Quote from: cranebump;1021273If there are wights, there are wight hunters, surely.

Haven't a clue about D&D wights, but if they are only harmed by magic or magical weapons, I would expect groups of wight-hunters aremed with magic and magical weapons to descend on anywhere even hinting at a wight infection.

The rules do not say the wights are under the command of the wight that created them.

So.

The PC waits for the new wights to arise, whereupon they turn on him and kill him and turn him into a wight, and then the wights scatter to the ends of the earth.

I really like all of these suggestions that are supported by the game logic and/or RAW.  I don't play OSR-type games at all so it's new to me and interesting to read.  

But what if they weren't?  Wouldn't a simple talk OOC do a better job overall of solving the problem?  Saying something like, "hey, you know, I don't feel comfortable with how this is heading 'cause I feel it would get out of control and frankly spoil my fun as GM.  Could you reassure me you'll not do that?"  

I mention this because I've been griefed before though with different games and often it was done following the RAW so couldn't be solved by referring to the rules.  

Anyway just my 2¢.

Quote from: cranebump;1021273If there are wights, there are wight hunters, surely.

They would be Great Wight Hunters.

Quote from: CausticJedi;1021353I really like all of these suggestions that are supported by the game logic and/or RAW.  I don't play OSR-type games at all so it's new to me and interesting to read.  

But what if they weren't?  Wouldn't a simple talk OOC do a better job overall of solving the problem?  Saying something like, "hey, you know, I don't feel comfortable with how this is heading 'cause I feel it would get out of control and frankly spoil my fun as GM.  Could you reassure me you'll not do that?"  

I mention this because I've been griefed before though with different games and often it was done following the RAW so couldn't be solved by referring to the rules.  

Anyway just my 2¢.

Well of course. Part of my dilemma is that the social contract of my game is that the gameworld is an organic outgrowth of the rules. As a matter of fact, that's why ACKS is currently my favorite system; it takes great pains to justify the zany OSR-world with a workable internal logic.

For my table, having this dialogue would be injurious to the fun we're all enjoying. It remains an option of last resort, just like altering the rules is an option.

Within the comfort and fun level of my table, many of the rulings described in this thread are within our acceptable parameters without needing to have this conversation. This makes them preferable options, though not strictly "better" ones.

Quote from: Bren;1021360They would be Great Wight Hunters.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2169[/ATTACH]

Problem solved

Quote from: Azraele;1021361Well of course. Part of my dilemma is that the social contract of my game is that the gameworld is an organic outgrowth of the rules. As a matter of fact, that's why ACKS is currently my favorite system; it takes great pains to justify the zany OSR-world with a workable internal logic.

For my table, having this dialogue would be injurious to the fun we're all enjoying. It remains an option of last resort, just like altering the rules is an option.

Within the comfort and fun level of my table, many of the rulings described in this thread are within our acceptable parameters without needing to have this conversation. This makes them preferable options, though not strictly "better" ones.

That's cool.  I wasn't sure because in my experience, the majority of time, communication doesn't really happen at the table or even away from.  As I said, all the in-game solutions are pretty interesting to read about and I'm glad you're able to find in-world options for a solution that everyone is happy with.

Quote from: CausticJedi;1021365That's cool.  I wasn't sure because in my experience, the majority of time, communication doesn't really happen at the table or even away from.  As I said, all the in-game solutions are pretty interesting to read about and I'm glad you're able to find in-world options for a solution that everyone is happy with.

Man, that sucks. My games always have a lot of chatter (and cheetos), so communication is pretty good. I'd be concerned if someone was sitting around my table quietly except when they did things in-game. Come on out of your shell, friend: there are cheetos here.

Quote from: CausticJedi;1021353I really like all of these suggestions that are supported by the game logic and/or RAW.  I don't play OSR-type games at all so it's new to me and interesting to read.  

But what if they weren't?  Wouldn't a simple talk OOC do a better job overall of solving the problem?  Saying something like, "hey, you know, I don't feel comfortable with how this is heading 'cause I feel it would get out of control and frankly spoil my fun as GM.  Could you reassure me you'll not do that?"  

I mention this because I've been griefed before though with different games and often it was done following the RAW so couldn't be solved by referring to the rules.

First off, yes anything can be handled by the referee sitting down with the group and hashing things out. But the players PoV will be generally as follows

QuoteSo you started a campaign saying you use a RPG RAW and now you don't want to use RAW because you don't like the result? I figured out a clever way of obtaining powers and you deny it to me? Why the hell do you had the death god give me the wight in the first place?

A player will likely be polite about it but I rarely seen a player like it.

Look I get it, but players really don't like referees changing rules midstream. It one of the few ways viewed as cheating on the referee part. Yes I realize that this seemingly contradicts the OSR mantra, your campaign, your rules, your rulings. The difference is that in this case a previous ruling is being contradicted for no reason other than the referee doesn't like the result.

There are plenty of time over the past decades where I didn't like the result of how the rule played but unless it was totally nonsensical, I wait until the next campaign to fix it. I have several things I don't like about how the rules work for my current Thursday campaign that I will be fixing for the next Majestic Wilderlands campaign. Most of them it how fast the PC level in relation to in-game time (not number of sessions played). But for now I will just live with the hand I was dealt.

My advice for Azraele is that if he didn't misread the rules for wights then find a way to make the wight apocalypse interesting. The best way to do think of how it would play out with him standing their watching. Focus on the people (NPCs) involved. Use more of his limited verbal bandwidth and session time to push those character to the forefront. Describe how not only the soldier and men of the town are getting hammered but women and children. You don't have to get all X rated but enough of the a dose may make the players think "Holy shit what I am doing?".

Also this pattern of thought will lead to ideas on how the inhabitants of the setting would handle the villain PCs. Don't latch on the first possibility but thing through the alternative and pick the one that most interesting.

If the other PCs start complaining remind them that they are their as their character. That they have agency, that one of their own now has turned Dark Lord. And if they have a problem with that well... it time to get to work. If they are onboard with helping out the PC Dark Lord, then again figure out how to make it an interesting and challenging experience.

Then next time tell your group fuck the rules. This is my setting, this is how it works and if RAW supports that we are using it, if not it not happening.Unless otherwise stated assume that it works like the High Middle Ages in Western Europe (or the closest historical equivalent).

Quote from: Azraele;1021361Well of course. Part of my dilemma is that the social contract of my game is that the gameworld is an organic outgrowth of the rules. As a matter of fact, that's why ACKS is currently my favorite system; it takes great pains to justify the zany OSR-world with a workable internal logic.

Sorry man, but fuck the rules even if it is the otherwise excellent ACKS. What you said is ass backwards. Why? Because it is impossible for any human written set of RPG rules to encompasses the possibilities inherent in any setting. That why Tabletop RPGs have human referees in the first place.

Define the setting first and then the rules you are going to use. Now the virtue of ACKS is as you noted that the authors did a excellent job of crunching a plausible set of numbers to underpin a D&D style fantasy medieval setting. But realize in the end it all ties back to that setting. As the referee you have final say over what the setting is or isn't. And even for all the work put into ACKS it is still incomplete even for a generic setting.

For example to use a wight . It is creature that is undead and was once a human or demi-human. That its appearance is a warped and twisted version of how it originally looked. That it sucks the life force out of those who it touch and if it goes on long enough the victim will die and rise up as another wight within the week. That they are not effected by sleep, charm, or hold magic. And only be harmed by spells, magic weapons, or silver.

Now what it doesn't say anything about the motivations or purpose of wights. We do have a section on undead. In it we learn that they are horrors, that they are considered evil. If you read anything about fantasy or history, you will now that traditionally wights are associated with malignant undead inhabiting tombs most famously found in the Lord of the Rings when Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin ran afoul of one on the Barrow-downs.

Likely the authors of ACKS were aware of the origins of wights which stems from a late 19th century translation of Nordic saga feature Draugr. That a Draugr is a Nordic undead associated with guarding treasure in a burial mound.

However we have a lot of dials to turn with wights at this point. The only way that they get set is when you define what and how they are in your setting. Hence why it has to be setting before rules.

For my part this is my take on wights in the Majestic Wilderlands.

QuoteWIGHT
Wights are undead animated by the spirits of restless dead determined to protect their graves. Usually it is the spirit of a person whose primary motivation was greed in life. Sometimes individuals who have a powerful sense of duty or honor to his ancestors will rise as a wight.

Most religions incorporate rituals in their burial rites that prevent wights from rising. Although in some cases they are deliberately omitted to provide the grave site with guardians. They appear as gaunt skeletal human dressed in grave robes with their eyes burning with an unholy light.

Wights are unable to travel beyond a mile away from the bounds of their burial site. In the case of barrow mounds this can be an extensive range of several square miles.

Quote from: Bren;1021360They would be Great Wight Hunters.

Seven beers.

Quote from: estar;1021373For example to use a wight . It is creature that is undead and was once a human or demi-human. That its appearance is a warped and twisted version of how it originally looked. That it sucks the life force out of those who it touch and if it goes on long enough the victim will die and rise up as another wight within the week. That they are not effected by sleep, charm, or hold magic. And only be harmed by spells, magic weapons, or silver.

Now what it doesn't say anything about the motivations or purpose of wights. We do have a section on undead. In it we learn that they are horrors, that they are considered evil. If you read anything about fantasy or history, you will now that traditionally wights are associated with malignant undead inhabiting tombs most famously found in the Lord of the Rings when Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin ran afoul of one on the Barrow-downs.

Well said; the parameters of Wights (and just about everything in ACKS, as I've come to discover) provides a fine body, but it relies on a GM to create the soul. I'm comfortable fiddling with those dials you're describing; that's why I'm taking the advice to make the "standard" Wight a territorial, greedy hoarder (ala the lord of the rings barrow wight, which is my favorite depiction of one).

Now, this isn't to say that the party antipaladin can't control a small army of Wights created by the "party Wight", but I consider that clever strategy, not an inherently broken fragment of rules. "Crusade of Wights led by a dark paladin" sounds about right for Carcosa, and is a far cry from "Wights are zombies but invincible to nonmagic", which was the problem with my (incorrect) original reading.

This seems like a good place to post this.

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UP IN THE AIR, JUNIOR BIRDMEN!

In Volume 1 of Original D&D, Gary wrote that "There is no reason that players cannot be allowed to play as virtually anything, provided they begin relatively weak and work up to the top." I've noted that I played several Balrogs, and way back in the Introduction, I told the story of Sir Fang, the first Vampire player character.

Note, however, that Sir Fang was not the LAST Vampire player character.

One of the gang at the U of Minnesota wanted to play a vampire. This was LONG before vampires were sparkly, and, for that matter, long before they were Brad Pitt. A vampire was Christopher Lee or Bela Lugosi in tuxedo and opera cape, period.

In D&D, if you wanted to play anything, you ALWAYS started low level and worked your way up. D&D undead had a correlation between type and hit dice; a Skeleton was 1 HD, a Zombie 2, etc, up through Ghoul, Wight, Wraith, Mummy, Spectre, Vampire... so our would-be vampire started, of course, as a Skeleton. But at long last he became a vampire, and then, per the rules, proceeded to make a bunch of slaves by "putting the fangs to them." Of course, those killed would rise with 1 HD also... as a Skeleton.

Eventually the vampire got a cohort of slave vampires and spectres following him. Hooray.

Well, one dark moonlit night our PC and his henchpires were out travelling somewhere and had a random encounter... another band of vampires. PC decides he's going to eliminate the lead vampire of the other gang and take them all over; the NPC vampire had much the same idea. And the fight was on.

Vampire attacks Spectre. Vampire hits; Spectre is drained 2 levels; Spectre becomes a Wraith.

Wraith attacks a different enemy, a Spectre, because it's easier to hit, and hits. But wraiths drain one level, not two, so the enemy Spectre is drained one level... and turns into a mummy.

Oh, by the way... both vampire gangs had been flying, and were fighting at an approximate altitude of 1000 feet above the ground. And mummies are notable for their aerodynamics – "notable" in the sense of, "They fly about as well as a dessicated human corpse that's had its internal organs pulled out and then been wrapped in bandages."

And the hapless mummy plummets earthward, flapping its arms madly.

I'm sure you can see where this is heading. The aerial duel continued in something rather like "Night of the Living Dead" meets "Blue Max," and as the combatants were drained levels, they would eventually hit a non-flying form... zombie, ghoul, wight, or mummy... and go hurtling towards the ground in the grip of that puissant incantation, "9.8 meters per second squared".

I picture the peasants below, huddling in their wretched huts and praying as hard as they can as various half-decomposed bodies fall out of the sky to land with meaty thumps. On the other hand, all that organic material would be great fertilizer.

I've never needed rules for "comic relief" in D&D. Wait patiently and the players will provide it in abundance.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1021380Seven beers.

I thought you liked puns.

Wights are affected by fire, and even the lowliest humans have that weapon at their disposal. They also avoid bright lights as well as sunlight, so one way communities might keep them under control is with picks and shovels: digging up the mounds, tombs and catacombs where the wights live and giving them nowhere to hide from the sun.