TheRPGSite

In another thread, we briefly touched the topic of fixing Gurps. In that thread I stated I don't have clue one how to do it. Now...I think I'm figuring it out.

The main issue with Gurps, in my opinion, is that it has lost it's status as a truly "Universal" system. Gurps is good for a very specific kinds of games and terrible for others.

What Gurps is Good At:

Gurps is best at anything where realism or a realistic treatment is warranted or expected. Real life is Gurps meter stick. It's not to say you cannot do things outside the realm of real life, but the game and it's authors treat and balance those situations realistically. This is different from most games which balance based on their in-game effect.

What Gurps is Bad At:

Gurps is bad at a myriad of things. Pick up and play. Cinematic or over the top combat. Story based play (i.e. storyteller, not story-games). Those are really symptoms of what Gurps is actually bad at.

Gurps is bad at emulating other game's play style. You cannot play a Gurps game that feels like Savage Worlds. You can't play a Gurps game that feels like D&D 4e. You can't have a Gurps game that feels like OD&D.


How to Fix Gurps:

So, the tin promised my plan for how to fix Gurps. Considering WotC stole my idea (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=296984&postcount=10) for D&D 4e... I might be pretty good at this :P

By fixing Gurps, I don't mean some personal fantasy release of the rules. I mean taking the existing line as it stands and trying to make a new edition that pleases as many old fans as possible, while trying to make it relevant to a broader audience.

Gurps hasn't changed, fundamentally, since first edition. Attributes, Skills, Advantages, Disadvantages. 3D6. Gurps is a game that was designed to play any Genre easily. It came out at a time when it seemed every genre and license publishers could get a hold of was getting it's own RPG. That's the main roadblock for Gurps. Genre is no longer a modern RPG's defining feature. Playstyle is.

Beginning from the core (ST, DX, IQ, HT), I would make everything else explicitly modular. The core set would simply have multiple playstyle sets (with genres suggestions therein) played off the same 3D6 mechanic. Splat books would expand on the core playstyles and genres as well as add entirely new ones.

The "Classic" set would use the same Realistic Skills, Advantages/Perks and Disadvantages we all know and love. Point balanced with an edge toward real-world difficulty. It would be suggested toward Hard Sci-Fi, Midieval Fantasy and Modern. Combat would be a detailed, tactical affair with a large common set of maneuvers for all characters.  This is directed right toward Gurps current fanbase and would be near or completely compatible with previous Gurps releases.

The Powers play style set would use simple skills, and game mechanic powers. Powers would relate almost completely to combat and the combat game's mechanical element. This would assume the use of a Hex grid. This would be designed to appeal to 'Game' focused players. The application of a character's unique mechanics is assumed to be exploited by players and combat is supposed to be the focus and main interest of the game. Suggested genre's would be Super Heroes, Dungeon Fantasy and Pulp. It would be meant to resemble D&D 4e and Savage Worlds type play.

The Genre set would use Templates, genre based Skills,  Cinamatic/Supernatural Advantages/Disadvantages. The skill lists would include things like Magic Spells and SCIENCE! and the point values would be based on usefulness in a particular genre. Supernatural Advantages and Disadvantages would allow for play of supernatural creatures. All Templates would be common literary tropes for their respective genres. Combat would be very simple with a lot of room for the interpretation of effects. Genre's supported would be Modern/Occult Horror and High Fantasy. This would be aimed at WoD, Call of Cthulhu players and Tolkien style fantasy.

Obviously, the playstyle sets are all just a collection of rules modules. Many of the modules are based on things that currently exist in Gurps. As such, players could easily mix and match modules between sets. The main point is that each playstyle set is complete within a genre(s), can stand alone and that each playstyle plays differently from another at the table.



So, that's my long winded idea. Any thoughts?

Quote from: KrakajakThe main issue with Gurps, in my opinion, is that it has lost it's status as a truly "Universal" system. Gurps is good for a very specific kinds of games and terrible for others.

Well, yeah. This isn't the 1980s, and we've kind of moved on from the naive assumptions of early roleplayers that you could make a single perfect system that would do everything. Just like you don't pull out Arkham Horror when you have 20 minutes to kill and you don't attempt to slake your epic strategizing thirst with Apples to Apples, different roleplaying games are going to be the thing you reach for when you want different things. HERO and GURPS survived the 80s at all because they are good at some things. But they never achieved their goals of being universally applicable, because the very concept is stupid.

QuoteGurps hasn't changed, fundamentally, since first edition. Attributes, Skills, Advantages, Disadvantages. 3D6.

Yeah, that's a problem too. We use "roll high" these days because it is fundamentally superior to rolling low. Yes, the absolute values of all the modifiers are the same, but people made that argument for THAC0 too. Addng bonuses to your roll is faster and easier to do after the fact than adding to the target number and re-subtracting. If you are putting out a "roll under" system in the 21st century, I feel sorry for you. If it really doesn't make any difference, get with the fucking program and go to roll-high like everyone else.

There is a reason why no dicepool system still uses variable target numbers. And that is because it sucks. And there is a reason why we don't have Armor Class count down anymore, and that is also because it sucks. So the fact that GURPS and HERO are still doing legacy crap like roll-under is sad. And it's a major part of why they are marginal these days.

-Frank

Quote from: KrakaJak;467503The main issue with Gurps, in my opinion, is that it has lost it's status as a truly "Universal" system. Gurps is good for a very specific kinds of games and terrible for others.

I have to disagree, GURPS 4th edition fixes this issue by adopting a variant of HERO system's base effect, advantages, and limitations.

This is a good example of how GURPS 4e handles this.

http://gurpsland.no-ip.org/pdf/GURPS4eAdvantages.pdf

QuoteCreate Air (+0%): Create 1 (Air) [5].
Notes: A plain-vanilla Create ability (Powers, p.92).
5 points.
Submitted by Gurps Fan

The Dungeon Fantasy line show how GURPS can be adapted to play D&D style fantasy, high hit points and all. (DF uses 250 point starting characters).

Quote from: KrakaJak;467503Gurps is bad at a myriad of things. Pick up and play. Cinematic or over the top combat. Story based play (i.e. storyteller, not story-games). Those are really symptoms of what Gurps is actually bad at.

I disagree about the Cinematic, they address the Cinematic at every turn in the genre books including books like Martial Arts and Low Tech. They have specific PDF lines like Action and Dungeon Fantasy that implement GURPS for cinematic play.

As for storyteller games I don't see the origin of that complaint. GURPS combat can be downgraded to simple contest of skills. Although it isn't as clear in 4e as it was in 3e.

The BIG issues of GURPS 4e is that it artificially limits it audience by not having a starting point for novices to pick up and run the game. For the same investment ($100) as D&D 4e you are faced with a ton of work to go through the options to make up your campaign and adventures.

If GURPS had a single book RPG implementing GURPS for Fantasy, another for Horror, and a third for Space. It would go a long way towards making it easy for gamers to switch over from D&D 4e and other RPGs.

Quote from: KrakaJak;467503Gurps is bad at emulating other game's play style. You cannot play a Gurps game that feels like Savage Worlds. You can't play a Gurps game that feels like D&D 4e. You can't have a Gurps game that feels like OD&D.

This complaint fails on two levels. First Savage Worlds is another universal system, like the HERO system, BRP, etc. Each of these has their own feel in handing  universal issues. Judging a universal system on how it handles the "feel" of another universal system is silly.

With that being said, if you what you are after is a more simplistic resolution then GURPS has in the form of contest of skills. Although it isn't spelled out clearly.

As for D&D 4e, or OD&D both of those can be implemented with GURPS. Nobody as really done it for D&D 4e because it is a ton of work but as the GURPS Advantages PDF show you can create a variety of powers and effects. As for OD&D, there is the Dungeon Fantasy line where the characters are designed to be highly resilient

How to Fix Gurps:

Quote from: KrakaJak;467503So, that's my long winded idea. Any thoughts?

Back in the day, there was GURPS 2nd edition, a boxed set of two stapled softbound books. For a AD&D player of the late 80s it was obvious what GURPS was bringing to the table by reading through the books.

A fantasy game where you can customize your character to your hearts content, a well designed combat system that mimic realistic decision and to add to it all you could throw some interesting thing from other genres easily.

While the core books gotten better with 3rd edition for 4th edition for a referee experienced with GURPS for a novice they pretty much sucked. GURPS Lite 3rd edition was barely adequate for allowing somebody to try refereeing GURPS. The 4th edition version did away with magic making it only useful as a novice player guide.

The GURPS Line as it stands now works fine for an experienced group and referee. Way better than 3rd edition in terms of utility and system.

But what I need to recruit my friend Josh in Pittsburgh is not GURPS lite but rather a single book for fantasy, (or horror, or space). A book that cover the same range of material as the other competitors in that genre. For fantasy that means; character creations, magic, combat, treasure, monster, and an adventure.

The book doesn't supplant the core books but rather implements them for that Genre. The person put down $20 to $40 for the single book, runs his game, like GURPS and starts buying the rest of the line. If not then SJ Games still has a sell where none would existed before.

Yeah, that's a problem too. We use "roll high" these days because it is fundamentally superior to rolling low.

Nonsense.  Roll under is far easier in play.  Most roll over players subtract their skill from the target number to find out what they need on the die anyhow.

GURPS is floundering because it's stuck in a comprehensive ultimate edition which makes it extremely intimidating as an entry point.  More over it's floundering becaus SJG doesn't want it to do better.  If they did they'd do some marketing and some good intro sets.  The upcoming Disc World might count, we'll see what they do with it.  Even so, silly goof ball fantasy isn't exactly what I'd call a compelling setting.

Let's see Reign of Steel as an intro.  Or Cyberpunk or at least Bane Storm which isn't compelling but is at least a generic fantasy entry point.  Take the current book, tack on GURPS Lite and the Magic rules from the basic set and away you go.

Now I've done a fair bit of work on a GURPS fix but it got pretty far from GURPS as I went.  For one thing all the stats are built from Advantages after the fact.  And it's roll over but not because that's inherently superior but because I wanted to do skill + 3d6 over target's resisting attribute as the core mechanic.

I'm not even sure what "floundering" means with respect to HERO.  It hasn't had the consistant publishing history of GURPS.  I'd guess it's doing as well now as it ever did in terms of support.

Quote from: KrakaJak;467503So, that's my long winded idea. Any thoughts?

My thoughts are that if you had written this during GURPS 3e, it would be very timely and useful. However, as of 4e, I do not agree with, well, any of your points.

QuoteGurps is bad at a myriad of things. Pick up and play. Cinematic or over the top combat. Story based play (i.e. storyteller, not story-games). Those are really symptoms of what Gurps is actually bad at.

GURPS is good at all of those things. I've literally run a pick up and play Transhuman Space game, even under 3e, and it went swimmingly. 4e, Powers, and Supers give you all the rules you need to be as over-the-top as you could possibly hope for.

QuoteGurps is bad at emulating other game's play style. You cannot play a Gurps game that feels like Savage Worlds. You can't play a Gurps game that feels like D&D 4e. You can't have a Gurps game that feels like OD&D.

GURPS can do all of those things, I'm just not sure why you would. Specifically, you could use GURPS Lite, invent a level progression chart, and you could be running OD&D inside of an hour, I think. Savage Worlds... is basically GURPS Lite. Seriously, it is. The GURPS quick start booklet that came with 2e was easily as Fast! Furious! and Fun! as Savage Worlds. 4e will not abandon you. Start with GURPS 4e Lite, add some customized Advantage packages, and pow! Savage Worlds. Complete with swingy combat and wonky initiative rules, if you want. -- It is true that GURPS would have trouble emulating SW's core mechanic that makes charactes with low (d4) stats more likely to succeed at slightly difficult (difficulty 6) tasks than an average one.

GURPS 4e could totally do D&D 4e. Of course, the result would be just as tedious. GURPS Powers doesn't come out and give you worked examples, but the structure is all there for your at-wills, dailies, and encounters. Most of your templates would start with 20 to 30 hit points, of course.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;467504Yeah, that's a problem too. We use "roll high" these days because it is fundamentally superior to rolling low. Yes, the absolute values of all the modifiers are the same, but people made that argument for THAC0 too. Addng bonuses to your roll is faster and easier to do after the fact than adding to the target number and re-subtracting. If you are putting out a "roll under" system in the 21st century, I feel sorry for you. If it really doesn't make any difference, get with the fucking program and go to roll-high like everyone else.

Brilliant theory! This probably also explains why BRP/CoC is such an abysmal failure, and why every edition of CoC features such a wildly different system. :rolleyes:

Really, Trollman, I enjoy your posts on game mechanics, man, but this is uninsightful and disappointing.

Quote from: The Butcher;467540Brilliant theory! This probably also explains why BRP/CoC is such an abysmal failure, and why every edition of CoC features such a wildly different system. :rolleyes:

Really, Trollman, I enjoy your posts on game mechanics, man, but this is uninsightful and disappointing.

The fact that BRP continues to use "roll under skill" instead of "add skill to roll, your TN is always 100" shows a simple lack of vision and a grognardian refusal to adapt to the modern era.

Yes, it's mathematically identical. But in the latter version, your degree of success is simply the end result. There's no end stage math. Even more important, if you forgot a modifier and have to add it in after the fact, you only have to remember the reported total, rather than having to remember the original die roll and the modified roll-under target number separately.

Percentile roll-under is intuitive to design. But so was THAC0, and for the same reason. It made "sense" that 1st Class Armor was the best and 3rd Class Armor was worse than that, just like it makes "sense" that if you have to roll under your skill of 30 that you have a 30% chance of success. But let's be real here: d20's handling of AC is superior. Similarly, if you have to beat 100 and you add that 30 to your roll, you still have that same 30% chance of success. It's just that you can then report all relevant information to the GM with a single number so that when he says "Oh, did you count the curse from the spider mummies?" and you admit that you did not, you can still glean everything you need from the number you reported to the table. It's just better. In the same way and for the same reason that getting rid of THAC0 is better than leaving it in.

I understand the nostalgia factor and how it was "good enough" for us when we were playing it in 1984, but for fuck's sake. It's 2011, and if you're still on the roll-under wagon that is fucking pathetic.

-Frank

I agree that adding comes easier to most people, than subtracting. I just think you're overblowing the relevance of this, in typical theRPGsite style.

Straight-up roll-under is just as easy as roll-over. The trick is applying modifiers to the target number, before rolling, rather than to the roll's results.

Quote from: Frank TrollmanBut they never achieved their goals of being universally applicable, because the very concept is stupid.

And you proved this by comparing a board game and a card game? I obviously don't agree, as has already been said by a couple posters who missed the point above...Gurps 4e can already do most of what I wrote as it is. It's just not explicit or user friendly about it.

I think think a generic game would could be even more dynamic with a roll-over resolution(like BESM 3e), but after 4 editions of roll under, the die hard fans would rightly cry foul. Gurps would lose a some of the unique advantages it has so I don't think over/under is much of a factor in its appeal.

The main problem with Gurps as it stands is presentation and the workload it places on it's players and GMs. It presents itself as a big long nigh unplayable list of shit that's able to tackle any genre. If they could bother doing most of the work for players in offering what to use and what no to use, they'd have a much more appealing game.

Quote from: estar;467525This is a good example of how GURPS 4e handles this.

Except that's a bad example from that (fan made) booklet. Here's a more common example from the same source:

QuoteAlmost Magic Missiles (+650%): Crushing Attack
1D+1 (Cosmic, Ignores DR, +300%; Surprise
Attack, +150%; Very Rapid Fire 5, +80%;
Increased ½ Range x10, +15%; Accurate 23,
+115%; No Knockback, -10%) [50]
Notes: Generates a ball of mystic force in your hand
that is thrust at your opponent, nearly always
hitting. The ball ignores your opponent's armor, and
it gives almost a 100% chance of hitting if you take
time to aim. Based on the D&D spell Magic
Missile. 50 points

Who the Fuck knows what any of that shit at the top means? I have the Powers book and it is totally useless to any player or GM who does not have 40 hours a week to dedicate to RPGs. You and Pawsplay seem to miss my main point in the OP: I already admit that a lot of what I propose is actually possible with the rules set. However, possible does not mean feasable, especially to a newcomer to the game.

Gurps: Dungeon Fantasy is almost there. If it was self contained and edited down for simplicities sake it would be amazing. As it is, it requires wading through the Basic Set as well as Powers to use. It's templates do retarded things like list skills as (Public Speaking (A) IQ+2 [1]-16†) even though the template has a listed IQ score and a stated total points cost. Don't show your math, just let me play. Reading a skill as (Public Speaking-16) goes a long way toward making a game more inviting.


Also, I don't know where people get this idea that Gurps Lite is somehow some great (or even decent) recruiting tool. Gurps Lite is a really shitty demo game, not a simplified version of the rules. The only thing it does is explain the core mechanic to people who don't own a corebook.

Frank's "roll under is OBJECTIVELY INFERIOR" line is of course, pure bullshit, but roll-under IS one of the fundamental reasons behind KrakaJak's mostly fair shortlist in the OP.

Roll-under is great for doing the kinds of low range, low power games that GURPS has always been so good at, the hard-boileds, the low fantasy, the Die Hard style cinematics, because it defines a fairly small, confined range of numbers.  Roll-over games suck at this kind of thing because inevitably, low power ranges feel meaningless because you're getting too close to the average.

Conversely though, the reason GURPS sucks so bad at high end is because you have this very same constraint. You are always confined to 3-18 as far as meaningful stat ranges go, and I think having an upper ceiling like that constrains the power level of the system unless you find ways of redefining the range for the genre in play, which is just unintuitive and awkward.  It sort of falls apart without a fairly distant upper ceiling.

I don't think though, that there's much to be done about it.  Changing gears from roll-under would be a pretty fundamental, "first principles" sort of change, enough that it wouldn't really be the same system any more and I think you'd wind up costing it's strengths to cure it's weaknesses.

Quote from: KrakaJak;467563Except that's a bad example from that (fan made) booklet. Here's a more common example from the same source:


Who the Fuck knows what any of that shit at the top means? I have the Powers book and it is totally useless to any player or GM who does not have 40 hours a week to dedicate to RPGs.

It says: "Notes: Generates a ball of mystic force in your hand
that is thrust at your opponent, nearly always
hitting. The ball ignores your opponent's armor, and
it gives almost a 100% chance of hitting if you take
time to aim. Based on the D&D spell Magic
Missile. 50 points"

What's so complicated about that? Once you know the damage, RoF, and Accuracy, which are always listed in attack stat blocks, that's really all there is to it. The rest is "system documentation" in case someone else wants to recreate the result. Which, by the way, most games simply can't do at all, so that's a feature. GURPS does a much better job at simulating D&D 4e than D&D 3e ever will.

Nope. I used to play GURPS and I currently play Champions weekly and if either game switched to roll-high, they would be better off. Arbitrarily high target numbers for task difficulty beats arbitarily penalty assessments to success rolls anyday.

Quote from: J Arcane;467566Conversely though, the reason GURPS sucks so bad at high end is because you have this very same constraint. You are always confined to 3-18 as far as meaningful stat ranges go, and I think having an upper ceiling like that constrains the power level of the system unless you find ways of redefining the range for the genre in play, which is just unintuitive and awkward.  It sort of falls apart without a fairly distant upper ceiling.

I don't think though, that there's much to be done about it.  Changing gears from roll-under would be a pretty fundamental, "first principles" sort of change, enough that it wouldn't really be the same system any more and I think you'd wind up costing it's strengths to cure it's weaknesses.

Additive systems do have a number of clear advantages - but it would be a pretty big departure from standard GURPs.

Potentially to address how the system works best for low-level cinematic realism, you could add different difficulties of roll-under e.g. typical task on 3d6, difficult 4d6, really difficult 5d6, and then allow the attribute/skill scale to expand beyond 18...

My only fix for GURPS would be to cut the skill list WAY down. Have a total skills list of maybe 30 skills, and a chart that shows different genres, with the skills available per genre. Kind of like how BESM 2e did.

Quote from: KrakaJak;467563Who the Fuck knows what any of that shit at the top means? I have the Powers book and it is totally useless to any player or GM who does not have 40 hours a week to dedicate to RPGs. You and Pawsplay seem to miss my main point in the OP: I already admit that a lot of what I propose is actually possible with the rules set. However, possible does not mean feasable, especially to a newcomer to the game.

GURPS Advantage is made by fans to show other fans how to build powers from scratch. If I wrote this up as part of handout I would basically include the ending paragraph which explains the power, that is 50 points to buy, and not show the math.

They do this with the GURPS Spaceship series which uses a modular system to easily construct ships. Pulver used GURPS Vehicles to build each module in such a way so that they just snap together.

Quote from: KrakaJak;467563Gurps: Dungeon Fantasy is almost there. If it was self contained and edited down for simplicities sake it would be amazing. As it is, it requires wading through the Basic Set as well as Powers to use. It's templates do retarded things like list skills as (Public Speaking (A) IQ+2 [1]-16†) even though the template has a listed IQ score and a stated total points cost. Don't show your math, just let me play. Reading a skill as (Public Speaking-16) goes a long way toward making a game more inviting.

You miss the point of templates which is a starting point for a character not a pre-generated character. The problem with Dungeon Fantasy is that they took the request for fantasy support too literally and tried to make it emulate D&D. Which meant character built on 250 points and stupidly long templates. If they stuck to 150 points then it could been a lot simpler.

Public Speaking-16 what good to know that? What happens if the person bumped their IQ by 1? Or down by 1? Explaining that 1 point get you whatever your IQ + 2 seem pretty straightforward. A well written template is a good compromise between free form building your own character and a pre-gen.

Quote from: KrakaJak;467563Also, I don't know where people get this idea that Gurps Lite is somehow some great (or even decent) recruiting tool. Gurps Lite is a really shitty demo game, not a simplified version of the rules. The only thing it does is explain the core mechanic to people who don't own a corebook.

with 3rd Edition Lite you can run a very basic fantasy game. All 4th edition lite is good for is to explainin the core mechanics.

Quote from: J ArcaneYou are always confined to 3-18 as far as meaningful stat ranges go...

Again, this is not really true, but how the rules are written, there is no explicit and easy information about high end skills and attributes.

Someone with the Archery skill at 35 has an epic mastery of archery. The benefit of doing so is being able to offset all kinds of penalties, making them able to make impossible shots (let's say a called headshot at extreme range after quick readying the weapon and not aiming). The rules never explicitly explain this. One of the problems with Gurps.

I offered some ideas previously in this thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=19860), where Elliot asked what could be done, and we answered, and he said actually he couldn't be bothered doing anything anyway. I hope this will be more productive...

The reason GURPS is a turd has nothing to do with it being roll under vs. roll over.  While roll over is generally more intuitive and additional is generally easier to do as mental math, the reason that GURPS sucks is what someone else posted:

QuoteAlmost Magic Missiles (+650%): Crushing Attack
1D+1 (Cosmic, Ignores DR, +300%; Surprise
Attack, +150%; Very Rapid Fire 5, +80%;
Increased ½ Range x10, +15%; Accurate 23,
+115%; No Knockback, -10%) [50]
Notes: Generates a ball of mystic force in your hand
that is thrust at your opponent, nearly always
hitting. The ball ignores your opponent's armor, and
it gives almost a 100% chance of hitting if you take
time to aim. Based on the D&D spell Magic
Missile. 50 points

What is this shit.  With only a passing familiarity with GURPS, I can see that the spell does 1d6 + 1 damage and has some sort of "cosmic" power source, which I'm guessing is basically arcane magic.  It also appears to ignore armor and cause no knockback.  But then it has a whole bunch of percentages and words that are probably important but I have no idea what they mean, and I'm overwhelmed.  GURPS is just too much work to deal with. (http://www.themook.net/rpg/examples/melee/index.php?id=one-basic)  Even in this simple combat setup in the link, the failure is self-evident.  When I play an RPG, I want a simple game that isn't going to give me a headache.  I can tell you right now that GURPS is not that game.

Quote from: B.T.;467610The reason GURPS is a turd has nothing to do with it being roll under vs. roll over.  While roll over is generally more intuitive and additional is generally easier to do as mental math, the reason that GURPS sucks is what someone else posted:

What is this shit.  With only a passing familiarity with GURPS, I can see that the spell does 1d6 + 1 damage and has some sort of "cosmic" power source, which I'm guessing is basically arcane magic.  It also appears to ignore armor and cause no knockback.  But then it has a whole bunch of percentages and words that are probably important but I have no idea what they mean, and I'm overwhelmed.  

Ignore them. They're just system documentation. Well, except the RoF part, which I assume you know what that means.

Fuck 'magic missile'.

 GURPS 4/e doesn't need 'fixing'.

There is nothing wrong with rolling 'under' the target number.

If you got a problem with that - its because you're to some other for years making you think the higher the number is the better so often that its like comparing the size of your manhood.

 Damn! No wonder I see more womenb trying and playing GUREPS thjan other game systems!

It just hit me that D&D and other similiar games are nothing but macho wankfest games more than half the time for stats-happy obsessed people.

GURPS is about the, not how 'hih' you roll or who has the biggest 'sword' in play.


- Ed C.

Ease up Ed I don't know whether to laugh or cringe.

4e fans are prone to over using power modifiers IMO.  Alternately you could go.

Magic Missile: 2d impaling (damage as heavy crossbow) ranged innate attack.  Magical (-20%) 13 points.

Accuraty 23 is absurd and the no knockback thing is ridiculous.  Rate of fire is okay but a weaker mage wouldn't have it.  If you bought it with a single use it'd be even cheaper.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;467504Well, yeah. This isn't the 1980s, and we've kind of moved on from the naive assumptions of early roleplayers that you could make a single perfect system that would do everything.

I agree. Even if I am a big fan of BRP, I wouldn't say that BRP can do every conceivable kind of game.

Quote from: The Butcher;467540Brilliant theory! This probably also explains why BRP/CoC is such an abysmal failure, and why every edition of CoC features such a wildly different system. :rolleyes:

Really, Trollman, I enjoy your posts on game mechanics, man, but this is uninsightful and disappointing.

He has a partial point, I think. I'm guessing that you don't see this as much of a problem playing CoC because usually there are not many modifiers involved in your average BRP roll. Usually you roll against your skill or attribute multiplied by some number, and nothing else.

So, it's easier comparing two numbers than adding them. If you don't use modifiers, BRP may be one of the fastest systems out there. When you use modifiers, BRP can be a bit harder. Also, bear in mind that in many versions you need to calculate fractions of your skill to see if you are rolling a critical hit or something ("Is 13 low enough to be a critical hit?").

Now, it's a question of good enough vs perfect. I can see why BRP could be improved if you change the mechanic from rolling under your % to adding 1d100+skill+modifiers and try to beat 100 as target number, with additional benefits the more you get over 100.

Actually, that is a question I'd love to see Frank answer :) How would you go into switching a BRP game (let's say CoC as it is one of the best known) into a roll-over system?

Quote from: Koltar;467618GURPS 4/e doesn't need 'fixing'.

There is nothing wrong with rolling 'under' the target number.

Dude, saying that something is right/wrong without any further explanation is a piss-poor debating technique.

QuoteIf you got a problem with that - its because you're to some other for years making you think the higher the number is the better so often that its like comparing the size of your manhood.

You never let your fans down.

QuoteDamn! No wonder I see more womenb trying and playing GUREPS thjan other game systems!

You cannot explain why most women here in Spain despised GURPS as being boring a sshit and why the line flopped miserably. But as BRP is huge around here, I guess we're not concerned about our dick size.

Quote from: Imperator;467661Actually, that is a question I'd love to see Frank answer :) How would you go into switching a BRP game (let's say CoC as it is one of the best known) into a roll-over system?

Interestingly, I have an article in Knights of the Dinner Table about doing exactly that. It's in issue #170. I used Eclipse Phase and maybe CoC as examples (sorry, it was published in January and I wrote it months before that, so it's not exactly fresh in my mind).

The quick and dirty is that you just announce that 100 is your new target number all the time. You roll the dice, and you add your skill. And for games like Eclipse Phase that keep track of "degree of success", you just use the last two digits of any successful roll. Any modifier that would raise your skill is added to your roll. Any modifier that would lower your skill is subtracted from your roll.

It's mathematically the same, but it makes degree of success calculations faster and makes calculating multiple modifiers (and especially recalculating modifiers) easier. We're not talking about the merits of dice
pools versus curved random number generators versus d20s here, we're literally just talking about hitting things with the absolute value sign a few times to reduce the number of math steps and required number reporting during play without changing the underlying probabilities.

This really is a no-brainer.

-Frank

Quote from: FrankTrollman;467662Interestingly, I have an article in Knights of the Dinner Table about doing exactly that. It's in issue #170. I used Eclipse Phase and maybe CoC as examples (sorry, it was published in January and I wrote it months before that, so it's not exactly fresh in my mind).

The quick and dirty is that you just announce that 100 is your new target number all the time. You roll the dice, and you add your skill. And for games like Eclipse Phase that keep track of "degree of success", you just use the last two digits of any successful roll. Any modifier that would raise your skill is added to your roll. Any modifier that would lower your skill is subtracted from your roll.

Cool :) Many thanks.

So, let's say I'm playing CoC and I want to stab a cultist in the face with my trusted Bowie knife (Knife skill 56%). So I roll 1d100+56 and if I reach 100 or more, I stab him.

What I don't get is how you calculate the chances of an impalinghit. I mean, in standard CoC you 1/5 of your 5 skill of getting a special success or a impalement. So, if I have 56% in Knife, i will get an impaling hit with 01-11. How can I translate that to a roll-over system? I don't see how you would use the last 2 digits of a successful roll.

Thanks for the answers, Frank.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;467504Well, yeahYeah, that's a problem too. We use "roll high" these days because it is fundamentally superior to rolling low. Yes, the absolute values of all the modifiers are the same, but people made that argument for THAC0 too. Addng bonuses to your roll is faster and easier to do after the fact than adding to the target number and re-subtracting. If you are putting out a "roll under" system in the 21st century, I feel sorry for you. If it really doesn't make any difference, get with the fucking program and go to roll-high like everyone else.

Bollocks.

Roll-over and roll-under are mathematically the same. The difference is only psychological.

Quote from: Claudius;467669Bollocks.

Roll-over and roll-under are mathematically the same. The difference is only psychological.

And it's the most important difference there is.

Quote from: David Johansen;467629Ease up Ed I don't know whether to laugh or cringe.

4e fans are prone to over using power modifiers IMO.  Alternately you could go.

Magic Missile: 2d impaling (damage as heavy crossbow) ranged innate attack.  Magical (-20%) 13 points.

Accuraty 23 is absurd and the no knockback thing is ridiculous.  Rate of fire is okay but a weaker mage wouldn't have it.  If you bought it with a single use it'd be even cheaper.

The point of the 50 point Magic Missile is to emulate D&D's magic missile. Which means it effectively hits across it's range and not effected by armor.

Crushing Attack 1D+1
The base innate attack

Cosmic, Ignores DR, +300%
This is allows the crushing attack to ignore DR. But the target still gets a defense roll.

Surprise Attack, +150%;
Target now doesn't get a defense roll.

Very Rapid Fire 5, +80%;
You can fire five of these.

Increased ½ Range x10, +15%;
The Innate Attack now does the full damage out to the max range (100 yards)

Accurate 23, +115%;
Not only negates the -10 range modifier out to a 100 years but give +16 to anybody trying to use this ability. Which means that even people with default skill will only miss on a 17 or 18.

No Knockback, -10%
Magic missile don't send their target flying backwards.



GURPS Advantages shows the math behind the powers. If I handed this to a player they would go huh? However it can be written up like this.

Magic Missile 1d+2, ROF 5, ACC 26, 1/2 D 100, Max 100, Ignore DR, Target gets no Defense, Target doesn't suffer knockback. Note: At Max Range you get +16 to Skill effectively you only miss on a 17, or critically fail on a 18.

Quote from: David Johansen;467526More over it's floundering becaus SJG doesn't want it to do better.  If they did they'd do some marketing and some good intro sets.

Obviously they would rather GURPS sold better, but there are other products with higher returns on the time and money they'd invest in them... so those products get the time and the money allocated to them. That's basic business sense.

QuoteThe upcoming Disc World might count, we'll see what they do with it.  Even so, silly goof ball fantasy isn't exactly what I'd call a compelling setting.

That's not really an accurate description of current Discworld, the problem it might have in the market is just how far away from generic fantasy it is now.

Quote from: Imperator;467665Cool :) Many thanks.

So, let's say I'm playing CoC and I want to stab a cultist in the face with my trusted Bowie knife (Knife skill 56%). So I roll 1d100+56 and if I reach 100 or more, I stab him.

What I don't get is how you calculate the chances of an impalinghit. I mean, in standard CoC you 1/5 of your 5 skill of getting a special success or a impalement. So, if I have 56% in Knife, i will get an impaling hit with 01-11. How can I translate that to a roll-over system? I don't see how you would use the last 2 digits of a successful roll.

Thanks for the answers, Frank.

For games that use a percentage of your success chance as a critical chance, it's best to use "magic numbers". Magic numbers are special numbers in the ones place on the percentile dice that make something awesome happen if you are already succeeding. The number of magic numbers you have is determined by what the divisor is supposed to be. So if you are doing a WFRP thing where 1/10th of your success rate is your crit chance, then you have one magic number. If you're doing CoC where 2/10ths of your success rate is your crit chance, then you have two magic numbers.

Which magic numbers you choose depend on how the game is supposed to handle rounding. So you might choose 0 as your magic number to round one way, or 9 as your magic number to round the other. If you round off in some funny way, then you might select something in the middle.

So let's consider our 56% skill character. Using a 01-100 percentile dice set-up with roll equal-or-less, that's a 56% chance of success (some formulations of percentile have a 56% skill granting a 55% or 57% chance of success). But we're doing roll-over, which means that you'll succeed on a literal roll of 45-100 on a 01-100 roll (or you could do it on a 44-99 on a 00-99 roll, different formulations of percentile systems do it differently, and it doesn't matter save that you have to be consistent. Use whatever makes sense to you). You could have it round down by picking 0 and 5 as your magic numbers. That way you'd impale on a literal roll of 45, 50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 75, 80, 85, 90, or 95 - precisely 11% of the time. If you decided that you wanted to calculate it differently and round up instead, you could have the magic numbers be 9 and 4 instead, and then you'd impale 12% of the time. And of course, if you decided that the breakpoint between 11% and 12% impale should be 57 or 58%, you can set the magic numbers accordingly to do that for you automagically.

This sort of thing is actually really convenient, because it means you don't ever have to do division at the table, and even if you get a big temporary modifier to your skill you aren't being asked to recalculate impalement chances.

-Frank

Quote from: Imperator;467665Cool :) Many thanks.

So, let's say I'm playing CoC and I want to stab a cultist in the face with my trusted Bowie knife (Knife skill 56%). So I roll 1d100+56 and if I reach 100 or more, I stab him.

What I don't get is how you calculate the chances of an impalinghit. I mean, in standard CoC you 1/5 of your 5 skill of getting a special success or a impalement. So, if I have 56% in Knife, i will get an impaling hit with 01-11. How can I translate that to a roll-over system? I don't see how you would use the last 2 digits of a successful roll.

Thanks for the answers, Frank.

Bear in mind it's been a while since I had the BRP rules in my head, so my details might be rusty.

If you're using the last two digits of 1d100+56, then you can use the last two digits in the normal way to determine crit success: rolling 101 - 111 is a crit (This assuming you count 00 as 100, so your target number is 101.).

To prove this works: You have an 11% chance of a crit, 45% of success, 44% of failure. So you roll your dice.

44% of the time, you will roll between 0 and 43. These add up to less than 101, so you fail. 11% of your rolls roll be between 44 and 55, which leave you with 01 through 11; your crit range. 45% of your rolls will be 56 - 100, leaving 12 - 56; your conventional success range.

(I know this makes the result curve slightly unintuitive, as it goes fail - crit - success, but that isn't a huge problem; it's mathematically identical to the standard method, and should work fine during play because you're looking for the same numbers as "normal" BRP.)

I like the magic number thing too, though!

Quote from: B.T.;467610What is this shit.

A GURPS power that's wildly overcomplicated for no good reason.

Also, Powers is full of pre-made abilities that you can just pick from a list if you're so inclined, so I disagree with the hyperbolic "forty hours a week to dedicate to the game" bit. I know it makes charming Internet hyperbole, but I don't dedicate ten hours a week to gaming and I get along with GURPS just fine.

As for the OP, I think the suggestions about essentially breaking GURPS into smaller, more genre-specific games in order to appeal to different player types is interesting but not really feasible market-wise.

I also don't think that taking all the optional rules in the current set and putting them in other books somehow "fixes" GURPS. The people who have problems with the system will continue to have the exact same problems.

A lot of the arguments about fixing the system that I've seen eventually seem to boil down to people wanting a system that has no required DIY, with an implied or established setting, a short list of pre-made abilities and spells, and a roll-over resolution mechanic... so, basically, D&D.

Quote from: Imperator;467665What I don't get is how you calculate the chances of an impalinghit. I  mean, in standard CoC you 1/5 of your 5 skill of getting a special  success or a impalement.

I think you guys are nuts applying Roll Over Is Better to BRP - I wouldn't particularly want to be doing double-digit addition continually for a ton of cultists at 3 am while drunk. But YMMV, I guess.

However...note you can also get an equivalent result in an additive system, using 'confirmation rolls', where a specific unmodified natural die roll triggers a reroll against the original skill. In the Impalement example where you're going for 1/5, you'd use a natural roll of 81-100 (one fifth of the die range of 1-100), followed by a reroll against skill, which gives the same chance of success.

i.e. with a 50% skill level: if you roll 81+ on the unmodified dice, you'd reroll the attack [d100+50]. The total odds of the impale being a critical then would be [20% chance of rolling 81+ times 50% skill = 10%] or one-fifth of the chance you normally hit with.

This is how critical hit confirmation rolls work in d20 for instance: if you're using a longsword in 3.5 D&D (19-20 threat range) then one-tenth of your hits against a given AC will be criticals, though this isn't apparent to most people.

For odds as high as one-fifth it would generate a fair bit of extra dice rolling (since you get a reroll 20% of the time you're rolling 1.2 dice per roll on average, of course), but it works OK for odds of one-tenth your skill or so.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;467684For games that use a percentage of your success chance as a critical chance, it's best to use "magic numbers". Magic numbers are special numbers in the ones place on the percentile dice that make something awesome happen if you are already succeeding. The number of magic numbers you have is determined by what the divisor is supposed to be. So if you are doing a WFRP thing where 1/10th of your success rate is your crit chance, then you have one magic number. If you're doing CoC where 2/10ths of your success rate is your crit chance, then you have two magic numbers.

Which magic numbers you choose depend on how the game is supposed to handle rounding. So you might choose 0 as your magic number to round one way, or 9 as your magic number to round the other. If you round off in some funny way, then you might select something in the middle.

So let's consider our 56% skill character. Using a 01-100 percentile dice set-up with roll equal-or-less, that's a 56% chance of success (some formulations of percentile have a 56% skill granting a 55% or 57% chance of success). But we're doing roll-over, which means that you'll succeed on a literal roll of 45-100 on a 01-100 roll (or you could do it on a 44-99 on a 00-99 roll, different formulations of percentile systems do it differently, and it doesn't matter save that you have to be consistent. Use whatever makes sense to you). You could have it round down by picking 0 and 5 as your magic numbers. That way you'd impale on a literal roll of 45, 50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 75, 80, 85, 90, or 95 - precisely 11% of the time. If you decided that you wanted to calculate it differently and round up instead, you could have the magic numbers be 9 and 4 instead, and then you'd impale 12% of the time. And of course, if you decided that the breakpoint between 11% and 12% impale should be 57 or 58%, you can set the magic numbers accordingly to do that for you automagically.

This sort of thing is actually really convenient, because it means you don't ever have to do division at the table, and even if you get a big temporary modifier to your skill you aren't being asked to recalculate impalement chances.

-Frank

Awesome. Now I get it. Many many thanks, Frank, a very interesting idea :)

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;467606I offered some ideas previously in this thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=19860), where Elliot asked what could be done, and we answered, and he said actually he couldn't be bothered doing anything anyway. I hope this will be more productive...

I remember it more as me asking if anyone had tried a particular approach. You offered another approach; fair enough, but it wasn't anywhere along the lines that I was interested in, so it was off-topic. I don't know why you feel a need to put words in my mouth.

Quote from: KrakaJak;467601Again, this is not really true, but how the rules are written, there is no explicit and easy information about high end skills and attributes.

Someone with the Archery skill at 35 has an epic mastery of archery. The benefit of doing so is being able to offset all kinds of penalties, making them able to make impossible shots (let's say a called headshot at extreme range after quick readying the weapon and not aiming). The rules never explicitly explain this. One of the problems with Gurps.

Actually, there are explicit and easy to use information about high end skills. A scale is given in the Skills chapter along with natural language descriptions. There is a sidebar devoted to skill levels above 20.

Quote from: Imperator;467727Awesome. Now I get it. Many many thanks, Frank, a very interesting idea :)

Harnmaster counts any roll ending in a 0 or 5 as a critical. In practice it works very well.

Quote from: estar;467754Harnmaster counts any roll ending in a 0 or 5 as a critical. In practice it works very well.

Has Harnmaster a similar system to MERP/RM? I feel I may be mixing it up with some other ICE game.

Quote from: Imperator;467807Has Harnmaster a similar system to MERP/RM? I feel I may be mixing it up with some other ICE game.

The Hârnmaster system is very similar to RuneQuest/BRP (roll under, skills expressed in %, etc), the main difference is that for damage it uses a chart.

Quote from: Claudius;467822The Hârnmaster system is very similar to RuneQuest/BRP (roll under, skills expressed in %, etc), the main difference is that for damage it uses a chart.

Sure, the damage charts must be the thing :) Thanks, mate.

How do you do damage on a chart?

Quote from: B.T.;467931How do you do damage on a chart?

With a pair of scissors or an exacto knife.


- Ed C.

Quote from: B.T.;467931How do you do damage on a chart?

Like in Dračí Doupě, you have a modified weapon hit bigness and you have a target armoredness or other defendedness value and you compare them on a literal table and that determines how many hit points the target loses.

It's the kind of thing people thought was a really good idea until they came up with actually static hit points and soak rolls.

-Frank

Quote from: Imperator;467807Has Harnmaster a similar system to MERP/RM? I feel I may be mixing it up with some other ICE game.

The combat system doesn't use hit points, and there sub systems (sort of like Traveller) to handle specific aspects of Harn. Some have their own product (Harn Manor).

Quote from: B.T.;467931How do you do damage on a chart?

This is the Harnmaster Combat Card http://www.columbiagames.com/resources/4001/harnmaster-combattables.pdf

Both side choose a maneuver and roll an attack and a defense. You cross index the result and roll impact. You then look at the damage character to see how many injury points are inflicted and what special saving throws are needed (stumble, fumble, amputation, death, etc). Injury points reduce your skill and attributes. This effects subsequent saving throws by making them more likely.  

All the chart lookup sounds a little crazy but unlike Rolemaster, you just need the one card. Everything else is on your character sheet. Combat plays only slightly longer than OD&D/AD&D 1st. Way shorter than a GURPS, Fantasy Hero, or D&D 4e fight.

Plus Columbia Games has the card as a free download so everybody can have one (I have five copies myself).

For a complex combat system that tries to emulate realism Harnmaster is the best out there.

One side effect is that it is highly immersive due to the graphic way injury is described. It not like Rolemaster, but when a player go through combat and hears, minor stab to the upper arm, a serious slash to the thigh, etc, most of them get really into it.

On this site
http://www.warflail.com/harn/index.html

You can download a d20 vs Harn combat comparsion

http://www.warflail.com/downloads/HMCvsD20.zip

And my own account of a Harn session here

http://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2011/06/911-call-from-attic-repost.html

Minor public service announcement - for anyone who happened to get the Pakistan relief package download from DriveThruRPG ages back, that included a copy of the HarnMaster3 core rules. I expect people who liked BRP/RuneQuest would probably enjoy it. Seems to be alot of overlap with GURPS players as well.

As a fan of GURPS, I agree heavily to the thoughts that GURPS should have seperate books broken down by genre as a lead-in (regardless of what is marketable or economically feasible, I would love to see them...much like a GURPS Bestiary, which people have been wanting for years). Thats something primarily for players, and people who don't like the fiddly bits, mind you. If I can't find players, I can't run GURPS games. Considerations have to be made for people who don't like toolkits and just want something 'kewl'.

I would also appreciate it if the basic GURPS books were marketed more as 'a toolkit to buil your own rpg' instead of a game in and of itself. That what it has always been, and is now in 4e more than ever. It would set it apart from things like 4E D&D where the parent company won't even explain how they create the underlying mechanics. I think the reason GURPS appeals to me is BECAUSE it's a toolkit...I like videogames like LittleBigPlanet, where I can spend endless hours just making things. I think GURPS (or Hero) oughta be like that. With more and more control of entertainment being taken out of consumer hands as time goes on, I think there's a niche to be filled for 'do-it-yourself' stuff.

GURPS as it is appeals to GMs and worldbuilders. It does not appeal to very many players (thus the need for genre books or settings). I could walk to any game store in town and start up a Pathfinder game within seconds, but it takes months and begging to get a GURPS game going.

Quote from: estar;467985This is the Harnmaster Combat Card http://www.columbiagames.com/resources/4001/harnmaster-combattables.pdf

This is what it feels like to unearth the mysteries of Cthulhu.

Quote from: Yevla;468009I would also appreciate it if the basic GURPS books were marketed more as 'a toolkit to buil your own rpg' instead of a game in and of itself. That what it has always been, and is now in 4e more than ever.

4e is pretty much a complete package now. I would say the opposite; 3e and before was more of a tooklit, but 4e can literally do it all. Sourcebooks help, though.

QuoteGURPS as it is appeals to GMs and worldbuilders. It does not appeal to very many players (thus the need for genre books or settings).

What do genre books have to do with players? Apart from the templates, which are admittedly handy, but inevitibly incomplete as they represent only an overview of the GENRE, I think the genre books are more clearly aimed at the GM.

Setting books are of course fun for everyone.

Quote from: B.T.;468089This is what it feels like to unearth the mysteries of Cthulhu.

I think it actually would be kind of cool if the system for playing Call of Cthulhu drove the players insane.

It'd really help with immersion.

For the record, we tried Frank's idea at our yesterday's Delta Green game, and the experience was quite positive. Opposed rolls are just a breeze now, for example. My players were really satisfied, and so was I. So thanks for the idea, Frank.

Hmm...  Changing GURPS so that it works the same as another RPG.  

1) It's no longer GURPS if you do that.

2) GURPS can already play any genre with any characters on any world.

3) What was so terrible with the other RPG you were using that you felt you needed to fix GURPS?

4) There is no 4.

5) There's always that trade-off when publishers re-print RPG core rules with each new character class book released.  SJGames decided not to take that route by printing a core rulebook once (spit into two books so your arm doesn't break off) and then releasing additional skills, spells, advantages, disadvantages, etc, in add-on books that any GURPS player character can use.

The beauty of GURPS is there is no character class and no armor class, etc.  Characters can be and do anything they want to be and do in a GURPS universe (within GM's reason).  GURPS is a simulator.  Ever play Fallout 3?  GURPS is the same thing, only with more details for your character's growth than what Fallout 3 allowed for.

A lot of RPGs restrict what a character can do, learn to do, and attempt to do.  "My character shoots arrows.  Why, he could never do anything relating to magic!"  That's a limit right there.  And it's an artificial limit (carved into stone decades ago) so the DM can pigeon-hole each character into his/her game setting with less management fussing over.  It's like, "Oh, I get to play an elf again, since my last elf died.  So he's got this same default set of standards for his character, and this is all I will ever be or do in this game because I like what the elf can do... blah blah."

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;530911The beauty of GURPS is there is no character class and no armor class, etc.  Characters can be and do anything they want to be and do in a GURPS universe (within GM's reason).  GURPS is a simulator.  Ever play Fallout 3?  GURPS is the same thing, only with more details for your character's growth than what Fallout 3 allowed for.

GURPS 4e problem is one of presentation similar to the other 4e. In GURPS Case there are just too many options in the two Core Rulebooks. Don't get me wrong the core rulebooks are fine in every regard except for recruiting new players and getting them going in a GURPS Campaign.

I suggested several time over on the SJ Games forums that the best move for GURPS is to come out with three powered by GURPS RPGs; Fantasy, Horror, Science Fiction. Each are a single book with everything to needed to play. For example fantasy will have templates, monsters, items, spells, etc.

The books should cover what the leading competitor in that genre cover, for example Fantasy that is D&D. Horror, Call of Cthulu, etc. I am not saying that the powered by GURPS Fantasy RPG works like D&D. Only that it should have GURPS version of fighter, magic-users, +1 swords, crystal balls, bags of holding, orcs, dragons, etc.

The point isn't to compete with the leading competitor of each genre but show how GURPS can be IMPLEMENT to run the kind of game they like. In my experience when most players switch away from say D&D, they are still looking to play D&D but with X added or subtracted.

Back in the day GURPS 2nd Edition was largely oriented to fantasy roleplaying and light enough that the average D&D gamer of the time could see what it could offer. Then it was character customization and more realistic and deadlier combat.

While roleplaying games industry has decline GURPS had a larger relative fall due to the fact that the d20 system solved the issue of character customization for D&D. Then thanks to the d20 fad the base system was expanded to cover a broad range of genres. What GURPS has left is the fact it is a well designed, well researched, well written RPG that a wide range of different genres.

But none of that is going to have any effect is the players are going have wade through the core books to implement GURPS for their campaign. There are plenty of e23 PDF offerings and some print offerings that do a lot of the work but when stacked up against GURPS competitor in a given genre there is no comparison.

SJ Games reply has been that GURPS competes in the generic RPG space. Even there it not doing well. Sure Hero System is in trouble these days but the games that GURPS contend with are the d20 system and the family of FUDGE/FATE games along with Savage Worlds. And GURPS hasn't done well against them again because of the lack of a decent gateway book.

I like the GURPS system just fine. As long as Munchkin remains the big favorite over at SJ games, I wouldn't hold out much hope for very much GURPS support.

Quote from: estar;530968...the best move for GURPS is to come out with three powered by GURPS RPGs; Fantasy, Horror, Science Fiction. Each are a single book with everything to needed to play. For example fantasy will have templates, monsters, items, spells, etc.

Amen.

......nice Necro happening here....

So what some of you are REALLY saying is that actually kind of like GURPS 4/e - you just wanted it marketed or packaged differently.

Sounds  like you want SJG to imitate PINNACLE's marketing approach with SAVAGE WORLDS. You like the mini 'genre-books' - you just wish it was with GURPS 4/e instead.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;531025Sounds  like you want SJG to imitate PINNACLE's marketing approach with SAVAGE WORLDS. You like the mini 'genre-books' - you just wish it was with GURPS 4/e instead.

Pretty much except the rest of the line and the core rulebook should remain as is. If I was doing this project, each genre line would have the core book, two or three adventures written so that gamers of the leading competitor find them easy to use. Then stop there. After they are complete just continue as they have been.

At this point they have a lot of work done for certain lines. For example Dungeon Fantasy, Monster Hunter, etc. A genre book could be created by combining some of the releases into a coherent whole.

Note that in additional to Pinnacle, there is Chaosium and what it does with Basic Roleplaying. They tend to customize the base system a lot for the individual game.

Quote from: estar;530968GURPS 4e problem is one of presentation similar to the other 4e. In GURPS Case there are just too many options in the two Core Rulebooks. Don't get me wrong the core rulebooks are fine in every regard except for recruiting new players and getting them going in a GURPS Campaign.

In the book, it tells both first-time GMs and players to not get bogged down in all the skills and traits they have listed.  Otherwise, a game will never get started if players can't decided which to choose for their character.  A good GM will flat out say what the limits are so players can join in quickly.

Quote from: estar;530968I suggested several time over on the SJ Games forums that the best move for GURPS is to come out with three powered by GURPS RPGs; Fantasy, Horror, Science Fiction. Each are a single book with everything to needed to play. For example fantasy will have templates, monsters, items, spells, etc.

Then you run into GURPS rules that are shaved specifically for each genre.  And players need to buy all three books to have the complete rules.  Well heck, in the old days players would be buying GURPS books anyways like SPACE, FANTASY, HORROR.  But the core would be in one book instead of spread out in three.  SJGames is mostly Munchkins card games and PDFs now in this economy.  Fantasy Flight Games has the budget to make prettier books for its DH, BC, RT, OW RPGs (each with its version of core rules).  I guess all this would depend on wether a company is in the business of book selling or game selling.  WotC is in the book selling business for sure.

Quote from: estar;530968The books should cover what the leading competitor in that genre cover, for example Fantasy that is D&D. Horror, Call of Cthulu, etc. I am not saying that the powered by GURPS Fantasy RPG works like D&D. Only that it should have GURPS version of fighter, magic-users, +1 swords, crystal balls, bags of holding, orcs, dragons, etc.

People would not buy any "D&D powered by GURPS" books when there are "Official D&D" books to buy.  Plus, SJGames would have to buy licensing if their books at too similar to D&D characters.

Quote from: estar;530968The point isn't to compete with the leading competitor of each genre but show how GURPS can be IMPLEMENT to run the kind of game they like. In my experience when most players switch away from say D&D, they are still looking to play D&D but with X added or subtracted.

I'm not sure why people would move away from D&D if they still only want to play the D&D theme? It's a d20 system with class controls on characters.  They'll look at a simulator like GURPS and scratch their heads, not knowing what the restrictions are in the game.  They'll be looking for the one exact character that has that one skill they can level up to.  But GURPS doesn't work that way.  And there's no awesome d20 die for them to hold.

Quote from: estar;530968Back in the day GURPS 2nd Edition was largely oriented to fantasy roleplaying and light enough that the average D&D gamer of the time could see what it could offer. Then it was character customization and more realistic and deadlier combat.

Yes.  And D&D was still more popular than GURPS.  Always has been.  Always will be.  D&D is more popular than all other RPGs combined because the publishers always got their books out first (with amazing color artwork in each one).  It took years for other RPG companies to release a campaign book for their less popular systems (and they were not in color, and their art was only so so).  Fantasy Flight Games RPGs do so well because of their color artwork filled books.  The Harn System is probably one of the most realistic medieval RPGs.  But hardly anyone knows about it because a new hardcover book didn't come out for the system every month.

Quote from: estar;530968While roleplaying games industry has decline GURPS had a larger relative fall due to the fact that the d20 system solved the issue of character customization for D&D. Then thanks to the d20 fad the base system was expanded to cover a broad range of genres. What GURPS has left is the fact it is a well designed, well researched, well written RPG that a wide range of different genres.

I can see problems with GURPS as far as a GM not being able to create a world of his or her own that is as expansive as D&D's to play in.  It is too much work for one person.  D&D makes it easy for a DM to not have to create anything for a game.  So a hell of a lot more D&D games get played.

Quote from: estar;530968But none of that is going to have any effect is the players are going have wade through the core books to implement GURPS for their campaign. There are plenty of e23 PDF offerings and some print offerings that do a lot of the work but when stacked up against GURPS competitor in a given genre there is no comparison.

Fewer GURPS games being run for sure.  But the game experience is higher quality.  I still look around to see what new RPGs have been released.  I'll look through them (last night I looked through Stars Without Number).  I'll look at BR and BRP and Qin.  I do have all the Mongoose Traveller books, but they're used only for source ideas in GURPS.  I would not run a Traveller game using the 2d6 Traveller rules (even if they are updated from the 1979 rules).  I would use GURPS 4e.

By the way, I had Man to Man, GURPS 2nd and 3rd and 3rd Revised.  Didn't much care for them.  I putted around with it and with other RPG systems.  None of them had that magic that I was looking for though.  But I was patient and waited for GURPS's strength and health and fatigue and hit points to work right.  And GURPS 4e delivered.  GURPS stands out now from all the other generic RPGs.  It doesn't bother me if there is no "D&D" setting for GURPS, because I can make a D&D world of my own if I bothered to, or create any fantasy setting that has no player restrictions.

Quote from: estar;530968SJ Games reply has been that GURPS competes in the generic RPG space. Even there it not doing well. Sure Hero System is in trouble these days but the games that GURPS contend with are the d20 system and the family of FUDGE/FATE games along with Savage Worlds. And GURPS hasn't done well against them again because of the lack of a decent gateway book.

All RPGs are hurting now compared to the 1980 - 1995 years.  And all generic RPGs are hurting even more.  PDP-11's brought RPGing to the coffee table (computer programmers had to use pencil and paper when at home) and Windows 95 took coffee table RPGs away (RPGing is all done automatically on the cyperspace of the interweb now).  When I saw Wizardry and Ultima being played on the Apple ][+ in 1981, I thought this cannot be good for my Traveller playing (which was already falling behind new RPGs that were coming out).  I didn't like how players were using crumby computer graphics instead of their minds to see their adventures with.  I admit, there was a time when I looked at a pencil and a die at a table and thought how ancient.  But I snapped out of it and never fell for the Neverquest and WOW pay-as-you-play addiction scene.

If SJGame would stop with the stuffed Cthulhu toys and the Munchkins and produced only GURPS books (in hardcover with color artwork), of course GURPS would be king of the generic RPGs.  But Steve Jackson has convinced himself that no one cares about RPGing anymore just because he doesn't do it anymore.  So he doesn't have the staff to produce and print new books.  His money is going into reprinting Munchkins cards.  It cost less to do.  Meanwhile, Warhammer 40K is filling the shelves were GURPS products used to be.  I'll never understand the fascination with that game.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;531003I like the GURPS system just fine. As long as Munchkin remains the big favorite over at SJ games, I wouldn't hold out much hope for very much GURPS support.

I've never played Munchkins.  Never will.  There's no replay value after you've read all the jokes on the cards.  "Honey?  We need $25 to buy more Munchkins cards to make this game fun again."

Quote from: estar;531033At this point they have a lot of work done for certain lines. For example Dungeon Fantasy, Monster Hunter, etc. A genre book could be created by combining some of the releases into a coherent whole.

If SJGames put all their Dungeon Fantasy PDFs into one printed book I'd buy it with PayPal now.  I have just the first 4 volumes in print.  The rest are PDF only, so I don't have them.  I rarely buy PDFs.  I'm a book person.

The same goes for GURPS Spaceships.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531081I've never played Munchkins.  Never will.  There's no replay value after you've read all the jokes on the cards.  "Honey?  We need $25 to buy more Munchkins cards to make this game fun again."

Then you've never hit the bigger problem: there's little play value the first time. Munchkin is a nasty, poorly-designed, barely-playtested game, that a certain segment of gamers fucking love to buy for some insane reason that I will never understand. If a Munchkin game doesn't end in a fight or at least one of the players storming off in a huff, it hasn't ended yet.

I mean, props to Steve Jackson (US) for keeping his company going so long, but fuck Munchkin.

Petrol and a lighter.

Quote from: One Horse Town;531109Petrol and a lighter.

Buuuuuurn!

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531079If SJGame would stop with the stuffed Cthulhu toys and the Munchkins and produced only GURPS books (in hardcover with color artwork), of course GURPS would be king of the generic RPGs.

And then they could watch in glee as their business dried up and they had to close up shop.  Hooray!

Quote from: misterguignol;531112And then they could watch in glee as their business dried up and they had to close up shop.  Hooray!

Yeah, let's face it, GURPS is a legacy product. Munchkin's where the whores go.

Quote from: Rincewind1;531113Yeah, let's face it, GURPS is a legacy product. Munchkin's where the whores go.

Pretty sad that a joke card game relegated GURPS to that status though.

Quote from: Ladybird;531107I mean, props to Steve Jackson (US) for keeping his company going so long, but fuck Munchkin.

I just wish Steve Jackson put more money into his products.  He aways bids low.  Car Wars was a fun game in 1982.  It still is to some extent.  But the paper maps and the paper units you had to cut out.  The same for Ogre and G.E.V.  More paper gameboards.  Fantasy Flight Games puts out a game like Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition with amazing production quality.  Steve Jackson doesn't even try, unless it's a game that he wants to play himself and not care what his customers think about his cheapness.

Quote from: misterguignol;531112And then they could watch in glee as their business dried up and they had to close up shop.  Hooray!

We don't know that for certain.  But chances are SJGames would have to sell GURPS to another publisher if they failed at advertising the game.  Lots of RPGs have been owned by several publishers over their years.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531124We don't know that for certain.  But chances are SJGames would have to sell GURPS to another publisher if they failed at advertising the game.  Lots of RPGs have been owned by several publishers over their years.

Don't let your love of the game blind you to the fact that it doesn't sell well enough to sustain SJG's business.  They don't focus on Munchkin because they're short-sighted; they focus on Munchkin because they have the numbers in front of them.

I have to wonder if GURPS' numbers would be so bad if they hadn't murdered it.

It needed a refresh, not a mercy killing in the name of pleasing solely their hardcore fans.  

Time was there wasn't an FLGS around that didn't have a few GURPS sourcebooks on the shelf.  Now you're lucky to even see corebooks.

Quote from: misterguignol;531127Don't let your love of the game blind you to the fact that it doesn't sell well enough to sustain SJG's business.  They don't focus on Munchkin because they're short-sighted; they focus on Munchkin because they have the numbers in front of them.

Correct.  Card games sell and are cheaper to produce.  Table RPGs on the whole have been on life-support since multiplayer online games.  Table RPGs may never come back in full force like they once were.  At least SJGames still sells their core rules in color with hardcover.  The art could have been better though.  Qin has fabulous artwork.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;467542The fact that BRP continues to use "roll under skill" instead of "add skill to roll, your TN is always 100" shows a simple lack of vision and a grognardian refusal to adapt to the modern era.

Yes, it's mathematically identical. But in the latter version, your degree of success is simply the end result. There's no end stage math. Even more important, if you forgot a modifier and have to add it in after the fact, you only have to remember the reported total, rather than having to remember the original die roll and the modified roll-under target number separately.

Percentile roll-under is intuitive to design. But so was THAC0, and for the same reason. It made "sense" that 1st Class Armor was the best and 3rd Class Armor was worse than that, just like it makes "sense" that if you have to roll under your skill of 30 that you have a 30% chance of success. But let's be real here: d20's handling of AC is superior. Similarly, if you have to beat 100 and you add that 30 to your roll, you still have that same 30% chance of success. It's just that you can then report all relevant information to the GM with a single number so that when he says "Oh, did you count the curse from the spider mummies?" and you admit that you did not, you can still glean everything you need from the number you reported to the table. It's just better. In the same way and for the same reason that getting rid of THAC0 is better than leaving it in.

I understand the nostalgia factor and how it was "good enough" for us when we were playing it in 1984, but for fuck's sake. It's 2011, and if you're still on the roll-under wagon that is fucking pathetic.

-Frank

I understand what you're saying, but in regard to BRP I just haven't seen it in actual play. I personally have zero trouble with roll under.. in fact my other fav game used roll under in it's previous incarnation and it was also no problem at all in actual play. I haven't even personally seen anyone have any kind of trouble with roll under, although I have heard the complaint before second hand and online, like in this thread. I suppose if that makes me a pathetic,  nostalgic grognard I'll just have to find a way to be ok with that. I don't anticipate any difficulty there either.

On a side note, I originally misspelled "grognard" as "gragbard", which I think I will make the name of my next half-orc character :D

Quote from: J Arcane;531128Time was there wasn't an FLGS around that didn't have a few GURPS sourcebooks on the shelf.  Now you're lucky to even see corebooks.

The stores I've been to still have 2nd and 3rd GURPS core and some sourcebooks in their game room areas along with old Heroes (Champions) and old Chaosium and AD&D 2.0 books (no one will buy old editions of anything).  But no GURPS 4th edition anywhere in the store.  High school kids walking in the stores have never heard of the game unless their dad has a GURPS library at home.  Most stores cater to Warhammer anyway.  Before that, it was magic cards.  Oh my god, 1993 (was it?) to frickin' 2006 or so, every table in the stores had some magic card game going on.  Maybe two tables had an RPG being run.  I'd come in to get my GURPS books (mostly the Traveller modules for the game that were still being made by SJGames).  The rest of the area was LAN computers with some multiplayer games.  The computers are long gone now to make from for painting areas.  Lots of painting going on now in these stores.  Of course, there are still the Euro boardgames to be found in stores.  So that is kind of cool to see people coming in to buy.

Quote from: Sigmund;531137I understand what you're saying, but in regard to BRP I just haven't seen it in actual play. I personally have zero trouble with roll under.. in fact my other fav game used roll under in it's previous incarnation and it was also no problem at all in actual play. I haven't even personally seen anyone have any kind of trouble with roll under, although I have heard the complaint before second hand and online, like in this thread. I suppose if that makes me a pathetic,  nostalgic grognard I'll just have to find a way to be ok with that. I don't anticipate any difficulty there either.

This is the first complaint I've heard about rolling under.  I personally like to roll within my skill range when I play an RPG.  As my skill increases, the range for my success roll increases.  If I succeed, then I can worry about whether it accomplished anything or not against an NPC.  Just like in Fallout 3.

SJG could make the game easier to understand if they wished.

For example: Someone could take the rules and write up a battle online. They could start with the simple concepts and then work their way into more complexity. They could also use programing to embed, so you could get extra info by rolling over the area or clicking into it (I'm not a programer. But I have seen this done on other websites.)

A few good examples and it would go a long way to helping more people understand the game.

Likely there are other things that could be done too. SJG has a Character Generator for GURPs, why not a spell generator, encounter generator, etc.

In one of the examples noted the power source for Magic Missile as Cosmic? Why in the world would it be Cosmic, which costs way more than say Magic?  

It appears to me that GURPs only wants a niche market of people that are already playing other games.


And to fix GURPs... not possible because they don't want to be fixed. It may just take someone in one of the new companies to come up with a hybrid game that mixes the best of pen an paper with the ease of using a computer generated stuff. A game where we can still sit down with our friends and roll dice, but the prep, characters and background can be done on tablet computers, phones or whatever. Where DMs can add/write the flavor and have computers do the crunching for us.

SJ isn't doing much with Gurps anymore, because Munchkin is killing it in sales. Unless Munchkin sales start to drop, I expect Gurps to continue as a wandering zombie that gets one or two fresh infusions of blood per year.

Quote from: Amberfriend;531143SJG could make the game easier to understand if they wished.

For example: Someone could take the rules and write up a battle online. They could start with the simple concepts and then work their way into more complexity. They could also use programing to embed, so you could get extra info by rolling over the area or clicking into it (I'm not a programer. But I have seen this done on other websites.)

Don't get me started on their site.  I got banned for mentioning how Netscape 2.0 their site is.  They won't spend money on anything but the bare minimum.
 

Quote from: Amberfriend;531143A few good examples and it would go a long way to helping more people understand the game.

Likely there are other things that could be done too. SJG has a Character Generator for GURPs, why not a spell generator, encounter generator, etc.

Agreed.

Quote from: Amberfriend;531143It appears to me that GURPs only wants a niche market of people that are already playing other games.

GURPS has had a chronic low-grade fever since 2005.  New customers are just a trickle.  Old customers tend to scare off new ones.  But that is how any RPG is as far as I can tell.

Very few people look for a better RPG than what they learned on in school.  Most players stick to whatever RPG system they started with.  And they'll complain about new editions.  SJGames lost a lot of players when they switched from 3rd to 4th Edition GURPS.  I was thrilled with the change once I played it the first time.  I had been looking for a replacement RPG for GURPS 3rd Edition for quite some time.  I was thinking of going to Heroes 5th Edition or Shadowrun.

Quote from: Amberfriend;531143And to fix GURPs... not possible because they don't want to be fixed. It may just take someone in one of the new companies to come up with a hybrid game that mixes the best of pen an paper with the ease of using a computer generated stuff. A game where we can still sit down with our friends and roll dice, but the prep, characters and background can be done on tablet computers, phones or whatever. Where DMs can add/write the flavor and have computers do the crunching for us.

I try to get players to use the Internet more so they can download PDFs of maps and character sheets and other info that I upload for them.  I'll do CG modeling for all kinds of settings.  And get a Skype session going for someone not in town who wants to join in.  I don't allow phones at a gaming session though.  I know some gamers that use their TV for the map and to show players what the scene looks like and what the NPCs look like.  That's kind of interesting.

Quote from: danbuter;531146I expect Gurps to continue as a wandering zombie that gets one or two fresh infusions of blood per year.

Ha!  Exactly.

Quote from: danbuter;531146SJ isn't doing much with Gurps anymore, because Munchkin is killing it in sales. Unless Munchkin sales start to drop, I expect Gurps to continue as a wandering zombie that gets one or two fresh infusions of blood per year.

tl;dr - we fix GURPS by making capitalism work differently than it does.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;531211we fix GURPS by making capitalism work differently than it does.

Explain.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531213Explain.

The feedback I'm getting so far is that SJG has its priorities skewed by not redesigning GURPS or remarketing it as a top priority, because their top priority is Munchkin- which of course it should be, because it makes the most profit, and they're a for-profit business.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;531218The feedback I'm getting so far is that SJG has its priorities skewed by not redesigning GURPS or remarketing it as a top priority, because their top priority is Munchkin- which of course it should be, because it makes the most profit, and they're a for-profit business.

That's what I thought you meant.  Selling more copies of GURPS (by putting a gun to someone's head or not) will not fix GURPS.  The RPG doesn't need fixing.

On my facebook page, SJG is going on about the new edition of Ogre.

Ogre.


I have never heard a single person even discuss Ogre, let alone play it.


Meanwhile, still no GURPS Fantasy Bestiary.

I asked Kromm about a bestiary on his LJ maybe a year ago, and he said it's not going to happen. That's when I sold all of my Gurps 4e books. I've given up on them.

Quote from: danbuter;531257I asked Kromm about a bestiary on his LJ maybe a year ago, and he said it's not going to happen.

Seriously?  Yikes. :(

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531079In the book, it tells both first-time GMs and players to not get bogged down in all the skills and traits they have listed.  Otherwise, a game will never get started if players can't decided which to choose for their character.  A good GM will flat out say what the limits are so players can join in quickly.

And the referee determines those limits from the core book, how? And how much is the average referee willing to spend doing this compared to say Savage Worlds or one of the Basic Roleplaying variants for his chosen genre.

In my experience not many. I know this because since early 90s I been involved the western PA gaming community and had dealing with a good number of gamers in the area (probably around 200 or so by this point). Now I haven't talked about GURPS with everyone, but it has come up more than a few times. And I have run demos and some campaigns with them.

Their reply comes mostly down to this.

"This is a great game, Rob. But I wouldn't be playing it if it wasn't for you. I just don't want to wade through all the books or even GURPS Lite just to run my dungeon/starship/superhero/horror adventure."

This has come up so often that I believe it is a major issue for GURPS and a major cause in why it declined faster in sales than it's competitors.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531079Then you run into GURPS rules that are shaved specifically for each genre.  
And players need to buy all three books to have the complete rules.  

No my proposal are for complete RPGs with no other rule book. That why I specifically said "Powered by GURPS." See Prime Directive by Armadillo Design for an example of what a powered by GURPS RPG looks like.

Another example is Chaosium Call of Cthulu versus Runequest versus Stormbringer. All three use Basic Roleplaying but all three are standalone RPGs.

Also I am not advocating a overhaul of the GURPS line. Only that a handful of complete "Powered by GURPS" RPGs be created as a introduction to the rest of the line. These would greatly lower the barrier to get started with GURPS and put the purchasers to the core books and the rest of the line in their desire to expand what they can do with GURPS.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531079People would not buy any "D&D powered by GURPS" books when there are "Official D&D" books to buy.  Plus, SJGames would have to buy licensing if their books at too similar to D&D characters.

1) GURPS already has D&D powered by GURPS. It called the Dungeon Fantasy line. The first three books occupy three of the top ten selling GURPS PDFs.

2) A powered by GURPS Fantasy RPGS doesn't need to be GURPS D&D. Instead is should focus on 150 pt fantasy character and provide a selection of monsters, items, spells with roughly the same coverage as D&D, Runequest and the other major fantasy RPGs.

My group recruited many gamers in NW Pa since the late 80s to the GURPS. They wanted to do roughly the same things as they did in AD&D, dungeons and treasure findin but they wanted to do it GURPS style. Not have GURPS emulate AD&D. Understand the difference?

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531079I'm not sure why people would move away from D&D if they still only want to play the D&D theme?

Back in the day it was the Bell Curve of 3D6, Character Customization, and the detailed combat. Of these Character Customization was the single greatest reason propelling players that switched to other fantasy RPGs. GURPS also appealed because it made sense and it was easy to real world concepts to what you were trying to do in GURPS. GURPS was and remains a great design for RPGs.

Today the d20 system eviscerated GURPS advantage in customization. And without a intro product this hurt GURPS badly with gamers look for an alternative to D&D for fantasy RPGs.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531079I can see problems with GURPS as far as a GM not being able to create a world of his or her own that is as expansive as D&D's to play in.  It is too much work for one person.  D&D makes it easy for a DM to not have to create anything for a game.  So a hell of a lot more D&D games get played.

D&D works in this regard because they provide lists of items, monsters and other stuff. So do other Fantasy RPGs. But GURPS has always being notorious for having piss poor monster support in the core rules. In 3rd and 4th edition there been some excellent monster books printed but you really have to like GURPS to get to the point where you are willing to buy them.

I will have the say that Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 1 is really good for D&D style fantasy in GURPS. It much better than then any of their past 3rd or 4th edition books in that regard.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531079GURPS stands out now from all the other generic RPGs.  It doesn't bother me if there is no "D&D" setting for GURPS, because I can make a D&D world of my own if I bothered to, or create any fantasy setting that has no player restrictions.

Try to get a bunch of other gamers to play or referee GURPS and let me know how it goes. I am not argue GURPS isn't a outstanding game. I am arguing that it the way is presented discourages players from taking up the game.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531079All RPGs are hurting now compared to the 1980 - 1995 years.  And all generic RPGs are hurting even more.

Yes ALL RPGs are down, but GURPS didn't have to fall faster relative to other RPGs. We have counter example in the generic markets. Savage World, and the BRP related games.  How are they doing now? Have they fell faster than their competitors. How Hero System doing? My view is that the GURPS/Hero System approach is not going to fly and that it was a fluke that it worked when it did. The better approach is a hybrid of what Chaosium does and what SJ Games does. Have a complete RPGs written to the standards of the major competitors of a genre to showcase your system and then have the generic core rulebook and supplements behind it.

Quote from: Amberfriend;531143SJG could make the game easier to understand if they wished.

GURPS Lite does a good job of this. I hand out copies when I start up a new group and it works just fine.

I wish Gurps had gone OGL. Then we'd probably have a real fantasy and scifi game made from those rules (with setting embedded).

Quote from: James Gillen;531218The feedback I'm getting so far is that SJG has its priorities skewed by not redesigning GURPS or remarketing it as a top priority, because their top priority is Munchkin- which of course it should be, because it makes the most profit, and they're a for-profit business.

For me, it fine that Munchkin is by far their #1 priority. They have to go with what the number tell them and Munchkin is where it at.

What blows my mind, is what they do when they work on GURPS. For example right now there are preparing a GURPS 4e Discworld book. Probably will be the next hardcover release. I question whether that project will be the best value for the time spent on GURPS. I think they will generate far more sales by putting that effort into doing a "Powered by GURPS" Fantasy RPG.

Or at the least consolidating and editing all the Dungeon Fantasy books into a single "powered by GURPS" fantasy RPG. I prefer 150 pt GURPS fantasy to the 250 pt Dungeon Fantasy version.

Now a lot of the dynamics revolve around what the freelancers are want to so that has to be factored in.

WHAT I WOULD DO:

package up GURPS Lite as "The Nostalgia Trip". Have Kovalic do the cover, a homage to the old Purple'y/blue TFT cover. (and i only say Kovalic because apparently they only sell products with cartoons on them now...)

streamline the rules EVEN MORE, and OGL it.  Then, since the only other thing they can apparently do is sell cards, package up "Bestiary" decks, Equipment/Skill decks, etc.

New gamers would think it's a new game, and the OSR crowd would fondly remember their Melee/Wizard/TFT days, and buy-in based on that.

SOLVED.

Quote from: danbuter;531264I wish Gurps had gone OGL. Then we'd probably have a real fantasy and scifi game made from those rules (with setting embedded).

I very much agree with this. Put the risk on the poor sap who willing to put in his own time and money.  I would happily write for a OGL/CC version of GURPS even with the smaller market.

It isn't about how SJ Game treats freelancers. From what I know the freelancers receive excellent treatment and SJ Games is generous in their rates. Their document templates are complicated but that is only headache of writing for SJ Games that I know.

The appeal of a OGL/CC version of GURPS is creative control over what you create. No matter how good SJ Games treats their freelancer at the end of the day the stuff you write becomes theirs. And if I am going to put all this time in I rather have it remain mine.

So hence the major reason I write for older edition D&D than GURPS. It no secret that 75% of the material in Majestic Wilderlands was developed in my GURPS Campaign. The classes are adaptations of the templates I created. For those with Majestic Wilderlands you can see the GURPS version of the Myrmidon here. (http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Gods%20-%20Set,%20Myrmidon%20Template.pdf)

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531140This is the first complaint I've heard about rolling under.  I personally like to roll within my skill range when I play an RPG.  As my skill increases, the range for my success roll increases.  If I succeed, then I can worry about whether it accomplished anything or not against an NPC.  Just like in Fallout 3.

Same here, although to be fair Frank's conversion idea to make the percentile roll-over is simple and elegant as well. I'd be perfectly happy using that too.

Quote from: Yevla;531252On my facebook page, SJG is going on about the new edition of Ogre.

Ogre.


I have never heard a single person even discuss Ogre, let alone play it.


Meanwhile, still no GURPS Fantasy Bestiary.

Ogre is a kick-ass game for it's day. I actually look forward to seeing what they do with it.

Quote from: Sigmund;531277Ogre is a kick-ass game for it's day. I actually look forward to seeing what they do with it.

Although I'm sure its a fine game in it's own right, I am merely pointing out the hypocrisy of others claiming that SJG doesn't make any new GURPS material (when I've seen plenty of folks clamoring for new GURPS material) because Munchkin is the money-maker (which it is, of course), while the company is working on/releasing a new edition of Ogre (when I really don't see anyone clamoring for new Ogre releases).

In a similar vein, friends and I have often wondered why Steve Jackson has such an obsession with obscure 70s sci-fi GURPs suppliments when most of the folks I've met use GURPS to run homebrewed fantasy worlds. No one buys these things. As horribly misguided as WotC's marketing department is, at least they're trying.

Really superficially: change the name. On a shelf with other RPGs with cool, flashy, or exciting names, 'GURPS' is kinda sad for 2012.

A new player-to-be walks into the store... 'Do I want "Marvel Super Heroes", "Mutants and Masterminds", or "GURPS Supers"? What the hell is a GURP anyway?'

If it were more of a 'SOMETHING EXCITING powered by GURPS' that would be more attractive. Keep the Generic Universal Core Book available with all of its modular rules for those wishing to create their own worlds, but also sell a game someone can run now without too much construction.

Quote from: languagegeek;531313Really superficially: change the name. On a shelf with other RPGs with cool, flashy, or exciting names, 'GURPS' is kinda sad for 2012.

A new player-to-be walks into the store... 'Do I want "Marvel Super Heroes", "Mutants and Masterminds", or "GURPS Supers"? What the hell is a GURP anyway?'

If it were more of a 'SOMETHING EXCITING powered by GURPS' that would be more attractive. Keep the Generic Universal Core Book available with all of its modular rules for those wishing to create their own worlds, but also sell a game someone can run now without too much construction.

I liked the way the front pages of the 'Powered by GURPS' books looked. The Hellboy one was a great example of how to add some spark to the game system.

Quote from: estar;531268For me, it fine that Munchkin is by far their #1 priority. They have to go with what the number tell them and Munchkin is where it at.

What blows my mind, is what they do when they work on GURPS. For example right now there are preparing a GURPS 4e Discworld book. Probably will be the next hardcover release. I question whether that project will be the best value for the time spent on GURPS. I think they will generate far more sales by putting that effort into doing a "Powered by GURPS" Fantasy RPG.

Or at the least consolidating and editing all the Dungeon Fantasy books into a single "powered by GURPS" fantasy RPG. I prefer 150 pt GURPS fantasy to the 250 pt Dungeon Fantasy version.

Now a lot of the dynamics revolve around what the freelancers are want to so that has to be factored in.

Fair enough.  Of course one of the things I think makes GURPS what it is is that the freelancers and staff are a lot more "literary" minded and will make sourcebooks from Pratchett, GRR Martin and the like.

jg

Quote from: Koltar;467618Fuck 'magic missile'.

 GURPS 4/e doesn't need 'fixing'.

There is nothing wrong with rolling 'under' the target number.

If you got a problem with that - its because you're to some other for years making you think the higher the number is the better so often that its like comparing the size of your manhood.

 Damn! No wonder I see more womenb trying and playing GUREPS thjan other game systems!

It just hit me that D&D and other similiar games are nothing but macho wankfest games more than half the time for stats-happy obsessed people.

GURPS is about the, not how 'hih' you roll or who has the biggest 'sword' in play.


- Ed C.

 Damn dude, your butchery of our language is something horrific.

Quote from: shalvayez;531426Damn dude, your butchery of our language is something horrific.

What are you talking about?  I like to roll hih when I play GUREPS!

Quote from: misterguignol;531437What are you talking about?  I like to roll hih when I play GUREPS!

Hee Hee, GUREPS.:)

I'm not sure but I think Koltar was saying that women like GURPS because it's rules lite?  I don't think GURPS is a bad game but rules lite it isn't.

Quote from: Marleycat;531442Hee Hee, GUREPS.:)

I'm not sure but I think Koltar was saying that women like GURPS because it's rules lite?  I don't think GURPS is a bad game but rules lite it isn't.

It can be.  Or at least, it was in 3e, and I actually did know a number of female GURPS fans in those days.

These days however, the game, and it's fanbase, are dominated by the kinds of anti-social (and almost entirely male last I was there) gearheads that inhabit the SJGames forums.

What 4e is like has a lot to do with that.  For fuck's sake, they hired one of the forum regulars to write the damned thing.

Quote from: Marleycat;531442Hee Hee, GUREPS.:)

I'm not sure but I think Koltar was saying that women like GURPS because it's rules lite?  I don't think GURPS is a bad game but rules lite it isn't.

Maybe he meant GURPS Lite, which is a thing that exists.  I haven't ever looked at it because GURPS isn't my kind of game at all.

Quote from: languagegeek;531313Really superficially: change the name. On a shelf with other RPGs with cool, flashy, or exciting names, ‘GURPS’ is kinda sad for 2012.

I dunno... this just sounds like game-insecurity to me... 'How do I make this game appeal to the cool kidz? How do I get them to not think I'm a dork?'
Saying 'deeandee' always sounded dumb to my ears as well.

Speaking of superficial, I always thought that one thing holding GURPS back was that, past the cover image, the books were just fucking dull to look at... which shouldn't matter but does anyway. The art in them, all by the same hack, was shit for years. The illustrations got, kinda, better towards the end of 3rd though.
If some kid will take the time to learn Pathfinder or 4e then he oughtta be willing to take the time to learn GURPS... IF it had half the visual appeal... and the name-recognition of course.

Quote from: misterguignol;531446Maybe he meant GURPS Lite, which is a thing that exists.  I haven't ever looked at it because GURPS isn't my kind of game at all.

Must have.  When I played it (3e) there were a good number of female players though, not including myself of course.  Couldn't tell you about 4e never tried it.

Quote from: Marleycat;531454Must have.  When I played it (3e) there were a good number of female players though, not including myself of course.  Couldn't tell you about 4e never tried it.

The only female GM I've played under was running GURPS... two different campaigns over several years. Great stuff too.

Quote from: Simlasa;531456The only female GM I've played under was running GURPS... two different campaigns over several years. Great stuff too.

It's a simple game to run as long as you use just the basics.  It's the original modular game, too bad it's treated so badly by SJGames.

Were there any differences you noticed? Just curious because I don't think I run any game different from a man.

Quote from: Marleycat;531459Were there any differences you noticed? Just curious because I don't think I run any game different from a man.

No differences I'd assign to her gender. There was plenty of combat/conflict (her sister was quite bloodthirsty) and lots of smart/creative setups. I think we were playing in Yrth for most of it.

Quote from: Simlasa;531465No differences I'd assign to her gender. There was plenty of combat/conflict (her sister was quite bloodthirsty) and lots of smart/creative setups. I think we were playing in Yrth for most of it.

Cool, to be honest females can be even more bloodthirsty than males.  Most don't know or care about the classic gamer way of doing things. They want results and a fun experience so they tend to forget or are oblivious to the etiquette of gamer culture in unexpected ways.

Quote from: Yevla;531252On my facebook page, SJG is going on about the new edition of Ogre.

Ogre.


I have never heard a single person even discuss Ogre, let alone play it.


Meanwhile, still no GURPS Fantasy Bestiary.

Ogre is a play-a-few-times-and-forget-about-it game from the '70s.  I very war-lite boardgame.  I have 3 editions of it ($2.50 - $9 each).  But the $100 6th edition is just a one-off that doesn't add anything new to the game rules.  It's only a collecter's game for selling on eBay.

You mentioned GURPS Fantasy Bestiary.  For GURPS 4e, right?  I'm looking through my books now.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531473Ogre is a play-a-few-times-and-forget-about-it game from the '70s.

You might get a different opinion over on a wargaming site like The Miniatures Page.
OGRE was the starting game for a LOT of folks. The Space Gamer had good articles about it, optional units, game scenarios.
My friends and I played it (and it's GEV expansion) all through High School and even built up a force of miniatures for it.
We still get it on the table once in a while.

Quote from: Marleycat;531454Must have.  When I played it (3e) there were a good number of female players though, not including myself of course.  Couldn't tell you about 4e never tried it.

If you want to try 4th edition GURPS - stop by Cincinnati and I'll let you know when I'm running my next game session.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;531489If you want to try 4th edition GURPS - stop by Cinciunnati and I'll let you know when I'm running my next game session.

- Ed C.

Little bit hard for a person that doesn't drive and lives in Kansas City.:)

Thanks for the offer though, seriously.

Quote from: estar;531262And the referee determines those limits from the core book, how?

According to the campaign being run and the NPCs in it.  Maybe you didn't understand my meaning by limit?

Quote from: estar;531262And how much is the average referee willing to spend doing this compared to say Savage Worlds or one of the Basic Roleplaying variants for his chosen genre.

Doing what?  Creating a setting and NPCs for it?
 

Quote from: estar;531262In my experience not many. I know this because since early 90s I been involved the western PA gaming community and had dealing with a good number of gamers in the area (probably around 200 or so by this point). Now I haven't talked about GURPS with everyone, but it has come up more than a few times. And I have run demos and some campaigns with them.

Their reply comes mostly down to this.

"This is a great game, Rob. But I wouldn't be playing it if it wasn't for you. I just don't want to wade through all the books or even GURPS Lite just to run my dungeon/starship/superhero/horror adventure."

This has come up so often that I believe it is a major issue for GURPS and a major cause in why it declined faster in sales than it's competitors.

GURPS didn't mature until the very late '90s.  By then RPG players were already settled into their own RPG systems that they learned on.  GURPS 3rd and CI and CII arrived to the RPG party too late after RPGs were already in decline because of pogs and magic cards and Diablo games.

Quote from: estar;531262No my proposal are for complete RPGs with no other rule book. That why I specifically said "Powered by GURPS." See Prime Directive by Armadillo Design for an example of what a powered by GURPS RPG looks like.

I have those.

Quote from: estar;531262Another example is Chaosium Call of Cthulu versus Runequest versus Stormbringer. All three use Basic Roleplaying but all three are standalone RPGs.

Yep.  Just note that the rules are slimmed down for each of these book's settings.

Quote from: estar;531262Also I am not advocating a overhaul of the GURPS line. Only that a handful of complete "Powered by GURPS" RPGs be created as a introduction to the rest of the line. These would greatly lower the barrier to get started with GURPS and put the purchasers to the core books and the rest of the line in their desire to expand what they can do with GURPS.

Good idea.  The thing is, would RPG players spend more cash on a core rulebook.  Fantasy Flight Games has customers that apparently will keep re-buying core rules over and over with each Warhammer character book ($60 each).  Must be nice for FFG.

Quote from: estar;531262
1) GURPS already has D&D powered by GURPS. It called the Dungeon Fantasy line. The first three books occupy three of the top ten selling GURPS PDFs.

I'm looking through my GURPS DF books now.  No mention of D&D in them.  You do know that D&D is a registered trademark, right?  D&D also has a certain play style.

Quote from: estar;5312622) A powered by GURPS Fantasy RPGS doesn't need to be GURPS D&D. Instead is should focus on 150 pt fantasy character and provide a selection of monsters, items, spells with roughly the same coverage as D&D, Runequest and the other major fantasy RPGs.

GURPS has their Banestorm setting for that.

Quote from: estar;531262My group recruited many gamers in NW Pa since the late 80s to the GURPS. They wanted to do roughly the same things as they did in AD&D, dungeons and treasure findin but they wanted to do it GURPS style. Not have GURPS emulate AD&D. Understand the difference?

Yes.  So did they ever do it?  Or they just wanted to?  There were more than plenty of fantansy books for GURPS in the late '80s early '90s.

Quote from: estar;531262Back in the day it was the Bell Curve of 3D6, Character Customization, and the detailed combat. Of these Character Customization was the single greatest reason propelling players that switched to other fantasy RPGs.

Away from d20 RPGs?

Quote from: estar;531262GURPS also appealed because it made sense and it was easy to real world concepts to what you were trying to do in GURPS. GURPS was and remains a great design for RPGs.

Today the d20 system eviscerated GURPS advantage in customization. And without a intro product this hurt GURPS badly with gamers look for an alternative to D&D for fantasy RPGs.

So you saw players rushing to GURPS because of its 3d6 dice and great design.  Then the flooded d20 system market lured those same players away from GURPS?

Quote from: estar;531262D&D works in this regard because they provide lists of items, monsters and other stuff. So do other Fantasy RPGs. But GURPS has always being notorious for having piss poor monster support in the core rules. In 3rd and 4th edition there been some excellent monster books printed but you really have to like GURPS to get to the point where you are willing to buy them.

So GURPS has a great design and has excellent monstor books, but players didn't like GURPS enough so they went back to Hasbro to buy more D&D books.

Quote from: estar;531262I will have the say that Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 1 is really good for D&D style fantasy in GURPS. It much better than then any of their past 3rd or 4th edition books in that regard.

Again you are saying D&D.  Maybe as a general term covering all fantasy genre RPGs, even though each one uses a different RPG system?

Anyway... I make my own dungeons and monsters and NPCs when I need them, using the GURPS core rules and I get ideas from the GURPS Fantasy book.  I almost never use pre-printed stuff.  Just like I don't use any clipart that comes with Microsoft Word.

Quote from: estar;531262Try to get a bunch of other gamers to play or referee GURPS and let me know how it goes. I am not argue GURPS isn't a outstanding game. I am arguing that it the way is presented discourages players from taking up the game.

I'll GM a GURPS game without mentioning what the system is that I'm using to the players.  I'll have some character sheets with me and let the players choose which character they want to play.

Quote from: estar;531262Yes ALL RPGs are down, but GURPS didn't have to fall faster relative to other RPGs.

GUPS was kind of the last one into the game.  So it could easily be the first one to go out.

Quote from: estar;531262We have counter example in the generic markets. Savage World, and the BRP related games.  How are they doing now? Have they fell faster than their competitors. How Hero System doing? My view is that the GURPS/Hero System approach is not going to fly and that it was a fluke that it worked when it did. The better approach is a hybrid of what Chaosium does and what SJ Games does. Have a complete RPGs written to the standards of the major competitors of a genre to showcase your system and then have the generic core rulebook and supplements behind it.

Agreed.  But really, it's much too late to do any re-booting of RPG publishers.  People are into their phones now more than anything else.

Quote from: estar;531268What blows my mind, is what they do when they work on GURPS. For example right now there are preparing a GURPS 4e Discworld book. Probably will be the next hardcover release. I question whether that project will be the best value for the time spent on GURPS. I think they will generate far more sales by putting that effort into doing a "Powered by GURPS" Fantasy RPG.

Discworld seems like a complete waste of time.  I never bothered with the previous printings of it.  I didn't read the book.  Probably never will.  But Steve Jackson likes to publish stuff that he wants to buy.  Not what customers ask for.  Plus, he doesn't have anyone to write the books we all want to buy.  And for a reason.

Quote from: Sigmund;531275Same here, although to be fair Frank's conversion idea to make the percentile roll-over is simple and elegant as well. I'd be perfectly happy using that too.

I'll look at it again.  But I much prefer a bell curve that a 3d6 roll provides.

Quote from: Yevla;531296Although I'm sure its a fine game in it's own right, I am merely pointing out the hypocrisy of others claiming that SJG doesn't make any new GURPS material (when I've seen plenty of folks clamoring for new GURPS material) because Munchkin is the money-maker (which it is, of course), while the company is working on/releasing a new edition of Ogre (when I really don't see anyone clamoring for new Ogre releases).

In a similar vein, friends and I have often wondered why Steve Jackson has such an obsession with obscure 70s sci-fi GURPs suppliments when most of the folks I've met use GURPS to run homebrewed fantasy worlds. No one buys these things. As horribly misguided as WotC's marketing department is, at least they're trying.

Steve Jackson is like Howard Hughes.  Just not as rich.  He publishes things that only he is interested in doing.  A $100 Ogre game using '70s rules?  And there will be typos and scores of errata to download afterwards for it, just like all his other editions of Ogre have.

I would love to see more Traveller written for GURPS, but that universe is pretty much established by now and no one would buy it but me.  I might be the only one that bought GURPS New Sun, which was a (Hmm?  What is this all about.  Never heard of it before.  Now I have all the New Sun novels, and I am a huge fan of Gene Wolfe which is weird).

Quote from: languagegeek;531313Really superficially: change the name. On a shelf with other RPGs with cool, flashy, or exciting names, 'GURPS' is kinda sad for 2012.

Yes!

Quote from: Marleycat;531442I don't think GURPS is a bad game but rules lite it isn't.

If you use every rule in the book, no it isn't lite.

Quote from: misterguignol;531446Maybe he meant GURPS Lite, which is a thing that exists.  I haven't ever looked at it because GURPS isn't my kind of game at all.

I did a review of GURPS Ultra Lite on YouTube.  Their six-page rule book.

Quote from: Marleycat;531459It's a simple game to run as long as you use just the basics.  It's the original modular game, too bad it's treated so badly by SJGames.

Were there any differences you noticed? Just curious because I don't think I run any game different from a man.

No difference as far as I can tell whether a guy or gal is the GM.  Women tend to be more organized though on their laptops than guys, I've noticed.

Quote from: Simlasa;531474You might get a different opinion over on a wargaming site like The Miniatures Page.
OGRE was the starting game for a LOT of folks. The Space Gamer had good articles about it, optional units, game scenarios.
My friends and I played it (and it's GEV expansion) all through High School and even built up a force of miniatures for it.
We still get it on the table once in a while.

The keywords "starting game".  Tell a wargaming now to play Ogre.  Other worse things to do is tell a Pathfinder player to play 1979 Traveller.  AMC Pacers are not driven anymore.

Quote from: Marleycat;531493Little bit hard for a person that doesn't drive and lives in Kansas City.:)

Thanks for the offer though, seriously.

That's what Skype is for.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531513That's what Skype is for.

True, working on getting a laptop anyway given my best friend (lives in Washington) wants me to join his Dnd game via Skype.

Quote from: Marleycat;531517True, working on getting a laptop anyway given my best friend (lives in Washington) wants me to join his Dnd game via Skype.

Ok, good.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531512The keywords "starting game".  Tell a wargaming now to play Ogre.  Other worse things to do is tell a Pathfinder player to play 1979 Traveller.  AMC Pacers are not driven anymore.

I was a 3.5e player, and I took to original Traveller just fine.

You're treading dangerously close to the "games as technology" fallacy.

Quote from: J Arcane;531520I was a 3.5e player, and I took to original Traveller just fine.

You're treading dangerously close to the "games as technology" fallacy.

A group of role-players will not have a problem.  The min-max roll-players will be wanting your first born.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531521A group of role-players will not have a problem.  The min-max roll-players will be wanting your first born.

Let them eat cake.

Although I think you might be dancing around a quite important factor - our first game (I'd say first two - three systems), especially in genre of RPGs, often are very important to our expectations - first system because it's first, and the second and third because we were a) looking for something new and b) looking for something better then the first one.

Quote from: Rincewind1;531522our first game (I'd say first two - three systems), especially in genre of RPGs, often are very important to our expectations - first system because it's first, and the second and third because we were a) looking for something new and b) looking for something better then the first one.

Of course there are players that use a variety of systems.  Back in the day, a group would leave a certain RPG system simply because the publisher folded (SPI) and find a new system to get into.  Or they wanted to do a genre that wasn't fit for the system they were using.

I can't remember which system it was, but years ago I remember seeing advanced injury rules that showed cross sections of arms and torsos, etc so you could trace the path of a bullet and at what angle a sword had entered.  I want to say it was FTL: 2448 for some reason.

Quote from: Rincewind1;531522Although I think you might be dancing around a quite important factor - our first game (I'd say first two - three systems), especially in genre of RPGs, often are very important to our expectations - first system because it's first, and the second and third because we were a) looking for something new and b) looking for something better then the first one.

Definitely.

My first two rpg systems were D&D and Runequest.

My third system was less certain.  I got DragonQuest, but only played it a few times.  (We lost patience with how complicated it was at the time).  Around the same time I also picked up Marvel Super Heroes (FASERIP), which we played numerous times.  (Don't remember which one I purchased first).

In those days, I suppose I was looking for something that was less rigid than the D&D system (ie. classes, XP, etc ...), with simultaneously more complexity.

Quote from: Rincewind1;531522Let them eat cake.

Although I think you might be dancing around a quite important factor - our first game (I'd say first two - three systems), especially in genre of RPGs, often are very important to our expectations - first system because it's first, and the second and third because we were a) looking for something new and b) looking for something better then the first one.

You're definitely on to something I started with Dnd then got introduced to Warhammer, then GURPS, then White Wolf those 4 systems and expectations therein still form the basis of what I like and dislike or if I will even look at a new game.

If I was 20 years younger, I think my gaming preferences may very well be very different.

Instead of being into more complex rule systems, I think I would have became a minmax-er and rules lawyer.

Quote from: ggroy;531535If I was 20 years younger, I think my gaming preferences may very well be very different.

Instead of being into more complex rule systems, I think I would have became a minmax-er and rules lawyer.

That attitude is prevalent only because of videogames be happy you're not that kind of player. It's based on selfishness and instant gratification, neither are good qualities for a roleplayer or a rpg game.

Quote from: Marleycat;531538That attitude is prevalent only because of videogames

Hmmm ....

I was hardcore into video games in the late 1970's and early 1980's.  Though back then, many video games kept on going forever at faster speeds, until all your men were killed.

Back then the only way to really gain an unfair advantage, was if there were tricks or loopholes in the game to exploit.  (Basically programming errors).  Though one had to know about such tricks, frequently via word of mouth and/or video game magazines.

Quote from: ggroy;531542Hmmm ....

I was hardcore into video games in the late 1970's and early 1980's.  Though back then, many video games kept on going forever at faster speeds, until all your men were killed.

Back then the only way to really gain an unfair advantage, was if there were tricks or loopholes in the game to exploit.  (Basically programming errors).  Though one had to know about such tricks, frequently via word of mouth and/or video game magazines.

Exactly.  They engendered "I need to win" thinking.  Or "how do I game the system " thinking. It hasn't changed one bit in the modern generation of videogames, cheat codes included.  Same attitude and mindset dominates MMORGS.

Quote from: ggroy;531535If I was 20 years younger, I think my gaming preferences may very well be very different.

Instead of being into more complex rule systems, I think I would have became a minmax-er and rules lawyer.

When I was young and playing early RPGs like Runequest, I was like the replicant Leo in Blade Runner.  I didn't know anything about medieval settings.  I didn't know what a paladin was or what chaotic meant, etc. The DM would tell me to role-play my character and I had no idea what that meant really.

Quote from: Marleycat;531538That attitude is prevalent only because of videogames be happy you're not that kind of player. It's based on selfishness and instant gratification, neither are good qualities for a roleplayer or a rpg game.

You are wise.

Quote from: Marleycat;531543Exactly.  They engendered "I need to win" thinking.  Or "how do I game the system " thinking. It hasn't changed one bit in the modern generation of videogames, cheat codes included.  Same attitude and mindset dominates MMORGS.

One could go back further in time, such as blackjack card counters back in the 1960's.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531544When I was young and playing early RPGs like Runequest, I was like the replicant Leo in Blade Runner.  I didn't know anything about medieval settings.  I didn't know what a paladin was or what chaotic meant, etc. The DM would tell me to role-play my character and I had no idea what that meant really.

Same here, but even the DM (usually one of us) was just as equally clueless about various aspects of D&D, fantasy literature, etc ...

I was more into cheesy sci-fi and space operas back then, like Star Trek, the original Battlestar Galactica, Buck Rogers, Star Wars, etc ...

If I had come across the Traveller rpg back then, I think I probably would have been really into it.

Quote from: ggroy;531551Same here, but even the DM (usually one of us) was just as equally clueless about various aspects of D&D, fantasy literature, etc ...

I was more into cheesy sci-fi and space operas back then, like Star Trek, the original Battlestar Galactica, Buck Rogers, Star Wars, etc ...

If I had come across the Traveller rpg back then, I think I probably would have been really into it.

I would say I was exactly the same, luckily Jeff, a regular poster here gave me Traveller and what I have read so far is awesome. It makes for a great game of Serenity or Alien ......

Quote from: Marleycat;531556I would say I was exactly the same, luckily Jeff, a regular poster here gave me Traveller and what I have read so far is awesome. It makes for a great game of Serenity or Alien ......

I've heard rumors that Joss Whedon played Traveller and that inspired him to create Firefly's setting.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531512The keywords "starting game".  Tell a wargaming now to play Ogre.

Well, I think you're just plain wrong about that one. The guys I know (and plenty of folks I've read talking about it) would be happy to play. I can't think of when I've ever seen people talk bad about it.
I'm not saying it's a big-daddy of chit & hex games... but it's certainly not the 'play-a-few-times-and-forget-about-it' thing you suggest. Neither is 40K... another 'starting game' for a lot of wargamers (though quite a few bitch about that one).

'Starting Game' doesn't seem to have the same shit-stink on it for wargamers as it does for some roleplayers... 'that game I shunned long ago...'

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531577I've heard rumors that Joss Whedon played Traveller and that inspired him to create Firefly's setting.

Very cool if true, either way it's a perfect fit. And you only need the basic book to do it.

Quote from: Simlasa;531578Well, I think you're just plain wrong about that one. The guys I know (and plenty of folks I've read talking about it) would be happy to play. I can't think of when I've ever seen people talk bad about it.
I'm not saying it's a big-daddy of chit & hex games... but it's certainly not the 'play-a-few-times-and-forget-about-it' thing you suggest. Neither is 40K... another 'starting game' for a lot of wargamers (though quite a few bitch about that one).

'Starting Game' doesn't seem to have the same shit-stink on it for wargamers as it does for some roleplayers... 'that game I shunned long ago...'

I like Orge.  I don't hate it.  I just prefer more advanced wargames when having to choose one to play.  If someone is dying to play Orge, I'll play also.  I never heard anyone bitch about Warhammer 40K except for how GW handles their selling of the game to resellers.

Quote from: Marleycat;531579Very cool if true, either way it's a perfect fit. And you only need the basic book to do it.

I have the Serenity role-playing game, the game screen, and all the modules and maps for it.  I'll probably give it away if I don't ever play the thing in the next few years.  The rules did not scream "play me!"

I kind of wish that SJG would sell GURPS if they don't see any value in keeping it alive. I don't think it needs a big makeover or anything... just some loving care and some marketable direction (such as the genre/setting/system books everyone keeps suggesting)... and getting it out from under the paws of the fans who keep trying to make it into a doctoral dissertation on engineering/physics/ballistics.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531581I never heard anyone bitch about Warhammer 40K except for how GW handles their selling of the game to resellers.

We must travel in different corners of the intertubes then... from what I've seen 40K gets more grief than just about any other wargame... for the rules as well as GW's corporate corporateness. Not that most of those complaining won't keep on playing it anyway... because it's so damn ubiquitous.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531495But Steve Jackson likes to publish stuff that he wants to buy.  Not what customers ask for.  Plus, he doesn't have anyone to write the books we all want to buy.  And for a reason.

I'm still waiting for them to put out GURPS Steve Jackson.

JG

Quote from: Simlasa;531593I kind of wish that SJG would sell GURPS if they don't see any value in keeping it alive. I don't think it needs a big makeover or anything... just some loving care and some marketable direction (such as the genre/setting/system books everyone keeps suggesting)... and getting it out from under the paws of the fans who keep trying to make it into a doctoral dissertation on engineering/physics/ballistics.

I think SJG is keeping it about as alive as they can given economic circumstances.

JG

Quote from: Simlasa;531593We must travel in different corners of the intertubes then... from what I've seen 40K gets more grief than just about any other wargame... for the rules as well as GW's corporate corporateness. Not that most of those complaining won't keep on playing it anyway... because it's so damn ubiquitous.

Oh, ok.  I only hear about Warhammer 40K from the players at the tables when I'm in the game stores.  I don't belong to any 40K forums.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531582I have the Serenity role-playing game, the game screen, and all the modules and maps for it.  I'll probably give it away if I don't ever play the thing in the next few years.  The rules did not scream "play me!"

Traveller does it better anyway.:)

Quote from: James Gillen;531596I'm still waiting for them to put out GURPS Steve Jackson.

Or settle for the Chez Geek games.

Quote from: James Gillen;531597I think SJG is keeping it about as alive as they can given economic circumstances.

The CIA or FBI (I forget) left a bad vibe on him.  He had enough with lawyers.  Another event roll like that one would finish SJGames.  He just never recovered fully game-spirit wise.  Just kept an aloof presence about anything.

Working with the CIA, FBI, or NCIS is never fun.  Unless you have very high bureaucrat skills.

Quote from: Marleycat;531603Traveller does it better anyway.:)

I'm keeping my Mongoose Traveller for sure.  I play that one.  Not as much as GURPS though.

Are there any GURPS clones? The only thing I know of that comes close are the 'programmed adventures' from Dark City Games... which are pretty much solo adventures using the rules from The Fantasy Trip.
Much as I like GURPS I'd probably go for something welding a legal dupe of GURPS Lite to a specific purpose.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531601Oh, ok.  I only hear about Warhammer 40K from the players at the tables when I'm in the game stores.  I don't belong to any 40K forums.

It's been a while since I frequented a local game store... but yeah, I heard a lot less complaining during games.

Quote from: Simlasa;531614Are there any GURPS clones?

The only other stuff I've ever played that was based on GURPS were the Fallout PC games.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531606The CIA or FBI (I forget) left a bad vibe on him.  He had enough with lawyers.  Another event roll like that one would finish SJGames.  He just never recovered fully game-spirit wise.  Just kept an aloof presence about anything.

Working with the CIA, FBI, or NCIS is never fun.  Unless you have very high bureaucrat skills.

I hadn't thought about it from that angle. Huh. That makes sense if it's true. Has Steve Jackson ever made a statement that his experience with that ordeal has caused him to lose interest in his tabletop line?


To the person that asked a few pages back- yes, I meant a 4th edition Fantasy Bestiary. It's the most requested GURPS book I've seen of, from personal experience and online.

I have lots of Bestiary books for GURPS.  But I don't see a 4th edition one for fantasy.  Those books I don't use much.

Quote from: Marleycat;531603Traveller does it better anyway.:)

So use the GURPS: TRAVELLER rules with the SERENITY deckplans - its pretty close in spirit. Just declare the ship has a Jump 2 or jump 3.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;531635So use the GURPS: TRAVELLER rules with the SERENITY deckplans - its pretty close in spirit. Just declare the ship has a Jump 2 or jump 3.

- Ed C.

Yep.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531634I have lots of Bestiary books for GURPS.  But I don't see a 4th edition one for fantasy.  Those books I don't use much.

That's because you're special.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531606The CIA or FBI (I forget) left a bad vibe on him.  He had enough with lawyers.  Another event roll like that one would finish SJGames.  He just never recovered fully game-spirit wise.  Just kept an aloof presence about anything.

Working with the CIA, FBI, or NCIS is never fun.  Unless you have very high bureaucrat skills.

Or you get to date Abby Sciuto.  :D

JG

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531606The CIA or FBI (I forget) left a bad vibe on him.

Neither. The Secret Service.

See "The Hacker Crackdown" by Bruce Sterling. It's available for free pretty much everywhere, by author fiat.

Quote from: James Gillen;531891Or you get to date Abby Sciuto.  :D

My dad loves that show.  And I'm always telling him that no one working for NCIS is remotely like her or works in such an office.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;531897Neither. The Secret Service.

Ah, that's the dept.

As a former fan of GURPS who has renounced  the system, this is my opinion.

First of all, some GURPS fans seem to be under the delusion that if it weren't for Munchkin, GURPS wouldn't have lost its former share of the market and would be selling better. If only SJG supported GURPS more, it would return to its old days of glory.

This is not true. Since it was released, GURPS 4th is selling worse than GURPS 3rd, this is a fact, and SJG reacted like it should have, that is, reducing the support of GURPS and increasing the support of the things that did sell, like for example Munchkin.

So the question is, why is GURPS 4th selling worse than GURPS 3rd? I think that rules-wise, 4th is a better edition than 3rd, I like some of the rules changes so much that I preferred them over my houserules for 3rd. But not everything is perfect with GURPS 4th, and the exact problem dawned on me when I finally ran a GURPS 4th game. The problem is that GURPS has become too bloated. It's not an exclusive problem of GURPS 4th, GURPS 3rd was bloated too, but I think GURPS 4th was the straw that broke the camel's back. Every succesive edition of GURPS has become more and more bloated, until the fans said enough. Character creation is a chore, you get a long list of skills, advantages and disadvantages, most of which will not be relevant to the campaign you want to play. A lot of GMs and players don't want that, they want chargen to be as fast as possible, they want to be done with it as soon as possible and actually get to play the game. This is, in my opinion, why GURPS is losing sales more and more.

The solution? I would have a look at GURPS competitors, BRP and Savage Worlds (not at HERO, HERO is done unless they realize they have the same problem as GURPS). In spite of the Big Golden Book, the point of BRP was never to have a generic universal system, the point was to have one system for several different games. Although the core system of Call of Cthulhu, Stormbringer and RuneQuest is the same, every game has its own flavor, and the most importantly, you don't have to decide which skills or advantages are available or not, character creation is very straightforward in these games. Regarding Savage Worlds, they have always tried not to go overboard with the rules, its emphasis has always been on plug-and-play settings.

The modern gamer is generally a thirty or forty-something, with a wife/husband and children, who no longer has the time for games like GURPS or HERO. If instead of the two big GURPS corebook, you got one powered by GURPS manual tailored to a setting, with just the relevant rules for that setting and NO MORE, well, I wonder, would it do better?

Quote from: Simlasa;531614Are there any GURPS clones? The only thing I know of that comes close are the 'programmed adventures' from Dark City Games... which are pretty much solo adventures using the rules from The Fantasy Trip.

The closest thing I have ever seen is the Captain Alatriste RPG. It's clearly a GURPS derivative, but unlike GURPS, it's not generic.

Quote from: Claudius;531983First of all, some GURPS fans seem to be under the delusion that if it weren't for Munchkin, GURPS wouldn't have lost its former share of the market and would be selling better. If only SJG supported GURPS more, it would return to its old days of glory.

This is not true. Since it was released, GURPS 4th is selling worse than GURPS 3rd, this is a fact, and SJG reacted like it should have, that is, reducing the support of GURPS and increasing the support of the things that did sell, like for example Munchkin.

Word. If anything, Munchkin is probably keeping GURPS alive, by dint of keeping SJG afloat.

Quote from: Claudius;531983The modern gamer is generally a thirty or forty-something, with a wife/husband and children, who no longer has the time for games like GURPS or HERO. If instead of the two big GURPS corebook, you got one powered by GURPS manual tailored to a setting, with just the relevant rules for that setting and NO MORE, well, I wonder, would it do better?

I don't know. Those would still be some pretty hefty books. I find it hard to imagine a way to dial down the complexity of GURPS without, well, without it ceasing to be GURPS, to feel like GURPS.

The main stumbling block for me is character generation. D&D 4e circumvented this problem by making the D&D builder free at levels 1-3 (leveling is done in small increments, so the free CB was enough for us). Maybe if SJG made the character generator software a free download, things would be easier.

I don't hav e any hard data (no one does, I think), but I feel that you're right, in that the market for good, old-fashioned heavy-duty systems like GURPS and HERO seems to be contracting. Such detailed game engines seem to be increasingly the province of an aging old-schooler demographic that clings to its favorite edition, and doesn't buy new stuff (at least not in the volumes necessary to keep a line alive and kicking like back in the day).

Quote from: The Butcher;532005I don't know. Those would still be some pretty hefty books. I find it hard to imagine a way to dial down the complexity of GURPS without, well, without it ceasing to be GURPS, to feel like GURPS.

The main stumbling block for me is character generation. D&D 4e circumvented this problem by making the D&D builder free at levels 1-3 (leveling is done in small increments, so the free CB was enough for us). Maybe if SJG made the character generator software a free download, things would be easier.

I know people have different opinions on complexity. My opinion is that the core of GURPS isn't that complex. See GURPS lite. The problem is in your second paragraph. It is the sheer wealth of options. And the need to distill it for a particular campaign by players AND referees.

It used to be that it was pretty straightforward to see what you needed to do for a fantasy campaign and that the issue afflicted mainly modern and science fiction campaign.

But the GURPS 4e removed the fantasy bias and now it is truly a generic system within the core books.

To me it is blatantly obvious that to expand the audience for GURPS that you need a solid standalone intro product.  Which means more sales for the rest of the line, including the current core rulebooks, and more work for the SJ Games stable of freelancers.

GURPS 4/e doesn't need 'fixing'.

It never did.

Most of the complaints I see about it are people whininbg about how it is marketing and that if it was prssented in a different way theior friends might play it. That mostly boils down to:  "My players have a small imagination so if doesn't look like D&D they won't try it"

The similiar constant complaint seems to be about character creation being difficult.

It really isn't.

The templates in various books or pdfs make it easier - but you don't really need them. Recently I had a player completely NEW to GURPS figure out character creation with just a copy of GURPS LITE 4/e. For the specialized skills it didn't mention - he e-mailed me questions and I gave him answers from the books I had - after all he was making a Merchant captain for our STAR TREK game.

So, what the complaint about character creation really translates to is: "I am used to a game book telling me what I have based on Class system. GURPS doesn't have that - I'm confused now and lost"

Thats gamers admitting they like being told what to do and they don't want to think or decide for themselves what to do.

The GURPS books and writers give the gamer more credit for intelligence than other games do.  I don't see that as a fault or problem.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;532031GURPS 4/eThe GURPS books and writers give the gamer more credit for inmtelligence than other games do.  I don't see that as a fault or problem.

It's a problem if you're actually trying to make some money by selling the system to people... many of whom do not want the sort of mental exercise you describe in their entertainment.

Quote from: Simlasa;532045It's a problem if you're actually trying to make some money by selling the system to people... many of whom do not want the sort of mental exercise you describe in their entertainment.

Don't you get it. GURPS players are just superior to us lowly d20 shlubs. Koltar thinks so and he's openly GURPS loving. So it must be true.

No, those of us who are d20ers just aren't smart enough to be able to handle what GURPS has to offer all of us. :rolleyes:

Quote from: PaladinCA;532046Don't you get it. GURPS players are just superior to us lowly d20 shlubs. Koltar thinks so and he's openly GURPS loving. So it must be true.

No, those of us who are d20ers just aren't smart enough to be able to handle what GURPS has to offer all of us. :rolleyes:

You just don't have the IMNTELLIGENCE!

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531906My dad loves that show.  And I'm always telling him that no one working for NCIS is remotely like her or works in such an office.

The episode where she had to actually comply with agency dress code was pretty bizarre.

JG

Quote from: Claudius;531983As a former fan of GURPS who has renounced  the system, this is my opinion.

First of all, some GURPS fans seem to be under the delusion that if it weren't for Munchkin, GURPS wouldn't have lost its former share of the market and would be selling better. If only SJG supported GURPS more, it would return to its old days of glory.

This is not true. Since it was released, GURPS 4th is selling worse than GURPS 3rd, this is a fact, and SJG reacted like it should have, that is, reducing the support of GURPS and increasing the support of the things that did sell, like for example Munchkin.

So the question is, why is GURPS 4th selling worse than GURPS 3rd? I think that rules-wise, 4th is a better edition than 3rd, I like some of the rules changes so much that I preferred them over my houserules for 3rd. But not everything is perfect with GURPS 4th, and the exact problem dawned on me when I finally ran a GURPS 4th game. The problem is that GURPS has become too bloated. It's not an exclusive problem of GURPS 4th, GURPS 3rd was bloated too, but I think GURPS 4th was the straw that broke the camel's back. Every succesive edition of GURPS has become more and more bloated, until the fans said enough. Character creation is a chore, you get a long list of skills, advantages and disadvantages, most of which will not be relevant to the campaign you want to play. A lot of GMs and players don't want that, they want chargen to be as fast as possible, they want to be done with it as soon as possible and actually get to play the game. This is, in my opinion, why GURPS is losing sales more and more.

The solution? I would have a look at GURPS competitors, BRP and Savage Worlds (not at HERO, HERO is done unless they realize they have the same problem as GURPS). In spite of the Big Golden Book, the point of BRP was never to have a generic universal system, the point was to have one system for several different games. Although the core system of Call of Cthulhu, Stormbringer and RuneQuest is the same, every game has its own flavor, and the most importantly, you don't have to decide which skills or advantages are available or not, character creation is very straightforward in these games. Regarding Savage Worlds, they have always tried not to go overboard with the rules, its emphasis has always been on plug-and-play settings.

The modern gamer is generally a thirty or forty-something, with a wife/husband and children, who no longer has the time for games like GURPS or HERO. If instead of the two big GURPS corebook, you got one powered by GURPS manual tailored to a setting, with just the relevant rules for that setting and NO MORE, well, I wonder, would it do better?

As a HERO fan who's starting to feel the same way about HERO System as you do GURPS, I concur.  Not so much that there is no value in a universal system - Hero Games did OK when they finally made "Champions" a universal system for all lines in 4th Edition - but in terms of the bloat.  In my review of HERO 6E on RPG.net, I said that the decoupling of "Figured" secondary stats from Primary Characteristics led to having to buy a lot of stuff - including OCV (chance to hit) and DCV (chance to not get hit) separately before skill levels and the like led to point inflation, or needing more points to get the same quality of character or less.  And even though they increased starting character points to compensate, it still adds up to more time and calculation and complicates things unnecessarily.  And if you're trying to both get new players and keep the guys who liked the last edition just fine, the last thing you want to do is complicate things unnecessarily.

JG

Quote from: estar;532013I know people have different opinions on complexity. My opinion is that the core of GURPS isn't that complex. See GURPS lite. The problem is in your second paragraph. It is the sheer wealth of options. And the need to distill it for a particular campaign by players AND referees.

That's pretty much what I've said. GURPS is smooth enough once you start playing. The problem is that it takes a fucking eternity to start playing, especially when you only have one copy and 4-5 players.

Which is why an effective, free-to-download character generator would help a lot. For me anyway.

Quote from: Claudius;531983First of all, some GURPS fans seem to be under the delusion that if it weren't for Munchkin, GURPS wouldn't have lost its former share of the market and would be selling better. If only SJG supported GURPS more, it would return to its old days of glory.

If it weren't for Munchkins, SJGames would have been out of business a long time ago.

Quote from: Claudius;531983But not everything is perfect with GURPS 4th, and the exact problem dawned on me when I finally ran a GURPS 4th game. The problem is that GURPS has become too bloated. It's not an exclusive problem of GURPS 4th, GURPS 3rd was bloated too, but I think GURPS 4th was the straw that broke the camel's back. Every succesive edition of GURPS has become more and more bloated, until the fans said enough. Character creation is a chore, you get a long list of skills, advantages and disadvantages, most of which will not be relevant to the campaign you want to play. A lot of GMs and players don't want that, they want chargen to be as fast as possible, they want to be done with it as soon as possible and actually get to play the game. This is, in my opinion, why GURPS is losing sales more and more.

The GURPS rules say not to add everything that's listed in the book to your character.  :)  That is the lamest excuse I ever heard for crapping out on GURPS: "There's too many skills in this book.  There's too many traits.  Blah blah."  Simple answer: "Don't use them."  Even simpler answer: "You don't have enough points to spend anyway for them."  Anyway, either you want to play a detailed character, or you want to play a cardboard character.  GURPS doesn't care either way.

Quote from: Claudius;531983The solution?

Here we go.  Drumroll...

Quote from: Claudius;531983I would have a look at GURPS competitors, BRP and Savage Worlds (not at HERO, HERO is done unless they realize they have the same problem as GURPS). In spite of the Big Golden Book, the point of BRP was never to have a generic universal system, the point was to have one system for several different games. Although the core system of Call of Cthulhu, Stormbringer and RuneQuest is the same, every game has its own flavor, and the most importantly, you don't have to decide which skills or advantages are available or not, character creation is very straightforward in these games. Regarding Savage Worlds, they have always tried not to go overboard with the rules, its emphasis has always been on plug-and-play settings.

How would you compare GURPS 2nd Edition then with BRP and SW?  Why undo what GURPS 4th Edition has in it?  Anyway, if GURPS is chopped away so that it becomes another BRP or SW, then where do players go that want more realism/simulation?

Quote from: Claudius;531983The modern gamer is generally a thirty or forty-something, with a wife/husband and children, who no longer has the time for games like GURPS or HERO. If instead of the two big GURPS corebook, you got one powered by GURPS manual tailored to a setting, with just the relevant rules for that setting and NO MORE, well, I wonder, would it do better?

They'll be playing whatever rules they originally learned on.  The question is, what set of rules will they pass down to their kids?  It would kind of suck if the old farts played GURPS 4th and then passed down only BRP Cthulhu to their kids because "You kids just won't have the necessary IQ or time needed to play a system like GURPS.

I'd like to know though how many kids (age 16-20) are playing HarnMaster.

Quote from: James Gillen;532055As a HERO fan who's starting to feel the same way about HERO System as you do GURPS, I concur.  Not so much that there is no value in a universal system - Hero Games did OK when they finally made "Champions" a universal system for all lines in 4th Edition - but in terms of the bloat.

What is your opinion of HERO (BR) compared to the full-on 6th Edition rules?

Quote from: Claudius;531983The modern gamer is generally a thirty or forty-something, with a wife/husband and children, who no longer has the time for games like GURPS or HERO. If instead of the two big GURPS corebook, you got one powered by GURPS manual tailored to a setting, with just the relevant rules for that setting and NO MORE, well, I wonder, would it do better?

Worked great for Transhuman Space, I thought.

Quote from: James Gillen;532050The episode where she had to actually comply with agency dress code was pretty bizarre.

JG

The REAL NCIS invited the actress to their headquarters and loves the character that she plays.
Also, Pauley Perrette really knows what she is talking about when in character - her real life college degree is in forensics.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;532094What is your opinion of HERO (BR) compared to the full-on 6th Edition rules?

Didn't see the one for 6th Edition, but I did see the previous Sidekick for 5th Edition, and the self-contained PS 238 RPG.  Both were good examples of how you could make a good, easily-digested version of HERO System that was not only affordable but could be easily carried without having to strap it to your chest like an armor breastplate.  :D

JG

Quote from: The Butcher;532005Word. If anything, Munchkin is probably keeping GURPS alive, by dint of keeping SJG afloat.

Agreed.

QuoteI don't know. Those would still be some pretty hefty books. I find it hard to imagine a way to dial down the complexity of GURPS without, well, without it ceasing to be GURPS, to feel like GURPS.

Not only do I think it can be done, it has already been done: the Captain Alatriste RPG. The system is obviously a GURPS derivative, but it does away with all the unnecessary complication (like they say in Savage Worlds, trim the fat). For example, there are no character points, you get a few characteristic points, some advantage points, get one skill at characteristic +2, two at characteristic +1, etc, et voilà, you're done! All the skills, advantages and disadvantages are relevant to the setting, no Scuba Diving skill and the such.

Is the Captain Alatriste RPG the model GURPS should follow? I wish it was, but I might be mistaking my wishes with reality. The game is well loved, and certainly played, but it's out of print, and like all historical games, it's a niche inside another niche. Is Flashing Blades popular?

QuoteThe main stumbling block for me is character generation.

Ditto. GURPS in play is very agile, even using the optional combat rules, but character generation is a chore, and boring. I could put up with chargen, since in theory you do it only once, the problem is that anytime you bought more skill levels, or any advantage, you had to recalculate the character point totals, and to me that felt like doing chargen again and again. :banghead:

Quote from: estar;532013I know people have different opinions on complexity. My opinion is that the core of GURPS isn't that complex. See GURPS lite. The problem is in your second paragraph. It is the sheer wealth of options. And the need to distill it for a particular campaign by players AND referees.

Agreed. GURPS chargen is not complex, is a chore, and boring, but not complex. And yes, one of the problems is the very freedom it gives you to create any character. That freedom is too much, too many options.

Quote from: Claudius;532245Agreed. GURPS chargen is not complex, is a chore, and boring, but not complex. And yes, one of the problems is the very freedom it gives you to create any character. That freedom is too much, too many options.

I agree there definitely is choice paralysis it gets really to be a grind if you're creating a full aspected magic using character.:)

Quote from: Koltar;532031GURPS 4/e doesn't need 'fixing'.

It never did.

You are obviously satisfied with GURPS as it is. I am not.

QuoteMost of the complaints I see about it are people whininbg about how it is marketing and that if it was prssented in a different way theior friends might play it. That mostly boils down to:  "My players have a small imagination so if doesn't look like D&D they won't try it"

But we actually tried GURPS, it's what made us grow cold on GURPS.

Regarding the "small imagination" commentary, you might be right, my imagination is not what it used to be, paying a mortgage is a spirit crusher.

QuoteThe similiar constant complaint seems to be about character creation being difficult.

It really isn't.

In this I agree, it's not complex, it's a chore and boring.

QuoteThe templates in various books or pdfs make it easier - but you don't really need them.

I didn't find templates helpful nor satisfactory. Even with templates, you have to tally how many character points you have, which is a problem, at least to me.

QuoteSo, what the complaint about character creation really translates to is: "I am used to a game book telling me what I have based on Class system. GURPS doesn't have that - I'm confused now and lost"

Thats gamers admitting they like being told what to do and they don't want to think or decide for themselves what to do.

You say that as if that was a bad thing. It's not. The most successful RPGs ever, D&D and Vampire, were like that, you had clear archetypes on which to base your character.

I'm not saying GURPS should be a class system, I just want the good parts of GURPS without the fat. Savage Worlds and BRP don't have character classes and still they don't suffer the "too many options" problem.

QuoteThe GURPS books and writers give the gamer more credit for intelligence than other games do.  I don't see that as a fault or problem.

- Ed C.

Supposing your commentary about intelligence is true, even idiots like me :rolleyes: have the right to have fun playing RPGs.

Quote from: Simlasa;532045It's a problem if you're actually trying to make some money by selling the system to people... many of whom do not want the sort of mental exercise you describe in their entertainment.

This!!!!

To this I'd add my commentary about the 30-somethings. When I was a teenager and I had a lot of free time, I could afford that luxury, now that I have children, a mortgage, and responsibilities, I cannot, nor do I want to.

And I'm not the only one.

Quote from: PaladinCA;532046Don't you get it. GURPS players are just superior to us lowly d20 shlubs. Koltar thinks so and he's openly GURPS loving. So it must be true.

No, those of us who are d20ers just aren't smart enough to be able to handle what GURPS has to offer all of us. :rolleyes:

Ironically, I think D&D3 and D&D4 suffer from the very same problem. They have gotten too complex, bloated, and convoluted. It's one of the reasons (not the main one) why the OSR is the new cool thing.

Quote from: misterguignol;532047You just don't have the IMNTELLIGENCE!

You don't have the INMTELLIGENCE to know it's spelt INMTELLIGENCE, not IMNTELLIGENCE!!! ;)

Quote from: James Gillen;532055As a HERO fan who's starting to feel the same way about HERO System as you do GURPS, I concur.  Not so much that there is no value in a universal system - Hero Games did OK when they finally made "Champions" a universal system for all lines in 4th Edition - but in terms of the bloat.  In my review of HERO 6E on RPG.net, I said that the decoupling of "Figured" secondary stats from Primary Characteristics led to having to buy a lot of stuff - including OCV (chance to hit) and DCV (chance to not get hit) separately before skill levels and the like led to point inflation, or needing more points to get the same quality of character or less.  And even though they increased starting character points to compensate, it still adds up to more time and calculation and complicates things unnecessarily.  And if you're trying to both get new players and keep the guys who liked the last edition just fine, the last thing you want to do is complicate things unnecessarily.

JG

HERO 4th edition had more or less the same rules as HERO 5th, but the manual was slimmer, I don't know what happened. And yes, agreed.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;532089If it weren't for Munchkins, SJGames would have been out of business a long time ago.

Yes, I agree.

QuoteThe GURPS rules say not to add everything that's listed in the book to your character.  :)  That is the lamest excuse I ever heard for crapping out on GURPS: "There's too many skills in this book.  There's too many traits.  Blah blah."  Simple answer: "Don't use them."  Even simpler answer: "You don't have enough points to spend anyway for them."  Anyway, either you want to play a detailed character, or you want to play a cardboard character.  GURPS doesn't care either way.

Don't use them? That's the problem!! If I want to run or play GURPS, I get a lot of stuff I'm not going to use, that's the problem.

Regarding the "you don't have enough points to spend", that's another problem, the more powerful the characters, the more bloated. Like D&D3.

QuoteHere we go.  Drumroll...

Tachaaaan!!! :)

QuoteHow would you compare GURPS 2nd Edition then with BRP and SW?

I don't know GURPS 2nd, sorry. :idunno:

QuoteWhy undo what GURPS 4th Edition has in it?  Anyway, if GURPS is chopped away so that it becomes another BRP or SW, then where do players go that want more realism/simulation?

BRP is already a competitor of GURPS for players who are into realism/simulation. Savage Worlds is not, I have to concede that.

QuoteThey'll be playing whatever rules they originally learned on.  The question is, what set of rules will they pass down to their kids?  It would kind of suck if the old farts played GURPS 4th and then passed down only BRP Cthulhu to their kids because "You kids just won't have the necessary IQ or time needed to play a system like GURPS.

In my experience, kids have a higher tolerance to crunch than adults. Adults  have a lot of responsibilities and when they game, they want to forget them and feel like kids again.

QuoteI'd like to know though how many kids (age 16-20) are playing HarnMaster.

I'm curious too.

Quote from: Claudius;532253Ironically, I think D&D3 and D&D4 suffer from the very same problem. They have gotten too complex, bloated, and convoluted. It's one of the reasons (not the main one) why the OSR is the new cool thing.

Definitely but I think it's a combination that you have already hit on. The games have gotten more complex overall and the fanbase is aging. We just don't have the inclination or time to be involved in games that require 30 minutes or an hour to make a character. Or have hours to create cool new world whole cloth.

Then you have something like OSRIC which mostly has medium complexity which hits the 3e itch and because EVERYBODY and their uncle played one version or another sometime it's easy to just wing or use with old boxed stuff you might have or that Greyhawk book sitting on the shelf.

I am only saying this not because I dislike GURPS but the opposite, I like the game and want it to be much more.

Quote from: Géza Echs;532102Worked great for Transhuman Space, I thought.

I would go further, even.

Quote from: Claudius;532255You don't have the INMTELLIGENCE to know it's spelt INMTELLIGENCE, not IMNTELLIGENCE!!! ;)

I was actually hoping someone would catch that.

I was with you for a while Claudius, but now it just sounds like you don't like point buy games anyway, so I'm not sure I see the point.

Seems like you should just play something else.

GURPS 3e was a solidish core, and a good system.  It's weaknesses were largely just from a lack of broadness in the core (lack of SF support), and a technique of trying to "balance" magic and psi by just making them hideously complicated nested point sinks.

I thought once that what 3e needed was just more of those common options that were once in the compendiums and genre books to be included in the core, but what I think it actually needed was just a clean-up, and a broader, but still modular and accessible base.

3e was a good game.  4e could be a good game, but it's buried beneath a bunch of shit that doesn't need to be in the corebook, and it makes navigating the damn thing a colossal chore.  

Simplifying skill buying would also clean up a lot of the math involved, and make it a much more straightforward process.  All that shit with half-points and division and calculating from a bunch of disparate stat bases needs to go.  Also, fucking percentage modifiers are an AWFUL idea, and make chargen in 4e feel like fucking HERO.  

What it needs to do is go back to the 3e level of depth, just with wider coverage.  Let me play low fantasy, modern thrillers and action, and Firefly-type SF, all in one corebook.  Those kinds of low-powered genres are where GURPS strengths have always been, so focus on those and giving me the tools for those in the corebook, and leave all the 37 damage types and superpowers and percentile point mods to other "advanced" level sourcebooks.

Quote from: Claudius;532259Regarding the "you don't have enough points to spend", that's another problem, the more powerful the characters, the more bloated. Like D&D3.

Your GURPS character starts with few points.  I can't help you if you're giving all the players huge amount of points in order for them to buy up the entire chapter on skills.  :)

Common sense tells you what skills to pick for the particular world setting.  And if you pick a "wrong" skill (say if during play, you wish you had bought a different skill instead), you can always learn that other skill.  You're supposed to be role-playing your character the way she/he is anyway.  Not maxing out every point spent on the most optimum skills and advantages possible.  Otherwise, you're only playing the game for the dice rolls, and you get pissy if you can't roll your way.

Quote from: J Arcane;5322653e was a good game.  4e could be a good game

I looked that the e4udpate that shows what was changed from GURPS 3rd to 4th edition.  I like that the result charts and other die roll charts in 4th were simplified so finding results is quicker.  I like that GURPS 4th got rid of the Physical Hard and Mental Hard modifiers for skills, for example, and changed them to DEX Hard and IQ Hard (since player sheets don't have a "Physical/Mental" attribute or meaning on them).  Just little things like that help speed up what a player needs to compare his/her 3d6 to.

For an RPG that has only 4 attributes in it, basically.  It's interesting how well the game system simulates everything.  Last night I was reading through SPI's Universe.  So many attributes.  So much squaring of numbers (attributes even) during combat rolls.  No wonder I didn't play the game as much as I had wanted to.  I think I only used the world Generation system from that game.  Every player needed a calculator for Universe.  Maybe because calculators were still new, the game designers thought "let's use these!"  :)  I still don't know if Universe simulated things well or not.

Quote from: Claudius;532261I would go further, even.

You mean in terms of having more than just the generalized rules throughout, then an appended focused version of GURPS Lite in the back of the book? I'd agree - I think that would be even better than what THS had (which, again, I thought was fantastic).

I wonder if the base of role-players has just shrunk too small for a generic system to have a big market.  

One of the great things about a system like Gurps when I was at Uni was that if I had an premise for a modern day or sci-fi campaign, I could just use Gurps.

But if they're aren't enough gamers out there who want to try something other than D&D, then these systems will struggle.

Quote from: Dog Quixote;532771I wonder if the base of role-players has just shrunk too small for a generic system to have a big market.  

One of the great things about a system like Gurps when I was at Uni was that if I had an premise for a modern day or sci-fi campaign, I could just use Gurps.

But if they're aren't enough gamers out there who want to try something other than D&D, then these systems will struggle.

This.

I, and most of the other people complaining about marketing and the need for more entry-level products are basically complaining about one core thing- we cannot find enough people to play gurps with us. And that means we'll buy less gurps books because we don't get to use them. And this means less gurps for everyone.

And we often truly love the system. Despite every complaint I've ever written about SJGs, I think gurps is positively brilliant.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;467542It's 2011, and if you're still on the roll-under wagon that is fucking pathetic.

-Frank

You're pathetic.

I don't think roll under has any particular inferiority to roll over, except for possibly a psychological element.

RPGPundit

Quote from: 1989;532859You're pathetic.

Wow, that's old. ;)

Frank's a smart guy, but he gets way caught up in minutiae which, IME, aren't always relevant to people's actual enjoyment of the game.

I stand by my previous assesment, BTW:

Quote from: The Butcher;467548I agree that adding comes easier to most people, than subtracting. I just think you're overblowing the relevance of this, in typical theRPGsite style.

Straight-up roll-under is just as easy as roll-over. The trick is applying modifiers to the target number, before rolling, rather than to the roll's results.

Quote from: The Butcher;533164Frank's a smart guy, but he gets way caught up in minutiae which, IME, aren't always relevant to people's actual enjoyment of the game.

Is he? After all he has said in this very thread about roll-over and roll-under, well, I don't want to call names, but frankly... :confused: . I may not be a genius, and haven't studied maths for a long time, and yet, I know that roll-under and roll-over are mathematically THE SAME FUCKING THING. It's like saying that 6+3 is better than 3+6. :confused:

Quote from: Claudius;533186Is he? After all he has said in this very thread about roll-over and roll-under, well, I don't want to call names, but frankly... :confused: . I may not be a genius, and haven't studied maths for a long time, and yet, I know that roll-under and roll-over are mathematically THE SAME FUCKING THING. It's like saying that 6+3 is better than 3+6. :confused:

But they are not exactly the same from the point of view of cognitive operations.

Particularly, I have used and keep using Frank's suggestions about making Cthulhu a roll-over system and it's been a complete success.

Quote from: Imperator;533192But they are not exactly the same from the point of view of cognitive operations.

Please elaborate.

QuoteParticularly, I have used and keep using Frank's suggestions about making Cthulhu a roll-over system and it's been a complete success.

I'm not surprised, as I said mathematically there is no difference.

Roll - over is just a serious game. Roll - under is for children.

Quote from: Imperator;533192But they are not exactly the same from the point of view of cognitive operations.

Particularly, I have used and keep using Frank's suggestions about making Cthulhu a roll-over system and it's been a complete success.

I get that, man, and more power to you. I just don't buy into the anti-roll-under crusade, and the "objectively better" line of argument. It makes Frank look like an idiot savant of RPG rules-tinkering.

Quote from: Rincewind1;533222Roll - over is just a serious game. Roll - under is for children.

Honestly, no offence meant, but this has to be the most nonsensical argument I've heard yet since joining this board.

Quote from: Géza Echs;533238Honestly, no offence meant, but this has to be the most nonsensical argument I've heard yet since joining this board.

I'm pretty sure Rince was kidding.  He's a WFRP fan, after all.

Quote from: misterguignol;533242I'm pretty sure Rince was kidding.  He's a WFRP fan, after all.

And I even used a cursive this time, in hope that a ":rolleyes:" would be unnecessary at the end of that post.

Quote from: misterguignol;533242I'm pretty sure Rince was kidding.  He's a WFRP fan, after all.

I sure hope he was kidding! Still, my comment stands for the rest of the "argument" on roll-under versus roll-over throughout the thread.

Quote from: Géza Echs;533245I sure hope he was kidding! Still, my comment stands for the rest of the "argument" on roll-under versus roll-over throughout the thread.

Preference of mechanic, is, generally speaking, a purely subjective matter of opinion. And opinions are like assholes - everybody has one. Claiming "objective superiority" is ridiculous and both logically and in fact, philosophically flawed on so many levels, that it makes me wonder sometimes how people manage to get their shoelaces tied.

Then again, apparently some do have a problem with them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBBwKWSxoMI

Hulks and Horrors is roll-under and proud of it.

Quote from: Rincewind1;533246Preference of mechanic, is, generally speaking, a purely subjective matter of opinion. And opinions are like assholes - everybody has one. Claiming "objective superiority" is ridiculous and both logically and in fact, philosophically flawed on so many levels, that it makes me wonder sometimes how people manage to get their shoelaces tied.

I have no problem if somebody were to argue that a particular mechanic were their personal favourite - that's cool. But claiming that one is objectively better than the other is flat-out dumb. Particularly, as someone pointed out upthread, that the difference is that of 3+6 versus 6+3.

QuoteThen again, apparently some do have a problem with them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBBwKWSxoMI

Rolfe's just being a comedian, though, which is cool. Love his work, for the most part.

Quote from: Claudius;533194Please elaborate.

Making a gross oversimplification here.

Some operations are easier on the brain than others. Addition is easier than substraction, for example. It is postulated also that our brain has an easier time with roll-over systems than with roll-under.

QuoteI'm not surprised, as I said mathematically there is no difference.

Actually, there is no difference regarding the success %, but is far easier to calculate:
- opposed rolls
- critical and special hits.

Using Frank's system every successful roll that ends in 0 or 5 is a crit. You don't have to recalculate the % of an special success according to the modifiers. Also, it gives you an easy peasy way of making opposed rolls, which is absent from CoC rules.

Seriously, is a huge advantage.

Quote from: The Butcher;533228I get that, man, and more power to you. I just don't buy into the anti-roll-under crusade, and the "objectively better" line of argument. It makes Frank look like an idiot savant of RPG rules-tinkering.

Oh, of course, crusades are absurd.

Quote from: Imperator;533286Making a gross oversimplification here.

Some operations are easier on the brain than others. Addition is easier than substraction, for example. It is postulated also that our brain has an easier time with roll-over systems than with roll-under.


Actually, there is no difference regarding the success %, but is far easier to calculate:
- opposed rolls
- critical and special hits.

Using Frank's system every successful roll that ends in 0 or 5 is a crit. You don't have to recalculate the % of an special success according to the modifiers. Also, it gives you an easy peasy way of making opposed rolls, which is absent from CoC rules.

Seriously, is a huge advantage.

Calculating CoC's critical rules and opposing rolls requires mathematical skills of adding and subtracting up to a 100, and be able to divide by 5 and round up/down. I understand that public schooling is down everywhere, but for fuck's sake. It's about as much of an advantage as shaving legs for Tour De France - you look better, and it's easier to put plasters on, but not much else.

Mind you - I don't disagree it's not an advantage, but it's imo veeeeery minor one. And on the other hand, roll - under systems have a huge advantage of being quite easily readable and explainable - even though humans apparently do not understand probability that well.

Quote from: Claudius;533186Is he? After all he has said in this very thread about roll-over and roll-under, well, I don't want to call names, but frankly... :confused: . I may not be a genius, and haven't studied maths for a long time, and yet, I know that roll-under and roll-over are mathematically THE SAME FUCKING THING. It's like saying that 6+3 is better than 3+6. :confused:

I see rolling under as making a task easier by adding skills and tech level and other bonuses to your attribute and then rolling a value less than or equal to it.

I see rolling over as making a task easier by subtracting skills and tech level and attributes and other bonuses from a target number and then rolling a value equal to or greater than it.

Now if changes are being made to a die roll in order for a player to reach a goal, I'm not for that.  I like my die roll value to be the final number.  I don't want to be adding and subracting values to or from a die I just rolled (or even squaring a die roll).  That's like shooting a gun at a bad guy and missing him, but then moving the bad guy in front of the bullet so that a hit was achieved after the fact.

I find addition is easy for bookkeeping. THAC0 is understandably confusing for some. Counting lost arrows by hash marks spent, rather than keeping a running tally by subtraction, feels easier.

I find roll-over/under, since it is usually a pass/fail function, is simply a comparison of numbers requiring zero addition or subtraction. Systems, in my experience, usually don't care by how much you pass or fail.

I like to keep my probability spectrum fixed, like CoC's 1~100%. I don't like to do any extra calculations when determining TN/DC/'whatev'.

Roll-over, in my experience, complicates maintaining my fixed spectrum on my side when I determine TN/DC/'whatev', thus giving me more bookkeeping. This makes me sad.

Therefore, I find roll-under works fastest for my needs overall.

BUT, I would never come out with the dictate that Roll-Under is provably empirically better. Roll-over/under is nothing more than greater-than/less-than comparisons for a pass/fail test. It's a preference, nothing more. Speaking ex cathedra about it sounds rather silly.

Quote from: Imperator;533286Making a gross oversimplification here.

Some operations are easier on the brain than others. Addition is easier than substraction, for example. It is postulated also that our brain has an easier time with roll-over systems than with roll-under.

Now I get it, thank you! :)

Yes, it's true that some operations seem easier. For example, since I was a kid I cannot multiply 7x6. I cannot. But if I think "Hey, 7x6, 6x7. 42. I got it". You see? My brain prefers 6x7 to 7x6. But mathematically, they are the same thing. The difference is illusory.

Do our brains find roll-over easier than roll-under? I think it depends on every person. I usually find roll-under easier than roll-over, but that's me, and I don't find it much easier, I have no difficulties with roll-over systems. For example, in Rolemaster it's very usual to add double digit numbers, let's say you have +47 OB and roll 52. How much? 99. It's cumbersome at first, but when you have performed a few operations, it gets much easier. In fact I enjoy the "rush" I feel when my brain gets used to adding double digit numbers in few seconds. I'll have to play Rolemaster again!! :)

QuoteActually, there is no difference regarding the success %,

Exactly.

Quotebut is far easier to calculate:
- opposed rolls
- critical and special hits.

Using Frank's system every successful roll that ends in 0 or 5 is a crit. You don't have to recalculate the % of an special success according to the modifiers. Also, it gives you an easy peasy way of making opposed rolls, which is absent from CoC rules.

Using the "0 and 5 are crits" rule is a great idea, it's very intuitive. But that idea is not exclusive of roll-over systems, you could use it with a roll-under system too. In fact, that's exactly how crits work in Hârnmaster, a roll-under percentile system. I bet he got that idea from Hârnmaster, and if he didn't, well, great ideas are great.

Quote from: Claudius;533554Using the "0 and 5 are crits" rule is a great idea, it's very intuitive. But that idea is not exclusive of roll-over systems, you could use it with a roll-under system too. In fact, that's exactly how crits work in Hârnmaster, a roll-under percentile system. I bet he got that idea from Hârnmaster, and if he didn't, well, great ideas are great.

Oh, absolutely. I can't see why not. For example:

You have a Gun 64% plus 15% for gun quality minus 27% due to distance and lighting and another minus 6% just because. So you have a 46%. You roll and if your roll is under 46 you succeed, and if it ends in 0 or 5 you crit. Not hard at all.

No, not hard at all. You just described how Hârnmaster works.

Regarding opposed rolls, they're easy to resolve with roll-under, MRQ2 does them very well.

I'm not trying to convince you that what you did with Call of Cthulhu is badwrong, the only thing you did was to change the way the information is portrayed.

Quote from: Claudius;534081No, not hard at all. You just described how Hârnmaster works.

Regarding opposed rolls, they're easy to resolve with roll-under, MRQ2 does them very well.

I'm not trying to convince you that what you did with Call of Cthulhu is badwrong, the only thing you did was to change the way the information is portrayed.

Actually the biggest benefit is that you have it easier to make opposed rolls, like Hide vs Spot Hidden and all that.

Quote from: Imperator;534123Actually the biggest benefit is that you have it easier to make opposed rolls, like Hide vs Spot Hidden and all that.

Why do you say that? I find the way MRQ2 handles opposed rolls equally easy. You know, like el Precio Justo (I knew how to say it in English but I can't remember :o).

Quote from: Claudius;534179Why do you say that? I find the way MRQ2 handles opposed rolls equally easy. You know, like el Precio Justo (I knew how to say it in English but I can't remember :o).

I roll 76+45= 121 Spot hidden vs you 45+56= 101 Hide, so I win ;)

Quote from: Imperator;534199I roll 76+45= 121 Spot hidden vs you 45+56= 101 Hide, so I win ;)

That's not easier than the way MRQ2 handles opposed rolls. I have Perception 63%, roll 60, you have Hide 78%, roll 55, I win. I think that roll-under opposed rolls are even easier (but not that much).

Sorry if it looks like I'm trying to convince you that you're doing it wrong (you're not, roll-over is fine), what I'm arguing, is that Mr. Trollman's assertion that roll-over is superior to roll-under is a pile of bullshit. Roll-over and roll-under are exactly the same thing, but expressed in a different way. Like 9x4 and 4x9.