So I've been seeing this making the ad rounds on facebook.
"How to GM Romance" and the art for it is exactly what you would expect for present day progressive standards.
But it made me take a closer look at the 'staff' that's putting this all together and all I could think is... Have any of these people actually been in a longterm committed relationship? Are any of them married?
What business do people who know nothing about real world healthy relationships have trying to 'teach' the rest of us how to run 'romance' in our tabletop games?
Which brings me to my next point.
Do you put romance in your own tabletop games?
When I was younger I did... but these days, in my 40s, married and a child of my own... I'm not here to be anyone's pretend girlfriend/boyfriend. I don't make it impossible but it's always going to be a minor part of my games with fade to black with most everything.
Our awesome Traveller GM asks us how much romance we want.
One character has a slow-burn romance with an NPC, who is a major part of that character's story.
My character was propositioned by an NPC. Our resident raised-on-a-deserted-asteroid Zhodani suggested the character procreate with the female, to get in her good favor for plot reasons. My character replied, and it became famous in our group, "I will not procreate with that female."
Everyone thought it was because my wife is in the group. I told them no, that's just this character. My backup character (heavy metal bagpipe player turned Space Marine, who is totally-not-based-on-Elvis) would have jumped on the opportunity. Literally.
No romance in my games. It's just that the in game experience is so inferior to the real life experience that there's no real point. I imagine other issues might arise as well, including too much focus on one player and making the other players uncomfortable
I'll include romance as a sub-plot (sub-game?) if a player wants it and doesn't mind me roleplaying the romantic NPC.
The only time I was concerned it would be weird was with a player who had a female elven archer in game romancing an elven hedge wizard while in real life she was a 5' skinny tomboyish lesbian and I'm a 6'2" overweight straight neck beard - everything went OK though. Any time a sexual scene would logically happen, we just "faded to black".
I use romance between NPCs quite frequently for depth and generating conflicts. Romance involving PCs is something I'd like to see work, but the people I play with are usually against it, and the results tend range between disastrous and just cringe.
I think this is because more than any other topic, when romance comes up roleplaying goes out the window.
Romances between PCs tend to be driven by out character relationships, and when they aren't players feel the need to script them in advance, and then play them out according to trite Hollywood (or in extreme cases porno) stereotypes.
Romance between NPCs and PCs tends to be less awful, but even then it's too often driven by the player's ego or wish fulfillment.
I think it only works if it grows organically out of people just roleplaying their characters.
I can totally see it working as, say, Arthurian Romance. As in, you don't go into the details of the relationships, but the knights do want to save damsels in distress and in some cases marry them.
There's been very few cases, always player initiated, where someone has "romanced" an NPC in my 40+ years of gaming. I've never had intra-party romances. Quite frankly, I don't see the point.
Quote from: Orphan81 on July 12, 2024, 12:42:40 PMSo I've been seeing this making the ad rounds on facebook.
"How to GM Romance" and the art for it is exactly what you would expect for present day progressive standards.
But it made me take a closer look at the 'staff' that's putting this all together and all I could think is... Have any of these people actually been in a longterm committed relationship? Are any of them married?
What business do people who know nothing about real world healthy relationships have trying to 'teach' the rest of us how to run 'romance' in our tabletop games?
Which brings me to my next point.
Do you put romance in your own tabletop games?
When I was younger I did... but these days, in my 40s, married and a child of my own... I'm not here to be anyone's pretend girlfriend/boyfriend. I don't make it impossible but it's always going to be a minor part of my games with fade to black with most everything.
Not as something interactive between player characters and NPCS or between PCs.
I do occasionally put romance in as a part of an adventure. As the motivation for an NPC. An old TNG episode I often think about is The Outrageous Okona. (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Outrageous_Okona_(episode)) About a scoundrel who (spoilers for an old TNG episode) acts as courier for two young lovers from feuding planets/factions. It's a janky episode, like a lot of early TNG, but the general setup is (IMO) a great template for how a romance can generate a scenario full of adventure hooks.
In my current game I'm having fun with flirty conversation and a romantic triangle with some comedy (one of the PCs has a tail with a mind of its own.) Will it ever get to fade to black time? Not sure if any of the characters want to go there yet.
[edit for typo]
Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 12, 2024, 04:25:33 PMThere's been very few cases, always player initiated, where someone has "romanced" an NPC in my 40+ years of gaming. I've never had intra-party romances. Quite frankly, I don't see the point.
Greetings!
My friend, I forgot what "Intra" means. So, what is an "Intra-Party Romance?"
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I have had a rare few players want it and in my younger years as a player delved into it. But it has this tendency of going awry and not in a story way or a good way. So now-a-days I tend to be neutral on it.
I will give it a go if a pitch really interests me. But more oft than not its just not worth it.
Intra just means inside or within a group or collection. So, PC to PC romance.
Quote from: Orphan81 on July 12, 2024, 12:42:40 PMSo I've been seeing this making the ad rounds on facebook.
"How to GM Romance" and the art for it is exactly what you would expect for present day progressive standards.
But it made me take a closer look at the 'staff' that's putting this all together and all I could think is... Have any of these people actually been in a longterm committed relationship? Are any of them married?
What business do people who know nothing about real world healthy relationships have trying to 'teach' the rest of us how to run 'romance' in our tabletop games?
Which brings me to my next point.
Do you put romance in your own tabletop games?
When I was younger I did... but these days, in my 40s, married and a child of my own... I'm not here to be anyone's pretend girlfriend/boyfriend. I don't make it impossible but it's always going to be a minor part of my games with fade to black with most everything.
Hey there! I'm the Project Lead for
How To GM Romance. Some info about me:
- Married 15 years with a congenial split, 3 loving children.
- Currently in a happy 2-year long lesbian relationship with a woman so hot her DMs are blowing up every day for no reason.
- I've run over 900 professional tabletop games with 130+ 5-star reviews.
- I host a blog and podcast that is one of the most popular in the industry for both pro GMs and game designers.
- I've hosted several hundred pro GMs on workshops to improve their business techniques, including romance.
- I charge $150-300/hr for consulting and people routinely pay it, because the value is immense.
I would say I'm very qualified. But not only that - my team is assembled of the most skilled professionals in both the design and performance side of our industry. We have a lot to impart to the average person.
Just as our ad copy says on our Backer Kit campaign, not every relationship should be railroaded. This book is a toolbox for GMs to help enable the players they have at their table who are interested in that type of roleplay. This can be as subtle or overt as desired by all parties, with consent.
You're absolutely right: It's not our business to tell you how to run your table. But it speaks volumes that you feel condescended to and threatened by queers so terribly that you had to make a topic about us.
Quote from: zircher on July 12, 2024, 08:20:09 PMIntra just means inside or within a group or collection. So, PC to PC romance.
Greetings!
Thank you, Zircher!
Yeah, as for *Romance in the game*--in one of my game groups, I have four women players, and two men players. The women really do push for lots of *Romance* in the game. I try and keep a balancing act going with blood and fighting--but in this particular game group, yeah, the guys have to endure extra-long sessions of the women going shopping, going to masquerade balls, and getting their freak on with various lover boys. The women just love the whole romantic relationship soap-opera thing. The *Storytelling*, the friendships, the romance, the crazy sex, the betrayals, the fucked up enemies, the secrets, the backstabbing, the rumour mongering, character assassination, getting pregnant, drama with the parents and family--the women absolutely love a steady diet of this stuff, each and every week. The women's passion and excitement for this kind of thing is endless.
I have serious doubts about the cherished male assumption that women are naturally good, sweet, non-violent and moral. *Laughing*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on July 12, 2024, 08:46:07 PMI have serious doubts about the cherished male assumption that women are naturally good, sweet, non-violent and moral.
Does any man think that? Maybe it's a generational thing, but no male I've know between the ages of 14 and 45 would make that assumption 🤣
Quote from: ForgottenF on July 12, 2024, 08:55:33 PMQuote from: SHARK on July 12, 2024, 08:46:07 PMI have serious doubts about the cherished male assumption that women are naturally good, sweet, non-violent and moral.
Does any man think that? Maybe it's a generational thing, but no male I've know between the ages of 14 and 45 would make that assumption 🤣
Only 1 problem with that statement. The "and 45" I am over 50 years old and LONG ago I learned (the hard way oh so many times) that is a very flawed assumption.
Now the sad part is that I have 2 mid teen daughters .... right now they are quiet, sheltered, naive even. I keep waiting for that evil bent twisted female mind they inherited from their mother (yes I do love her but I do also know she is NOT natural good sweet et al) to break through !
Quote from: is friday on July 12, 2024, 08:41:49 PMYou're absolutely right: It's not our business to tell you how to run your table. But it speaks volumes that you feel condescended to and threatened by queers so terribly that you had to make a topic about us.
That's what you got out of his post? Really? The victim mentality is real...
Quote from: ForgottenF on July 12, 2024, 08:55:33 PMQuote from: SHARK on July 12, 2024, 08:46:07 PMI have serious doubts about the cherished male assumption that women are naturally good, sweet, non-violent and moral.
Does any man think that? Maybe it's a generational thing, but no male I've know between the ages of 14 and 45 would make that assumption 🤣
I've overheard some stuff I probably shouldn't have. Locker-room is tame as fuck compared to what women talk about.
To address the original point, "it depends". I ran a Star Wars game that had A LOT of romance, mainly the scoundrel PC getting involved with some twilek street urchin. It made total sense in the context of the game, so I just ran with it. I personally had a bard that married an elf princess who was an aspiring wizard because the PC thought he could exploit her abilities and wealth. A classic tale! But, again, it made sense within what the game was trying to do. Pushing this sort of crap is doomed to failure if it's a regular RPG. If the players want to pursue relationships, sure, whatever, I roll with it and do whatever seems logical, but I'd never force them into a situation that required playing out romantic nonsense. I also think the "fade to black" for bedroom stuff is the way to roll. I don't wanna talk about that crap as a DM, nor as a player, so just let the gaps fill in when my PC has a pregnant wife. Some people want to RP the sex part, and I'd honestly suggest they need help.
Quote from: is friday on July 12, 2024, 08:41:49 PMHey there! I'm the Project Lead for How To GM Romance. Some info about me:
Married 15 years with a congenial split, 3 loving children.
Currently in a happy 2-year long lesbian relationship with a woman so hot her DMs are blowing up every day for no reason.
I've run over 900 professional tabletop games with 130+ 5-star reviews.
I host a blog and podcast that is one of the most popular in the industry for both pro GMs and game designers.
I've hosted several hundred pro GMs on workshops to improve their business techniques, including romance.
I charge $150-300/hr for consulting and people routinely pay it, because the value is immense.
I would say I'm very qualified. But not only that - my team is assembled of the most skilled professionals in both the design and performance side of our industry. We have a lot to impart to the average person.
Just as our ad copy says on our Backer Kit campaign, not every relationship should be railroaded. This book is a toolbox for GMs to help enable the players they have at their table who are interested in that type of roleplay. This can be as subtle or overt as desired by all parties, with consent.
You're absolutely right: It's not our business to tell you how to run your table. But it speaks volumes that you feel condescended to and threatened by queers so terribly that you had to make a topic about us.
Welcome to The Site!
Quote from: ForgottenF on July 12, 2024, 08:55:33 PMQuote from: SHARK on July 12, 2024, 08:46:07 PMI have serious doubts about the cherished male assumption that women are naturally good, sweet, non-violent and moral.
Does any man think that? Maybe it's a generational thing, but no male I've know between the ages of 14 and 45 would make that assumption 🤣
I did. When I was a young man. I bought into the "women are all innocent princesses" trope, and made excuses for bad female behavior. Which is in itself a kind of sexism, but as it favors women, I think it gets overlooked.
Quote from: Brad on July 12, 2024, 09:58:06 PMQuote from: is friday on July 12, 2024, 08:41:49 PMYou're absolutely right: It's not our business to tell you how to run your table. But it speaks volumes that you feel condescended to and threatened by queers so terribly that you had to make a topic about us.
That's what you got out of his post? Really? The victim mentality is real...
Quote from: ForgottenF on July 12, 2024, 08:55:33 PMQuote from: SHARK on July 12, 2024, 08:46:07 PMI have serious doubts about the cherished male assumption that women are naturally good, sweet, non-violent and moral.
Does any man think that? Maybe it's a generational thing, but no male I've know between the ages of 14 and 45 would make that assumption 🤣
I've overheard some stuff I probably shouldn't have. Locker-room is tame as fuck compared to what women talk about.
To address the original point, "it depends". I ran a Star Wars game that had A LOT of romance, mainly the scoundrel PC getting involved with some twilek street urchin. It made total sense in the context of the game, so I just ran with it. I personally had a bard that married an elf princess who was an aspiring wizard because the PC thought he could exploit her abilities and wealth. A classic tale! But, again, it made sense within what the game was trying to do. Pushing this sort of crap is doomed to failure if it's a regular RPG. If the players want to pursue relationships, sure, whatever, I roll with it and do whatever seems logical, but I'd never force them into a situation that required playing out romantic nonsense. I also think the "fade to black" for bedroom stuff is the way to roll. I don't wanna talk about that crap as a DM, nor as a player, so just let the gaps fill in when my PC has a pregnant wife. Some people want to RP the sex part, and I'd honestly suggest they need help.
Greetings!
*Laughing* Yeah, good stuff, Brad!
In my Thandor campaign with the women, I have this "Chaos Influence" Sub-system that I use, in addition to a grip of Urban events and Random tables. The women can play grab-ass and go shopping, and attend masquerade balls, and indulge their inner freaks just chomping to run wild--but only to a point. When they get too excessive with all the soap-opera and BS, and I and the other guys begin to get impatient--strange, Chaotic things start to happen. Fights and conflicts become increasingly violent and bloody, and more people start to die. The women have caught on to it gradually, and usually chirp, "We need to get back to the dungeon where it's safer!" *Laughing*
I turn the Urban Mayhem Dial up to 12, and dungeon-crawling starts to look mighty attractive again! *Laughing*
That is how I put my "DM Thumb" on the scale and keep the women's antics in check.
I seek to accommodate the women, to a point. Their focus and play-styles are distinctly different, but also overlapping, with what the men are typically interested in. On the more male-centric side of things, having the women players along is generally positive overall, as they do tend to roleplay very well, and well, they also tend towards taking the game and the fantasy world seriously. Initially, the men are sometimes skeptical, but over time, they also appreciate the approaches that women players bring to the game as a whole, and to my table in particular. Romance is a thing that women are intensely interested in--whether they are 16 or 50, Romance and drama are attractions that keep them rivetted. So, I have had to make allowances for more time for character development, backgrounds, family relationships, and all the drama and intrigue that goes along with romance and relationships. On a regular basis, I have had to spend a few hours indulging the women, letting them...be women, and do women things. If I didn't do this, I think that the women would become emotionally frustrated and angry. They would feel like they are just upright, walking animals, killing and eating. Or something. You know how they can get. *Laughing*
I also occasionally add in juvenile elements of candy, weird, cute animals, brightly coloured clothing and toys and just junk that women like to collect and play with. For example, I have created a number of weird magic items just for the women players. Talking stuffed animals, water-skins that sing songs, Horse-Head Hair Brushes that whisper beauty routines to the owner when brushing her hair, and so on. Mostly weird junk and toys. You would be surprised by how much the women *treasure* these kinds of items! The women also seem to have a huge desire for silliness, dancing, laughing, and just cavorting around in meadows, getting drunk and shrieking.
An interesting observation, is that 45 and 50 year old women are just as attracted to all of this as 16 or 20 year old girls are. *Laughing*
The men are far more focused on training their henchmen, researching upcoming dungeon legends, hiring map-makers, buying equipment for war, and exploring the wilderness in preparation for launching military attacks, or jumping into dungeon complexes, killing and looting!
The differences can be very real. *Laughing*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Lurker on July 12, 2024, 09:48:57 PMQuote from: ForgottenF on July 12, 2024, 08:55:33 PMQuote from: SHARK on July 12, 2024, 08:46:07 PMI have serious doubts about the cherished male assumption that women are naturally good, sweet, non-violent and moral.
Does any man think that? Maybe it's a generational thing, but no male I've know between the ages of 14 and 45 would make that assumption 🤣
Only 1 problem with that statement. The "and 45" I am over 50 years old and LONG ago I learned (the hard way oh so many times) that is a very flawed assumption.
Now the sad part is that I have 2 mid teen daughters .... right now they are quiet, sheltered, naive even. I keep waiting for that evil bent twisted female mind they inherited from their mother (yes I do love her but I do also know she is NOT natural good sweet et al) to break through !
Greetings!
PREACH IT! *Laughing*
Yeah, my friend, you know that's right!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on July 12, 2024, 10:40:32 PMOn the more male-centric side of things, having the women players along is generally positive overall, as they do tend to roleplay very well, and well, they also tend towards taking the game and the fantasy world seriously. Initially, the men are sometimes skeptical, but over time, they also appreciate the approaches that women players bring to the game as a whole, and to my table in particular.
That's been my experience as well. The few women I've gotten the chance to play with have frequently been some of the most dedicated roleplayers I've had in my games. If they've had a flaw, it's usually in getting a little too into it and taking things that happen in the game too personally, but I'll still seek out female players when I can for that reason. Sadly, they often clash with the more beer-and-pretzels or jokey sensibilities of my male players.
Quote from: SHARK on July 12, 2024, 10:40:32 PMIn my Thandor campaign with the women, I have this "Chaos Influence" Sub-system that I use, in addition to a grip of Urban events and Random tables. The women can play grab-ass and go shopping, and attend masquerade balls, and indulge their inner freaks just chomping to run wild--but only to a point. When they get too excessive with all the soap-opera and BS, and I and the other guys begin to get impatient--strange, Chaotic things start to happen. Fights and conflicts become increasingly violent and bloody, and more people start to die. The women have caught on to it gradually, and usually chirp, "We need to get back to the dungeon where it's safer!" *Laughing*
That's hilarious!
Back to the dungeon, where it's safer! (LOL)
Quote from: ForgottenF on July 12, 2024, 11:00:00 PMQuote from: SHARK on July 12, 2024, 10:40:32 PMOn the more male-centric side of things, having the women players along is generally positive overall, as they do tend to roleplay very well, and well, they also tend towards taking the game and the fantasy world seriously. Initially, the men are sometimes skeptical, but over time, they also appreciate the approaches that women players bring to the game as a whole, and to my table in particular.
That's been my experience as well. The few women I've gotten the chance to play with have frequently been some of the most dedicated roleplayers I've had in my games. If they've had a flaw, it's usually in getting a little too into it and taking things that happen in the game too personally, but I'll still seek out female players when I can for that reason. Sadly, they often clash with the more beer-and-pretzels or jokey sensibilities of my male players.
Greetings!
Nice, ForgottenF! I totally agree. I know there is always some DM's out there that like to chirp about having a woman player that "plays just like the men do!" yah, yah, yah. Sure. In my experience though, there are typically very different approaches and play-styles between men and women.
And yes, women are very likely to really get into roleplaying their characters, and taking the game world very seriously. Typically, to a higher degree than most men players. And like you said, there can be some real challenges dealing with what I consider a woman player that is a serious roleplayer--and the often embraced jokey, "Beer and Pretzel" approach favoured by many men players.
I have had more than one occasion, where different women players at my table have been so overwhelmed with emotions with their characters and roleplaying, that they have broken down into serious crying, during episodes when a henchman has died, or a friend or lover. Ot when the player's pet baby dinosaur gets ran through with enemy spears and killed--oh man. I've had women screaming at me, *LOUD*. Then, the bloodlust really comes to the surface. Morality? The church? Forget all that. The women want their enemies crucified, slowly, while they watch and sip wine, enjoying every moment. Or I've had a friend of a woman player...become involved romantically with her character's lover, while they were studying ancient manuscripts at some Wizard's Tower, or in a Rusalka's Grotto. The emotions go absolutely crazy!
Poison, torture chambers, killing the enemy woman's family, oh yeah. All that gets placed on the table. I've seen them E-mail me their elaborate plans, tell me they were consumed while at work daydreaming about how their character needs to handle this upcoming event at the Baron's masquerade ball, and on and on. Yeah, they can get *deep* into every kind of detail and plan.
Good times, for sure!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Aglondir on July 12, 2024, 11:04:12 PMQuote from: SHARK on July 12, 2024, 10:40:32 PMIn my Thandor campaign with the women, I have this "Chaos Influence" Sub-system that I use, in addition to a grip of Urban events and Random tables. The women can play grab-ass and go shopping, and attend masquerade balls, and indulge their inner freaks just chomping to run wild--but only to a point. When they get too excessive with all the soap-opera and BS, and I and the other guys begin to get impatient--strange, Chaotic things start to happen. Fights and conflicts become increasingly violent and bloody, and more people start to die. The women have caught on to it gradually, and usually chirp, "We need to get back to the dungeon where it's safer!" *Laughing*
That's hilarious!
Back to the dungeon, where it's safer! (LOL)
Greetings!
Aglondir! *Laughing* Thanks! Yeah, I know I laugh every time they pipe up with saying that! I have to reign them in though, you know?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Orphan81 on July 12, 2024, 12:42:40 PMSo I've been seeing this making the ad rounds on facebook.
"How to GM Romance" and the art for it is exactly what you would expect for present day progressive standards.
But it made me take a closer look at the 'staff' that's putting this all together and all I could think is... Have any of these people actually been in a longterm committed relationship? Are any of them married?
What business do people who know nothing about real world healthy relationships have trying to 'teach' the rest of us how to run 'romance' in our tabletop games?
Which brings me to my next point.
Do you put romance in your own tabletop games?
When I was younger I did... but these days, in my 40s, married and a child of my own... I'm not here to be anyone's pretend girlfriend/boyfriend. I don't make it impossible but it's always going to be a minor part of my games with fade to black with most everything.
As DM, I would go straight to the Harlot Table; in the AD&D 1E DMG. ;)
Quote from: is friday on July 12, 2024, 08:41:49 PMQuote from: Orphan81 on July 12, 2024, 12:42:40 PMSo I've been seeing this making the ad rounds on facebook.
"How to GM Romance" and the art for it is exactly what you would expect for present day progressive standards.
But it made me take a closer look at the 'staff' that's putting this all together and all I could think is... Have any of these people actually been in a longterm committed relationship? Are any of them married?
What business do people who know nothing about real world healthy relationships have trying to 'teach' the rest of us how to run 'romance' in our tabletop games?
Which brings me to my next point.
Do you put romance in your own tabletop games?
When I was younger I did... but these days, in my 40s, married and a child of my own... I'm not here to be anyone's pretend girlfriend/boyfriend. I don't make it impossible but it's always going to be a minor part of my games with fade to black with most everything.
Hey there! I'm the Project Lead for How To GM Romance. Some info about me:
- Married 15 years with a congenial split, 3 loving children.
- Currently in a happy 2-year long lesbian relationship with a woman so hot her DMs are blowing up every day for no reason.
- I've run over 900 professional tabletop games with 130+ 5-star reviews.
- I host a blog and podcast that is one of the most popular in the industry for both pro GMs and game designers.
- I've hosted several hundred pro GMs on workshops to improve their business techniques, including romance.
- I charge $150-300/hr for consulting and people routinely pay it, because the value is immense.
I would say I'm very qualified. But not only that - my team is assembled of the most skilled professionals in both the design and performance side of our industry. We have a lot to impart to the average person.
Just as our ad copy says on our Backer Kit campaign, not every relationship should be railroaded. This book is a toolbox for GMs to help enable the players they have at their table who are interested in that type of roleplay. This can be as subtle or overt as desired by all parties, with consent.
You're absolutely right: It's not our business to tell you how to run your table. But it speaks volumes that you feel condescended to and threatened by queers so terribly that you had to make a topic about us.
Perhaps it's more, your book seems aimed directly at portraying *QUEER* romance more than anything.
Which, there's absolutely nothing wrong with. I have homosexual members of my own direct family. That being said, your book says how to GM 'romance' and when visiting the backerit page for it, it seems to scream "No CisHet allowed!"
So it doesn't seem like a book that would be useful to about... 97% of the actual player base.
I think you're going to end up funded. You're a little more than halfway to your goal, but I just want to point out by contrast... The Waifu RPG (With Stats for 5e and Pathfinder) was funded in 33 minutes and ended up just shy of 160k.
Now the Waifu RPG is most definitely fully CisHet in it's presentation, and made by a Husband and Wife team..
But I'd like to think we can have a happy medium somewhere... where we could have a Romance book that does seem like it's for everyone and not just slanted towards one specific cultural base.
Quote from: is friday on July 12, 2024, 08:41:49 PMQuote from: Orphan81 on July 12, 2024, 12:42:40 PMSo I've been seeing this making the ad rounds on facebook.
"How to GM Romance" and the art for it is exactly what you would expect for present day progressive standards.
But it made me take a closer look at the 'staff' that's putting this all together and all I could think is... Have any of these people actually been in a longterm committed relationship? Are any of them married?
What business do people who know nothing about real world healthy relationships have trying to 'teach' the rest of us how to run 'romance' in our tabletop games?
Which brings me to my next point.
Do you put romance in your own tabletop games?
When I was younger I did... but these days, in my 40s, married and a child of my own... I'm not here to be anyone's pretend girlfriend/boyfriend. I don't make it impossible but it's always going to be a minor part of my games with fade to black with most everything.
Hey there! I'm the Project Lead for How To GM Romance. Some info about me:
- Married 15 years with a congenial split, 3 loving children.
- Currently in a happy 2-year long lesbian relationship with a woman so hot her DMs are blowing up every day for no reason.
- I've run over 900 professional tabletop games with 130+ 5-star reviews.
- I host a blog and podcast that is one of the most popular in the industry for both pro GMs and game designers.
- I've hosted several hundred pro GMs on workshops to improve their business techniques, including romance.
- I charge $150-300/hr for consulting and people routinely pay it, because the value is immense.
I would say I'm very qualified. But not only that - my team is assembled of the most skilled professionals in both the design and performance side of our industry. We have a lot to impart to the average person.
Just as our ad copy says on our Backer Kit campaign, not every relationship should be railroaded. This book is a toolbox for GMs to help enable the players they have at their table who are interested in that type of roleplay. This can be as subtle or overt as desired by all parties, with consent.
You're absolutely right: It's not our business to tell you how to run your table. But it speaks volumes that you feel condescended to and threatened by queers so terribly that you had to make a topic about us.
Is Friday, your response seems overly defensive.
EDIT: Never mind. I found out what I needed to know. Not what I would use as a source for advice.
Wow.
900 games ran with over 100 5-star reviews?
So first of all, everybody in here needs to bow down to the great excellence of this MF. The credentials make him/her/them a superstar Gamemaster that you aren't qualified to question.
Just STFU and take the free Pretend Sex advice, will you?
(https://gifdb.com/images/high/you-re-welcome-marvel-hawkeye-lj7zezbfgrg4lzp5.gif)
Quote from: Orphan81 on July 13, 2024, 10:52:57 AMPerhaps it's more, your book seems aimed directly at portraying *QUEER* romance more than anything.
Which, there's absolutely nothing wrong with. I have homosexual members of my own direct family. That being said, your book says how to GM 'romance' and when visiting the backerit page for it, it seems to scream "No CisHet allowed!"
So it doesn't seem like a book that would be useful to about... 97% of the actual player base.
This would be a question for Friday, but I don't see anything in the Backerkit text that says it is for queer romance. Many of the writers identify as queer, but I don't think that prevents them from writing a book that covers both non-queer and queer romance -- especially if the writers have experienced both non-queer and queer relationships, as Friday says she has.
As for the usefulness -- I'm not queer, but I've had LGBT and queer players, and I've GMed and played in queer romance subplots. I know that some people will only play their own identities as PCs -- but in my experience many if not most players are willing to venture outside that. I've had lesbian players playing straight PCs, and I've played gay and lesbian (as well as straight) PCs.
I've had infrequent romance plots in my games, with the plots being prominent in a few campaigns. I'm recently remarried, but I've never seen that as a problem for role-playing romance. Role-playing a romance isn't cheating. In my experience, it's less intimate than acting out a romance in a play. It helps that my ex-wife was a role-player, and my new wife has been a semi-professional actress.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 13, 2024, 12:31:23 PMIs Friday, your response seems overly defensive. Could you give us your real name so that we could verify your claims of 5+ Star reviews and over 900 professional games ran? I'm also interested in your workshops and consulting on RPGs.
I'd presume that this is Friday Strout, since she is credited as lead on the Backerkit project page, and "IsFriday" is her online handle. When I check her profile on StartPlaying,
https://startplaying.games/gm/isfriday
She's listed as having 923 games hosted with a 5.0 rating.
Quote from: jhkim on July 13, 2024, 01:38:53 PMhttps://startplaying.games/gm/isfriday
Thanks for the link. That was eye-opening, I didn't even know there was such a site. That's the sort of thing I'd expected Wizards has wanted to duplicate (but in a closed fashion) with their VTT.
As for the topic, none of my players have ever had interest in Romance in the game. They will 'pick' up barmaids and such but that all hand-waved and fade to black as its an annoying distraction to the game. I'll eventually cook up some carousing tables to provide plot hooks and make something of it.
Quote from: jhkim on July 13, 2024, 01:38:53 PMQuote from: jeff37923 on July 13, 2024, 12:31:23 PMIs Friday, your response seems overly defensive. Could you give us your real name so that we could verify your claims of 5+ Star reviews and over 900 professional games ran? I'm also interested in your workshops and consulting on RPGs.
I'd presume that this is Friday Strout, since she is credited as lead on the Backerkit project page, and "IsFriday" is her online handle. When I check her profile on StartPlaying,
https://startplaying.games/gm/isfriday
She's listed as having 923 games hosted with a 5.0 rating.
You forgot their other fundraiser, jhkim.
https://www.gofundme.com/f/fridays-feminization-surgery-fundraiser
Quote from: jhkim on July 13, 2024, 01:38:53 PMQuote from: Orphan81 on July 13, 2024, 10:52:57 AMPerhaps it's more, your book seems aimed directly at portraying *QUEER* romance more than anything.
Which, there's absolutely nothing wrong with. I have homosexual members of my own direct family. That being said, your book says how to GM 'romance' and when visiting the backerit page for it, it seems to scream "No CisHet allowed!"
So it doesn't seem like a book that would be useful to about... 97% of the actual player base.
This would be a question for Friday, but I don't see anything in the Backerkit text that says it is for queer romance. Many of the writers identify as queer, but I don't think that prevents them from writing a book that covers both non-queer and queer romance -- especially if the writers have experienced both non-queer and queer relationships, as Friday says she has.
You're usual disingenuous need to be a contrarian rears it's head, yet again.
"It doesn't specifically say it's only for Queer romance."
So you're just blatantly ignoring how every example art piece from the book is queer coded and the part where the book artists state they specifically do queer art.
But they didn't *specifically* mention it's a Queer romance book in text, so it's totally not you guys.
Quote from: Ruprecht on July 13, 2024, 02:14:40 PMQuote from: jhkim on July 13, 2024, 01:38:53 PMhttps://startplaying.games/gm/isfriday
Thanks for the link. That was eye-opening, I didn't even know there was such a site. That's the sort of thing I'd expected Wizards has wanted to duplicate (but in a closed fashion) with their VTT.
As for the topic, none of my players have ever had interest in Romance in the game. They will 'pick' up barmaids and such but that all hand-waved and fade to black as its an annoying distraction to the game. I'll eventually cook up some carousing tables to provide plot hooks and make something of it.
What was eye opening to me, was scrolling through the website and looking at all the GMs and being unable to find one that DIDN'T have a 5.0 rating. They all do.
Quote from: ForgottenF on July 12, 2024, 11:00:00 PMQuote from: SHARK on July 12, 2024, 10:40:32 PMOn the more male-centric side of things, having the women players along is generally positive overall, as they do tend to roleplay very well, and well, they also tend towards taking the game and the fantasy world seriously. Initially, the men are sometimes skeptical, but over time, they also appreciate the approaches that women players bring to the game as a whole, and to my table in particular.
That's been my experience as well. The few women I've gotten the chance to play with have frequently been some of the most dedicated roleplayers I've had in my games. If they've had a flaw, it's usually in getting a little too into it and taking things that happen in the game too personally, but I'll still seek out female players when I can for that reason. Sadly, they often clash with the more beer-and-pretzels or jokey sensibilities of my male players.
Well, I'll be a (limited) voice of decent on that . For my face to face game I have my 2 daughters, their best friend (another girl) and her dad (an ole school 1e gamer from back in the day like me). My younger daughter IS a roleplayer like you mention, and their friend's dad riffs off her role playing. However, the other 2 girls ARE NOT role players. I have to all but twist their arms to do any role playing of their characters. The outlier in that is the friend and my younger girls interactions. It is ALWAYS their friendly rivalry and picking on each other (to the point of one stealing food and bribing the group's dog to be her pet more than the other when the other was sleeping).
Whit them, it is a reflection of their personalities more than male v female in the roleplaying. My younger daughter is MUCH more outgoing than her older sister and their friend. Both of which are introverted (almost to the painful point) and it just isn't in their nature to put themselves out and play a role even in a 'roleplaying' hobby.
That said, they do all three of the girls, get more emotional than most guys ever do. Admitidly they are teen girls, but even with that, I have had to be careful (especially in the Delta Green/CoC game) to not torque their emotions to hard.
From that site (start playing). Can someone break this down for me:
QuoteSafety tools used:
• Aftercare
• Bleed
• Breaks
• Debriefing
• Lines and Veils
• Monte Cook RPG Consent Checklist
• Open Door
• Session 0
• Stars and Wishes
• X, N, and O Cards
Edit:
I've heard of these: Consent Checklist, Session 0, X Card. What's up with the rest?
I see that Common Sense is not on the list. :-)
Quote from: Aglondir on July 13, 2024, 07:41:20 PMFrom that site (start playing). Can someone break this down for me:
QuoteSafety tools used:
• Aftercare
• Bleed
• Breaks
• Debriefing
• Lines and Veils
• Monte Cook RPG Consent Checklist
• Open Door
• Session 0
• Stars and Wishes
• X, N, and O Cards
Edit:
I've heard of these: Consent Checklist, Session 0, X Card. What's up with the rest?
A bunch of new red flags, if anyone requests or says those are in use I either bounce or kick them out.
Quote from: Aglondir on July 13, 2024, 07:41:20 PMFrom that site (start playing). Can someone break this down for me:
QuoteSafety tools used:
• Aftercare
• Bleed
• Breaks
• Debriefing
• Lines and Veils
• Monte Cook RPG Consent Checklist
• Open Door
• Session 0
• Stars and Wishes
• X, N, and O Cards
Edit: I've heard of these: Consent Checklist, Session 0, X Card. What's up with the rest?
I know two more -
"Open Door" is just the policy that if a player has to leave the game, they leave. I find it pretty common sense. It seems silly to me to demand a player stay if they've got a problem with the game.
"Lines and Veils" means that before the game, the GM talks with the players about what content they find unacceptable in the game. A hard no is a "line" - like no rape or torture in the game. A "veil" is something that's OK to have, but make sure it's not detailed. i.e. If there's a veil on torture, then if a PC is tortured, just say it happened and leave it at that. If the player lines/veils aren't workable with the game, then at least everyone knows in advance.
I can guess at some of the others, but I'm not sure.
Quote from: jhkim on July 14, 2024, 01:51:24 AMQuote from: Aglondir on July 13, 2024, 07:41:20 PMFrom that site (start playing). Can someone break this down for me:
QuoteSafety tools used:
• Aftercare
• Bleed
• Breaks
• Debriefing
• Lines and Veils
• Monte Cook RPG Consent Checklist
• Open Door
• Session 0
• Stars and Wishes
• X, N, and O Cards
Edit: I've heard of these: Consent Checklist, Session 0, X Card. What's up with the rest?
I know two more -
"Open Door" is just the policy that if a player has to leave the game, they leave. I find it pretty common sense. It seems silly to me to demand a player stay if they've got a problem with the game.
"Lines and Veils" means that before the game, the GM talks with the players about what content they find unacceptable in the game. A hard no is a "line" - like no rape or torture in the game. A "veil" is something that's OK to have, but make sure it's not detailed. i.e. If there's a veil on torture, then if a PC is tortured, just say it happened and leave it at that. If the player lines/veils aren't workable with the game, then at least everyone knows in advance.
I can guess at some of the others, but I'm not sure.
Aftercare, breaks and debriefing. When are we going to have time to play?
Aftercare I only know as a BDSM term. In simplest language, it's being nice to someone after rough sex so they know you didn't mean it. You can see how that would extrapolate to rpg gaming.
I'll make some educated guesses, based on that. "Debriefing" probably means talking about shit that upset people after the game. "breaks" means taking a break when people get emotional. "Stars and Wishes" I'm going to guess from context is the inverse of "lines and veils".
I don't know what an "N" or "0-card" is. Based on the fact that the X-card is effectively a safeword, I'm going to assume they're equivalents of the way some people use semi-safewords during sexual roleplay to mean "more of this" or "back off".
As is so often the case with safety tools, most of this stuff is just formalizing and putting jargon around things that ought to be regarded as common sense and basic decency, and the rest of it is a way of scripting the game to make sure the players get what they want. I don't see a need to play this way, but I'm kinda over getting outraged about it.
Drifting back to the OP, I looked at the local library for writer books on romance. Oh my, the bodice rippers have turned that into a seedy little industry. All I found was one short little essay on 'clean' romance.
Quote from: zircher on July 14, 2024, 03:18:04 PMDrifting back to the OP, I looked at the local library for writer books on romance. Oh my, the bodice rippers have turned that into a seedy little industry. All I found was one short little essay on 'clean' romance.
If I was going to look for a book on how to do romance I'd start with "How I Write" by Janet Evanovich. I haven't read it myself, but I've heard good things, and she's an extremely successful writer of romance, among other things
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 13, 2024, 09:54:10 PMQuote from: Aglondir on July 13, 2024, 07:41:20 PMFrom that site (start playing). Can someone break this down for me:
QuoteSafety tools used:
• Aftercare
• Bleed
• Breaks
• Debriefing
• Lines and Veils
• Monte Cook RPG Consent Checklist
• Open Door
• Session 0
• Stars and Wishes
• X, N, and O Cards
Edit:
I've heard of these: Consent Checklist, Session 0, X Card. What's up with the rest?
A bunch of new red flags, if anyone requests or says those are in use I either bounce or kick them out.
Do you feel the same about a Session 0?
Bleed is when the player is blurring the line between PC and self. You start thinking of yourself at the table and on the street more as Alkharg the Elf Destroyer rather than Jane Doe, accountant. Worse case scenario is you momentarily stop thinking of yourself as Jane Doe, accountant at all.
Quote from: Omega on July 15, 2024, 11:47:41 AMBleed is when the player is blurring the line between PC and self. You start thinking of yourself at the table and on the street more as Alkharg the Elf Destroyer rather than Jane Doe, accountant. Worse case scenario is you momentarily stop thinking of yourself as Jane Doe, accountant at all.
If that's what it is, then "Bleed" is a clear mental health issue and beyond anything GMs should be dealing with.
Quote from: Omega on July 15, 2024, 11:47:41 AMBleed is when the player is blurring the line between PC and self. You start thinking of yourself at the table and on the street more as Alkharg the Elf Destroyer rather than Jane Doe, accountant. Worse case scenario is you momentarily stop thinking of yourself as Jane Doe, accountant at all.
BLACKLEAF!!! NOOOOOOOOOO!!!
In general I prefer to avoid playing with anyone who needs safety tools outside of a session zero. We're here to play a game together, not go through psycho-sexual regressive therapy. If you need 'aftercare' and worry about 'bleed' and need X cards I don't want you at my table.
Quote from: Orphan81 on July 15, 2024, 02:29:18 PMIn general I prefer to avoid playing with anyone who needs safety tools outside of a session zero. We're here to play a game together, not go through psycho-sexual regressive therapy. If you need 'aftercare' and worry about 'bleed' and need X cards I don't want you at my table.
But Tom Hanks is cool, man.
Quote from: Omega on July 15, 2024, 11:47:41 AMBleed is when the player is blurring the line between PC and self. You start thinking of yourself at the table and on the street more as Alkharg the Elf Destroyer rather than Jane Doe, accountant. Worse case scenario is you momentarily stop thinking of yourself as Jane Doe, accountant at all.
As I know it, the term is from Nordic Larp. This is their 2009 definition:
QuoteBleed is experienced by a player when her thoughts and feelings are influenced by those of her character, or vice versa. With increasing bleed, the border between player and character becomes more and more transparent. It makes sense to think of the degree of bleed as a measure of how separated different levels of play (actual/inner/meta) are.
Bleed is instrumental for horror role-playing: It is often harder to scare the player through the character than the other way around. An overt secluded dice roll against a player's perception stat is likely to make the character more catious.
A classic example of bleed is when a player's affection for another player carries over into the game or influences her character's perception of the other's character.
Source: https://nordiclarp.org/wiki/Bleed
As defined here, it's completely unremarkable. If the GM puts on scary music and a player's PC acts more jumpy, then that's bleed (aka "bleed-in" where out-of-character emotions affect the in-game stuff). If a player gets pissed at Bob because Bob psycho PC killed his PC, then that's also bleed (aka "bleed-out" where stuff in-game affects the player's feelings out-of-game).
But I've also seen it used as if it's more of a weird mental/emotional state. So I'm not sure how people in online play like startplaying.games intend it. It certainly isn't a "safety tool".
Going back to the first page,
WHO pays $300/hr for GM advice ??
the only ones I have heard of playing RPGs for money was corporate 'team building' nonsense.
what other 'professional' settings would there be?
can i sell you some advice for money?
free sample; dont buy a house now, wait.
Quote from: Orphan81 on July 15, 2024, 02:29:18 PMIn general I prefer to avoid playing with anyone who needs safety tools outside of a session zero. We're here to play a game together, not go through psycho-sexual regressive therapy. If you need 'aftercare' and worry about 'bleed' and need X cards I don't want you at my table.
Session zero
isn't a safety tool. It exists to get everyone on the same page to facilitate the opening of a new campaign (rolling characters, establishing backgrounds, making sure you don't pick a mounted warrior in a dungeon-crawl, etc.). Anyone who sees session zero as mainly a way to set ground rules for their sexual content is a deviant sexpest and should be avoided at all costs!
Quote from: orbitalair on July 15, 2024, 03:38:34 PMGoing back to the first page,
WHO pays $300/hr for GM advice ??
the only ones I have heard of playing RPGs for money was corporate 'team building' nonsense.
what other 'professional' settings would there be?
can i sell you some advice for money?
free sample; dont buy a house now, wait.
I've heard it expressed as follows, "If your customers are all idiots, then you are either a scam-artists or a fool yourself. Smart people earn smart money."
No one with greater than a room-temperature IQ is going to pay hundreds of dollars for DMing advice. No one.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 15, 2024, 03:55:36 PMQuote from: Orphan81 on July 15, 2024, 02:29:18 PMIn general I prefer to avoid playing with anyone who needs safety tools outside of a session zero. We're here to play a game together, not go through psycho-sexual regressive therapy. If you need 'aftercare' and worry about 'bleed' and need X cards I don't want you at my table.
Session zero isn't a safety tool. It exists to get everyone on the same page to facilitate the opening of a new campaign (rolling characters, establishing backgrounds, making sure you don't pick a mounted warrior in a dungeon-crawl, etc.). Anyone who sees session zero as mainly a way to set ground rules for their sexual content is a deviant sexpest and should be avoided at all costs!
Session Zero is most definitely a "Safety tool" even if you don't like the term.
If I'm running Vampire: The Masquerade I'm going to be up front if the game is going to include things like sex workers, drug addiction, and human trafficking.
I want to make sure everyone is on the same page and talks about how dark we're going to go.
On the other hand if I'm running Mutants and Masterminds it's going to be very important to talk about whether we're going to be Silver age vs Iron Age in terms of content and feel.
Different games have different "ratings". Hell Dungeons and Dragons is going to be very different if you establish the tone will be "Berserk" versus Lord of the Rings.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 15, 2024, 03:58:27 PMNo one with greater than a room-temperature IQ is going to pay hundreds of dollars for DMing advice. No one.
These days there are money-making activities like paid GMing on startplaying.games as well as "actual play" streaming like Critical Role.
If someone is up-and-coming at making money from these, then they might well pay a lot for advice on how to monetize. Just like someone might pay a lot for professional advice on how to run their RPG Kickstarter, which goes beyond general game design and gets into marketing, social media use, and so forth.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 15, 2024, 03:55:36 PMSession zero isn't a safety tool. It exists to get everyone on the same page to facilitate the opening of a new campaign (rolling characters, establishing backgrounds, making sure you don't pick a mounted warrior in a dungeon-crawl, etc.). Anyone who sees session zero as mainly a way to set ground rules for their sexual content is a deviant sexpest and should be avoided at all costs!
In my group, session zero is essentially the last checkpoint in preparing for a game to start, to make sure everyone's got all their stuff in a row and we are ready to go, a brief review of table rules, maybe a short discussion of what to expect over the coming campaign (forex: "hey, this AP has a lot of underwater combat, make sure your character can function in that sort of environment").
The sorts of people who have these bizarre checklists and "safety tools" aren't the sort I'd be willing to associate with to begin with, much less invite to my table. And if one managed to get through that filter -- I seriously doubt they'd willingly stay in the game long, given the sorts of things that get said at the table OOC or discussed in our discord servers.
Quote from: jhkim on July 15, 2024, 04:23:46 PMQuote from: Eirikrautha on July 15, 2024, 03:58:27 PMNo one with greater than a room-temperature IQ is going to pay hundreds of dollars for DMing advice. No one.
These days there are money-making activities like paid GMing on startplaying.games as well as "actual play" streaming like Critical Role.
If someone is up-and-coming at making money from these, then they might well pay a lot for advice on how to monetize. Just like someone might pay a lot for professional advice on how to run their RPG Kickstarter, which goes beyond general game design and gets into marketing, social media use, and so forth.
None of which is "GM advice." I stand by my statement. Even more so since you oppose it, since you are pretty much always wrong...
Quote from: Orphan81 on July 15, 2024, 04:10:30 PMQuote from: Eirikrautha on July 15, 2024, 03:55:36 PMQuote from: Orphan81 on July 15, 2024, 02:29:18 PMIn general I prefer to avoid playing with anyone who needs safety tools outside of a session zero. We're here to play a game together, not go through psycho-sexual regressive therapy. If you need 'aftercare' and worry about 'bleed' and need X cards I don't want you at my table.
Session zero isn't a safety tool. It exists to get everyone on the same page to facilitate the opening of a new campaign (rolling characters, establishing backgrounds, making sure you don't pick a mounted warrior in a dungeon-crawl, etc.). Anyone who sees session zero as mainly a way to set ground rules for their sexual content is a deviant sexpest and should be avoided at all costs!
Session Zero is most definitely a "Safety tool" even if you don't like the term.
If I'm running Vampire: The Masquerade I'm going to be up front if the game is going to include things like sex workers, drug addiction, and human trafficking.
I want to make sure everyone is on the same page and talks about how dark we're going to go.
On the other hand if I'm running Mutants and Masterminds it's going to be very important to talk about whether we're going to be Silver age vs Iron Age in terms of content and feel.
Different games have different "ratings". Hell Dungeons and Dragons is going to be very different if you establish the tone will be "Berserk" versus Lord of the Rings.
I have never had to warn my players against content. As GnomeWorks states, session zero primarily exists to act as the "last checkpoint" for all of my games. If your games require to to warn players that you're going to include gross or deviant stuff, you do you. But that's not "safety." A roleplaying game can't be "unsafe" unless you are swinging real swords at other players during combat...
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 15, 2024, 01:32:25 PMQuote from: Omega on July 15, 2024, 11:47:41 AMBleed is when the player is blurring the line between PC and self. You start thinking of yourself at the table and on the street more as Alkharg the Elf Destroyer rather than Jane Doe, accountant. Worse case scenario is you momentarily stop thinking of yourself as Jane Doe, accountant at all.
If that's what it is, then "Bleed" is a clear mental health issue and beyond anything GMs should be dealing with.
Yeah.
The only useful ones I see are Session 0 and Lines and Veils (which is essentially what you're discussing in Session 0.)
Wait .... I am evil and wrong for making orcs and other green skin monsters automatically monsters there to kill the players NPCs etc or be killed by those same PCs and NPCs. However, the same people that consider me evil say you need safety words content check lists XNO cards .... Especially needing those to play a romantic game ... To quote my favorite author "I am a stranger in a strange land"
I will say after each of my face to face games with my daughters I do have a quick debriefing "How did you like the session tonight" "How did I do on XYZ, what can I do better on next time" "What rule questions do you have, or do I need to look up for the next game" . And for my younger daughter, who is actively showing interest to DMing on her own one day, "do you understand why I did .... what ever DM trick I used", to help her see behind the curtain. However, I would say that is just common sense to be a better DM and help someone eventually become a good DM themselves, and not something needed from a twisted romantic safety game list.
Quote from: Lurker on July 15, 2024, 06:53:28 PMWait .... I am evil and wrong for making orcs and other green skin monsters automatically monsters there to kill the players NPCs etc or be killed by those same PCs and NPCs
That doesn't make you evil, it makes you basic. You don't have to be basic, since you could certaily introduce more nuance if you wanted it, but you're being basic by choice. That's not evil and not necessarily bad, if that's the game everyone at the table wants.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 15, 2024, 05:11:32 PMEven more so since you oppose it, since you are pretty much always wrong...
Look another of Eirikrautha's pathetic ad hominem attacks.
My game isn't a FRPG and is about social interactions, so there is romance in it. In a FRPG, I'm there mainly for adventuring and combat and questing for treaures and stuff. All this relationship stuff isn't for my fantasy adventures.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 15, 2024, 05:11:32 PMQuote from: jhkim on July 15, 2024, 04:23:46 PMThese days there are money-making activities like paid GMing on startplaying.games as well as "actual play" streaming like Critical Role.
If someone is up-and-coming at making money from these, then they might well pay a lot for advice on how to monetize. Just like someone might pay a lot for professional advice on how to run their RPG Kickstarter, which goes beyond general game design and gets into marketing, social media use, and so forth.
None of which is "GM advice." I stand by my statement.
This may be miscommunication. I understood the topic was IsFriday's claim that she would "charge $150-300/hr for consulting". She didn't say that the consulting was "GM advice" -- that is projection from what she said. It sounds possible she might indeed charge that for consulting, but it isn't advice for hobbyist, non-professional GMs.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 13, 2024, 02:35:20 PMQuote from: jhkim on July 13, 2024, 01:38:53 PMQuote from: jeff37923 on July 13, 2024, 12:31:23 PMIs Friday, your response seems overly defensive. Could you give us your real name so that we could verify your claims of 5+ Star reviews and over 900 professional games ran? I'm also interested in your workshops and consulting on RPGs.
I'd presume that this is Friday Strout, since she is credited as lead on the Backerkit project page, and "IsFriday" is her online handle. When I check her profile on StartPlaying,
https://startplaying.games/gm/isfriday
She's listed as having 923 games hosted with a 5.0 rating.
You forgot their other fundraiser, jhkim.
https://www.gofundme.com/f/fridays-feminization-surgery-fundraiser
Why am I not surprised it's a guy with mental issues?
Divorced, thinks he's a she, probably a "lesbian"...
Exactly the kind of person to give advice about romance... In any way shape or form.
No wonder he needs "safety tools" the idiot can't differentiate between reality & fantasy or his bdsm dungeon and the dungeons in an RPG.
Quote from: is friday on July 12, 2024, 08:41:49 PMQuote from: Orphan81 on July 12, 2024, 12:42:40 PMSo I've been seeing this making the ad rounds on facebook.
"How to GM Romance" and the art for it is exactly what you would expect for present day progressive standards.
But it made me take a closer look at the 'staff' that's putting this all together and all I could think is... Have any of these people actually been in a longterm committed relationship? Are any of them married?
What business do people who know nothing about real world healthy relationships have trying to 'teach' the rest of us how to run 'romance' in our tabletop games?
Which brings me to my next point.
Do you put romance in your own tabletop games?
When I was younger I did... but these days, in my 40s, married and a child of my own... I'm not here to be anyone's pretend girlfriend/boyfriend. I don't make it impossible but it's always going to be a minor part of my games with fade to black with most everything.
Hey there! I'm the Project Lead for How To GM Romance. Some info about me:
- Married 15 years with a congenial split, 3 loving children.
- Currently in a happy 2-year long lesbian relationship with a woman so hot her DMs are blowing up every day for no reason.
- I've run over 900 professional tabletop games with 130+ 5-star reviews.
- I host a blog and podcast that is one of the most popular in the industry for both pro GMs and game designers.
- I've hosted several hundred pro GMs on workshops to improve their business techniques, including romance.
- I charge $150-300/hr for consulting and people routinely pay it, because the value is immense.
I would say I'm very qualified. But not only that - my team is assembled of the most skilled professionals in both the design and performance side of our industry. We have a lot to impart to the average person.
Just as our ad copy says on our Backer Kit campaign, not every relationship should be railroaded. This book is a toolbox for GMs to help enable the players they have at their table who are interested in that type of roleplay. This can be as subtle or overt as desired by all parties, with consent.
You're absolutely right: It's not our business to tell you how to run your table. But it speaks volumes that you feel condescended to and threatened by queers so terribly that you had to make a topic about us.
When promoting a supplement about romance, it strikes me as odd to brag about being divorced or whatever you mean by "split". Wouldn't that mean you failed at the long term aspect of it? Not something I personal would brag about but go off I guess
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 15, 2024, 07:12:17 PMQuote from: Eirikrautha on July 15, 2024, 05:11:32 PMEven more so since you oppose it, since you are pretty much always wrong...
Look another of Eirikrautha's pathetic ad hominem attacks.
Ad hominem refers to attacks based around the personal characteristics of the arguer. I'm attacking based on the probabilities determined from frequent interaction. Unless you are agreeing that jhkim's personal characteristics include almost always being wrong?
Look, another pathetic self-own by HappyDerp...
Quote from: Wednesday on July 16, 2024, 08:21:30 AMHey there! I'm the Project Lead for How To GM Romance. Some info about me:
- Married 15 years with a congenial split, 3 loving children.
- Currently in a happy 2-year long lesbian relationship with a woman so hot her DMs are blowing up every day for no reason.
- I've run over 900 professional tabletop games with 130+ 5-star reviews.
- I host a blog and podcast that is one of the most popular in the industry for both pro GMs and game designers.
- I've hosted several hundred pro GMs on workshops to improve their business techniques, including romance.
- I charge $150-300/hr for consulting and people routinely pay it, because the value is immense.
It's generally unwise to make an issue of your personal life in a venue like this. I try not to engage in pointless insulting of strangers on the internet, so I'll just say that none of these inspire confidence.
A more interesting question is what could this individual have said that would? Credentials mean next to nothing in the RPG space, since there's no respectable accreditation body and neither someone's GM-ing skill nor the quality of their products can be anything close to objectively measured. Even sales figures are relatively meaningless by themselves, since tastes vary and sales are often driven by factors that have nothing to do with quality. I assume some understanding of this is why personal lives were brought up, but personal lives are unverifiable. Someone says "married 15 years". Well, was that 15 years of fairytale romance, or 15 years of cheating and throwing household furnishings at each other? I can read between the lines based on some of the other facts presented, but it'll be speculation.
I really only respect someone's work in the RPG world based on having seen it. For GM-ing that means either playing in their game or seeing an actual play. For products that means either previous products or a quickstart/free sample.
Quote from: Wednesday on July 16, 2024, 08:21:30 AMWhen promoting a supplement about romance, it strikes me as odd to brag about being divorced or whatever you mean by "split". Wouldn't that mean you failed at the long term aspect of it? Not something I personal would brag about but go off I guess
You mean you don't find the attempted brag about the girlfriend the most pathetic part? I'd hope someone who was giving advice about romance would at least not sound like a 15 year-old boy with his first crush. Plus, as we all know, hotness isn't communitive. Just because the person you are dating is a catch, doesn't mean you are. They could just be slumming, or broken.
Though I must admit, considering that children of divorce are much higher on the potentials for personal, social, behavioral, and educational problems that last a lifetime (more than even children born into poverty), I wouldn't necessarily brag that you did that to your minor children. Especially if the divorce is amicable. I can see risking the damage of divorce to your kids if there is violence or abuse involved (the lesser of two evils), but then how could the divorce be "congenial"? How could you be nice to someone like that? Based on the other information, if I had to guess, this is one of those, "I'm a woman now, so I'm out" kind of splits. Imagine doing that to your kids. Especially since the basis of all lasting romance is caring about the others involved. Whew.
Normally I wouldn't care about any of that stuff, especially when it comes to judging the value of RPG advice. But when they bring it to the table themselves, especially as some sort of C.V...
Edit: Oh, and my quick math tells me that 130/900 is around 14.4%. So that's a 14.4% 5-star rating?
Quote from: jhkim on July 15, 2024, 07:48:52 PMQuote from: Eirikrautha on July 15, 2024, 05:11:32 PMQuote from: jhkim on July 15, 2024, 04:23:46 PMThese days there are money-making activities like paid GMing on startplaying.games as well as "actual play" streaming like Critical Role.
If someone is up-and-coming at making money from these, then they might well pay a lot for advice on how to monetize. Just like someone might pay a lot for professional advice on how to run their RPG Kickstarter, which goes beyond general game design and gets into marketing, social media use, and so forth.
None of which is "GM advice." I stand by my statement.
This may be miscommunication. I understood the topic was IsFriday's claim that she would "charge $150-300/hr for consulting". She didn't say that the consulting was "GM advice" -- that is projection from what she said. It sounds possible she might indeed charge that for consulting, but it isn't advice for hobbyist, non-professional GMs.
Thats my fault, I apologize.
Since the consulting bullet point is after 'several hundred pro GMs' bullet, i made an assumption connection in my head.
You are right, its probably more like business consulting, how to make money, sell yourself, branding, etc.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 15, 2024, 01:32:25 PMQuote from: Omega on July 15, 2024, 11:47:41 AMBleed is when the player is blurring the line between PC and self. You start thinking of yourself at the table and on the street more as Alkharg the Elf Destroyer rather than Jane Doe, accountant. Worse case scenario is you momentarily stop thinking of yourself as Jane Doe, accountant at all.
If that's what it is, then "Bleed" is a clear mental health issue and beyond anything GMs should be dealing with.
Was my thought too. And there were people wanting this?
This is why I am always wary when someone starts demanding more and more "immersion". EuroLARPers and storygamers sometimes push it.
Its like someone saw Tom Hanks character in Mazes & Monsters and thought this was a good thing.
Quote from: jhkim on July 15, 2024, 03:20:12 PMAs defined here, it's completely unremarkable. If the GM puts on scary music and a player's PC acts more jumpy, then that's bleed (aka "bleed-in" where out-of-character emotions affect the in-game stuff). If a player gets pissed at Bob because Bob psycho PC killed his PC, then that's also bleed (aka "bleed-out" where stuff in-game affects the player's feelings out-of-game).
But I've also seen it used as if it's more of a weird mental/emotional state. So I'm not sure how people in online play like startplaying.games intend it. It certainly isn't a "safety tool".
Well it stopped being "unremarkable" and started bordering on schizophrenia pretty damn fast.
If the players want romance in our games, I always promise to GM that romance with all the sophistication, subtlety and realism of a 12 year old on a sugar high.
THAT usually gets us back to action and adventure instead.
Seriously, why do people need stuff like this? I mean, if you want 'romance' in you games let it happen organically in game. Who needs a whole manual of childish dross to play it?
I suppose the creator's are all experts on the subject. ;)
Quote from: Omega on July 17, 2024, 04:56:09 AMQuote from: jhkim on July 15, 2024, 03:20:12 PMAs defined here, it's completely unremarkable. If the GM puts on scary music and a player's PC acts more jumpy, then that's bleed (aka "bleed-in" where out-of-character emotions affect the in-game stuff). If a player gets pissed at Bob because Bob psycho PC killed his PC, then that's also bleed (aka "bleed-out" where stuff in-game affects the player's feelings out-of-game).
But I've also seen it used as if it's more of a weird mental/emotional state. So I'm not sure how people in online play like startplaying.games intend it. It certainly isn't a "safety tool".
Well it stopped being "unremarkable" and started bordering on schizophrenia pretty damn fast.
Well if that is bleed, then I use it all the time in my sci fi and more so in DB CoC game. Ambient noise, Bladerunner background music. tehcno punk electro music for a bar scene etc as applicable in the Traveller game . Creepy music in DG and then low volume barely noticeable scarry sound effects when they are exploring the haunted house or cultist's underground temple.
The best was when I ran a one off traveller game for them a few years ago (sold it as just trying the traveller rules, but they should have paid attention to the Calander and realized it was October, and October ALWAYS means a scarry adventure), They were out at a remote work site doing repairs etc. Then I slowly started adding the more creepy music in the background. Then when the first door creek and Alien motion detector ping sound effect went off in the background, my younger daughter stopped dead in her tracks mid sentence and went "Ok, we have to leave here right now". No one else notice the change in music, and asked her why and talked about their plan to make the emergency repairs needed. She was strait up "No we leave now. Right now!" That is when everyone else noticed the music and looked at my blank face ... "Really, you want to leave now, why ????"... oh make a perception roll .... >You do notice a shadow seem to move down in that side maintenance corroder" ...
So bleed is useful, but again I call that simply using a good DM tool out of the ole bag of experienced DM tricks. Not something that needs to be listed as a safety tool or trigger warning item.
However, Like you point out, if the 'bleed' goes the other way, yeah that is bad and not mentally stable !
Romance stories work in many sorts of media but there's a basic problem with them in tabletop rpgs. All romance scenes will inevitably focus on one or two characters with the rest of the characters not being able to be involved in any meaningful way. That's fine in a TV show or movie with a main character but it doesn't really work in a tabletop rpg. The one or two PCs involved in that romance story are involved while everyone else sit around waiting for it to be over. Even if I wanted to do that as GM, a lot of players will not be happy about sitting around being bored while the one player with the romance subplot plays that out. It won't happen once either. For the romance to be meaningful at all, this would have to happen multiple times over an extended period. I suspect that some players who want a romance story for their character are asking for that, at least in part, for this very reason. They know it will force the spotlight on to them repeatedly and that's what they want. They want to be the main character. That's fine for a 1 on 1 game but most games involve a group of players who are all here to play not be audiences for your romance scenes.
Quote from: Lurker on July 17, 2024, 03:58:02 PMQuote from: Omega on July 17, 2024, 04:56:09 AMQuote from: jhkim on July 15, 2024, 03:20:12 PMAs defined here, it's completely unremarkable. If the GM puts on scary music and a player's PC acts more jumpy, then that's bleed (aka "bleed-in" where out-of-character emotions affect the in-game stuff). If a player gets pissed at Bob because Bob psycho PC killed his PC, then that's also bleed (aka "bleed-out" where stuff in-game affects the player's feelings out-of-game).
But I've also seen it used as if it's more of a weird mental/emotional state. So I'm not sure how people in online play like startplaying.games intend it. It certainly isn't a "safety tool".
Well it stopped being "unremarkable" and started bordering on schizophrenia pretty damn fast.
Well if that is bleed, then I use it all the time in my sci fi and more so in DB CoC game. Ambient noise, Bladerunner background music. tehcno punk electro music for a bar scene etc as applicable in the Traveller game . Creepy music in DG and then low volume barely noticeable scarry sound effects when they are exploring the haunted house or cultist's underground temple.
However, Like you point out, if the 'bleed' goes the other way, yeah that is bad and not mentally stable !
You are describing ambient immersion. Rather than borderline schizo that does not end at the table. Which is what some are pushing bleed to be.
I mean really. I was watching a documentary on role play and there were multiple people going on about bleed and how great it was when they were out and about, NOT at the table, and all of a sudden they are thinking and acting as their character and not their real self out of the blue.
Quote from: yosemitemike on July 17, 2024, 05:03:09 PMRomance stories work in many sorts of media but there's a basic problem with them in tabletop rpgs. All romance scenes will inevitably focus on one or two characters with the rest of the characters not being able to be involved in any meaningful way.
Right. But that is a problem with any inter party interaction. Sometimes it is just two going at it and everyone else is milling about. Least it is not as bad as a single player taking up way too much time trying to squeeze every drop of info from an NPC.
Bleed is when mentally ill people can't separate fantasy from reality.
Quote from: Omega on July 17, 2024, 08:06:38 PMRight. But that is a problem with any inter party interaction. Sometimes it is just two going at it and everyone else is milling about. Least it is not as bad as a single player taking up way too much time trying to squeeze every drop of info from an NPC.
That doesn't change the fact that it's a problem. I didn't say it was the only problem.
Quote from: yosemitemike on July 17, 2024, 08:06:55 PMQuote from: Omega on July 17, 2024, 08:06:38 PMRight. But that is a problem with any inter party interaction. Sometimes it is just two going at it and everyone else is milling about. Least it is not as bad as a single player taking up way too much time trying to squeeze every drop of info from an NPC.
That doesn't change the fact that it's a problem. I didn't say it was the only problem.
There's a huge class of issues from lockpicking to piloting that not every character can contribute to. The obvious solution is roughly the same thing that's done in combat -- taking turns. i.e. passing the spotlight around.
After the pilot PC gets spotlight time when she heroically flies everyone out of danger, then maybe the soldier gets some moments of romantic interaction with the woman he rescued, and then maybe the fixer gets to talk to his underworld contacts after they get back. I just try to keep it short and have the PCs regularly check back and work together.
In my last D&D campaign, there was a romantic subplot between a PC fighter and an NPC ranger that the fighter's mother set her up with. After a successful adventure in their home city, he agreed to join the next adventure - and when the campaign concluded they got married. None of the interaction took up much time, though. It was just something going on in the background.
Quote from: jhkim on July 17, 2024, 08:48:50 PMThere's a huge class of issues from lockpicking to piloting
Those things are skill checks that take seconds. They're aren't ongoing plot lines that take chunks of time repeatedly while the other players sit around and wait. These things are not at all comparable.
Quote from: yosemitemike on July 17, 2024, 09:24:23 PMQuote from: jhkim on July 17, 2024, 08:48:50 PMThere's a huge class of issues from lockpicking to piloting
Those things are skill checks that take seconds. They're aren't ongoing plot lines that take chunks of time repeatedly while the other players sit around and wait. These things are not at all comparable.
OK, fair point that lockpicking is usually just seconds - but piloting a chase or escape can be an extended action that can take minute or more to resolve. Likewise with Diplomacy, or some complex traps or investigation.
My point is that romance isn't necessarily a big deal that eats up tons of play time. I grew up playing Champions in the 1980s, where it was a regular thing to have to spend a minute or two dealing with a Lois-Lane-like "Dependent NPC" every so often. And my James Bond 007 games generally had a few romances going.
Sure, it's more than a single roll, but that doesn't mean it derails the adventure.
Greetings!
Cities in my Thandor campaigns always have lots of brothels and whore-houses. The cities are flooded with swarms of whores. Skanks walking the streets, working the taverns and Inns. Even the laundry-services have lots of ripe broads eager to make some coin for sugar.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Courting, romance, trim hunting and the like come up once in a while but I would never act it out in character. It's a matter of "the tavern wench invites [insert name of PC] to her room" or "Lady Summerisle and her guardian accept the marriage proposal from [insert name of PC]". There are in-game reasons for courting (a character really wants someone's lands and title, for example) and skirt-chasing (bars, clubs, public baths and whorehouses have always been goldmines for information), but play-acting it? That's just fucking weird.
Same. Who is playing out sex scenes at a table that isnt a one-on-one session? WoD players?
Quote from: Omega on July 23, 2024, 05:37:30 AMSame. Who is playing out sex scenes at a table that isnt a one-on-one session? WoD players?
The same type of people that demand YOU use "safety" tools, remember the Robot grape scandal?
Progressives can't differentiate between fantasy and IRL nor can they help themselves to push their weird fetishes into the game and ACT THEM OUT.
I think they hear/read Dungeon and think of their BDSM fantasies.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 23, 2024, 12:03:08 PMremember the Robot grape scandal?
I don't. I did a Google search and it came up with a robotic-assisted surgical video. Is that what you're talking about? If so, how does that fit with safety tools?
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 23, 2024, 02:10:39 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on July 23, 2024, 12:03:08 PMremember the Robot grape scandal?
I don't. I did a Google search and it came up with a robotic-assisted surgical video. Is that what you're talking about? If so, how does that fit with safety tools?
A progressive asshole (but I repeat myself) had a youtube show where he ran his TTRPG, it was a Sci-Fi RPG, in one chapter he has an NPC stick stuff into the robot PC live and without consent, the player complained, Pundit even made a video about it, it was big even between the progs, guy apologized but not sure if he got cancelled or not, since without double standards progressives would have none.
The GM was also a proponent of using "Safety" tools and they were supposedly on the "table" for his players.
Edited to add sources, funny you didn't find it since it took me 5 seconds.
https://www.polygon.com/2020/4/6/21207309/rollplay-far-verona-sexual-assault-lets-play-season-2-canceled (https://www.polygon.com/2020/4/6/21207309/rollplay-far-verona-sexual-assault-lets-play-season-2-canceled)
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 23, 2024, 02:15:13 PMQuote from: HappyDaze on July 23, 2024, 02:10:39 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on July 23, 2024, 12:03:08 PMremember the Robot grape scandal?
I don't. I did a Google search and it came up with a robotic-assisted surgical video. Is that what you're talking about? If so, how does that fit with safety tools?
A progressive asshole (but I repeat myself) had a youtube show where he ran his TTRPG, it was a Sci-Fi RPG, in one chapter he has an NPC stick stuff into the robot PC live and without consent, the player complained, Pundit even made a video about it, it was big even between the progs, guy apologized but not sure if he got cancelled or not, since without double standards progressives would have none.
The GM was also a proponent of using "Safety" tools and they were supposedly on the "table" for his players.
OK, yeah, I remember it was...Adam? Something...? Weird looking dude with pink hair, right? That seems like a long, long time ago. I didn't remember anything about grapes in that one though.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 23, 2024, 02:19:04 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on July 23, 2024, 02:15:13 PMQuote from: HappyDaze on July 23, 2024, 02:10:39 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on July 23, 2024, 12:03:08 PMremember the Robot grape scandal?
I don't. I did a Google search and it came up with a robotic-assisted surgical video. Is that what you're talking about? If so, how does that fit with safety tools?
A progressive asshole (but I repeat myself) had a youtube show where he ran his TTRPG, it was a Sci-Fi RPG, in one chapter he has an NPC stick stuff into the robot PC live and without consent, the player complained, Pundit even made a video about it, it was big even between the progs, guy apologized but not sure if he got cancelled or not, since without double standards progressives would have none.
The GM was also a proponent of using "Safety" tools and they were supposedly on the "table" for his players.
OK, yeah, I remember it was...Adam? Something...? Weird looking dude with pink hair, right? That seems like a long, long time ago. I didn't remember anything about grapes in that one though.
Adam Koebel yes. Not sure about the danger hair bit, but it wouldn't surprise me.
Danger hair...
(https://imgs.search.brave.com/KC52wUZMSTcVcnVyqpMLR4zszGTww56TQldOVt228Ao/rs:fit:860:0:0:0/g:ce/aHR0cHM6Ly9pbWFn/ZXMtZ2Vla25hdGl2/ZS1jb20uZXhhY3Rk/bi5jb20vd3AtY29u/dGVudC91cGxvYWRz/LzIwMjAvMDYvMDkx/MTAyNDEvQWRhbV9z/Y3JlZW5ncmFiX3N0/cmVhbS5qcGc_c3Ry/aXA9YWxsJmxvc3N5/PTEmc2hhcnA9MSZz/c2w9MQ)
Quote from: yosemitemike on July 17, 2024, 05:03:09 PMRomance stories work in many sorts of media but there's a basic problem with them in tabletop rpgs. All romance scenes will inevitably focus on one or two characters with the rest of the characters not being able to be involved in any meaningful way. That's fine in a TV show or movie with a main character but it doesn't really work in a tabletop rpg. The one or two PCs involved in that romance story are involved while everyone else sit around waiting for it to be over. Even if I wanted to do that as GM, a lot of players will not be happy about sitting around being bored while the one player with the romance subplot plays that out. It won't happen once either. For the romance to be meaningful at all, this would have to happen multiple times over an extended period. I suspect that some players who want a romance story for their character are asking for that, at least in part, for this very reason. They know it will force the spotlight on to them repeatedly and that's what they want. They want to be the main character. That's fine for a 1 on 1 game but most games involve a group of players who are all here to play not be audiences for your romance scenes.
Now making his debut live on the repgsite, Zerocool ishere to disagree with this notion that romance scenes *cannot* work in tabletop games!
I disagree on this notion on two facts alone. 1. Players can easily grow in battle and in times of peace, growing connections with one another is the whole point of tabletop gaming. Not to mention for someone who has MANY posts here. I raise my eyes in bewilderment in this next coming post. ...
Quote from: yosemitemike on July 17, 2024, 05:03:09 PMEven if I wanted to do that as GM, a lot of players will not be happy about sitting around being bored while the one player with the romance subplot plays that out
. If everyone is at a table, you should be willing to give the spotlight to particular players in a session, not so much that it is overwhelming, but if a romance sub-plot is a way to give spotlight, that shouldn't be an issue. Excelling in role playing after all, should be encouraged and rewarded. A GM should be able to articulate how much they should shone the spotlight to what character (if necessary) and be able to tell if someone is trying to hog the spotlight. Lastly, it shouldn't be that hard to at least give them a one-on-one session that's off to the side.
Though I think we can all agree, I'm pretty sure everything I said is probably more (attempts) at useful advice than that gods forsaken book. That's my two cents on GMing romance, Zer0 out.
Quote from: Elfdart on July 21, 2024, 11:39:06 PMCourting, romance, trim hunting and the like come up once in a while but I would never act it out in character. It's a matter of "the tavern wench invites [insert name of PC] to her room" or "Lady Summerisle and her guardian accept the marriage proposal from [insert name of PC]". There are in-game reasons for courting (a character really wants someone's lands and title, for example) and skirt-chasing (bars, clubs, public baths and whorehouses have always been goldmines for information), but play-acting it? That's just fucking weird.
Quote from: Omega on July 23, 2024, 05:37:30 AMSame. Who is playing out sex scenes at a table that isnt a one-on-one session? WoD players?
Just to clarify here, "romance" isn't remotely the same as "sex scene".
I would never play out a sex scene, but I've played out romantic interaction. In genres like James Bond or Buffy the Vampire Slayer (and many others), there is constant witty banter that is suggestive or flirtatious. And when I'm running the James Bond 007 RPG or the Buffy the Vampire Slayer RPG, suggestive banter is part of the fun.
I played Anyanka (from the show) in a BtVS RPG one-shot at DunDraCon this spring, and I said a ton of inappropriate sexual references, because as a thousand-year-old demon in a teenage body, that's Anya's schtick, and it's funny.
Like with any aspect of play, some people might not like that sort of thing - it's a matter of taste. My point is just that casual dialog between romantic interests is a normal part of a lot of action/adventure media - from Conan to James Bond to Buffy and so forth.
Quote from: Zer0co00l on July 23, 2024, 05:59:08 PMQuote from: yosemitemike on July 17, 2024, 05:03:09 PMRomance stories work in many sorts of media but there's a basic problem with them in tabletop rpgs. All romance scenes will inevitably focus on one or two characters with the rest of the characters not being able to be involved in any meaningful way. That's fine in a TV show or movie with a main character but it doesn't really work in a tabletop rpg. The one or two PCs involved in that romance story are involved while everyone else sit around waiting for it to be over. Even if I wanted to do that as GM, a lot of players will not be happy about sitting around being bored while the one player with the romance subplot plays that out. It won't happen once either. For the romance to be meaningful at all, this would have to happen multiple times over an extended period. I suspect that some players who want a romance story for their character are asking for that, at least in part, for this very reason. They know it will force the spotlight on to them repeatedly and that's what they want. They want to be the main character. That's fine for a 1 on 1 game but most games involve a group of players who are all here to play not be audiences for your romance scenes.
Now making his debut live on the repgsite, Zerocool ishere to disagree with this notion that romance scenes *cannot* work in tabletop games!
I disagree on this notion on two facts alone. 1. Players can easily grow in battle and in times of peace, growing connections with one another is the whole point of tabletop gaming. Not to mention for someone who has MANY posts here. I raise my eyes in bewilderment in this next coming post. ...
Quote from: yosemitemike on July 17, 2024, 05:03:09 PMEven if I wanted to do that as GM, a lot of players will not be happy about sitting around being bored while the one player with the romance subplot plays that out
. If everyone is at a table, you should be willing to give the spotlight to particular players in a session, not so much that it is overwhelming, but if a romance sub-plot is a way to give spotlight, that shouldn't be an issue. Excelling in role playing after all, should be encouraged and rewarded. A GM should be able to articulate how much they should shone the spotlight to what character (if necessary) and be able to tell if someone is trying to hog the spotlight. Lastly, it shouldn't be that hard to at least give them a one-on-one session that's off to the side.
Though I think we can all agree, I'm pretty sure everything I said is probably more (attempts) at useful advice than that gods forsaken book. That's my two cents on GMing romance, Zer0 out.
I can see that. That is not my style, but characters in close proximity developing relationships as they go through combat together can enrich a gaming experience. I wouldn't develop something into explicit sexuality, though, or let the plays devolve a campaign into something like that.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 23, 2024, 12:03:08 PMI think they hear/read Dungeon and think of their BDSM fantasies.
Hilariously back in the late 80s I was in a video store and in the adult section spotted a VHS called Dungeon Master. Take a wild guess what it was not about... yeah...
And around the same time there was a movie called Dungeonmaster with Richard Moll as a sorcerer.
Quote from: Omega on July 24, 2024, 08:57:32 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on July 23, 2024, 12:03:08 PMI think they hear/read Dungeon and think of their BDSM fantasies.
Hilariously back in the late 80s I was in a video store and in the adult section spotted a VHS called Dungeon Master. Take a wild guess what it was not about... yeah...
And around the same time there was a movie called Dungeonmaster with Richard Moll as a sorcerer.
But now they want to inflict their fantasies on those who don't share them.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 24, 2024, 10:40:22 PMQuote from: Omega on July 24, 2024, 08:57:32 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on July 23, 2024, 12:03:08 PMI think they hear/read Dungeon and think of their BDSM fantasies.
Hilariously back in the late 80s I was in a video store and in the adult section spotted a VHS called Dungeon Master. Take a wild guess what it was not about... yeah...
And around the same time there was a movie called Dungeonmaster with Richard Moll as a sorcerer.
But now they want to inflict their fantasies on those who don't share them.
Which is coincidentally, the same problem with Furries. It doesn't bother people that they do the sexual fetish, it bothers people that they are constantly trying to proselytize and get others to join them. It is like a sexual Jehovah's Witness knocking on your door.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 25, 2024, 12:34:08 AMQuote from: GeekyBugle on July 24, 2024, 10:40:22 PMQuote from: Omega on July 24, 2024, 08:57:32 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on July 23, 2024, 12:03:08 PMI think they hear/read Dungeon and think of their BDSM fantasies.
Hilariously back in the late 80s I was in a video store and in the adult section spotted a VHS called Dungeon Master. Take a wild guess what it was not about... yeah...
And around the same time there was a movie called Dungeonmaster with Richard Moll as a sorcerer.
But now they want to inflict their fantasies on those who don't share them.
Which is coincidentally, the same problem with Furries. It doesn't bother people that they do the sexual fetish, it bothers people that they are constantly trying to proselytize and get others to join them. It is like a sexual Jehovah's Witness knocking on your door.
I've managed to make the Jehovah's Witness to stop knocking on my door... By being REALLY rude and threatening to denounce them (it's a crime here in México).
Somehow I doubt you can manage the woke or furries to stop injecting their degeneracy on your entertainment. Being rude only gets you branded as an istophobe.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 25, 2024, 12:34:08 AMQuote from: GeekyBugle on July 24, 2024, 10:40:22 PMQuote from: Omega on July 24, 2024, 08:57:32 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on July 23, 2024, 12:03:08 PMI think they hear/read Dungeon and think of their BDSM fantasies.
Hilariously back in the late 80s I was in a video store and in the adult section spotted a VHS called Dungeon Master. Take a wild guess what it was not about... yeah...
And around the same time there was a movie called Dungeonmaster with Richard Moll as a sorcerer.
But now they want to inflict their fantasies on those who don't share them.
Which is coincidentally, the same problem with Furries. It doesn't bother people that they do the sexual fetish, it bothers people that they are constantly trying to proselytize and get others to join them. It is like a sexual Jehovah's Witness knocking on your door.
I live in the fucked-up state of Florida, and I have never once had to deal with furries. You must be doing something to attract that crowd.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 25, 2024, 02:35:58 AMI live in the fucked-up state of Florida, and I have never once had to deal with furries.
It's too hot in Florida to be a furry.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 24, 2024, 10:38:16 AMThat is not my style, but characters in close proximity developing relationships as they go through combat together can enrich a gaming experience.
I'd go a step beyond and say that in coed parties, this is what probably would happen. The average D&D adventurer is a fit, probably attractive individual in their physical prime, usually single, and they wouldn't be adventurers if they weren't prone to high-risk behavior. Take those kind of people and put them in isolated locations, where they're doing risky activities and getting frequent adrenaline rushes, and you would definitely expect passions to be running wild.
On topic though, this is a perfect example of where I'm perfectly happy to suspend disbelief. Yeah, adventurers would probably have extremely active and turbulent love lives, but it's not what almost anyone wants out of the game, so we just let that part be unrealistic so the game doesn't suck.
Also, I think that even if you did want to have this in your game for the sake of realism, most of these "romance in RPG" books get it wrong. They tend to conceive of PC romances the way the authors think modern romance should go, with lots of open communication, respecting each other's boundaries, commitment and support etc. I suspect adventurers would be a lot more like drug-addled college kids falling in and out of love every other week.
Quote from: ForgottenF on July 25, 2024, 09:12:46 AMQuote from: Cathode Ray on July 24, 2024, 10:38:16 AMThat is not my style, but characters in close proximity developing relationships as they go through combat together can enrich a gaming experience.
I'd go a step beyond and say that in coed parties, this is what probably would happen. The average D&D adventurer is a fit, probably attractive individual in their physical prime, usually single, and they wouldn't be adventurers if they weren't prone to high-risk behavior. Take those kind of people and put them in isolated locations, where they're doing risky activities and getting frequent adrenaline rushes, and you would definitely expect passions to be running wild.
On topic though, this is a perfect example of where I'm perfectly happy to suspend disbelief. Yeah, adventurers would probably have extremely active and turbulent love lives, but it's not what almost anyone wants out of the game, so we just let that part be unrealistic so the game doesn't suck.
Also, I think that even if you did want to have this in your game for the sake of realism, most of these "romance in RPG" books get it wrong. They tend to conceive of PC romances the way the authors think modern romance should go, with lots of open communication, respecting each other's boundaries, commitment and support etc. I suspect adventurers would be a lot more like drug-addled college kids falling in and out of love every other week.
Bolding mine.
This is something that can be worked with. People confusing love and lust and just release. Post combat release of tension by sex between party members is realistic as an in game justification. The reverse can also happen in that player characters or NPCs would not want to be touched at all. This could be a welcome subplot or an unwelcome distraction depending on the players at the table - definitely worth discussing in Session Zero.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 25, 2024, 10:10:16 AMQuote from: ForgottenF on July 25, 2024, 09:12:46 AMQuote from: Cathode Ray on July 24, 2024, 10:38:16 AMThat is not my style, but characters in close proximity developing relationships as they go through combat together can enrich a gaming experience.
I'd go a step beyond and say that in coed parties, this is what probably would happen. The average D&D adventurer is a fit, probably attractive individual in their physical prime, usually single, and they wouldn't be adventurers if they weren't prone to high-risk behavior. Take those kind of people and put them in isolated locations, where they're doing risky activities and getting frequent adrenaline rushes, and you would definitely expect passions to be running wild.
On topic though, this is a perfect example of where I'm perfectly happy to suspend disbelief. Yeah, adventurers would probably have extremely active and turbulent love lives, but it's not what almost anyone wants out of the game, so we just let that part be unrealistic so the game doesn't suck.
Also, I think that even if you did want to have this in your game for the sake of realism, most of these "romance in RPG" books get it wrong. They tend to conceive of PC romances the way the authors think modern romance should go, with lots of open communication, respecting each other's boundaries, commitment and support etc. I suspect adventurers would be a lot more like drug-addled college kids falling in and out of love every other week.
Bolding mine.
This is something that can be worked with. People confusing love and lust and just release. Post combat release of tension by sex between party members is realistic as an in game justification. The reverse can also happen in that player characters or NPCs would not want to be touched at all. This could be a welcome subplot or an unwelcome distraction depending on the players at the table - definitely worth discussing in Session Zero.
Quote from: ForgottenF on July 25, 2024, 09:12:46 AMQuote from: Cathode Ray on July 24, 2024, 10:38:16 AMThat is not my style, but characters in close proximity developing relationships as they go through combat together can enrich a gaming experience.
I'd go a step beyond and say that in coed parties, this is what probably would happen. The average D&D adventurer is a fit, probably attractive individual in their physical prime, usually single, and they wouldn't be adventurers if they weren't prone to high-risk behavior. Take those kind of people and put them in isolated locations, where they're doing risky activities and getting frequent adrenaline rushes, and you would definitely expect passions to be running wild.
On topic though, this is a perfect example of where I'm perfectly happy to suspend disbelief. Yeah, adventurers would probably have extremely active and turbulent love lives, but it's not what almost anyone wants out of the game, so we just let that part be unrealistic so the game doesn't suck.
Also, I think that even if you did want to have this in your game for the sake of realism, most of these "romance in RPG" books get it wrong. They tend to conceive of PC romances the way the authors think modern romance should go, with lots of open communication, respecting each other's boundaries, commitment and support etc. I suspect adventurers would be a lot more like drug-addled college kids falling in and out of love every other week.
Childless, danger hair, gender confused & in a policule authors who know jack shit about romance, lasting relationships, commitment, fidelity or monogamy.
Quote from: ForgottenF on July 25, 2024, 09:12:46 AMAlso, I think that even if you did want to have this in your game for the sake of realism, most of these "romance in RPG" books get it wrong. They tend to conceive of PC romances the way the authors think modern romance should go, with lots of open communication, respecting each other's boundaries, commitment and support etc. I suspect adventurers would be a lot more like drug-addled college kids falling in and out of love every other week.
How many such books are there? And how many do you know the content of?
Personally, I've never read or even skimmed a book just on romance in RPGs. I'm only aware of two - "How to GM Romance" (from the original post of this thread) and the _Book of Erotic Fantasy_ (2003). I've seen a minor sidebar on romance in a few games (like James Bond 007, Teenagers from Outer Space, Buffy) and GM advice books, but they tend to not say much.
I'm not sure what adventurer romance would really be like. Then again, there are parts of RPGs where realism is less important for my groups - like disease, or food, or wounds. In most games, I'd put romance as one of those. If the player wants, it's fine for them to ignore their PCs sexual urges and be unrealistically asexual.
Come to think of it, they could have used this as more of an incentive in the good old choose your own adventure gaming books, like fighting fantasy. It skips the awkwardness, but I don't know of a single one with romance. 😄
Quote from: jhkim on July 25, 2024, 02:54:41 PMQuote from: ForgottenF on July 25, 2024, 09:12:46 AMAlso, I think that even if you did want to have this in your game for the sake of realism, most of these "romance in RPG" books get it wrong. They tend to conceive of PC romances the way the authors think modern romance should go, with lots of open communication, respecting each other's boundaries, commitment and support etc. I suspect adventurers would be a lot more like drug-addled college kids falling in and out of love every other week.
How many such books are there? And how many do you know the content of?
Personally, I've never read or even skimmed a book just on romance in RPGs. I'm only aware of two - "How to GM Romance" (from the original post of this thread) and the _Book of Erotic Fantasy_ (2003). I've seen a minor sidebar on romance in a few games (like James Bond 007, Teenagers from Outer Space, Buffy) and GM advice books, but they tend to not say much.
I'm not sure what adventurer romance would really be like. Then again, there are parts of RPGs where realism is less important for my groups - like disease, or food, or wounds. In most games, I'd put romance as one of those. If the player wants, it's fine for them to ignore their PCs sexual urges and be unrealistically asexual.
There's a fair few out there. In addition to those two, there's "Love and Sex in the Ninth World" for Numenera and tons of fanmade guides and expansion books, like "GURPS - Sex", "Nymphology - Blue Magic" or "The Book of Unlawful Carnal Knowledge". In fairness, most of those are taking a crass, jokey approach to coming up with sex rules, and are more often than not meant to be a book you read for cheap laughs rather than a serious game supplement.
I was more thinking of stuff like the OP, "Kinks and Cantrips", homebrews like this (https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/1ant37o/a_pact_of_passion_oath_of_passion_paladin_and/) and this (https://www.reddit.com/r/worldbuilding/comments/18opr6i/nsfw_church_of_ange_an_organization_and_its_minor/), or the "Tome of Endless Romance" which occasionally turns up on the banner ads here. I don't buy these books, so I won't claim to have cover-to-covered them, but I do usually skim through free pdfs and quickstarts or watch reviews where they're available. My above comment was a case of observing a general trend and reading between the lines. Mentally insert "My impression is" at the beginning of the sentence if you like.
Talking about the mental state of D&D adventurers is necessarily speculative, because (as I never grow tired of pointing out) there isn't a historical or real-world analogue for that lifestyle. Personally I think the assumption that the adventuring life would attract well-adjusted and emotionally stable people --or allow them to remain that way-- is one of the bigger suspensions of disbelief involved in that style of fantasy gaming, and
I'm fine with that. Yeah, you could run your tabletop campaign like "Darkest Dungeon", where the adventuring life is a traumatic meat-grinder that takes already desperate people, chews them up, and spits them out broken, maimed or dead, but it doesn't sound much fun to me.
Quote from: Trond on July 25, 2024, 04:46:49 PMCome to think of it, they could have used this as more of an incentive in the good old choose your own adventure gaming books, like fighting fantasy. It skips the awkwardness, but I don't know of a single one with romance
100%. People are way more willing to drop their defenses and engage with this kind of content privately or anonymously than they are in person. There's a reason why most ERP is done via chatrooms and message boards.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 24, 2024, 10:40:22 PMBut now they want to inflict their fantasies on those who don't share them.
That is always the case even with normal D&D.
Remember the push to "Clean up D&D" remove all the "smut" so "People will respect us!"? That? Yeah. And more. Theres always going to be pople who take it too far. The "muh immershun!" nutcases, some of whom want to "bleed" the line between player and character till they ARE the character.
Quote from: Omega on July 26, 2024, 02:45:04 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on July 24, 2024, 10:40:22 PMBut now they want to inflict their fantasies on those who don't share them.
That is always the case even with normal D&D.
Remember the push to "Clean up D&D" remove all the "smut" so "People will respect us!"? That? Yeah. And more. Theres always going to be pople who take it too far. The "muh immershun!" nutcases, some of whom want to "bleed" the line between player and character till they ARE the character.
The Christian puritans were at least consistent, they weren't removing "smut" only to insert their own degenerate smut back.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 25, 2024, 02:35:58 AMI live in the fucked-up state of Florida,
Hailing from New Jersey, I found reading this strange.
I'll take tornado alley over the hurricane highway any day. :-)
Regarding romance, I love the banter in my current game. The flirting and innuendo is much more fun than the actual fade to black parts.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 26, 2024, 06:44:22 PMQuote from: HappyDaze on July 25, 2024, 02:35:58 AMI live in the fucked-up state of Florida,
Hailing from New Jersey, I found reading this strange.
Strange that I live in Florida, or strange that I question that Furries are in-your-face everywhere?
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 27, 2024, 10:15:45 PMQuote from: Cathode Ray on July 26, 2024, 06:44:22 PMQuote from: HappyDaze on July 25, 2024, 02:35:58 AMI live in the fucked-up state of Florida,
Hailing from New Jersey, I found reading this strange.
Strange that I live in Florida, or strange that I question that Furries are in-your-face everywhere?
Probably because they arent everywhere. But its become popular thing to hate or commit violence against. Yesterdays geeks and nerds are today's bullies and skinhead wanna-bes.