Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 05, 2024, 11:10:27 AM
Actors can be actual gamers as well. That doesn't mean that what they do on camera is actual gaming.

That's always been my argument.  CriticalRole is not an actual game.  It's a scripted show with the "players" following a script.  Nothing that they do on the show  (I have watched clips) is anything like what happens in any game I run or any of the games that I have played.

They are actors "pretending" to play.

Quote from: GhostNinja on March 05, 2024, 11:21:25 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 05, 2024, 11:10:27 AM
Actors can be actual gamers as well. That doesn't mean that what they do on camera is actual gaming.

That's always been my argument.  CriticalRole is not an actual game.  It's a scripted show with the "players" following a script.  Nothing that they do on the show  (I have watched clips) is anything like what happens in any game I run or any of the games that I have played.

They are actors "pretending" to play.

They have a script given to them and they improv of it.  Mercer has a "set" made that he puts down for the combat segment.  It's a game about a voice actor not a game about a character.  They've jumped the shark this season and people are getting tired of it.  CR's games aren't exactly looking great either.  Some of the twists and deaths, yeah planned.  The shit with the chicks kissing live they are doing it to get views.  Hell at the rate they are going, Sam will probably get buggered live on air to get their numbers back up.

I'll watch the video later...

My wife knows Mercer, and we just had a fun discussion about this whole thing. Like most of you here, I'm not a fan of Critical Role, never have been, for the exact same reasons. We all know it's performance "gaming". I never understood why the "Mercer Effect" was so far and widespread, but it dawned me a while ago, that because Critical Role was turbocharger that catapulted all the tourists into the hobby, along likes of things like "Big Bang Theory" and "Stranger Things" - it made me feel like the 80's when I had friends that were TOTALLY into professional wrestling and believed it was all real.

As a wrestler, I appreciated professional wrestling purely for the theater of it all, and the athleticism etc. I never watched it for the wrestling... because it wasn't wrestling. Yet I had friends that would get into arguments with me about how it was *real*. Watching that moment when they finally got over their delusions was funny/sad. It was like when kids realize Santa isn't real.

I'm not saying this to shit on the mass of D&D players that have been banging their head against the fucking wall under the Mercer Effect trying to emulate them - anymore than I shit on kids trying to clothesline their friends in their frontyard emulating Rowdy Roddy Piper, back in the day (well I did stop some kids from doing Jake the Snake's DDT once). The point being, it's the end of this kind of naive innocence in a way. The *PROBLEM* is these are grown ass adults that invariably turn into armchair internet warrior-assholes when discussing it.

I don't *give* a shit about Mercer. I do recognize the damage he's caused, as others have pointed out - on one hand he couldn't imagine how populare his show would be, fair play. But when he saw that so many people were believing it was real, and when the Mercer Effect was coined (the damage was already long and done) he didn't cop to anything other than telling everyone to "settle down, we're professional voice actors - you're not going to achieve this." The shitty little detail he left out that anyone with a mote of sanity and experience knew, was the scripting.

So while profiting on millions, he had every opportunity to come clean - assuming he actually cared about his audience - but no, he chose to half-truth it, and further bend the fucking knee to the corporate masters whose agenda is anti-gamer, and anti-culture. No one is forced to consume another's product (unless you're Pfizer) so I don't begrudge him his success. But I don't sympathize with him in terms of the damage he's caused the hobby*. He take his millions he's made and go get a therapist, do some ibogain.

*By hobby I mean old-school gamers like us who have had the hobby flooded with the tourists that perpetuate the usual bullshit about gaming that we long disabused ourselves of, but they're of this breed of insufferables that simply believe they know better. Now their bubbles are burst, and sad as it is, I don't have time to give a to much of a shit about it. But it's fun to talk about it on the forum between my dayjob activities.

You know, I normally watch Pundit's videos (because, while I don't always agree... though I usually do... I almost always see something worth thinking about), but DAMN!  Three and a half hours?!?!  Dude, I have a job outside of gaming.  I'm gonna have to ask for a TLDW on this one, because I've never seen any media that has 3.5 hours of constantly high-quality content (well, maybe the LotR Extended Editions).  Someone do a brother a favor and summarize, please...

Did Critical Role bring lots of people into the hobby who are still into it today, or did it bring people into watching these kinds of things?

Quote from: PencilBoy99 on March 05, 2024, 02:52:55 PM
Did Critical Role bring lots of people into the hobby who are still into it today, or did it bring people into watching these kinds of things?

A... Critical question.

I doubt it. I'm sure there's arguments to support the idea, and arguments against it.

Quote from: tenbones on March 05, 2024, 12:58:42 PM
*By hobby I mean old-school gamers like us who have had the hobby flooded with the tourists that perpetuate the usual bullshit about gaming that we long disabused ourselves of, but they're of this breed of insufferables that simply believe they know better. Now their bubbles are burst, and sad as it is, I don't have time to give a to much of a shit about it. But it's fun to talk about it on the forum between my dayjob activities.

Back in the 1980s, I was also a breed of insufferable teenager who didn't meekly listen to the 50-somethings telling me the correct way to have fun. I experimented, trying different games and later homebrewing my own. Sometimes they worked, sometimes they didn't, but I found it a rewarding experience to try.

Now I enjoy collaborating with my son, and I often run teen-friendly events at local cons, but I also enjoy trying out new games run by younger people. Often these are a bust, but sometimes there's stuff that I like.

Quote from: PencilBoy99 on March 05, 2024, 02:52:55 PM
Did Critical Role bring lots of people into the hobby who are still into it today, or did it bring people into watching these kinds of things?

Oh they popularized D&D as therapy that's for fucking sure.  At the heights of Covid, on D&D Beyond the LFG forums was half filled with pronouns, rainbows and dog gimp furries.  It was a hive of villainy and 13 year old boys looking to find a game just waiting for a SWAT team to bust the pedos.  It's a bit better now, the rainbows have cleared, pronouns in a few posts but at least they hide the leftist values required, still a lot of the underage shit that should not be in an online forum.  The FBI should seriously be watching D&D Beyond and bust them, predators have to be using that site.  So at least part of the glop has cleared up there.  Less people are going there.  More people are using VTT's.  I'm sure Roll20 probably has the full on rainbow crowd going now - nope just checked wall to wall pay to play.

Well what I saw from Mercer were players with bad attitudes and worse expectations.  They come with backstories they expect you to include, I do NOT do that.  Their backstory is what they do in the game, they build the story then and there.  I'm not going to write custom content for each player.  I've got the world built, encounter it and do what you want or don't their choice.  When my players go to the next world map, I'll ask them is there any place else they want to explore before leaving?  No.  Ok.

I started a new open game at the hobby shop, had Discord open and gave them a free starter guide, asked them to please look up the rules and ask questions, I had 4 guys who showed up and took the time and 6 people no clue but really liked CR.  I kept the original 4 and 6 months later still gaming.  The CR crowd like the idea of a RPG, but hell no not playing one.

Quote from: GhostNinja on March 05, 2024, 11:21:25 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 05, 2024, 11:10:27 AM
Actors can be actual gamers as well. That doesn't mean that what they do on camera is actual gaming.

That's always been my argument.  CriticalRole is not an actual game.  It's a scripted show with the "players" following a script.  Nothing that they do on the show  (I have watched clips) is anything like what happens in any game I run or any of the games that I have played.

They are actors "pretending" to play.

Nobody ever believes me, but I assure you they do not have a script. No really, they don't. Mercer has a brief outline of beats he plans to hit unless the players decide something completely off track, and of course he highly preps the adventure on his end, but the players really are improving.

I mean for fucks sake, there are entire TV shows right now that have no scripts and you guys can't believe a D&D game is unscripted.

I've briefly watched a bit of CR just to see what it was all about, and I don't even understand why people think that is scripted. It's not that good. It's not at the level of a scripted show. There is a world of difference between CR and an actually scripted proper filmed show. It's so obviously improved I just don't get why people think it's scripted.

I mean, it's not even the best unscripted show out there by a long mile. If you want to see what a very good unscripted show looks like, try The Gallows Pole from the BBC. Now that is a superb unscripted show where you actually have a hard time telling there is no script it's so seamless. That show has beats given to actors, and that show will sometimes shoot multiple takes, but all the dialogue is improved by the actors based on the extremely vague summary from the director. And it's incredible.

Here is a pretty ordinary scene from that show. Actors were told they were ex lovers, had not seen each other for 7 years, discuss what they thought they would discuss after not seeing each other for 7 years, and where the cameras were set for walking and sitting. Everything else is just these two actors playing it out as they chose in the moment. And I am betting it's better than 90% of anything in CR:

Quote from: jhkim on March 05, 2024, 03:31:17 PM

Quote from: tenbones on March 05, 2024, 12:58:42 PM
*By hobby I mean old-school gamers like us who have had the hobby flooded with the tourists that perpetuate the usual bullshit about gaming that we long disabused ourselves of, but they're of this breed of insufferables that simply believe they know better. Now their bubbles are burst, and sad as it is, I don't have time to give a to much of a shit about it. But it's fun to talk about it on the forum between my dayjob activities.

Back in the 1980s, I was also a breed of insufferable teenager who didn't meekly listen to the 50-somethings telling me the correct way to have fun. I experimented, trying different games and later homebrewing my own. Sometimes they worked, sometimes they didn't, but I found it a rewarding experience to try.

Now I enjoy collaborating with my son, and I often run teen-friendly events at local cons, but I also enjoy trying out new games run by younger people. Often these are a bust, but sometimes there's stuff that I like.

The difference now is we have 50+ years of actual TTRPG experience whereas when we were insufferable teenagers, we *did not* have that benefit. The world was young then. And honestly, I'm pathologically curious so I always have a beginner's mind, even now. I'm always willing to listen to people with more experience than me in a given thing.

There are principles that have emerged that are fundamental to running TTRPG's. By changing those fundamentals you stray away from what TTRPG's are - and that's fine. But let's not pretend they're the same thing.

Lastly, there is positively *nothing* being added thus far to the conversation by younger designers to the genre that I find novel. I'm open to it - design it. But be prepared to be honestly criticized. Likewise - be open to being wrong. SEE THE MARVEL THREAD where you can see me doing exactly that. But don't call it something it's not. Liking something does not mean it sets some kind of new standard.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on March 04, 2024, 04:06:00 PM
Not sure if you added this in, this is the cardinal sin of Matt Mercer and he needs to be pilloried for it.  He was playing an asian character on a black youtubers RPG blog and twitter posts got him to stop playing said character and apologize - yup a roleplayer apologized for roleplaying someone who he is not.  To me, this is an unforgivable sin by Mercer.  Anything that a person in the D&D space enables racism needs to be called out.

And not just any Black designer, but Chris Spivey, author of Harlem Unbound, running his magnum opus Haunted West.

And not just any #Twitter twit, but Daniel Kwan, the person Chris hired to write the Chinese section of Haunted West.

I posted about this awhile back. Sadly took a lot of hoops to find as neither #Google nor #Bing are properly indexing this site anymore, let alone the rest of the internet. We truly are entering an information dark age.

The revolution always eats its own, and straight white male feminist activists will always be the first on the block. Which is why Mercer gave $50000 to Hamas as a desperate attempt to keep himself from being cancelled.

I think we are already seeing a new problem raising its head and that I will term "The Colville Effect" as people take his bad GMing advice and problems erupt.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 05, 2024, 01:35:29 PM
You know, I normally watch Pundit's videos (because, while I don't always agree... though I usually do... I almost always see something worth thinking about), but DAMN!  Three and a half hours?!?!  Dude, I have a job outside of gaming.  I'm gonna have to ask for a TLDW on this one, because I've never seen any media that has 3.5 hours of constantly high-quality content (well, maybe the LotR Extended Editions).  Someone do a brother a favor and summarize, please...

It was a livestream, they tend to be longer than regular videos.

Quote from: tenbones on March 05, 2024, 05:37:28 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 05, 2024, 03:31:17 PM

Quote from: tenbones on March 05, 2024, 12:58:42 PM
*By hobby I mean old-school gamers like us who have had the hobby flooded with the tourists that perpetuate the usual bullshit about gaming that we long disabused ourselves of, but they're of this breed of insufferables that simply believe they know better. Now their bubbles are burst, and sad as it is, I don't have time to give a to much of a shit about it. But it's fun to talk about it on the forum between my dayjob activities.

Back in the 1980s, I was also a breed of insufferable teenager who didn't meekly listen to the 50-somethings telling me the correct way to have fun. I experimented, trying different games and later homebrewing my own. Sometimes they worked, sometimes they didn't, but I found it a rewarding experience to try.

Now I enjoy collaborating with my son, and I often run teen-friendly events at local cons, but I also enjoy trying out new games run by younger people. Often these are a bust, but sometimes there's stuff that I like.

The difference now is we have 50+ years of actual TTRPG experience whereas when we were insufferable teenagers, we *did not* have that benefit. The world was young then. And honestly, I'm pathologically curious so I always have a beginner's mind, even now. I'm always willing to listen to people with more experience than me in a given thing.

There are principles that have emerged that are fundamental to running TTRPG's. By changing those fundamentals you stray away from what TTRPG's are - and that's fine. But let's not pretend they're the same thing.

Lastly, there is positively *nothing* being added thus far to the conversation by younger designers to the genre that I find novel. I'm open to it - design it. But be prepared to be honestly criticized. Likewise - be open to being wrong. SEE THE MARVEL THREAD where you can see me doing exactly that. But don't call it something it's not. Liking something does not mean it sets some kind of new standard.

You are correct.  I run the D&D club at a high school.  We have over 50 kids, most of whom are running 5e (my group is the intro group for brand new players and using a modified S&W).  The vast majority of the groups are having fun making all of the same mistakes we made back in the 80's.  There's nothing new or innovative in their games.  In fact, I have to keep shooing away bunches of the experienced players into the regular groups, because my campaign is so much smoother and focused, and the other DMs don't know how to pull that off.  Like I tell them, you'll be running just like I do... in another forty-odd years.

But hey, it's the jhkimAI bot.  Every post of his is picking one small part of a post, usually ancillary to the main discussion, using personal anecdotes to assert that no absolutes exist, then equivocating that into a declaration that both options are equally likely or valid.  It's like clockwork...