GURPS 4/e doesn't need 'fixing'.

It never did.

Most of the complaints I see about it are people whininbg about how it is marketing and that if it was prssented in a different way theior friends might play it. That mostly boils down to:  "My players have a small imagination so if doesn't look like D&D they won't try it"

The similiar constant complaint seems to be about character creation being difficult.

It really isn't.

The templates in various books or pdfs make it easier - but you don't really need them. Recently I had a player completely NEW to GURPS figure out character creation with just a copy of GURPS LITE 4/e. For the specialized skills it didn't mention - he e-mailed me questions and I gave him answers from the books I had - after all he was making a Merchant captain for our STAR TREK game.

So, what the complaint about character creation really translates to is: "I am used to a game book telling me what I have based on Class system. GURPS doesn't have that - I'm confused now and lost"

Thats gamers admitting they like being told what to do and they don't want to think or decide for themselves what to do.

The GURPS books and writers give the gamer more credit for intelligence than other games do.  I don't see that as a fault or problem.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;532031GURPS 4/eThe GURPS books and writers give the gamer more credit for inmtelligence than other games do.  I don't see that as a fault or problem.

It's a problem if you're actually trying to make some money by selling the system to people... many of whom do not want the sort of mental exercise you describe in their entertainment.

Quote from: Simlasa;532045It's a problem if you're actually trying to make some money by selling the system to people... many of whom do not want the sort of mental exercise you describe in their entertainment.

Don't you get it. GURPS players are just superior to us lowly d20 shlubs. Koltar thinks so and he's openly GURPS loving. So it must be true.

No, those of us who are d20ers just aren't smart enough to be able to handle what GURPS has to offer all of us. :rolleyes:

Quote from: PaladinCA;532046Don't you get it. GURPS players are just superior to us lowly d20 shlubs. Koltar thinks so and he's openly GURPS loving. So it must be true.

No, those of us who are d20ers just aren't smart enough to be able to handle what GURPS has to offer all of us. :rolleyes:

You just don't have the IMNTELLIGENCE!

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531906My dad loves that show.  And I'm always telling him that no one working for NCIS is remotely like her or works in such an office.

The episode where she had to actually comply with agency dress code was pretty bizarre.

JG

Quote from: Claudius;531983As a former fan of GURPS who has renounced  the system, this is my opinion.

First of all, some GURPS fans seem to be under the delusion that if it weren't for Munchkin, GURPS wouldn't have lost its former share of the market and would be selling better. If only SJG supported GURPS more, it would return to its old days of glory.

This is not true. Since it was released, GURPS 4th is selling worse than GURPS 3rd, this is a fact, and SJG reacted like it should have, that is, reducing the support of GURPS and increasing the support of the things that did sell, like for example Munchkin.

So the question is, why is GURPS 4th selling worse than GURPS 3rd? I think that rules-wise, 4th is a better edition than 3rd, I like some of the rules changes so much that I preferred them over my houserules for 3rd. But not everything is perfect with GURPS 4th, and the exact problem dawned on me when I finally ran a GURPS 4th game. The problem is that GURPS has become too bloated. It's not an exclusive problem of GURPS 4th, GURPS 3rd was bloated too, but I think GURPS 4th was the straw that broke the camel's back. Every succesive edition of GURPS has become more and more bloated, until the fans said enough. Character creation is a chore, you get a long list of skills, advantages and disadvantages, most of which will not be relevant to the campaign you want to play. A lot of GMs and players don't want that, they want chargen to be as fast as possible, they want to be done with it as soon as possible and actually get to play the game. This is, in my opinion, why GURPS is losing sales more and more.

The solution? I would have a look at GURPS competitors, BRP and Savage Worlds (not at HERO, HERO is done unless they realize they have the same problem as GURPS). In spite of the Big Golden Book, the point of BRP was never to have a generic universal system, the point was to have one system for several different games. Although the core system of Call of Cthulhu, Stormbringer and RuneQuest is the same, every game has its own flavor, and the most importantly, you don't have to decide which skills or advantages are available or not, character creation is very straightforward in these games. Regarding Savage Worlds, they have always tried not to go overboard with the rules, its emphasis has always been on plug-and-play settings.

The modern gamer is generally a thirty or forty-something, with a wife/husband and children, who no longer has the time for games like GURPS or HERO. If instead of the two big GURPS corebook, you got one powered by GURPS manual tailored to a setting, with just the relevant rules for that setting and NO MORE, well, I wonder, would it do better?

As a HERO fan who's starting to feel the same way about HERO System as you do GURPS, I concur.  Not so much that there is no value in a universal system - Hero Games did OK when they finally made "Champions" a universal system for all lines in 4th Edition - but in terms of the bloat.  In my review of HERO 6E on RPG.net, I said that the decoupling of "Figured" secondary stats from Primary Characteristics led to having to buy a lot of stuff - including OCV (chance to hit) and DCV (chance to not get hit) separately before skill levels and the like led to point inflation, or needing more points to get the same quality of character or less.  And even though they increased starting character points to compensate, it still adds up to more time and calculation and complicates things unnecessarily.  And if you're trying to both get new players and keep the guys who liked the last edition just fine, the last thing you want to do is complicate things unnecessarily.

JG

Quote from: estar;532013I know people have different opinions on complexity. My opinion is that the core of GURPS isn't that complex. See GURPS lite. The problem is in your second paragraph. It is the sheer wealth of options. And the need to distill it for a particular campaign by players AND referees.

That's pretty much what I've said. GURPS is smooth enough once you start playing. The problem is that it takes a fucking eternity to start playing, especially when you only have one copy and 4-5 players.

Which is why an effective, free-to-download character generator would help a lot. For me anyway.

Quote from: Claudius;531983First of all, some GURPS fans seem to be under the delusion that if it weren't for Munchkin, GURPS wouldn't have lost its former share of the market and would be selling better. If only SJG supported GURPS more, it would return to its old days of glory.

If it weren't for Munchkins, SJGames would have been out of business a long time ago.

Quote from: Claudius;531983But not everything is perfect with GURPS 4th, and the exact problem dawned on me when I finally ran a GURPS 4th game. The problem is that GURPS has become too bloated. It's not an exclusive problem of GURPS 4th, GURPS 3rd was bloated too, but I think GURPS 4th was the straw that broke the camel's back. Every succesive edition of GURPS has become more and more bloated, until the fans said enough. Character creation is a chore, you get a long list of skills, advantages and disadvantages, most of which will not be relevant to the campaign you want to play. A lot of GMs and players don't want that, they want chargen to be as fast as possible, they want to be done with it as soon as possible and actually get to play the game. This is, in my opinion, why GURPS is losing sales more and more.

The GURPS rules say not to add everything that's listed in the book to your character.    That is the lamest excuse I ever heard for crapping out on GURPS: "There's too many skills in this book.  There's too many traits.  Blah blah."  Simple answer: "Don't use them."  Even simpler answer: "You don't have enough points to spend anyway for them."  Anyway, either you want to play a detailed character, or you want to play a cardboard character.  GURPS doesn't care either way.

Quote from: Claudius;531983The solution?

Here we go.  Drumroll...

Quote from: Claudius;531983I would have a look at GURPS competitors, BRP and Savage Worlds (not at HERO, HERO is done unless they realize they have the same problem as GURPS). In spite of the Big Golden Book, the point of BRP was never to have a generic universal system, the point was to have one system for several different games. Although the core system of Call of Cthulhu, Stormbringer and RuneQuest is the same, every game has its own flavor, and the most importantly, you don't have to decide which skills or advantages are available or not, character creation is very straightforward in these games. Regarding Savage Worlds, they have always tried not to go overboard with the rules, its emphasis has always been on plug-and-play settings.

How would you compare GURPS 2nd Edition then with BRP and SW?  Why undo what GURPS 4th Edition has in it?  Anyway, if GURPS is chopped away so that it becomes another BRP or SW, then where do players go that want more realism/simulation?

Quote from: Claudius;531983The modern gamer is generally a thirty or forty-something, with a wife/husband and children, who no longer has the time for games like GURPS or HERO. If instead of the two big GURPS corebook, you got one powered by GURPS manual tailored to a setting, with just the relevant rules for that setting and NO MORE, well, I wonder, would it do better?

They'll be playing whatever rules they originally learned on.  The question is, what set of rules will they pass down to their kids?  It would kind of suck if the old farts played GURPS 4th and then passed down only BRP Cthulhu to their kids because "You kids just won't have the necessary IQ or time needed to play a system like GURPS.

I'd like to know though how many kids (age 16-20) are playing HarnMaster.

Quote from: James Gillen;532055As a HERO fan who's starting to feel the same way about HERO System as you do GURPS, I concur.  Not so much that there is no value in a universal system - Hero Games did OK when they finally made "Champions" a universal system for all lines in 4th Edition - but in terms of the bloat.

What is your opinion of HERO (BR) compared to the full-on 6th Edition rules?

Quote from: Claudius;531983The modern gamer is generally a thirty or forty-something, with a wife/husband and children, who no longer has the time for games like GURPS or HERO. If instead of the two big GURPS corebook, you got one powered by GURPS manual tailored to a setting, with just the relevant rules for that setting and NO MORE, well, I wonder, would it do better?

Worked great for Transhuman Space, I thought.

Quote from: James Gillen;532050The episode where she had to actually comply with agency dress code was pretty bizarre.

JG

The REAL NCIS invited the actress to their headquarters and loves the character that she plays.
Also, Pauley Perrette really knows what she is talking about when in character - her real life college degree is in forensics.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;532094What is your opinion of HERO (BR) compared to the full-on 6th Edition rules?

Didn't see the one for 6th Edition, but I did see the previous Sidekick for 5th Edition, and the self-contained PS 238 RPG.  Both were good examples of how you could make a good, easily-digested version of HERO System that was not only affordable but could be easily carried without having to strap it to your chest like an armor breastplate.  

JG

Quote from: The Butcher;532005Word. If anything, Munchkin is probably keeping GURPS alive, by dint of keeping SJG afloat.

Agreed.

QuoteI don't know. Those would still be some pretty hefty books. I find it hard to imagine a way to dial down the complexity of GURPS without, well, without it ceasing to be GURPS, to feel like GURPS.

Not only do I think it can be done, it has already been done: the Captain Alatriste RPG. The system is obviously a GURPS derivative, but it does away with all the unnecessary complication (like they say in Savage Worlds, trim the fat). For example, there are no character points, you get a few characteristic points, some advantage points, get one skill at characteristic +2, two at characteristic +1, etc, et voilà, you're done! All the skills, advantages and disadvantages are relevant to the setting, no Scuba Diving skill and the such.

Is the Captain Alatriste RPG the model GURPS should follow? I wish it was, but I might be mistaking my wishes with reality. The game is well loved, and certainly played, but it's out of print, and like all historical games, it's a niche inside another niche. Is Flashing Blades popular?

QuoteThe main stumbling block for me is character generation.

Ditto. GURPS in play is very agile, even using the optional combat rules, but character generation is a chore, and boring. I could put up with chargen, since in theory you do it only once, the problem is that anytime you bought more skill levels, or any advantage, you had to recalculate the character point totals, and to me that felt like doing chargen again and again. :banghead:

Quote from: estar;532013I know people have different opinions on complexity. My opinion is that the core of GURPS isn't that complex. See GURPS lite. The problem is in your second paragraph. It is the sheer wealth of options. And the need to distill it for a particular campaign by players AND referees.

Agreed. GURPS chargen is not complex, is a chore, and boring, but not complex. And yes, one of the problems is the very freedom it gives you to create any character. That freedom is too much, too many options.

Quote from: Claudius;532245Agreed. GURPS chargen is not complex, is a chore, and boring, but not complex. And yes, one of the problems is the very freedom it gives you to create any character. That freedom is too much, too many options.

I agree there definitely is choice paralysis it gets really to be a grind if you're creating a full aspected magic using character.