Quote from: Crimhthan;983354I suppose we could go with words having non-standard meaning , but that is not helpful IMO.

Scenario: first standard definition is - a written outline of a movie, novel, or stage work giving details of the plot and individual scenes. "imagine the scenarios for four short stories" This means that the definition of "Any significant location on your sandbox's map where PCs might wish to venture is a scenario." is patently false.

The words story, plot, scenario and adventure all imply and all are pre-written scripting and that is anathema to the whole idea, reason and purpose of a sandbox. These four words all are linked to the to the idea of the railroad and have nothing to do with a sandbox.

A significant location on a sandbox map is just that a significant location, a place where the players may or may not know something about and a place where the players can choose to go or choose not to go, but there is no script for what happens when they get there. The reaction of NPCs or monsters has not been pre-written those things will be determined through play and not by following a scenario.

The problem is words carry multiple meanings all the time, and you are expected to understand the meaning through context. Pinning down terms with strict definitions for the purpose of discussing games, just leads to jargon. This is why when you take so many forum discussions offline into the real world people will often not know what you mean. But virtually every gamer I meet who doesn't spend substantial time in forums, when they use the word 'story' it doesn't mean what it means in a GNS context or literary course context. It often just means the stuff that happens around the characters.

I undetstand why people avoid using the word story, and honestly I avoid using it myself because I do think it can lead to confusion. But insisting people not use the word scenario in a sandbox, seems a bit pedantic to me. In a gaming context it means something totally different than in the definition you provide. At the end of the day, what people are actually doing at the table is a lot more important to me than the words they are using to describe it. As long as people are not intentionally expanding words well beyond their accepted conversational use, I don't see a problem with using 'scenario' the way folks are doing here.

Quote from: Zevious Zoquis;983287I think some people use the words "plots" and "scenarios" interchangeably.  They aren't really the same thing.

Plots are the main part of a scenario.


 

Quote from: Zevious Zoquis;983287A "location" that has a "story" (aka, a background or history) such as a haunted castle or a dungeon is not a "plot".  I think it's perfectly fine to say a good GM should have lots of "scenarios" pre-planned for the characters to either investigate or ignore at their discretion.  The word "plots" has more of a narrative implication and leads more into notions of railroading and narrative/story gaming.

A "location" that has a background or history (NOT a Story) such as a haunted castle or a dungeon is not a "plot" or a "scenario". It a location that has numerous possibilities for interaction with the PCs, none of which are scripted.

The word "plots," "scenarios," and "story" carry a narrative implication and leads directly into railroading and narrative/story gaming



 

Quote from: Zevious Zoquis;983287For me, if I were running a sandbox, once I've placed a location on the map, that's where that location exists in the world.  It ain't moving.  That applies to anything specifically related to that location as well...

Completely agree with this.

Quote from: Crimhthan;983362The word "plots," "scenarios," and "story" carry a narrative implication and leads directly into railroading and narrative/story gaming
.

I think the problem is mainly one of equivocation. If people use them to equivocate, I point it out and there isn't ever a problem with railroading as a result. If someone uses scenario to mean location, plot to mean an NPCs goal or plan, or story to mean stuff happening in the campaign, it is usually pretty obvious to me what they mean, and we can have a discussion without any issue. Debating the minutiae around the language, I think just bogs down the discussion.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;983360The problem is words carry multiple meanings all the time, and you are expected to understand the meaning through context. Pinning down terms with strict definitions for the purpose of discussing games, just leads to jargon. This is why when you take so many forum discussions offline into the real world people will often not know what you mean. But virtually every gamer I meet who doesn't spend substantial time in forums, when they use the word 'story' it doesn't mean what it means in a GNS context or literary course context. It often just means the stuff that happens around the characters.

I undetstand why people avoid using the word story, and honestly I avoid using it myself because I do think it can lead to confusion. But insisting people not use the word scenario in a sandbox, seems a bit pedantic to me. In a gaming context it means something totally different than in the definition you provide. At the end of the day, what people are actually doing at the table is a lot more important to me than the words they are using to describe it. As long as people are not intentionally expanding words well beyond their accepted conversational use, I don't see a problem with using 'scenario' the way folks are doing here.

Then I suppose I should just settle for "when I use the word "scenario" I am not using it to mean the same thing the rest of you are, in my sandbox there are no scripts". Because almost all of you are using scenario to mean something that is pre-scripted.

Quote from: Crimhthan;983359Dynamic NPCs have "lives", not "plots". "Plots" are fixed with no options as in a "plot" everything is scripted. "Lives" not "plots" means that all of their decisions and reactions to the PCs and their subsequent actions are fluid and they could go several different ways not just one pre-determined way.

Plot, like the vast majority of all words in the English language has more than one meaning. Context is required to discern which of the various meanings applies in any particular sentence. If you can't or won't use context to figure out which meaning applies then we aren't going to be able to have a meaningful conversation.

Quote from: Crimhthan;983364Then I suppose I should just settle for "when I use the word "scenario" I am not using it to mean the same thing the rest of you are, in my sandbox there are no scripts". Because almost all of you are using scenario to mean something that is pre-scripted.

I am a little late to the scenario discussion so to be fair, the way I use that word is usually a kind of catch all for anything from an adventure to a situation or location with interesting things going on. If the players go to a kingdom and it is in the middle of a civil war with factions and intrigue, that might be a scenario in my mind. And there could be many scenarios within that environment. But again, I do use the word quite loosely.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;983363I think the problem is mainly one of equivocation. If people use them to equivocate, I point it out and there isn't ever a problem with railroading as a result. If someone uses scenario to mean location, plot to mean an NPCs goal or plan, or story to mean stuff happening in the campaign, it is usually pretty obvious to me what they mean, and we can have a discussion without any issue. Debating the minutiae around the language, I think just bogs down the discussion.

OK if you say so, but I have no idea how anyone made the leap from scenario to location. I have not been able to find anywhere that their definitions intersect.

https://www.powerthesaurus.org/location/synonyms - 518 synonyms for location and not one of them is scenario

https://www.powerthesaurus.org/scenario - 266 synonyms for scenario and not one of them is location.

If people are going to use brand new unique definitions for words that have not had that definitions ever before in any written dictionary, then they should write if up and publish it as Joe's Official RPG Dictionary, so that every time we say "What is the world is he talking about?" we would have a way to find out. Of course then we have a different discussion and that is why is Joe the one that get's to create these brand new never before existent definitions.

Quote from: Bren;983365Plot, like the vast majority of all words in the English language has more than one meaning. Context is required to discern which of the various meanings applies in any particular sentence. If you can't or won't use context to figure out which meaning applies then we aren't going to be able to have a meaningful conversation.

If you are going to use words outside the context of their normal definitions then it is going to make it hard to have a meaningful conversation. If you have not pre-determined what is going to happen, then you do not have a plot. If you are calling a plot the name for what happens when the players decide on the spur of the moment to go 200 miles north to the ruined Castle WhiteSkull instead of taking the job escorting the trade caravan east to an adjoining kingdom and you improvise and wing it, then don't be surprised when that confuses people.

Quote from: Crimhthan;983369OK if you say so, but I have no idea how anyone made the leap from scenario to location. I have not been able to find anywhere that their definitions intersect.

https://www.powerthesaurus.org/location/synonyms - 518 synonyms for location and not one of them is scenario

https://www.powerthesaurus.org/scenario - 266 synonyms for scenario and not one of them is location.

If people are going to use brand new unique definitions for words that have not had that definitions ever before in any written dictionary, then they should write if up and publish it as Joe's Official RPG Dictionary, so that every time we say "What is the world is he talking about?" we would have a way to find out. Of course then we have a different discussion and that is why is Joe the one that get's to create these brand new never before existent definitions.

I would probably agree that equating scenario with a pure location is not terribly clear. But someone throwing me a location based module and calling it a scenario is something I would understand immediately.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;983373I would probably agree that equating scenario with a pure location is not terribly clear. But someone throwing me a location based module and calling it a scenario is something I would understand immediately.

That I would agree with because IMO scenario and module are the same thing, they are both pre-planned, pre-written adventures, neither of which has anything to do with a sandbox. Nothing wrong with someone playing a pre-written adventures, but you don't use those in a sandbox, a sandbox is about doing it yourself.

Quote from: Crimhthan;983364Then I suppose I should just settle for "when I use the word "scenario" I am not using it to mean the same thing the rest of you are, in my sandbox there are no scripts". Because almost all of you are using scenario to mean something that is pre-scripted.

It's becoming increasingly clear that you don't really understand how the rest of us use words. Do you write your plot hooks down on paper? If yes, then OH NOES you are  scripting.

Many people in this thread use the word "scenario" to mean, not a script, but an invented situation with some specific parameters. Typically (since memory is fallible and all that) some of those parameters are written down. The fact that the parameters of the situation are written down do not imply that their is some required set of scripted activities that the PCs must perform. Let's look at an example. One scenario might be

The City of Reknown
The City of Renown is the capital city of a kingdom. The players (for whatever reason) are traveling towards the City of Renown. Obviously the scenario isn't of much interest to a group of players unless their PCs are likely to interact with the city. So we ignore all the other scenarios that may have been written down that have nothing to do with where the PCs are now and focus on one scenario that the PCs are likely to interact with in some way, shape, or form.

• In this scenario there are some details for the City of Renown possibly a map, city population, civic militia, and a write up for the Black Goat Tavern, an inn, and maybe a few shops.
• One parameter or detail related to the city is the plot by the evil Duke to replace King Charles (who lives in the capital city) with a magically created simulcra so that the Iron Duke can take over the kingdom as the puppeteer behind controlling the "king."
• Other details include stats for the Iron Duke, his guards, his mage Graybeard, and the simulacra. Timing and what additional components are still required for Graybeard to cast the spell creating the simulacra. One key component is something from the King's person e.g. hair, nail clippings, blood, or skin. Also stats for the King Charles and the Royal Guards.
• One complicating factor (detail or parameter remember words have more than one meaning) is the presence outside the City of Renown of the Masked Avenger who wants to get his revenge against the evil Iron Duke. The Masked Avenger is masked to hide his true identify since he was once Count D'athos a nobleman the evil Duke had framed for treason. Count D'athos is thought to have died in the royal island prison known as Citadel of Doom. Stats included for the Masked Avenger and his loyal band of merry brigands.

Other parameters might be plot hooks like

• Reward posters, "dead or alive," for the Masked Avenger posted outside the taverns in every village surrounding the city that the PC are traveling towards. [They might decide to get the reward, join the Masked Avenger, or ignore the hook.]
• A damsel in distress, one of the Queen's ladies-in-waiting whose cries for help are overheard by the PCs as they ride along the road towards the city. [They might decide to rescue the damsel, take her away from her captors and sell her into slavery, or ride on ignoring her cries for help.] I could go on to specify who the damsel's captors are and why they captured her e.g.
• They are agents of the Duke who want to eliminate her because she saw one of the King's Servants gather up and remove hair and nail clippings from the King.
• They are agents of the Duke who want to take her captive because the Duke has fallen in lust with her.
• They are mercenaries who have been hired to kidnap her because a foreign prince has fallen in love with her.
• They are the Masked Avenger's men who are trying to bring her to their leader because the damsel is the fiance of the long lost Count D'Athos.
• Or I might just decide to keep all four of the above explanations in my write up and just roll 1D4 if the PCs decide to respond to her cries of distress.
• Hiring notices in the city posted by the Iron Duke for mercenaries. [They might decide to get hired, decide to look into why the Duke needs mercenaries, or just ignore the notice.
• If the PCs do anything demonstrate they have mad skilz (or if they are already well known for such mad skilz) the Queen will send one of her ladies-in-waiting or her guard captain (whichever is more appropriate) to covertly talk to the PCs to see if they can be recruited. Unlike her husband the naive King Charles, Queen Isabeau is suspicious of the Iron Duke and wants to obtain some highly skilled bodyguards to quietly protect the king from mundane assassins or magical attack.

The PCs may be drawn into the Duke's plot, either to help the Duke or to thwart him. They may be drawn into the Masked Avenger's quest for revenge. They might rescue the damsel. Or they might just buy some exotic goods and spend the rest of their money on booze, drugs, and whores in the City of Renown before taking passage across the Indigo Sea to the Free Cities of Cromar.

While there is a scenario (possibly more than one) there is no script and the only story is what happens in play, or more specifically what people retell about what happens in play.

Quote from: Crimhthan;983370If you are going to use words outside the context of their normal definitions then it is going to make it hard to have a meaningful conversation. If you have not pre-determined what is going to happen, then you do not have a plot. If you are calling a plot the name for what happens when the players decide on the spur of the moment to go 200 miles north to the ruined Castle WhiteSkull instead of taking the job escorting the trade caravan east to an adjoining kingdom and you improvise and wing it, then don't be surprised when that confuses people.

The villain has a plot. Surely you have heard the phrase "the villain's plot" somewhere, sometime in life. I am calling a plot what is typically called a plot when talking about the things people, especially imaginary people, plan to enact. Barring unforeseen events (which in RPGs is often actions by or in reaction to things the PCs do), as the GM I probably do know what will happen when the villain attempts to put his plot in action. It's still not a script though.

Plot has more than one definition. Get used to that.

Quote from: Crimhthan;983375That I would agree with because IMO scenario and module are the same thing, they are both pre-planned, pre-written adventures, neither of which has anything to do with a sandbox. Nothing wrong with someone playing a pre-written adventures, but you don't use those in a sandbox, a sandbox is about doing it yourself.

I don't know. I think if you have a module that is little more than a location description, NPCs, information on stuff that might be going on there and sources of conflict, that would all fit into a sandbox pretty easy and could still be called a scenario. If that isn't a sandbox anymore to you, that is fine. I am not worried about whether others regard my style of play as pure sandbox.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;983373I would probably agree that equating scenario with a pure location is not terribly clear. But someone throwing me a location based module and calling it a scenario is something I would understand immediately.

Module, Scenario, Adventure are all roughly synonymous when referring to an RPG. Almost all of them include one or more locations. (And Brendan I know you already know this.)

Quote from: Bren;983382It's becoming increasingly clear that you don't really understand how the rest of us use words. Do you write your plot hooks down on paper? If yes, then OH NOES you are  scripting.

You are assuming good faith and a desire for clarity rather than obtusification through quibbling over definitions.