Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on March 31, 2021, 07:28:00 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2021, 06:51:54 PMWhat moral messages is killing orcs supposed to teach? They're not a metaphor for anything real.

Much as I love Tolkien, I suspect that what is to blame for this perpetual conflation is his portrayal of orcs (and especially the half-orc thugs in the Shire, near the end of ROTK) as using deliberately "dumbed down" speech patterns when compared to the eloquence of the heroic characters. There's a quote from Appendix F which I have always remembered ever since I first read it:

QuoteOrcs and Trolls spoke as they would, without love of words or things; and their language was actually more degraded and filthy than I have shown it. I do not suppose that any will wish for a closer rendering, though models are easy to find. Much the same sort of talk can still be heard among the orc-minded; dreary and repetitive with hatred and contempt, too long removed from good to retain even verbal vigor, save in the ears of those to whom only the squalid sounds strong.

This is an unsurprising perspective given Tolkien's love of language. However, if one uses verbal and literary eloquence as a proxy marker for education level, which in turn serves as a proxy marker for general social class (look at how much Sharkey's thugs, or the trolls Bilbo encounters in The Hobbit, sound almost exactly like the modern-day "chav"), it's not too much of a reach to suggest that the Foul Folk (orcs, trolls, goblins, ogres and the like) can be read as allegorical stand-ins for "Those People" -- the ones who'll send property values plummeting once they move into the neighbourhood, and from whom it's ultimately futile to expect civilized, peaceful coexistence because they either don't understand those terms or don't share "Our Kind's" definition of them.

"There's earth under his old feet, and clay on his fingers; wisdom in his bones and both his eyes are open." - Tom Bombadil on Farmer Maggot.

Tolkien didn't seem to use social status as a proxy marker for "those people" in the first place. You're making quite a jump, there.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 31, 2021, 07:53:47 PM
Tolkien didn't seem to use social status as a proxy marker for "those people" in the first place. You're making quite a jump, there.

  It should be noted that there's a passage in Letters where Tolkien explicitly vetoes the idea of a BBC adaptation giving the orcs lower-class accents.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 31, 2021, 04:08:40 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 31, 2021, 03:58:10 PM
In general, I don't disagree that marketing for Coyote & Crow has lots of buzzwords and signaling for liberals. On the other hand, it seems like hating on Coyote & Crow seems to be the virtue signaling here on this forum -- including bringing up all sorts of shit that isn't in the preview or even relevant for the game.

Man, your deflection gets old.

QuoteWe have a diverse team of folks working on this game, most of whom are Native. Additionally, we are striving to bring in other marginalized voices whenever possible. Our team features people from across the LGBTQIA spectrum, including two spirit folks. It's not even a question that this game is political. If you have a problem with a game where there are no people of European descent represented, than this game is probably not for you. That said, we've truly built this game to be played by everyone. It might seem like a big leap, but don't worry, we're going to hold your hand the whole way through and you'll be so happy you stepped off the edge into this vibrant fresh world.

This is blatant leftist authoritarian identity politics. Hard pass, and I'm sure they won't miss my evil, Nazi, white, colonial hegemonic ass.

I'm not arguing anything about the politics of the Coyote & Crow creators. Yes, I agree they sound like leftists.

My problem was with people saying stuff like about how it's magic system was going to have X or Y, when it doesn't have a magic system -- or how they treat tribal affiliation like Vampire clans when they don't. If someone's going to talk shit about a game, the shit should be stuff that's actually there.

I haven't backed it myself - I'm not sold that it's going to be a good product. However, I don't generally care about the politics of the creator - I find that I like games from people of varying politics in practice.

Quote from: moonsweeper on March 31, 2021, 07:28:11 PM

Quote from: Reckall on March 31, 2021, 06:58:47 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2021, 06:51:54 PM
However, it's also established that being aware of one's susceptibility to suggestion makes one more resistant to it. That's why cults are selective about who they target for conversion and single out vulnerable people who are more susceptible to suggestion.

IMHO, this is why "Midsommar" is a great movie. It showed just that, in front of your eyes and in real time. And I'm scared by the number of people who think that "Midsommar" had an happy ending... 

There are people who thought it had a happy ending?  Please tell me you are kidding,,,

Spoiler

At the end everybody shares her grief by literally crying together with her (compare this with the beginning, when she cried alone with her boyfriend "just holding her"); those who caused her suffering are punished (horribly, but she had repressed a lot of hate and inability to stand for herself during the years); in the last shot we see that her is in Nirvana ---> "Midsommar" has an happy ending for her. Which is why, for any sane person, that ending is so chilling.

The movie is now actually used by some institutions who study how certain people can end up in cults or cult-like organizations.

"How Midsommar Brainwashes You" analyses why some people "smile warmly at the end of the movie" - with direct quotes posted by "ecstatic people":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr2j0o_B2mw

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on March 31, 2021, 07:28:00 PM
What the modern SJP ironically fails to realize is that this dynamic is pretty much independent of race, and tends much more to be about class and culture: any ethnic group can be Those People in the right context, and both Men and Dwarves have their moments of being Those People to the Elves in The Silmarillion.

Heck, the Elves even have their moments of being 'Those People'. Feanor says hi.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 01, 2021, 08:19:37 AM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on March 31, 2021, 07:28:00 PM
What the modern SJP ironically fails to realize is that this dynamic is pretty much independent of race, and tends much more to be about class and culture: any ethnic group can be Those People in the right context, and both Men and Dwarves have their moments of being Those People to the Elves in The Silmarillion.

Heck, the Elves even have their moments of being 'Those People'. Feanor says hi.

I think that Tolkien was well aware of both racism and its unavoidability. This doesn't mean that he was a racist or was happy about it, only that even in the portrayal of a fantasy world you couldn't just handwave away this problem.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 31, 2021, 07:53:47 PM"There's earth under his old feet, and clay on his fingers; wisdom in his bones and both his eyes are open." - Tom Bombadil on Farmer Maggot.

Tolkien didn't seem to use social status as a proxy marker for "those people" in the first place. You're making quite a jump, there.

Agreed, absolutely. Given Sam Gamgee's status as "the real hero" (in more or less Tolkien's own words) of LOTR, and the moral falls of characters like Boromir, Denethor and Saruman, nobody can conclude on a closer reading that Tolkien thought there was any correlation between social class, or knowledge of high lore, and moral character. Saruman specifically is an obvious and explicit example of the fact that verbal eloquence can be used for evil too.

That said, there's a difference between what a closer reading reveals and what a superficial impression can often give off, and SJP arguments are all about the superficial impressions because the philosophy believes that's what most people are really most effectively and immediately moved by, in the end.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 31, 2021, 08:07:47 PM
  It should be noted that there's a passage in Letters where Tolkien explicitly vetoes the idea of a BBC adaptation giving the orcs lower-class accents.

And it's also worth noting that many of the orcs often speak more eloquently than Bilbo's trolls or Sharkey's thugs.  Compare Grishnakh speaking to Merry and Pippin:

"My dear tender little fools, everything you have, and everything you know, will be got out of you in due time: everything! You'll wish there was more that you could tell to satisfy the Questioner, indeed you will: quite soon. We shan't hurry the enquiry. Oh dear no! What do you think you've been kept alive for? My dear little fellows, please believe me when I say that it was not out of kindness: that's not even one of Uglúk's faults."

-- to the thug in the Shire talking to Frodo:

"Lotho! He knows all right. Don't you worry. He'll do what Sharkey says. Because if a Boss gives trouble, we can change him. See? And if little folks try to push in where they're not wanted, we can put them out of mischief. See? ...Swagger it, swagger it, my little cock-a-whoop. But that won't stop us living in this fat little country where you have lazed long enough. And (snaps his fingers in Frodo's face) King's messengers! That for them! When I see one, I'll take notice, perhaps."

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on April 01, 2021, 11:22:33 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 31, 2021, 07:53:47 PM"There's earth under his old feet, and clay on his fingers; wisdom in his bones and both his eyes are open." - Tom Bombadil on Farmer Maggot.

Tolkien didn't seem to use social status as a proxy marker for "those people" in the first place. You're making quite a jump, there.

Agreed, absolutely. Given Sam Gamgee's status as "the real hero" (in more or less Tolkien's own words) of LOTR, and the moral falls of characters like Boromir, Denethor and Saruman, nobody can conclude on a closer reading that Tolkien thought there was any correlation between social class, or knowledge of high lore, and moral character. Saruman specifically is an obvious and explicit example of the fact that verbal eloquence can be used for evil too.

That said, there's a difference between what a closer reading reveals and what a superficial impression can often give off, and SJP arguments are all about the superficial impressions because the philosophy believes that's what most people are really most effectively and immediately moved by, in the end.

Ah, I mistook your intent then. Carry on.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2021, 02:08:03 PM
Also, for those who want the source documents for the neo-Aztec revival: https://christopherrufo.com/revenge-of-the-gods/

And Snopes published a "fact check" of the press release. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/california-ethnic-studies-genocide/

Assuming Snopes is still remotely reliable and hasn't been completely infiltrated by the woke... R. Tolteka Cuauhtin is still appropriating Aztec religion, sanitizing it of all the unattractive human sacrifice bits and everything else related to Aztec culture, and selectively reinterpreting ancient beliefs to suit his political agenda.

I don't think anybody has a problem with Mexicayotl reviving (sanitized versions of) ancient indigenous religious beliefs and practices, heck we do the same thing with the Abrahamic religions all the time, but if you're just making shit up and misappropriating then what's even the point?

I'm pretty sure that alternate history video games made by white people are more respectful of actual Aztec beliefs and personhood.

If I had kids and found out their school had made them chant to pagan gods, there would be a lawsuit so fast that the sonic boom would rattle the courthouse.  I have no room for any tolerance for such a brazen violation of the separation of church and state.  Coming up with bullshit like, 'oh, it's not these gods, it's like, concepts maaaan' does not for one moment fly with me.  Jesus is all about love and acceptance, so let's force the kids to pray to Jesus because that's really just telling them to love and accept, right?  Be interesting to see how many milliseconds pass between a school doing that and everyone there being fired.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 01, 2021, 02:46:35 PM
Assuming Snopes is still remotely reliable and hasn't been completely infiltrated by the woke

Unless something has changed, "completely infiltrated by the woke" is an understatement when it comes to Snopes.

Would be happy to be wrong in this case.

 Seems the coyote and crow game does not simply have political creators, but is political itself and pushing leftism pretty hard (and probably the toxic sort).  I read about it and I say, good.  I think games should be created for all the people who want a very left, very political game.  This way, they can keep their bullshit faaar away from games I enjoy.  I have no issues, at all, with people doing what they like with their rules pushing woke.  I do begin to take issue with pushing mainstream games to woke, which is seems to be all that lots of these doucherockets are capable of (parasitism of someone else's creation) instead of just making a good game with their screwy slant.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 01, 2021, 02:46:35 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2021, 02:08:03 PM
Also, for those who want the source documents for the neo-Aztec revival: https://christopherrufo.com/revenge-of-the-gods/

And Snopes published a "fact check" of the press release. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/california-ethnic-studies-genocide/

Assuming Snopes is still remotely reliable and hasn't been completely infiltrated by the woke... R. Tolteka Cuauhtin is still appropriating Aztec religion, sanitizing it of all the unattractive human sacrifice bits and everything else related to Aztec culture, and selectively reinterpreting ancient beliefs to suit his political agenda.

I don't think anybody has a problem with Mexicayotl reviving (sanitized versions of) ancient indigenous religious beliefs and practices, heck we do the same thing with the Abrahamic religions all the time, but if you're just making shit up and misappropriating then what's even the point?

I'm pretty sure that alternate history video games made by white people are more respectful of actual Aztec beliefs and personhood.

Won't be long before the human sacrifice gets brought back in.

Quote from: horsesoldier on April 02, 2021, 09:48:48 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 01, 2021, 02:46:35 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2021, 02:08:03 PM
Also, for those who want the source documents for the neo-Aztec revival: https://christopherrufo.com/revenge-of-the-gods/

And Snopes published a "fact check" of the press release. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/california-ethnic-studies-genocide/

Assuming Snopes is still remotely reliable and hasn't been completely infiltrated by the woke... R. Tolteka Cuauhtin is still appropriating Aztec religion, sanitizing it of all the unattractive human sacrifice bits and everything else related to Aztec culture, and selectively reinterpreting ancient beliefs to suit his political agenda.

I don't think anybody has a problem with Mexicayotl reviving (sanitized versions of) ancient indigenous religious beliefs and practices, heck we do the same thing with the Abrahamic religions all the time, but if you're just making shit up and misappropriating then what's even the point?

I'm pretty sure that alternate history video games made by white people are more respectful of actual Aztec beliefs and personhood.

Won't be long before the human sacrifice gets brought back in.

And from their POV: feature, not bug; and mission accomplished.

Yes, they are exactly like that.