TheRPGSite

Hi everyone,

Searched through the forums and couldn't find exactly what I was looking for. I am looking for some advice on what all this OSR is about. I have the general knowledge, some (probably right and wrong) assumptions, but I started gaming from AD&D 2ed which was non-oldschool.

So what I'm looking for is some advice how to 'unglue' myself from two decades of new-school gaming and make it right. Now I'm not looking for specifics, precise instructions but rather guidelines, an introduction.

So far my assumptions are:
- I run sandbox style campaign
- I stick to rulings adapted to specific situation, not rules
- I'm not creating a story, rather environment for story to unfold by player actions
- I'm not enforcing balance, I represent the world that is sometimes brutal and unfair
- There is a lot of randomness in the game world

Searched YouTube and the internet but all I found was scraps of information to collect and I thought since a lot of interest is in OSR, maybe there is some introduction somewhere.

Grab a copy of Philotomy's Musings, they probably do a better job of covering the basic assumptions than any other single source.
http://grey-elf.com/philotomy.pdf

It's more ranty and a lot of people don't like the tone, but if that doesn't bother you the Old School Primer is good introduction to the main differences between old and new school styles.
http://www.lulu.com/shop/matthew-finch/quick-primer-for-old-school-gaming/ebook/product-3159558.html

The Quick Primer for Old School gaming is pretty good - http://www.lulu.com/items/volume_63/3019000/3019374/1/print/3019374.pdf - praised by Wired at https://www.wired.com/2009/07/a-quick-primer-for-old-school-gaming/

For more advanced stuff you could check out/google
Ben Robbins' West Marches (was a 3e campaign, but OSR principles)
Rob Conley (Bat in the Attic) on sandboxing
Justin Alexander also has good articles on his website on megadungeons & sandbox play

I think the easiest way to start is
1. Get or make a sandbox such as Rob's Blackmarsh at the Swords & Wizardry SRD site - https://www.d20swsrd.com/
2. choose or make a 'home base' starter village such as Hommlet, set in the sandbox, with an Inn or similar start locale for the PCs
3. Place a bunch of adventures, such as the free ones from Basicfantasy.org, with most of the lower level ones closer to starter town & higher level further away
4. Provide rumours to several of the adventures at the Inn/start locale. 2 or 3 is good to start. Only giving 1 tends to train GM & players to expect linear campaign.
5. Be ready to GM whichever of the adventures the PCs seek out.
6. Go to #4. Eventually go to #2 as the PCs move away from starter town, and to #1 if they wander off the map.

I went through the documents, after a quick look it seems like exactly what I needed, many thanks Pat and S'mon. The 6 points of S'mon are something I had in mind, gonna give it a go soon. If any question arise, I will try here.

Quote from: kanePL;1087084I went through the documents, after a quick look it seems like exactly what I needed, many thanks Pat and S'mon. The 6 points of S'mon are something I had in mind, gonna give it a go soon. If any question arise, I will try here.

Happy gaming! :cool:

If you started out with AD&D 2E you aren't that far from the right place already. For me, most of the move to Old School seems to have come about with the creation of 3E and the yearning to roll back the clock to the days before that edition, which would include 2E.

The evolution went something like this: OD&D came out, then OD&D's supplements. Rules were scattered among too many books so AD&D was written to organize everything. AD&D is mostly OD&D plus supplements, with a bit more detail added. Then, as more AD&D supplements were added, the rules were rewritten to organize AD&D again with a bit more detail added and it was called 2E.

So, fundamentally 2E is a lot closer to OD&D than you might think. Pick up a PDF of OD&D and you'll see a lot of the core elements from 2E, only simpler. Take 2E and chop out the stat charts and replace them with some simplified stat bonuses. Chop out most of the info about classes and special abilities. Limit the spellslingers to a basic spell list, and remove spell components. Tell the players not to get hung up with the "letter of the law" in the rulebook, but instead to just try things and you will decide what works and what doesn't (or do a simple die roll without a chart to guide your decision; I do a generic high/low roll where high is positive results). In fact, try to GM with only a GM screen and monster book at the table, where you don't allow yourself or a player to look up anything during play.

This sort of thing will get you there in a hurry. As I said, you are practically there already. :D

BTW IMO the old school approach to gaming works fine with 2e AD&D, fine with 5e D&D, and pretty well with 3e D&D (3e has some issues around the extremely rapid power scaling and extreme caster dominance if PCs get to choose how often to fight). 4e is the only D&D edition that IME really cannot handle old school play - and I've tried, twice. If you are looking for an OSR system I would recommend Swords & Wizardry or one of its many derivatives, it's the most elegant iteration I think, but it's also fine to use whatever system you're familiar with, with very few exceptions.

I found this rather useful.  How To Get Started Playing Old-School D&D For Free:

https://dungeonspossums.blogspot.com/2019/02/how-to-get-started-playing-old-school-d.html

Quote from: kanePL;1087078Searched through the forums and couldn't find exactly what I was looking for. I am looking for some advice on what all this OSR is about. I have the general knowledge, some (probably right and wrong) assumptions, but I started gaming from AD&D 2ed which was non-oldschool.

The central thread of the OSR are the classic edition of D&D. It given life due to the discovery if you take the d20 SRD, strip it of the new mechanics, what life, is close to the various classic editions. Some writing elbow grease and you have a document that people can use to create new material that compatible with one of the classic editions (OD&D to AD&D 2nd edition).

Because all this is open content combined with the lower barriers to publication due to digital technology (like the Internet, PoD), ignited a renaissance in support for classic D&D, higher visibility, and most importantly new hobbyists or like you hobbyists returning to playing classic D&D.

Some say that the OSR is a style of play. That not quite true, it more accurate to say that some styles of play and methods of design are more common than other. But again the use of open content means that there are ton of alternative out there that use the mechanics of classic D&D in  very different ways. From the weird horror of Lamentation of the Flame Princess, to adapting it to different genres like White Star and science fiction.

The Old School Primer
One problem hobbyist have when starting out with classic D&D or one of the retro-clones that things like skills or universal task mechanics are not present. Yet if you read up on the various anecdotes and accounts of those involved now and back in the day, you find that campaign had PCs bartering, stealthing, and picking locking without any explicit mechanic.

Like all RPG, the fundamental mechanic of classic D&D is that the player describe what they are doing as their character then the referee describe the result. It turns out there is enough information about a classic D&D character that a referee can make a ruling. Some base it on level, other based on a characteristic, and so on.

This is summarized nicely in Matt Finch's A Quick Primer on Old School Gaming. Downloadable for free from here
https://froggodgames.com/frogs/product/a-quick-primer-for-old-school-gaming-pdf/

Of course there are variants and editions that do have skills like AD&D 2e proficiencies or my own Majestic Wilderlands (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/68864/The-Majestic-Wilderlands) so that still an option if that what you like.

Choices, Choices, and more choices
Unlike other niches of the hobby, there isn't a single dominant publisher or site within the OSR. Instead you have dozens if not hundreds of companies and individuals releasing material (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse.php?filters=45582_0_0_0_0).

So much so that the OSR can appear like a chameleon, looking one way when viewed from one angle, and other when viewed from the other. The only common thread you will find that most of it ties back to one of the classic editions in some way. But other things get roped in because of the interests of the participants.

In general the major retro-clones are

OD&D -> Swords & Wizardry
B/X D&D -> Labyrinth Lord
AD&D 1st-> OSRIC

However there are many other that don't fall neatly in an edition category like Lamentation of the Flame Princess or my own Majestic Wilderlands (nominally a Swords & Wizardry supplement)

AD&D 2nd edition doesn't have a dominate retro-clone there is For Gold and Glory.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/156530/For-Gold--Glory

However the originals are readily available as well
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse.php?filters=44830_0_0_0_0_0

Including Print
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/16868/Players-Handbook-Revised-2e?filters=44830_0_0_0_0_0

For Gold and Glory is very useful if you ever want to publish what you do with A&D 2nd edition.

Quote from: kanePL;1087078- I run sandbox style campaign

I can help with that having written a lot of material on the subject.
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/search/label/sandbox%20fantasy

I know mostly for my How to make a Fantasy Sandbox setting series of articles
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2009/08/how-to-make-fantasy-sandbox.html

It sets out how to methodically create and organize the material you need to handle PCs setting the direction of the campaign. A campaign with a more narrow focus probably doesn't need as elaborate of setup. For example the town dungeon setup that the original Greyhawk campaign started with.

Wrapping it up
Again the reason why there are common play styles leading to the idea that the OSR is meant to be played a certain way is because of the relatively lite nature of classic editions. However that doesn't mean you are beholden to that. And the wealth of material available including numerous example of how to create your own stuff, means that you will be well supported in coming up with your own way of playing your favorite edition or hybrid.

Hope this helps.

Some advice from my perspective:

1) Don't get overwhelmed.

Old-school D&D has a lot of competing systems and ideas. Most of these are very close to each other, so you can just pick one and stick with it (and perhaps later import a few rules from the others). Likewise, keep it simple and straightorward. A lot of ink has been spilled about how to do it properly, but in practice, old-school gaming is built on relatively simple, straightforward ideas. Philotomy's Musings and The Old-School Primer (and perhaps Wayne Rossi's The Original D&D Setting (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bx-230B8tqxvMmFrNGJFU3hGNnM/edit)) should get you started. What matters is to play actively and discover things yourself. There are a few things which I consider very important to the old-school experience, and I think they are easy to understand:

• The focus of play is on exploration and creative problem-solving. The game is about a dangerous world of mysteries. D&D's XP-for-GP advancement model should be the main driver and motivating force for the game.
• Player skill is essential. This is a contentious point, and people often take it to rhetorical extremes. What matters is to create open-ended challenges the players can solve with a bit of ingenuity and preparedness.
• Let things happen. Don't over-engineer your campaign. This is a major departure from the modern gaming mindset. Trust the dice to produce interesting results, and trust your players to prevail or fail by their own wits. Keep things moving, but don't try to enforce a pre-set vision on the game, not even an old-school one. Build on what the dice and your players give you, and let things develop. (One major exception is listed below).

2) Sell the style on its own merits.

People are invested in their games. Don't try to convert your players by the sword. Explain openly and clearly why this playstyle interests you, and what you would like to get out of it. It is best to "sell" old-school gaming as an easy-to-learn, action-heavy, perilous game style. People coming from a new-school background (and mostly CRPGs) often don't realise the freedom that gaming offers, since they have never experienced it. You may have to train this habit by giving them meaningful, interesting choices right from the beginning ("Do you choose the risky forest trail, or follow the main road?" "The hermit offers to tell you the secret - if you swear before the Graven Stone next to his house that you will not harm his dead love, Julianna."), and let them face interesting, clear consequences for it ("By the time you arrive by road, the orcs seem to have fortified their positions." "The village's foreman grunts, 'I don't trust those who would kill an innocent hermit. You will find no help here, be gone!'")

Some people will be opposed to playing old-school games, and some will never accept it as a legitimate way of having fun (I have sometimes found it easier to sell the idea to complete non-gamers than people "who were actually there"). This is something you may need to accept.

3) Make it your own.

It is not hard to build your own sandbox setting, dungeon, small town, etc. (If you are interested, I have written a post on building an easy, simple sandbox game on my blog: The Dirt Cheap Sandbox (http://beyondfomalhaut.blogspot.com/2016/09/blog-dirt-cheap-sandbox.html).) Read a few old-school supplements (or the TSR and particularly Judges Guild classics) to see how people have done it, but the best thing is to take those examples and then learn to do it yourself. Try to understand why certain rules work the way they do (Philotomy's Musings is a great start to appreciate old D&D on its own merits, and not just an exercise in nostalgia), but don't be aafraid to customise and develop them. We are all homebrewers, to an extent. These games all require you to do some of the work yourself, and part of the reward is exercising your own creativity. As it stood in the great, classic Wilderlands of High Fantasy:

QuoteAll within are merely inspiration for the active and pontifical judges of the guild. Please alter, illuminate, expand, modify, extrapolate, interpolate, shrink, and further manipulate all contained to suit the tenor of your campaign.

I think the DCC RPG goes through and explains how to run that kind of game even if the RPG system itself is only considered OSR adjacent.

There are some good systems in the OSR.  You can also do your own home brew easily.  However, I'd recommend buying or downloading at least one OSR rule set first, so you can learn from the efforts of others.  The ODD / Swords & Wizardry / White Box FMAG genre inspired me to do it.  It's fun writing and creating stuff!!!

Quote from: kanePL;1087078I started gaming from AD&D 2ed which was non-oldschool.

Personally, I consider any D&D prior to 3E to be old school.  So you're probably pretty close with your AD&D 2E roots.  The biggest thing I like to fall back on is "rulings, not rules".  As the DM, it's your job to adjudicate all the things that players come up with that aren't covered explicitly by the rules; and there's a lot of stuff that isn't covered in OSR rules.  So, you know, you figure out what the chances are for the character to do the "thing" the player is asking about, and you have the player roll.  Instead of, you know, "the TN for that is 15, make your skill roll", you'll be saying, "eh, I give it a 2 in 6 chance for your character, huck a d6!"  Or make an attribute check or a saving throw or whatever you think sounds appropriate for the "thing".

Just my $.02.

Old school is more a philosophy than a ruleset, and that's why people who like the ethos keep coming back to OD&D -- it captures that spirit in a purer form than any other edition. And of all the clones, Swords & Wizardry was the one most designed with those principles at the forefront. For rules, any ruleset up to (and even including) third edition work fine.

Quote from: Pat;1087149Old school is more a philosophy than a ruleset, and that's why people who like the ethos keep coming back to OD&D -- it captures that spirit in a purer form than any other edition. And of all the clones, Swords & Wizardry was the one most designed with those principles at the forefront. For rules, any ruleset up to (and even including) third edition work fine.

Well said.

Quote from: Pat;1087079Grab a copy of Philotomy's Musings, they probably do a better job of covering the basic assumptions than any other single source.
http://grey-elf.com/philotomy.pdf

It's more ranty and a lot of people don't like the tone, but if that doesn't bother you the Old School Primer is good introduction to the main differences between old and new school styles.
http://www.lulu.com/shop/matthew-finch/quick-primer-for-old-school-gaming/ebook/product-3159558.html

The "Primer" is very fine material. It really exposes the break points in so-called "old-school" and so-called "storygame".

Quote from: Pat;1087149Old school is more a philosophy than a ruleset, and that's why people who like the ethos keep coming back to OD&D -- it captures that spirit in a purer form than any other edition. And of all the clones, Swords & Wizardry was the one most designed with those principles at the forefront. For rules, any ruleset up to (and even including) third edition work fine.

How do we even call 3E "D&D"? It changed everything that mattered at a SYSTEMATIC level. I see 3E, 3.5, PF, 4E, & 5E as some other thing that fails to capture the true essence of BECMI + AD&D.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1087183How do we even call 3E "D&D"? It changed everything that mattered at a SYSTEMATIC level.

It still has classes, levels, the 6 stats, and fireballs. And dungeons.

3e certainly narrowed the scope of play and introduced huge class imbalances. That doesn't make it 'not D&D'.

The quantity and quality of some of this stuff everyone posted is amazing, I've read and printed ton of it.

Quote from: Crusader XI found this rather useful. How To Get Started Playing Old-School D&D For Free:

https://dungeonspossums.blogspot.com...-school-d.html

This is pure gold, amount of additional links and content is awesome.

Matt Finch's A Quick Primer on Old School Gaming - great for someone who has a little or no clue about OSR, for me Principia Apocrypha (https://lithyscaphe.blogspot.com/p/principia-apocrypha.html) seemed better.

estar - sir, the material about Sandbox creation and blog is great, added to favourites.

Quote from: finarvynIf you started out with AD&D 2E you aren't that far from the right place already.

Maybe, but just after the fall of socialism/communism in Poland role playing games were something extremely rare and niche, so when we discovered them we had no clue about how to play. We only could reference them to some games like Betrayal at Krondor and we were simulating stories. It was great, but far from what it was meant to be played. Then came 3rd edition of D&D which pushed away from old-school approach, so me & my group in Poland are noobs when it comes to old school and sandbox despite having over 20 years of gaming under our belts. But we are looking forward to it. After playing some 5th edition we came to conclusion it is so full of unimportant choices, it is so hard to die there and so easy to replace everything with a dice roll it's far from our tastes. And we started digging. Now we're playing Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea but already looking forward t buying and running more OSR systems.

Thanks everyone for great posts, I won't hesitate to post some insight or questions. I think I need to perform some kind of briefing to my players and tell them what's gonna be different in our playing style because they have the same amount of assumptions as I do I guess. The mentioned Principia Apocrypha has special section "for players" with some great advice.

Quote from: S'mon;1087228It still has classes, levels, the 6 stats, and fireballs. And dungeons.

3e certainly narrowed the scope of play and introduced huge class imbalances. That doesn't make it 'not D&D'.

Agreed.  There's a good game in there somewhere.

Quote from: Razor 007;1087278Agreed.  There's a good game in there somewhere.

E6, E8, and (at a stretch) E10 are all good. :D

Quote from: kanePL;1087078So far my assumptions are:
- I run sandbox style campaign
- I stick to rulings adapted to specific situation, not rules
- I'm not creating a story, rather environment for story to unfold by player actions
- I'm not enforcing balance, I represent the world that is sometimes brutal and unfair
- There is a lot of randomness in the game world

While there are voices on the internet who declare these concepts mandatory for "old school" play, many groups back in the actual day didn't adhere to some, most or all of those. As someone who gamed in the ancient times, I would declare those "rules" to be part of the modern OSR, moreso than how early games were played.

BTW, Kevin Crawford / Sine Nomine (Stars without Number, Godbound) is a huge proponent of "sandbox" campaigns and he wrote a great OSR-ish Swords & Sorcery RPG called "Exemplars & Eidolons" which has a great adventure generating ideas. And its free.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/144651/Exemplars--Eidolons

As for "rulings, not rules", the rulings need to be grounded in something and represent some consistency. Every "old school" DM is free to decide how to do "ability checks", but it helps the players if your method is consistent during the campaign. For instance, you may use D20 roll under, or 1D6 roll 1-2 + modifier, or even just eyeball it based on the numbers. Whatever method, the players should understand the How and Why so its not just DM fiat or "Mother May I" as is often quoted.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1087284While there are voices on the internet who declare these concepts mandatory for "old school" play, many groups back in the actual day didn't adhere to some, most or all of those. As someone who gamed in the ancient times, I would declare those "rules" to be part of the modern OSR, moreso than how early games were played.

*looks at thread title*

Quote from: Spinachcat;1087285BTW, Kevin Crawford / Sine Nomine (Stars without Number, Godbound) is a huge proponent of "sandbox" campaigns and he wrote a great OSR-ish Swords & Sorcery RPG called "Exemplars & Eidolons" which has a great adventure generating ideas. And its free.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/144651/Exemplars--Eidolons

I wish someone was running this so I could play it!! :cool:

Quote from: Theory of Games;1087183How do we even call 3E "D&D"? It changed everything that mattered at a SYSTEMATIC level. I see 3E, 3.5, PF, 4E, & 5E as some other thing that fails to capture the true essence of BECMI + AD&D.

Ha, making all the rolls go the same way and fixing AC so that as it improves it does not go down makes DnD not DnD.

Classic.

Quote from: kanePL;1087078How to switch to OSR?

Buy AD&D 1st Edition. Then play using only the rules as they're written.

Quote from: kanePL;1087078Hi everyone,

Searched through the forums and couldn't find exactly what I was looking for. I am looking for some advice on what all this OSR is about. I have the general knowledge, some (probably right and wrong) assumptions, but I started gaming from AD&D 2ed which was non-oldschool.

So what I'm looking for is some advice how to 'unglue' myself from two decades of new-school gaming and make it right. Now I'm not looking for specifics, precise instructions but rather guidelines, an introduction.

So far my assumptions are:
- I run sandbox style campaign
- I stick to rulings adapted to specific situation, not rules
- I'm not creating a story, rather environment for story to unfold by player actions
- I'm not enforcing balance, I represent the world that is sometimes brutal and unfair
- There is a lot of randomness in the game world

Searched YouTube and the internet but all I found was scraps of information to collect and I thought since a lot of interest is in OSR, maybe there is some introduction somewhere.

Based on your appraoch - you're already doing it, dude! And 2e is old school, too. Who says it isnt?

Quote from: Psikerlord;1087610And 2e is old school, too. Who says it isnt?

1e fans! :D

Quote from: Psikerlord;1087610Based on your appraoch - you're already doing it, dude! And 2e is old school, too. Who says it isnt?

(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/024/965/well.jpg)

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1087498Buy AD&D 1st Edition. Then play using only the rules as they're written.

Yeah, good luck with that...  It's awesome, but not due to its clarity.

Quote from: Razor 007;1087627Yeah, good luck with that...  It's awesome, but not due to its clarity.

That's why using them as you think they're written is the essence of old school.

The idea that the game can be reduced to precise, elegant direction(s) which a DM can entirely wrap their arms around - that is a decidedly recent phenomenon.

Quote from: S'mon on May 11, 2019, 01:07:58 PM

Quote from: Razor 007;1087278Agreed.  There's a good game in there somewhere.

E6, E8, and (at a stretch) E10 are all good. :D

E6 made a world of difference when I introduced it to my 3.x  group. Ever since then, I slowed my advancement down during the middle levels.

Quote from: Shasarak on May 12, 2019, 04:49:39 PM

Quote from: Theory of Games;1087183How do we even call 3E "D&D"? It changed everything that mattered at a SYSTEMATIC level. I see 3E, 3.5, PF, 4E, & 5E as some other thing that fails to capture the true essence of BECMI + AD&D.

Ha, making all the rolls go the same way and fixing AC so that as it improves it does not go down makes DnD not DnD.

Classic.

Old post, but FACTS are timeless.

3E was the Pinnacle of D&D, unrivalled by the old and unsurpassed by later editions. You could almost make the case that 3e wasn't D&D, but only cuz it was in a league of its own. 8)

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 11, 2021, 08:05:58 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 12, 2019, 04:49:39 PM

Quote from: Theory of Games;1087183How do we even call 3E "D&D"? It changed everything that mattered at a SYSTEMATIC level. I see 3E, 3.5, PF, 4E, & 5E as some other thing that fails to capture the true essence of BECMI + AD&D.

Ha, making all the rolls go the same way and fixing AC so that as it improves it does not go down makes DnD not DnD.

Classic.

Old post, but FACTS are timeless.

3E was the Pinnacle of D&D, unrivalled by the old and unsurpassed by later editions. You could almost make the case that 3e wasn't D&D, but only cuz it was in a league of its own. 8)

What are you smoking?

Clearly 4e was and is the superior game /s

Quote from: S'mon on May 11, 2019, 03:04:39 AM

Quote from: Theory of Games;1087183
How do we even call 3E "D&D"? It changed everything that mattered at a SYSTEMATIC level.

It still has classes, levels, the 6 stats, and fireballs. And dungeons.

3e certainly narrowed the scope of play and introduced huge class imbalances. That doesn't make it 'not D&D'.

Huge class imbalance is the essence of DnD so much so that the true not-DnD was celebrated for its class balance.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 11, 2021, 10:33:50 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 11, 2021, 08:05:58 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 12, 2019, 04:49:39 PM

Quote from: Theory of Games;1087183How do we even call 3E "D&D"? It changed everything that mattered at a SYSTEMATIC level. I see 3E, 3.5, PF, 4E, & 5E as some other thing that fails to capture the true essence of BECMI + AD&D.

Ha, making all the rolls go the same way and fixing AC so that as it improves it does not go down makes DnD not DnD.

Classic.

Old post, but FACTS are timeless.

3E was the Pinnacle of D&D, unrivalled by the old and unsurpassed by later editions. You could almost make the case that 3e wasn't D&D, but only cuz it was in a league of its own. 8)

What are you smoking?

Clearly 4e was and is the superior game /s

Just wait till 6e comes out. It's going to blow every other edition right out of the water!

In pure WOKENESS!  :o