Did anyone actually ever play this game? Any idea what its about? The gist of it?
RPGPundit
I once owned it and it's only supplement, Buttery Wholesomeness... Sadly, now I only own the main book...
HoL wasn't really about anything except being fucked up. THe entire game line (two books, yes) looked like mad scribblings on napkins and included seriously warped humor. Shit swamps, Uncle Mickey (A mickey mouse eared aliens Queen), pedophiliac preists as pregenerated characters (or Elvis if you wanted, or the wereguy...)...
Basically, HoL is a prison planet, a dumping ground for all the undesirables in the galaxy and you just landed. Have fun.
HoL needs to be on pdf most riki-tik. Back in the day I used to lie about having played it to generate geek cred.
IIRC, it was beautiful in the way it skewered RPGs (and White Wolf in specific.)
Was it ever actually intended to be played? I flipped through the first book, saw it as White Wolf's attempt at "edgey" self-parody, then put it back on the shelf.
!i!
It's a joke rpg, written to mock gamers. Like Costikyan's Violence: the roleplaying game of egregrious bloodshed.
I got it as a prize at a con once. "You were the best GM, so we gave you the worst roleplaying game."
It remains the only in-print rpg which I have ever thrown away. If I want to read stuff from people who hate gamers, I can go to The Forge, I don't need it in print sitting on my bookshelf making my other rpgs nervous.
It's a piece of shit mocking gamers.
Played it once. Was The Man With No Name. One of the others played Led Phipe. Never was I so glad to see everyone else get too drunk to keep playing, it was that retarded.
The Buttery wHöLsomeness supplement, which was the only book I have seen of it, has a clever parody of High Gygaxian RPG writing. Otherwise, meh.
I didn't feel terribly attacked or mocked by either HoL or its supplement, personally. It read a lot more to me like a shot at game authors, both those who came before and those they had in-house. Character creation was a whole lot of fun - which of course required the supplement (my favorite jab ever) - "Sneezed while double-fisting it at the shrimp buffet; yep, totally blind". It's the game of fatal character creation that everyone forgets about.
We played it for about two hours once, waiting for the rest of the group to arrive. Led reduced the priest (and his...companion) to a fine grey ash while firing on Sodomy Bikers, the potato-dude was crushed under an avalanche of old toasters, and as I recall, "The power of Crispy Christ compels you!" failed to avert the shuttle Led shot down from crashing directly on top of me to end the session. It's playable, but retarded, like Beavis and Butthead and the fat blonde kid in the Winger shirt wrote an RPG.
Quote from: JimBobOzIt's a joke rpg, written to mock gamers. Like Costikyan's Violence: the roleplaying game of egregrious bloodshed.
I got it as a prize at a con once. "You were the best GM, so we gave you the worst roleplaying game."
It remains the only in-print rpg which I have ever thrown away. If I want to read stuff from people who hate gamers, I can go to The Forge, I don't need it in print sitting on my bookshelf making my other rpgs nervous.
It's a piece of shit mocking gamers.
You got to admit though, it really does hit the mark.
Quote from: WarthurYou got to admit though, it really does hit the mark.
In the same way Uncle Ronny's "gamers are literally brain-damaged" piece did.
For what it's worth, I didn't get gamer-hate from HöL, but certainly a lot of self-referential humour.
I liked the damage table, but it hits a lot of the same territory as "Macho Women With Guns", but with more swears/gross-outs and less actual jokes
Kind of like the difference between Candid Camera and Jackass
Quote from: MelanFor what it's worth, I didn't get gamer-hate from HöL, but certainly a lot of self-referential humour.
Hell yes. A subculture that can't laugh at itself is a subculture that is betraying some very, very deep-rooted insecurities in my book.
I read about 30 pages, before I gave up and flipped the rest of the way through.
I'd say the game was written never to be played, but how the fuck did it ever get into mainstream (if you class WW as mainstream) publication. HOW?
Quote from: LawbagI'd say the game was written never to be played, but how the fuck did it ever get into mainstream (if you class WW as mainstream) publication. HOW?
If you discount the humour the content isn't any worse than some of the other Black Dog Games stuff (particularly "Destiny's Price" - weren't the Tzimiche (yes I know I've spelt that wrong) and Salubri splatbooks also on Black Dog?)
Quote from: WarthurHell yes. A subculture that can't laugh at itself is a subculture that is betraying some very, very deep-rooted insecurities in my book.
Mate, if you think that I as a geek never laugh at myself, and other geeks, then you ought to look at the first page or two of this very subforum, the threads I've started.
There's laughing
with us, and there's laughing
at us. Something like SJGames'
Munchkin, or the
Full Frontal Nerdity cmic strips, is laughing
with us;
HoL or
Violence are laughing
at. Different things.
I own it and have read it.
It was funny. I'll never play it though.
Quote from: MelanFor what it's worth, I didn't get gamer-hate from HöL, but certainly a lot of self-referential humour.
I'm on the "Funny" side of all this myself. But I wouldn't try to play it - it's not really a roleplaying game, it's a joke, and less playable than Munchkin, which I have played, and Hackmaster, which has active players.
Quote from: JimBobOzThere's laughing with us, and there's laughing at us. Something like SJGames' Munchkin, or the Full Frontal Nerdity cmic strips, is laughing with us; HoL or Violence are laughing at. Different things.
I'm not too sure of that. Munchkin has always seemed to me to be Steve Jackson's hateful attack on D&D. ESPECIALLY considering that the only D20 product he ever made was Munchkin D20...
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditI'm not too sure of that. Munchkin has always seemed to me to be Steve Jackson's hateful attack on D&D. ESPECIALLY considering that the only D20 product he ever made was Munchkin D20...
RPGPundit
Actually, StarMunchkin is a pretty fun game to play.
Quote from: jcfialaActually, StarMunchkin is a pretty fun game to play.
I didn't say he didn't do it well. Just that it seemed a pretty clear-cut case of ideologically motivated attack to me, especially given Jackson's history and his known feelings about D&D and especially D20.
RPGpundit
Quote from: SpikeI once owned it and it's only supplement, Buttery Wholesomeness... Sadly, now I only own the main book...
There's a brand new copy of Buttery Wholesomeness at the FLGS. I'll PM you with their contact info. If you like, you can snap it up.
Quote from: RPGPunditI'm not too sure of that. Munchkin has always seemed to me to be Steve Jackson's hateful attack on D&D. ESPECIALLY considering that the only D20 product he ever made was Munchkin D20...
Munchkin always struck me as something that likely started off life as a fairly bitchy joke, but realized that it was a good game early enough in development to be more funny and playable than nasty.
Which is to say, maybe in original intent.
Quote from: JimBobOzMate, if you think that I as a geek never laugh at myself, and other geeks, then you ought to look at the first page or two of this very subforum, the threads I've started.
There's laughing with us, and there's laughing at us. Something like SJGames' Munchkin, or the Full Frontal Nerdity cmic strips, is laughing with us; HoL or Violence are laughing at. Different things.
Just because you don't think outrageous violence and offensiveness is funny doesn't mean you're being laughed at. It just means you don't share my sense of humour.
Personally, I don't much care for Munchkin or Full Frontal Nerdity's sense of humour because there seems to be a little too much of the geek back-patting "hey, we're all cool dudes because we're in on the in-joke" wankery about them. (This is why I ended up drifting away from Knights of the Dinner Table too.)
Quote from: WarthurJust because you don't think outrageous violence and offensiveness is funny doesn't mean you're being laughed at. It just means you don't share my sense of humour.
I didn't say it wasn't funny. I just said it was obvious they were mocking gamers ni a pretty contemptuous way. Like old Costikyan's
Violence, where he explicitly compares dungeon crawls to going into into apartments of people in public housing, murdering them and taking their stuff. That guy's laughing
at us.
Quote from: WarthurPersonally, I don't much care for Munchkin or Full Frontal Nerdity's sense of humour because there seems to be a little too much of the geek back-patting "hey, we're all cool dudes because we're in on the in-joke" wankery about them.
Yeah, that's what I meant by "laughing
with us." Perhaps you prefer contemptuous scorn for gamers. But then, you're an advocate of Forge theory, aren't you?
Lots of straw men there, Jim. :)
I found Hol to be very, very funny and I liked the layout and the illustrations too. I coloured some of them when I was bored.
The suplement I found a bit less fun, but I think that's mainly because by then some og the jokes had allready been done and some of the references went over my head.
The problem with playing a game like that is that it is almost impossible for the group to make something that's funny enough not to fall a bit flat. With such a build up, you need really, really excellent jokes for it not to feel like an anti climax. I get the same problems trying to play, say, Discworld.
But Hol is still one of my favourite "reading rpg." :)
Jim, mate, I agree with you more than not, but in this case I have to disagree.
I have read HOL, neither played it nor read the supplement. I couldn't stop laughing. The same with Violence by Costykian. It's pure self-referential humor, but I fail to find any attack or contempt on it.
Also, what bondetamp said. Is a problem I find quite often with comedic games.
Quote from: JimBobOzI didn't say it wasn't funny. I just said it was obvious they were mocking gamers ni a pretty contemptuous way. Like old Costikyan's Violence, where he explicitly compares dungeon crawls to going into into apartments of people in public housing, murdering them and taking their stuff. That guy's laughing at us.
The guy is one of us. As are the guys behind HoL. Really, every inch of HoL says to me "this was written by some gamers with a wicked sense of humour". If there's any hostility, it's directed far more at the game industry than at gamers themselves. (I agree with the other poster who said it's deliciously ironic that White Wolf ended up publishing it.)
As for Violence, yes, sure, it's making a point, in a particularly snarky way, but a) HoL doesn't have an agenda, and b) Violence doesn't have an air of smug superiority in the same way as, say, the humourless
Power Kill (also published in Hogshead's New Style series) has.
Lastly, satire is the highest form of wit, even if it's self-satirising. Did you enjoy Monty Python's
Life of Brian?
QuoteYeah, that's what I meant by "laughing with us."
It's possible to laugh with someone without engaging in a silly, insular form of humour with no teeth or backbone.
QuotePerhaps you prefer contemptuous scorn for gamers. But then, you're an advocate of Forge theory, aren't you?
No, I'm really not.
Can't you laugh at yourself, dude? You sound insecure.
Quote from: JimBobOzI didn't say it wasn't funny. I just said it was obvious they were mocking gamers ni a pretty contemptuous way. Like old Costikyan's Violence, where he explicitly compares dungeon crawls to going into into apartments of people in public housing, murdering them and taking their stuff. That guy's laughing at us.
Shit, I hope to be half the gamer Costikyan is when I grow up. If there's gamer contempt in Violence (and maybe there is), at least some of it has to be self-directed.
On the other hand, I do catch a whiff of contempt in Munchkin. Something about that game let me feeling it was mean-spirited.
Thing with stuff like Munchkin is, it always seemed to me that it was the very targets of the satire who were the "cool" crowd who were in on the joke. In my circle it's hardcore D&D enthusiasts who are the most voracious Munchkin players, and find the humor to be a riot. When my ex-wife was hanging around with me and my gamer friends, we had to explain munchkin and what the joke was, and then she could kind of get the humor, and at least appreciate the backstabb-y, ruthless nature of it, but tons of jokes like the Gelatinous Octahedron sailed right over her head. You really need to like D&D to find much humor in the game. The "oh yeah, I've been there" factor of specific mocked behaviors is the biggest draw, and it works whether you've inflicted or endured the behavior in question. And really, how is Munchkin a specimen of gamer-hate in this regard, while "I am an angry GM" isn't?
Myself, I enjoy Munchkin because it keeps the humor light and breezy and wicked. I drifted from KoDT because it got consistently less funny and more laborious: Jolly seemed to forget that there was a joke, descend into Stockholm syndrome regarding his creations, and get stuck in a wierd rut simply detailing (and OH do I mean detailing) their labyrinthine campaign, with occasional funny. The early, punchy strips were the best: "You do realise that Thor is a GOD, right? You can't hit him and even if you did he has infinite hitpoints!" "What's your point, BA?" "Yeah, quit stallin' and start rollin' those dice!"
Peace,
Joel
Edit: hit send prematurely.
Quote from: jrientsShit, I hope to be half the gamer Costikyan is when I grow up.
Great gamer or not, his articles just ooze with bitterness. I'd prefer being a happy mediocre gamer than an eternally dissatisfied great one.
Quote from: MelanGreat gamer or not, his articles just ooze with bitterness. I'd prefer being a happy mediocre gamer than an eternally dissatisfied great one.
Costikyan is a bitter old ass. Violence, while amusing, is defintiely his parting shot at the world of RPGs.
He's long since abandoned the tabletop gaming realm for long-winded punditry about vidgames and pushing the swinish "casual games" market.
Violence really stuck in my craw. It's nothing more than the writer screaming "I HATE THIS! AND THIS! AND THIS! AND YOU!" for God knows how long. It's not even funny.
If you're going to be an asshole, be a funny asshole. Otherwise you're just wasting my fucking time.
Quote from: MelinglorThing with stuff like Munchkin is, it always seemed to me that it was the very targets of the satire who were the "cool" crowd who were in on the joke. In my circle it's hardcore D&D enthusiasts who are the most voracious Munchkin players, and find the humor to be a riot. .
On the other hand, I rather accidentally created a small monster in the local area with munchkin... to whit a crowd of 40-80 somes who have never really gamed in their life (as we use the term) who play more munchkin than I do. Okay, so that isn't that hard, but still, non-gamers find the game, and it's backstabby mentality very fun, and much of the humor as well. Ya don't need to be an insider to 'get it'.:p