Quote from: Crimhthan;983375That I would agree with because IMO scenario and module are the same thing, they are both pre-planned, pre-written adventures, neither of which has anything to do with a sandbox. Nothing wrong with someone playing a pre-written adventures, but you don't use those in a sandbox, a sandbox is about doing it yourself.

If I scatter location-based adventures about my sandbox, and the PCs encounter one of them, it ceases to be a sandbox?

This seems kinda dumb to me. I see no difference between including eg published Goblin Gulley in my sandbox and writing my own location with goblins in a gulley.

Quote from: Bren;983386Module, Scenario, Adventure are all roughly synonymous when referring to an RPG. Almost all of them include one or more locations. (And Brendan I know you already know this.)

I would agree. I was just ceding the point that scenario=location alone could be somewhat confusing.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;983392I would agree. I was just ceding the point that scenario=location alone could be somewhat confusing.

Sure. And I'm not surprised. I have observed in the past that you tend to be kinder, more polite, and to assume more goodwill on both sides of a discussion than I tend to do.

Quote from: Bren;983398Sure. And I'm not surprised. I have observed in the past that you tend to be kinder, more polite, and to assume more goodwill on both sides of a discussion than I tend to do.

Some people just don't fit in.

Quote from: Bren;983353Dynamic NPCs have plots, i.e. plans for how they intend to accomplish their goals. My campaigns have multiple dynamic NPCs. Ergo my campaigns, including all sandbox style campaigns, have plots.

Yes. In my experience, most gamers are pretty casual about their gaming so they have way less ego invested in the specific definitions of RPG terminology.

I'm referring to a GM's plot as opposed to a character plotting.

Quote from: Crimhthan;983315Novels have plots and Adventures Modules are scenario's.  Sandboxes have neither.

Hate to burst your bubble. But "And off to the north theres rumours of orcs gatering" and said orcs will gather and will cause trouble if the PCs or someone else doesnt intervene is a sort of plot. It is just the sort that the players may never actually interact with. But its out there. And thats one way sandboxes are run.

Quote from: S'mon;983391If I scatter location-based adventures about my sandbox, and the PCs encounter one of them, it ceases to be a sandbox?

This seems kinda dumb to me. I see no difference between including eg published Goblin Gulley in my sandbox and writing my own location with goblins in a gulley.

Sandbox is about DIY, if you use others materials, then you are automatically including all the railroads contained in that material and if you go back and re-write it to fix that then you might as well have done it yourself to begin with.

Quote from: Crimhthan;983405Sandbox is about DIY, if you use others materials, then you are automatically including all the railroads contained in that material and if you go back and re-write it to fix that then you might as well have done it yourself to begin with.

Okay this is a ridiculous argument. Sandbox is just a structure. You can do that with your own material, but you could also do it with published material designed for sandbox play. Granted, there is a strong DIY spirit to sandbox, because it it well suited to that. But I don't see how any non-DIY element automatically makes it not a sandbox.

Quote from: Crimhthan;983405Sandbox is about DIY, if you use others materials, then you are automatically including all the railroads contained in that material and if you go back and re-write it to fix that then you might as well have done it yourself to begin with.

Hmm, I didn't know the Wilderlands of High Fantasy had railroads in it... How about my Blackmoor campaigns that have used little more than the maps published in The First Fantasy Campaign and the DA series modules? How about Glorantha or Tekumel? What about TSR module B1?

For my Traveller gaming, I've read through a large number of Classic Traveller adventures, and while many have railroads, most can be mined for an interesting situation and some are even hex crawls.

Not all published modules/adventures/scenarios have railroad tracks, and many that have tracks have enough useful material that the tracks can be ignored.

Frank

Quote from: Dumarest;983402I'm referring to a GM's plot as opposed to a character plotting.

I don't really have plots. I have NPCs who have plots.

In a mission style adventure (scenario, module) I might loosely use the term "plot" as shorthand for what is going on in situation. For example, I ran a Star Wars adventure recently where the Rebel PCs went to a primitive planet to try to strike a trade deal with the locals. While they were doing that, an Imperial shuttle crash landed outside the palace where they were doing the negotiating. The Imperials fired on the locals who came to greet them killing many. I might describe the "plot" as "Green squad encounters strange native customs then helps the natives against vicious Imperials."

Describing that as the plot wouldn't prevent the PCs from deciding to desert from the Rebel Alliance and fly to Hutt Space and become Spice Smugglers or from deciding they weren't going to get a trade deal with the natives or from running off to hide in the forest leaving the locals to figure out what to do about the vicious Imperials in their lap. Which, without assistance from the PCs, would have played out a lot like the movie Zulu with the Imperials taking on the roles played by Stanley Baker and Michael Caine.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;983406Okay this is a ridiculous argument. Sandbox is just a structure. You can do that with your own material, but you could also do it with published material designed for sandbox play. Granted, there is a strong DIY spirit to sandbox, because it it well suited to that. But I don't see how any non-DIY element automatically makes it not a sandbox.

Presumably Crimthan is raising his own sheep to make his own parchment so he can scratch out his own maps using ink he made with his own blood and plants he cultivated in his garden. Because unless you are 100% DIY you aren't running a sandbox.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;983389You are assuming good faith and a desire for clarity rather than obtusification through quibbling over definitions.

I wasn't assuming good faith so much as extreme obtuseness. But requiring a sandbox to be DIY is so patently silly as to incline me to a an assumption of bad faith.

The first few pages of this thread are going into my useful folder. Differing opinions and ideas are always a great way to hone your game.

The argumentative silliness from one poster in the latter pages :confused:

Quote from: HorusArisen;983415The first few pages of this thread are going into my useful folder. Differing opinions and ideas are always a great way to hone your game.

The argumentative silliness from one poster in the latter pages :confused:

Once again, Crimpnuts' whole schtick is to muddy any discussion as much as he can.  Quibbling over definitions is one textbook way of doing this.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;983360But virtually every gamer I meet who doesn't spend substantial time in forums, when they use the word 'story' it doesn't mean what it means in a GNS context or literary course context. It often just means the stuff that happens around the characters.

I ran into this too when I first started posting to RPG forums after a long hiatus. Story to me was the stuff that happened to my character. The things they did and the things that they saw happening on the way.

It was kinda weird to be attacked for saying "story".

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;983422Once again, Crimpnuts' whole schtick is to muddy any discussion as much as he can.  Quibbling over definitions is one textbook way of doing this.

It starts off great, I was going to link my mates brother to it since he's a newbie GM.