody hasn't read a 70 year old series of children's books)).

Quote from: TJS;1056478It's unbelievable that this kind of shit works.

Well we have people here saying they're buying ACKS (good game!) on the same kind of principle. :D

Quote from: Vidgrip;1056408Yeah, I just got banned forever too.  Apparently I don't hate enough to hang with the other progressives.  Hopefully this site will set the bar lower for me.  I'm just not good at hating people or rejecting the humanity of those I disagree with.

I haven't posted there in years (over three), but I just logged in to check and am shocked I haven't been banned for off-site...whatevers.

Quote from: S'mon;1056454Well I see they have now scraped over the line by a couple hundred £. SocJus FTW I guess.

If you can call that winning. :rolleyes:

Wow. I'd just about given up on rgpnet already, but the linked thread cinches it. An especially obnoxious remark was

QuoteSince the Venn diagram of both is a almost perfectly overlaping circle with Nazis and it been the recruting pool for mass shooters... not , there is no wow about it.

Quote from: markmohrfield;1056531Wow. I'd just about given up on rggnet already, but the linked thread cinches it. An especially obnoxious remark was

Here's the funny part, this is based off an old study that claims Conservatives are more likely to be psychotic.  Thing is?  It's been found that the researches flipped the numbers.  Liberals are more likely to be psychotic.

That thread continues to be a gift of lols.

We're might need LoLz-Anon after this! Too many drunken LoLz binges!

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1056473A far more honest and effective tactic would be to simply state who you are and ask if you're welcome in their 'community'.

a) Does that tactic produce maximum LoLz? Cuz being "honest and effective" with asshats sounds like effort.

b) The creator and his clown car posse have already clearly stated wrongthinkers are NOT welcome in their community. The people banned on RPG.net weren't even championing wrongthink, they were just questioning the premise of the virtue signaling nonsense.

The game looks like shit, but his declaration got him what he wanted: money from people who will never play the game.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1056576We're might need LoLz-Anon after this! Too many drunken LoLz binges!



a) Does that tactic produce maximum LoLz? Cuz being "honest and effective" with asshats sounds like effort.

b) The creator and his clown car posse have already clearly stated wrongthinkers are NOT welcome in their community. The people banned on RPG.net weren't even championing wrongthink, they were just questioning the premise of the virtue signaling nonsense.

True.  The only way to participate there and not get banned is to say that you hate bad people and free speech and signal the quantity the hatred, as in 8 out of 10.  Each post must up the hatred, 10 out of 10, 11 out of 10, "no, I'm 12 out of 10", etc.  Failure to keep up means you're a nazi.  This will continue until the only one left is the moderator who hates bad people and free speech "infinity times eleventy-leven jillion ... plus one ... out of ten".  I'm glad I tapped out early at respecting free speech and hating nobody.

I went back to see how putrid the simmering turd of this thread's topic had become and DAMN! Words cannot express how stupid those people are! Everyone knew that already, but holy fuck are they some hateful, hypocrites. What's really funny is the game isn't even part of the conversation, just ignorant, Lefty dipshittery. I wonder how much longer rational people need to endure the disease of SocJus and its spin-off crazy. Ugh. I need a drink...;)

Quote from: RPGPundit;1056603The game looks like shit, but his declaration got him what he wanted: money from people who will never play the game.

What he wanted was money.  That's all you had to say.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1056576Does that tactic produce maximum LoLz? Cuz being "honest and effective" with asshats sounds like effort.

It puts them in a position where they must reveal their cards on something as mainstream as Kickstarter, with is pretty LoL worthy. Because by making the statements they have they've established that selling you their game is the equivalent of welcoming you into the community and endorsing you as a individual.

• So if they welcome you, then they've confirmed you're not a Nazi, which will put them in conflict with anyone who thinks you are.
• If they don't, then they're engaging in the same kind of gatekeeping they claim to be against, which they can't do without implying you're a Nazi and thereby violating Kickstarter's ToS.
• If they refuse to answer, then they're not actively curating their community and enforcing their code of conduct, which would imply this virtue signaling was only done to garner more sales.

Trolling them for the LoLz on the other hand only justifies everything they're doing. It's just the other side of the same worthless coin.

Quote from: Vidgrip;1056610The only way to participate there and not get banned is to say that you hate bad people and free speech and signal the quantity the hatred, as in 8 out of 10.

We're talking about Kickstarter however. Rpg.net has absolutely no problem with telling someone "you are not welcome here" and banning them on a whim. Kickstarter can be held to a higher standard.

I mean this is the very definition of virtue signalling right? I mean was there a particular existing issue with "Nazi" and "MRA" types liking this product? I think it was a way to get Rpg.net to responsively virtue signal with their wallets.

I'm tempted to make this response there but it'll just get me banned and I don't see the point.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1056702It puts them in a position where they must reveal their cards on something as mainstream as Kickstarter, with is pretty LoL worthy. Because by making the statements they have they've established that selling you their game is the equivalent of welcoming you into the community and endorsing you as a individual.

• So if they welcome you, then they've confirmed you're not a Nazi, which will put them in conflict with anyone who thinks you are.
• If they don't, then they're engaging in the same kind of gatekeeping they claim to be against, which they can't do without implying you're a Nazi and thereby violating Kickstarter's ToS.
• If they refuse to answer, then they're not actively curating their community and enforcing their code of conduct, which would imply this virtue signaling was only done to garner more sales.

Trolling them for the LoLz on the other hand only justifies everything they're doing. It's just the other side of the same worthless coin.



We're talking about Kickstarter however. Rpg.net has absolutely no problem with telling someone "you are not welcome here" and banning them on a whim. Kickstarter can be held to a higher standard.

I'm not a lawyer, however they seem to have covered their asses with this:

"Projects that promote discrimination, bigotry, or intolerance towards marginalized groups", as Nazis aren't accepted as marginalized, even though they actually are, but whatever.

This one might be an avenue for a legal poke, but I don't know for sure:

"Offensive material (e.g., hate speech, encouraging violence against others, etc)." In the US, the "hate speech" bit won't hold water, but the ambiguity of "encouraging violence against others, etc" could cut either way.

I don't see KS giving any shits defending whatever's right and I would bet my next paycheck they'd scurry to defend SJW behavior long before risking the Leftist mob's wrath. You know, the tolerant ones?

Quote from: MWMattei;1056704I mean this is the very definition of virtue signalling right? I mean was there a particular existing issue with "Nazi" and "MRA" types liking this product? I think it was a way to get Rpg.net to responsively virtue signal with their wallets.

I'm tempted to make this response there but it'll just get me banned and I don't see the point.

Is it really a bad thing to be shunned by mentally stunted morons with hearts of the blackest hate?

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1056707Is it really a bad thing to be shunned by mentally stunted morons with hearts of the blackest hate?

Is it worth the effort to provoke one of the increasingly ugly reactions. I think I'm just done with rpg.net, this is the straw after the straw that broke the camel's back. (Apparently someone got banned for hinting at being a Biblical literalist regarding homosexuality.)

The good and bad news is we will likely see more of this kind of "game for the right kind of people" gambit but I suspect as the novelty wears off it's overall effect will be a negative, rather than saving a project teetering on the edge of success and failure.

At least the thought police will self-identify so I'll know to avoid them.

Quote from: MWMattei;1056715Is it worth the effort to provoke one of the increasingly ugly reactions. I think I'm just done with rpg.net, this is the straw after the straw that broke the camel's back. (Apparently someone got banned for hinting at being a Biblical literalist regarding homosexuality.)

The good and bad news is we will likely see this kind of "game for the right kind of people" gambit but I suspect as the novelty wears off it's overall effect will be a negative, rather than saving a project teetering on the edge of success and failure.

At least the thought police will self-identify so I'll know to avoid them.

Well-said. After reading my post that you quoted again, I realized I was asking myself the same question. :p

Huh.  You'd think they would have taken their Kickstarter announcement down from Page 10 of the thread at the top of the forum...

Quote from: MWMattei;1056704I mean this is the very definition of virtue signalling right? I mean was there a particular existing issue with "Nazi" and "MRA" types liking this product? I think it was a way to get Rpg.net to responsively virtue signal with their wallets.

   They're definitely afraid that there might be such an issue--if you read the thread, there is serious fear of the hobby being 'infiltrated' and 'co-opted' by such sorts.

   To be honest, if the declaration's taken at face value, I don't have much of a problem with it, at least the first part. I detest the Nazi ideology root and branch, and my only problems with World War II are some of the means we chose to fight it (the US internment camps, Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki ...) and the fact that we had to make alliance with the other archfiend, Josef Stalin, to beat Hitler. "MRAs" are not in the same league, and while there are certainly some lowlifes going by the label, it also looks to be a term as broad and useless as 'feminism'--I'll want statements on specific issues before I make any further judgments.

   The problem is that for fifty years, segments of the American Left have been throwing the label 'Nazi' at the entirety of the American Right. (Some on the Right have thrown the label 'Commie' at the Left, but that's not quite so common any more, and not nearly so shameful to them and the general public.) Thus, whenever the term gets used--especially after two paragraphs of intersectionalist pieties--it does raise, for some of us, the question "OK, when you say 'Nazi', do you mean 'people who believe in racial supremacy and racial conflict as the engine of history, national unity under a semi-divine leader, etc.', or 'anyone to the right of Trotsky'?"

To be the Devil's Advocate, I have to respect the Creator's action in light of Machiavelli. He wanted his KS to succeed, he targeted a frenzied audience with an emotional plea and got rewarded with their money.

Also, the SJWs did exactly what I advocate for everyone: Vote with your wallet. I can't fault them on that level because they put their money where their mouth is and financed a product which promotes their world view.

Of course...now the Creator has to deliver and there's quite a potential for LoLz there...

Quote from: Spinachcat;1056800Also, the SJWs did exactly what I advocate for everyone: Vote with your wallet. I can't fault them on that level because they put their money where their mouth is and financed a product which promotes their world view.

...and should the world by taken over by Nazi's anyway they can say "hey, don't blame us, we did our part - we backed that game."

Quote from: Spinachcat;1056800Also, the SJWs did exactly what I advocate for everyone: Vote with your wallet. I can't fault them on that level because they put their money where their mouth is and financed a product which promotes their world view.

Actually has anyone looked at the pre-release version? I thought about it and decided not to bother, but it struck me that the rpg's premise does not necessarily match what I understand to match the SJW's world view. The author would appear to, but I struggle to see how a free trader (possibly working for other interests/corporations) would not end up either working for unscrupulous entities at times or attempt to thwart said entities plans, thereby if successful end up being targeted by a much larger financially dangerous corporation.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1056800Of course...now the Creator has to deliver and there's quite a potential for LoLz there...

Enh, it's a small issue.  The Creator is just a lone person, fighting the good fight, trying to make the world a better place.  If he fails, well, he tried.  And isn't it more important to support a good guy trying to do good, than to treat KS as a pre-order system?  (the logic could be applied to -anyone- backing -any- highly political-screeching game.  Left or Right)

Now, expect the next three folks to try that same trick to quietly not get any support.  Because at the end of the day, KS -is- a freaking pre-order system where people expect to get the stuff they paid for (if you -don't- expect anything, that's what "No Reward" pledges are for) and when your "feels" consist of "I feel like I wasted my money and got ripped off" you aren't inclined to repeat your mistakes.  Meanwhile virtue signaling in an echo chamber forum is free, so you can show your support by "cheering on" the people you agree with... but not enough to risk your money on again.  

But hey, if it delivers it delivers.  And if it doesn't, maybe people will start to realize that (most) TTRPG KS projects are a bad thing to back.

Sadly enough it looks like going 'woke' in this case actually got the thing funded. Whether it's a good game or not seems to be irrelevant. :eek:

Quote from: The Exploited.;1056852Sadly enough it looks like going 'woke' in this case actually got the thing funded. Whether it's a good game or not seems to be irrelevant. :eek:

Getting people to contribute to a funding drive usually pays off (see: every SJW on patreon), whether it gets sales outside the outrage brigade is another matter.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1056297Have fun with this one, boys! Shred away!

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?833942-The-Free-Spacer-kickstarter-has-announced-that-they-don-t-want-MRAs-Nazis-and-other-shitlords-as-fans

Oh, it's funding level is telling. Maybe. I dunno. But, fuck them.

Edit: I noticed a lot of these retards are unemployed (as an overall bit on TBP). That's not to say that being unemployed makes you a moron, but certainly one could spend less time railing about politics in elf-games and get a fucking job if you sweat dropping a buck on said elf-games.

Also, Adam Koebel is kind of a douche. I really like his characterization in Blades in the Dark, but otherwise...a whining weenie, it seems.

I'm gonna pass out now. Much love, ya'll.

I wonder what would happen if someone made a Kickstarter that grouped together SJWs, Communists, Feminists, Islamic Terrorists, Murderers and Pedophiles as people you don't want to pledge.

My favorite post in that thread: "Racism and sexism are the goals of the modern American conservative movement."

It's an interesting worldview where you think 50% of the US population is voting for racism and sexism. This reminds me of a study where people today were more afraid of crime than ever(stranger danger), but statistically it's the safest it's ever been. There's this huge disconnect between reality and the mental state of people, likely due to 24/7 news media.

I sometimes wonder if what'll wipe out the human race isn't nukes, a virus or an asteroid, but the internet.

Quote from: Dracones;1056877My favorite post in that thread: "Racism and sexism are the goals of the modern American conservative movement."

It's an interesting worldview where you think 50% of the US population is voting for racism and sexism. This reminds me of a study where people today were more afraid of crime than ever(stranger danger), but statistically it's the safest it's ever been. There's this huge disconnect between reality and the mental state of people, likely due to 24/7 news media.

I sometimes wonder if what'll wipe out the human race isn't nukes, a virus or an asteroid, but the internet.

It just goes to show that anything is corruptible once it is perceived as the majority opinion.

New age moral panic.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1056864Getting people to contribute to a funding drive usually pays off (see: every SJW on patreon), whether it gets sales outside the outrage brigade is another matter.

Yeah, that's true man...

I've seen little SJW scaabs who write bait articles and then 'beg' for money through patreon. How sad is that? Get a fookin' job!

Just who would give these numtpies cash when there are starving children in the world?

Quote from: Dracones;1056877My favorite post in that thread: "Racism and sexism are the goals of the modern American conservative movement."

It's an interesting worldview where you think 50% of the US population is voting for racism and sexism. This reminds me of a study where people today were more afraid of crime than ever(stranger danger), but statistically it's the safest it's ever been. There's this huge disconnect between reality and the mental state of people, likely due to 24/7 news media.

I sometimes wonder if what'll wipe out the human race isn't nukes, a virus or an asteroid, but the internet.

It's an interesting cul de sac they've trapped themselves into.  The logic (of a kind) seems to be something like this.

1) Half the population are racist and sexist
2) If not actually Nazi's this makes them people who either sympathise with or don't do enough to condemn Nazis.
3) Such people are indistinguishable from Nazis - so are therefore also Nazi's.
4) You can't reason with Nazi's
5) Therefore you can't reason with half the population.

Solution: Seize the means of representation so they can pretend they've already won a battle they have no idea how to fight.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1056692What he wanted was money.  That's all you had to say.

I felt like the rest had to be said.  Any game designer wants to make money. I want to make money (I've been accused of being a really intense self-promoter, and I don't particularly deny that).

But it's a very different thing to want to make money from people who will USE your RPG books, versus being happy with getting money from people who will buy your game because of your politics and knowing that they will never ever use the material for anything at all.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1057169I felt like the rest had to be said.  Any game designer wants to make money. I want to make money (I've been accused of being a really intense self-promoter, and I don't particularly deny that).

But it's a very different thing to want to make money from people who will USE your RPG books, versus being happy with getting money from people who will buy your game because of your politics and knowing that they will never ever use the material for anything at all.

Which is why I said that all he wants is money.  You want to SELL people something, a setting, a gaming style, whatever, a product, but it's clear he doesn't.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1057184Which is why I said that all he wants is money.  You want to SELL people something, a setting, a gaming style, whatever, a product, but it's clear he doesn't.

More than that. The SJW in question wants a successful Kickstarter. It's the Current Year equivalent of a book contract.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1056706I'm not a lawyer, however they seem to have covered their asses with this:

It's really not about legal action though, just exposing the double standard.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1056738They're definitely afraid that there might be such an issue--if you read the thread, there is serious fear of the hobby being 'infiltrated' and 'co-opted' by such sorts.

That's why, despite the harm they cause, I still have sympathy for them.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1056870I wonder what would happen if someone made a Kickstarter that grouped together SJWs, Communists, Feminists, Islamic Terrorists, Murderers and Pedophiles as people you don't want to pledge.

You'd be attacked on all sides, because the perpetually offended would only see the parts which triggered them.

Quote from: Dracones;1056877My favorite post in that thread: "Racism and sexism are the goals of the modern American conservative movement."

What's scary is they honestly believe this.

Quote from: Dracones;1056877This reminds me of a study where people today were more afraid of crime than ever(stranger danger), but statistically it's the safest it's ever been. There's this huge disconnect between reality and the mental state of people, likely due to 24/7 news media.

Which is what happens when you put feelings over facts.

Quote from: Dracones;1056877I sometimes wonder if what'll wipe out the human race isn't nukes, a virus or an asteroid, but the internet.

You're not wrong.

I think it will be tardiness. And it will be too late to stop it!

Quote from: RandyB;1057228More than that. The SJW in question wants a successful Kickstarter. It's the Current Year equivalent of a book contract.

Kickstarter is fine so long as the product is mostly done already. It's not a bad system to make the first print run feasible & giving a bigger % of money to the creator (as Kickstarter takes a smaller cut than retail sites). But I've learned my lesson and no longer back anything which doesn't show off the product being either 90+% done or at least 2/3 done with a good track record. (*sigh* Star Citizen - I only backed for the core game rather than one of the crazies that threw in hundreds of dollars, but it's been about 5 frickin' years)

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1057285Kickstarter is fine so long as the product is mostly done already. It's not a bad system to make the first print run feasible & giving a bigger % of money to the creator (as Kickstarter takes a smaller cut than retail sites). But I've learned my lesson and no longer back anything which doesn't show off the product being either 90+% done or at least 2/3 done with a good track record. (*sigh* Star Citizen - I only backed for the core game rather than one of the crazies that threw in hundreds of dollars, but it's been about 5 frickin' years)

That is true when developing a product and selling it is the goal. When the goal is "successfully funded Kickstarter to claim bragging rights", that's a different thing. The latter is what has become prominent in the Current Year as the mark of "joining the 'In' Club".

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1057285Kickstarter is fine so long as the product is mostly done already. It's not a bad system to make the first print run feasible & giving a bigger % of money to the creator (as Kickstarter takes a smaller cut than retail sites). But I've learned my lesson and no longer back anything which doesn't show off the product being either 90+% done or at least 2/3 done with a good track record. (*sigh* Star Citizen - I only backed for the core game rather than one of the crazies that threw in hundreds of dollars, but it's been about 5 frickin' years)

I'll have a Kickstarter up soon-ish (pulling the trigger on a promotional website at the end of the month) and your concerns are precisely why I planned to launch it only once the writing was DONE and I had a full draft copy of the game to give out to all the backers upon successful completion of the Kickstarter.

Well, DONE minus a professional copy editor's proofing... which is one of the things on the list I'm asking for the funding for over and above paying for interior art and the print run itself... sundries like copy editors and copyright/trademark lawyers are things that are easy to overlook, more expensive than you'd think if you want them done well, but important if your goal is a professional publication.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1057285Kickstarter is fine so long as the product is mostly done already. It's not a bad system to make the first print run feasible & giving a bigger % of money to the creator (as Kickstarter takes a smaller cut than retail sites). But I've learned my lesson and no longer back anything which doesn't show off the product being either 90+% done or at least 2/3 done with a good track record. (*sigh* Star Citizen - I only backed for the core game rather than one of the crazies that threw in hundreds of dollars, but it's been about 5 frickin' years)

TTRPGs on KS are terrible things to back... from a consumer perspective.  The risk to reward ratio usually isn't there.  Occasionally you'll see good deals on PDFs, but generally anything else will either be cheaper in retail or not cost any more than what backers paid.  Meanwhile, you're money is tied up for months (or -years-), and you're at the mercy of a creator working in a field known for depressive burn outs and attention disorders.  Even experienced professionals can run into problems or just plain shit the bed.  

From the perspective of someone wanting to be a patron they're better.  But patrons shouldn't actually expect anything.

Which isn't to say there are no good TTRPG projects out there.  But you have to be -very- selective.

Quote from: Chris24601;1057314I'll have a Kickstarter up soon-ish (pulling the trigger on a promotional website at the end of the month) and your concerns are precisely why I planned to launch it only once the writing was DONE and I had a full draft copy of the game to give out to all the backers upon successful completion of the Kickstarter.

Well, DONE minus a professional copy editor's proofing... which is one of the things on the list I'm asking for the funding for over and above paying for interior art and the print run itself... sundries like copy editors and copyright/trademark lawyers are things that are easy to overlook, more expensive than you'd think if you want them done well, but important if your goal is a professional publication.

The Fantasy Trip Kickstarter just sent out initial PDFs, and gave the backers until next Monday to report any typos, which would be corrected in the print versions. So it's possible backers could actually do some useful proofreading. (Not enough to dispense with professional proofing, but maybe better for rules clarity, etc.)

Quote from: Chris24601;1057314I'll have a Kickstarter up soon-ish (pulling the trigger on a promotional website at the end of the month) and your concerns are precisely why I planned to launch it only once the writing was DONE and I had a full draft copy of the game to give out to all the backers upon successful completion of the Kickstarter.

I've advised everyone I've consulted for to do exactly this.  Some of them didn't listen.

Quote from: san dee jota;1057330TTRPGs on KS are terrible things to back... from a consumer perspective.  The risk to reward ratio usually isn't there.  Occasionally you'll see good deals on PDFs, but generally anything else will either be cheaper in retail or not cost any more than what backers paid.  Meanwhile, you're money is tied up for months (or -years-), and you're at the mercy of a creator working in a field known for depressive burn outs and attention disorders.  Even experienced professionals can run into problems or just plain shit the bed.  

From the perspective of someone wanting to be a patron they're better.  But patrons shouldn't actually expect anything.

Which isn't to say there are no good TTRPG projects out there.  But you have to be -very- selective.

Which is why I've almost* always backed only KS projects I felt like patronizing:).
And yes, even if one of those project fails, I wouldn't consider it money ill-spent. I wanted this kind of game to have a chance to be made - whatever the reason was at the time - and it got a chance...them bones just didn't roll well! Happens a lot when you want to give a chance to people who aren't professionals and aren't making a formulaic game.
Sometimes I've come to decide after the fact that my reasons to back it were misguided - but that's my fault only, isn't it;)?

*There were a couple exceptions where I treated it as a pre-order, but those were from people known to be hard-working on their next game, with a preview of the rules, and so on.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1057701I've advised everyone I've consulted for to do exactly this.  Some of them didn't listen.

Needing a consultant to tell you this should be the first clue.

Quote from: EOTB;1057834Needing a consultant to tell you this should be the first clue.

There are a surprisingly large number of things that a lot of projects just don't consider when putting together a Kickstarter. For a couple of basics;

- copyright/trademark attorney to make sure your rights are properly protected and everything is filed properly.
- business attorney if you're newly incorporating or going LLC.
- a CPA if you don't already have one since you're going to be receiving a large sum of money and that has all sorts of tax implications.
- a professional copy editor to punch up your prose.
- an advertising budget to promote the launch of the product once its complete.
- hopefully you'll already have a basic promotional site up, but do you want a web store for your products on your site? Do you want to link that with a PoD publisher to streamline shipping? How about a forum? All those things cost.
- have you factored in shipping costs for any physical backer rewards?
- don't leave out that Kickstarter takes about 25% of the total off the top. If you need 30k for the project you need to ask for 40k so you have what you need after Kickstarter gets their cut.

Ideally all of these are factored into you product cost, but if they're not you could quickly find yourself in a financial hole because you're having to either pay for them yourself (effectively selling you product at a loss for the initial run) or skipping one or more pretty important things to keep afloat.

I've known quite a few people who thought all they needed was a writer and an artist and the rest would somehow take care of itself. It won't. You're either starting or expanding a business and need to treat it as such or you'll end up hosing yourself.

If you wanna pull the "lone writer/starving artist" approach, release your work for free in small regular amounts and ask people to support you on Patreon or the like. A thousand true fans willing to put up $1-5 each a month for your content won't make you rich, but you can live on it (pretty comfortably in the midwestern USA... that's a mortgage on a nice house in a good school system, car payments, utilities and eating out a couple nights a nights a week for a family of four in my town).

Quote from: Chris24601;1057839There are a surprisingly large number of things that a lot of projects just don't consider when putting together a Kickstarter. For a couple of basics;

- copyright/trademark attorney to make sure your rights are properly protected and everything is filed properly.
- business attorney if you're newly incorporating or going LLC.
- a CPA if you don't already have one since you're going to be receiving a large sum of money and that has all sorts of tax implications.
- a professional copy editor to punch up your prose.
- an advertising budget to promote the launch of the product once its complete.
- hopefully you'll already have a basic promotional site up, but do you want a web store for your products on your site? Do you want to link that with a PoD publisher to streamline shipping? How about a forum? All those things cost.
- have you factored in shipping costs for any physical backer rewards?
- don't leave out that Kickstarter takes about 25% of the total off the top. If you need 30k for the project you need to ask for 40k so you have what you need after Kickstarter gets their cut.

Ideally all of these are factored into you product cost, but if they're not you could quickly find yourself in a financial hole because you're having to either pay for them yourself (effectively selling you product at a loss for the initial run) or skipping one or more pretty important things to keep afloat.

I've known quite a few people who thought all they needed was a writer and an artist and the rest would somehow take care of itself. It won't. You're either starting or expanding a business and need to treat it as such or you'll end up hosing yourself.

If you wanna pull the "lone writer/starving artist" approach, release your work for free in small regular amounts and ask people to support you on Patreon or the like. A thousand true fans willing to put up $1-5 each a month for your content won't make you rich, but you can live on it (pretty comfortably in the midwestern USA... that's a mortgage on a nice house in a good school system, car payments, utilities and eating out a couple nights a nights a week for a family of four in my town).

With the possible exception of IP legal work, even these shouldn't require a consultant because they're not RPG-specific, but "starting a business 101" applicable to anything beyond a lemonade stand.  

If my paid consultant is telling me stuff that a very basic google search turns up in the first 5 hits, we're both idiots.  

Note what I'm actually saying, which is limited to paying someone consulting fees to learn the above.

Quote from: EOTB;1057834Needing a consultant to tell you this should be the first clue.

Keep in mind that a SHOCKING number of Kickstarter RPGs have not followed this simple rule. The majority, I think.

Quote from: Chris24601;1057839- have you factored in shipping costs for any physical backer rewards?

- have you factored in -international- shipping costs too?  Do you know how to handle VAT, or are you "EU friendly"?  

Quote from: Chris24601;1057839- don't leave out that Kickstarter takes about 25% of the total off the top. If you need 30k for the project you need to ask for 40k so you have what you need after Kickstarter gets their cut.

Enh... more like 5% for KS and 5% for Paypal fees.  Now, if you want to use a fancy shmancy Pledge Manager (and yes, that's an "if") then there are more costs involved, but nowhere near a 15% cut.

Very fortunately, there are LOTS of resources for anyone to freely access to learn about Kickstarter pitfalls.

The biggest problem I see with KS that fail is Creator wants to do their Cool Thing, but forget they are now small business owners and the KS is mostly about the business stuff, not the creative stuff.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1058232Very fortunately, there are LOTS of resources for anyone to freely access to learn about Kickstarter pitfalls.

The biggest problem I see with KS that fail is Creator wants to do their Cool Thing, but forget they are now small business owners and the KS is mostly about the business stuff, not the creative stuff.

Yes, that's another big problem. I know some KS were really 'successful' but ended up promising extended rewards that were either more expensive than they could cover with the stretch or that were so complicated to deliver that they couldn't make them happen.