Tonight, 8pm Eastern: the RPGPundit Livestream. I'll be reviewing the latest peak-Mercer moment, and the harm he's done to the #dnd & #ttrpg hobby, answering your questions, and a lot more! Don't miss it! #osr #dnd5e
Let me guess, setting expectations for the game to be that of a multi-million dollar produced game with professional voice actors and scripts will be part of this. As soon as someone mentions critical role when interviewing new players, bye.
I don't really pay attention him or critical role really. As far as my hobbies are concerned he just some dude.
Obviously I haven't seen the pundit video as it hasn't premiered yet so I'll just state my thoughts here instead. I don't think he damaged the hobby overall but rather grew it. Not everyone (frankly not even most) of the people who watch his show will transition into a traditional game themselves (whether digital or in person) but some minority of them will want to progress beyond just sperging onto their keyboards in unison. An even smaller portion of them will be normal non-mentally ill people with non-neon hair colors that will stay and be welcome in a campaign and they still owe their introduction to the tabletop gaming hobby to his show. The crazies tend to out themselves pretty quick and it's relatively easy to weed them out once you learn the patterns. No amount of granny shawl wearing nail polished terror supporting mental health crisis videos will change that.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on March 04, 2024, 01:36:37 PM
Let me guess, setting expectations for the game to be that of a multi-million dollar produced game with professional voice actors and scripts will be part of this. As soon as someone mentions critical role when interviewing new players, bye.
I already did that video, like 5 years ago:
So no. What this will be about is how in general, Mercer is a kind of avatar for everything that went wrong with D&D in the 5e era, and how he himself has been an atrocious role model for new gamers in almost every way, not just in creating unrealistic expectations of fun.
And now, he's literally killing people.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 04, 2024, 03:35:58 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on March 04, 2024, 01:36:37 PM
Let me guess, setting expectations for the game to be that of a multi-million dollar produced game with professional voice actors and scripts will be part of this. As soon as someone mentions critical role when interviewing new players, bye.
I already did that video, like 5 years ago:
So no. What this will be about is how in general, Mercer is a kind of avatar for everything that went wrong with D&D in the 5e era, and how he himself has been an atrocious role model for new gamers in almost every way, not just in creating unrealistic expectations of fun.
And now, he's literally killing people.
Not sure if you added this in, this is the cardinal sin of Matt Mercer and he needs to be pilloried for it. He was playing an asian character on a black youtubers RPG blog and twitter posts got him to stop playing said character and apologize - yup a roleplayer apologized for roleplaying someone who he is not. To me, this is an unforgivable sin by Mercer. Anything that a person in the D&D space enables racism needs to be called out.
Or when Critical role was sponsoring what Wendy's and they decided to publicly state they were dropping Wendy's because Wendy's wasn't bowing to some leftarded union on tomato pickers. That action alone did one hell of a death shot on RPG's getting sponsorship in mainline companies. Why would Paramount want to sponsor a D&D show playing a game based on their upcoming movie when the lead RPG player is a commie, what about the other guys in the space are they commies will they break their contract and cause negative sales as well?
Their charity doesn't do anything, they take a 11% cut to pay "salaries", 8% goes for "emergency fund" and then the rest goes to other charities. So 11% of donations goes to the big guy. Ok, and what 80% goes to a charity that has administrative costs (salaries) as well eating up more, and those charities aren't related to gaming, half of them goes to race or genital hole preference. Hey why don't they take their administrative costs and run programs to give impoverished kids after school time playing D&D? It gives the parents a break or the ability to work more hours and teaches the kids basics of strategy, reading and statistics. And at least that administrative cost is doing something.
Yeah I'm being a bitch here, but whenever Mercer has a chance to stand up for the gamers, he breaks down like a shotgun, goes full weak sister and we get a fricken David Hasselhof in a shower scene of him crying about Palestine. Matt, man the fuck up, parachute into Gaza and I'll give the hams to cook for them. They'll treat you like the white savior you believe you are.
A lot of German citizen's feelings were hurt by this video.
/salty rant
Fortunately I don't believe the Hobby is what I share with the vast majority of D&D players.
*MY* Hobby is thriving. I don't give a flying fuck about Mercer or what he does, or how it impacts those that follow him.
Livestream starting in 30 minutes!
I never watched an episode of Critical Role. There was some Amazon Prime TV show, and I watched the first episode, but it was dogshit and I passed.
I'm gonna go off on a limb here and say that Matt Mercer damaged the hobby by becoming popular enough that the grognards feel compelled to bitch about how he taught new players to Play The Game Wrong (tm). Frankly, I'm not convinced Matt Mercer did any more damage to the hobby than a bunch of goths sitting around wearing eyeliner, drinking clamato juice, and having a contest about who can be the most melodramatic twat at the table.
You know...
Swap the rainbow for the color black...
Swap stupid pretentious pronouns for stupid pretentious names...
I think I'm on to something here.
Quote from: Corolinth on March 04, 2024, 10:37:19 PM
I never watched an episode of Critical Role. There was some Amazon Prime TV show, and I watched the first episode, but it was dogshit and I passed.
I'm gonna go off on a limb here and say that Matt Mercer damaged the hobby by becoming popular enough that the grognards feel compelled to bitch about how he taught new players to Play The Game Wrong (tm). Frankly, I'm not convinced Matt Mercer did any more damage to the hobby than a bunch of goths sitting around wearing eyeliner, drinking clamato juice, and having a contest about who can be the most melodramatic twat at the table.
You know...
Swap the rainbow for the color black...
Swap stupid pretentious pronouns for stupid pretentious names...
I think I'm on to something here.
#NotLikeOtherGirls
You're certainly right about depression - shame, contempt for it, & self contempt are dominating emotions. It's not something sufferers boast about.
Quote from: Corolinth on March 04, 2024, 10:37:19 PM
I never watched an episode of Critical Role. There was some Amazon Prime TV show, and I watched the first episode, but it was dogshit and I passed.
I'm gonna go off on a limb here and say that Matt Mercer damaged the hobby by becoming popular enough that the grognards feel compelled to bitch about how he taught new players to Play The Game Wrong (tm). Frankly, I'm not convinced Matt Mercer did any more damage to the hobby than a bunch of goths sitting around wearing eyeliner, drinking clamato juice, and having a contest about who can be the most melodramatic twat at the table.
You know...
Swap the rainbow for the color black...
Swap stupid pretentious pronouns for stupid pretentious names...
I think I'm on to something here.
Well, the livestream went very well, and you can watch the replay to find out what my actual argument was.
Quote from: Corolinth on March 04, 2024, 10:37:19 PM
I never watched an episode of Critical Role. There was some Amazon Prime TV show, and I watched the first episode, but it was dogshit and I passed.
I'm gonna go off on a limb here and say that Matt Mercer damaged the hobby by becoming popular enough that the grognards feel compelled to bitch about how he taught new players to Play The Game Wrong (tm).
There is no one right way to play DnD or any tabletop game. But there are plenty of absolutely wrong ways to play it too. Matt Mercer encouraged storygaming, dicefudging, and trying to force a linear story onto a campaign. Fundamentally, what he does wrong is teach 5E players that DnD is a "creative storytelling exercise" (exact words from the man himself.) he demonstrates to others a fundamental misunderstanding that causes others to fundamentally misunderstand the TTRPG hobby. TTRPGs are not stories. Stories are linear and do not require participation to advance continuity. TTRPGS are still fundamentally games. You play them and by playing them move things forward. The GM might have an idea of how the campaign can go. But that is easily ruined by the simple fact that participation drives continuity forward. And players can fundamentally shift the direction of the game in ways a GM doesn't intend. And Matt Mercer's stupid philosophy doesn't account for. Which is reason number 1 why so many 5E GMs are shit. They are playing the game wrong because they don't even want to play a game. They want to be shown or create a story. And the idea of even playing a game where failure is possible is scary to them. Even in the most rules light games. The game advances via the actions of the players. And any story that arises comes after the fact. That's the harm Mercer does. It's like convincing a bunch of football players to turn up to the pitch with Hockey sticks and start ignoring all the rules. They aren't playing Football anymore. They aren't even playing Hockey. They're just wandering around the pitch telling you about how great their Tiefling Warlock is and all the romance they've done. And no one plays the damn game.
Pundit, my cat looks very similar to yours.
I don't watch CriticalRole and kinda don't get watching others play a game (for TTRPGS or video games). But I do know one member of Critical Role and have for 30 years as a casual acquaintance. Can vouch for him being a genuine nerd who has played TTRPGs for decades before he was on Critical Role, and that he was playing with the Critical Role crew as just an ordinary game before they even considered the possibility of filming it for others to see it. And that he became a voice actor long after he became a gamer, unless you count him working Renaissance Faire as "acting".
Quote from: Mistwell on March 05, 2024, 10:01:35 AM
Pundit, my cat looks very similar to yours.
I don't watch CriticalRole and kinda don't get watching others play a game (for TTRPGS or video games). But I do know one member of Critical Role and have for 30 years as a casual acquaintance. Can vouch for him being a genuine nerd who has played TTRPGs for decades before he was on Critical Role, and that he was playing with the Critical Role crew as just an ordinary game before they even considered the possibility of filming it for others to see it. And that he became a voice actor long after he became a gamer, unless you count him working Renaissance Faire as "acting".
Actors can be actual gamers as well. That doesn't mean that what they do on camera is actual gaming.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 05, 2024, 11:10:27 AM
Actors can be actual gamers as well. That doesn't mean that what they do on camera is actual gaming.
That's always been my argument. CriticalRole is not an actual game. It's a scripted show with the "players" following a script. Nothing that they do on the show (I have watched clips) is anything like what happens in any game I run or any of the games that I have played.
They are actors "pretending" to play.
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 05, 2024, 11:21:25 AM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 05, 2024, 11:10:27 AM
Actors can be actual gamers as well. That doesn't mean that what they do on camera is actual gaming.
That's always been my argument. CriticalRole is not an actual game. It's a scripted show with the "players" following a script. Nothing that they do on the show (I have watched clips) is anything like what happens in any game I run or any of the games that I have played.
They are actors "pretending" to play.
They have a script given to them and they improv of it. Mercer has a "set" made that he puts down for the combat segment. It's a game about a voice actor not a game about a character. They've jumped the shark this season and people are getting tired of it. CR's games aren't exactly looking great either. Some of the twists and deaths, yeah planned. The shit with the chicks kissing live they are doing it to get views. Hell at the rate they are going, Sam will probably get buggered live on air to get their numbers back up.
I'll watch the video later...
My wife knows Mercer, and we just had a fun discussion about this whole thing. Like most of you here, I'm not a fan of Critical Role, never have been, for the exact same reasons. We all know it's performance "gaming". I never understood why the "Mercer Effect" was so far and widespread, but it dawned me a while ago, that because Critical Role was turbocharger that catapulted all the tourists into the hobby, along likes of things like "Big Bang Theory" and "Stranger Things" - it made me feel like the 80's when I had friends that were TOTALLY into professional wrestling and believed it was all real.
As a wrestler, I appreciated professional wrestling purely for the theater of it all, and the athleticism etc. I never watched it for the wrestling... because it wasn't wrestling. Yet I had friends that would get into arguments with me about how it was *real*. Watching that moment when they finally got over their delusions was funny/sad. It was like when kids realize Santa isn't real.
I'm not saying this to shit on the mass of D&D players that have been banging their head against the fucking wall under the Mercer Effect trying to emulate them - anymore than I shit on kids trying to clothesline their friends in their frontyard emulating Rowdy Roddy Piper, back in the day (well I did stop some kids from doing Jake the Snake's DDT once). The point being, it's the end of this kind of naive innocence in a way. The *PROBLEM* is these are grown ass adults that invariably turn into armchair internet warrior-assholes when discussing it.
I don't *give* a shit about Mercer. I do recognize the damage he's caused, as others have pointed out - on one hand he couldn't imagine how populare his show would be, fair play. But when he saw that so many people were believing it was real, and when the Mercer Effect was coined (the damage was already long and done) he didn't cop to anything other than telling everyone to "settle down, we're professional voice actors - you're not going to achieve this." The shitty little detail he left out that anyone with a mote of sanity and experience knew, was the scripting.
So while profiting on millions, he had every opportunity to come clean - assuming he actually cared about his audience - but no, he chose to half-truth it, and further bend the fucking knee to the corporate masters whose agenda is anti-gamer, and anti-culture. No one is forced to consume another's product (unless you're Pfizer) so I don't begrudge him his success. But I don't sympathize with him in terms of the damage he's caused the hobby*. He take his millions he's made and go get a therapist, do some ibogain.
*By hobby I mean old-school gamers like us who have had the hobby flooded with the tourists that perpetuate the usual bullshit about gaming that we long disabused ourselves of, but they're of this breed of insufferables that simply believe they know better. Now their bubbles are burst, and sad as it is, I don't have time to give a to much of a shit about it. But it's fun to talk about it on the forum between my dayjob activities.
You know, I normally watch Pundit's videos (because, while I don't always agree... though I usually do... I almost always see something worth thinking about), but DAMN! Three and a half hours?!?! Dude, I have a job outside of gaming. I'm gonna have to ask for a TLDW on this one, because I've never seen any media that has 3.5 hours of constantly high-quality content (well, maybe the LotR Extended Editions). Someone do a brother a favor and summarize, please...
Did Critical Role bring lots of people into the hobby who are still into it today, or did it bring people into watching these kinds of things?
Quote from: PencilBoy99 on March 05, 2024, 02:52:55 PM
Did Critical Role bring lots of people into the hobby who are still into it today, or did it bring people into watching these kinds of things?
A... Critical question.
I doubt it. I'm sure there's arguments to support the idea, and arguments against it.
Quote from: tenbones on March 05, 2024, 12:58:42 PM
*By hobby I mean old-school gamers like us who have had the hobby flooded with the tourists that perpetuate the usual bullshit about gaming that we long disabused ourselves of, but they're of this breed of insufferables that simply believe they know better. Now their bubbles are burst, and sad as it is, I don't have time to give a to much of a shit about it. But it's fun to talk about it on the forum between my dayjob activities.
Back in the 1980s, I was also a breed of insufferable teenager who didn't meekly listen to the 50-somethings telling me the correct way to have fun. I experimented, trying different games and later homebrewing my own. Sometimes they worked, sometimes they didn't, but I found it a rewarding experience to try.
Now I enjoy collaborating with my son, and I often run teen-friendly events at local cons, but I also enjoy trying out new games run by younger people. Often these are a bust, but sometimes there's stuff that I like.
Quote from: PencilBoy99 on March 05, 2024, 02:52:55 PM
Did Critical Role bring lots of people into the hobby who are still into it today, or did it bring people into watching these kinds of things?
Oh they popularized D&D as therapy that's for fucking sure. At the heights of Covid, on D&D Beyond the LFG forums was half filled with pronouns, rainbows and dog gimp furries. It was a hive of villainy and 13 year old boys looking to find a game just waiting for a SWAT team to bust the pedos. It's a bit better now, the rainbows have cleared, pronouns in a few posts but at least they hide the leftist values required, still a lot of the underage shit that should not be in an online forum. The FBI should seriously be watching D&D Beyond and bust them, predators have to be using that site. So at least part of the glop has cleared up there. Less people are going there. More people are using VTT's. I'm sure Roll20 probably has the full on rainbow crowd going now - nope just checked wall to wall pay to play.
Well what I saw from Mercer were players with bad attitudes and worse expectations. They come with backstories they expect you to include, I do NOT do that. Their backstory is what they do in the game, they build the story then and there. I'm not going to write custom content for each player. I've got the world built, encounter it and do what you want or don't their choice. When my players go to the next world map, I'll ask them is there any place else they want to explore before leaving? No. Ok.
I started a new open game at the hobby shop, had Discord open and gave them a free starter guide, asked them to please look up the rules and ask questions, I had 4 guys who showed up and took the time and 6 people no clue but really liked CR. I kept the original 4 and 6 months later still gaming. The CR crowd like the idea of a RPG, but hell no not playing one.
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 05, 2024, 11:21:25 AM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 05, 2024, 11:10:27 AM
Actors can be actual gamers as well. That doesn't mean that what they do on camera is actual gaming.
That's always been my argument. CriticalRole is not an actual game. It's a scripted show with the "players" following a script. Nothing that they do on the show (I have watched clips) is anything like what happens in any game I run or any of the games that I have played.
They are actors "pretending" to play.
Nobody ever believes me, but I assure you they do not have a script. No really, they don't. Mercer has a brief outline of beats he plans to hit unless the players decide something completely off track, and of course he highly preps the adventure on his end, but the players really are improving.
I mean for fucks sake, there are entire TV shows right now that have no scripts and you guys can't believe a D&D game is unscripted.
I've briefly watched a bit of CR just to see what it was all about, and I don't even understand why people think that is scripted. It's not that good. It's not at the level of a scripted show. There is a world of difference between CR and an actually scripted proper filmed show. It's so obviously improved I just don't get why people think it's scripted.
I mean, it's not even the best unscripted show out there by a long mile. If you want to see what a very good unscripted show looks like, try The Gallows Pole from the BBC. Now that is a superb unscripted show where you actually have a hard time telling there is no script it's so seamless. That show has beats given to actors, and that show will sometimes shoot multiple takes, but all the dialogue is improved by the actors based on the extremely vague summary from the director. And it's incredible.
Here is a pretty ordinary scene from that show. Actors were told they were ex lovers, had not seen each other for 7 years, discuss what they thought they would discuss after not seeing each other for 7 years, and where the cameras were set for walking and sitting. Everything else is just these two actors playing it out as they chose in the moment. And I am betting it's better than 90% of anything in CR:
Quote from: jhkim on March 05, 2024, 03:31:17 PM
Quote from: tenbones on March 05, 2024, 12:58:42 PM
*By hobby I mean old-school gamers like us who have had the hobby flooded with the tourists that perpetuate the usual bullshit about gaming that we long disabused ourselves of, but they're of this breed of insufferables that simply believe they know better. Now their bubbles are burst, and sad as it is, I don't have time to give a to much of a shit about it. But it's fun to talk about it on the forum between my dayjob activities.
Back in the 1980s, I was also a breed of insufferable teenager who didn't meekly listen to the 50-somethings telling me the correct way to have fun. I experimented, trying different games and later homebrewing my own. Sometimes they worked, sometimes they didn't, but I found it a rewarding experience to try.
Now I enjoy collaborating with my son, and I often run teen-friendly events at local cons, but I also enjoy trying out new games run by younger people. Often these are a bust, but sometimes there's stuff that I like.
The difference now is we have 50+ years of actual TTRPG experience whereas when we were insufferable teenagers, we *did not* have that benefit. The world was young then. And honestly, I'm pathologically curious so I always have a beginner's mind, even now. I'm always willing to listen to people with more experience than me in a given thing.
There are principles that have emerged that are fundamental to running TTRPG's. By changing those fundamentals you stray away from what TTRPG's are - and that's fine. But let's not pretend they're the same thing.
Lastly, there is positively *nothing* being added thus far to the conversation by younger designers to the genre that I find novel. I'm open to it - design it. But be prepared to be honestly criticized. Likewise - be open to being wrong. SEE THE MARVEL THREAD where you can see me doing exactly that. But don't call it something it's not. Liking something does not mean it sets some kind of new standard.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on March 04, 2024, 04:06:00 PM
Not sure if you added this in, this is the cardinal sin of Matt Mercer and he needs to be pilloried for it. He was playing an asian character on a black youtubers RPG blog and twitter posts got him to stop playing said character and apologize - yup a roleplayer apologized for roleplaying someone who he is not. To me, this is an unforgivable sin by Mercer. Anything that a person in the D&D space enables racism needs to be called out.
And not just any Black designer, but Chris Spivey, author of Harlem Unbound, running his magnum opus Haunted West.
And not just any #Twitter twit, but Daniel Kwan, the person Chris hired to write the Chinese section of Haunted West.
I posted about this awhile back (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/i-told-you-so-dd-sjws-demand-you-don-t-play-other-races/msg1153299/#msg1153299). Sadly took a lot of hoops to find as neither #Google nor #Bing are properly indexing this site anymore, let alone the rest of the internet. We truly are entering an information dark age.
The revolution always eats its own, and straight white male feminist activists will always be the first on the block. Which is why Mercer gave $50000 to Hamas as a desperate attempt to keep himself from being cancelled.
I think we are already seeing a new problem raising its head and that I will term "The Colville Effect" as people take his bad GMing advice and problems erupt.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 05, 2024, 01:35:29 PM
You know, I normally watch Pundit's videos (because, while I don't always agree... though I usually do... I almost always see something worth thinking about), but DAMN! Three and a half hours?!?! Dude, I have a job outside of gaming. I'm gonna have to ask for a TLDW on this one, because I've never seen any media that has 3.5 hours of constantly high-quality content (well, maybe the LotR Extended Editions). Someone do a brother a favor and summarize, please...
It was a livestream, they tend to be longer than regular videos.
Quote from: tenbones on March 05, 2024, 05:37:28 PM
Quote from: jhkim on March 05, 2024, 03:31:17 PM
Quote from: tenbones on March 05, 2024, 12:58:42 PM
*By hobby I mean old-school gamers like us who have had the hobby flooded with the tourists that perpetuate the usual bullshit about gaming that we long disabused ourselves of, but they're of this breed of insufferables that simply believe they know better. Now their bubbles are burst, and sad as it is, I don't have time to give a to much of a shit about it. But it's fun to talk about it on the forum between my dayjob activities.
Back in the 1980s, I was also a breed of insufferable teenager who didn't meekly listen to the 50-somethings telling me the correct way to have fun. I experimented, trying different games and later homebrewing my own. Sometimes they worked, sometimes they didn't, but I found it a rewarding experience to try.
Now I enjoy collaborating with my son, and I often run teen-friendly events at local cons, but I also enjoy trying out new games run by younger people. Often these are a bust, but sometimes there's stuff that I like.
The difference now is we have 50+ years of actual TTRPG experience whereas when we were insufferable teenagers, we *did not* have that benefit. The world was young then. And honestly, I'm pathologically curious so I always have a beginner's mind, even now. I'm always willing to listen to people with more experience than me in a given thing.
There are principles that have emerged that are fundamental to running TTRPG's. By changing those fundamentals you stray away from what TTRPG's are - and that's fine. But let's not pretend they're the same thing.
Lastly, there is positively *nothing* being added thus far to the conversation by younger designers to the genre that I find novel. I'm open to it - design it. But be prepared to be honestly criticized. Likewise - be open to being wrong. SEE THE MARVEL THREAD where you can see me doing exactly that. But don't call it something it's not. Liking something does not mean it sets some kind of new standard.
You are correct. I run the D&D club at a high school. We have over 50 kids, most of whom are running 5e (my group is the intro group for brand new players and using a modified S&W). The vast majority of the groups are having fun making all of the same mistakes we made back in the 80's. There's nothing new or innovative in their games. In fact, I have to keep shooing away bunches of the experienced players into the regular groups, because my campaign is so much smoother and focused, and the other DMs don't know how to pull that off. Like I tell them, you'll be running just like I do... in another forty-odd years.
But hey, it's the jhkimAI bot. Every post of his is picking one small part of a post, usually ancillary to the main discussion, using personal anecdotes to assert that no absolutes exist, then equivocating that into a declaration that both options are equally likely or valid. It's like clockwork...
I don't want to rant but this thread made me think of my own encounter with a CR-fan DM.
I was pretty apathetic about CR and found it quite cringe, but nothing I really cared about. A couple of years ago me and a player from my group were invited to play in a campaign by a friend-of a-friend who wanted to try to start DMing 5e. And the DM and the rest of the group were CR-hobby-tourists. There was a complete culture-chock for sure. The DM seemed taken completely by surprise by us playing the game, exploring the dungeon, fighting tactically to beat enemies.
The DM had an self-insert cringe oh-so-funny-chaotic-rogue in the party to lead us and show how bad our characters where (like give heavy penalties to players trying to do the same basic actions as snowflake DM insert). No real story was presented or any clear objective were layed out for us other than completing a generic dungeon. But still it was obvious the DM tried extremely hard to make us emulate CR thropes like "wohoo-high-five-critical hit!" and would fugde rolls against boss enemies so the *scene* would play out as "intended".
It was a very odd and not very joyful experience for us, but we tried our best giving some very mild friendly suggestions about DMing and explaining how a conventional game of D&D actually plays after the game. The DM would retort in talking points that D&D was just a make-belive drama that doesn't need to follow any rules or should be like a freeform improv theater. I suggested, mildly, that maybe another roleplaying game like Fate Accelerated would fit better for the type of game DM was after. But nope, that's not what CR plays.
The DM lost interest and dropped D&D and roleplaying completely after one more half-hearted attempt to get a game going.
And that is my anecdotal tale of my encounter with the Mercer-effect.
Double post. Delete
Quote from: Omega on March 06, 2024, 06:41:14 AM
I think we are already seeing a new problem raising its head and that I will term "The Colville Effect" as people take his bad GMing advice and problems erupt.
I've watched a few Colville vids. While I don't agree with everything he says, I haven't heard him give any terrible GM advice. Do you have any examples at hand?
Unlike Mercer, Colville comes across as a genuine RPGer. (And general TT enthusiast. Dude was streaming the Dune board game before the new movies popped out.)
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 06, 2024, 02:38:11 AM
The revolution always eats its own, and straight white male feminist activists will always be the first on the block. Which is why Mercer gave $50000 to Hamas as a desperate attempt to keep himself from being cancelled.
Don't worry, Matt will come out as trans and Marsha will stay with her girlfriend in support of her "transition" as a lesbian couple.
Scripted "Reality" Shows of all types, have always been cake for the ignorant masses.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 06, 2024, 12:36:14 PM
Quote from: Omega on March 06, 2024, 06:41:14 AM
I think we are already seeing a new problem raising its head and that I will term "The Colville Effect" as people take his bad GMing advice and problems erupt.
I've watched a few Colville vids. While I don't agree with everything he says, I haven't heard him give any terrible GM advice. Do you have any examples at hand?
Unlike Mercer, Colville comes across as a genuine RPGer. (And general TT enthusiast. Dude was streaming the Dune board game before the new movies popped out.)
Colville has gone down the road of RPGs as guided-story lately (he's definitely not a "sandbox" guy now, though he did originally have some pretty good videos on them). He's advocated for fudging, quantum ogres, and result over process (as in the mechanics and rolls shouldn't get in the way of the "moment of triumph" for the players) here and there, which I don't think is really good advice. His recent foray into RPG design is pretty clearly drawing from many of the conceits and mechanics of D&D 4e (many of which are the meta-mechanics) and seems unconcerned with simulation or fluff (granted, it's still in development, so that could come later). So it's hardly surprising that some folks on a mostly OSR-focused board might not feel that he's taking new DMs in a productive direction...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 06, 2024, 02:59:47 PM
Colville has gone down the road of RPGs as guided-story lately (he's definitely not a "sandbox" guy now, though he did originally have some pretty good videos on them). He's advocated for fudging, quantum ogres, and result over process
I did notice he seemed to have changed, his early stuff was pretty good.
Critical role is not "Scripted". Certainly not the way people think.
Once you understand what they are doing, it becomes obvious why explicitly "scripting" the show is just not needed.
Pulling from an older post of mine:
Critical Role is basically improv theater. It is a Reality TV Show about Playing DnD.
They all are trained improv actors explicitly putting on a show. Using an RPG as the central prop/premise that they all bounce off of.
Big hint: The Players refer to themselves as "The Cast"... Mercer doesn't need to "script" anything because they are all buying into the central premise of the show.
Mercer's GM "skills" are wildly overblown due to the players being there specifically to make things as smooth as possible for him. There is no "Fuck this. Let's go be pirates!" from the players critical role "Cast"...
He is basically leading them down a guided Adventure Path; with every branch more or less plotted out ahead of time. And they happily comply each step of the way.
For Kicks I listened to part of an episode where Mercer let a PC die: (To much wailing and gnashing of teeth...)
Campaign 2 Ep 26 (The one where Mercer actually kills a PC)
I skipped to the last part, and I heard some rather interesting stuff when I just wanted to see their reaction when the PC bought it...
At 3:23:30 - Mercer pulls out a terrain map for their ambush fight:
A player proves his own cluelessness and says: "You can't know that...No way you could..."
Mercer says: "I have multiple maps prepared depending on where things happen."
I can only surmise that the clueless player is so used to "playing D&D" on Adventure Path rails that he doesn't even realize that he is riding them...
At 3:24:10 - Another player informs the clueless one: "He did move 4 to 5 maps into the building today." Then referring to a room in the CR building: "... no Cast allowed in here."
At 3:25:03 - Mercer breaks out the prepped map and says: "This scenario that you've found..."
Just from this brief exchange, we are able to see how things really work:
1- CR does make an effort to conceal details of the AP/Episode from the players. IMHO this is important for them to maintain their credibility with their fans for being "unscripted".
But being #unscripted just doesn't matter.
Because:
2- Mercer is clearly running a Guided Adventure Path. Yes there are 'branches', but it is clear from the exchange shown that they are usually accounted for well in advance.
3- The fact that the group walked straight into his prep proves that they are happily following along with the overall intended "plot" of the AP in front of them. (Clueless player aside. But in his defense; He clearly knows no other way to "play" D&D.)
All AP roads lead to Mercer's storytelling Rome. Mercer rarely, has to 'wing it' in reaction to the PC's actions.
Props to Mercer for letting the dice fall where they may, and actually killing the PC. But it is clear from the Players reactions, and some of the commentary at the end of the show: That that PC death was a literal fluke of the dice and circumstances, and was not viewed as something "on the table" in the typical CR combat...
Despite the fact that the CR team has been playing D&D for years, they still get razzed periodically for their lack of rules knowledge. What these commentators don't understand is that these players have been selected for their ability to play their PC's in-character whist following along with Mercer's AP campaigns.
So no. The CR players are not told what has been plotted out for them ahead of time. This is very important so that they are able to keep up credibility with their fans, and prove to potential naysayers that they are "unscripted". Mercer not fudging die rolls is part of the fan cred as well.
But like I said above, CR being #unscripted does not means what its fans think it means!
The players are willingly walking through a crafted Adventure Path. They refer to themselves as "The Cast". They are very much playing a role as their PC's during the "game".
These are all trained improv actors who can infer what direction is required of them as Mercer drops various adventures hooks and hints.
Again, it's textbook improve theatre, using Mercer's story cues as the central prop that they all bounce off of. (And actual improv works off of even less than that, so they are not being pressed too hard to fill their roles.)
And that is the Big Secret of Critical Role: They are all onboard to put on The Show. They are not going to do anything that would detract from the Story that Mercer nudges them into.
Is CR really "playing" D&D?
In my opinion; they are maintaining the minimum needed to make that claim.
But compared to your home sessions? It is an Artificial, Curated, and Staged "game" that very much tells the Story Mercer sets out to tell...
Quote from: Jaeger on March 06, 2024, 04:13:43 PM
Critical role is not "Scripted". Certainly not the way people think.
Once you understand what they are doing, it becomes obvious why explicitly "scripting" the show is just not needed.
Pulling from an older post of mine:
Critical Role is basically improv theater. It is a Reality TV Show about Playing DnD.
They all are trained improv actors explicitly putting on a show. Using an RPG as the central prop/premise that they all bounce off of.
This is, IMO, a more accurate description of Critical Role.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 06, 2024, 02:59:47 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 06, 2024, 12:36:14 PM
Quote from: Omega on March 06, 2024, 06:41:14 AM
I think we are already seeing a new problem raising its head and that I will term "The Colville Effect" as people take his bad GMing advice and problems erupt.
I've watched a few Colville vids. While I don't agree with everything he says, I haven't heard him give any terrible GM advice. Do you have any examples at hand?
Unlike Mercer, Colville comes across as a genuine RPGer. (And general TT enthusiast. Dude was streaming the Dune board game before the new movies popped out.)
Colville has gone down the road of RPGs as guided-story lately (he's definitely not a "sandbox" guy now, though he did originally have some pretty good videos on them). He's advocated for fudging, quantum ogres, and result over process (as in the mechanics and rolls shouldn't get in the way of the "moment of triumph" for the players) here and there, which I don't think is really good advice. His recent foray into RPG design is pretty clearly drawing from many of the conceits and mechanics of D&D 4e (many of which are the meta-mechanics) and seems unconcerned with simulation or fluff (granted, it's still in development, so that could come later). So it's hardly surprising that some folks on a mostly OSR-focused board might not feel that he's taking new DMs in a productive direction...
Ah, that's too bad. I did like his earlier stuff.
Change the speed to .5 and Colville sounds drunk. Its funny for a minute or two.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 06, 2024, 02:59:47 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 06, 2024, 12:36:14 PM
Quote from: Omega on March 06, 2024, 06:41:14 AM
I think we are already seeing a new problem raising its head and that I will term "The Colville Effect" as people take his bad GMing advice and problems erupt.
I've watched a few Colville vids. While I don't agree with everything he says, I haven't heard him give any terrible GM advice. Do you have any examples at hand?
Unlike Mercer, Colville comes across as a genuine RPGer. (And general TT enthusiast. Dude was streaming the Dune board game before the new movies popped out.)
Colville has gone down the road of RPGs as guided-story lately (he's definitely not a "sandbox" guy now, though he did originally have some pretty good videos on them). He's advocated for fudging, quantum ogres, and result over process (as in the mechanics and rolls shouldn't get in the way of the "moment of triumph" for the players) here and there, which I don't think is really good advice. His recent foray into RPG design is pretty clearly drawing from many of the conceits and mechanics of D&D 4e (many of which are the meta-mechanics) and seems unconcerned with simulation or fluff (granted, it's still in development, so that could come later). So it's hardly surprising that some folks on a mostly OSR-focused board might not feel that he's taking new DMs in a productive direction...
After the first few sessions of his Chain of Acheron campaign, the players engaged in a sandbox setting with their own goals and chose their own mercenary jobs. A lot of the second half of that campaign were the players choosing how to interact with the setting. As for fudging die rolls, I only remember him really only harping on fudging in one case, which is when the DM screws up (such as throwing the players in a situation they would never have even a chance of succeeding)... he did state that it's only if it's his fault; if the player makes a bad choice or acts stupid, we'll, the die decide their fate. Unlike a lot of Mercer-types, Colville isn't against killing his players' characters.
Quote from: Jaeger on March 06, 2024, 04:13:43 PM
And that is the Big Secret of Critical Role: They are all onboard to put on The Show. They are not going to do anything that would detract from the Story that Mercer nudges them into.
This is really the same as countless Paizo adventure path home games. The social contract is that the players follow the plot. So certainly the audience is unlikely to see a problem. If anything I get the impression they'd prefer even tighter plotting and more plot protection for the CR PCs.
Good post BTW, you explained very well how the CR cast are very much "putting on a show" but through improv techniques not scripting. I think a lot of CR's success is the cast's successful Improv of the OOC side, the 'playing themselves' as endearing D&D nerds.
Quote from: Teodrik on March 06, 2024, 12:05:11 PM
I don't want to rant but this thread made me think of my own encounter with a CR-fan DM.
I was pretty apathetic about CR and found it quite cringe, but nothing I really cared about. A couple of years ago me and a player from my group were invited to play in a campaign by a friend-of a-friend who wanted to try to start DMing 5e. And the DM and the rest of the group were CR-hobby-tourists. There was a complete culture-chock for sure. The DM seemed taken completely by surprise by us playing the game, exploring the dungeon, fighting tactically to beat enemies.
The DM had an self-insert cringe oh-so-funny-chaotic-rogue in the party to lead us and show how bad our characters where (like give heavy penalties to players trying to do the same basic actions as snowflake DM insert). No real story was presented or any clear objective were layed out for us other than completing a generic dungeon. But still it was obvious the DM tried extremely hard to make us emulate CR thropes like "wohoo-high-five-critical hit!" and would fugde rolls against boss enemies so the *scene* would play out as "intended".
It was a very odd and not very joyful experience for us, but we tried our best giving some very mild friendly suggestions about DMing and explaining how a conventional game of D&D actually plays after the game. The DM would retort in talking points that D&D was just a make-belive drama that doesn't need to follow any rules or should be like a freeform improv theater. I suggested, mildly, that maybe another roleplaying game like Fate Accelerated would fit better for the type of game DM was after. But nope, that's not what CR plays.
The DM lost interest and dropped D&D and roleplaying completely after one more half-hearted attempt to get a game going.
And that is my anecdotal tale of my encounter with the Mercer-effect.
Damn. That sounds about right for what the effect does.
Quote from: S'mon on March 06, 2024, 03:23:41 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 06, 2024, 02:59:47 PM
Colville has gone down the road of RPGs as guided-story lately (he's definitely not a "sandbox" guy now, though he did originally have some pretty good videos on them). He's advocated for fudging, quantum ogres, and result over process
I did notice he seemed to have changed, his early stuff was pretty good.
Sounds as if he betrayed his real beliefs in favor of what would get more audience.
Quote from: Jaeger on March 06, 2024, 04:13:43 PM
Critical role is not "Scripted". Certainly not the way people think.
Once you understand what they are doing, it becomes obvious why explicitly "scripting" the show is just not needed.
Pulling from an older post of mine:
Critical Role is basically improv theater. It is a Reality TV Show about Playing DnD.
They all are trained improv actors explicitly putting on a show. Using an RPG as the central prop/premise that they all bounce off of.
Big hint: The Players refer to themselves as "The Cast"... Mercer doesn't need to "script" anything because they are all buying into the central premise of the show.
Mercer's GM "skills" are wildly overblown due to the players being there specifically to make things as smooth as possible for him. There is no "Fuck this. Let's go be pirates!" from the players critical role "Cast"...
He is basically leading them down a guided Adventure Path; with every branch more or less plotted out ahead of time. And they happily comply each step of the way.
For Kicks I listened to part of an episode where Mercer let a PC die: (To much wailing and gnashing of teeth...)
Campaign 2 Ep 26 (The one where Mercer actually kills a PC)
I skipped to the last part, and I heard some rather interesting stuff when I just wanted to see their reaction when the PC bought it...
At 3:23:30 - Mercer pulls out a terrain map for their ambush fight:
A player proves his own cluelessness and says: "You can't know that...No way you could..."
Mercer says: "I have multiple maps prepared depending on where things happen."
I can only surmise that the clueless player is so used to "playing D&D" on Adventure Path rails that he doesn't even realize that he is riding them...
At 3:24:10 - Another player informs the clueless one: "He did move 4 to 5 maps into the building today." Then referring to a room in the CR building: "... no Cast allowed in here."
At 3:25:03 - Mercer breaks out the prepped map and says: "This scenario that you've found..."
Just from this brief exchange, we are able to see how things really work:
1- CR does make an effort to conceal details of the AP/Episode from the players. IMHO this is important for them to maintain their credibility with their fans for being "unscripted".
But being #unscripted just doesn't matter.
Because:
2- Mercer is clearly running a Guided Adventure Path. Yes there are 'branches', but it is clear from the exchange shown that they are usually accounted for well in advance.
3- The fact that the group walked straight into his prep proves that they are happily following along with the overall intended "plot" of the AP in front of them. (Clueless player aside. But in his defense; He clearly knows no other way to "play" D&D.)
All AP roads lead to Mercer's storytelling Rome. Mercer rarely, has to 'wing it' in reaction to the PC's actions.
Props to Mercer for letting the dice fall where they may, and actually killing the PC. But it is clear from the Players reactions, and some of the commentary at the end of the show: That that PC death was a literal fluke of the dice and circumstances, and was not viewed as something "on the table" in the typical CR combat...
Despite the fact that the CR team has been playing D&D for years, they still get razzed periodically for their lack of rules knowledge. What these commentators don't understand is that these players have been selected for their ability to play their PC's in-character whist following along with Mercer's AP campaigns.
So no. The CR players are not told what has been plotted out for them ahead of time. This is very important so that they are able to keep up credibility with their fans, and prove to potential naysayers that they are "unscripted". Mercer not fudging die rolls is part of the fan cred as well.
But like I said above, CR being #unscripted does not means what its fans think it means!
The players are willingly walking through a crafted Adventure Path. They refer to themselves as "The Cast". They are very much playing a role as their PC's during the "game".
These are all trained improv actors who can infer what direction is required of them as Mercer drops various adventures hooks and hints.
Again, it's textbook improve theatre, using Mercer's story cues as the central prop that they all bounce off of. (And actual improv works off of even less than that, so they are not being pressed too hard to fill their roles.)
And that is the Big Secret of Critical Role: They are all onboard to put on The Show. They are not going to do anything that would detract from the Story that Mercer nudges them into.
Is CR really "playing" D&D?
In my opinion; they are maintaining the minimum needed to make that claim.
But compared to your home sessions? It is an Artificial, Curated, and Staged "game" that very much tells the Story Mercer sets out to tell...
How to write a very long post telling me you haven't watched the livestream.
I never understood the fascination and popularity of Critical Role.
It always seems like:
1. a dumbed-down version of RPGs
2. railroaded BS
3. nowhere near a true representation of RPGs
..and yet we have people who've played for years and LOVE the show.
Unfortunately, we now have a certain amount of new gamers that come into the hobby and truly think what Mercer and his group do IS what RPGs are.
Well, they'll even learn or leave.
Personally, since many of them think Mercer and Critical role is the "bee's knees", the sooner they leave the better.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 06, 2024, 12:36:14 PM
Quote from: Omega on March 06, 2024, 06:41:14 AM
I think we are already seeing a new problem raising its head and that I will term "The Colville Effect" as people take his bad GMing advice and problems erupt.
I've watched a few Colville vids. While I don't agree with everything he says, I haven't heard him give any terrible GM advice. Do you have any examples at hand?
Unlike Mercer, Colville comes across as a genuine RPGer. (And general TT enthusiast. Dude was streaming the Dune board game before the new movies popped out.)
To me he increasingly comes across as a storygamer with the usual storygamer problems. Railroading "for the story", cheating the dice "for the story". One-upping the players with his pet NPCs "for the story". I eventually just stopped watching. His sessions sound stifling.
Quote from: S'mon on March 06, 2024, 03:23:41 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 06, 2024, 02:59:47 PM
Colville has gone down the road of RPGs as guided-story lately (he's definitely not a "sandbox" guy now, though he did originally have some pretty good videos on them). He's advocated for fudging, quantum ogres, and result over process
I did notice he seemed to have changed, his early stuff was pretty good.
That was my impression too. But then he starts pushing railroading and all the other stuff and just, no. And people are now suggesting him for how to learn to DM. Dear god its going to be a clusterfuck when those DMs hit their stride.
Quote from: Jaeger on March 06, 2024, 04:13:43 PM
Critical role is not "Scripted". Certainly not the way people think.
I suspect is is scripted. Just not in the way people think. And certainly not as much as people think.
I suspect that the players are told some of the upcoming story beats so they have some jokes or reactions ready. But the rest is just good improv as you suggest.
Quote from: blackstone on March 07, 2024, 10:40:42 AM
I never understood the fascination and popularity of Critical Role.
It always seems like:
1. a dumbed-down version of RPGs
2. railroaded BS
3. nowhere near a true representation of RPGs
..and yet we have people who've played for years and LOVE the show.
Unfortunately, we now have a certain amount of new gamers that come into the hobby and truly think what Mercer and his group do IS what RPGs are.
Well, they'll even learn or leave.
Personally, since many of them think Mercer and Critical role is the "bee's knees", the sooner they leave the better.
Greetings!
Damn right, my friend!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 07, 2024, 04:44:02 AM
Sounds as if he betrayed his real beliefs in favor of what would get more audience.
I don't think he's been the same since Covid(?). He seems unwell.
Quote from: S'mon on March 07, 2024, 02:09:19 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 07, 2024, 04:44:02 AM
Sounds as if he betrayed his real beliefs in favor of what would get more audience.
I don't think he's been the same since Covid(?). He seems unwell.
He's probably up to date on all of his boosters. He looks sickly. By now his balls have probably shriveled up to raisins. Of course he could be putting on all the make up and nail polish to play to the left to attempt to increase ratings. My understanding the current season is sucking. Campaign 2 was breaking 2M and Campaign 3 looks to be around 750K, so that's a decline of 62.5% for their main channel, so yes that would make a content provider a wee bit nervous don't cha think. I'm betting if campaign 3 drops down to 500K we'll see Matt in a pink wig and talk about his transition while the girls will open up their Critical Role Only fans and sell their used dice for only $10 a dice.
Quote from: Jaeger on March 06, 2024, 04:13:43 PM
The players are willingly walking through a crafted Adventure Path. They refer to themselves as "The Cast". They are very much playing a role as their PC's during the "game".
These are all trained improv actors who can infer what direction is required of them as Mercer drops various adventures hooks and hints.
Again, it's textbook improve theatre, using Mercer's story cues as the central prop that they all bounce off of. (And actual improv works off of even less than that, so they are not being pressed too hard to fill their roles.)
And that is the Big Secret of Critical Role: They are all onboard to put on The Show. They are not going to do anything that would detract from the Story that Mercer nudges them into.
Is CR really "playing" D&D?
In my opinion; they are maintaining the minimum needed to make that claim.
But compared to your home sessions? It is an Artificial, Curated, and Staged "game" that very much tells the Story Mercer sets out to tell...
Yes I think this is pretty close to how they're doing it. And it's what I mean when I say it's not scripted but improved. I don't think it's the minimum needed to make that claim though - a surprisingly large number of groups are willingly not upsetting the apple cart in going the direction the DM hints they should go - not necessarily for the same reasons CR is doing it but with similar results. It's a legit way to play D&D and can be plenty fun. Most home games that do it are simply being kind to an overworked DM who can't prep enough for instance. That's not what CR is about.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 07, 2024, 04:44:41 AM
How to write a very long post telling me you haven't watched the livestream.
I have not watched the livestream, so I apologize if my responses were redundant or not responding to good points you made or something. I plan to, just can't right now.
Quote from: S'mon on March 07, 2024, 01:44:24 AM
Quote from: Jaeger on March 06, 2024, 04:13:43 PM
And that is the Big Secret of Critical Role: They are all onboard to put on The Show. They are not going to do anything that would detract from the Story that Mercer nudges them into.
This is really the same as countless Paizo adventure path home games. The social contract is that the players follow the plot. So certainly the audience is unlikely to see a problem. If anything I get the impression they'd prefer even tighter plotting and more plot protection for the CR PCs.
Good post BTW, you explained very well how the CR cast are very much "putting on a show" but through improv techniques not scripting. I think a lot of CR's success is the cast's successful Improv of the OOC side, the 'playing themselves' as endearing D&D nerds.
Yes, agreed it's mostly what a lot of adventure paths involve. Some have more freedom than others. I know a lot of people here look down on adventure paths as somehow not D&D (even though they definitely are, and I played adventure paths in the 80s for AD&D they were just called a series of modules). I find them to be plenty fun.
Quote from: S'mon on March 07, 2024, 02:09:19 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 07, 2024, 04:44:02 AM
Sounds as if he betrayed his real beliefs in favor of what would get more audience.
I don't think he's been the same since Covid(?). He seems unwell.
That's an interesting observation. Makes some sense. A lot of people I know who used to be more outgoing are more shut-in these days, and weirder, since Covid.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on March 06, 2024, 01:26:36 PM
Don't worry, Matt will come out as trans and Marsha will stay with her girlfriend in support of her "transition" as a lesbian couple.
There was a time where I'd mock you for being ridiculous.
Was.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on March 07, 2024, 03:26:28 PM
Quote from: S'mon on March 07, 2024, 02:09:19 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 07, 2024, 04:44:02 AM
Sounds as if he betrayed his real beliefs in favor of what would get more audience.
I don't think he's been the same since Covid(?). He seems unwell.
He's probably up to date on all of his boosters. He looks sickly. By now his balls have probably shriveled up to raisins. Of course he could be putting on all the make up and nail polish to play to the left to attempt to increase ratings. My understanding the current season is sucking. Campaign 2 was breaking 2M and Campaign 3 looks to be around 750K, so that's a decline of 62.5% for their main channel, so yes that would make a content provider a wee bit nervous don't cha think. I'm betting if campaign 3 drops down to 500K we'll see Matt in a pink wig and talk about his transition while the girls will open up their Critical Role Only fans and sell their used dice for only $10 a dice.
Talking about Colville, the other Matt. :)
Quote from: blackstone on March 07, 2024, 10:40:42 AM..and yet we have people who've played for years and LOVE the show.
I'd put money on the types of RPG gamers that enjoy Critical Role, enjoying Soap Operas, house flipper shows, and other mindless pap.
Quote from: Grognard GM on March 07, 2024, 06:57:10 PM
Quote from: blackstone on March 07, 2024, 10:40:42 AM..and yet we have people who've played for years and LOVE the show.
I'd put money on the types of RPG gamers that enjoy Critical Role, enjoying Soap Operas, house flipper shows, and other mindless pap.
Nothing wrong with mindless pap every once in a while
Quote from: Mistwell on March 07, 2024, 04:08:48 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 07, 2024, 04:44:41 AM
How to write a very long post telling me you haven't watched the livestream.
I have not watched the livestream, so I apologize if my responses were redundant or not responding to good points you made or something. I plan to, just can't right now.
Your analysis was very similar to mine.
Quote from: Grognard GM on March 07, 2024, 06:57:10 PM
Quote from: blackstone on March 07, 2024, 10:40:42 AM..and yet we have people who've played for years and LOVE the show.
I'd put money on the types of RPG gamers that enjoy Critical Role, enjoying Soap Operas, house flipper shows, and other mindless pap.
Undoubtedly. It's reality-tv fans.
I have a friend who is into Critical Role. She finds the show entertaining. But she is also an experienced gamer who knows the difference between the show and reality. And she doesn't engage in the Mercer effect.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 08, 2024, 04:53:26 AM
Quote from: Grognard GM on March 07, 2024, 06:57:10 PM
Quote from: blackstone on March 07, 2024, 10:40:42 AM..and yet we have people who've played for years and LOVE the show.
I'd put money on the types of RPG gamers that enjoy Critical Role, enjoying Soap Operas, house flipper shows, and other mindless pap.
Undoubtedly. It's reality-tv fans.
i.e. tourists.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 07, 2024, 04:51:44 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on March 06, 2024, 01:26:36 PM
Don't worry, Matt will come out as trans and Marsha will stay with her girlfriend in support of her "transition" as a lesbian couple.
There was a time where I'd mock you for being ridiculous.
Was.
Welcome to the club!
I was rather surprised when an comic book writer I know from back in the 90s relatively recently went trans. Did not see that coming at all. Especially since he was married when I knew him.
Quote from: Grognard GM on March 07, 2024, 06:57:10 PM
Quote from: blackstone on March 07, 2024, 10:40:42 AM..and yet we have people who've played for years and LOVE the show.
I'd put money on the types of RPG gamers that enjoy Critical Role, enjoying Soap Operas, house flipper shows, and other mindless pap.
Nah. It is more akin to listening to a radio play or audio book, or going to a stage play.
I can listen to say Zee Blashew recount an adventure and enjoy it alot. But watching CR for me is just... ugh more than it is ever interesting.
Quote from: Omega on March 09, 2024, 12:09:55 AM
I was rather surprised when an comic book writer I know from back in the 90s relatively recently went trans. Did not see that coming at all. Especially since he was married when I knew him.
Most (all?) late onset trans are highly heterosexual aspergery guys, so they tend to be married and come out as lesbians.
Quote from: S'mon on March 09, 2024, 10:44:51 AM
Most (all?) late onset trans are highly heterosexual aspergery guys, so they tend to be married and come out as lesbians.
So are they just LARPing?
Quote from: Omega on March 09, 2024, 12:09:55 AM
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 07, 2024, 04:51:44 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on March 06, 2024, 01:26:36 PM
Don't worry, Matt will come out as trans and Marsha will stay with her girlfriend in support of her "transition" as a lesbian couple.
There was a time where I'd mock you for being ridiculous.
Was.
Welcome to the club!
I was rather surprised when an comic book writer I know from back in the 90s relatively recently went trans. Did not see that coming at all. Especially since he was married when I knew him.
Keep in mind, Matt will do it to get more viewers, he will not be trans. I'm just waiting for it personally. Now if he larded himself up to 350 lbs, then I'd believe he's going trans. It seems like guys in their 40's lard up to that size there's a chance they'll lose their f'n minds and want to cut off their dicks see Jim Sterling for reference. I'm just hoping the CR crew is doing the leftard shit to sell, they have normies with them. That being written, it would be hilarious for Matt to cut off his dick and donate it to Marisha and they do a "very special episode of Critical Cuts and Stitch".
Quote from: Brad on March 09, 2024, 09:56:05 PM
Quote from: S'mon on March 09, 2024, 10:44:51 AM
Most (all?) late onset trans are highly heterosexual aspergery guys, so they tend to be married and come out as lesbians.
So are they just LARPing?
Given all the social advantages of the current DEI climate I suspect more than a few would do so just for the job security.
White men are first fired and last to be hired these days and the government doesn't like to give welfare to mothers and children with husbands... trans-lesbians have total job security.
If I were married with a family to support and working for some DEI corporation was the only way to make a living with my skillset, I'd openly declare I identify as a black lesbian just so any attempt to remove me turns into a lawsuit and dings the corp's DEI score (which is what guarantees their access to the funny money).
If I were a husband and father, my FIRST responsibility is the welfare of my wife and children. If I have to humiliate myself so they get to eat, then I will fall on that sword for them.
So, yeah, LARPing is actually a logical move in the present corporate environment unless you've got the acumen to work for yourself (which not everyone does).
In Germany, a new law will come into effect in November that will allow people to officially change their gender once a year. I don't know if there will be a limited number of genders to choose from or if one can just make something up. More than likely, it will simply be a division into male, female, and "diverse." I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of Gen Z will eventually be officially "diverse" because it offers them an advantage. One can always switch back to one's actual sex after retirement.
Quote from: Rhymer88 on March 11, 2024, 10:10:19 AM
In Germany, a new law will come into effect in November that will allow people to officially change their gender once a year. I don't know if there will be a limited number of genders to choose from or if one can just make something up. More than likely, it will simply be a division into male, female, and "diverse." I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of Gen Z will eventually be officially "diverse" because it offers them an advantage. One can always switch back to one's actual sex after retirement.
Well that's Germany, a land with a thousand problems and one solution "Diversity if our Strength". We are still fighting that fight in the US, we lost the ACLU to the cult, but America First so far has been suing companies for discrimination including Hasbro.
If you are interested in why Hasbro is a dirty sexist and racist company you can read America's First legal complaint below. I donated to them just for this and I pray they can maintain themselves on course and don't get ACLU'd or Project Veritas'd or now President Trump'd or Elon Musk'd. The lawfare on the left is in retard mode now in the States.
https://aflegal.org/america-first-legal-files-federal-civil-rights-complaints-against-americas-largest-toy-companies-for-illegal-racial-discrimination-and-promoting-a-radical-lgbt-agenda/
Quote from: Rhymer88 on March 11, 2024, 10:10:19 AM
In Germany, a new law will come into effect in November that will allow people to officially change their gender once a year. I don't know if there will be a limited number of genders to choose from or if one can just make something up. More than likely, it will simply be a division into male, female, and "diverse." I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of Gen Z will eventually be officially "diverse" because it offers them an advantage. One can always switch back to one's actual sex after retirement.
Kind of like 4E D&D (where you could train out of your race) for actual people.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 11, 2024, 01:05:25 PM
Kind of like 4E D&D (where you could train out of your race) for actual people.
Look. 4E has its issues, but making shit up about it doesn't help your case. It just makes you a liar.
You could retrain skills, exploits/spells, and feats; that's it. You couldn't even change your class, much less your race.*
4E died before the hard push towards wokeness launched so it never had the chance to get that sort of crap.
* GMs could let you change anything anytime, but that's not a 4E rules thing... that's an RPG thing.
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 11, 2024, 02:59:42 PM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 11, 2024, 01:05:25 PM
Kind of like 4E D&D (where you could train out of your race) for actual people.
Look. 4E has its issues, but making shit up about it doesn't help your case. It just makes you a liar.
You could retrain skills, exploits/spells, and feats; that's it. You couldn't even change your class, much less your race.*
4E died before the hard push towards wokeness launched so it never had the chance to get that sort of crap.
* GMs could let you change anything anytime, but that's not a 4E rules thing... that's an RPG thing.
The dusk elf raises his hand.
As I'm in Commiefornia, I have gamed with plenty of wanna-be actors, LARPers and improv peeps pre-Critical Role. Most of them were good RPGers, but most preferred "narrative RPGs" to old school for obvious reasons. AKA, actors love the spotlight and those RPGs are all about players jacking off each other.
However, those who were into old school RPGs were perfectly good players.
What I've heard from 5e GMs post-Critical Role has been exactly what Pundy has talked about repeatedly and WOW, what a nightmare...but I have yet to encounter a Critical Role addled fan in the OSR game scene.
No surprise to hear CR is losing its audience.
As the oh-so-dangerous Orange Hitler prophesied so very correctly: "Everything woke turns to shit".
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 11, 2024, 09:07:16 AM
Quote from: Brad on March 09, 2024, 09:56:05 PM
Quote from: S'mon on March 09, 2024, 10:44:51 AM
Most (all?) late onset trans are highly heterosexual aspergery guys, so they tend to be married and come out as lesbians.
So are they just LARPing?
Given all the social advantages of the current DEI climate I suspect more than a few would do so just for the job security.
White men are first fired and last to be hired these days and the government doesn't like to give welfare to mothers and children with husbands... trans-lesbians have total job security.
If I were married with a family to support and working for some DEI corporation was the only way to make a living with my skillset, I'd openly declare I identify as a black lesbian just so any attempt to remove me turns into a lawsuit and dings the corp's DEI score (which is what guarantees their access to the funny money).
If I were a husband and father, my FIRST responsibility is the welfare of my wife and children. If I have to humiliate myself so they get to eat, then I will fall on that sword for them.
So, yeah, LARPing is actually a logical move in the present corporate environment unless you've got the acumen to work for yourself (which not everyone does).
This post is off-topic. Do not make another political post off the topic of Mercer again.
Quote from: Rhymer88 on March 11, 2024, 10:10:19 AM
In Germany, a new law will come into effect in November that will allow people to officially change their gender once a year. I don't know if there will be a limited number of genders to choose from or if one can just make something up. More than likely, it will simply be a division into male, female, and "diverse." I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of Gen Z will eventually be officially "diverse" because it offers them an advantage. One can always switch back to one's actual sex after retirement.
This post is off topic. Do not make another political post off of the main topic again.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 11, 2024, 07:55:05 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 11, 2024, 02:59:42 PM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 11, 2024, 01:05:25 PM
Kind of like 4E D&D (where you could train out of your race) for actual people.
Look. 4E has its issues, but making shit up about it doesn't help your case. It just makes you a liar.
You could retrain skills, exploits/spells, and feats; that's it. You couldn't even change your class, much less your race.*
4E died before the hard push towards wokeness launched so it never had the chance to get that sort of crap.
* GMs could let you change anything anytime, but that's not a 4E rules thing... that's an RPG thing.
The dusk elf raises his hand.
Not Mercer, but not political either;
4E Bloodline feats can only be taken at character creation and can't be retrained. That's the thing about exception based mechanics, they have exceptions to the general rules (like feat retraining).
But you go on kicking that dead horse that's been buried for a dozen years.
Mercer didn't damage the hobby. The damage came from unrealistic expectations from Critical Role viewers who wanted to live the Critical Role experience. That desire had no connection to the realities of the hobby. No real connection to reality at all.
It would be the same as if someone entered the Star Wars cosplay hobby. And expected to pick up a real lightsaber. Absolutely disconnected from reality.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on March 12, 2024, 09:38:04 AM
Mercer didn't damage the hobby. The damage came from unrealistic expectations from Critical Role viewers who wanted to live the Critical Role experience. That desire had no connection to the realities of the hobby. No real connection to reality at all.
It would be the same as if someone entered the Star Wars cosplay hobby. And expected to pick up a real lightsaber. Absolutely disconnected from reality.
Mostly agree at the start, though Mercer did nothing to discourage the expectation either. Then leaned into it with various game supplements marketed as helping to capture the experience.
Here's what I wrote on Dungeon Craft's channel about Mercer and his "cult"
Quoteas far as Mercer: that overrated hack is getting exactly what he deserves. Oh he can't deal with a group not following his railroad of bullshit? Boo fucking hoo. Cry me a river! He should try running a real gaming session. Oh wait...HE CAN'T because what he shows is not a real gaming session. His over-rated and over glorified channel of wannabes has done more harm to the RPG hobby than good. Now you have these "gaming tourists" who think that just because they watch Mercer's channel of crap, they think that's what dnd is...and they're all wrong.
link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGArPZ7E_sA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGArPZ7E_sA)
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 05, 2024, 04:19:38 AM
Quote from: Corolinth on March 04, 2024, 10:37:19 PM
I never watched an episode of Critical Role. There was some Amazon Prime TV show, and I watched the first episode, but it was dogshit and I passed.
I'm gonna go off on a limb here and say that Matt Mercer damaged the hobby by becoming popular enough that the grognards feel compelled to bitch about how he taught new players to Play The Game Wrong (tm). Frankly, I'm not convinced Matt Mercer did any more damage to the hobby than a bunch of goths sitting around wearing eyeliner, drinking clamato juice, and having a contest about who can be the most melodramatic twat at the table.
You know...
Swap the rainbow for the color black...
Swap stupid pretentious pronouns for stupid pretentious names...
I think I'm on to something here.
Well, the livestream went very well, and you can watch the replay to find out what my actual argument was.
Look, some of your videos are pretty good. I find some of your takes to be on-point. I like Meatball's cameos. But I don't have three and a half hours to spend on
anybody's opinion of Matt Mercer. The guy ain't that important.
Quote from: Corolinth on March 13, 2024, 12:29:17 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 05, 2024, 04:19:38 AM
Quote from: Corolinth on March 04, 2024, 10:37:19 PM
I never watched an episode of Critical Role. There was some Amazon Prime TV show, and I watched the first episode, but it was dogshit and I passed.
I'm gonna go off on a limb here and say that Matt Mercer damaged the hobby by becoming popular enough that the grognards feel compelled to bitch about how he taught new players to Play The Game Wrong (tm). Frankly, I'm not convinced Matt Mercer did any more damage to the hobby than a bunch of goths sitting around wearing eyeliner, drinking clamato juice, and having a contest about who can be the most melodramatic twat at the table.
You know...
Swap the rainbow for the color black...
Swap stupid pretentious pronouns for stupid pretentious names...
I think I'm on to something here.
Well, the livestream went very well, and you can watch the replay to find out what my actual argument was.
Look, some of your videos are pretty good. I find some of your takes to be on-point. I like Meatball's cameos. But I don't have three and a half hours to spend on anybody's opinion of Matt Mercer. The guy ain't that important.
Argue for your limitations and you will have them. But it means you don't really have the qualifications to post on this thread, which is about the video.