So I spent hours last night figuring out that the 14 mile by 9 mile floating fragment that the PCs claimed in my Volant/StarCluster 4 - Sabre & World mashup could potentially support a population of 14,400, of which 4200 could be non-farmers.
No one asked.
I'm a GM!
So... running on caffeine then?
Quote from: flyingmice;1004714So I spent hours last night figuring out that the 14 mile by 9 mile floating fragment that the PCs claimed in my Volant/StarCluster 4 - Sabre & World mashup could potentially support a population of 14,400, of which 4200 could be non-farmers.
No one asked.
I'm a GM!
:) Stay gold Clash!
How much land is farmed, how much fallow, fields and pasture? How much scrub or woodland? Is there water?
I applaud your desire for realistic detail. I guess that is low yield farming or much of the floating fragment area is unsuitable for farming. Otherwise it seems like the population you listed is a bit low.
There are 640 acres per square mile so this area equals
14 mi x 9 mi x 640 acres/sq mi = 80,640 acres
US style farming requires ~ 1 acre per person per year (http://www.farmlandlp.com/2012/01/one-acre-feeds-a-person/). If we assume that half the land is arable we could support over 40,000 people. Support for 14,400 people with US style agriculture would require less than 18% of the available space.
Quote from: flyingmice;1004714No one asked.
I remember sometimes mid- to late- '90s using GURPS Vehicles and GURPS Robots for GURPS 3e and building a space station. But to know the performance of the station's station-keeping rockets, I needed to know that actual mass of the station, so I built all the ships that were normally docked... and the smallcraft... and the space suits (built with the Robot rules), and even the little .1 cubic-foot miniature repair bots, along with figuring out the standard crew and passenger load of the station, and thus how much food needed to be grown and so on and so forth. There was no campaign attached to this exercise.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;1004981...... There was no campaign attached to this exercise.
Love it!
GURPS Vehicles is simultaneously the best thing ever and the worst thing ever. The absence of a fourth edition version is the main obstacle to my running GURPS SF. Also a major motivator for me writing my own games. Well, that and Traveller 5's endless state of revision.
Quote from: David Johansen;1005025GURPS Vehicles is simultaneously the best thing ever and the worst thing ever.
GURPS Vehicles was a dream come true for those who wanted to spend untold time building and rebuilding and preparing the crunch level of the game (basically those who could only game X hours per week but wanted to spend X+Y hours of the week thinking about gaming). GURPS Vehicles also taught me the difference between precision and accuracy. And, finally. towards the goal of better being able to judge game systems, it taught me to say, 'yes, but what have you accomplished with this endeavor?'
But in the late 90s, before D&D 3e had surfaced and long after complex old school games like Aftermath had left my field of view, it was a great way to spin my wheels (er, gyroscopes I suppose?).
Quote from: Willie the Duck;1004716So... running on caffeine then?
I am ALWAYS running on caffeine, Willie! :D
Quote from: RunningLaser;1004720:) Stay gold Clash!
Thanks Laser! :D
Quote from: Headless;1004735How much land is farmed, how much fallow, fields and pasture? How much scrub or woodland? Is there water?
This is using medieval methods - Renaissance would be more accurate, but I could find the figures for Medieval. That means half the land was fallow at any given time. Water should be no problem - the first thing they did was build a dam.
Quote from: Bren;1004949I applaud your desire for realistic detail. I guess that is low yield farming or much of the floating fragment area is unsuitable for farming. Otherwise it seems like the population you listed is a bit low.
There are 640 acres per square mile so this area equals
14 mi x 9 mi x 640 acres/sq mi = 80,640 acres
US style farming requires ~ 1 acre per person per year (http://www.farmlandlp.com/2012/01/one-acre-feeds-a-person/). If we assume that half the land is arable we could support over 40,000 people. Support for 14,400 people with US style agriculture would require less than 18% of the available space.
Now here's the fun thing. This is a mashup, and the PCs are from 2017 California, all grads of UCLA who have remained friends. They were flying to the Alaska Panhandle for a camping trip when they transited to the renaissance level world of flying islands in mid cloud. So they know what a group like that would know. One of them is an engineer, another is a veterinarian. There is also a professional park ranger/guide and a professional bush pilot. So maybe they can introduce some aspects of American style agriculture here.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;1004981I remember sometimes mid- to late- '90s using GURPS Vehicles and GURPS Robots for GURPS 3e and building a space station. But to know the performance of the station's station-keeping rockets, I needed to know that actual mass of the station, so I built all the ships that were normally docked... and the smallcraft... and the space suits (built with the Robot rules), and even the little .1 cubic-foot miniature repair bots, along with figuring out the standard crew and passenger load of the station, and thus how much food needed to be grown and so on and so forth. There was no campaign attached to this exercise.
Because you're a GM, dammit! You rock, Willie! :D
Quote from: David Johansen;1005025GURPS Vehicles is simultaneously the best thing ever and the worst thing ever. The absence of a fourth edition version is the main obstacle to my running GURPS SF. Also a major motivator for me writing my own games. Well, that and Traveller 5's endless state of revision.
Why don't you write your own GURPS Vehicles, David?
Quote from: flyingmice;1005118Now here's the fun thing. This is a mashup, and the PCs are from 2017 California, all grads of UCLA who have remained friends. They were flying to the Alaska Panhandle for a camping trip when they transited to the renaissance level world of flying islands in mid cloud. So they know what a group like that would know. One of them is an engineer, another is a veterinarian. There is also a professional park ranger/guide and a professional bush pilot. So maybe they can introduce some aspects of American style agriculture here.
Heh, well ... if none of them are professional farmers ...
And that being said, US-style agriculture's heavily dependent on oil-fueled machinery, modern fertilizers and modern-produced seeds, and it's an expertise-driven craft. Take it low tech? Eh, here's my analogy for that. I'm a lifelong camper. Between the ages of six and eighteen I lived in a tent for three months out of every year. From 1989-2003 I camped out 10-15 weekends a year. You'd think I'm an expert at it, and I am. I've absorbed a lot and done a lot and read a lot.
But.
Save for fishing, I've never hunted for meat. I've never lived off of forage. I've never camped without a nylon or canvas tent, with ample supplies for repairs. I've almost always cooked off of propane stoves. I've never been more than five miles from a paved road. The only time I ever had to deal with a serious wound in the wilderness, I packed the poor lady into my car and drove like the clappers for the Dartmouth College Medical Center, which was less than 45 minutes away, and I had recourse to a paramedic's crash kit while treating it. I've camped out in midwinter, but only three times in my life and never more than a week. I've never camped without ready access to an automobile. Sure, I know that if dumped with a bunch of you into a low-tech survival situation, I'd be better than most of you at it (to the degree that I turn 58 this Sunday, with several health woes). But I'm not sanguine about our chances; Grizzly Adams I make no pretense to be.
Quote from: Ravenswing;1005199Heh, well ... if none of them are professional farmers ...
And that being said, US-style agriculture's heavily dependent on oil-fueled machinery, modern fertilizers and modern-produced seeds, and it's an expertise-driven craft. Take it low tech? Eh, here's my analogy for that. I'm a lifelong camper. Between the ages of six and eighteen I lived in a tent for three months out of every year. From 1989-2003 I camped out 10-15 weekends a year. You'd think I'm an expert at it, and I am. I've absorbed a lot and done a lot and read a lot.
But.
Save for fishing, I've never hunted for meat. I've never lived off of forage. I've never camped without a nylon or canvas tent, with ample supplies for repairs. I've almost always cooked off of propane stoves. I've never been more than five miles from a paved road. The only time I ever had to deal with a serious wound in the wilderness, I packed the poor lady into my car and drove like the clappers for the Dartmouth College Medical Center, which was less than 45 minutes away, and I had recourse to a paramedic's crash kit while treating it. I've camped out in midwinter, but only three times in my life and never more than a week. I've never camped without ready access to an automobile. Sure, I know that if dumped with a bunch of you into a low-tech survival situation, I'd be better than most of you at it (to the degree that I turn 58 this Sunday, with several health woes). But I'm not sanguine about our chances; Grizzly Adams I make no pretense to be.
All agreed with. that's why I said "some aspects". Conceptual stuff, like proper crop rotation, contour plowing, nitrogen fixing by legumes, wind breaks, evaporative cooling - that kind of stuff they would know about and could introduce. I would assume they could probably eventually double or triple output per square mile.
Quote from: flyingmice;1005211All agreed with. that's why I said "some aspects". Conceptual stuff, like proper crop rotation, contour plowing, nitrogen fixing by legumes, wind breaks, evaporative cooling - that kind of stuff they would know about and could introduce. I would assume they could probably eventually double or triple output per square mile.
American style agriculture is increadibly inefficient per acre. Becuase thats not what it is optimised for. American agriculture is optimised for person. The most efficient the world has ever seen in food per person growing it. But we waste a lot of space.
Using 18% of the available space sounds right for a working farm. Around here 5 acres of farm, field and pasture, to 20 arces of wood lot seems to be the ratio.
What will they do for heat and building material?
If they chop down all the trees on that island they will all die.
Quote from: flyingmice;1005118There is also a professional park ranger/guide and a professional bush pilot. So maybe they can introduce some aspects of American style agriculture here.
Quote from: flyingmice;1005211All agreed with. that's why I said "some aspects". Conceptual stuff, like proper crop rotation, contour plowing, nitrogen fixing by legumes, wind breaks, evaporative cooling - that kind of stuff they would know about and could introduce. I would assume they could probably eventually double or triple output per square mile.
Simple crop rotation (grains/beans) was a huge advantage over medieval agriculture. It enabled the Dutch Golden Age, among other things. IIR their productivity per acre and per person was higher than the rest of Europe. Somebody over in Britain picked up similar methods which enabled the British to grow their population and economy. Of course trying to persuade people to change from the way grandad's grandma did things to some new fangled notions can be difficult.
That, and a staple of post-apoc fiction is the scared band of survivors with the Wise Old Low-Tech Expert, who tells them how to farm with the means to their hands.
And they listen to the WOLTE. And the WOLTE is right, and not talking out of his ass. We all know full well the propensity of people to hear what they want to hear, listen to the people who make them the airiest promises that seem to involve the least degree of sacrifice, that facts and hard science come far behind shibboleths, and that knowing what you're talking about doesn't make you able to express that eloquently.
Quote from: Headless;1005263American style agriculture is increadibly inefficient per acre. Becuase thats not what it is optimised for. American agriculture is optimised for person. The most efficient the world has ever seen in food per person growing it. But we waste a lot of space.
Using 18% of the available space sounds right for a working farm. Around here 5 acres of farm, field and pasture, to 20 arces of wood lot seems to be the ratio.
What will they do for heat and building material?
If they chop down all the trees on that island they will all die.
the PCs are well aware of that. For example, there is a small rain forest on the island, up against the central mountain, which used to face the prevailing wind. However, since the island tore itself loose from the earth, the island is free to float with the wind, and consequently it rotates in the wind. The PCs know that the rain forest will die because it no longer precipitates rain, and they plan to replant the dying trees with species gathered from other places on the island.
Quote from: Bren;1005266Simple crop rotation (grains/beans) was a huge advantage over medieval agriculture. It enabled the Dutch Golden Age, among other things. IIR their productivity per acre and per person was higher than the rest of Europe. Somebody over in Britain picked up similar methods which enabled the British to grow their population and economy. Of course trying to persuade people to change from the way grandad's grandma did things to some new fangled notions can be difficult.
Exactly, Bren!
Quote from: Ravenswing;1005332That, and a staple of post-apoc fiction is the scared band of survivors with the Wise Old Low-Tech Expert, who tells them how to farm with the means to their hands.
And they listen to the WOLTE. And the WOLTE is right, and not talking out of his ass. We all know full well the propensity of people to hear what they want to hear, listen to the people who make them the airiest promises that seem to involve the least degree of sacrifice, that facts and hard science come far behind shibboleths, and that knowing what you're talking about doesn't make you able to express that eloquently.
The PCs are going to have to attract a working population if they are going to make a go of this. There are only four PCs from 2017 Earth, and only one is a woman. They will have to bring in settlers from other islands, most of whom will be peasant farmers who will have age-old ways. This is something they are going to have to learn to deal with.
Yes, yes you are a GM! :) Keep on keepin' on!
Quote from: Opaopajr;1005405Yes, yes you are a GM! :) Keep on keepin' on!
Thanks Opa! You too! :D
Quote from: flyingmice;1005401the PCs are well aware of that. For example, there is a small rain forest on the island, up against the central mountain, which used to face the prevailing wind. However, since the island tore itself loose from the earth, the island is free to float with the wind, and consequently it rotates in the wind. The PCs know that the rain forest will die because it no longer precipitates rain, and they plan to replant the dying trees with species gathered from other places on the island.
They need a keel or a sea anchor so thr island stops spinning and the rain patterns can stabilize.
Quote from: Headless;1005443They need a keel or a sea anchor so thr island stops spinning and the rain patterns can stabilize.
Yes, but that will take time, which the rain forest may not have. They've talked about what to do if it goes tits up.
Wait. Step back a bit. You are saying this 9 by 16 mile floating land mass is big enough to generate its own weather. Instead of just getting what ever weather it floats through? And ypu are saying that the difference in hight between zero level ( basicly grpund level if it was still attached to the ground) and the average hight of the mountain is more important than the size of the island (total mass and hight) and the distance off the ground?
Quote from: flyingmice;1004714So I spent hours last night figuring out that the 14 mile by 9 mile floating fragment that the PCs claimed in my Volant/StarCluster 4 - Sabre & World mashup could potentially support a population of 14,400, of which 4200 could be non-farmers.
No one asked.
I'm a GM!
You're a GM, alright:D!
Me, I made up a tragic story about an Exalted NPC who is currently serving the Yozi, and whose previous incarnation is connected to the PCs' previous incarnation. Because of this, I assumed they might want to know it, and figured I'd better be prepared.
The player who met her first knocked her out and is currently keeping her sedated until they come up with a way to remove the Yozi's influence from her;). They were considering slaying her outright, but decided against it, because they know her Exaltation was changed in some way, and want to change her back at first.
Quote from: Headless;1005443They need a keel or a sea anchor so thr island stops spinning and the rain patterns can stabilize.
As may be, but Christ on a crutch, I don't think 21st century industrial man has yet come up with the technology en masse to craft a sea anchor or keel sufficient to check the rotation of a
hundred and fifty square mile island.
But we sure as heck can redivert fertilizer, plants, and water resources! Golden Gate Park is completely artificial, and larger than Central Park, NYC.
Your island needs a native peoples who are rapidly building nets along the edge of the floating island, a la Discworld. :)
Quote from: Ravenswing;1005638As may be, but Christ on a crutch, I don't think 21st century industrial man has yet come up with the technology en masse to craft a sea anchor or keel sufficient to check the rotation of a hundred and fifty square mile island.
We can't lift it off the ground and send it sailing through the sky either. Clearly the island is the source of high quality Unobtainium. They just need to find some of that. Or stabilize and alinign the islands natural lay lines with the terrestrial ones to stop the spinning. Or for a
purely scientific sky anchor 5 or 6 miles of iron chian, maginitized and running north to provide drag on the earths magnetic field.
Quote from: Headless;1005573Wait. Step back a bit. You are saying this 9 by 16 mile floating land mass is big enough to generate its own weather. Instead of just getting what ever weather it floats through? And ypu are saying that the difference in hight between zero level ( basicly grpund level if it was still attached to the ground) and the average hight of the mountain is more important than the size of the island (total mass and hight) and the distance off the ground?
No I am not. This floating land mass is floating. In the winds. These winds effectively no longer come from the same direction. The same tropical trade winds are now hitting the land mass form various directions, not because the wind is varying but because the land is turning. Also, the land is higher off the ground, and the wind is somewhat colder and drier. So the rain forest which had formed where the flanks of the central mountain were hit by the hot, wet trades is not going to get enough rain to sustain itself, and it therefore must become something else.
Quote from: AsenRG;1005605You're a GM, alright:D!
Me, I made up a tragic story about an Exalted NPC who is currently serving the Yozi, and whose previous incarnation is connected to the PCs' previous incarnation. Because of this, I assumed they might want to know it, and figured I'd better be prepared.
The player who met her first knocked her out and is currently keeping her sedated until they come up with a way to remove the Yozi's influence from her;). They were considering slaying her outright, but decided against it, because they know her Exaltation was changed in some way, and want to change her back at first.
I see you, too, are a GM! :D
Quote from: Ravenswing;1005638As may be, but Christ on a crutch, I don't think 21st century industrial man has yet come up with the technology en masse to craft a sea anchor or keel sufficient to check the rotation of a hundred and fifty square mile island.
Indeed that is a problem! That's a lot of mass. :D
Quote from: Opaopajr;1005641But we sure as heck can redivert fertilizer, plants, and water resources! Golden Gate Park is completely artificial, and larger than Central Park, NYC.
Your island needs a native peoples who are rapidly building nets along the edge of the floating island, a la Discworld. :)
The first step is to get a native people. four 21st century Californians can't do much alone.
Quote from: Headless;1005648We can't lift it off the ground and send it sailing through the sky either. Clearly the island is the source of high quality Unobtainium. They just need to find some of that. Or stabilize and alinign the islands natural lay lines with the terrestrial ones to stop the spinning. Or for a purely scientific sky anchor 5 or 6 miles of iron chian, maginitized and running north to provide drag on the earths magnetic field.
A solution most likely does lie with working with the natural properties of this world. A very good thought!
I would have just guessed. Unless there was a very good reason not to. Because I'm a GM.
I love settings like this.
In one of the longer lasting Earthdawn games I ran with a co-GM, the setting was 3 sky islands chained together with MASSIVE chains. The Theran nobility has ripped a mountain apart (& into 3 pieces), and had turned the largest piece upside-down to serve as the sky-anchor and the flat farmlands. The Therans are using bronze age farming techniques, so this needed to be a large space (hence the flat underside of the previous peak), and they scooped out a large shallow basin to serve as the system water supply. Middle sized island was where a local town had been (most of the non slave population lived here -- Therans are slavers), small elite island was the local fortified keep and surrounding hunting lands and domain of the Theran nobility and the local nobles who had aligned with them. This system weathered the Scourge fairly well high above the devastation. During the games, the ruins on the underside of the mountain became infested by Horrors, there was an upside-down dungeon crwal through most of them, and eventually the PCs caught the attention of the Dragons when they dealt with the Horrors and decided how/when/where to land "their new domain" (well, most of the nobles were dead by that point and the PCs had joined the rebellion).
That sounds like a cool game.
Quote from: Telarus;1006911I love settings like this.
In one of the longer lasting Earthdawn games I ran with a co-GM, the setting was 3 sky islands chained together with MASSIVE chains. The Theran nobility has ripped a mountain apart (& into 3 pieces), and had turned the largest piece upside-down to serve as the sky-anchor and the flat farmlands. The Therans are using bronze age farming techniques, so this needed to be a large space (hence the flat underside of the previous peak), and they scooped out a large shallow basin to serve as the system water supply. Middle sized island was where a local town had been (most of the non slave population lived here -- Therans are slavers), small elite island was the local fortified keep and surrounding hunting lands and domain of the Theran nobility and the local nobles who had aligned with them. This system weathered the Scourge fairly well high above the devastation. During the games, the ruins on the underside of the mountain became infested by Horrors, there was an upside-down dungeon crwal through most of them, and eventually the PCs caught the attention of the Dragons when they dealt with the Horrors and decided how/when/where to land "their new domain" (well, most of the nobles were dead by that point and the PCs had joined the rebellion).
This sounds wicked, Telarus! You must have had a great deal of fun there! :D
I love the 'modern people go back in time and build empires' genera. 1632 Eric flint. Against the tide of years SM stirling (haven't read any of the change I can never find the dirst one). I want to read a book about these sky cast time lost Californians.
Quote from: flyingmice;1007035This sounds wicked, Telarus! You must have had a great deal of fun there! :D
Not to sidetrack the thread, but it really was one of the best Earthdawn campaigns I've ran. One of the primary rebel NPCs was a headless undead Troll Nethermancer adept (who had been beheaded by the nobles, resurrected by his spirit allies, and then started the rebellion by hiding in the caves in the lower island), who tended to carry around his head in the crook of his arm.
The other really awesome moment was when one of the PC Adepts actually chose to accept one of the Horror's deals. It was during the final climactic fight on an airship hovering just underneath the main ruin on the underside of the mountain, over a large open volcano caldera (the islands had drifted over the volcanic region of Iceland). One of the large winged master-level Horrors was finally flushed out and it started attacking the ship and decimating the airship crew. The Elf Swordsmaster PC had found a strange stone/organic looking sword at the start of the campaign (actually an intelligent Horror), and my co-GM had been running it's conversations with the player. As his team and crew were dying all around him, the elf decided that he would take up his sword's offer of power (which had been whispered to the player through the whole campaign). With a peals of cackling laughter from the elf and his sword, the Swordsmaster mutated and changed into a chitinous-armored warrior (a la "the Guyver" movie from the 90s), threw himself off the ship at the winged Horror and plunged with it into the lava field below (all Balrog+Galdalf style) and the player got to use his sword-Horror's Karma Dice as bonus dice for all his attacks that round.
I was seriously impressed that a self-sacrifice like that emerged out of the gameplay... it was Epic. :D
Quote from: Headless;1007036I love the 'modern people go back in time and build empires' genera. 1632 Eric flint. Against the tide of years SM stirling (haven't read any of the change I can never find the dirst one). I want to read a book about these sky cast time lost Californians.
Indeed, great situation for conflicts to evolve.
Quote from: Headless;1007036I love the 'modern people go back in time and build empires' genera. 1632 Eric flint. Against the tide of years SM stirling (haven't read any of the change I can never find the dirst one). I want to read a book about these sky cast time lost Californians.
Thanks, Headless! :D
Quote from: Telarus;1007054I was seriously impressed that a self-sacrifice like that emerged out of the gameplay... it was Epic. :D
Sometimes games can have these amazing moments that were all unlooked for, but make perfect sense when you look back. :D
QuoteIndeed, great situation for conflicts to evolve.
That's what I'm hoping! :D