Quote from: Jeffrey Straszheim;339135GeekEclectic,

Honestly, man, it sounds like you're just in a lousy game with a pretty lame GM.  You say you've talked to him, and he seems to be offering you nothing to help your having fun.  I mean, it isn't his job to kiss your ass or anything, but he should see that things aren't working for you.  If he was any good, he'd arrange things so that at least some of the encounters will make your character shine.

Also, it sounds like an all combat game.  I suspect that isn't what you want, right?

Are there other gaming groups in your area?  Is there any reason you have to stay in this game?

Good luck whatever you decide.

Truer words never written! The DM really needs to evaluate his players before the module ever sees light of day, and subsequently adjust accordingly. If the module is a fair challenge, the players will love it. If they feel like they are being punished for not min/maxing or predicting the best or most optimized build...something has gone terribly wrong.

Yeah, the challenges don't seem tailored to the skills the party actually possesses much at all . . . unless tailoring them to make the skills we actually have useless counts, but I don't think he's doing that on purpose. Just using the CR system hyperliterally.

And I agree with the "system mastery" statement way above. The few times I've played 3.x, I've noticed that picking the feats that seem good at the time(or make sense based on my character's actions) often turn out not to be all that great in the long run. I get locked out of a prestige class I'd have liked, can't qualify for the better higher-level feats because I forgot some prereq, stuff like that. I don't like having to research options a bunch of levels in advance to make sure I don't accidentally gimp myself with my choices. And multi-classing . . . ugh. It can go two ways -- some combinations are totally gimpy, and some can be totally godlike, yet all are treated the same way by the rules. My sub-par fighter/sorcerer will be treated the same as a Wizard/Loremaster/Archmage of the same level as far as the CR system is concerned. I had some fun with the research aspect way back in 2000 when 3E was first released, but as I get older I just don't have the time or desire to do so much work. I want to be able to just jump right in without worrying that I'm accidentally going to gimp myself down the road with one of my choices.

One good thing -- I have talked to my DM about feeling my character's not contributing much, and he's agreed to let me switch out a feat or two. If I can track down the sources -- official WotC D&D 3.5 products only(no 3rd party stuff). I'm trying to plan ahead better(I had a Cleric build, which I'd already researched, but someone else wanted to be the party cleric so I backed off, which is how I ended up with a rogue anyway, which I didn't plan for), but at the moment I'm just trying to get my guy better at fighting undead. 'cuz undead seem to be one of the biggest weak spots for rogues.

For the feats and weapon stones suggested above -- do you guys have references? I'm not limited to just the books the DM has, although I am limited to official WotC 3.5 products only. But if he doesn't have the book, I need to be able to get the official text for the feat/item/etc. I want to use to him.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;339065That's not what I'm talking about at all.

Then what is the problem?

Too many deadly encounters? You can't have the special toy you want? You're exploring a place filled with undead so your rogue isn't a special snowflake often enough?

That's what I'm getting from this thread: "Oooo, the game isn't giving my enough spotlight time!"

And y'know, maybe that's a fair criticism, but without hearing the referee's take on the game, or another player's perspective, again, I'm not sure either the rules or the referee are really at fault here.

Quote from: The Shaman;339757Then what is the problem?

Not what you said. Yes, I expect enemies who draw weapons to try to kill us with said weapons. That's, like, duh. What it is is that either they are too good at it for their CR(like I said, without a few DEMs we would have experienced TPK a few times already, and we're only level 3), or we're not good enough at it for our CL. One or the other or possibly both. I dunno. I just don't like having members of the party almost die(occasionally actually dying) every single battle. It doesn't feel very heroic when the DM has to bail us out so often and so early in the game. I've always thought D&D was supposed to be somewhat heroic. Scraping by by the skin of your teeth(and occasional DM NPC intervention) is more gritty.

QuoteToo many deadly encounters?

Yep.

QuoteYou can't have the special toy you want?

I don't actually care about the toy itself. I just want the fights to be somewhat tailored to the kind of party members we actually have. But since that's not happening, I was trying to tailor my equipment to the kind of stuff I knew we were about to face. And as I said, I don't have the books, so I had no idea a holy weapon was so expensive and overpowered when I asked for it. I could just tell from the name holy = good vs. undead.

QuoteYou're exploring a place filled with undead so your rogue isn't a special snowflake often enough?

I can't sneak attack. A lot of the terrain makes me unable to flank most of the time. My ranged weapons miss a lot and do paltry damage when they do hit(and undead, so piercing does half damage and no critical hit bonuses). Enemies of the "appropriate" CR apparently have a lot of HP.

QuoteThat's what I'm getting from this thread: "Oooo, the game isn't giving my enough spotlight time!"

No, I have plenty of spotlight time. I just suck in the combat parts. The other players don't do any better.

QuoteAnd y'know, maybe that's a fair criticism, but without hearing the referee's take on the game, or another player's perspective, again, I'm not sure either the rules or the referee are really at fault here.

Well, this is my rant thread, so whatever. If you can't judge accurately because it's just me, well, don't. I won't hold it against you.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;339768Well, this is my rant thread, so whatever. If you can't judge accurately because it's just me, well, don't. I won't hold it against you.

The intreweb is not the most forgiving medium - I find it challenging sometimes to really get the whole picture from a couple of posts on message board. Thanks for taking the time to expand on your earlier posts, and good luck wth the game.

Geek, tell us about your character. You're saying that he's a 3rd-level Elven Rogue? Okay....this is what I'll tell you to do.

(1.) Pick some feats that are appropriate for your character's theme and personae. Do you want a guy distantly related to the fey, or a swashbuckling-type character, or a smooth-talking dude, or an awesome sniper, or what? The feat system will let you create many of the concepts you like, but you need to have a concept in the first place. What is your character concept?

(2.) If you're fighting undead, ask the DM if you can grab the variant class feature for Rogues called Death's Ruin from The Complete Champion (an official WoTC product). This enables you to Sneak Attack undead for half damage, and you only have to trade in your Trap Sense ability. Remember...this is not a feat, but merely an alternate class ability for the Rogue. :pundit:

(3.) You mentioned fighting undead that are resistant to piercing attacks, so get some bludgeoning and slashing weapons, and use them when necessary. When fighting Skeletons, use a sling (bludgeoning) for ranged attacks...and use either a heavy mace (bludgeoning) or morningstar (also bludgeoning) for melee attacks.

When fighting zombies, use either a dagger or a sickle. These two are slashing weapons, and thus can be used against Zombies to full effect. You are proficient with all of these weapons, and they're cheap, so use them when you have to. You can use your rapier when facing more normal opponents.

(4.) You want to slow your opponents down, and you can do this if you're willing to spend a small amount of gold. You don't need uber-powerful magic items to do this. Purchase a bunch of caltrops, tindertwigs, and flasks of oil. These items will likely not kill your opponents, but if you use them, you may succeed in slowing them down.

(5.) Tell us what skills and feats your character has. Two characters of the same race and class can be completely different based upon skill and feat selection, so we still don't really know too much about your guy. Please enlighten us.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;339987When fighting zombies, use either a dagger or a sickle. These two are slashing weapons, and thus can be used against Zombies to full effect

He can do better than that, he's an elf, he can use a longsword.

Well, Weapon Finesse might come into it, but zombies have crap AC anyway, unless your DM is putting them in full plate, which sounds sort of likely.

Quote from: Imp;340000He can do better than that, he's an elf, he can use a longsword.

Well, Weapon Finesse might come into it, but zombies have crap AC anyway, unless your DM is putting them in full plate, which sounds sort of likely.

Thanks. I forgot that Elves get free Martial Weapon Proficiency in longswords, and longswords are slashing weapons. Much obliged.

We hit level 4. These are his stats as of now:
Elf Rog 4
STR 8
DEX 18
CON 10
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 13

My equipment:
Shortbow
Holy Rapier(2d6 holy damage, 3d6 if used against something evil). It's not +1, though I do get a +1 to hit for being masterwork.
Returning Throwing Axe(if not for the weak damage, exacerbated by my low strength, I'd totally think about replacing my bow w/ it -- I hate keeping track of ammo).
Chain Shirt
Bucker w/ DR 1/-
Amulet of Dragonflight(1 hr/day, doesn't have to be used all at once)
Ring of Protection +1

Feats:
Combat Reflexes
Weapon Finesse
. . . I think I'm supposed to have 3 feats now, but I'm not sure. I only have 2 written down.

Skills(ranks/total including bonuses):
Balance 5/11
Disable Device 7/9
Gather Information 6/7
Hide 6/10
Jump 5/6 (mainly for the bonus to tumble, 'cuz tumble is sooooooo useful for flanking safely)
Move Silently 7/11
Open Lock 7/11
Search 7/11
Spot 6/8
Tumble 7/13
Use Magic Device 7/8

Equipment-wise, I'm pretty happy now. My character has been at least somewhat useful in the last couple fights we got in.

Feat-wise, I dunno. The weapon finesse is kind of necessary since my STR is so low. I keep forgetting about the combat reflexes, though, and my note on my charsheet doesn't actually tell me what it does.

I think I want to switch out Trap Sense for that Death thingie, 'cuz my DM loves undead. One Q, though -- does it only replace the Trap Sense, or do I also have to give up the "Trap Finding" that lets me find traps of DC 20 and higher? If the former, rock! If the latter, I'll have to think over it some more 'cuz I'm sure we'll come across traps w/ high DCs eventually.

I know some skills are more useful than others, or don't need as many ranks as other skills, stuff like that. But it's been forever since I had the 3E books or participated in a 3/3.5 discussion so I've long since forgotten.

Oh, and I was hoping for a swashbuckler kinda guy. Maneuverable(tumble for the win!), good sneak attacks, focuses on assisting others w/ flanking, stuff like that. We are allowed to multiclass pretty freely, though my DM likes to limit us to 1 PrC.

Is going straight rogue(at least until I hit a PrC) my best bet? Or are there some decent multiclass options? My DM likes knowledge checks, so something that gives me access to more knowledges than the one that's a class skill for rogues would be a nice bonus.

Your character is a great thief, but he's utter rubbish in a fight. My Battle Sorceror's Raven Familiar would only need some minor spell enhancement to give your Elf a serious fight, and he gets picked on by the DM and other players for being so anemic and weak. Heck, I could create 1st-level characters that would provide your Elven Rogue with a serious challenge.

Anyway, Death's Ruin has no effect on the Trapfinding Rogue ability, so it's a solid trade-in. It only affects Trap Sense, fortunately for you. That alternate Rogue ability is in the Complete Champion. It might help you...

Also, your Elf should have two feats, unless your DM allows you to take character flaws from Unearthed Arcana.

As for the best thing to do, I can't really answer that for you. Are you willing to sacrifice raw power in order to follow a character concept that intrigues you? Your character build isn't optimized for ass-kicking, which is fine...as long as you're aware of it. I deliberately created a couple of Halflings for 3.5 that focused on healing and stealth. That was their specialty, but they were also rubbish in a fight.

Reading your post feels odd. You don't want to keep track of ammunition, but then you create a character with ability scores optimally designed for ranged attacks, and most of the more efficient ranged weapons use ammo. There might be a way around it...

I can see your game is 25 point buy. This is how I would have spread out your points :

Str 12, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 12

Add your Elven ability modifiers, then once you hit 4th-level, you pump a point into Dexterity..

Str 12, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 12

There. You have a nice "Grey Mouser" type of character.

In any case, my suggestion is this. Multi-class as a Ranger/Rogue. The Ranger's Favored Enemy class ability works to full effect on undead, if you choose undead as an opponent, plus by 2nd-level, you can get either Rapid Shot or Two-Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat. The great thing about the Ranger is that they're also great at stealth.

If you decide to reach high levels in Ranger though, you might want to ignore some of my earlier advice, and crank up your Wisdom a little bit...:hmm:

If you're seeing a ton of big fights and little use for your skills you might go fighter/rogue or (if you have the splatbooks) swashbuckler/rogue and that really good feat in Complete Scoundrel that lets swashbuckler and rogue stack for SA and something else (I forget) that basically completely justifies swashbuckler as a class choice.

I don't like ranger/rogue much because you have to remember Wisdom when you do point buy, though it's pretty valid esp. as a scout I suppose. Fighter/rogue in a combat-centric game can cover stealth/scouting functions.


... oh crap but you're an elf. Does your DM give a shit about multiclassing restrictions?