I had a thread in February about "Different kinds of orcs", which lead me down a rabbit hole of all sorts of variations in the history of orcs in RPGs. I'm in the process of compiling all of that up in an essay.

The thing that has stood out to me especially is the transition of orcs from Tolkien to early D&D.

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Orcs in Tolkien are short, but even so they are powerful - a major force in the world that threatened elves as well as many humans and dwarves combined. To make up for being short, they are clever with cavalry, factories, inventions, and advanced (but brutal) medicine.

Early D&D split orcs and goblins into being different creatures, but beyond the stats, the D&D settings and adventures had both orcs and goblins relegated to being more pests than existential threats. Greyhawk is intentionally humanocentric - covered in human-lead and human-dominated nations, and orcs and goblins are largely a footnote in them - mentioned as a minority in a few evil lands (like the Pomarj and Iuz). I can't recall any old D&D modules where orcs or goblins are the primary antagonists - they're almost always a minor side problem.

This was even cemented in Roger Moore's orc creation myth - which established orcs as the underdogs. The humans and demi-humans claimed all the lands of the world, and Gruumsh had to create unwanted wastelands and holes for orcs to live in.

Later, in Warhammer 40K and Warcraft that orcs were reinvented as taller-than-human brutes with their own barbaric innovations - partly because orcs were player races in those games, with players taking orcs to winning. D&D partly borrowed from these reinvented orcs, but it still seems like orcs are largely a minor sideshow in 3.0E to 5.0E.

There is nothing like Mordor in any of the official D&D settings that I know of. Eberron has the monster nation of Droamm, but it is a fledging underdog among the established powerful human/demi-human nations.

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I'm not saying there's anything wrong with orcs as pests, but I think it's an assumption to question. Does anyone use a fantasy world where orcs are a major force like in Tolkien? Would you be interested in a D&D-ish setting like that?

I've run a number of Middle Earth games recently, so I've had threatening orcs that way - but I haven't done it in other settings.

I feel like what happened is that orcs are so iconic, game designers want them to be in the game right from the start, at first level.  But everything you face at first level is a speed bump by 5th, so they're relegated to pest status.

This actually doesn't happen in most of my games, not because I was trying to avoid it but as a side effect of how I approach things.  In my D&D games, any anthropomorphic race can have a class and levels.  Thus the orcs in the monster manual are the bog standard base model, but at 5th level you might face a group of orcs who are mostly second level fighters, with a 5th level fighter leader and a 4th level warlock.  (Or whatever)  Intelligent races can always be a challenge.  Racial abilities like speed, infravision, special attacks, are just added on top of the class.

I often have actual orc nations in my campaign.  They're usually far from the campaign area unless I want a world-at-war game, as I don't feel an orc nation and a human nation could coexist in close proximity for long.

((double))

Something that really helped me as a DM/GM/Judge/referee was the 'Beyond Random Encounters' section of the first annual monstrous compendium for 2e. For decades I have used that advice and have had worlds that were not humancentric or at least this was unknown. Setting the mood and using vague and sometimes ominous descriptions instead of saying, 'Three orcs jump out at you, what do you do?'. My OSE group gets so panicky in unknown territory that I absolutely love it. Orcs can make ominous sounds in the dark that are enough to spook the players. Rumors, whether true of false, of large, distant realms falling to an orc warlord can make them think twice about blindly raiding an orc camp. If the orcs are just a pest, change that if you want to.

Quote from: jhkim on April 29, 2025, 02:34:54 PMEberron has the monster nation of Droamm, but it is a fledging underdog among the established powerful human/demi-human nations

Eberron also has the goblinoid nation of Darguun, which is a modern attempt to rebuild the ancient Dhakaani Empire. You also have the traditional lands of the orcs in the Shadow Marches and Demon Wastes (the latter of which can be Eberron's Mordor if that's what you're looking for). In Eberron, the seperation of orcs and goblinoids is fairly meaningful.

The problem with Tolkienesque Orcs is that one of Tolkien's biggest mistakes revolves around Orcs; they basically ceased to exist after the fall of Sauron.

For the meticulous plotting detail for the rest of LotR, this feels utterly baffling. It is as if Tolkien didn't want to waste word count on managing the denoument for a whole race of antagonists, and so he drew a big editorial circle around them and deleted them. Consequently, we must also conclude we never really got to see Orc culture as its own thing; we only ever saw Sauron reflected.

The other thing to remember when talking about RPGs specifically is that RPGs tend to have much higher power scaling than LotR did. Yes, some of the characters in LotR were definitely epic heroes, but when they roll up against a Balrog, they have to simply flee, with only the Maiar in the party even standing a chance of bringing a fight to a draw. Higher level RPG combat would absolutely involve killing this kind of monster.

I can't tell you how you should write orcs, but I personally would have them be tribal with no real consistency in their culture or power level. I would write some orc tribes having close relations with player character races, others which go off and do their own things, and still others who actively attempt to displace other races to acquire their territory and resources. From this we can infer that because they must be able to oppose an organized military without themselves necessarily being the best at organization, they must at least have some individuals who are exceptionally powerful so they can force Pyrrhic victories. It's also likely that they reproduce much faster than humans.

Again, going off Tolkien, I would probably say that the orc race's defining feature should be excellent prosthetic limbs because they have so much experience handling individuals losing their natural limbs. Orc prosthetics can actually make people run faster or jump higher than they could before (not just restore lost function) or give them feats like they can't be disarmed. Orc healers also tend to put a standard interface socket on limbs, allowing you to switch limbs out or buy replacements from any orc merchant.

Quote from: Fheredin on April 29, 2025, 07:20:57 PMThe problem with Tolkienesque Orcs is that one of Tolkien's biggest mistakes revolves around Orcs; they basically ceased to exist after the fall of Sauron.

For the meticulous plotting detail for the rest of LotR, this feels utterly baffling. It is as if Tolkien didn't want to waste word count on managing the denoument for a whole race of antagonists, and so he drew a big editorial circle around them and deleted them. Consequently, we must also conclude we never really got to see Orc culture as its own thing; we only ever saw Sauron reflected.

In all the undecided hypothetical origins of orcs that Tolkien provided, none of them involved orcs without Sauron. (And Morgoth before him) They were either corrupted elves or men or animals or created from base materials like heat and slime. In any case, orcs in middle earth never had their own culture, and there is strong implications that without Sauron or Morgoth, they lost cohesion and motivation as a people and died out. A lot of them probably died in the fall of Sauron and the rest fled and probably lived out the rest of their lives as petty bandits.

I agree that there are hints in the text that Tolkien's orcs are intended to be more sophisticated than people generally imagine them as. I also agree that a hostile race which possesses some organization and a degree of industry is considerably more threatening than a gang of disorganized hunter-gatherers. It's not that a hunter-gatherer race can't be a serious threat, but it needs a little something extra. Warhammer's Orks with their fungal reproduction and theoretical immunity to fear or pain are a good example.

It's a really a question of purpose, though. If you want orcs to be a national or continental threat that requires an organized military response, then you want Tolkien's orcs, or Warhammer's or even (original) Warcraft's. But if you want orcs to be a low-level threat to trade routes and isolated settlements, D&D's approach is probably better.

Side note there, but Warcraft orcs really are extremely industrialized relative to other fantasy franchises. In Warcraft II they're already building oil rigs and deploying ships of the line.

Quote from: Fheredin on April 29, 2025, 07:20:57 PMConsequently, we must also conclude we never really got to see Orc culture as its own thing; we only ever saw Sauron reflected.

I think you could argue that Misty Mountain goblins in the Hobbit represent orc/goblin culture on it's own. Sauron is technically back and operating from Dol Goldur at that point, but IIRC all signs in the book point to the goblins being an independent state under the rulership of their own king. I've always found that portrayal interesting, because they aren't actively at war with the dwarves, and it's actually stated that some "wicked dwarves" have allied with goblins from time to time.

Quote from: ForgottenF on April 29, 2025, 09:06:44 PMI think you could argue that Misty Mountain goblins in the Hobbit represent orc/goblin culture on it's own. Sauron is technically back and operating from Dol Goldur at that point, but IIRC all signs in the book point to the goblins being an independent state under the rulership of their own king. I've always found that portrayal interesting, because they aren't actively at war with the dwarves, and it's actually stated that some "wicked dwarves" have allied with goblins from time to time.

   It could be that Tolkien never altered the Misty Mountain goblins to suit the Lord of the Rings for one reason or another, the only inhabit of those mountains that he seems to have changed from the 1937 (and pre-LotR printings) is Gollum. The 1937 version is different than the post Lord of the Rings version as bits were edited to tie the milieu and story together.

Quote from: Fheredin on April 29, 2025, 07:20:57 PMThe problem with Tolkienesque Orcs is that one of Tolkien's biggest mistakes revolves around Orcs; they basically ceased to exist after the fall of Sauron.

For the meticulous plotting detail for the rest of LotR, this feels utterly baffling. It is as if Tolkien didn't want to waste word count on managing the denoument for a whole race of antagonists, and so he drew a big editorial circle around them and deleted them. Consequently, we must also conclude we never really got to see Orc culture as its own thing; we only ever saw Sauron reflected.

The other thing to remember when talking about RPGs specifically is that RPGs tend to have much higher power scaling than LotR did. Yes, some of the characters in LotR were definitely epic heroes, but when they roll up against a Balrog, they have to simply flee, with only the Maiar in the party even standing a chance of bringing a fight to a draw. Higher level RPG combat would absolutely involve killing this kind of monster.

Orc culture is a non-issue in Tolkien's Context:

It is a known fact that Tolkien had a lot of conflicting ideas regarding the Orcs within his setting, both around their origin and metaphysics. he heavily prescribed to the idea  St. Augustine put forward. that Evil is merely the absence of good and thus has no generative quality of it's own.

Morgoth cannot create beings with souls or which possessed their own volition. which meant Tolkien had two choices. A. Morgoth could have fallen or corrupted servants with free will, but not ones of his own making. or B. The orcs are merely automatons and extensions of Morgoth's will.

This paired with the idea of Morgoth's Ring (The implication he has infected Arda with his nature in some way) tends to make me lean on the idea Orcs are just meat robots that happen to talk. we're already living in an age where it's proven the ability to speak and comprehend language doesn't really equate to them being alive or having a soul.

In such a sense I think the issue of "Orc Culture" is like asking if ants have culture. the only real individual in a hive is the queen, kill the queen and everything falls apart, thus once Sauron was taken off the table we didn't see anything of the orcs again, Sauron was the last being with enough metaphysical weight to actually control them, Saruman was too diminished at that point, and likewise Durin's Bane was dead, likewise all the Nazgûl.

On the subject of corrupted men and elves: I am much less in favor of that version, as I don't think it squares away all the problems that Tolkien had, but it does explain other things (such as some of the statements of orc breeding) given elven souls go to the halls of mandos when they die, and Orcs are just corrupted elves, it's quite possible that from an elven perspective that killing an Orc could be viewed as a form of spiritual liberation, freeing an elf soul from a corrupt prison of a body. though given there isn't anything but contempt between elves and orcs (with no trace of pity) I doubt this theory.

Answering the Posts question:

Pertaining to my setting Be Not Afraid. One of the active forces in the world are the Fairy Folk, Fae, or however you may call them. one concept I've been playing with is Orcs as breed soldier in the same way they are depicted as Lord of the Rings with Saruman, the Unseelie Court of the Faeries breeding a race of pig faced men who could withstand the bane of cold tron and interact with it.

but I'm not exactly committed to anything about the kingdom of Fairy or the middle worlders as of yet.

In D&D a HUGE problem is the gradual humanization of orcs.

They went from these beast headed foes - to tall goblins - to eventually essentially humans with tusks - to Mexicans, with tusks, of all things.

First, regarding Tolkien's Middle Earth:

Quote from: Fheredin on April 29, 2025, 07:20:57 PMThe problem with Tolkienesque Orcs is that one of Tolkien's biggest mistakes revolves around Orcs; they basically ceased to exist after the fall of Sauron.

For the meticulous plotting detail for the rest of LotR, this feels utterly baffling. It is as if Tolkien didn't want to waste word count on managing the denoument for a whole race of antagonists, and so he drew a big editorial circle around them and deleted them. Consequently, we must also conclude we never really got to see Orc culture as its own thing; we only ever saw Sauron reflected.

Unless I've missed it, Tolkien wrote very little about the broader events of the 4th Age, mostly just about the fate of individual characters. i.e. It wasn't just orcs. After the Battle of Morannon the orc army completely fell apart, but I don't think this necessarily meant that orcs were wiped out as a race.

Quote from: JRR TolkienThe Captains bowed their heads; and when they looked up again, behold! their enemies were flying and the power of Mordor was scattering like dust in the wind. As when death smites the swollen brooding thing that inhabits their crawling hill and holds them all in sway, ants will wander witless and purposeless and then feebly die, so the creatures of Sauron, orc or troll or beast spell-enslaved, ran hither and thither mindless; and some slew themselves, or cast themselves in pits, or fled wailing back to hide in holes and dark lightless places far from hope.

Those who ran mindless or those who hid might have later regrouped and recovered. Indeed, in _The Hobbit_, Tolkien suggested that orcs continued to cause problems for the world, saying:

Quote from: JRR TolkienIt is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them, and also not working with their own hands more than they could help; but in those days and those wild parts they had not advanced (as it is called) so far.

Is there some other part where Tolkien says that the orcs disappeared?

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Regarding D&D:

Quote from: Fheredin on April 29, 2025, 07:20:57 PMThe other thing to remember when talking about RPGs specifically is that RPGs tend to have much higher power scaling than LotR did. Yes, some of the characters in LotR were definitely epic heroes, but when they roll up against a Balrog, they have to simply flee, with only the Maiar in the party even standing a chance of bringing a fight to a draw. Higher level RPG combat would absolutely involve killing this kind of monster.

Again, there's nothing wrong with making orcs into pests - but I don't think it's inherent. If AD&D human and elf and dwarf adventurers are much more powerful than LotR adventurers, then why not also make orcs more powerful than LotR orcs? Not that one is required to, but that would seem natural. Warhammer and Warcraft made orcs into dangerous foes in their adaptations.

Quote from: Fheredin on April 29, 2025, 07:20:57 PMAgain, going off Tolkien, I would probably say that the orc race's defining feature should be excellent prosthetic limbs because they have so much experience handling individuals losing their natural limbs. Orc prosthetics can actually make people run faster or jump higher than they could before (not just restore lost function) or give them feats like they can't be disarmed. Orc healers also tend to put a standard interface socket on limbs, allowing you to switch limbs out or buy replacements from any orc merchant.

This feels like maybe an in-joke? I don't get it.

The weird thing about orcs is that they did not only lose their mojo after Tolkien, they got dumbed down too. Tolkien had several kinds of orcs. The "standard" ones (often called goblins) e.g. in the Misty Mountains, the larger and stronger Uruks, and even some kind of sniffer scout orcs.

Quote from: Trond on Today at 12:05:09 AMThe weird thing about orcs is that they did not only lose their mojo after Tolkien, they got dumbed down too. Tolkien had several kinds of orcs. The "standard" ones (often called goblins) e.g. in the Misty Mountains, the larger and stronger Uruks, and even some kind of sniffer scout orcs.

If they did get "dumbed down" or simplified in early D&D, they've gone way past Tolien in variety since (although nowhere near as much as the Baskin Robins flavors of elves). Even WFRP has several kinds of greenskins, from goblins/grots to orcs, black orcs, hobgoblins, and more. The Age of Sigmar setting introduces the Kruleboys, which are you sneaky "sniffer scout orcs" with a heaping helping of sadism.

OMG, so how are they gonna get their groove back?! Now I wanna see that breakup montage where Orcs'll pack up their ex-lover's shit in a garbage can outside and light it on fire like Angela Bassett from "How Stella Got Her Groove Back".

Anyhooo, I am pretty sure AD&D Red Coast have orcs play a predominant role. It's very Iberian peninsula & colonization with a weird radioactive dust effect constantly threatening everyone. And then there's the orcs of Mystara, pseudo-MesoAmerican culture pastiche atop, which have their own nation Gazetteer -- which has its own lava elevator to the Hollow World orcs! It's a bit silly, but also oodles of fun as an advanced civilization that fell into decline with trolls and ogres and stuff. Similarly there's Forgotten Realms with Thar by the Moonsea; again ancient fallen empire of trolls, ogres, and orcs. They work great as a raiding nomadic pressure to the plains-based city states and the nomadic human tribes based on horses a bit North. Then there's the FR orcs near Tethyr & Calimshan (Lands of Intrigue box set) where orcs were once being genocided by a mega-empire and later in reparations from that vicioius imperial collapse were integrated into the greater societal fabric, albeit with strain from their typical raiding nomadic culture. Then you have the unspoken ogre, troll, orc nations North of Goryo in the Ama(?) taiga peninsula of Kara-Tur, with whispered fallen empires of their own...

Yeah, not really seeing orcs as being dismissable threats so much because they have large raiding party numbers and they can end up with orc and half-orc leveled NPCs in random encounters. But sure, I guess they can be seen as marginalized. It's like any sentient species in these games, it depends if you let them have analogous tools as the PCs with alien motivations and tweaks to maintain a sense of mystery. Once you play *anything* with the ability to "level-up" and use the same gear and tactics of fellow sentients with opposable thumbs of a sort then it's game on! Quickly-maturing, rapid-breeders versus long-lived slow-maturing, slow-breeders will always be a friction due to the life strategy -- hence why Humans are critical in the elf, dwarf, human, half-X, gnome, halfling consortium. Humans being larger in sized, rapid in maturation, and quick to breed makes them the bulwark against the horde creatures of ogre, orc, hobgoblin, goblin, etc.