So, after yesterday's game, I need a mass combat system to resolve the results of what my players (Magnificent Bastards, the lot of them) have set in motion. Requirements are as follows:
1) Freely available online (can't emphasize this enough - there's no way I can justify making a RPG purchase at the moment)
2) Compatible with, or at least adaptable to, AD&D (2nd edition)
3) Doesn't require miniatures (although we could probably kitbash some tokens if necessary)
If you got $5 there the official 2nd edition Battlesystem rules (http://www.dmsguild.com/product/16943/Battlesystem-Miniatures-Rules-2e?it=1). Doesn't fulfill #1 and it is a minature rule set so you will need token at least to use it.
I prefer AD&D 1st Edition Battlesystem (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgameexpansion/11187/advanced-dungeons-dragons-battlesystem) for any edition of D&D because the heart of it is a combot result table that abstracts the effect of X guys with Y chance of hitting with Z damage with a single 2d6 dice roll.
I tried figuring out the math behind the chart and made a series of post on the effort (http://batintheattic.blogspot.com/search/label/Battle%20Machine).
There this for D&D 5th edition (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/2017_UAMassCombat_MCUA_v1.pdf). For AD&D 2nd Edition and CR. Download Swords and Wizardry and look at its CR ratings. Or use this (http://1-dot-encounter-planner.appspot.com/quick-monster-stats.html) and plus in the AD&D 2nd stats.
There are plenty of inexpensive paid alternative including the the D&D Companion Set, Chainmail, and GURPS Mass Combat. But free that are worthwhile are few and far between.
Found this, it's called By This Poleaxe (http://www.wargamevault.com/product/141199/By-this-Poleaxe) and is free.
From the blurb "By this Poleaxe is a four-page set of rules to allow a GM to run small-scale battles or skirmishes involving 15-120 combatants on each side without miniatures. The rules have been specifically designed to work with Labyrinth Lord or similar well-aged fantasy game. Can also be used in conjunction with By this Axe, a simple set of fantasy miniatures rules."
I would second By This Poleaxe and Battlesystem 1st edition.
However, a third option (also free AFAIK) is Hordes of Things. It may require a bit of work if you absolutely must convert stats, but I found it actually reduced my workload.
http://grognardia.blogspot.it/2010/08/hordes-of-things-for-free.html
For miniatures you can print tokens on stock card which are freely available with a quick search on images or oyu can make your own with Token Tool (also free)
http://www.rptools.net/downloadsw/.
1: The free Mass Combat rules for 5e over at WOTCs UA page: It isnt the best. But it gets the job done.
2: Warmachine from BECMI D&D: either get the PDF cheap or ask someone to send you a scan of the pages. Which are 6 pages. Could have swore it was released as a free pamphlet way back but cant find it.
3: Any given system that can be easily plugged into D&D. And theres several free ones. Some very basic. Some more robust. Some REALLY robust like Magic Realm.
Some freebies. YMMV on viability.
Crom: http://www.matakishi.com/crom.htm (http://www.matakishi.com/crom.htm)
Legio VIII: http://www.panzer8.weebly.com/uploads/4/6/7/2/4672947/legio_viii__pz8_fantasy_wargame_rules.pdf (http://www.panzer8.weebly.com/uploads/4/6/7/2/4672947/legio_viii__pz8_fantasy_wargame_rules.pdf)
Simple Fantasy Skirmish: https://petervodden.wordpress.com/portfolio/simple-fantasy-skirmish/ (https://petervodden.wordpress.com/portfolio/simple-fantasy-skirmish/)
system 100: http://www.1km1kt.net/rpg/d100-system-core (http://www.1km1kt.net/rpg/d100-system-core)
And many more.
I recommend the Domains at War free starter download (http://www.autarch.co/system/files/files/Domains%20at%20War%20-%20Free%20Starter%20Edition_2.doc). Largely because I can vouch for d@w: I just ran a really great little war one-shot using these rules last night, and they worked splendidly.
Granted, I used the full version (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/130961/ACKS-Domains-at-War-The-Complete-Set) since I backed the kickstarter. I did a quick read through and it seems like a decent if stripped-down representation of the d@w content.
Which again, was awesome. The players made a heroic foray and fought a giant and three regiments of goblins, collapsing the right flank of the goblin army and allowing a slim but substantial victory from their forces. This in what amounted to a single combat and one additional round of war combat resolution; really great, gameable stuff!
After 30+ years of looking for the perfect RPG mass combat system, and several disasters, I recommend Free Kriegsspiel (http://www.professionalwargaming.co.uk/160604-KriegsspielDSNotes-Mouat-O.pdf) (c) Prussian General Staff ca 1824.
Which works as follows:
Players say: "We do A (eg Our heavy cavalry charge the Orc flank)"
GM says: "OK, on an X+ on d6, B happens (eg on a 3+ the Orcs break and run)"
Basically the GM uses a mix of common sense, knowledge of the D&D game stats, and chance, to resolve player & NPC actions, typically on a 3-10 minute cycle depending on battle scale. Meanwhile PC personal combat is resolved using the standard rules, and will affect their side's chances on the d6 checks.
Quote from: Tulpa Girl;1023748So, after yesterday's game, I need a mass combat system to resolve the results of what my players (Magnificent Bastards, the lot of them) have set in motion. Requirements are as follows:
1) Freely available online (can't emphasize this enough - there's no way I can justify making a RPG purchase at the moment)
2) Compatible with, or at least adaptable to, AD&D (2nd edition)
3) Doesn't require miniatures (although we could probably kitbash some tokens if necessary)
Quick and dirty system: Treat a "unit" of multiple soldiers/creatures as one soldier/creature. For example, fighting 1000 goblins versus 100 giants. Each "goblin" represents 100 goblins. Each "giant" represents 100 giants. (Be sure to divide by the same number for all units.)
So you've effectively turned 1000 vs 100 into 10 vs 1. Much more manageable. After the battle, if casualties are an issue to consider, divide a "damaged" unit by it's total hit points to determine how many individuals are left.
If the 100 giants unit took 50% hit points, it would have 50 giants left standing.
*Edit* First sentence. The idea is to treat multiple combatants as one combatant to reduce the number of soldiers/creatures to track.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1023789Quick and dirty system: Treat a single "unit" as mulitples. For example, fighting 1000 goblins versus 100 giants. Each "goblin" represents 100 goblins. Each "giant" represents 100 giants. (Be sure to divide by the same number for all units.)
So you've effectively turned 1000 vs 100 into 10 vs 1. Much more manageable. After the battle, if casualties are an issue to consider, divide a "damaged" unit by it's total hit points to determine how many individuals are left.
If the 100 giants unit took 50% hit points, it would have 50 giants left standing.
This can work well, especially if you use frequent morale checks (2e AD&D has a good 2d10 based system derived from B/X D&D's 2d6) and have plenty of d20s to roll, so your units are not too big for the battle scale. Eg if a front of 100 goblins is attacking, better to treat it as 10 units of 10 & roll 10 d20s for the attacks. Then if say 4 hit, roll 4d6 for damage. If they hit men at arms units averaging 5 hp, remove 1 for every 5 damage.
1e-2e AD&D is still very close to its wargame roots, with eg the movement rates in inches. Back-conversion is very easy.
If converting at 10-1 scale, I recommend 3 minutes per combat round (as per 1e/2e Battlesystem). At 100-1 use 10 minutes (1 AD&D Turn) per combat round. Basically you take the square root of the conversion ratio (10>3.3 or 100>10), and it all works out nicely. :) For massed fire missile ranges & movement rates just use the listed " ranges on the tabletop, this keeps everything in balance.
Thanks for all the suggestions. By This Poleaxe is pretty much the sort of thing I was hoping for. I don't know yet if we're going to have it handle the entire battle, or just all the 1HD grunts while the more heroic/dangerous entities present get played out using the normal rules. Will see if my players have a preference.
(also, the Hordes Of Things link from the Grognardia page is dead)
Well, if you can scrape up $5 you can get the PDF for CHAINMAIL, the game that started it all, from DriveThruRPG.
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17010/Chainmail-Rules-for-Medieval-Miniatures-0e?it=1
I'm not really a wargamer - no experience there - I just wanted something to simplify a 75 vs 125 figure combat.
By the end of the year I should hopefully have the last of the medical debt paid off, and after that I'll allow myself the occasional gaming splurge.
Quote from: Tulpa Girl;1023909I'm not really a wargamer - no experience there - I just wanted something to simplify a 75 vs 125 figure combat.
By the end of the year I should hopefully have the last of the medical debt paid off, and after that I'll allow myself the occasional gaming splurge.
You should be just fine. Run it as Free Kriegspiel, using poker chips or paper bits - Post-it notes are one of my favorites - and use your own judgement. Maybe look at some YouTube videos on medieval combat - the Vyborg Swedes vs. Russians are very good - and you'll sail right through it.
Agreed. Just think "Are they light, medium, or heavy," and "are they particularly brave or particularly timid?"
And just make reasonable decisions. A unit of heavy foot hits about the same number of light foot? Bad day for the light foot.
That sort of thing.
Really, D&D can handle 75 v 125 quite easily. Break them down into units of 5 -10 men.
Roll initiative by side but allow units to be held in reserve to go after the other side's turn. Use AC and Movement as is. Roll 1d20 per guy in the front rank, +1 per level or hit dice to hit. Roll damage as d4 per hit for tiny weapons, d6 for small weapons, d8 for medium, d10 for large, d12 for huge. Remove tiny guys on damage rolls of 2+, small on 3+, medium on 4+, large on 5+, and huge on 6+. Check morale if a unit loses more than half of its guys in one round. D20 + Leader's Charisma value + Leader's Level or skill or whatever. +1 per supporting unit not engaged in combat but within one turn's movement. -2 if engaged on the flank, -4 if engaged on the rear. Conscripts make it on 13+, regular troops 11+, elite troops 9+. On a failure a unit is shaken and can't move until rallied. A shaken unit breaks and flees if it fails a morale check. Broken units can only run away and drop any weapons or shields in the process, thus losing any benefit from them even if they are rallied. A leader can attempt to rally a unit after it moves, allowing it to make another morale check.
You can handle hundreds and even thousands of men by the same basic set up. Just treat every ten or hundred men as one guy.
If you want a simple movement and range system, I'd suggest a movement rate of 1 space for slow troops, 2 spaces for average troops, 3 for heavy cavalry, and 4 for light cavalry. Thrown weapons have a range of 1, Slings have a range of 2, bows have a range of 3 and long bows and crossbows have a range of 4. Anything over half range has whatever long range penalty your D&D uses. Use a hex grid or one inch squares and simple counters for each unit.
With larger units, formations are possible. A block is the standard formation and must sacrifice half of its movement to turn. A square or circle moves at half speed but has no flank or rear. A column has a narrow front but can move along winding roads and scenery at full speed where a block would have to slow and turn.
Quote from: Tulpa Girl;1023909I'm not really a wargamer - no experience there - I just wanted something to simplify a 75 vs 125 figure combat.
By the end of the year I should hopefully have the last of the medical debt paid off, and after that I'll allow myself the occasional gaming splurge.
I posted this on another site. It's simple, easy and best of all, free of charge:
QuoteA very quick and dirty way I handle mass combat requires a bunch of six-sided dice. Roll one die for each combatant (I throw a bunch at a time). Every 6 is a hit, destroying 1 hit die of the enemy. For every hit die over 1, add +1 to the roll. Creatures and characters can take as many hits as they have hit dice. Creatures with multiple attacks roll that many times.
After that, you might want to add adjustments for things like cover, position, superior/inferior tactics and other things having to do with the scenario. For example, I had one battle with hobgoblins taking on human militia. Since hobs are much better than 0-level humans overall, I ruled that they scored hits on a 5 or 6, but unlike true 2 HD monsters, they could only take one hit.
The defender normally chooses losses.
Just draw up the units and the terrain on a piece of paper or dry erase board, then decide on adjustments (if any). Have each side roll initiative -highest roll goes first or can choose to wait. If one roll is more than double the opponent's roll, the side with the higher roll can go first/wait OR select enemy losses with up to 25% the hits scored. A 3-1 initiative roll allows up to half your hits to be used on your choice of targets (note that this is by troop type -individuals can't be targeted unless they are conspicuous in some way)..
Quote from: David Johansen;1023919With larger units, formations are possible. A block is the standard formation and must sacrifice half of its movement to turn. A square or circle moves at half speed but has no flank or rear. A column has a narrow front but can move along winding roads and scenery at full speed where a block would have to slow and turn.
Really good advice, but this stuff is lost gold. B)
Quote from: Tulpa Girl;1023909I'm not really a wargamer - no experience there - I just wanted something to simplify a 75 vs 125 figure combat.
By the end of the year I should hopefully have the last of the medical debt paid off, and after that I'll allow myself the occasional gaming splurge.
Well, if you want a more abstract system that is simple and focuses on the player characters, rather than something more like a wargame, Dark Albion has a mass combat system. If purchasing Dark Albion will be too expensive for you, in a few weeks I'll be releasing an issue of RPGPundit Presents which will cover the Domain Management and Mass-Combat rules from Dark Albion, and will probably cost about $2.99.
Quote from: estar;1023752I prefer AD&D 1st Edition Battlesystem (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgameexpansion/11187/advanced-dungeons-dragons-battlesystem) for any edition of D&D because the heart of it is a combot result table that abstracts the effect of X guys with Y chance of hitting with Z damage with a single 2d6 dice roll.
I tried figuring out the math behind the chart and made a series of post on the effort (http://batintheattic.blogspot.com/search/label/Battle%20Machine).
The 1e version was certainly good. I enjoyed it quite a bit and even used it with the Buck Rogers XXVc RPG for fleet vs fleet combat using ships. I'll certainly take a look at your notes and see if I can unearth some underlying mechanics.
The D&D BECMI Warmachine rules (fields of battle, sieges and domain rules) can be found in Dark Dungeons. Which is totally free as pdf.
Quote from: Teodrik;1024706The D&D BECMI Warmachine rules (fields of battle, sieges and domain rules) can be found in Dark Dungeons. Which is totally free as pdf.
LOL, I totally didn't realize that, and I have that book in print sitting on my shelf. Truth be told, I do default to that over Battlesystem most of the time, even in 1e. I should read through it again. I usually just grab the rules Cyclopedia because it's there. Oh and Link to Dark Dungeon on OBS (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/177410/Dark-Dungeons).
After the fallout from yesterday's session, I figured some of you may have been curious as to how things played out.
Okay, I know, none of you were actually curious. Shut up, I'm going to tell you anyways.
So, the setup: in a previous adventure, the PC's were exploring a tomb, and managed to deduce that prying loose the embedded circlet that would have given them access to the tomb's treasure would also have freed the Skeleton Warrior buried there, as well as the other undead in stasis in the nearby cemetery. Reluctantly, they left well enough alone.
More recently, they discovered that the nearby elves have been playing a long game at humanity's expense: having the forested borderlands slowly encroach on human territories in the last two centuriess since the plague, using various patsies (including the PC'S) to get rid of foes and threats that they didn't want to directly confront, using shapeshifting magics to infiltrate nearby human societies, and increase tensions so that humans would fight each other instead of advancing into what the elves think of as their lands.
So, the PC'S decide to try to remove the two threats by setting them against each other. They go back to the tomb, steal the circlet, and quickly vamoose. Not too long afterwards, the M-U with the aid of a Polymorph Self spell manages to hide the circlet just outside the far side of the elven tree-fortress, ensuring that the Skeleton Warrior and his various undead minions (mostly regular skeletons, with a few wights thrown in for good measure) would encounter the elves. Properly guaging how long it will take the undead to make it to the elven home, the PC'S make their preparations and proceed to watch the battle via a crystal ball.
The elves meet for battle outside of their tree-fortress, hoping to keep their few elven young safe inside away from battle. In terms of pure numbers, the elves outnumber the dead by a 5 to 3 ratio... but it doesn't really matter, as a SW causes anyone with 4 HD or less to flee in fear, which means about 97% of their forces turn tail and run back into their fortress, followed by the skeletons and all but one of the wights. Once inside (and out of direct sight of the SW) I give the rank-and-file elves a morale check, which they make, deciding to defend the fort and their young.
At this point we start rolling dice proper, using the By This Poleaxe rules, with the players rolling for the undead and me rolling for the elves. It takes a while to play out; the upshot being that inside the tree-fortress the skeletons and wights are all destroyed, but with massive casualties to elves (not counting the young only a half-dozen of their number remaining). Outside, the elves managed to destroy the remaining wight, but the SW's 90% magic resistance was too tough a nut to crack, and all of the high-level elves eventually fall.
Even though they orchestrated this carnage, the players decided that leaving the elf younglings to the non-existent mercy of the Skeleton Warrior was too much of a Moral Event Horizon for them, and so a couple of Reduce spells and a Teleport scroll later, they show up at the battle site to try to finish off the SW.
At that point we switch to standard AD&D play. I rule that the SW's hit points have been reduced by half, but it's still a tough slog for them - in part because of that 90% magic resistance, but also because the cleric has lost all access to her spells (go figure, the diety of light and life was kinda pissed that her LG follower was party to letting loose a greater undead upon the land). They eventually win, but not before the halfling fighter/thief gets killed.
Aftermath: the PC'S get away (not much the few remaining elves could do to stop them, to be honest). The M-U later sneaks back to retrieve the circlet so she can destroy it. The survivors pay to get the halfling Raised. The cleric now has to go on a major quest of atonement, which her comrades have chosen to accompany her on.
I love my players.
Quote from: S'mon;1023779Basically the GM uses a mix of common sense, knowledge of the D&D game stats, and chance, to resolve player & NPC actions, typically on a 3-10 minute cycle depending on battle scale. Meanwhile PC personal combat is resolved using the standard rules, and will affect their side's chances on the d6 checks.
THIS is what I recommend beyond any mass combat I've ever seen in any RPG.
Morale is extremely important. Humans do not like to die, and actively avoid it. Other races may or may not hold the same opinion. AKA, elves may bail on fights to live another day and have awesome escape tactics, while dwarves may never surrender and cultural worship of last stands. Orcs may be psycho-suicidal or glass cannons, aka your Orcs might berserk into mindless machines who can't change tactics (or even direction), but never give up, or your Orcs could be bully cowards who run away the moment they aren't winning the battle.
All of that is dependent on your campaign.
I also highly recommend watching some mass battle scenese on YouTube so you can see the ebb and flow of how directors show us the close combat of heroes vs. the mass combat vs. the decisions of generals vs. the movement of the masses.
Also, if its siege or army on the march, please consider how logistics are handled as well. There are LOTS of adventure ideas in the pre and post battle days.
Quote from: Tulpa Girl;1025194I love my players.
They sound awesome!
The political fallout (both earthly and divine) of this event are going to be terrific for campaign drama.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1025198Morale is extremely important. Humans do not like to die, and actively avoid it.
Yep! The trick is to give them an (apparent) way to not die.
In my game yesterday mighty Shieldbiter the winged dragonborn PC (Barbarian-17) & his three NPC companions - Sarene the Pirate Queen, Steelclaw the Dragonborn and Helga the Hoplite - were in big trouble after their war wyvern was shot down over the Isles of Ethereal Bells by the small army of Skandik pirates they were attempting to recruit; they took cover from the arrow storm in a small wood, then hid as the pirate army entered the wood to flush them out...
Things looked grim, but the 'heroes' managed to stay in cover until Shieldbiter spotted Frith the enemy commander, charged and killed him. The 'heroes' attacked, killed a few pirates, the veteran pirates fighting back fiercely. We played it out on a big Paizo forest battlemat, with dozens of pirate & viking type minis for the Skandiks. There was no way Shieldbiter's four were likely to defeat the 79 savage foes, but with repeated 'We want you to join us!' cries, and no 'heroes' going down (though it was close) by the time Frith & 14 of his men lay dead among the trees, the remain 64 vikings decided that jaw-jaw was better than war-war. Soon the Skandik horde were recruited and Sarene had added an eighth ship to her war fleet.
Conversely if Shieldbiter had been determined to kill every Skandik the battle would have raged for hours, he might well have lost, and certainly his companions would have perished.
The secret to success here (apart from taking cover & hiding) was that they quickly killed the enemy leader, who the pirates feared more than their enemy, then killed the first guy who popped up and said "I'm the leader now!", while making clear the Skandiks had a better option than fighting to the death. The rear 50 or so Skandiks weren't in great danger, but the ones actually in melee were getting wary of dying, and decided they had little reason to do so.
As Sun Tzu says, always leave your enemy a path for retreat. Most armies break and run at about 30% casualties. Let them.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1025319As Sun Tzu says, always leave your enemy a path for retreat. Most armies break and run at about 30% casualties. Let them.
I often remind players that fleeing is an option. Sometimes encounters are not scaled to balance to the party, meaning those who like to charge headlong into stupidity could have a very bad day. Remember, he who fights and runs away, lives to run another day. :D
Sounds like a very good session!