Quote from: WarthurHell yes. A subculture that can't laugh at itself is a subculture that is betraying some very, very deep-rooted insecurities in my book.

Mate, if you think that I as a geek never laugh at myself, and other geeks, then you ought to look at the first page or two of this very subforum, the threads I've started.

There's laughing with us, and there's laughing at us. Something like SJGames' Munchkin, or the Full Frontal Nerdity cmic strips, is laughing with us; HoL or Violence are laughing at. Different things.

I own it and have read it.

It was funny.  I'll never play it though.

Quote from: MelanFor what it's worth, I didn't get gamer-hate from HöL, but certainly a lot of self-referential humour.

I'm on the "Funny" side of all this myself.  But I wouldn't try to play it - it's not really a roleplaying game, it's a joke, and less playable than Munchkin, which I have played, and Hackmaster, which has active players.

Quote from: JimBobOzThere's laughing with us, and there's laughing at us. Something like SJGames' Munchkin, or the Full Frontal Nerdity cmic strips, is laughing with us; HoL or Violence are laughing at. Different things.

I'm not too sure of that. Munchkin has always seemed to me to be Steve Jackson's hateful attack on D&D.  ESPECIALLY considering that the only D20 product he ever made was Munchkin D20...

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditI'm not too sure of that. Munchkin has always seemed to me to be Steve Jackson's hateful attack on D&D.  ESPECIALLY considering that the only D20 product he ever made was Munchkin D20...

RPGPundit

Actually, StarMunchkin is a pretty fun game to play.

Quote from: jcfialaActually, StarMunchkin is a pretty fun game to play.

I didn't say he didn't do it well. Just that it seemed a pretty clear-cut case of ideologically motivated attack to me, especially given Jackson's history and his known feelings about D&D and especially D20.

RPGpundit

Quote from: SpikeI once owned it and it's only supplement, Buttery Wholesomeness... Sadly, now I only own the main book...

There's a brand new copy of Buttery Wholesomeness at the FLGS. I'll PM you with their contact info. If you like, you can snap it up.

Quote from: RPGPunditI'm not too sure of that. Munchkin has always seemed to me to be Steve Jackson's hateful attack on D&D.  ESPECIALLY considering that the only D20 product he ever made was Munchkin D20...

Munchkin always struck me as something that likely started off life as a fairly bitchy joke, but realized that it was a good game early enough in development to be more funny and playable than nasty.

Which is to say, maybe in original intent.

Quote from: JimBobOzMate, if you think that I as a geek never laugh at myself, and other geeks, then you ought to look at the first page or two of this very subforum, the threads I've started.

There's laughing with us, and there's laughing at us. Something like SJGames' Munchkin, or the Full Frontal Nerdity cmic strips, is laughing with us; HoL or Violence are laughing at. Different things.

Just because you don't think outrageous violence and offensiveness is funny doesn't mean you're being laughed at. It just means you don't share my sense of humour.

Personally, I don't much care for Munchkin or Full Frontal Nerdity's sense of humour because there seems to be a little too much of the geek back-patting "hey, we're all cool dudes because we're in on the in-joke" wankery about them. (This is why I ended up drifting away from Knights of the Dinner Table too.)

Quote from: WarthurJust because you don't think outrageous violence and offensiveness is funny doesn't mean you're being laughed at. It just means you don't share my sense of humour.

I didn't say it wasn't funny. I just said it was obvious they were mocking gamers ni a pretty contemptuous way. Like old Costikyan's Violence, where he explicitly compares dungeon crawls to going into into apartments of people in public housing, murdering them and taking their stuff. That guy's laughing at us.

Quote from: WarthurPersonally, I don't much care for Munchkin or Full Frontal Nerdity's sense of humour because there seems to be a little too much of the geek back-patting "hey, we're all cool dudes because we're in on the in-joke" wankery about them.

Yeah, that's what I meant by "laughing with us." Perhaps you prefer contemptuous scorn for gamers. But then, you're an advocate of Forge theory, aren't you?

Lots of straw men there, Jim.

I found Hol to be very, very funny and I liked the layout and the illustrations too. I coloured some of them when I was bored.
The suplement I found a bit less fun, but I think that's mainly because by then some og the jokes had allready been done and some of the references went over my head.

The problem with playing a game like that is that it is almost impossible for the group to make something that's funny enough not to fall a bit flat. With such a build up, you need really, really excellent jokes for it not to feel like an anti climax. I get the same problems trying to play, say, Discworld.

But Hol is still one of my favourite "reading rpg."

Jim, mate, I agree with you more than not, but in this case I have to disagree.

I have read HOL, neither played it nor read the supplement. I couldn't stop laughing. The same with Violence by Costykian. It's pure self-referential humor, but I fail to find any attack or contempt on it.

Also, what bondetamp said. Is a problem I find quite often with comedic games.

Quote from: JimBobOzI didn't say it wasn't funny. I just said it was obvious they were mocking gamers ni a pretty contemptuous way. Like old Costikyan's Violence, where he explicitly compares dungeon crawls to going into into apartments of people in public housing, murdering them and taking their stuff. That guy's laughing at us.

The guy is one of us. As are the guys behind HoL. Really, every inch of HoL says to me "this was written by some gamers with a wicked sense of humour". If there's any hostility, it's directed far more at the game industry than at gamers themselves. (I agree with the other poster who said it's deliciously ironic that White Wolf ended up publishing it.)

As for Violence, yes, sure, it's making a point, in a particularly snarky way, but a) HoL doesn't have an agenda, and b) Violence doesn't have an air of smug superiority in the same way as, say, the humourless Power Kill (also published in Hogshead's New Style series) has.

Lastly, satire is the highest form of wit, even if it's self-satirising. Did you enjoy Monty Python's Life of Brian?

QuoteYeah, that's what I meant by "laughing with us."

It's possible to laugh with someone without engaging in a silly, insular form of humour with no teeth or backbone.

QuotePerhaps you prefer contemptuous scorn for gamers. But then, you're an advocate of Forge theory, aren't you?

No, I'm really not.

Can't you laugh at yourself, dude? You sound insecure.

Quote from: JimBobOzI didn't say it wasn't funny. I just said it was obvious they were mocking gamers ni a pretty contemptuous way. Like old Costikyan's Violence, where he explicitly compares dungeon crawls to going into into apartments of people in public housing, murdering them and taking their stuff. That guy's laughing at us.

Shit, I hope to be half the gamer Costikyan is when I grow up.  If there's gamer contempt in Violence (and maybe there is), at least some of it has to be self-directed.

On the other hand, I do catch a whiff of contempt in Munchkin.  Something about that game let me feeling it was mean-spirited.

Thing with stuff like Munchkin is, it always seemed to me that it was the very targets of the satire who were the "cool" crowd who were in on the joke. In my circle it's hardcore D&D enthusiasts who are the most voracious Munchkin players, and find the humor to be a riot. When my ex-wife was hanging around with me and my gamer friends, we had to explain munchkin and what the joke was, and then she could kind of get the humor, and at least appreciate the backstabb-y, ruthless nature of it, but tons of jokes like the Gelatinous Octahedron sailed right over her head. You really need to like D&D to find much humor in the game. The "oh yeah, I've been there" factor of specific mocked behaviors is the biggest draw, and it works whether you've inflicted or endured the behavior in question. And really, how is Munchkin a specimen of gamer-hate in this regard, while "I am an angry GM" isn't?

Myself, I enjoy Munchkin because it keeps the humor light and breezy and wicked. I drifted from KoDT because it got consistently less funny and more laborious: Jolly seemed to forget that there was a joke, descend into Stockholm syndrome regarding his creations, and get stuck in a wierd rut simply detailing (and OH do I mean detailing) their labyrinthine campaign, with occasional funny. The early, punchy strips were the best: "You do realise that Thor is a GOD, right? You can't hit him and even if you did he has infinite hitpoints!" "What's your point, BA?" "Yeah, quit stallin' and start rollin' those dice!"

Peace,
Joel

Edit: hit send prematurely.