Death cult, lots of references to blood, keeps coming back, wants people to "let him in".
I can see a game where that is a secret truth. I can also see people going absolutely crazy just mentioning the idea.
Could it Ever be done? Is there a group of people that would actually give it a go?
Throw these questions out to your group in a Session 0. It's the only way to know if it will matter to the people you're going to play with.
As for publishing something like this, it might go fine for the edgy sorts that Vampire-type games attract. Is it really any more ridiculous than OP's "God-Machine" with angels and demons being like Agents from the Matrix (rogue Agents in the case of demons)?
Lots and lots, or none at all -- just like burrahobbits.
On the lots and lots side, it could cause a major moral panic.
On the none at all side, as a High Church Christian, I'm curious, what does this do to Transubstantiation? Are all of the folks who believe they are literally drinking Jesus' blood and eating His flesh during communion Ghouls? Is that the real secret to eternal life?
:P
I think it would cause a shitload of trouble. Of course you may find a group that has no issue with it, I think you could find a group that enjoys detailed sexual assault scenes, overtly racist themes and ideas and scenes playing out, torture and dismemberment scenes, etc.
I am not saying the mere idea compares to the other things, but in a whole lot of people's minds, it will be on par with the most utterly offensive thing you could think of. Call me a prude, but though I like to keep themes of games adult and for people with critical thought, I dont see a real payoff in fun or game experience in trying to come up with one of the most offensive things to some people I could imagine.
If your plan is to present this to a group of people you know well, I guess I am with HappyDaze, and present the idea before running with the game and see where they stand. As a published thing, well, good luck. I personally would not want to see if I could push a few zealot christians to carry out a crusade (and I mean the middle ages kind, not the jack chick kind).
Quote from: oggsmash on April 04, 2021, 12:26:13 AM
I think it would cause a shitload of trouble. Of course you may find a group that has no issue with it, I think you could find a group that enjoys detailed sexual assault scenes, overtly racist themes and ideas and scenes playing out, torture and dismemberment scenes, etc.
I am not saying the mere idea compares to the other things, but in a whole lot of people's minds, it will be on par with the most utterly offensive thing you could think of. Call me a prude, but though I like to keep themes of games adult and for people with critical thought, I dont see a real payoff in fun or game experience in trying to come up with one of the most offensive things to some people I could imagine.
If your plan is to present this to a group of people you know well, I guess I am with HappyDaze, and present the idea before running with the game and see where they stand. As a published thing, well, good luck. I personally would not want to see if I could push a few zealot christians to carry out a crusade (and I mean the middle ages kind, not the jack chick kind).
If you play it off as parody, like South Park does with their Jesus stuff, you might get a pass. Or maybe not.
So Stunning & Brave.
Quote from: S'mon on April 04, 2021, 02:30:40 AM
So Stunning & Brave.
Because when he asks:
"How Much Trouble Would Playing Jesus As A Vampire Cause?"He knows he will not be met with immediate threats of violence for suggesting it.
Those intolerant and bigoted Christians seem to be a bunch of big softies.
Now if he had rephrased his question to:
"How Much Trouble Would Playing Muhammed As A Vampire Cause?"And posted his question here:
https://www.gawaher.com/forum/183-islamic-western-dialogue/
That would be some stunning and brave shit.
It's not in itself any more offensive an idea than a game like The Last Exodus. Which is not to say it wouldn't be hugely offensive, at least to people like me who take their Christian faith at least semi-seriously, but that's a small enough proportion of the gaming hobby in the West that there might be an audience.
A bigger strike against the idea is that I don't see a lot of repeat gameplay value in it once the shock quotient wears off, not without a lot of drastically reinventing the world background. Exactly how would it enter a game, and how would the ramifications of this discovery affect gameplay?
I don't think it's possible to do this without coming across as either 12 years old or just a massive edgelord, but if you're cool with that, . . . *shrugs*
Quote from: Greentongue on April 03, 2021, 08:50:09 PM
Death cult, lots of references to blood, keeps coming back, wants people to "let him in".
I can see a game where that is a secret truth. I can also see people going absolutely crazy just mentioning the idea.
Could it Ever be done? Is there a group of people that would actually give it a go?
Could it Ever be done? Yeah, dumber ideas have become games.
Is there a group of people that would actually give it a go? Yeah, idiots abound in this world of ours.
Why am I so negative? Because the idea is boring. Edgelord game design for shock value becomes nothing but schlock.
It could work in a parallel World, or maybe as a part of the "True Reality" in Kult (but I don't know Kult enough to judge if it could work in that setting).
Regarding the Transubstantiation, that's something that bothered me since I went to Sunday School when I was a kid. Over and over we were told that it must be intended in the most literal way. That's a basic cannibalistic rite not even "hidden in plain sight" - but literally in plain sight.
Greetings!
The idea is terrible and very offensive. Advertising and promoting such a game depicting such, as Jaeger mentioned, is like a neon sign invitation to being beaten to death with a lead pipe. Considering that in our world right now, people have been attacked, beaten and or killed for far less.
Fast food workers not bringing food fast enough and being assaulted or killed;
Store employees asking someone politely to wear a mask and being assaulted and beaten;
Innocent people sitting outside choosing not to wear a mask, and having women come up to them and attack them and throw hot coffee in their face;
Uber drivers picking someone up for a ride and being tazered to death.
So, promoting a "game" depicting Jesus as a vampire...just no. I don't think such a "game" would be a good idea and would recommend against it very strongly.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on April 04, 2021, 06:56:59 AM
Greetings!
The idea is terrible and very offensive. Advertising and promoting such a game depicting such, as Jaeger mentioned, is like a neon sign invitation to being beaten to death with a lead pipe. Considering that in our world right now, people have been attacked, beaten and or killed for far less.
Fast food workers not bringing food fast enough and being assaulted or killed;
Store employees asking someone politely to wear a mask and being assaulted and beaten;
Innocent people sitting outside choosing not to wear a mask, and having women come up to them and attack them and throw hot coffee in their face;
Uber drivers picking someone up for a ride and being tazered to death.
So, promoting a "game" depicting Jesus as a vampire...just no. I don't think such a "game" would be a good idea and would recommend against it very strongly.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I agree, it's really important that we avoid anything that might offend anyone. We must make sure everything is bland and inoffensive, or we deserve all the mostly peaceful bone-breaking that comes our way. Because violence isn't real violence, it's words that are the real violence. Censorship is the only way to make the spaces we exist in safe and secure!
None from my part ! If everyone at the game table is cool with it, why not ?
Quote from: Pat on April 04, 2021, 07:17:39 AM
Quote from: SHARK on April 04, 2021, 06:56:59 AM
Greetings!
The idea is terrible and very offensive. Advertising and promoting such a game depicting such, as Jaeger mentioned, is like a neon sign invitation to being beaten to death with a lead pipe. Considering that in our world right now, people have been attacked, beaten and or killed for far less.
Fast food workers not bringing food fast enough and being assaulted or killed;
Store employees asking someone politely to wear a mask and being assaulted and beaten;
Innocent people sitting outside choosing not to wear a mask, and having women come up to them and attack them and throw hot coffee in their face;
Uber drivers picking someone up for a ride and being tazered to death.
So, promoting a "game" depicting Jesus as a vampire...just no. I don't think such a "game" would be a good idea and would recommend against it very strongly.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I agree, it's really important that we avoid anything that might offend anyone. We must make sure everything is bland and inoffensive, or we deserve all the mostly peaceful bone-breaking that comes our way. Because violence isn't real violence, it's words that are the real violence. Censorship is the only way to make the spaces we exist in safe and secure!
Greetings!
*Laughing* "we deserve all the mostly peaceful bone-breaking that comes our way." ;D
Good stuff, Pat. ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Pat on April 04, 2021, 07:17:39 AM
Quote from: SHARK on April 04, 2021, 06:56:59 AM
Greetings!
The idea is terrible and very offensive. Advertising and promoting such a game depicting such, as Jaeger mentioned, is like a neon sign invitation to being beaten to death with a lead pipe. Considering that in our world right now, people have been attacked, beaten and or killed for far less.
Fast food workers not bringing food fast enough and being assaulted or killed;
Store employees asking someone politely to wear a mask and being assaulted and beaten;
Innocent people sitting outside choosing not to wear a mask, and having women come up to them and attack them and throw hot coffee in their face;
Uber drivers picking someone up for a ride and being tazered to death.
So, promoting a "game" depicting Jesus as a vampire...just no. I don't think such a "game" would be a good idea and would recommend against it very strongly.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I agree, it's really important that we avoid anything that might offend anyone. We must make sure everything is bland and inoffensive, or we deserve all the mostly peaceful bone-breaking that comes our way. Because violence isn't real violence, it's words that are the real violence. Censorship is the only way to make the spaces we exist in safe and secure!
Well, I understand your point, and I think Shark is over the top, but I censor myself ALL THE TIME. As a matter of fact any and every even close to sensible person does, because it is a form of civility. I am not for attempting to do the absolutely most provoking and offensive thing possible. Many places do have what are called "fighting words", meaning if you intentionally provoke someone with your offensive words, and get your ass kicked, the police can consider it personal combat or an affray (misdemeanor) instead of an assault. I am not certain such a premise as the OP put forth would rise to that, but I also do not intend to present games where rape is a main theme, or genocide, or serial torture and murder. Because all of those to certain people are on the same ground.
Lots of people worry about things being too bland, and I get that, but though I favor spicy food alot, there is such a thing as way too spicy. I find the people who THINK they want super spicy are often the ones I see sweating bullets and sending the order back after a couple bites.
Quote from: Greentongue on April 03, 2021, 08:50:09 PM
Death cult, lots of references to blood, keeps coming back, wants people to "let him in".
I can see a game where that is a secret truth. I can also see people going absolutely crazy just mentioning the idea.
Could it Ever be done? Is there a group of people that would actually give it a go?
I'd probably allow it, but I'm not part of your gaming group. Just read the room.
Well, I put my brain on the idea, but - even if we ignore how gratuitously offensive it is (*) - I simply can't find a scenario where it works.
The only use I can see for such an idea is the final revelation of an exceptionally dark version of "The DaVinci Code", or something like that.
(*) Because, do not let SJWs confuse you: some things do cross a line.
Is there a group out there that would go for it? Sure, I imagine you could dig up a table full of fedora tippers who would find it great fun.
There's all manner of cringe inducing shit that gets made. Just don't get all up in arms when people call you out on your bullshit.
Gimmick characters tend to meet a really horrible and embarrassing fate. But you do you.
To add to my earlier drive-by, "Jesus is a Vampire, LOL suckers!" has all of the problems everyone else mentioned.
On the other hand, in a system like Vampire: the Masquerade where True Faith is a thing, the slow reveal that Jesus' blood in a communion service actually is a source of revitalization or even redemption for vampires (rather than the traditional the host or cup will burn or repel a vampire just like a cross) was something that I actually played with back when I was in my twenties. I actually have a couple of war stories about that, involving Holy Week, a priest, and a Tremere (both with True Faith).
Quote from: ScytheSong on April 04, 2021, 11:57:25 AM
To add to my earlier drive-by, "Jesus is a Vampire, LOL suckers!" has all of the problems everyone else mentioned.
On the other hand, in a system like Vampire: the Masquerade where True Faith is a thing, the slow reveal that Jesus' blood in a communion service actually is a source of revitalization or even redemption for vampires (rather than the traditional the host or cup will burn or repel a vampire just like a cross) was something that I actually played with back when I was in my twenties. I actually have a couple of war stories about that, involving Holy Week, a priest, and a Tremere (both with True Faith).
Hmmm... Maybe it's me but your storyline is unclear. If you mean that you had "Christian" vampires who, instead of wine, used literal blood, or some ritual that turns wine into blood, then it works - but as a workaround. I still can't see how the original Jesus could have been a oWoD vampire, though. Even unrecognised or "heretical" Chronicles from the era have him walking and preaching in full sunlight, for example.
https://www.scribd.com/document/82038804/The-Heresy-An-Alternate-Cosmology-for-Vampire-the-Masquerade
Quote from: Greentongue on April 03, 2021, 08:50:09 PM
Death cult, lots of references to blood, keeps coming back, wants people to "let him in".
Speaking as someone who is a pretty strong and active Chrstian; your presentation of Christianity is so radically off from reality I can't even be offended; just embarrassed for you that your idea sounds like the sort of thing a 12 year old boy would think is hilarious and edgy... like drawing dicks and boobies on pictures.
Christianity is such a death cult that it condemns both murder and suicide and preaches eternal life where one can never die; also heals the sick and raises the dead. So basically a Life cult... a garden, not a grave.
Blood has been seen as the source of life since the dawn of history (you try living without it) which is why vampires steal it from the living to sustain themselves. Jesus instead gives his blood away...so again, opposite land from a vampire.
And references to blood are just a tiny part; how about living (i.e. flowing) water, to being the light of the world and associated with daytime (and most of his recorded appearances post resurrection were during the day) and with purifying fire. He doesn't fear the cross for it was the means by which he destroyed the power of death. Basically he claims to embody all the things that are traditionally banes of vampires.
Likewise, Jesus didn't keep coming back; he rose once and then ascended to Heaven. Post resurrection apparitions are almost invariably Mary, other saints or angels.
Also it's not "let me in" (seriously, I defy you to find that anywhere in the Bible), it's "come and follow me." Also, post-resurrection Jesus regularly appeared in locked rooms and other places he wasn't invited (because it all belongs to Him as King of the Universe anyway).
So, basically, you have to so misdefine Christianity to try and make it fit vampirism that it will always be taken asthe ravings of an ignoramous who can't even bother to do proper research in their desperate bid for attention seeking.
Also, just reconfirming the above makes it even more obvious that Jesus and vampires are basically exact opposites and so the vampire is far better represented in a setting as an Antichrist figure.
Try harder little edgelord. Right now your average SJW wackadoodle presents more offensive attacks on the Church. You're just that twelve year old who thinks he's so cool scribbling cartoon dicks onto pictures with a sharpie.
Quote from: ReckallHmmm... Maybe it's me but your storyline is unclear.
Actually, it's a really old bit of VtM lore... if a Catholic Priest with True Faith performs the Mass then a vampire can drink the communion wine (provided they make their conscience check to avoid it scalding them like liquid sunlight) to regain blood points because they are consuming the actual blood of Christ (if they succeeded on the test they also gained a dot of True Faith and Prey Exclusion: Catholic Priests).
There was even a monastic order of vampires I believe who were sustained entirely on the Blood of Christ they consumed at a nightly midnight Mass. It later got retconned out as making things "too easy" to avoid being monsters (and it made the Catholic Church into unabashed good guys when their early progressive inclinations wanted the Inquisition as portrayed by the notoriously anti-Catholic Jack Chick).
Quote from: Reckall on April 04, 2021, 10:58:06 AM
Well, I put my brain on the idea, but - even if we ignore how gratuitously offensive it is (*) - I simply can't find a scenario where it works.
The only use I can see for such an idea is the final revelation of an exceptionally dark version of "The DaVinci Code", or something like that.
(*) Because, do not let SJWs confuse you: some things do cross a line.
IF I was to do it, yeah, the END REVEAL would be where. An attempt for, "Didn't see that coming". Though if done the way I would think was right, they would see it coming, at the END.
Quote from: Reckall on April 04, 2021, 12:38:28 PM
Hmmm... Maybe it's me but your storyline is unclear. If you mean that you had "Christian" vampires who, instead of wine, used literal blood, or some ritual that turns wine into blood, then it works - but as a workaround. I still can't see how the original Jesus could have been a oWoD vampire, though. Even unrecognised or "heretical" Chronicles from the era have him walking and preaching in full sunlight, for example.
There are a lot of redacted texts and revisionism so, finding those would be the point of the game.
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 04, 2021, 01:33:53 PM
Quote from: ReckallHmmm... Maybe it's me but your storyline is unclear.
Actually, it's a really old bit of VtM lore... if a Catholic Priest with True Faith performs the Mass then a vampire can drink the communion wine (provided they make their conscience check to avoid it scalding them like liquid sunlight)
Er... I don't see how a oWoD Vampire can do a "conscience check" (except maybe if you follow a very narrow - and boring - path; is that even possible in the setting?) Dabbling in magic would be grounds enough to end up cremated.
The best I can imagine was for Jesus to be aware of Vampires and thus creating a way for them to be Saved too. These testimonies then survived in secret texts as part of the Masquerade. Dunno... It could be an interesting concept for some.
Honestly, that I'm a Vampire, another Vampire rings my doorbell, gives me some pamphlets and tells me "Are you interested in being saved by Jesus?" is a very funny image... ;D
Apparently, the OP is not the only one thinking about this......
(https://scontent-atl3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/168934096_470537000851035_122619796972230946_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=2CIcEuDK3EEAX-tUnNj&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-2.xx&oh=2ab7837927e180d29ae9164bc7bb7e9f&oe=608FC96C)
Quote from: Greentongue on April 03, 2021, 08:50:09 PM
Death cult, lots of references to blood, keeps coming back, wants people to "let him in".
I can see a game where that is a secret truth. I can also see people going absolutely crazy just mentioning the idea.
Could it Ever be done? Is there a group of people that would actually give it a go?
The DM says:
Quote from: Reckall on April 04, 2021, 03:17:01 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 04, 2021, 01:33:53 PM
Quote from: ReckallHmmm... Maybe it's me but your storyline is unclear.
Actually, it's a really old bit of VtM lore... if a Catholic Priest with True Faith performs the Mass then a vampire can drink the communion wine (provided they make their conscience check to avoid it scalding them like liquid sunlight)
Er... I don't see how a oWoD Vampire can do a "conscience check" (except maybe if you follow a very narrow - and boring - path; is that even possible in the setting?) Dabbling in magic would be grounds enough to end up cremated.
oWoD Vampire literally has a stat called Conscience which, along with Self-Control and Courage, define your ability to resist the influence of The Beast upon you.
The normal role for conscience checks is if you perform an evil act to see if you actually feel remorse for it or just say "fuck it" and take one step closer to being nothing more than a monster.
In this case, they used the conscience stat as basically a "are you still open enough to the saving grace of God to receive the blood of God as spiritual nourishment or do you fall short and instead get burned by the holy power of God contained within?"
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 04, 2021, 05:13:48 PM
Quote from: Reckall on April 04, 2021, 03:17:01 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 04, 2021, 01:33:53 PM
Quote from: ReckallHmmm... Maybe it's me but your storyline is unclear.
Actually, it's a really old bit of VtM lore... if a Catholic Priest with True Faith performs the Mass then a vampire can drink the communion wine (provided they make their conscience check to avoid it scalding them like liquid sunlight)
Er... I don't see how a oWoD Vampire can do a "conscience check" (except maybe if you follow a very narrow - and boring - path; is that even possible in the setting?) Dabbling in magic would be grounds enough to end up cremated.
oWoD Vampire literally has a stat called Conscience which, along with Self-Control and Courage, define your ability to resist the influence of The Beast upon you.
The normal role for conscience checks is if you perform an evil act to see if you actually feel remorse for it or just say "fuck it" and take one step closer to being nothing more than a monster.
In this case, they used the conscience stat as basically a "are you still open enough to the saving grace of God to receive the blood of God as spiritual nourishment or do you fall short and instead get burned by the holy power of God contained within?"
It's very weirdly designed. The more conscience points you have, the easier it is to get away with horrific acts without dinging your humanity meter. You'd think it would work the opposite or something.
A realistic depiction of how guilt affects you would work completely differently. You would suffer PTSD as a result of guilt, not the absence of guilt.
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 04, 2021, 05:13:48 PM
Quote from: Reckall on April 04, 2021, 03:17:01 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 04, 2021, 01:33:53 PM
Quote from: ReckallHmmm... Maybe it's me but your storyline is unclear.
Actually, it's a really old bit of VtM lore... if a Catholic Priest with True Faith performs the Mass then a vampire can drink the communion wine (provided they make their conscience check to avoid it scalding them like liquid sunlight)
Er... I don't see how a oWoD Vampire can do a "conscience check" (except maybe if you follow a very narrow - and boring - path; is that even possible in the setting?) Dabbling in magic would be grounds enough to end up cremated.
oWoD Vampire literally has a stat called Conscience which, along with Self-Control and Courage, define your ability to resist the influence of The Beast upon you.
No, I can dig that. My problem is that a Vampire Conscience =/= Christian Conscience. Strong homoeroticism freely lived, for example, would pass a Vampire "Conscience Check" and still be a big no-no for Christian Conscience.
Quote from: Greentongue on April 03, 2021, 08:50:09 PM
Death cult, lots of references to blood, keeps coming back, wants people to "let him in".
I can see a game where that is a secret truth. I can also see people going absolutely crazy just mentioning the idea.
Could it Ever be done? Is there a group of people that would actually give it a go?
If MY group ever sees this post they'll never stop bothering me to play this as a chronicle in Vampire the Masquerade. We absolutely don't care about the implications - we are 50% atheists, 25% agnostics and 25% rare-breed Catholics who can take a joke and separate real life from gaming (yeah, I know, these are rare). I also remember the Malkavian clanbook mentioning that the biggest prank they ever did was a simple body theft in the Middle East around the time of the Emperor Tiberius.
Quote from: Greentongue on April 03, 2021, 08:50:09 PM
Death cult, lots of references to blood, keeps coming back, wants people to "let him in".
I can see a game where that is a secret truth. I can also see people going absolutely crazy just mentioning the idea.
Could it Ever be done? Is there a group of people that would actually give it a go?
Im pretty sure exactly this has been done either in some novel or a game. Either directly or in reference to as an example. One of the 2000 era Dracula movies had Dracula being actually a cursed Judas.
I mean really, theres Hermaphrodite Alien Jesus and Wile E Coyote Jesus so Vampire Jesus makes as much sense. Fits right in with Alien Lizard Elvis Barney...
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 04, 2021, 05:58:28 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 04, 2021, 05:13:48 PM
Quote from: Reckall on April 04, 2021, 03:17:01 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 04, 2021, 01:33:53 PM
Quote from: ReckallHmmm... Maybe it's me but your storyline is unclear.
Actually, it's a really old bit of VtM lore... if a Catholic Priest with True Faith performs the Mass then a vampire can drink the communion wine (provided they make their conscience check to avoid it scalding them like liquid sunlight)
Er... I don't see how a oWoD Vampire can do a "conscience check" (except maybe if you follow a very narrow - and boring - path; is that even possible in the setting?) Dabbling in magic would be grounds enough to end up cremated.
oWoD Vampire literally has a stat called Conscience which, along with Self-Control and Courage, define your ability to resist the influence of The Beast upon you.
The normal role for conscience checks is if you perform an evil act to see if you actually feel remorse for it or just say "fuck it" and take one step closer to being nothing more than a monster.
In this case, they used the conscience stat as basically a "are you still open enough to the saving grace of God to receive the blood of God as spiritual nourishment or do you fall short and instead get burned by the holy power of God contained within?"
It's very weirdly designed. The more conscience points you have, the easier it is to get away with horrific acts without dinging your humanity meter. You'd think it would work the opposite or something.
A realistic depiction of how guilt affects you would work completely differently. You would suffer PTSD as a result of guilt, not the absence of guilt.
They chose a poor name for the trait. What it represents is your ability to process/rationalize what you've done and move past it. Resilience is the more popular term for such today (at least IRL, if not necessarily in games).
Jesus as a Vampire isn't very original. The parallels are pretty obvious.
Quote from: HappyDaze on April 04, 2021, 07:09:06 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 04, 2021, 05:58:28 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 04, 2021, 05:13:48 PM
Quote from: Reckall on April 04, 2021, 03:17:01 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 04, 2021, 01:33:53 PM
Quote from: ReckallHmmm... Maybe it's me but your storyline is unclear.
Actually, it's a really old bit of VtM lore... if a Catholic Priest with True Faith performs the Mass then a vampire can drink the communion wine (provided they make their conscience check to avoid it scalding them like liquid sunlight)
Er... I don't see how a oWoD Vampire can do a "conscience check" (except maybe if you follow a very narrow - and boring - path; is that even possible in the setting?) Dabbling in magic would be grounds enough to end up cremated.
oWoD Vampire literally has a stat called Conscience which, along with Self-Control and Courage, define your ability to resist the influence of The Beast upon you.
The normal role for conscience checks is if you perform an evil act to see if you actually feel remorse for it or just say "fuck it" and take one step closer to being nothing more than a monster.
In this case, they used the conscience stat as basically a "are you still open enough to the saving grace of God to receive the blood of God as spiritual nourishment or do you fall short and instead get burned by the holy power of God contained within?"
It's very weirdly designed. The more conscience points you have, the easier it is to get away with horrific acts without dinging your humanity meter. You'd think it would work the opposite or something.
A realistic depiction of how guilt affects you would work completely differently. You would suffer PTSD as a result of guilt, not the absence of guilt.
They chose a poor name for the trait. What it represents is your ability to process/rationalize what you've done and move past it. Resilience is the more popular term for such today (at least IRL, if not necessarily in games).
That still doesn't reflect a realistic human psychology. The kind of person who can repeatedly commit horrific atrocities without any psychological trauma is a clinical sociopath and/or a religious fanatic who doesn't see their victims as human beings, not resilient. If you
don't rationalize really awful shit you did, then that means you
have a conscience. Not the opposite.
All the various karma meters in WW games have worked like this and it doesn't reflect real human psychology. I despise those mechanics.
Just seems like a kind of boring concept on its face, a real-preaching-to-the-edgelord-choir thing. You'd probably have to develop it out with a lot more nuance than just the elevator pitch to make it worthwhile.
Quote from: GeekEclectic on April 04, 2021, 03:32:03 AM
I don't think it's possible to do this without coming across as either 12 years old or just a massive edgelord, but if you're cool with that, . . . *shrugs*
Pretty much. I mean, I'm Jewish and I
still think it's offensive, like that idiot's "artwork"
Piss Christ.
Appropriate people's cultures, don't try to insult them just to be edgy.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 04, 2021, 09:06:26 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on April 04, 2021, 07:09:06 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 04, 2021, 05:58:28 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 04, 2021, 05:13:48 PM
Quote from: Reckall on April 04, 2021, 03:17:01 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 04, 2021, 01:33:53 PM
Quote from: ReckallHmmm... Maybe it's me but your storyline is unclear.
Actually, it's a really old bit of VtM lore... if a Catholic Priest with True Faith performs the Mass then a vampire can drink the communion wine (provided they make their conscience check to avoid it scalding them like liquid sunlight)
Er... I don't see how a oWoD Vampire can do a "conscience check" (except maybe if you follow a very narrow - and boring - path; is that even possible in the setting?) Dabbling in magic would be grounds enough to end up cremated.
oWoD Vampire literally has a stat called Conscience which, along with Self-Control and Courage, define your ability to resist the influence of The Beast upon you.
The normal role for conscience checks is if you perform an evil act to see if you actually feel remorse for it or just say "fuck it" and take one step closer to being nothing more than a monster.
In this case, they used the conscience stat as basically a "are you still open enough to the saving grace of God to receive the blood of God as spiritual nourishment or do you fall short and instead get burned by the holy power of God contained within?"
It's very weirdly designed. The more conscience points you have, the easier it is to get away with horrific acts without dinging your humanity meter. You'd think it would work the opposite or something.
A realistic depiction of how guilt affects you would work completely differently. You would suffer PTSD as a result of guilt, not the absence of guilt.
They chose a poor name for the trait. What it represents is your ability to process/rationalize what you've done and move past it. Resilience is the more popular term for such today (at least IRL, if not necessarily in games).
That still doesn't reflect a realistic human psychology. The kind of person who can repeatedly commit horrific atrocities without any psychological trauma is a clinical sociopath and/or a religious fanatic who doesn't see their victims as human beings, not resilient. If you don't rationalize really awful shit you did, then that means you have a conscience. Not the opposite.
All the various karma meters in WW games have worked like this and it doesn't reflect real human psychology. I despise those mechanics.
I may have said, "No, that isn't Conscience, we're changing that" at first glance, but when I was running the "Blood bonded to Jesus!" subplot, it was a
Composure check to get it going (Willpower plus True Faith vs. a Difficult target (was that 8? it might have been 9...))
Ah, now we know what the real trouble is that the concept would cause: it would provoke another rules argument about exactly what Conscience is supposed to mean in V:tM psychology. :)
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 04, 2021, 09:06:26 PM
That still doesn't reflect a realistic human psychology. The kind of person who can repeatedly commit horrific atrocities without any psychological trauma is a clinical sociopath and/or a religious fanatic who doesn't see their victims as human beings, not resilient. If you don't rationalize really awful shit you did, then that means you have a conscience. Not the opposite.
All the various karma meters in WW games have worked like this and it doesn't reflect real human psychology. I despise those mechanics.
The vast majority of games have an assumption that PCs inflict casual violence without any lasting psychological trauma. WW is really no worse than others in this regard.
I would not call most dungeon delves "casual violence"...
Quote from: Omega on April 05, 2021, 05:59:51 AM
I would not call most dungeon delves "casual violence"...
Even in D&D, dungeon delves are not everything. Beyond D&D, there are entire genres that don't have much of anything like a dungeon delve. Shadowrun, Star Wars, Torg, L5R, Conspiracy X, and the range of WH40K games are just ones I can see on my shelves at a glance.
Quote from: oggsmash on April 04, 2021, 10:03:53 AM
Quote from: Pat on April 04, 2021, 07:17:39 AM
Quote from: SHARK on April 04, 2021, 06:56:59 AM
Greetings!
The idea is terrible and very offensive. Advertising and promoting such a game depicting such, as Jaeger mentioned, is like a neon sign invitation to being beaten to death with a lead pipe. Considering that in our world right now, people have been attacked, beaten and or killed for far less.
Fast food workers not bringing food fast enough and being assaulted or killed;
Store employees asking someone politely to wear a mask and being assaulted and beaten;
Innocent people sitting outside choosing not to wear a mask, and having women come up to them and attack them and throw hot coffee in their face;
Uber drivers picking someone up for a ride and being tazered to death.
So, promoting a "game" depicting Jesus as a vampire...just no. I don't think such a "game" would be a good idea and would recommend against it very strongly.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I agree, it's really important that we avoid anything that might offend anyone. We must make sure everything is bland and inoffensive, or we deserve all the mostly peaceful bone-breaking that comes our way. Because violence isn't real violence, it's words that are the real violence. Censorship is the only way to make the spaces we exist in safe and secure!
Well, I understand your point, and I think Shark is over the top, but I censor myself ALL THE TIME. As a matter of fact any and every even close to sensible person does, because it is a form of civility. I am not for attempting to do the absolutely most provoking and offensive thing possible. Many places do have what are called "fighting words", meaning if you intentionally provoke someone with your offensive words, and get your ass kicked, the police can consider it personal combat or an affray (misdemeanor) instead of an assault. I am not certain such a premise as the OP put forth would rise to that, but I also do not intend to present games where rape is a main theme, or genocide, or serial torture and murder. Because all of those to certain people are on the same ground.
Lots of people worry about things being too bland, and I get that, but though I favor spicy food alot, there is such a thing as way too spicy. I find the people who THINK they want super spicy are often the ones I see sweating bullets and sending the order back after a couple bites.
Self-censorship is valid. I'd say vampire Jesus has more to do with your group than any broader principles. Would someone in your group feel uncomfortable? Then don't be an ass. Are you deliberately trying to piss off some people in your group? Get a different group, and also try to grow up. But otherwise, have fun with it. It's something that will offend a small subset of the population and will make a larger section uncomfortable, but that's about marketing and market size not existential dread. These aren't fighting words.
So much edge I'm using it to mass-manufacture vorpal swords for D&D campaigns.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on April 04, 2021, 11:50:26 PM
Ah, now we know what the real trouble is that the concept would cause: it would provoke another rules argument about exactly what Conscience is supposed to mean in V:tM psychology. :)
This is why I switched over to the lightside/darkside mechanic in Whistlepunk's Feed.
Quote from: HappyDaze on April 05, 2021, 05:55:39 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 04, 2021, 09:06:26 PM
That still doesn't reflect a realistic human psychology. The kind of person who can repeatedly commit horrific atrocities without any psychological trauma is a clinical sociopath and/or a religious fanatic who doesn't see their victims as human beings, not resilient. If you don't rationalize really awful shit you did, then that means you have a conscience. Not the opposite.
All the various karma meters in WW games have worked like this and it doesn't reflect real human psychology. I despise those mechanics.
The vast majority of games have an assumption that PCs inflict casual violence without any lasting psychological trauma. WW is really no worse than others in this regard.
The addition of a humanity mechanic was supposed to challenge this assumption. Not that it actually achieved what it set out to do, but the thought was there.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 04, 2021, 05:58:28 PM
It's very weirdly designed. The more conscience points you have, the easier it is to get away with horrific acts without dinging your humanity meter. You'd think it would work the opposite or something.
A realistic depiction of how guilt affects you would work completely differently. You would suffer PTSD as a result of guilt, not the absence of guilt.
I thought that the higher your conscience, the lesser the bad act had to be to trigger a check, with going particularly bad imposing additional penalties to the roll . . . like high conscience, having to steal would ping you and actually killing someone(innocent and not in self defense) would ping with penalties, but lower conscience you could ignore stealing altogether and the murder would ping but with no penalties to the roll since it was on the level of your conscience now.
I know humanity worked like that. And tbh I don't remember conscience or those other 2 things at all. I thought that was all handled by Humanity(or your Path, if using those) and Willpower.
Quote from: HappyDaze on April 05, 2021, 05:55:39 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 04, 2021, 09:06:26 PM
That still doesn't reflect a realistic human psychology. The kind of person who can repeatedly commit horrific atrocities without any psychological trauma is a clinical sociopath and/or a religious fanatic who doesn't see their victims as human beings, not resilient. If you don't rationalize really awful shit you did, then that means you have a conscience. Not the opposite.
All the various karma meters in WW games have worked like this and it doesn't reflect real human psychology. I despise those mechanics.
The vast majority of games have an assumption that PCs inflict casual violence without any lasting psychological trauma. WW is really no worse than others in this regard.
That's the beauty of Call of Cthulhu. When I ran "No Man's Land", which is about "citizen soldiers" thrown amid the horrors of WWI, both I and the players were surprised by how, by just applying the standard SAN rules, the characters were already suffering from PTSD way before the Mythos appeared. It was sobering. :(
Quote from: GeekEclectic on April 05, 2021, 11:10:35 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 04, 2021, 05:58:28 PM
It's very weirdly designed. The more conscience points you have, the easier it is to get away with horrific acts without dinging your humanity meter. You'd think it would work the opposite or something.
A realistic depiction of how guilt affects you would work completely differently. You would suffer PTSD as a result of guilt, not the absence of guilt.
I thought that the higher your conscience, the lesser the bad act had to be to trigger a check, with going particularly bad imposing additional penalties to the roll . . . like high conscience, having to steal would ping you and actually killing someone(innocent and not in self defense) would ping with penalties, but lower conscience you could ignore stealing altogether and the murder would ping but with no penalties to the roll since it was on the level of your conscience now.
I know humanity worked like that. And tbh I don't remember conscience or those other 2 things at all. I thought that was all handled by Humanity(or your Path, if using those) and Willpower.
I'm not surprised you've forgotten. I don't think anybody liked those mechanics. They were streamlined in VtR and V5. Conscience stats and rolling Willpower were removed.
Quote from: Reckall on April 05, 2021, 11:18:39 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on April 05, 2021, 05:55:39 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 04, 2021, 09:06:26 PM
That still doesn't reflect a realistic human psychology. The kind of person who can repeatedly commit horrific atrocities without any psychological trauma is a clinical sociopath and/or a religious fanatic who doesn't see their victims as human beings, not resilient. If you don't rationalize really awful shit you did, then that means you have a conscience. Not the opposite.
All the various karma meters in WW games have worked like this and it doesn't reflect real human psychology. I despise those mechanics.
The vast majority of games have an assumption that PCs inflict casual violence without any lasting psychological trauma. WW is really no worse than others in this regard.
That's the beauty of Call of Cthulhu. When I ran "No Man's Land", which is about "citizen soldiers" thrown amid the horrors of WWI, both I and the players were surprised by how, by just applying the standard SAN rules, the characters were already suffering from PTSD way before the Mythos appeared. It was sobering. :(
Indeed. RPGs typically offer an extremely romanticized depiction of violence and its effects on people.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 05, 2021, 11:21:56 AMIndeed. RPGs typically offer an extremely romanticized depiction of violence and its effects on people.
True. But if they didn't, they'd lose a lot of their appeal as games.
Imagine a chess set where some evil designer had implanted sound chips in every piece, so that the moment a piece was removed from the board, it would scream in mortal agony for anywhere between five to thirty seconds, sometimes just trailing off in a bubbling gurgle and sometimes stopping abruptly. (For extra edgelordiness, make the queen's "voice" a woman's.) You'd no doubt sell a bunch of sets for the gag/novelty value, but I'd wager very few people would use them to play consistently after the first couple of times, especially if you couldn't turn the effect off.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on April 05, 2021, 01:03:37 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 05, 2021, 11:21:56 AMIndeed. RPGs typically offer an extremely romanticized depiction of violence and its effects on people.
True. But if they didn't, they'd lose a lot of their appeal as games.
It depends from the kind of experience the game wants to offer. A game about soldiers in a warzone can have rules for either "romanticised" (John Wayne) or "realistic" (Saving Private Ryan, Fury...) portrayals.
Even in D&D 3.5E you have the concept of "taint" introduced in Heroes of Horror: the psychological price a hero has to pay when confronted by horrifying things 24/7.
And then of course you have CoC, where it's the very concept of SAN that makes the game.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on April 05, 2021, 01:03:37 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 05, 2021, 11:21:56 AMIndeed. RPGs typically offer an extremely romanticized depiction of violence and its effects on people.
True. But if they didn't, they'd lose a lot of their appeal as games.
Imagine a chess set where some evil designer had implanted sound chips in every piece, so that the moment a piece was removed from the board, it would scream in mortal agony for anywhere between five to thirty seconds, sometimes just trailing off in a bubbling gurgle and sometimes stopping abruptly. (For extra edgelordiness, make the queen's "voice" a woman's.) You'd no doubt sell a bunch of sets for the gag/novelty value, but I'd wager very few people would use them to play consistently after the first couple of times, especially if you couldn't turn the effect off.
Well, yes.
But... whenever somebody tries to make a game which questions that assumption, such as
World of Darkness or
Call of Cthulhu (but mostly the former, by a lot), players make the mistake of maintaining that assumption and getting frustrated at the rules for "punishing" them when go around killing everyone in their path and stealing everything that isn't (or even is) nailed down. Even the developers fall prey to this by inventing new mechanics that let you ignore the "punishment" for engaging in such behavior (e.g. paths, touchstones, whatever), which makes it pointless to include in the first place.
To still use the chess metaphor, the problem here is that some people try to force the issue anyway. Rather than just
not play with the screaming chess set, they force themselves to listen to the screaming and constantly complain about it. They make and buy special chess pieces that have a mute button they can press whenever convenient. They waste all that effort whining and complaining and making cheat pieces when they could just play with a normal chess set.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 05, 2021, 01:19:18 PMBut... whenever somebody tries to make a game which questions that assumption, such as World of Darkness ... players make the mistake of maintaining that assumption and getting frustrated at the rules for "punishing" them when (they) go around killing everyone in their path and stealing everything that isn't (or even is) nailed down.
I would have to say that if
the players themselves are "maintaining that assumption" (i.e. that realistic representation of the long-term psychological trauma effects of personal violence is, for most groups, a net negative for overall game enjoyment) then they've just by definition proven that it
isn't an assumption, or a mistake.
QuoteThey waste all that effort whining and complaining and making cheat pieces when they could just play with a normal chess set.
They could, but the problem there is that there are many ways "chess sets" are not created equal. It's not unreasonable to complain that a particular game which does give you a gameplay experience you really want (e.g. being a badass vampire creature of the night) only provides it at the price of enforcing a gameplay experience you really
don't want (e.g. rules about losing conscience and humanity that strike you as either unrealistic or uninteresting).
Part of the difficulty with WoD games in particular, I think, is that they try to have it both ways: they want to make it possible to play as both action-packed urban fantasy adventure
and as intense interior psychological existential drama, without considering the possibility that these modes are to some extent mutually exclusive -- if for no other reason than that sheer weight of repetition, in any ongoing long-running game, will undermine the dramatic impact of any particular psychological trope. Consider the need to hunt and feed in a
Vampire campaign: almost without exception, such scenes get played through maybe once or twice "on stage" at the start of the story, and then are handled with quick "off-stage" die rolls for the vast majority of the rest of it. (At least in my experience.)
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on April 05, 2021, 02:08:17 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 05, 2021, 01:19:18 PMBut... whenever somebody tries to make a game which questions that assumption, such as World of Darkness ... players make the mistake of maintaining that assumption and getting frustrated at the rules for "punishing" them when (they) go around killing everyone in their path and stealing everything that isn't (or even is) nailed down.
I would have to say that if the players themselves are "maintaining that assumption" (i.e. that realistic representation of the long-term psychological trauma effects of personal violence is, for most groups, a net negative for overall game enjoyment) then they've just by definition proven that it isn't an assumption, or a mistake.
QuoteThey waste all that effort whining and complaining and making cheat pieces when they could just play with a normal chess set.
They could, but the problem there is that there are many ways "chess sets" are not created equal. It's not unreasonable to complain that a particular game which does give you a gameplay experience you really want (e.g. being a badass vampire creature of the night) only provides it at the price of enforcing a gameplay experience you really don't want (e.g. rules about losing conscience and humanity that strike you as either unrealistic or uninteresting).
Part of the difficulty with WoD games in particular, I think, is that they try to have it both ways: they want to make it possible to play as both action-packed urban fantasy adventure and as intense interior psychological existential drama, without considering the possibility that these modes are to some extent mutually exclusive -- if for no other reason than that sheer weight of repetition, in any ongoing long-running game, will undermine the dramatic impact of any particular psychological trope. Consider the need to hunt and feed in a Vampire campaign: almost without exception, such scenes get played through maybe once or twice "on stage" at the start of the story, and then are handled with quick "off-stage" die rolls for the vast majority of the rest of it. (At least in my experience.)
This is why I prefer Whistlepunk's
Feed. It uses a lightside/darkside mechanic instead that doesn't feel overtly punishing. These rules are flexible enough that you can switch seamlessly between playing b-movie vampires and angst fest. (Both options are presented with their own sub-chapters.)
Quote from: Greentongue on April 03, 2021, 08:50:09 PM
Death cult, lots of references to blood, keeps coming back, wants people to "let him in".
I can see a game where that is a secret truth. I can also see people going absolutely crazy just mentioning the idea.
Could it Ever be done? Is there a group of people that would actually give it a go?
Sounds like a terrible idea to me.
Why not just stick to making Abraham Lincoln a vampire like the other cool people ::)
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on April 05, 2021, 02:08:17 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 05, 2021, 01:19:18 PMBut... whenever somebody tries to make a game which questions that assumption, such as World of Darkness ... players make the mistake of maintaining that assumption and getting frustrated at the rules for "punishing" them when (they) go around killing everyone in their path and stealing everything that isn't (or even is) nailed down.
I would have to say that if the players themselves are "maintaining that assumption" (i.e. that realistic representation of the long-term psychological trauma effects of personal violence is, for most groups, a net negative for overall game enjoyment) then they've just by definition proven that it isn't an assumption, or a mistake.
I guess that anyone who signs up for Call of Cthulhu knows what he is signing for...
Quote from: Reckall on April 05, 2021, 01:17:03 PM
It depends from the kind of experience the game wants to offer. A game about soldiers in a warzone can have rules for either "romanticised" (John Wayne) or "realistic" (Saving Private Ryan, Fury...) portrayals.
Ugh. No offense, but I find that particular phrasing of types of games really irritating. It implies that if characters don't come out of combat emotional wrecks then the game is unrealistic. PSTD is real and it's awful, sure, but a vast majority of the combat vets I know personally are just fine with regard to their sanity and emotional wellbeing.
It's an interesting topic. Personally I like Junger's take on it in Tribe. He noted that PTSD is higher among non-combat guys than combat guys, and doesn't appear after X time, but once the person leaves the service, whether that be 10 days or 10 years after the supposedly-precipitating event. He notes too that during the Blitz in London, after 9/11 in NYC, after many natural disasters, the rate of mental health issues and suicides goes down.
His theory is that PSTD is about trauma, certainly, but is also about alienation. During a disaster people come together - they have a sense of community and common purpose. Combat units tend to be tighter (esprit de corps) than non-combat - they more of a sense of community and common purpose - and while you're still in you've got the support of your tribe, once you're out you're a bit fucked. Like that scene in a war movie where the vet comes home and he's walking through the supermarket looking at the 38 brands of applesauce, and he's miserable. So he goes back to war. For your mental health, it's better to be shot at and have a tribe than be at peace and alone.
A good game group is something of a tribe. You have a sense of community and common purpose - that's why you bring snacks and have an adventure module. It's not a terribly profound version of a tribe, but it's still a tribe. With a sense of community and common purpose, with a tribe, you're happier.
And in a tribe, you try not to deliberately offend people just to be SuperShockEdgyCool.
You generally offend whatever the absent outgroup is instead, which can result in stuff like piss christ and Vampire Jesus and whatever.
How is Tribe, any good?
It's more of an extended, Rolling Stone-style article than a book, it really could be fleshed out into a lot more, but yes, it's very good. I've spoken to other ex-military guys and it rings true for all.
The same would apply for police, paramedics and so on, I would expect. That couple of years after retiring from uniformed service is a dangerous time, mentally. Of course it is for other retirees, too, but...
Quote from: This Guy on April 05, 2021, 10:05:15 PM
You generally offend whatever the absent outgroup is instead, which can result in stuff like piss christ and Vampire Jesus and whatever.
How is Tribe, any good?
Good? Who cares? It's an unalterable fact of human nature. People form cliques/clans/tribes/packs and it cannot be stopped.
Quote from: ThatChrisGuy on April 05, 2021, 11:52:13 PM
Good? Who cares? It's an unalterable fact of human nature. People form cliques/clans/tribes/packs and it cannot be stopped.
You're right, it's entirely unremarkable and uninteresting, and therefore not worthy of further comment. This is in keeping with the OP.
Quote from: Mishihari on April 05, 2021, 09:13:10 PM
Quote from: Reckall on April 05, 2021, 01:17:03 PM
It depends from the kind of experience the game wants to offer. A game about soldiers in a warzone can have rules for either "romanticised" (John Wayne) or "realistic" (Saving Private Ryan, Fury...) portrayals.
Ugh. No offense, but I find that particular phrasing of types of games really irritating. It implies that if characters don't come out of combat emotional wrecks then the game is unrealistic. PSTD is real and it's awful, sure, but a vast majority of the combat vets I know personally are just fine with regard to their sanity and emotional wellbeing.
No offense taken, but I didn't imply that the characters
must come out as emotional wrecks, only that the possibility does exist. And not even uniformly: maybe one of them will come down with PTSD, due to personality and circumstances. Maybe the characters see NPCs losing it in the middle of a battle (notice how, in the two movies I mentioned, Fury and SPR, not everybody is a wreck). The important thing is that the rules reflect the possibility - if you want to play that kind of game.
muhammad and jesus are the new blade, like my avatar of miles davis. the coolest idea would be to run a shadowrun game where the stem-cell parts of jesus lived infinitely in a world where his bones would be used as money. light-slicked streets of NYC leave the cross on people's necks, unless they get stomped on like chauvin. the eiderdown is superior to the gun as we've always said and it means all the homeless jesuses have their i love jesus hats.
Quote from: wlake.gmtn on April 06, 2021, 09:16:12 AM
muhammad and jesus are the new blade, like my avatar of miles davis. the coolest idea would be to run a shadowrun game where the stem-cell parts of jesus lived infinitely in a world where his bones would be used as money. light-slicked streets of NYC leave the cross on people's necks, unless they get stomped on like chauvin. the eiderdown is superior to the gun as we've always said and it means all the homeless jesuses have their i love jesus hats.
Way too many meds or not nearly enough. :D
Quote from: CRKrueger on April 06, 2021, 11:56:04 AM
Quote from: wlake.gmtn on April 06, 2021, 09:16:12 AM
muhammad and jesus are the new blade, like my avatar of miles davis. the coolest idea would be to run a shadowrun game where the stem-cell parts of jesus lived infinitely in a world where his bones would be used as money. light-slicked streets of NYC leave the cross on people's necks, unless they get stomped on like chauvin. the eiderdown is superior to the gun as we've always said and it means all the homeless jesuses have their i love jesus hats.
Way too many meds or not nearly enough. :D
The Canadian horror author Garfield Reeves-Stevens wrote a book in the '80s called
Children of the Shroud, which was based on the gag of managing to clone the DNA extracted from the Shroud of Turin. Never read it myself so I don't know exactly how offensive it was -- or exactly how it was offensive, for that matter -- but the idea's been used before.