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Would you rather play in a P-A campaign that is:

a) Bleak and Hopeless

b) Challenging but Optimistic

c) Wacky and Gonzo?

A cop-out probsbly but I'd say all three. Challenging but optimistic would strike me as misplaced in a PA setting set after a nuclear holocaust, but would work for other kinds of PAs.

Human or very near-human PCs in a wacky/gonzo setting. Something like the Heavy Metal Taarna sequence maybe.

Somewhere between b) and c) with any bleakness only showing through in old world ruins or in particularly devolved human cultures.

The original Fallout setting, as portrayed in the first game, with it's future of a 50s Americana lens thrown into the nuclear war blender is probably the most fun PA setting i've seen.

The wacky aspects of the first one also worked a lot better due to being more grounded than the following ones. Contrast everyone unironically dressing like they're extras in Mad Max with an entire faction being wasted on a jab at the silliness of Scientology with stand-ins for Hubbard, Cruise and Kidman.

That said i'd play in any of them as long as they don't devolve into misery tourism.

I like to present it bleak, challenging, and with dark humor injected whenever possible. I always did like the extremely lethal Gamma World rpg, and have been working this autumn on a new Gamma World campaign set in Old Texas. I never was much one for the gonzo, and preferred the post-apocalyptic realism which included fatalism that was very much a part of my younger life because of the cold war. That said, the first stories that influenced my visions for what a post-apocalyptic Gamma World was Andre Norton's Starman's Son. My newest Texas Gamma World campaign setting pays homage to that.

Of course, both Wasteland and Fallout heavily influenced my Gamma World games as well. The original Wasteland was very violent, but also very interesting, and had plenty of dark humor. It opened up quite a few new avenues for my post-apocalyptic games.Ditto with the newest version of Wasteland as well, both Wasteland releases incidentally contained plenty of written contributions provided by Michael Stackpole.

Stormwolf, the official website of Michael A. Stackpole
http://stormwolf.com/

I started playing Fallout in 1998 when it was first released, and thought it was an ok game. Ultraviolent, just like its' predecessor, Wasteland, It was simply loaded with dark humor. At the time though, I was on a hiatus from playing RPGs so it didn't much affect my game design. I didn't like Fallout II at all, never played Fallout III, and was not impressed with Fallout III: New Vegas when I tried it last year. I did get Fallout IV when it was first released, and it is probably one of the best post-apocalyptic video games ever made. It is and remains, quite influential. I'm looking forward to picking up some minis for it starting right around the holidays this year, so I can run some Gamma World / Fallout mashups for Tabletop.

Modiphus: Fallout IV Miniatures
https://www.modiphius.com/fallout.html


How do I prefer my post-apocalyptic games? With a heavy dose of radiation, survival bunkers loaded with food, weapons, ammunition, and supply caches, and real men and women, who don't give up easily, who are determined to thrive and survive in spite of the stupidity of man (though I wouldn't be surprised these days if a woman was the person conducting the first strike launch.

I'd say Challenging but Optimistic would be the closest to my preference. I'd probably play in a Bleak and Hopeless campaign, but I'd have zero interest in any gonzo shit.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1005766Would you rather play in a P-A campaign that is:
a) Bleak and Hopeless
b) Challenging but Optimistic

Some overlap of the above. I think maybe things would start out "Bleak and Hopeless", and then as the characters get things done it would transition more into the "Challenging but Optimistic" style. B&H seems like it would grow old fast, but C&O seems to be somewhere near the end of a campaign.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1005766Would you rather play in a P-A campaign that is:
a) Bleak and Hopeless
b) Challenging but Optimistic

Some overlap of the above. I think maybe things would start out "Bleak and Hopeless", and then as the characters get things done it would transition more into the "Challenging but Optimistic" style. B&H seems like it would grow old fast, but C&O seems to be somewhere near the end of a campaign.

Challenging but optimistic comes closest, I guess. Gruelling and gritty, but at with least some hope of the players making things better.

I think I just said exactly what Finarvyn said.

If I can only choose one to play ever again, I'll go with C, although I have a feeling your idea of gonzo differs from mine based on prior posts. Otherwise, I'll play around in any of the three in the short term. Postapocalyptic settings aren't really my bag in general.

A and B might make for good stories, but C makes for the better game. A table top roleplaying game lives on variety, exploration and unexpected twists and turns. You need to loosen up a bit to deliver these things.

B.  I don't do well with gonzo, and gaming's escapism for me; I prefer not to deal with bleak and hopeless.

A - The wastes. Bleak and hopeless, sometimes radioactive.

B - Settlements. Underground, under domes, or just a lucky find of a low radiation area. There are the places you can have luxuries, such as unfiltered drinking water and soil that grows plants for food.

C - The Sprawl. The middle ground between A and B, where you might have to deal with threats that emerge from the wastes, but you are close enough to a settlement to retreat to and recover from your adventures, as well as sell your salvage. The Sprawl is where most of the salvage is to be found.

B and C for me but I do love the tone of bleak games.

Assuming Gonzo is just weird as opposed to funny.

Something like the games Borderlands or Fallout.

But I do like the whole Zombie thing as well.

Yes, I love me some post apocalypse. I lean towards the first two (but not too bleak or too much optimism), but I'm ok with wacky stuff like Gamma World as long as I know that going in and the tone is appropriately weird.

On the wackier end I prefer if the tone of the game doesn't take itself seriously but is not outright silly or slapstick. While not PA the 1980s Flash Gordon movie is an example of the perfect mix of goofy and serious for me.

Generally I'm not a fan of mixing off the wall stuff with PA grounded in the real world. Mad Max will have no truck with telepathic anthropomorphic rabbits. However I'm not against including sci-fi or horror into a dark and gritty toned PA game. Radioactive mutants, alien technology and such are ok if made to fit into the world. Zombie apocalypse or alien invasion being good examples, neither is exactly realistic but they work in their particular sub genres. I think could get into a semi-realistic dark and gritty style of PA game that at the same time is a bit tongue in cheek, think Bruce Campbell as Mad Max.



On the more serious end my preferences fall between 1 and 2. I don't want bleak and hopeless that is truly hopeless, I mean if everybody is going to die in six months and there is nothing that can be done what is the point. On the other end if the players feel like everything is going to be ok, well that isn't really PA anymore.

I like that middle ground where everybody is screwed but just maybe with some hard work things will get better. Things probably won't be as before in the PCs lifetime but they can help to recover some semblance of normality. Maybe there really is a place where things didn't get so bad, just have to find it.


I guess ultimately as with most genres the most important bit is a well designed game world that is internally consistent.

You forgot

d) Stylish and transgressive (The Bad Batch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouz6vQ80dag), Apocalypse World)

That's my favourite. :)

Somewhere between A and B, closer to A. Not a big fan of gonzo or silliness. I love it when I crawl and claw my way to the top of a brutal mountain only to see an even taller mountain behind it.

Edit: I don't know if some would consider this gonzo, but I like terrifyingly insane bad guys, the kind who wear their victims' body parts or file their teeth and tattoo their faces to look like predator animals.

The bad guys from Ghosts of Mars are my baseline for PA baddies

Hm. The choices are a bit head-scratching to me.  My only PA experience was Gamma World so I don't know what other options are out there, but I don't think my expectations were ever framed in terms of an optimism-pessimism scale. What we expected (and got) was a world that is what it is. We couldn't make it better, and we were unlikely to make it worse. Our immediate challenge was to survive and enhance our personal power/wealth/technology what-have-you, and our broader goal was to explore a world that was strange and mysterious and only really understood by the GM who created it. Not unlike D&D really, although perhaps fewer "comfortable" places. Is that Gonzo? Maybe, but I'm never sure what I'm picking when I check the "gonzo" box, so I'm reluctant to do that.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1005790I like to present it bleak, challenging, and with dark humor injected whenever possible. I always did like the extremely lethal Gamma World rpg, and have been working this autumn on a new Gamma World campaign set in Old Texas. I never was much one for the gonzo, and preferred the post-apocalyptic realism which included fatalism that was very much a part of my younger life because of the cold war. That said, the first stories that influenced my visions for what a post-apocalyptic Gamma World was Andre Norton's Starman's Son. My newest Texas Gamma World campaign setting pays homage to that.

Of course, both Wasteland and Fallout heavily influenced my Gamma World games as well. The original Wasteland was very violent, but also very interesting, and had plenty of dark humor. It opened up quite a few new avenues for my post-apocalyptic games.Ditto with the newest version of Wasteland as well, both Wasteland releases incidentally contained plenty of written contributions provided by Michael Stackpole.

Stormwolf, the official website of Michael A. Stackpole
http://stormwolf.com/

I started playing Fallout in 1998 when it was first released, and thought it was an ok game. Ultraviolent, just like its' predecessor, Wasteland, It was simply loaded with dark humor. At the time though, I was on a hiatus from playing RPGs so it didn't much affect my game design. I didn't like Fallout II at all, never played Fallout III, and was not impressed with Fallout III: New Vegas when I tried it last year. I did get Fallout IV when it was first released, and it is probably one of the best post-apocalyptic video games ever made. It is and remains, quite influential. I'm looking forward to picking up some minis for it starting right around the holidays this year, so I can run some Gamma World / Fallout mashups for Tabletop.

Modiphus: Fallout IV Miniatures
https://www.modiphius.com/fallout.html

How do I prefer my post-apocalyptic games? With a heavy dose of radiation, survival bunkers loaded with food, weapons, ammunition, and supply caches, and real men and women, who don't give up easily, who are determined to thrive and survive in spite of the stupidity of man (though I wouldn't be surprised these days if a woman was the person conducting the first strike launch.

You are a heretic and should be purged by Flamer! Purged, I say!

Quote from: RPGPundit;1005766Would you rather play in a P-A campaign that is:

a) Bleak and Hopeless

b) Challenging but Optimistic

c) Wacky and Gonzo?

A and B. A lot of members here have mentioned Fallout as being gonzo but it's not really, most of them time. Even 2, being the most divisive one, was not particularly wacky. It had plenty of easter eggs and nerd culture references sprinkled in but otherwise was mostly darker than the original (figure an entire city ruled and governed by rival crime syndicates or another technologically-advanced one that openly, unapologetically practices slavery). Heck, its storyline was about stopping genocidal maniacs who just so happened to be the descendants of America's political, industrial and scientific elite (which I won't spoil any further for those who. still. have. not. played. it. yet!).

Quote from: Technomancer;1005879Somewhere between A and B, closer to A. Not a big fan of gonzo or silliness. I love it when I crawl and claw my way to the top of a brutal mountain only to see an even taller mountain behind it.

Edit: I don't know if some would consider this gonzo, but I like terrifyingly insane bad guys, the kind who wear their victims' body parts or file their teeth and tattoo their faces to look like predator animals.

The bad guys from Ghosts of Mars are my baseline for PA baddies

There's a Raider in Fallout New Vegas who rapes his victims then eats them. And he's not picky about age or sex either. Oh, and he always uses his Flamer to roast em' (while they're still alive, of course). That terrifyingly insane for you?

I prefer the stories that can be told during the rebuilding of society. After the "event" is over, do we go back to feudalism? Do we skip right back into democracy? How many zombies does it take to alter the outcome of an election?

In other words, I would prefer a post-postapocalypse setting.

I'm thinking C, since my mind runs to "Thundaar the Barbarian" whenever I think of PA settings.

Which is great with Cartoon Action Hour: Season 3!

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1005892There's a Raider in Fallout New Vegas who rapes his victims then eats them. And he's not picky about age or sex either. Oh, and he always uses his Flamer to roast em' (while they're still alive, of course). That terrifyingly insane for you?

"If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins into their clothing – and if we're very, very lucky, they'll do it in that order."

Midnight, essentially bleak and hopeless with the uncommon motes of light set against the unrelenting gloom of Izrador.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1005766a) Bleak and Hopeless?

No. The RPG version of Cormac McCarthy's The Road would be a suicidal downer and not at all entertaining to me.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1005766b) Challenging but Optimistic?

Yes. Give me some Twilight: 2000 and I'll be satisfied (although it just doesn't have the same impact anymore since it ain't the 80's anymore).

Quote from: RPGPundit;1005766c) Wacky and Gonzo?

Yes. Gamma World may not be in print nowadays, but there is still Mutant Future for some PA gonzo fun.

Wherever "Thundarr the Barbarian" and "Rifts" fall... I'd guess B for mood, but C for options.

Quote from: Chris24601;1006134Wherever "Thundarr the Barbarian" and "Rifts" fall... I'd guess B for mood, but C for options.

I'd say those two are both C.

Quote from: jeff37923;1006131No. The RPG version of Cormac McCarthy's The Road would be a suicidal downer and not at all entertaining to me.



Yes. Give me some Twilight: 2000 and I'll be satisfied (although it just doesn't have the same impact anymore since it ain't the 80's anymore).



Yes. Gamma World may not be in print nowadays, but there is still Mutant Future for some PA gonzo fun.

So Gamma World, if you play it in the spirit I think was intended, does qualify as C) gonzo?

Quote from: Zirunel;1006138So Gamma World, if you play it in the spirit I think was intended, does qualify as C) gonzo?

To me it sure does. Don't know about everybody else.

Quote from: Zirunel;1006138So Gamma World, if you play it in the spirit I think was intended, does qualify as C) gonzo?

That's a tough one. I guess the answer is: "depends upon the edition and the group."

1E Gamma World had drawings of rabbits with guns but the text didn't sound terribly gonzo, so my group ignored the pictures and played it grim and gritty. Some of the later incarnations had some pretty wild stuff in them so it was more obvious that gonzo was the intended style, but I didn't really get that so much with 1E.

In general I find that my players come up with gonzo ideas and sure-fail plans, so the rulebook doesn't need to do that for me. Some of the most gonzo games I've run were supposed to be serious Call of Cthulhu sessions, which turned crazy when decisions and/or dice rolls made everything fall apart. I prefer for the humor to come out of play and not the rules.

I'd say C, leaning towards B. My preferred system is the 19932 edition of Gamma World. I think it's easier to start gonzo and move towards a more serious tone.

For me it has to be Gonzo. A bleak post-apocalypse doesn't work as it makes no amount of sense. The environment would improve if all the people died. So any sort of "realistic" PA setting would be more like Grizzly Adams than The Road.

So, I guess I'd pick option d) Reskinned Western

Quote from: finarvyn;1006151That's a tough one. I guess the answer is: "depends upon the edition and the group."

1E Gamma World had drawings of rabbits with guns but the text didn't sound terribly gonzo, so my group ignored the pictures and played it grim and gritty. Some of the later incarnations had some pretty wild stuff in them so it was more obvious that gonzo was the intended style, but I didn't really get that so much with 1E.

In general I find that my players come up with gonzo ideas and sure-fail plans, so the rulebook doesn't need to do that for me. Some of the most gonzo games I've run were supposed to be serious Call of Cthulhu sessions, which turned crazy when decisions and/or dice rolls made everything fall apart. I prefer for the humor to come out of play and not the rules.

1e for me, so yeah, rabbits. I had forgotten about those. Also the pathetic mutant that wasn't supposed to survive chargen.
But those rabbits never showed up in our games, although other  weird things did. So I guess colour me gonzo, but more toward the low-gonzo end of the spectrum.

Quote from: Ted;1005958Midnight, essentially bleak and hopeless with the uncommon motes of light set against the unrelenting gloom of Izrador.

Noah Antweiler mentioned Midnight in one his videos. Care to spin a mini-review about it? It's in my sights for procural.

Quote from: jeff37923;1006131No. The RPG version of Cormac McCarthy's The Road would be a suicidal downer and not at all entertaining to me.

I saw the film years ago. Was one of the saddest, bleakest, most depressing films yet it nailed the thriller vibe when it needed to. The two bullet thing was genius. Whole thing totally put me off my at-the-time naivete about awesome, mutant 'splody post-apocolyspse'ing...

... yet I still think it would be a fascinating setting to explore if expanded upon and set about a decade later when things have settled down a tad.

"How Do You Prefer Your Post-Apocalypse?"

Medium RAW, reasonably crunchy and with spicy content, please;)!

My fave PA work is probably Roadside Picnic and the Stalker videogames. A pity those are so little explored in the hobby.

I say c in to b preferably with A side of magic returning / being rediscovered.
I would give after the bomb with A supliment to add in magic as an example ( and sadly A game I have never gotten off the ground).  

Quote from: Tetsubo;1006289I'd say C, leaning towards B. My preferred system is the 19932 edition of Gamma World. I think it's easier to start gonzo and move towards a more serious tone.

Greetings time traveler thank you for letting us know that rpgs will still be around nearly 18000 years from now.

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1006363Noah Antweiler mentioned Midnight in one his videos. Care to spin a mini-review about it? It's in my sights for procural.

Sure happy to.

Elevator pitch: Imagine a world where Sauron finally won and it happened a hundred years ago.

Longer treatment: god of evil, Izrador, is banished to earth and a veil descends between the gods and mortals. Izrador rallies evil to himself and ventures forth from the frozen north. Twice over a thousand years he is defeated, but the third time is the charm. He suborns four great heroes to serve as his Night Kings as the orcish armies of the North finally prevail.

Dwarves retreat to mountain holds, the elves to their forest, but the humans and halflings feel the full brunt of occupation and slavery. The land is ruled by legates, magic is illegal, channellers are roundeded up and disappear.  

The light of freedom is extinguished unless you few, you happy few, you band of freedom fighters take up the challenge and rage against the darkness.

There is obiviously a lot more to it, lots of coolness.  We played for 3 years and it was a great campaign.

I'd say a mix of B and C.  Nothing Gamma World level of crazy, but maybe a bit more out there than Fallout.

Deadlands:  Hell on Earth has a lot going for it in that regard.

I can take Twilight: 2000 in small doses, but would generally  prefer After The Bomb (TMNT) or Gamma World. Bleak does nothing for me in the long-term. The real world is bleak enough.

A and C

Quotea) Bleak and Hopeless

Other Dust (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/103502/Other-Dust)
Pretty dark, gritty, etc..   it works very well and has lots of sandbox RPG style material to work with.
Additionally, it's compatible with the scifi RPG "Stars without Number, so you draw draw material from there too.
That and Silent Legions RPG, Spears of Dawn and probably other RPGs made by the same guy.  

Quotec) Wacky and Gonzo?

For this category, I like Gammaworld 7th edition (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/161306/DD-Gamma-World-RPG-GW7e).
This was a pretty unpopular version, but I really liked it and even though it was based on 4th edition DnD rules, it worked really well for the Gonzo style.

Quote from: Itachi;1006393My fave PA work is probably Roadside Picnic and the Stalker videogames. A pity those are so little explored in the hobby.

Love the book and film, game was good but I didn't have the time to commit to it.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1005766Would you rather play in a P-A campaign that is:

a) Bleak and Hopeless
b) Challenging but Optimistic
c) Wacky and Gonzo?

Depends.

"Realistic" PA is pretty bleak and hopeless. AKA, Twilight 2000.

I run Rifts, Gamma World and Waste World as challenging and gonzo, but the gonzo makes sense in relation to the setting. AKA, my gonzo stuff isn't there for cheap laughs, but integrated into the setting as a bizarre, but believable aspect.

Quote from: Voros;1006487Love the book and film, game was good but I didn't have the time to commit to it.

There was a certain... religious proselitizing*? in the film that bothered me a bit and makes me rank it below the other two. it's a great film nonetheless.

*from my interpretation, the stalker in the movie wants to believe in the "sacredness" of the zone, which the movie puts in doubt until the very ending, when the girls shows blatant telekinetic powers, thus validating the stalker's belief. Some people interpret that the cup slides due to vibration caused by the train in the background, but I don't know, the scene seems pretty obvious to me. I wish the ending kept with the dubious nature the film sustained til that part.

Bleak & Hopeless is never to my liking.

Quote from: Itachi;1006529There was a certain... religious proselitizing*? in the film that bothered me a bit and makes me rank it below the other two. it's a great film nonetheless.

*from my interpretation, the stalker in the movie wants to believe in the "sacredness" of the zone, which the movie puts in doubt until the very ending, when the girls shows blatant telekinetic powers, thus validating the stalker's belief. Some people interpret that the cup slides due to vibration caused by the train in the background, but I don't know, the scene seems pretty obvious to me. I wish the ending kept with the dubious nature the film sustained til that part.

Tarkovsky is a deeply religious filmmaker for sure, all his films are. He's as Russian as they come. And yes, clearly it is telekinesis at the end. They used a string to pull the glass off the table. A great ending I think. I'm not a believer but can appreciate religious artists, whether it is Tarkovsky or Tolstoy.

I can enjoy an equal measure of tough-but-hopeful, if I want something deep, or just pure gonzo if I want crazy adventures. A bleak post-apocalypse just isn't fun.