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I hate Clerics - What OSR/Retros do without them?

Started by Kaiu Keiichi, February 21, 2013, 12:44:07 PM

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P&P

No, I'm certainly not thinking of replacing the cleric in the OSRIC Core Rules.  The idea here is to produce a book of supplementary, optional rules that aims to address common gripes and problems with the system, and also, add things that are cool.

Specifically, there's a monk-like class and a bard-like class.  The witch is supposed to be able to replace the cleric, but also, co-exist with clerics (depending on what the GM is trying to achieve).  Demihuman level limits get addressed by including human subraces that can multiclass (so you can simply remove all level limits from the game completely without gimping humans in any way).

There are also a whole bunch of NPC classes, and...

... actually it's probably easier if I just post an extract.

Spoiler
NEW PLAYER CHARACTER RACES

Northman: A hearty and strong barbarian race from the frozen North, representing various literary archetypes such as Howard's Cimmerians or Leiber's Snow Clans.  If the optional height and weight tables are used, increase their height by two inches and their weight by ten pounds.  They receive a bonus of +1 to their initially-rolled strength score.

Northmen are experts with the axe, sword and spear, and receive a bonus of +1 "to hit" with these weapons in hand to hand combat.

In youth, northmen are taught to paint their faces and bodies with semi-magical patterns of woad that protect them.  While wearing the paint, a Northman receives a bonus of +2 to saving throws against aimed magic items, petrifaction/polymorph, poison or paralysis, and spells.

A PC Northman may be an assassin, barbarian, cleric, druid, fighter, ranger, thief, troubadour or witch.  He or she may also multi-class as a barbarian/thief, cleric/fighter, cleric/ranger, fighter/assassin, fighter/thief, or fighter/witch.  Level limits are as follows: assassin, 10th level; barbarian, no limit; cleric, 4th level; druid, 7th level; fighter, no limit; ranger, 11th level; thief, no limit; troubadour, 6th level; witch, 5th level.

Northmen speak their native tongue, Common, and their alignment language.  They may learn up to 2 additional languages.

Southman:  An educated and civilised race from the south, regarded by Northmen as effete and decadent.   They represent literary archetypes such as Howard's Stygians or Lewis' Calormenes.  They receive a bonus of +1 to their initially-rolled intelligence score.

Southmen are adept priests and, particularly, mages.  A southman mage or illusionist character receives a bonus of +5% to their chance to understand a previously unknown spell, and will begin with one additional spell known (over and above the four known to characters from other backgrounds).  The southman may choose this spell.

A PC Southman may be an assassin, cleric, fighter, illusionist, magic user, thief, troubadour or witch.  He or she may also multi-class as a cleric/assassin, cleric/fighter, cleric/thief, cleric/fighter/magic user, fighter/illusionist, fighter/magic user, fighter/thief, fighter/witch, fighter/magic user/thief, magic user/thief, thief/witch, or witch/assassin.  Level limits are as follows:  assassin, 8th level; cleric, 7th level; fighter, 6th level; illusionist, 6th level; magic user, no limit; thief, no limit; troubadour, 7th level; witch, 6th level.

Southmen speak their own language, Common, their alignment tongue, and as many languages as their intelligence score permits.

Amazon: An olive-skinned, dark-haired race renowned for their female warriors. Amazons receive a bonus of +1 to their initially-rolled dexterity and constitution scores. Amazons make attacks with a pulled bow, spear or javelin at +1 "to hit".

A PC Amazon may be an assassin, barbarian, cleric, druid, fighter, ranger, thief, troubadour or witch. He or she may also multi-class as a barbarian/thief, cleric/assassin, cleric/fighter, cleric/ranger, cleric/thief, fighter/thief, fighter/troubadour, fighter/witch, thief/troubadour, thief/witch, or witch/assassin. Level limits are as follows: assassin, 7th level; barbarian, no limit; cleric, 6th level; druid, 6th level; fighter, no limit; thief, no limit; troubadour, 6th level; witch, 9th level.

Amazons speak their own language, Common, their alignment tongue, and up to three additional languages depending on their intelligence score.

Atlantean: A race originating from a remote island or continent, which in some milieux will have sunk beneath the waves (or be fated to do so in future). Atlanteans are a long-lived race representing literary archetypes such as Howard's Atlanteans or Tolkein's Dúnedain and Númenóreans. If the optional height and weight rules are in play, increase their height by four inches and their weight by ten pounds. They receive a bonus of +1 to their initially-generated wisdom and charisma scores.

A PC Atlantean may be a cleric, fighter, illusionist, kung fu monk, magic user, paladin, ranger, thief, troubadour or witch. He or she may also multiclass as a cleric/fighter, cleric/magic user, fighter/illusionist, fighter/magic user, fighter/troubadour, fighter/witch, magic user/thief, thief/witch or troubadour/thief. Level limits are as follows:- cleric, 9th level; fighter, 7th level; illusionist, 7th level; magic user, 7th level; paladin, 6th level; ranger, unlimited; thief, unlimited; troubadour, 7th level; witch, 6th level.

Pict: Picts in OSRIC derive from Howard's Picts, or Tolkien's Woses. They are small, swarthy people of primitive culture. If the optional height and weight rules are in play, decrease their height by three inches and their weight by ten pounds. They receive a bonus of +1 to their initially-generated constitution scores.

All Picts have the innate ability to Hide in Shadows and Move Quietly. If the Pict is a thief or assassin, then he or she receives a bonus of +15% to these skills. If not, he or she has a 25% ability in each skill, provided he or she is not wearing metal armour. Picts can also track as a ranger does. If the Pict is a ranger, then he or she receives a bonus of +5% to tracking ability. If not, he or she can track in outdoor settings only, with base a 25% chance of success.

A PC Pict may be an assassin barbarian, druid, fighter, ranger, thief, or witch. The Pict may multiclass as a barbarian/thief, fighter/assassin, fighter/thief, fighter/witch, ranger/thief, ranger/witch or thief/witch. Level limits are as follows:- assassin, 6th level; barbarian, no limit; druid, 5th level; fighter, 6th level; ranger, 5th level; thief, no limit; witch, 7th level.

Picts speak their own tongue, their alignment tongue, and player character Picts can speak Common (although many NPC Picts do not). They can also communicate via trail-signs and smoke signals. Picts may learn up to three additional languages if their intelligence permits.

.... (and so on, and on, and on for another 180,000 words so far)


Plan is to release it as a free .pdf or purchasable hardback, in due course.

Anyway, the witch/inquisitor thing isn't part of a setting.  It's a toolkit to help you build your own setting.  :)
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Akrasia

Quote from: P&P;634117Ooh, some interest!  I wasn't necessarily expecting that... but since there is interest, could I persuade either or both of you to playtest these classes for me?  Or even just read them over and give me your reactions?

Unfortunately I'm not playing/running 1e/OSRIC right now, so I can't playtest the classes.  But I would be happy to read them over.
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The Ent

Hey P&P, that looks very good! :)
I really like those alternative races, seem like a good alternative to the Tolkienesque races (while it also looks like they can co-exist with them if wanted to). Best S&S OSR thinking I've seen in a while! Cudos! :)

Baron

I'd be willing to take a look at the two classes. I might be able to work them into my current campaign.

P&P

Quote from: Akrasia;634155Unfortunately I'm not playing/running 1e/OSRIC right now, so I can't playtest the classes.  But I would be happy to read them over.

Quote from: Baron;634186I'd be willing to take a look at the two classes. I might be able to work them into my current campaign.

Very kind of you.  :)

http://www.mediafire.com/view/?31kgl9k3vda592s

Please excuse the semi-finished spell list.  There should be enough spells to playtest the class up to medium level at least.
OSRIC--Ten years old, and still no kickstarter!
Monsters of Myth

Kuroth

#65
Quote from: P&P;634142Anyway, the witch/inquisitor thing isn't part of a setting.  It's a toolkit to help you build your own setting.  :)

As it should be.  I have been talking about modules and pre-made adventures of late, but this is the heart of the game's worlds.  They are the ones we make. It's great to see that you are coming up with great new elements for folks to incorporate into Osric, which are always easy to bring over to AD&D, even class details like this, though that is from someone that is used to much more elaborate conversions.  So, an Unearthed Arcana of Osric!  Nice.  I really like the heritage based predominantly human class options that you provide in your preview.  Edit: I suppose you do list them as race options, rather than class options.  I might consider switching them to class options, using the usual human race description as the general race. So, one will describe a human fighter from Amazonia, rather than the human race Amazon.  In effect, I favor developing these as new sub-classes or, using the later edition's terminology, class builds.
Any comment I add to forum is from complete boredom.

Kaiu Keiichi

Quote from: Kuroth;634123Cool stuff for Osric?  I didn't expect that in this thread!  It looked all..the usual from the hating title and all.  

You are thinking of replacing the cleric with the witch?  The witch class goes way back, for sure.  Witch and Inquisitor npc, are you going to insert them into a special campaign that you are think of releasing?

That's one of the reasons why I like Crypts & Things.  I always saw Clerics as unnecessary cruft.
Rules and design matter
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Phillip

Don't like 'em?

Don't use 'em.

Done and done.

WTF, you need somebody to write a book telling you it's okay? Seriously?
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Joey2k

Quote from: Phillip;634601Don't like 'em?

Don't use 'em.

Done and done.

WTF, you need somebody to write a book telling you it's okay? Seriously?

Very helpful :rolleyes:
I'm/a/dude

Kuroth

Quote from: Phillip;634601Don't like 'em?

Don't use 'em.

Done and done.

WTF, you need somebody to write a book telling you it's okay? Seriously?

? This is therpgsite. Everyone here has messed around with the games they like in all kinds of ways.  Showing support and/or interest in another's ideas or approaches doesn't translate to a need for those ideas or approaches.
Any comment I add to forum is from complete boredom.

RPGPundit

In some ways, in AoI the Virakshatriya (the closer equivalent to a paladin) is more similar to the D&D "knightly order" cleric concept than the Priest is. In our playtest, the guy playing the priest had to quit the group after only a couple of sessions, but it really didn't affect play in a serious fashion.

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Malygris

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;630539I find that I think Clerics stink.  I don't like em...Clerics have always represented a weird religious fighter-magic user to me, as opposed to robed priests with perhaps weird magic powers.

Why not rename and your clerics as lesser paladins, or fighter monks, and envision them more like paladins. Wouldn't this save you all the trouble of getting rid of the advantages that class brings to D&D style games?

flyingcircus

Dragon Warriors has no Clerics, neither does Dragon Age.
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The Butcher

With the release of the ACKS Players' Companion, if I wasn't so attached to the mace-and-shield D&D Cleric I'd do away with it and use only the Paladin for the militant crusaders, and the Priest (i.e. the Priestess class minus the gender restriction) for contemplative miracle-workers.

But as my personal hierarchy of D&D tropes stands, I'd do away with the Paladin before I touched the Cleric.

flyingcircus

#74
Quote from: The Butcher;643665With the release of the ACKS Players' Companion, if I wasn't so attached to the mace-and-shield D&D Cleric I'd do away with it and use only the Paladin for the militant crusaders, and the Priest (i.e. the Priestess class minus the gender restriction) for contemplative miracle-workers.

But as my personal hierarchy of D&D tropes stands, I'd do away with the Paladin before I touched the Cleric.

Personally my group loves Clerics more than the Paladins, Paladins are tanky but the Cleric is great in a party jam for healing and turning the undead, something the Paladin is a little weaker at overall.  Anymore they tend to take the fighters and rangers over the paladin and someone then takes the cleric a magic-user and thief to round out the group.

BTW; whats with ACKS, level 14 max, the combat system is totally different than any other OSR making the AC system incompatable to any other OSR to use, why in the hell do that?  I would have picked it up if not for that.
Current Games I Am GMing:  HarnMaster (HarnWorld)
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RPGNet the place Fascists hangout and live.
"The multitude of books is making us ignorant" - Voltaire.
"Love truth, pardon error" - Voltaire.
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" - Voltaire.