What detailed examples of fantasy versions of Judeo/Christian/Muslim monotheism. The only examples I can think of are:
Usires Aedeion (Tad Williams "Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn")
Church of the Unconquered Sun (Dark Albion)
Er, how do you mean?
Tolkien's Middle Earth god structure is sort of a Christianity analog.
So is C.S. Lewis' in Narnia.
Many fantasy religions by people from Christian-origin countries end up putting some elements of Christianity in their religions. Some far more than others, of course.
Karse in Lackey's Valdemar series is a thinly veiled Middle Eastern Muslim nation.
ASoIaF/GoT's "Light of the Seven" (or "the Seven who are One" in the earlier books) might not quite qualify as "monotheism" (more of a Crystal Dragon Jesus (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrystalDragonJesus) thing, I'd say) but if Tolkien's cosmology merits consideration, I suppose this does too.
I will look into the Valdemar and game of thrones thing. Thanks guys!
The religions of Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun and Book of the Long Sun would qualify, I think.
Quote from: PencilBoy99;928958I will look into the Valdemar
Save yourself the time. I mentioned it mostly as an exception-that-proves-the-rule thing. Like most fantasy authors Lackey doesn't believe in religion outside of a vaguely animistic spiritual New Age-y kind of thing, and she never goes into much detail about Karse's religion beyond "they treat women badly and are Evil".
It seems to me that when monotheism shows up in a fantasy world it's usually being inherited from whatever portion of the real world it's based on; so fantasy medieval Europe gets a medieval church.
I can see several reasons why there wouldn't a lot of other good examples in outright fantasy world building: authors risk offending someone who is religious by putting (what appears to be) their real world religion in a work of fantasy; they risk offending someone who isn't religious by putting in (what appears to be) preaching a real world religion, unless the point is Christian allegory like Narnia; monotheism doesn't seem that fantastic given how big Christianity and Islam are in the real world; religion of a real world sort seems out of place in a fantasy world (whatever the cosmology, I can't recall a lot of religious practices in Middle Earth); monotheism with an active involved god often doesn't work well for fantasy, since they will just set everything right, so we end up with pantheons or at least a good versus evil Manichaeism.
Quote from: The Butcher;928942ASoIaF/GoT's "Light of the Seven" (or "the Seven who are One" in the earlier books) might not quite qualify as "monotheism" (more of a Crystal Dragon Jesus (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrystalDragonJesus) thing, I'd say) but if Tolkien's cosmology merits consideration, I suppose this does too.
It has several parallels, though also differences. So, it seems to me, does the "Lord of Light", who like Christianity is touted as the "one true god", as people doing trial by combat, burning people at the stake, and other similarities. It's fairly interesting that GoT presents multiple rival religions which each have different Christian similarities mixed with changes, and then several other faiths, and all of their faiths are questioned yet seem to be at least partly valid.
It was something I was very excited about doing, with Dark Albion, because having a monotheistic religion is ridiculously rare for fantasy settings allegedly based on Medieval Europe.
In Fading Suns, there was the church of the Pancreator.
In 7th Sea, they have Catholic, Protestant, and Muslim analogues.
Dune has the Orange Catholic Bible that tries to unify religions in one.
There seem to be a lot of sci-fi monotheisms that are supposed to be what Abrahamic religions eventually turn into in the future and a lot of fantasy ones that are just Christianity or Islam with the serial numbers filed off. It's rare to see a fictional monotheism that isn't supposed to be a descendant of or substitute for Christianity. I'm sure I've seen one before but it's not coming to mind.
Quote from: RPGPundit;930346having a monotheistic religion is ridiculously rare for fantasy settings allegedly based on Medieval Europe.
Does that mean we Christians can scream about "cultural appropriation" and "erasure?" ;) :D
Seriously, D&D worlds that use the D&D defaults should probably look more like Nehwon or the world of Melnibone than medieval Europe or even Middle Earth. (Probably more like the Hyborian Age as well, but I haven't read enough Conan to be confident of that.)
Quote from: RPGPundit;930346It was something I was very excited about doing, with Dark Albion, because having a monotheistic religion is ridiculously rare for fantasy settings allegedly based on Medieval Europe.
Medieval Europe is odd in that you can have monotheism with a heavy dose of polytheism just by using the Cults of the Saints. So, each Saint offers a single spell to those who venerate the Saint, as a Patron Saint, through pilgrimages or just because the Saint appeared to you in a vision. That way, you get the best of both worlds, a single religion with a lot of magical variety.
Some cults, such as Saint Brigid, cross the boundary between pagan and Christian, so some pagans worship the goddess Brigid and some Christians venerate Saint Brigid and they get similar magic from the association.
I had forgotten about the saint thing. Weren't some of the saints co-opted things from other religions.?
Guy Gavriel Kay (who likes to write fantasy versions of historical events and places) has several books that feature a Christianity analog. They're all great:
The Lions of Al-Rassan
Sailing to Sarantium
Lord of Emperors
The Last Light of the Sun
Does monotheism in a game setting have be absolute (there is only one god in the setting), or can it be that the core lands of the setting only accept one god and other gods are found in other lands?
Absolutely. The human empire in my OD&D campaign has an official goddess, and her temples are the only lawful religion. There are two rival cults, but they have no temples and had operated in nigh-secrecy for centuries...until the current young usurper king announced his conversion the animal cult and swept his cult into power as part of his coup.
But... Christianity isn't Monotheistic. It's Duo-theistic. It has two deity level figures, God rules Heaven, and the Devil, or Satan, rules Hell. And when one dies, so it's said, your soul goes to one of those two places. It's more accepted to worship one of the two, but that doesn't make it monotheistic in any sense of the word, beyond the superficial.
So I have to repeat what HappyDaze posted:
Quote from: HappyDaze;930876Does monotheism in a game setting have be absolute (there is only one god in the setting), or can it be that the core lands of the setting only accept one god and other gods are found in other lands?
Quote from: Christopher Brady;931260But... Christianity isn't Monotheistic. It's Duo-theistic. It has two deity level figures, God rules Heaven, and the Devil, or Satan, rules Hell. And when one dies, so it's said, your soul goes to one of those two places. It's more accepted to worship one of the two, but that doesn't make it monotheistic in any sense of the word, beyond the superficial.
{Casts Summon on Armchair Gamer and Gronan.}
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Quote from: Christopher Brady;931260But... Christianity isn't Monotheistic. It's Duo-theistic. It has two deity level figures, God rules Heaven, and the Devil, or Satan, rules Hell.
Wait,
what?
(http://www.stpeterslist.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Burke-Meme-4.png)
Quote from: Christopher Brady;931260But... Christianity isn't Monotheistic. It's Duo-theistic. It has two deity level figures, God rules Heaven, and the Devil, or Satan, rules Hell. And when one dies, so it's said, your soul goes to one of those two places. It's more accepted to worship one of the two, but that doesn't make it monotheistic in any sense of the word, beyond the superficial.
In nearly all of the major sects of Christianity, God is omniscient and omnipotent - and the Devil is a lesser figure that is a part of the world the God created. God allows the Devil to exist because the existence of evil is a part of His plan. There are some sects which portray a more dualist view such as Catharism and other gnostic offshoots, but they're mostly a historical footnote. Someone can selectively take various Bible quotes that imply that God is not omnipotent, but that's not how it is interpreted by any of the major churches.
The Artesia RPG is remarkably rich as far as religions go, including at least one monotheistic religion (the Cult of Islik) which is subdivided into the Sun Court and Phoenix Court. It can be compared to how Christianity and Islam are subdivided into subgroups that often fight each other.
Quote from: CRKrueger;931326{Casts Summon on Armchair Gamer and Gronan.}
Sorry about the wait; I think you built that Summon with the Limitations
Summoned Creature Must Arrive Under Own Power (-1/2) and
Summoned Creature May Delay Performance of Task Until It Judges It Has Time to Do It Properly (-3/4). :)
jhkim's hit the key points, but let's unpack this a little more.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;931260But... Christianity isn't Monotheistic. It's Duo-theistic. It has two deity level figures, God rules Heaven,
And Earth. And Hell. For is it not written, "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father"? (Phillipains 2:10-11)
Quoteand the Devil, or Satan, rules Hell.
Only insofar as the head of a jailyard gang could be said to 'rule' the prison. The Devil is potent, yet still a creature, and can only do what God permits him to do.
Fundamentally, God IS, and the Devil is just one of the many things God has made--and was made good like all things that God made, but has made himself evil. God could perfectly well exist without the Devil (or anything else), but the Devil (and everything else) couldn't exist without God holding him in existence.
QuoteAnd when one dies, so it's said, your soul goes to one of those two places.
After the judgement, which is reserved solely to God--if the Devil has any role, tradition suggests it's in bringing accusations against the newly deceased soul. The Devil can do nothing to force the destiny of men; he can suggest, tempt, and terrify, but the idea of 'stealing' or 'trapping' the soul is so much silliness. Even demonic possession does not of itself affect the soul, although it's usually indicative of grave spiritual problems.
QuoteIt's more accepted to worship one of the two, but that doesn't make it monotheistic in any sense of the word, beyond the superficial.
This is so baffling I'm not sure what to say to it. I think we'd need to delve into definitions of monotheism and of what it means to be a 'god', which is a very equivocal term. But as jhkim pointed out, beyond a few gravely heretical sects like the Albigensians/Cathars and their ilk, dualism is not a part of Christian doctrine. It can often
look dualistic in certain presentations, but those appearances vanish like fog in the morning once you shed some more light on them.
Oh for... So, the fact that both parties in the Christian religion are not at parity in terms of Godly Power, it somehow makes HappyDaze's question moot?
So, the fact that Odin (In Norse Mythology), Zeus (In the Greek) are considered the 'most powerful' of their respective Pantheon, by all your reasoning means that they too are monotheistic? There are also some rather large sects of Christianity (which maybe we should be defining which ones we're talking about as the 'main' one?) that have people effectively worshiping 'Angels' or 'Saints', effectively Demigods to lesser Gods within the various belief systems.
I will repeat HappyDaze's query again, but without quotations:
Does monotheism in a game setting have be absolute (there is only one god in the setting), or can it be that the core lands of the setting only accept one god and other gods are found in other lands?
Now that I think on it, would it be acceptable if the setting had several different sects of the same religion, but different enough to cause strife?
If you're going to make broad and provocative assertions about a religion that several board members take seriously, you can expect pushback. :)
As for HappyDaze's question, it depends on the setting and cosmology, really. Is the universe a monotheistic one, how obviously do God and his servants intervene in religious disputes, how much room is there for mortal error and infernal deception, etc
Quote from: Christopher Brady;931382So, the fact that Odin (In Norse Mythology), Zeus (In the Greek) are considered the 'most powerful' of their respective Pantheon, by all your reasoning means that they too are monotheistic? There are also some rather large sects of Christianity (which maybe we should be defining which ones we're talking about as the 'main' one?) that have people effectively worshiping 'Angels' or 'Saints', effectively Demigods to lesser Gods within the various belief systems.
There is a major philosophical difference between a pantheon which has one strongest god like Zeus, as compared to monotheistic religions where there is one omnipotent God who has various other beings like saints, angels, devils, and others as part of his world.
From a monotheist perspective, it is possible for there to be beings like angels and devils - or even things like fairies, demigods or pagan gods within the world. All of them are a part of the one God's creation. However, where the monotheist and the polytheist will disagree is that the monotheist sees their one god as a class apart from things like devils. There is only room for one God because only one being can be omnipotent. The polytheist will disagree that there is one omnipotent being.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;931382I will repeat HappyDaze's query again, but without quotations:
Does monotheism in a game setting have be absolute (there is only one god in the setting), or can it be that the core lands of the setting only accept one god and other gods are found in other lands?
Now that I think on it, would it be acceptable if the setting had several different sects of the same religion, but different enough to cause strife?
A fantasy world can have all different sorts of belief systems, but there can be an absolute truth defined by the GM. If there are other gods in other lands that are equal to the monotheists' one true God - then the monotheists are factually wrong. If the monotheists are right, then the gods in other lands are creations of their one true God for his/her own purposes.
Quote from: jhkim;931406A fantasy world can have all different sorts of belief systems, but there can be an absolute truth defined by the GM. If there are other gods in other lands that are equal to the monotheists' one true God - then the monotheists are factually wrong. If the monotheists are right, then the gods in other lands are creations of their one true God for his/her own purposes.
How about Forgotten Realms? Sure there are lots of gods, but there is only one Overgod (Lord Ao) and even he has a "Master" that is undefined (but is implied to be either "the DM" or Ed Greenwood, depending on who you ask)?
Also, what about a setting that has no true Creator (or no verified Creator), just powerful beings that demand to be referred to as gods (and offer a divine magic pay-to-play incentive plan).
Monotheism is not the same as kathenotheism (hierarchical polytheism).
In Christianity (and, I guess, Judaism and Islam) transcendent divinity is the sole province of God. Saints and angels may be objects of devotion but never worship. (inb4 "Catholics are polytheists" bullshit)
Odin and Zeus may be head honchos but there's plenty of worship to go around the whole pantheon. The divinity of their fellow gods was integral to their faiths' view of the Universe.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;931260But... Christianity isn't Monotheistic. It's Duo-theistic. It has two deity level figures, God rules Heaven, and the Devil, or Satan, rules Hell. And when one dies, so it's said, your soul goes to one of those two places. It's more accepted to worship one of the two, but that doesn't make it monotheistic in any sense of the word, beyond the superficial.
So I have to repeat what HappyDaze posted:
No, you're thinking of Zoroastrianism or Manicheism. Standard Christianity has one single all-powerful god. Satan is a rebellious fallen angel, created by that god, which has no true power except that god in his bizzaro plan for the universe has allowed it so.