Quote from: jhkim on Today at 02:41:35 AM

Quote from: SHARK on May 05, 2025, 10:37:45 PMIt was not unheard of with campaigns back in the day where some individual Orc, a small group, or even a tribe, were of some Non-Evil alignment. That differed from the rules, though also the rules encouraged the DM to be creative and make the game their own, so there was always room in a campaign for weird exceptions from the norm. That kind of dynamic has always been an aspect of the D&D game, from the earliest years.

Right.

There's this idea that having non-evil orcs in one's game is a weakening of the true original vision - only done by woke liberals.

Greetings!

Well, Jhkim, Context is critically important. Over the recent 10 to 15 years, it has always been Woke Liberals that have been promoting and pushing this kind of stuff. "Re-imagining" and "Reinterpreting" everything from campaign assumptions, Character Classes, Alignment, and Monsters, all from a very Woke ideological framework. Colonialism, Misogyny, Imperialism, Racism, and on and on. All with a desire to not merely discuss the events and such of their own campaigns, but demand and lecture everyone else on why they need to embrace these kinds of changes to their own campaigns as well. Always demanding and promoting a Woke interpretation of how everyone should be playing D&D.

THAT SPECIFIC IDEOLOGICAL TREND OF PROMOTING AND DEMANDING CONFORMITY TO WOKE PHILOSOPHY is what normal gamers have been reacting towards. Why? Because it isn't a matter of just a few jackass Woke Liberals encountered at some Convention game--it is that normal gamers encounter these people at every turn--at game conventions, online forums, game store game clubs, YouTube videos, YouTube Streams, and within editorial sections of various rulebooks and game modules.

Thus, normal gamers are absolutely sick, tired, and angry at hearing Woke BS lectured to them at every turn, so you get a harsh reaction towards anything that looks like Woke Liberals are promoting and demanding.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: bat on Today at 11:12:46 AMSHARK!, I know your comment was aimed at jhkim, yet I find myself sometimes surprised by the gonzo  elements that players bring in and if they roll well, I run with it. A very memorable Labyrinth Lord game years ago had an extra player, the wife of a regular who had never played an rpg before, yet was curious. She wanted to play a 'cook'. I figured this was a one off for her and took a thief and gave the class culinary skills. Deep in the dungeon they were  ambushed by a small warband of lizardmen and she offered them some hot chicken soup (the party was settling to rest) and she rolled very well and acted out offering them soup. The shaman of the lizardmen was able to communicate and they had allies/bodyguards as long as good food was coming their way.

Greetings!

Bat! That is hilarious and brilliant! *Laughing* That kind of creative and intuitive play is always so awesome! I love that! She sounds like she was a very nice and fun player.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jhkim on Today at 02:41:35 AMI don't have a problem with evil orcs, but I also don't have a problem with non-evil orcs like Quij. It's up to the DM. There can and should be different kinds of orcs in different games and campaigns.

Minor point, but Quij wasn't non-evil as Robilar was evil and had many orc minions.  Even the link provided earlier has Quij's alignment as LE. (That brings an entirely different conversation on if orcs are LE or CE)

I was actually thinking about this the other day reading through OD&D. WOTC should create a 5.5e setting that utilizes the default assumptions of the edition in a way Eberron did for 3e. (Queue "Evil cannot create, it can only pervert" here) As it does seem very to have a very different vibe with the removal of default evil humanoids.

Looking only at OD&D

There's very little information on other humanoids outside of leadership. It's interesting to see how the various humanoids 'level up' with their leaders.
goblins - king is equivalent to hobgoblin
hobgoblins - as an ogre
gnolls - as a troll

Orcs on the other hand are given a lot of information. It mentions inter-tribal hostility as well as them living in both caves and villages. Half the time you'll run into an orc wagon train that's run by a high level fighter or magic-user. Their leaders will be actual dragons, ogres, or trolls, not 'fight as'.

I'm not sure in our gaming if I -ever- ran into an orc wagon train. Normally they were raiding one we were protecting.

They are definitely treated differently than all the other humanoids.

Default D&D is clearly not a Tolkienesque setting that alludes to a Christian worldview. I suppose I don't understand why in a setting where you have distinctly evil deities creating worshippers, why its such a terrible thing to say they are locked in to their alignment/behavior and therefore irredeemable?

Regarding Quij the orc... I think I didn't write clearly earlier. It's not so much his listed alignment that's I meant, as opposed to PC-to-orc relations. Having a PC with a poncho-wearing orc sidekick whom he trusts seems contrary to the general vibe of "orcs are filthy enemies to all humanity who need to be wiped out".

Again, nothing wrong with games where orcs always need to strictly be killed - but it's clearly not the only old-school way.

Quote from: Tristan on Today at 12:57:58 PMLooking only at OD&D
...
Orcs on the other hand are given a lot of information. It mentions inter-tribal hostility as well as them living in both caves and villages. Half the time you'll run into an orc wagon train that's run by a high level fighter or magic-user. Their leaders will be actual dragons, ogres, or trolls, not 'fight as'.

I'm not sure in our gaming if I -ever- ran into an orc wagon train. Normally they were raiding one we were protecting.

They are definitely treated differently than all the other humanoids.

Default D&D is clearly not a Tolkienesque setting that alludes to a Christian worldview. I suppose I don't understand why in a setting where you have distinctly evil deities creating worshippers, why its such a terrible thing to say they are locked in to their alignment/behavior and therefore irredeemable?

I think the posters who are talking about redemption are talking about Tolkien orcs, not OD&D or AD&D orcs.

OD&D orcs have more information than some other OD&D monsters that are just stats, but they're still not described much compared to later editions or other games. Under the alignment table, they are listed under both the Neutral column and the Chaotic column. They live in caves or villages, as you say, and evidently have a lot of wagon trains. They are illustrated as this:



I'm not sure how that comes together as far as a full picture of what they are like. What are they typically carrying in those wagon trains? Where are they typically going from and to?

For what it's worth, I never saw orc wagon trains either. I think DMs mostly ignored most of this and pictured orcs as in Tolkien, or alternately made up their own ideas about what orcs are like.

I just find it weird that Gygax had an orc in a poncho, and I wonder if it was the OG inspiration for the Mexican orcs of today.

Quote from: jhkim on Today at 02:27:27 PMRegarding Quij the orc... I think I didn't write clearly earlier. It's not so much his listed alignment that's I meant, as opposed to PC-to-orc relations. Having a PC with a poncho-wearing orc sidekick whom he trusts seems contrary to the general vibe of "orcs are filthy enemies to all humanity who need to be wiped out".

Again, nothing wrong with games where orcs always need to strictly be killed - but it's clearly not the only old-school way.

I think the posters who are talking about redemption are talking about Tolkien orcs, not OD&D or AD&D orcs.

OD&D orcs have more information than some other OD&D monsters that are just stats, but they're still not described much compared to later editions or other games. Under the alignment table, they are listed under both the Neutral column and the Chaotic column. They live in caves or villages, as you say, and evidently have a lot of wagon trains. They are illustrated as this:



I'm not sure how that comes together as far as a full picture of what they are like. What are they typically carrying in those wagon trains? Where are they typically going from and to?

For what it's worth, I never saw orc wagon trains either. I think DMs mostly ignored most of this and pictured orcs as in Tolkien, or alternately made up their own ideas about what orcs are like.

They were carrying 200-1200 GP per wagon. 1-8 wagons with an additional 10 orcs per wagon plus a 7-9th level fighter or 9-11th level wizard

It isn't just the Tolkien orcs that people discuss this with, however. I have seen many posts at various places about how uncomfortable people are with the idea of "purely evil races" because they somehow equate it to some type of real world human. This is the thought that permeates the 2024 edition.

My comment is mainly to address that thought process, as the Tolkienesque thought process is still involved.

As far as Quij goes, I've done some looking. From Rob's accounts he's a normal orc just intensely loyal to Robilar. Robilar used orcs because they were cheaper than humans to pay for troop wise, and upkeep costs were strictly enforced.

"Did Gary really elevate Quij to "hero status" (4th level) after this encounter?"
Yes, he was elevated by EGG due to the circumstances of him slaying the troll single-handedly, which of course "meant" that he was an exceptional orc.
"What kind of stats did Quij end up with?"
4th level orc with 12 hp and chain armor and shield and sword, nothing spectacular for OD&D."

I concur that orcs are shown in Monsters & Treasure as both Neutral and Chaotic, but by the time of the Greyhawk supplement, they are Chaotic Evil on that chart.

It seems a very narrow window that they were neutral at all.

Nearly all humanoids could be friendly if the reaction roll went well. That doesn't meant they won't stab you in the back at soon as it makes sense to.