Ok, here's the scenario: let's say someone finally used "reason" (ie. a severe beating with lead pipes until obedience is achieved) on Kevin Siembieda and "convinced" him to come up with a new edition of RIFTS.
Now, Kevin gets some other dude to do the "rules mechanics" part of the game, so you don't have to worry about that, but he picks YOU to redesign the the setting.
What would you do?
What parts of the setting/classes/races/stuff would you change?
Would you change anything?
How much of the world would you detail in the main book, and how would you detail it?
RPGPundit
The setting can remain as is, it's the ruleset that needs to be scrapped entirely.
Personally I'd go with something similar to Mutants & Masterminds 2E, where characters have the same Power Level, albeit expressed in wildly different ways. Thus you could play an unenhanced mechanic running around with a Glitter Boy and not feel thoroughly outclassed.
I´d change the skill system.
I´d introduce comprehensive tables for bonus advancement.
I´d keep the rest as it is.
Quote from: SettembriniI´d keep the rest as it is.
Really? What about MDC?
!i!
Yeah, what about it? Works splendid for me.
Convert it all to D&D and make liberal use of Level Adjustment as a mechanic.
Rifts is, basically, already houseruled D&D, so there's really no reason not to just drop the broken mess and go back to it's roots. The things that don't make sense for anything but D&D are already built into Rifts too, so you don't even get that same cognitive dissonance you get with most D&D conversions.
The biggest problem with Rifts though, isn't so much the core system, though that's certainly not without problems and badly needs a total reorganization and rewrite, it's the class and races.
There's effectively no reason whatsoever to use a level mechanic if you're not even going to make a semblance of effort towards class/character balance. The levels effectively become meaningless numbers and you may as well drop them.
Hence the level adjustments. This this really probably should've been in Rifts eons ago, and it would go well towards smoothing out a lot of the character balance issues.
The other aspect would be actually bloody playtesting this shit, and getting people who actually play the game to edit as well. There needs to be somebody keeping things in line, some behind the scenes guidelines for class/race balance or something. The present approach of just slapping whatever badly thought out piece of crap the latest sucker of a freelancer can come up with into a book and calling it good, just ain't gonna cut it these days, not in the face of competition like D&D and WoD.
A more open setting would be nice too. No more declaring almost the entire United States to be basically uninhabited and uninhabitable, just to try and force all your players to play Coalition centered games. One of the fun bits of a post apocalyptic game is imagining what your little corner of the world might be like after the fall of civilization.
Also, drop the creepy fascist love-in angle with the Coalition for fuck's sake. They're villains dammit, leave it that way. One of the things that drove me away, and kept me away, was a growing vibe around the Coalition centered books that reminded me of the WWII fan who's just a little TOO enthusiastic about Nazi Germany. The US flags and shit were originally supposed to be ironic, but the authors seemed to forget that and instead started turning the concept into a far-rightist wet dream.
Make the rest of the world more interesting. Yeah, I realize you've got limited schedules, but for fucks sake, basically every book that covered the rest of the world boiled down to one or two local factions, and a whole lot of bug fuck nothing. The spent too much paper detailing every last possible profession in Organization X, when they could've been doing one or two classes from a whole bunch of different factions.
Alternately, consider much, much, much more generic classes. Ultra-specific classes like Rifts' can work, but it means you're basically perpetually tied down to whatever classes are available in the books, unless you want to try and write your own.
Re-Hire the guy who wrote Phase World. He seemed to do a much better job of coming up with interesting shit than a lot of the other sourcebook writers did. Yeah it was a bit overpowered, even by Rifts standards, but honestly I always found the stuff in that book far more interesting than much of what was going on on Earth.
And for the love of all that is holy, hire a real editor, and some real layout artists, and buy some actual computers. Tell Kevin the Luddite curmudgeon angle isn't cute, it's just pathetic. If my 65 year old grandfather can learn to use a computer, and my 70 year old grandmother can run her own office services business, then he can sure as fuck learn how to write a simple fucking email.
...okay...fine I'll bite.
Keep the setting "AS IS"...but convert the whole thing to a "Powered by GURPS" series of books.
Hell, several preople already want to do that and have tried to do web pages devoted to that . Palladium keeps thjreatening them.
Its close enough to the INFINITE WORLDS kind of thing already - it could work.
- Ed C.
Quote from: SettembriniI´d change the skill system.
That's the biggest thing for me. For starters, until RUE came out, how one actually used many skills was never actually explained in the Rifts rule books. Then, of course, you had to deal with the fact that there are essentially three kinds of skills -- those that rank ability with a percentile score, those that modify an ability, and those that do neither.
Frankly, this part of Rifts makes the vast majority of free RPGs look good by comparison (despite designing free-press game, I do not suffer from the delusion that all or most free games are what one might consider
good). I mean,
fuck -- unified skill mechanics (not the same thing as unified
resolution mechanics, mind you) have been the norm since the late 1970s.
As for other things that I'd address. . .
Mega Damage. The concept is sound. What Kevin needs to do is
pick a system and stick with it. Fuck this "Different MD rules for different supplements!" crap. The big problem with MD isn't that it's broke, but that it's handled inconsistently across the entire game line. Most of the actual "doesn't conform to physics" weirdness is something that Joe Gamer could give two shits about, as evidenced by Palladium's strong sales (well, up until the last three years or so).
I'd put the monster creation tables back in the core RUE book, for starters. And maybe tack on some Dee Bees to boot. As it stands, if you want your campaign to be about anything other than fighting facism in post-Rifts America, you're shit out of luck. And even then, without any write-ups for the subject of the Coalition's ire, the default setting is remarkably incomplete.
What possible good could crippling the utility of the core book do? I mean, aside from the glaringly obvious "Force consumers to buy supplements!" (which, despite whatever Kevin may think, has probably done more to drive away potential fans than it has to attract them). It's a marketing misstep that other companies who publish games with one core book learned to avoid the better part of a decade ago.
Next, while this may sound radical, I'd advocate dumping the Coalition States as the default setting. What was cool and edgy (sp?) in the early 1980s is now boring and culturally irrelevant. I think that the Coalition States should still be a part of Rifts, mind you -- but there are far more interesting locales (Atlantis, anybody?) to enshrine as the
default setting. The Coalition States aren't the draw (to current fans
or newcomers) that they once were.
Finally, I'd use some mother-fucking Adobe rather than a goddamn gluestick to layout and edit my printer's proofs. There are some things done better the old-fashioned way (e.g., distilling whiskey, tailoring suits, etc). Laying out books for mass production is not one of these things. That 1980s copy shop, lithograph, layout is
ass.
Dudes, i specifically said that this wasn't a thread for talking about mechanics systems; its for talking about setting (and arguably stuff like layout and presentation).
If you want to start talking about mechanics, start another thread!
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditDudes, i specifically said that this wasn't a thread for talking about mechanics systems; its for talking about setting (and arguably stuff like layout and presentation).
If you want to start talking about mechanics, start another thread!
RPGPundit
Doesn't work like that, dude.
The mechanics of rifts are intricately intertwined with the setting, because by and large due to the approach of their sourcebook line, the mechanics ARE the setting.
See my comment regarding ultra-specific classes.
Sorry, I misread.
So why would you want to change anything in the setting?
It hasn´t got a metaplot, so it´s all yours to play with anyway?
Quote from: RPGPunditDudes, i specifically said that this wasn't a thread for talking about mechanics systems; its for talking about setting (and arguably stuff like layout and presentation).
By and large most people seem to be fairly satisfied with the Rifts Setting.
The mechanics on the other hand... only Kevin Siembieda himself attracts more dissatisfaction and outright hostility.
Quote from: SettembriniSorry, I misread.
So why would you want to change anything in the setting?
It hasn´t got a metaplot, so it´s all yours to play with anyway?
I missed that, too. My primary concerns (per my earlier post) are presentation issues (this is true when pertaining to MD and skills, as well). Namely, I think that the quality of layout sucks, and the
presentation of rules needs to be far, far, more even across the game line. The only major setting issue I have is the aforementioned choice of the Coalition States as the default lay of the land (and, again, its somewhat poor support in RUE). But. . .
If pressed, I think that I might also choose to actually have some of the godlike entities on the planet start inconveniencing their peers. Remarkably, at the current time, most of the World Books seem to exist in a vacuum without any of the Nigh- Omnipotent Big Bads capable of affecting the world outside of their respective sourcebook. That has always caused me great difficulty when it came to suspending disbelief in Rifts campaigns.
Quote from: jdrakehIf pressed, I think that I might also choose to actually have some of the godlike entities on the planet start inconveniencing their peers. Remarkably, at the current time, most of the World Books seem to exist in a vacuum without any of the Nigh- Omnipotent Big Bads capable of affecting the world outside of their respective sourcebook. That has always caused me great difficulty when it came to suspending disbelief in Rifts campaigns.
I´ve always thought of this as a boon: Instead of Kevin telling me how the war of Egypt vs. Splynncrith goes, I can sort that out myself. So I´d definitely wouldn´t want that being adressed in publications.
Quote from: J ArcaneDoesn't work like that, dude.
The mechanics of rifts are intricately intertwined with the setting, because by and large due to the approach of their sourcebook line, the mechanics ARE the setting.
See my comment regarding ultra-specific classes.
You're right. If the mechanics change, the setting changes with it.
My thirteen year old son found my short stack of Palladium books sitting in the bottom of a box I was getting ready to take to storage. He flipped through most of them quickly, but paused here and there. He slowly walked out of the game room, nose deep in a book and sat down. He looked over at me accusingly and said: "I didn't know there was a Turtles game."
"Um . . . yep."
"And this one (Nightspawn) has, like . . . some kind of mutation table."
"Yeah, I believe it does." I wasn't going to bite on that.
"And man--what is this?" Of course he was wide-eyed and wondering about Rifts.
Despite my sig, I have no hate or Rifts, I just find it somewhat exasperating. But watching my son confront the pages and ages of awesomerestness, I had to admit that the setting was a pretty pure vein of . . . something. So I don't know that I'd change much, myself. Except maybe re-present the material as though it were a Saturady morning show produced by Sid and Marty Krofft.
I hope you let him keep those gamebooks?
RIFTS (or any other palladium RPG) is the perfect first game for a teenager to GM. It teaches them a lot of lessons, mostly in how to improvise and how to keep control of a ridiculous situation. These are very useful things.
Plus, the setting stuff in RIFTS is like crack for 12-14 year olds. The only thing that might be more appealing is a nudie magazine.
RPGPundit
Quote from: SettembriniSorry, I misread.
So why would you want to change anything in the setting?
It hasn´t got a metaplot, so it´s all yours to play with anyway?
I didn't say that I did want to change anything, I wanted to see if others thought they should. I did make one of the options "change nothing".
Also, technically RIFTS DOES have a metaplot. The Coalition wars?
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditI didn't say that I did want to change anything, I wanted to see if others thought they should. I did make one of the options "change nothing".
Also, technically RIFTS DOES have a metaplot. The Coalition wars?
RPGPundit
And that metaplot basicall tanked. Add to that: the metaplot, thankfully, was not spread over other setting books, but had it´s own line of books.
A real metaplot heavy game FORCES you to follow it, to be able to use official publications.
Erin Tarn needs to get the shaft.
James is right about the Coalition States, but I don't have a better idea. It's all very tricky. CS = fascist Starship Troopers. Fed of Magic = Evul. Tolkeen/Laszlo = do-gooders. One really doesn't want to associate with any of them.
Q: Bug or feature? If I were in sector duke mode I'd say: Given that all the major powers suck, let's build a city after our own liking.
You know what RIFTS really desperately needs, setting wise? Its own "Port Blacksand". As in, a big city that isn't totally totalitarian (like the Coalition), and isn't so good its boring (like Lazlo).
Rather, a "city of thieves", a huge sprawling semi-lawless marketplace ruled by a pirate king who doesn't give a fuck what goes on in his streets as long as everyone pays their tribute to him, a wild place where anything goes.
RPGPundit
Doesn't something like that exist in Texas or Arizona? But if so, it's true that it would be somewhat peripheral, and it should actually be central--where Chi-Town is now.
The setting needs a reboot. The entire development of the setting since the original rulebook needs to be junked. The timeline should be reset to the year 101 P.A., and the presentation needs to be wholly objective- if it's in print, it has to be 100% true and accurate.
Development of the setting needs to be done slowly, over time, to drive sales of the rulebook. Initially, and for no less than five years, this needs to be all about North America; you can easily maintain this focus for a full decade and not run out of material. Once you're done with North America, then shift your focus to another area of the world; this should be determined by international sales and interest, so the area with the highest demand gets the attention its due, and furthermore as much talent from that area as possible should be put to the task of writing and developing products about that area.
A goodly amount of time needs to be taken, even before a single letter hits the page, in first coming up with a future history that maintains verisimilitude and then in making that future history into something that is both playable and easily accessable to the common gamer. (This is why you maintain a lore database on your official website these days, and in multiple languages; it's where you put all the stuff that isn't what you need to put into print to play the game.) Find some university students in the various disciplines and offer internships to them; they'll be plenty happy for the experience, and they'll be good for your final product- credit and reward them appropriately. If you can, travel to your subject area and see it first-hand; it's old, but it's true- the map is not the territory.
Yes, you're writing a RIFTS product, so you're not going to be wholly hard-SF. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't try to get the things that most folks do have familiarity with right, and it doesn't mean that you don't acknowledge the beliefs that govern the fantastic elements that you're using for your game. (If you're going to use a real-world supernatural tradition, take time to research it, regardless of your beliefs on the matter; your work will be better for doing so, and sell better too.)
Finally, pay attention to morale and logistics in your setting- pay attention to the economics. These things are the lynchpins in all endeavors, great and small, and they deserve to be addressed with the gravity that they possess. (They're also good adventure fodder; can't make war if you can't supply the troops, can't build walls if you can't get the supplies to the workers, and you can't hold a group together if there's no confidence in your leadership- not without force or fraud.)
Quote from: RPGPunditI hope you let him keep those gamebooks?
RIFTS (or any other palladium RPG) is the perfect first game for a teenager to GM. It teaches them a lot of lessons, mostly in how to improvise and how to keep control of a ridiculous situation. These are very useful things.
Plus, the setting stuff in RIFTS is like crack for 12-14 year olds. The only thing that might be more appealing is a nudie magazine.
RPGPundit
Sure I did. Almost anything he wants to read independently for a couple hours is OK with me.
Most of the Palladium product lines were represented in the box, except Fantasy and Macross. He already wants to run a Ninjas and Superspies campaign, including monster forms from Nightspawn, and enemy weapons and tactics from Beyond the Supernatural. Technological "pollution" has corrupted the natural order of magic on earth, spawning monsters who organize into underground cells to battle pure-strain human fascists, intent on eradicating technology in favor of a return to that old time religion--ancient Sumarian mystery magic and whatnot. Definately a thirteen year old's idea of occult conspiracy. Chip off the old block.
Rifts needs a little more cool cosmic magic and nature stuff to contrast to the excellent industrial kickassedness. And a Rifts Sanctuary/Lankhmar would be very cool.
I'd add a bigass motherfuckin' dungeon, sitting right where Washington, DC used to be. It would have 666 levels. The fat book devoted to it would have new monsters, a few sample levels, and gigantic random dungeon and monster charts. The boss monster on the last level would be Satan. Who is also a cyborg.
The first thing I would do is fix the damn map, the high water/flood mark is not right :D then I would reedit and reorganize the core book . I would leave any changes to mechanics for last (MDC would get some tweaking).
Fuck, the maps! I forgot about them.
I once put them to close scrutinizitfication, scientific result:
They don´t match up. Neither with reality, nor with themselves.
The first one I could live with, but the second one really stunted my Google Earth Overlay project: It´s too much work for the benefit involved.
Quote from: stu2000Despite my sig, I have no hate or Rifts, I just find it somewhat exasperating. But watching my son confront the pages and ages of awesomerestness, I had to admit that the setting was a pretty pure vein of . . . something. So I don't know that I'd change much, myself. Except maybe re-present the material as though it were a Saturady morning show produced by Sid and Marty Krofft.
They did have a cartoon like Rifts. It was called "Thundarr the Barbarian".:p
Seriously I have considered running a Rifts game like Thundarr. I think it would be some post apoc gonzo fun.:D
OhOh! I have another one:
PRE-Fucking-PAINTED-MINIS!!!!!1111
Quote from: RPGPunditYou know what RIFTS really desperately needs, setting wise? Its own "Port Blacksand". As in, a big city that isn't totally totalitarian (like the Coalition), and isn't so good its boring (like Lazlo).
Rather, a "city of thieves", a huge sprawling semi-lawless marketplace ruled by a pirate king who doesn't give a fuck what goes on in his streets as long as everyone pays their tribute to him, a wild place where anything goes.
RPGPundit
They kind of do with atlantis. But it is ruled by evil for evil so to speak.
Quote from: SettembriniOhOh! I have another one:
PRE-Fucking-PAINTED-MINIS!!!!!1111
Yeah, I think this is something every popular system should try. A small selection of iconic character types, monsters and mooks should suffice at first, expanding to a fuller range if successful.
Quote from: DrewYeah, I think this is something every popular system should try. A small selection of iconic character types, monsters and mooks should suffice at first, expanding to a fuller range if successful.
They did have minis for rifts. They were not prepainted though. The minis didnt do very well if I remember correctly. (Or maybe they only did a small run. I dont really remember which.)
Quote from: RoninThey did have minis for rifts. They were not prepainted though. The minis didnt do very well if I remember correctly. (Or maybe they only did a small run. I dont really remember which.)
Relatively cheap prepainted plastics are an entirely different proposition from unpainted metal figures, some of which may require assembly. The overlap between RPG fans and miniature hobbyists seems to be far smaller these days, and I think Wizard's strategy with the D&D and Star Wars lines filled the gap in a brilliantly user-friendly fashion. It'd be nice to see other companies try the same tactic.
You are all underestimating the ultimate tremendousness that RIFTS toys would be.
It´s not lame Orcs or often seen TIE Fighters.
It would be utterly batshit gunporncrazyawesomelooney stuff that has a double serving of badassery on top of it.
Imagine, "Baron von Badass" as a prepainted fig!!
If Rifts had figures on the same scale as the D&D and Star Wars line with comparable quality I would buy some even if I had no intention of ever playing Rifts. The skullhead tank with spider legs on my table? Sign me up!
Quote from: DrewRelatively cheap prepainted plastics are an entirely different proposition from unpainted metal figures, some of which may require assembly. The overlap between RPG fans and miniature hobbyists seems to be far smaller these days, and I think Wizard's strategy with the D&D and Star Wars lines filled the gap in a brilliantly user-friendly fashion. It'd be nice to see other companies try the same tactic.
And Palladium games is, in theory anyway, one of the few game companies out there big enough to give it a go and make some money out of it.
I'm not sure where the money bar is exactly on this, but given Rackham's entry to the feild (AT-43 is reasonably awesome enough for a props here) and the whole clix phenomenon (who were Wizkids exactly before that shit????), it can't be that high.
Quote from: jrientsI'd add a bigass motherfuckin' dungeon, sitting right where Washington, DC used to be. It would have 666 levels. The fat book devoted to it would have new monsters, a few sample levels, and gigantic random dungeon and monster charts. The boss monster on the last level would be Satan. Who is also a cyborg.
Jeff, we have that already. We call it
the Pentagon. Sheesh! What do they teach you guys in school these days? :D
-clash
Write it to provide the tools to the players and GM to develop the setting instead of the pick and choose what you like style it is now. It's presented as a Pandora's box of Kevin's ideas instead of a Pandora's box to frame and create your own ideas. It's one of the reasons I'd choose to run Rifts with Heroes Unlimited and Palladium Fantasy instead. More leeway for both the players and the GM to create the setting in their image.
I gues I wouldn't change a thing. I think the RIFTS is a fucked-up mess, but it's a glorious fucked-up mess. It was the first proper campaign I ever ran and it will be the next campaign I run, to the delight of my players.
RIFTS is all about letting that crazy-ass setting ride and enjoying the ridiculous explosions along the way. I'm more than willing to let that happen. If you can't handle RIFTS turning into this scenario after a few sessions:
:verkill:
I reccomend finding another game.