There have been a couple of threads about this RPG. The general consensus has been that ShadowDark is an OK game, but nothing special. It might have even been fun and trendy to hate on the game because the author seemed to pay the right YouTube people to talk about her game to boost the hype for ShadowDark past what it deserves.
Well, now I have the full game and can see for myself.
I have to say that assessment of the full game is right on. It is good, but not great. It is better than I expected at least. But, that doesn't mean we can't talk about it in detail again.
The good:
1. Easy as hell to read. A lot of the game is laid out so everything fits on the one or both pages you are looking at. It is rare for a topic to spill over to another page.
2. All the important bits and tables are repeated in the very first couple of pages. They're not at the back. They're at the front of the book.
3. Fixes for some typical D&D issues. High constitution doesn't add to EVERY level hit points, just 1st level. Likewise, high strength only helps hit rolls, not damage rolls. So, higher level characters are not astronomically better than 1st levels.
4. Magic is a skill test. You can re-use spells until you fail a roll, then that spell is off limits until you reset after a long rest. As somebody who dislikes Vancian magic, this is a selling point by itself.
5. Simplified inventory system. You carry 10 items, and gear all has a size number
6. Weapon and Armor traits from 5E. It makes the different weapons have uses, and I am also like this a lot.
7. Leveling up has a table you roll on. Nothing crazy, but this prevents min-maxing builds, and that every character is identical to another character.
The Bad.
1. Only four classes in the core rulebook. I am not happy about that at all. I want to play a Paladin, Samurai, Knight, or an Archer, not a generic Fighter.
2. No world. I know, most people like making their own, especially in fantasy. However, I like having a default setting anyways.
3. 1 hour long real time tracking of torches. Yes, I think this is silly. I won't be using that rule if I play ShadowDark.
4. It costs the price of a full game in a world where you can download Swords and Wizardry, Basic Fantasy, and Old Swords Reign for free, and print a book for $5.
The closest game I can compare this to is Old Swords Reign. Both game are BX games with 5E elements. ShadowDark is the easier game to explain and play, but I would still probably want to play Olde Swords Reign over it because of how you can customize your classes in Olde Swords Reign.
So, buy it if you want to, but it isn't anything amazing.
You can like, permanently lose spells, and even an easy spell is 5% likely to create some wacky problem. You listed this under "good", but I got to that part and was like "I'll never run or play this, got it".
Also like, while there's a bunch of things I really don't like about Shadowdark, I don't view them as being actual problems. They are 1000% not for me, but there's plenty who want those, so great.
I do have a small meta-problem with the way Shadowdark gets promoted by people who recommend it "for anyone interested in OSR' or pretend that it's an entry OSR game, or a standard example of the genre, or whatever. If you watch totally unrelated 5e products by the 5th Edition E-Celeb Crew, they will either never bring up OSR at all, or bring it up to tell you how good Shadowdark is. I think this is because they are friends with the creator or something, and I'm sure they had a good time reading a well put together book that knows what kind of game it wants to be. That's the thing I don't like about it- someone basically showing up to shill it. Sometimes that's actual fans and players though, and I don't want to paint them with a harsh brush. But man, sometimes with that game, I just don't know.
Thirty bucks for a .pdf....LOL!
https://www.thearcanelibrary.com/products/shadowdark-rpg-pdf
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on February 07, 2024, 04:22:39 PM
Thirty bucks for a .pdf....LOL!
I mean, if people are willing to pay that, great for her. It doesn't exactly seem abusive to charge that IMO.
Yes you are :P
Nah, I'm just playin'. Buy whatever you want.
For the record, I don't care who Kelsey Dionne pays off or butters up for good reviews. It just annoys me a little to see something so un-innovative be so wildly successful.
Quote from: Venka on February 07, 2024, 04:26:53 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on February 07, 2024, 04:22:39 PM
Thirty bucks for a .pdf....LOL!
I mean, if people are willing to pay that, great for her. It doesn't exactly seem abusive to charge that IMO.
OSE Basic Fantasy Rules Tome.pdf is $20.00 still a bit high but if you are a B/X fanboy like me, reasonable. It's free if you buy the print book.
Labyrinth Lord (no art).pdf... Free
With art: $9.99
Basic Fantasy Rpleplaying .pdf...Free.
Osric...free
Dungeon Core Classics...oddly they don't have a .pdf of their big rulebook. But the quickstart is free (with starter adventures) and it has the roll-to-cast-or-blow-up-the-party mechanic that so many people seem to like. Not judging.
Swords and Wizardry Revised...$4.99
Dungeons & Dragons Rules Cyclopedia .pdf .....$9.99
To me Shadowdark seems like a Wait-and-see. There isn't anything the game offers that I can't get elsewhere for cheaper.
Hell I could play the 5e basic rules for free if I felt like being called the scum of the Earth and the root of all evil because of my ethnicity.
The Shadowdark book cover looks interesting.
I think it was pitched as an introduction to the OSR, for people who were already playing 5E. It wasn't pitched as a faithful tribute to B/X or AD&D. It may seem like something primitive and different, to those used to playing via all of the 5E splat options?
Weakling!
Your penance is to roll 3d6 down the line 1000 times.
Whatever, I'd play Shadowdark if someone I knew was running it. It's a game, I'd give it a chance!
There is clearly an opportunity here; to release Feydark, the RPG.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on February 07, 2024, 04:22:39 PM
Thirty bucks for a .pdf....LOL!
https://www.thearcanelibrary.com/products/shadowdark-rpg-pdf
"The PDF version of the Shadowdark RPG core rules! Old-school gaming, modernized"
I read that as "Old-school gaming, monetized" ;D
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on February 07, 2024, 04:51:31 PM
Hell I could play the 5e basic rules for free if I felt like being called the scum of the Earth and the root of all evil because of my ethnicity.
I'm GMing the 2014 version of 5e Basic, it doesn't have any race hatred in it AFAICS. That was more a 2020+ thing really.
Quote from: Jam The MF on February 07, 2024, 05:26:48 PM
The Shadowdark book cover looks interesting.
You can scroll a bunch of pages there. I see lots of good art and some cool encounter tables.
Shadowdark seems like a good game. There is nothing wrong with supporting good games.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on February 07, 2024, 04:22:39 PM
Thirty bucks for a .pdf....LOL!
https://www.thearcanelibrary.com/products/shadowdark-rpg-pdf
Greg Gillespie's new Dragonslayer game is also $30 for the pdf
Quote from: Jam The MF on February 07, 2024, 05:55:33 PM
There is clearly an opportunity here; to release Feydark, the RPG.
BrightLight RPG, a game of high fantasy and low stakes xD
Quote from: 1stLevelWizard on February 07, 2024, 06:41:05 PM
Quote from: Jam The MF on February 07, 2024, 05:55:33 PM
There is clearly an opportunity here; to release Feydark, the RPG.
BrightLight RPG, a game of high fantasy and low stakes xD
Ha, would be a good name for a Cozy RPG. Or it could take a nasty turn when all the characters go to the dentist.
Roll for cavities and don't forget to add your floss bonus!
SD is a great wee game.
Are you weak-willed? Absolutely. But that's not my problem. That's between you and your god or spouse or whomever.
As for the "game," when it was getting all that buzz last year I checked out the preview and some videos and knew it wasn't for me. At the end of the day, it's really just an amalgamation of house rules. A lot of 5e (which I despise), some B/X (which I own in both original & OSE versions), and fair amount of DCC (which I own), and a couple other things shoehorned in, with the underwhelming no darkvision and lame "real time" gimmicks thrown in.
But for whatever reasons, some people enjoy it. Their business, not mine. So if you like it, enjoy it.
And in the interest of full disclosure, despite holding out initially I pledged late for Greg Gillsepie's Dragonslayer. Totally don't need it, but I already owned all his megadungeons and will likely grab the next two, so I decided to pull the trigger with the aim of using it to run his "Dwarrowdeep" adventure, which we haven't played yet. I also really like having a whole system in one book and since I know I'll be passing on the woke revision of Labyrinth Lord, we'll see how "Dragonslayer" plays.
Quote from: Persimmon on February 07, 2024, 06:58:02 PM
Are you weak-willed? Absolutely. But that's not my problem. That's between you and your god or spouse or whomever.
As for the "game," when it was getting all that buzz last year I checked out the preview and some videos and knew it wasn't for me. At the end of the day, it's really just an amalgamation of house rules. A lot of 5e (which I despise), some B/X (which I own in both original & OSE versions), and fair amount of DCC (which I own), and a couple other things shoehorned in, with the underwhelming no darkvision and lame "real time" gimmicks thrown in.
But for whatever reasons, some people enjoy it. Their business, not mine. So if you like it, enjoy it.
And in the interest of full disclosure, despite holding out initially I pledged late for Greg Gillsepie's Dragonslayer. Totally don't need it, but I already owned all his megadungeons and will likely grab the next two, so I decided to pull the trigger with the aim of using it to run his "Dwarrowdeep" adventure, which we haven't played yet. I also really like having a whole system in one book and since I know I'll be passing on the woke revision of Labyrinth Lord, we'll see how "Dragonslayer" plays.
Your description of the various games and house rules duct tapped together to make ShadowDark is pretty spot on. It's almost exactly how I feel SD is as a game.
It's just that it was really well done.
Yup, I said it. ShadowDark is deserving of some of the hype. It's one of the better OSR games out there.
The problem is there are still plenty of OSR games that are just as good. In my case I prefer Olde Swords Reign for class customization reasons.
If I'm totally honest, I like Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool or Pocket Fantasy just as much, but those two games are not really OSR.
Bottom line: ShadowDark is good and worth getting if you are on the fence.
If the book is something you intend to run games with or you feel there's something in it for you to make your games better, then it was a good purchase. I feel the price tag on Shadowdark is a little stiff but I've spent more on products I like less.
If you would like to see someone else spending money on games they shouldn't have, go look at my cyberpunk games reviews and know that I paid for each of them. Yeah... and I still have more of them to cover too.
I had considered getting this game at one point but I got Crown & Skull instead.
Quote from: RebelSky on February 07, 2024, 08:18:20 PM
I had considered getting this game at one point but I got Crown & Skull instead.
Ah, I forgot about that one. I may have to give it a look. Right now I am on a bit of a Japanese RPG kick, so Crown and Skull is on the back burner.
Greetings!
I have the Shadowdark game. It is fantastic! Brutal, simple, fast, while also being easy to embrace by 5E players. Definitely an awesome, OSR game.
What's up with you people crying about $30 bucks for a PDF, or $60 bucks for a game book?
No offense intended, my friends, but geesus. I regularly spend $30 dollars to have a fucking *MID* Pizza by Pizza Hut delivered to my house.
Yeah, a fucking pizza. Nothing special, and it is fucking gone in less than 20 minutes.
Fucking grabbing a sandwich at Jersey Mike's is $21 dollars for a sandwich and soda.
Just for some perspective. Honestly, dropping $30 dollars for a PDF is just fine. $60 dollars for a game book? Yeah, that's fine too.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I did the kickstarter for this one. I've read the book, and it's competently done. I have not played it yet, but it seems likely that it's a reasonably playable game. If someone in my circle runs it, I'll play it. But it's not something I would run. The OSR is saturated with high-quality fantasy rpgs, and I prefer the ones I am most familiar with (OSE, S&W, Blueholme, Black Hack).
The central conceit of Shadowdark doesn't make a lot of sense to me: the emphasis on limited light. In an implied setting with as much magic as the Shadowdark rules have, this could be and would be remedied with a relatively low-level spell (something like continual light) or magic items. Shadowdark lacks that particular remedy and advises GMs not to allow this kind of magic in the game precisely because it would undermine the central conceit. It's artificial, arbitrary.
A creative GM could work with this by creating a setting where this makes some kind of sense (a demi-plane of shadow, for example, or a setting in which the sun is dimmed and shadows deepened for some reason, maybe a divine war in the past in which the sun god was struck down and lies in torpor). But Shadowdark doesn't bother to explain. It just is, which is weird because the game is so inexplicable without an in-game justification for the limited light issue, particularly as characters advance and gain access to greater magic and magical items.
My guess is that Shadowdark will not have a lot of staying power. Just a guess though.
Quote from: SHARK on February 07, 2024, 10:19:19 PM
Greetings!
I have the Shadowdark game. It is fantastic! Brutal, simple, fast, while also being easy to embrace by 5E players. Definitely an awesome, OSR game.
What's up with you people crying about $30 bucks for a PDF, or $60 bucks for a game book?
No offense intended, my friends, but geesus. I regularly spend $30 dollars to have a fucking *MID* Pizza by Pizza Hut delivered to my house.
Yeah, a fucking pizza. Nothing special, and it is fucking gone in less than 20 minutes.
Fucking grabbing a sandwich at Jersey Mike's is $21 dollars for a sandwich and soda.
Just for some perspective. Honestly, dropping $30 dollars for a PDF is just fine. $60 dollars for a game book? Yeah, that's fine too.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I don't complain about the price of a game book too much, because there are options out there in many different price ranges. One of my favorites is $5.00 USD, in softcover. $50 is about the max I'll pay, for a single volume in hardcover. More, for a 2 or 3 volume set. I have purchased a lot of good hardcover RPG books, for $35 to $50 each.
Quote from: dungeonmonkey on February 07, 2024, 10:28:00 PM
I did the kickstarter for this one. I've read the book, and it's competently done. I have not played it yet, but it seems likely that it's a reasonably playable game. If someone in my circle runs it, I'll play it. But it's not something I would run. The OSR is saturated with high-quality fantasy rpgs, and I prefer the ones I am most familiar with (OSE, S&W, Blueholme, Black Hack).
The central conceit of Shadowdark doesn't make a lot of sense to me: the emphasis on limited light. In an implied setting with as much magic as the Shadowdark rules have, this could be and would be remedied with a relatively low-level spell (something like continual light) or magic items. Shadowdark lacks that particular remedy and advises GMs not to allow this kind of magic in the game precisely because it would undermine the central conceit. It's artificial, arbitrary.
A creative GM could work with this by creating a setting where this makes some kind of sense (a demi-plane of shadow, for example, or a setting in which the sun is dimmed and shadows deepened for some reason, maybe a divine war in the past in which the sun god was struck down and lies in torpor). But Shadowdark doesn't bother to explain. It just is, which is weird because the game is so inexplicable without an in-game justification for the limited light issue, particularly as characters advance and gain access to greater magic and magical items.
My guess is that Shadowdark will not have a lot of staying power. Just a guess though.
That sounds a lot like one of the flaws I noted about the game. Lore. Or rather the lack of it.
Having a central plot point revolving around light as a perishable resource does sound interesting as a world building element.
Right now ShadowDark is just another OSR, with some concession that it's better than average.
Glowing fungi, lichens, or fire beetles? Oops, I just broke the whole game. Sorry, fans....
Quote from: Persimmon on February 08, 2024, 08:28:34 AM
Glowing fungi, lichens, or fire beetles? Oops, I just broke the whole game. Sorry, fans....
If the game session last 4 hours, you bring 5 torches. Thank Daniel from Bandits Keep for that one.
You could have saved yourself some money by just playing the original.
https://classicreload.com/zork-i.html (https://classicreload.com/zork-i.html)
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on February 07, 2024, 04:51:31 PM
Quote from: Venka on February 07, 2024, 04:26:53 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on February 07, 2024, 04:22:39 PM
Thirty bucks for a .pdf....LOL!
I mean, if people are willing to pay that, great for her. It doesn't exactly seem abusive to charge that IMO.
OSE Basic Fantasy Rules Tome.pdf is $20.00 still a bit high but if you are a B/X fanboy like me, reasonable. It's free if you buy the print book.
Labyrinth Lord (no art).pdf... Free
With art: $9.99
Basic Fantasy Rpleplaying .pdf...Free.
Osric...free
Dungeon Core Classics...oddly they don't have a .pdf of their big rulebook. But the quickstart is free (with starter adventures) and it has the roll-to-cast-or-blow-up-the-party mechanic that so many people seem to like. Not judging.
Swords and Wizardry Revised...$4.99
Dungeons & Dragons Rules Cyclopedia .pdf .....$9.99
To me Shadowdark seems like a Wait-and-see. There isn't anything the game offers that I can't get elsewhere for cheaper.
Hell I could play the 5e basic rules for free if I felt like being called the scum of the Earth and the root of all evil because of my ethnicity.
Shadowdark Quickstart - Free
https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/413713/Shadowdark-RPG-Quickstart-Set
Quote
Glowing fungi, lichens, or fire beetles? Oops, I just broke the whole game. Sorry, fans....
Can't take the plants with you or they die in an hour like a torch
Fire beetles are monsters they aren't friendly and will eat your face
Monsters see in the dark, humanoids do not.
By all means Creative Use of Game Mechanics which can be rolled back into what the purpose of a 'torch' does.
Veins of the Earth does dungeon crawling far better in description that Shadowdark, however Shadowdark has a very tight ruleset that strips away lots of the cruft and makes for a very fun dungeon diving experience. a sesson or 12 and you can start the campaign over again with new PC's.
Where SD fails completely is long term game play for overland and city based adventures. That requires a DM to make all their own rules for that type of outdoors and urban gameplay. Playing for YEARS requires multiple sets of PC's as you'll level up quickly with loot as you spend it and go down to get more.
I'll be running two Shadowdark games at VengerConIII this year and rolling out my own set of homebrew rules which expand heavily on the foundation of SD as well as cleaning up lots of the fiddly bits that are not consistent (monsters and spells I'm looking at you) as they vary wildly in standardization.
It's a fun game and we have switched to running SD in our off session
Quote from: Persimmon on February 07, 2024, 06:58:02 PM
Are you weak-willed? Absolutely. But that's not my problem. That's between you and your god or spouse or whomever.
As for the "game," when it was getting all that buzz last year I checked out the preview and some videos and knew it wasn't for me. At the end of the day, it's really just an amalgamation of house rules. A lot of 5e (which I despise), some B/X (which I own in both original & OSE versions), and fair amount of DCC (which I own), and a couple other things shoehorned in, with the underwhelming no darkvision and lame "real time" gimmicks thrown in.
But for whatever reasons, some people enjoy it. Their business, not mine. So if you like it, enjoy it.
And in the interest of full disclosure, despite holding out initially I pledged late for Greg Gillsepie's Dragonslayer. Totally don't need it, but I already owned all his megadungeons and will likely grab the next two, so I decided to pull the trigger with the aim of using it to run his "Dwarrowdeep" adventure, which we haven't played yet. I also really like having a whole system in one book and since I know I'll be passing on the woke revision of Labyrinth Lord, we'll see how "Dragonslayer" plays.
I'd second this. As corny as it is to say, if you like playing it go ahead and enjoy. I mean, I'm not the one sitting at your table playing RPGs with you. Hell I don't even really have an opinion on ShadowDark; heard the name and that's it. I know I'll ragged on for it, but I simply don't have interest in other fantasy RPGs myself just because I play D&D in its many forms and I no desire for another fantasy RPG. I'd rather spend time finding sci-fi, horror, etc.
I love the magic system (skill checks for spells, mishaps where you can forget the spell.)
Quote from: Aglondir on February 08, 2024, 08:38:41 PM
I love the magic system (skill checks for spells, mishaps where you can forget the spell.)
Yeah, you mean the one cribbed from DCC? We already know that one...
Quote from: Persimmon on February 08, 2024, 09:17:45 PM
Quote from: Aglondir on February 08, 2024, 08:38:41 PM
I love the magic system (skill checks for spells, mishaps where you can forget the spell.)
Yeah, you mean the one cribbed from DCC? We already know that one...
I didn't know it was from DCC. I thought it was cribbed from Gurps (LOL)!
Casting Spells (Characters p. 235)
Critical Spell Failure Table (Characters, p. 236)
Quote from: Aglondir on February 08, 2024, 09:33:48 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on February 08, 2024, 09:17:45 PM
Quote from: Aglondir on February 08, 2024, 08:38:41 PM
I love the magic system (skill checks for spells, mishaps where you can forget the spell.)
Yeah, you mean the one cribbed from DCC? We already know that one...
I didn't know it was from DCC. I thought it was cribbed from Gurps (LOL)!
Casting Spells (Characters p. 235)
Critical Spell Failure Table (Characters, p. 236)
In reading the charts in the preview, I definitely thought it was based on DCC, but I've never seen GURPS, so maybe DCC was cribbed from that?
Quote from: Persimmon on February 08, 2024, 09:41:21 PM
Quote from: Aglondir on February 08, 2024, 09:33:48 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on February 08, 2024, 09:17:45 PM
Quote from: Aglondir on February 08, 2024, 08:38:41 PM
I love the magic system (skill checks for spells, mishaps where you can forget the spell.)
Yeah, you mean the one cribbed from DCC? We already know that one...
I didn't know it was from DCC. I thought it was cribbed from Gurps (LOL)!
Casting Spells (Characters p. 235)
Critical Spell Failure Table (Characters, p. 236)
In reading the charts in the preview, I definitely thought it was based on DCC, but I've never seen GURPS, so maybe DCC was cribbed from that?
Maybe it's a case of "great minds think alike!"
The biggest flaw is the lack of classes.
I know there are some zines that add more classes like witch, witch knights of St I've, and the Sea Raider (Viking).
Are there any more classes, like Paladin or such?
Nearly all the praise I've seen for Shadowdark seems to boil down to "it's a good game. And a girl made it! Isn't that great? Isn't she a special girl!"
If I was a designer I'd feel highly demeaned by the OSR clique who I thought were shilling my game due to my talent. Can't the shills just admit they shilled an okay but highly derivitive OSR game because they were infatuated with it's designer instead of the game itself?
Quote from: King Tyranno on February 08, 2024, 11:05:35 PM
Nearly all the praise I've seen for Shadowdark seems to boil down to "it's a good game. And a girl made it! Isn't that great? Isn't she a special girl!"
If I was a designer I'd feel highly demeaned by the OSR clique who I thought were shilling my game due to my talent. Can't the shills just admit they shilled an okay but highly derivitive OSR game because they were infatuated with it's designer instead of the game itself?
I have no particular feelings about the designer myself, but that does seem to be part of it. The same game designed by some balding white guy living in his mom's basement would likely get far less traction. Then again, probably hundreds of said guys have done just that, since it's basically a bunch of house rules. But marketing matters.
Quote from: King Tyranno on February 08, 2024, 11:05:35 PM
Nearly all the praise I've seen for Shadowdark seems to boil down to "it's a good game. And a girl made it! Isn't that great? Isn't she a special girl!"
If I was a designer I'd feel highly demeaned by the OSR clique who I thought were shilling my game due to my talent. Can't the shills just admit they shilled an okay but highly derivitive OSR game because they were infatuated with it's designer instead of the game itself?
The female designer had gotten exposure on multiple product booster channels, over the last couple of years. Just hanging out and talking about rpgs. Then she pitched Shadowdark, after she already had some cool points and name recognition built up. She did her networking, before she pitched Shadowdark. She had the right friends on speed dial.
Quote from: Jam The MF on February 09, 2024, 12:49:26 AM
Quote from: King Tyranno on February 08, 2024, 11:05:35 PM
Nearly all the praise I've seen for Shadowdark seems to boil down to "it's a good game. And a girl made it! Isn't that great? Isn't she a special girl!"
If I was a designer I'd feel highly demeaned by the OSR clique who I thought were shilling my game due to my talent. Can't the shills just admit they shilled an okay but highly derivitive OSR game because they were infatuated with it's designer instead of the game itself?
The female designer had gotten exposure on multiple product booster channels, over the last couple of years. Just hanging out and talking about rpgs. Then she pitched Shadowdark, after she already had some cool points and name recognition built up. She did her networking, before she pitched Shadowdark. She had the right friends on speed dial.
Her wife/partner is an actual marketing professional and seems to have done a great job there. The game seems to be an above average OSR semi-retro-clone (I have paid money for much less), and my vague impression is the author seems likable and able to market to both mildly Woke and mildly anti-Woke*. I think being female does help her. It's not 'fair' that it made so much more money than other above average semi-retro-clones, but not surprising.
*To the Woke she's an LGBTQI+, to the anti-Woke she's a Judges Guild afficionado & OSR enthusiast.
The author being lesbian is a talking point if it mattered, but I have the full game....and it doesn't matter here. Its not some sort of disguised propaganda. I didn't even want to bring it up because I know this forum is not kind to that sort of thing. In this instance, I wouldn't worry about activism. This game doesn't even have a short blurb in the beginning about any sort of "satanic panic" disclaimer, or violence, or drug use, ect. Palladium Books still put a disclaimer for Violence and Supernatural elements.
No, on the hidden activism angle, ShadowDark is NOT a problem.
As for marketing, that was well done. But, who thinks marketing a game correctly is a problem?
As OSE has also demonstrated, marketing & presentation are huge. Simply reorganizing old content and jazzing it up with an appealing aesthetic can move serious product, which is part of the deal here as well, though again I'm less impressed with the design and organization of Shadowdark than most.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 09, 2024, 07:15:12 AM
The author being lesbian is a talking point if it mattered, but I have the full game....and it doesn't matter here. Its not some sort of disguised propaganda. I didn't even want to bring it up because I know this forum is not kind to that sort of thing. In this instance, I wouldn't worry about activism. This game doesn't even have a short blurb in the beginning about any sort of "satanic panic" disclaimer, or violence, or drug use, ect. Palladium Books still put a disclaimer for Violence and Supernatural elements.
No, on the hidden activism angle, ShadowDark is NOT a problem.
As for marketing, that was well done. But, who thinks marketing a game correctly is a a problem?
I don't care and was unaware that the author was a member of BLT Sandwich Club. My issue isn't political. It's that shills need to realize that "She's a great games designer for a woman." Is not the high praise they think it is. It's not political. It's demeaning to her and demeaning to people who just want a quality game. Shadowdark is okay, not great. It would not have recieved the attention it did if the game designer did not have undisclosed relationships with various content creators or was a neckbeard games designer like most of them are.
Quote from: King Tyranno on February 08, 2024, 11:05:35 PM
Nearly all the praise I've seen for Shadowdark seems to boil down to "it's a good game. And a girl made it! Isn't that great? Isn't she a special girl!"
If I was a designer I'd feel highly demeaned by the OSR clique who I thought were shilling my game due to my talent. Can't the shills just admit they shilled an okay but highly derivitive OSR game because they were infatuated with it's designer instead of the game itself?
Read the main Shadowdark post on here and you'll see that more folks are excited about the slimmed down 5e experience, the compact writing, and the evocative art over "EL OH EL GURL WROTE IT OMG!" The crowd that only looks at her for her sex and who she shares a bed with are the minority. People bring that up as a counterpoint to certain discussions and then it's left alone. Her work , Shadowdark, speaks for itself.
Kelsey had a very successful writing career in 5e modules before shadowdark and her pesonality, charisma, and friendliness goes a helluva long way than grognards screeching over 1E vs. OSE and who is better for marketing.
Also, the classes were left as basic as possible for other authors to come behind and make more. Kelsey did not want to bloat out the main book with classes and races and just kept it simple.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 09, 2024, 07:15:12 AM
As for marketing, that was well done. But, who thinks marketing a game correctly is a a problem?
'
Read the main shadowdark thread and you'll see dozens of posters on here who think that her successful marketing campaign was the second coming of satan and an evil conspiracy by the v-tubing RPG cabal.
Weak-willed? I don't know anything about this other than you have disposable income.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on February 09, 2024, 09:35:33 AM
Also, the classes were left as basic as possible for other authors to come behind and make more. Kelsey did not want to bloat out the main book with classes and races and just kept it simple.
That makes me sad. I like games with a lot of good classes in the core book.
Case in point, my brother and his group are playing Basic Fantasy, but just the core book only. The GM doesn't like to keep referencing supplement after supplement books, so core book content only.
I want to play a Paladin. I can't in their game.
Some people are like that. They view supplement books as lesser products. After all, if it so great, why wasn't it in the core book?
Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 08, 2024, 10:44:57 PM
The biggest flaw is the lack of classes.
I know there are some zines that add more classes like witch, witch knights of St I've, and the Sea Raider (Viking).
Are there any more classes, like Paladin or such?
The Zines all have new classes and setting info and an adventure.
Zine #1 is haunted forest themed and adds Witches, Warlocks and Cursed Knights
Zine #2 is desert themed and adds Desert Rider, Pit Fighter and Ras-Godai Assassins
Zine #3 is Viking themed and adds Seer and Sea Wolf
There was a Ranger and a Bard class distributed digitally to backers. Don't know if they were made publicly available in some way. These were designed as part of a stretch goal reached during the funding.
Quote from: rgalex on February 09, 2024, 11:44:14 AM
Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 08, 2024, 10:44:57 PM
The biggest flaw is the lack of classes.
I know there are some zines that add more classes like witch, witch knights of St I've, and the Sea Raider (Viking).
Are there any more classes, like Paladin or such?
The Zines all have new classes and setting info and an adventure.
Zine #1 is haunted forest themed and adds Witches, Warlocks and Cursed Knights
Zine #2 is desert themed and adds Desert Rider, Pit Fighter and Ras-Godai Assassins
Zine #3 is Viking themed and adds Seer and Sea Wolf
There was a Ranger and a Bard class distributed digitally to backers. Don't know if they were made publicly available in some way. These were designed as part of a stretch goal reached during the funding.
Zines aren't a feature IMO because it just means you don't have everything in one place. OSE does the same thing, which is annoying there as well, though I understand the rationale.
But again, everyone has their preferences. Just like her background in 5e is absolutely a negative for me. But I'm not the target audience.
Their 'Zines seem to be legit. They sell them right on their website.
https://www.thearcanelibrary.com/collections/cursed-scroll-zine (https://www.thearcanelibrary.com/collections/cursed-scroll-zine)
Maybe I'll pay that extra money for additional content that could have been in the main book, but wasn't.
Wait. Selling stuff. Extras. Additional content sold separately. Huh. Almost as if they're trying to make more money.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 09, 2024, 01:00:01 PM
Their 'Zines seem to be legit. They sell them right on their website.
https://www.thearcanelibrary.com/collections/cursed-scroll-zine (https://www.thearcanelibrary.com/collections/cursed-scroll-zine)
Maybe I'll pay that extra money for additional content that could have been in the main book, but wasn't.
Wait. Selling stuff. Extras. Additional content sold separately. Huh. Almost as if they're trying to make more money.
The zines are awesome and worth it. They've also incorporated an online Character Generator here:
https://shadowdarklings.net/
God forbid a company to make any money in a Capitalist society. ::)
Christ the amount of handwringing and bitching over this product is off the charts.
Some people consider having a small number of core classes in an RPG book, a feature; and not a problem. Let the DM decide, if he wants to allow book #2; at his table.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on February 09, 2024, 04:41:45 PM
Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 09, 2024, 01:00:01 PM
Their 'Zines seem to be legit. They sell them right on their website.
https://www.thearcanelibrary.com/collections/cursed-scroll-zine (https://www.thearcanelibrary.com/collections/cursed-scroll-zine)
Maybe I'll pay that extra money for additional content that could have been in the main book, but wasn't.
Wait. Selling stuff. Extras. Additional content sold separately. Huh. Almost as if they're trying to make more money.
The zines are awesome and worth it. They've also incorporated an online Character Generator here:
https://shadowdarklings.net/
God forbid a company to make any money in a Capitalist society. ::)
Christ the amount of handwringing and bitching over this product is off the charts.
Its because a lot of people (myself included) think the game is overhyped. Just like any good thing, you have to bring it back to reality with some ribbing.
I have said a couple of times the game is good. I'm not going to give it the title of, "Best Game, Ever" because it is just good, not great. It has flaws.
And those zines are a bit overpriced, so I disagree with you there. I can buy complete games for less than those Zines are each sold for.
Quote from: Persimmon on February 09, 2024, 08:27:56 AM
As OSE has also demonstrated, marketing & presentation are huge. Simply reorganizing old content and jazzing it up with an appealing aesthetic can move serious product, which is part of the deal here as well, though again I'm less impressed with the design and organization of Shadowdark than most.
I really can't get into OSE. To be honest, it's the art. To me, it sucks. I'd rather go with B/X or AD&D.
Shadowdark does have cool art, and is pretty basic in its presentation. I like what I have read so far.
But I am liking Dragonslayer better. So sign me up to shill for Gillespie's game, and maybe I will consider Shadowdark at some point in the future. About the only thing Shadowdark has that I like better than Dragonslayer is rolling for spells, crit success and failure with spells, and spell mishaps.
I've never been a huge fan of fire-and-forget spells, and I like that take on it. Yep, big fan of DCC for a while as well, but their latest changes in the new printing are kinda meh. Will stick with my 8th Printing for that.
Quote from: Dropbear on February 10, 2024, 12:36:43 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on February 09, 2024, 08:27:56 AM
As OSE has also demonstrated, marketing & presentation are huge. Simply reorganizing old content and jazzing it up with an appealing aesthetic can move serious product, which is part of the deal here as well, though again I'm less impressed with the design and organization of Shadowdark than most.
I really can't get into OSE. To be honest, it's the art. To me, it sucks. I'd rather go with B/X or AD&D.
Shadowdark does have cool art, and is pretty basic in its presentation. I like what I have read so far.
But I am liking Dragonslayer better. So sign me up to shill for Gillespie's game, and maybe I will consider Shadowdark at some point in the future. About the only thing Shadowdark has that I like better than Dragonslayer is rolling for spells, crit success and failure with spells, and spell mishaps.
I've never been a huge fan of fire-and-forget spells, and I like that take on it. Yep, big fan of DCC for a while as well, but their latest changes in the new printing are kinda meh. Will stick with my 8th Printing for that.
Aesthetics are both important and very obviously a matter of personal taste. Greg Gillespie has gone the record stating that he can't stand OSE's artwork. And he hates digest-sized books. Personally, I've got mixed feelings about OSE art. Some of it's quite good and evocative, but other pieces are too whimsical and childlike for my taste. I think the Shadowdark art feels like it's trying too hard to be edgy, like a lot of Goth kids in high school. I prefer the consistency of Gillespie's products, which are, of course, designed to evoke early 80s TSR. On the other hand, I do quite like the digest-sized books, especially if I'm lugging stuff somewhere outside of my house to go play.
I also like the idea of some chances of failure, corruption, etc. with spells, but not quite to the level of DCC, since we found it can get real slow at times. One tweak I've used in Castles & Crusades is that if the spell is resisted by a foe's spell resistance or they roll a nat 20 on their save, the caster must make a Charisma check or suffer a spell failure using the MERP tables. Adds a bit of danger and flavor, but not quite as complex.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 09, 2024, 11:26:44 AM
That makes me sad. I like games with a lot of good classes in the core book.
There are more classes but they are paid DLC.
I imagine the prices list for Ale, food, bed, tackle, etc are also a DLC because it's not in the book.
For all the praise people sang over this game it's an incomplete game IMHO.
As a player I want to know how much does an Ale cost, how much for a stew or other foods, same thing for hostel and other things done in town.
As a GM I want those same things so I don't have to come up with them. Guess I'll have to make my own...
Never again, I can understand not including a bazillion races and classes in the core book, but come on! Basic downtime shit?
Also, the random generators... Dunno, this feels a litle bit railroady to me.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 11, 2024, 04:08:24 PM
I imagine the prices list for Ale, food, bed, tackle, etc are also a DLC because it's not in the book.
For all the praise people sang over this game it's an incomplete game IMHO.
As a player I want to know how much does an Ale cost, how much for a stew or other foods, same thing for hostel and other things done in town.
As a GM I want those same things so I don't have to come up with them. Guess I'll have to make my own...
Never again, I can understand not including a bazillion races and classes in the core book, but come on! Basic downtime shit?
Also, the random generators... Dunno, this feels a litle bit railroady to me.
All that these basic items are rolled into the "Carousing" section of the game book. Common Items are present and the book does a good job in saying the GM can handwave costs.
The random generators take up nearly 100+ pages of the book, this is the same as the 1E DM's guide only expanded tremendously.
We get it, you absolutely and utterly hate Shadowdark and will do everything in your power to stawman the shit out of the most pendantic and pointless nonsense.
Quote from: rgalex on February 09, 2024, 11:44:14 AM
Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 08, 2024, 10:44:57 PM
The biggest flaw is the lack of classes.
I know there are some zines that add more classes like witch, witch knights of St I've, and the Sea Raider (Viking).
Are there any more classes, like Paladin or such?
I found it odd that those 'Zines you mentioned have a preview that shows off the Witch Knight and Sea Wolf classes. I don't need to buy the 'Zine to get those. Click & Save, and now I have two free classes.
The Sea Wolf looks interesting.
Also, as a side note that's a bit funny. The Sea Wolf class now has stats for 1-handed axes. "As dagger, but 1D6 damage". The reason it's funny was there was a joke that the ShadowDark world just doesn't have hand axes.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 11, 2024, 05:08:16 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 11, 2024, 04:08:24 PM
I imagine the prices list for Ale, food, bed, tackle, etc are also a DLC because it's not in the book.
For all the praise people sang over this game it's an incomplete game IMHO.
As a player I want to know how much does an Ale cost, how much for a stew or other foods, same thing for hostel and other things done in town.
As a GM I want those same things so I don't have to come up with them. Guess I'll have to make my own...
Never again, I can understand not including a bazillion races and classes in the core book, but come on! Basic downtime shit?
Also, the random generators... Dunno, this feels a litle bit railroady to me.
All that these basic items are rolled into the "Carousing" section of the game book. Common Items are present and the book does a good job in saying the GM can handwave costs.
The random generators take up nearly 100+ pages of the book, this is the same as the 1E DM's guide only expanded tremendously.
We get it, you absolutely and utterly hate Shadowdark and will do everything in your power to stawman the shit out of the most pendantic and pointless nonsense.
Except those prices AREN'T anywhere except the random generators.
As for me "hating" anything (it's the same "argument" as you're just mad), the random generators where the GM rolls to see what happens to MY PC regardless of what I say it does?
Yes, it seems railroady.
Paid $30 US for an incomplete game, with rules I have no use for either as a player or a GM, you can like it, heck you can even suck her dick IDGAFF. Doesn't mean MY criticism (mildly as it is) isn't valid.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 11, 2024, 05:08:16 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 11, 2024, 04:08:24 PM
I imagine the prices list for Ale, food, bed, tackle, etc are also a DLC because it's not in the book.
For all the praise people sang over this game it's an incomplete game IMHO.
As a player I want to know how much does an Ale cost, how much for a stew or other foods, same thing for hostel and other things done in town.
Also, the random generators... Dunno, this feels a litle bit railroady to me.
All that these basic items are rolled into the "Carousing" section of the game book. Common Items are present and the book does a good job in saying the GM can handwave costs.
The cost of a stew is on Page 137. Goat Stew - 1d4 CP. On the same page, it indicates an Ale is 5 SP for "House Ale", which is mid-quality and comes with a free refill. There is more useful detail in the food + ale tables here than a price sheet from AD&D IMO. The drinks of different quality have effects on your character! I can't find the cost of a room but I figure it's easy enough to estimate on-the-fly in relation to the cost of food and drink options (since the inn's quality determines food/drink quality and variety). The game seems more robust than one would expect on these topics.
The carousing table only takes away control to the extent that it's trying to tell you an amusing story of how you came to acquire the benefits (XP, sometimes new friends, items). It's only possible to encounter the really wild stuff when you're doing stuff like throwing a 2-week bender (in which case, blacking out and waking up in a dangerous situation seems reasonable). The carousing table is the only one I could find that clearly takes away player agency, but you're choosing to carouse in the first place.
I'm not sure how the generators are "railroady". It's normal from the very beginning of the hobby to roll for random encounters. I don't see why it's weird to roll for random encounters in different parts of town or the wilderness. I do the same thing in my games and I will probably get some use out of these tables. I think the tables are the best thing about ShadowDark. They seem interesting and of good quality with lots of entries. Most generators I find elsewhere are too small, really gonzo, or just dull. Also the entries are tailored enough to fit without tons of rerolls - having different d100 tables for different city districts, buildings, terrain types is useful.
Quote from: Old Aegidius on March 11, 2024, 08:02:01 PM
Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 11, 2024, 05:08:16 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 11, 2024, 04:08:24 PM
I imagine the prices list for Ale, food, bed, tackle, etc are also a DLC because it's not in the book.
For all the praise people sang over this game it's an incomplete game IMHO.
As a player I want to know how much does an Ale cost, how much for a stew or other foods, same thing for hostel and other things done in town.
Also, the random generators... Dunno, this feels a litle bit railroady to me.
All that these basic items are rolled into the "Carousing" section of the game book. Common Items are present and the book does a good job in saying the GM can handwave costs.
The cost of a stew is on Page 137. Goat Stew - 1d4 CP. On the same page, it indicates an Ale is 5 SP for "House Ale", which is mid-quality and comes with a free refill. There is more useful detail in the food + ale tables here than a price sheet from AD&D IMO. The drinks of different quality have effects on your character! I can't find the cost of a room but I figure it's easy enough to estimate on-the-fly in relation to the cost of food and drink options (since the inn's quality determines food/drink quality and variety). The game seems more robust than one would expect on these topics.
The carousing table only takes away control to the extent that it's trying to tell you an amusing story of how you came to acquire the benefits (XP, sometimes new friends, items). It's only possible to encounter the really wild stuff when you're doing stuff like throwing a 2-week bender (in which case, blacking out and waking up in a dangerous situation seems reasonable). The carousing table is the only one I could find that clearly takes away player agency, but you're choosing to carouse in the first place.
I'm not sure how the generators are "railroady". It's normal from the very beginning of the hobby to roll for random encounters. I don't see why it's weird to roll for random encounters in different parts of town or the wilderness. I do the same thing in my games and I will probably get some use out of these tables. I think the tables are the best thing about ShadowDark. They seem interesting and of good quality with lots of entries. Most generators I find elsewhere are too small, really gonzo, or just dull. Also the entries are tailored enough to fit without tons of rerolls - having different d100 tables for different city districts, buildings, terrain types is useful.
No, that's not a price list, it's a random table generator that the GM rolls in, such an "amusing story": Barnacle grog. 1 cp, DC 9 Constitution check or blind 1 hour
You think I don't have the book or something?
Now, as for the carousing table:
You're locked in the stocks for 1d4
days and fined 20% of your total
wealth for setting a building on fire
You wake up deep inside the local
ruler's stronghold holding one of
their priceless family heirlooms.
Footsteps approach
Now, not all the results of THAT random table are bad, but what IF my PC gets drunk and decides to go to sleep?
No, sorry, you have to roll on the fucking table to see what your PC did AGAINST your will.
You think it's clever, fun and wish to inflict that on your players? By all means knock your self out
I'm curently a player in a "campaign" of it, I'll be reporting how much "FUN & AMUSING" it is to have your player agency striped away from you.
You have every right to like it, you don't have the right to lie that it's not stealing the player's agency.
I also got ShadowDark. My prognosis; it's thoroughly "meh".
I can't really foresee this getting much long term play at anyone's table, be it modern or OSR.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 11, 2024, 10:23:46 PM
No, that's not a price list, it's a random table generator that the GM rolls in, such an "amusing story": Barnacle grog. 1 cp, DC 9 Constitution check or blind 1 hour
It's a random generator to see what's on the menu at the inn. It doesn't have to be on a big price list next to the pickaxes to be valid items for the players to purchase. I agree the format isn't an AD&D price list which is why I contrasted it with that.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 11, 2024, 10:23:46 PM
Now, not all the results of THAT random table are bad, but what IF my PC gets drunk and decides to go to sleep?
...
I'm currently a player in a "campaign" of it, I'll be reporting how much "FUN & AMUSING" it is to have your player agency striped away from you.
Sure, and that's one outcome. My reading of the percentage loss of total wealth is to discourage gaming the carousing table's rewards by spamming low-level carousing for XP. The game revels in randomness. It's baked in from the character advancement to most of the moment-to-moment gameplay. If that's not to your taste, that's fine. I'm unsure if you'll enjoy a ShadowDark campaign based on what I'm hearing from you, but best of luck to you and the other players in finding some enjoyment in it.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 11, 2024, 10:23:46 PM
You have every right to like it, you don't have the right to lie that it's not stealing the player's agency.
Emphasis mine. I did not lie about this and was very clear that the carousing table does take agency away and justified it on the basis that players are participating in the carousing to begin with. Loss of some level of agency is fundamental to every carousing table I've seen. That includes Dragonslayer's carousing table. The outcomes are similar - you can wake up with tattoos, fines, jail time, and even burning down a building. If you don't like how central carousing is to ShadowDark and wish it were an optional rule, I get it. Carousing is an excuse to burn your cash so you always need more. Most B/X gold-for-XP systems I've seen are ultimately about inventing justifications for that. That the carousing table also results in outcomes like making new NPC riends and things like that is just a nice bonus and an easy way to tell an amusing story in brief.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 11, 2024, 04:08:24 PM
I imagine the prices list for Ale, food, bed, tackle, etc are also a DLC because it's not in the book.
...
As a player I want to know how much does an Ale cost, how much for a stew or other foods, same thing for hostel and other things done in town.
Again, emphasis mine. I don't think you're lying - mistakenly missing or forgetting the prices I cited are much more likely. It's factually incorrect though to say that the prices for ale and stew are not in the book (and it's a B/X game anyway so if you prefer the formatting of a big price sheet they're a dime-a-dozen online). The game is complete - though it might not be to your taste, and that's fine. If you feel like the carousing table is railroading you, you can ask the GM if you can retheme the spending to suit your character and I'm sure they'll agree. If you're a pious priest, maybe you're spending it giving to the needy, tithing the church, doing stuff like that. I've seen other B/X XP systems based on that kind of premise. None of the other tables I can recall from the book seem to be railroading the player - they're just random encounter tables similar to traditional encounter tables (and what I find most useful from the book).
Quote from: Old Aegidius on March 12, 2024, 12:59:42 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 11, 2024, 10:23:46 PM
No, that's not a price list, it's a random table generator that the GM rolls in, such an "amusing story": Barnacle grog. 1 cp, DC 9 Constitution check or blind 1 hour
It's a random generator to see what's on the menu at the inn. It doesn't have to be on a big price list next to the pickaxes to be valid items for the players to purchase. I agree the format isn't an AD&D price list which is why I contrasted it with that.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 11, 2024, 10:23:46 PM
Now, not all the results of THAT random table are bad, but what IF my PC gets drunk and decides to go to sleep?
...
I'm currently a player in a "campaign" of it, I'll be reporting how much "FUN & AMUSING" it is to have your player agency striped away from you.
Sure, and that's one outcome. My reading of the percentage loss of total wealth is to discourage gaming the carousing table's rewards by spamming low-level carousing for XP. The game revels in randomness. It's baked in from the character advancement to most of the moment-to-moment gameplay. If that's not to your taste, that's fine. I'm unsure if you'll enjoy a ShadowDark campaign based on what I'm hearing from you, but best of luck to you and the other players in finding some enjoyment in it.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 11, 2024, 10:23:46 PM
You have every right to like it, you don't have the right to lie that it's not stealing the player's agency.
Emphasis mine. I did not lie about this and was very clear that the carousing table does take agency away and justified it on the basis that players are participating in the carousing to begin with. Loss of some level of agency is fundamental to every carousing table I've seen. That includes Dragonslayer's carousing table. The outcomes are similar - you can wake up with tattoos, fines, jail time, and even burning down a building. If you don't like how central carousing is to ShadowDark and wish it were an optional rule, I get it. Carousing is an excuse to burn your cash so you always need more. Most B/X gold-for-XP systems I've seen are ultimately about inventing justifications for that. That the carousing table also results in outcomes like making new NPC riends and things like that is just a nice bonus and an easy way to tell an amusing story in brief.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 11, 2024, 04:08:24 PM
I imagine the prices list for Ale, food, bed, tackle, etc are also a DLC because it's not in the book.
...
As a player I want to know how much does an Ale cost, how much for a stew or other foods, same thing for hostel and other things done in town.
Again, emphasis mine. I don't think you're lying - mistakenly missing or forgetting the prices I cited are much more likely. It's factually incorrect though to say that the prices for ale and stew are not in the book (and it's a B/X game anyway so if you prefer the formatting of a big price sheet they're a dime-a-dozen online). The game is complete - though it might not be to your taste, and that's fine. If you feel like the carousing table is railroading you, you can ask the GM if you can retheme the spending to suit your character and I'm sure they'll agree. If you're a pious priest, maybe you're spending it giving to the needy, tithing the church, doing stuff like that. I've seen other B/X XP systems based on that kind of premise. None of the other tables I can recall from the book seem to be railroading the player - they're just random encounter tables similar to traditional encounter tables (and what I find most useful from the book).
Who rolls on THAT random generator? The GM, But sure it's not taking away your agency.
Again, you're free to like it, just don't lie about it.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 12, 2024, 01:09:53 AM
Quote from: Old Aegidius on March 12, 2024, 12:59:42 AM
It's a random generator to see what's on the menu at the inn. It doesn't have to be on a big price list next to the pickaxes to be valid items for the players to purchase. I agree the format isn't an AD&D price list which is why I contrasted it with that.
Who rolls on THAT random generator? The GM, But sure it's not taking away your agency.
Again, you're free to like it, just don't lie about it.
Who rolls on the Tavern generator? The GM, who then presents it to you in-game. You say "I'll have an ale" and the barmaid gives you the options from the menu and you buy what you want. Like most games I've played in. If you prefer buying from the sears catalog rather than roleplaying that interaction, go ahead. I've played like that too.
I have no clue how the tavern generator is taking away your agency and I don't think you have a clear idea either. Enjoy your ShadowDark campaign.
Quote from: Old Aegidius on March 12, 2024, 01:35:48 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 12, 2024, 01:09:53 AM
Quote from: Old Aegidius on March 12, 2024, 12:59:42 AM
It's a random generator to see what's on the menu at the inn. It doesn't have to be on a big price list next to the pickaxes to be valid items for the players to purchase. I agree the format isn't an AD&D price list which is why I contrasted it with that.
Who rolls on THAT random generator? The GM, But sure it's not taking away your agency.
Again, you're free to like it, just don't lie about it.
Who rolls on the Tavern generator? The GM, who then presents it to you in-game. You say "I'll have an ale" and the barmaid gives you the options from the menu and you buy what you want. Like most games I've played in. If you prefer buying from the sears catalog rather than roleplaying that interaction, go ahead. I've played like that too.
I have no clue how the tavern generator is taking away your agency and I don't think you have a clear idea either. Enjoy your ShadowDark campaign.
More lies?
You know damn well I'm talking about the drink random generator. I'm sure the GM presents it to you with the drawbacks and all...
Stop while you're this much behind.
Quote from: Old Aegidius on March 12, 2024, 01:35:48 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 12, 2024, 01:09:53 AM
Quote from: Old Aegidius on March 12, 2024, 12:59:42 AM
It's a random generator to see what's on the menu at the inn. It doesn't have to be on a big price list next to the pickaxes to be valid items for the players to purchase. I agree the format isn't an AD&D price list which is why I contrasted it with that.
Who rolls on THAT random generator? The GM, But sure it's not taking away your agency.
Again, you're free to like it, just don't lie about it.
Who rolls on the Tavern generator? The GM, who then presents it to you in-game. You say "I'll have an ale" and the barmaid gives you the options from the menu and you buy what you want. Like most games I've played in. If you prefer buying from the sears catalog rather than roleplaying that interaction, go ahead. I've played like that too.
I have no clue how the tavern generator is taking away your agency and I don't think you have a clear idea either. Enjoy your ShadowDark campaign.
Greetings!
Yeah, Old Aegidius, all of the different random tables in Shadowdark are fantastic! Lots of creativity and fun! Shadowdark is great! Brutal, quick, and simple. Very much OSR, with a dash of the best aspects of 5E. The artwork is evocative, interesting, and inspiring. The writing is simple, direct, and I also like the fact that it is written with effort towards plain language. Shadowdark has a harsh, brutal aesthetic that goes along well with my own Thandor world.
No Woke BS in the game.
No "Superhero" Player Characters
Simple and quick mechanics, stats and profiles. Running the game, encounters, using the system itself, is a joy and a real pleasure. As a Player, but especially as a GM.
Yep, I have been a fan of Shadowdark from the beginning. I backed Kelsey's Shadowdark Kickstarter at the Legendary level, so I have everything. The book, the deluxe book, the magazines, everything. It is a great deal, and I love it. Every dollar spent was a great investment. Every paragraph in the books, the magazines, is designed for VALUE. There is none of the pages and pages of Stupid, meaningless jabbering you find with WOTC books for *years* now. Kelsey edits like a ruthless Viking chick with a chainsaw. *Laughing* The writing can take a bit to get used to, but damn, it is refreshing and such a pleasure. I love it all.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Greetings!
For those folks that have not bought a copy of Shadowdark, here is a really excellent and thorough review of Shadowdark, by RedMageGM.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK