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Fantastic Monotheism

Started by PencilBoy99, November 05, 2016, 03:00:37 PM

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HappyDaze

Does monotheism in a game setting have be absolute (there is only one god in the setting), or can it be that the core lands of the setting only accept one god and other gods are found in other lands?

Spinachcat

Absolutely. The human empire in my OD&D campaign has an official goddess, and her temples are the only lawful religion. There are two rival cults, but they have no temples and had operated in nigh-secrecy for centuries...until the current young usurper king announced his conversion the animal cult and swept his cult into power as part of his coup.

Christopher Brady

But...  Christianity isn't Monotheistic.  It's Duo-theistic.  It has two deity level figures, God rules Heaven, and the Devil, or Satan, rules Hell.  And when one dies, so it's said, your soul goes to one of those two places.  It's more accepted to worship one of the two, but that doesn't make it monotheistic in any sense of the word, beyond the superficial.

So I have to repeat what HappyDaze posted:

Quote from: HappyDaze;930876Does monotheism in a game setting have be absolute (there is only one god in the setting), or can it be that the core lands of the setting only accept one god and other gods are found in other lands?
"And now, my friends, a Dragon\'s toast!  To life\'s little blessings:  wars, plagues and all forms of evil.  Their presence keeps us alert --- and their absence makes us grateful." -T.A. Barron[/SIZE]

crkrueger

#18
Quote from: Christopher Brady;931260But...  Christianity isn't Monotheistic.  It's Duo-theistic.  It has two deity level figures, God rules Heaven, and the Devil, or Satan, rules Hell.  And when one dies, so it's said, your soul goes to one of those two places.  It's more accepted to worship one of the two, but that doesn't make it monotheistic in any sense of the word, beyond the superficial.

{Casts Summon on Armchair Gamer and Gronan.}

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The Butcher

#19
Quote from: Christopher Brady;931260But...  Christianity isn't Monotheistic.  It's Duo-theistic.  It has two deity level figures, God rules Heaven, and the Devil, or Satan, rules Hell.

Wait, what?


jhkim

Quote from: Christopher Brady;931260But...  Christianity isn't Monotheistic.  It's Duo-theistic.  It has two deity level figures, God rules Heaven, and the Devil, or Satan, rules Hell.  And when one dies, so it's said, your soul goes to one of those two places.  It's more accepted to worship one of the two, but that doesn't make it monotheistic in any sense of the word, beyond the superficial.
In nearly all of the major sects of Christianity, God is omniscient and omnipotent - and the Devil is a lesser figure that is a part of the world the God created. God allows the Devil to exist because the existence of evil is a part of His plan. There are some sects which portray a more dualist view such as Catharism and other gnostic offshoots, but they're mostly a historical footnote. Someone can selectively take various Bible quotes that imply that God is not omnipotent, but that's not how it is interpreted by any of the major churches.

Trond

The Artesia RPG is remarkably rich as far as religions go, including at least one monotheistic religion (the Cult of Islik) which is subdivided into the Sun Court and Phoenix Court. It can be compared to how Christianity and Islam are subdivided into subgroups that often fight each other.

Armchair Gamer

Quote from: CRKrueger;931326{Casts Summon on Armchair Gamer and Gronan.}

  Sorry about the wait; I think you built that Summon with the Limitations Summoned Creature Must Arrive Under Own Power (-1/2) and Summoned Creature May Delay Performance of Task Until It Judges It Has Time to Do It Properly (-3/4). :)

   jhkim's hit the key points, but let's unpack this a little more.


Quote from: Christopher Brady;931260But...  Christianity isn't Monotheistic.  It's Duo-theistic.  It has two deity level figures, God rules Heaven,

  And Earth. And Hell. For is it not written, "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father"? (Phillipains 2:10-11)

Quoteand the Devil, or Satan, rules Hell.

   Only insofar as the head of a jailyard gang could be said to 'rule' the prison. The Devil is potent, yet still a creature, and can only do what God permits him to do.
   Fundamentally, God IS, and the Devil is just one of the many things God has made--and was made good like all things that God made, but has made himself evil. God could perfectly well exist without the Devil (or anything else), but the Devil (and everything else) couldn't exist without God holding him in existence.

QuoteAnd when one dies, so it's said, your soul goes to one of those two places.

  After the judgement, which is reserved solely to God--if the Devil has any role, tradition suggests it's in bringing accusations against the newly deceased soul. The Devil can do nothing to force the destiny of men; he can suggest, tempt, and terrify, but the idea of 'stealing' or 'trapping' the soul is so much silliness. Even demonic possession does not of itself affect the soul, although it's usually indicative of grave spiritual problems.

QuoteIt's more accepted to worship one of the two, but that doesn't make it monotheistic in any sense of the word, beyond the superficial.

   This is so baffling I'm not sure what to say to it. I think we'd need to delve into definitions of monotheism and of what it means to be a 'god', which is a very equivocal term. But as jhkim pointed out, beyond a few gravely heretical sects like the Albigensians/Cathars and their ilk, dualism is not a part of Christian doctrine. It can often look dualistic in certain presentations, but those appearances vanish like fog in the morning once you shed some more light on them.

Christopher Brady

Oh for...  So, the fact that both parties in the Christian religion are not at parity in terms of Godly Power, it somehow makes HappyDaze's question moot?

So, the fact that Odin (In Norse Mythology), Zeus (In the Greek) are considered the 'most powerful' of their respective Pantheon, by all your reasoning means that they too are monotheistic?  There are also some rather large sects of Christianity (which maybe we should be defining which ones we're talking about as the 'main' one?) that have people effectively worshiping 'Angels' or 'Saints', effectively Demigods to lesser Gods within the various belief systems.

I will repeat HappyDaze's query again, but without quotations:

Does monotheism in a game setting have be absolute (there is only one god in the setting), or can it be that the core lands of the setting only accept one god and other gods are found in other lands?

Now that I think on it, would it be acceptable if the setting had several different sects of the same religion, but different enough to cause strife?
"And now, my friends, a Dragon\'s toast!  To life\'s little blessings:  wars, plagues and all forms of evil.  Their presence keeps us alert --- and their absence makes us grateful." -T.A. Barron[/SIZE]

Armchair Gamer

If you're going to make broad and provocative assertions about a religion that several board members take seriously, you can expect pushback. :)

As for HappyDaze's question, it depends on the setting and cosmology, really. Is the universe a monotheistic one, how obviously do God and his servants intervene in religious disputes, how much room is there for mortal error and infernal deception, etc

jhkim

Quote from: Christopher Brady;931382So, the fact that Odin (In Norse Mythology), Zeus (In the Greek) are considered the 'most powerful' of their respective Pantheon, by all your reasoning means that they too are monotheistic?  There are also some rather large sects of Christianity (which maybe we should be defining which ones we're talking about as the 'main' one?) that have people effectively worshiping 'Angels' or 'Saints', effectively Demigods to lesser Gods within the various belief systems.
There is a major philosophical difference between a pantheon which has one strongest god like Zeus, as compared to monotheistic religions where there is one omnipotent God who has various other beings like saints, angels, devils, and others as part of his world.

From a monotheist perspective, it is possible for there to be beings like angels and devils - or even things like fairies, demigods or pagan gods within the world. All of them are a part of the one God's creation. However, where the monotheist and the polytheist will disagree is that the monotheist sees their one god as a class apart from things like devils. There is only room for one God because only one being can be omnipotent. The polytheist will disagree that there is one omnipotent being.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;931382I will repeat HappyDaze's query again, but without quotations:

Does monotheism in a game setting have be absolute (there is only one god in the setting), or can it be that the core lands of the setting only accept one god and other gods are found in other lands?

Now that I think on it, would it be acceptable if the setting had several different sects of the same religion, but different enough to cause strife?

A fantasy world can have all different sorts of belief systems, but there can be an absolute truth defined by the GM. If there are other gods in other lands that are equal to the monotheists' one true God - then the monotheists are factually wrong. If the monotheists are right, then the gods in other lands are creations of their one true God for his/her own purposes.

HappyDaze

Quote from: jhkim;931406A fantasy world can have all different sorts of belief systems, but there can be an absolute truth defined by the GM. If there are other gods in other lands that are equal to the monotheists' one true God - then the monotheists are factually wrong. If the monotheists are right, then the gods in other lands are creations of their one true God for his/her own purposes.

How about Forgotten Realms? Sure there are lots of gods, but there is only one Overgod (Lord Ao) and even he has a "Master" that is undefined (but is implied to be either "the DM" or Ed Greenwood, depending on who you ask)?

Also, what about a setting that has no true Creator (or no verified Creator), just powerful beings that demand to be referred to as gods (and offer a divine magic pay-to-play incentive plan).

The Butcher

Monotheism is not the same as kathenotheism (hierarchical polytheism).

In Christianity (and, I guess, Judaism and Islam) transcendent divinity is the sole province of God. Saints and angels may be objects of devotion but never worship. (inb4 "Catholics are polytheists" bullshit)

Odin and Zeus may be head honchos but there's plenty of worship to go around the whole pantheon. The divinity of their fellow gods was integral to their faiths' view of the Universe.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Christopher Brady;931260But...  Christianity isn't Monotheistic.  It's Duo-theistic.  It has two deity level figures, God rules Heaven, and the Devil, or Satan, rules Hell.  And when one dies, so it's said, your soul goes to one of those two places.  It's more accepted to worship one of the two, but that doesn't make it monotheistic in any sense of the word, beyond the superficial.

So I have to repeat what HappyDaze posted:

No, you're thinking of Zoroastrianism or Manicheism. Standard Christianity has one single all-powerful god. Satan is a rebellious fallen angel, created by that god, which has no true power except that god in his bizzaro plan for the universe has allowed it so.
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