TheRPGSite

While discussing the pitfalls of Organized Play in this thread (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?39663-Freak-Trains-No-Heroism-and-I-Want-To-Use-Dark-Powers-For-Good!), I came up with a question for the forum. I'd like to know what ways people can think of to attract casual players and lapsed players to TTRPGs.

People participating in Organized Play are only a fraction of total gamers out there who have been interested in the hobby or were once a part of the hobby, so how do we attract them back? What methods can we use to recapture their interest or attract new players?

As a grognard who gamed daily for a decade then went on hiatus and is now back at it, the most important part for me was that I was always in a set group in person.  There wasnt any internet back then so gaming meant committing to the schedule and showing up.  Same group for the most part, the odd player checkin out or the new player checkin in.  Always in person.  Never a 'no show'.  I saw the advent of chat gaming, play by post, voice conferencing, video conferencing, and finally online tabletop simulators, but none of that 'got me back into gaming'.

What got me back into gaming was I heard folks in my office talk about a game they were running and I said I'd like to pop in on it.  Not necessarily to play, but just see what kinda stuff they're doin and decide if I might be a good fit.  So what got me back into gaming was folks playing in person, making the commitment, showing up, having a great time, and regaling us about it at work.  Granted scheduling was easier for those guys because half of them worked at the same company and worked the same shifts, so you knew what days and times people had off and those days and times were all the same for everyone.

But a good game takes a big chunk of a day.  You gotta be willing to commit to it.  And share the joys of it in public with people who aren't part of it.  Lots of folks out there just looking for group who dont even know good gaming is happening right underneath their nose.  Gaming online might be easier and more comfortable, but its a poor replacement for gaming in person and the more foiks that take the simple solution the less gaming in person there is out there as a whole.

I like nearbygamers.com conceptually but its poorly programmed, clunky, and doesnt have as active community as it should.  Its exactly HOW I want to look for game groups, but even I haven't updated my profile on it in 4 years... Looking for games in forums usually results in online games instead. The bulletin board at the flgs can work, but the board is usually small, and how often does one actually show up there... Once a week?  A map based phone app could be good.

In person gaming is best, and if you don't have a steady in person group, we shouldnt just settle for online play.  So talk it up out in the world.  Dont be shy. Wouldnt we all rather be talking about cool games we've been playing than yammerin on about politics?  Of course we would.  As Ghandi said 'be the change you want to see in the world'.

Does COTI have a YouTube channel yet?

I've found running an open-table 5e D&D Meetup has been great for bringing in brand new, casual, and lapsed players. I followed a lot of the Alexandrian's advice on 'Opening Your Game table' but of course with fixed regular dates and an RSVP list. I think the biggest factor is no continuing obligation to keep showing up from game to game, and aiming to make each 4 hour session be fun and satisfying in itself.

Obviously it's important that the rules be accessible and popular, and also that players don't need to come in knowing any rules; we always have pregens on hand.

Edit: I was asked before about starting a Meetup and did this post - http://simonyrpgs.blogspot.com/2018/07/starting-rpg-meetup.html

Make them read thick books full of rules! :cool:

But on a serious note, I agree with S'mon. Open tables with pregens are a great way to sell the RPG drug to newbs. It lets them have fun without any commitment.

My set of rules would be

-Don't edition war with them. Too often gamers forget this and let's be brutally honest casual and regular gamers are not interested in hearing your rants and diatribes on the topic.

-Assume that they play the game differently than you do. Shocker I know yet again some forget that. "what you want to play a Paladin that is not Lawful Good???" Try and work with them and if not and the game styles clash then either or both are not a good fit.

-Learn some social skills to deal with your fellow gamer as some here and elsewhere are sorely lacking. To continue with my above comment on the Paladin saying something to the effect of "What's wrong can't hack playing a LG Paladin suck it up Buttercup" means the player willl get up and walk off. Or worse you get a deserved punch in the face. That kind of shit may work at your game table. Not with the casual gamer off the street. Tone it down and be diplomatic or learn to play the solitaire version of D&D. Same thing with players if your getting a bad vibe from the player behavior don't be afraid to say no.

-Find players who are willing to commit to a semi-regular game. At most make it minimum 4-6 hours of gameplay. They days of playing every week for 12 hours one might pull it off currently at ones current table. They are very much the exception not the norm. I'm 45 years old and I simply no longer have the energy for a 12 hour game sessions.

-Assume depending on the age of your players that some may not be able to show due to other commitment. If your playing with single 15-20 year olds one may be able to get them to show more often. Anyone in their 30s-40s usually have family and/or work schedules that may conflict with gaming. Sorry you may have spent the better part of the week working on your adventure except Thomas young 2 year old comes down with a high fever. Thomas does the smart thing and stays home to take care of his child whether one lies it or not. Vic has to work two of the four game sessions for the month. Vic does the equally smart thing and makes money. Gaming is fun it don't pay the bills. Ted has a wedding reception in two weeks he can't show he cannot not go to any soical family events because of gaming. Assume the gaming schedule will be erratic.  Frank wife is pregnant and no he will not hand over his cellphone for whatever reason because he needs to be in contact with her at all times. No exceptions no debate to be had on that issue.

-Embrace and allow technology at the table. The younger generation and even some older generation gamers like myself will be using our cellphones, tablets and the internet to look up spells, feats and whatever we need online. As long as the gamer does not have his head buried in online I see no reason not to use it. Herolab for Pathfinder may cost money yet everything I need is on my sheet. No the casual gamer is not going to memorize his entire sheet by heart and depending on the rpg being played impossible. You want to keep them at the table save the rants and diatribes on the subject to a minimum.

-More importantly make sure everyone is having fun at the table. Find out what players want and do not want at the table. Players should also try to work with the DM. Problematic players need to be booted from the table at the earliest opportunity and make sure one of the requirements to join is no politics and bathing is mandatory. No one likes rpging with a stinky member of the group.

1. Make a game that can be played casually.

I've introduced a lot of people to D&D who had fun the first couple sessions, then dropped out when they realized this is the kind of thing that goes on for years with no real "end."

Quote from: Spinachcat;1060137Make them read thick books full of rules! :cool:.

Find a way to have a fun 2 hour session.  4 hours is a hard sell to most people who haven't played before.

I don't know about the best way, but the way I do it has certainly had no trouble attracting people, new and lapsed:

1. Run a game and style you really enjoy.  That's important for a game with a core group of dedicated gamers, but it doesn't stop being true to attract others.

2. However, within what you can change in that game and style, accommodate beginners or casuals.  For example, I don't mind not having a cohesive group, where people drop in and out, and the roster is flexible each session.  We just do a reality shift and poof characters in and out, even if we left it at a cliffhanger.  From a character perspective, it makes no sense, but from a party sense, it is constant enough to give everyone a sense of continuity.  This means I get a lot of players that can 50% to 90% commit, but not fully.  Anywhere north of 75% commit is pretty darn effective--enough that I'll put up with the lesser amounts.  I do ask that people let me know each session with a few days notice, and stick to that.

Larger point being, that's my compromise thing that works.  Find what yours is.

3. Running pre-gens and a simpler game is one slice of a larger thing of accommodate people who don't want to learn the rules fully, or only want to do so over time with experience.  There are many ways to do this.  I handle it by having a core group of more dedicated gamers that sit interspersed with beginners, so that we can keep the game moving without me becoming a bottleneck of rules questions and decisions.  

4. Make pre-gens mechanically bog-standard simple, but give the characters one or two roleplaying oddities.  Not too extreme, as it can lead a new character into some pathological gamer behavior, but rather something to make the character stand-out and be easy to roleplay.  You know, the kind of things the more experienced players do for themselves, but a new/lapsed player might not think to do.

I've been on a Fantasy Trip jag (playing ~twice a week) since SJG released the beta pdf of the new game last month, and I highly recommend it as an 'on ramp' game for lapsed or new players. If one person at the table knows how to play, the game has almost no barriers to just jumping in and playing, and the default way to play involves physical components (maps and markers or figures) that focus attention on the table and give new players something concrete to visualize and manipulate as they make decisions about play.

For me, the issue has always been finding the games or the gamers.  Back in ye olden days it was easy, we were in school with others.  Now I work (I'm a nurse in a non-hospital setting.  Hours and days change rapidly, staff tend to not have same interests), player/group finders are not helpful, and I don't know of any game stores within reasonable range.

I became a lapsed gamer about 5 years ago.  It's easier to play (modded) Skyrim, Fallout, Conan, etc on my xbox than it is to get a group together.  Existing groups tend to not advertise and forums are often too large (geographically) to make it feasible.

Even in California there are many places that are not highly populated, or are too spread out to get a consistent gaming group formed.

So, maybe some form of teleportation and intrusive telepathic game advertising system?

Quote from: fearsomepirate;10601501. Make a game that can be played casually.

I've introduced a lot of people to D&D who had fun the first couple sessions, then dropped out when they realized this is the kind of thing that goes on for years with no real "end."

?

I never see people quit knitting because they never reach the "end of knitting".
I can understand that someone might not be interested in a whole campaign right off the bat. A first adventure should probably have a clear goal and a path to reach it in a session or two.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1060160?

I never see people quit knitting because they never reach the "end of knitting".
I can understand that someone might not be interested in a whole campaign right off the bat. A first adventure should probably have a clear goal and a path to reach it in a session or two.

Well, they might quit if they realized the first thing they started knitting would take years to complete. Probably best to start knitting something small first.

Quote from: happyhermit;1060164Well, they might quit if they realized the first thing they started knitting would take years to complete. Probably best to start knitting something small first.

One-shots have been a thing for decades now;).

Open table, meaner "we play with whoever shows up" and no more rules crunch than they want to handle, is the way to go. That, and presenting a living world which reacts dynamically to the actions, for good and ill.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1060160?

I never see people quit knitting because they never reach the "end of knitting".

Knitting is nothing like D&D.

I've had some version of this happen multiple times:

"Wow, that was pretty cool."

Great, glad you enjoyed it!

"Where can I buy a mini?"

Oh, there's a game store right near here.

"How often do you guys meet?"

Every week.

"How long have you been playing this campaign?"

Oh, about a year, year and a half.

~~two hours later~~

From: newb@normalperson.com
To: fearsomepirate@thescurvyseahorse.net

Hey man, I had a lot of fun, but I just don't think D&D is for me. It just seems like a really big commitment.

Unvetted players showing up for a long-ass campaign for a tabletop RPG they know nothing about. Traps that nerds often find themselves in. Better to just sit around and paint minis all day.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;10601501. Make a game that can be played casually.

I've introduced a lot of people to D&D who had fun the first couple sessions, then dropped out when they realized this is the kind of thing that goes on for years with no real "end."

One shots are a possibility, but those are pretty limited on a recurring basis and don't show the full potential. They can also be a bummer for more experienced gamers expecting more. I'm fine with a one shot at a con, but I probably wouldn't come back week after week for a series of one shot games.



An episodic campaign seems like a good middle ground. People get the idea of TV shows, a bunch of short tales in a larger story arc so a bit less OMG I have to do this for 5 years?

Like actors people can commit for 2-3 sessions and feel like they had a conclusion (guest part), or stick around for the long haul. An occasional player can either be a recurring, occasional part, or be like Patrick McGoohan in Columbo playing a completely different character each time. You can also go the Darrin Stevens route and reuse a stock PC with multiple new players.

Quote from: Razor 007;1060152Find a way to have a fun 2 hour session.  4 hours is a hard sell to most people who haven't played before.

I can't. I can't motivate myself to put together a game where my players are not as motivated as me. 2 hours? I don't believe that's enough time to get anything done.

This whole thread is actually depressing me. :-(

Quote from: trechriron;1060186I can't. I can't motivate myself to put together a game where my players are not as motivated as me. 2 hours? I don't believe that's enough time to get anything done.

This whole thread is actually depressing me. :-(

I've got a very fun game that happens for 75 minutes once every 2 to 3 weeks.  It's working just fine.  It's not my only game.  If it were, that would be distinctly non-optimal.

Quote from: Razor 007;1060152Find a way to have a fun 2 hour session.  4 hours is a hard sell to most people who haven't played before.

That's not really been my experience. But then a Risk game can take several hours and card games can run all evening or longer. So if you are used to those it is not a big leap time wise for players.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1060155I've been on a Fantasy Trip jag (playing ~twice a week) since SJG released the beta pdf of the new game last month, and I highly recommend it as an 'on ramp' game for lapsed or new players.

Is that available for the GP or just for Kickstarter backers?

Considering I typically game once a week for 8 hour sessions, I suppose its not unreasonable to instead game for 2 hours every other night, but that only represents equal time if its online and not 'everybody suddenly has to drive to a location 4 times a week instead of 1.  Could be feasable with online gaming if everyone showed up on time ready to rock and stay focused.  Even with video conferencing though the 'pace' of gaming just slows down so much i'm not sure I could stand the pace, and as a guy who doesn't mind futzin about and taking his time, thats sayin somethin.

Quote from: trechriron;1060186I can't. I can't motivate myself to put together a game where my players are not as motivated as me. 2 hours? I don't believe that's enough time to get anything done.

This whole thread is actually depressing me. :-(

Well this will up your mood then.

My players do not want to play unless it is AT LEAST 6+ hour sessions. My regular weekly Spelljammer Campaign runs around 6-7 depending on timing. 6 seems about the average most like per session. But as noted in older threads. I have DMed and been a player in very long sessions. Longest ever did was a marathon 24 hour session.

I only have the physical endurance for about 4 hours at a time, add another half hour for eating, so 12.30-5pm or 1.30-6pm. Online I prefer 3 hours tops, running Saturdays 08.30-11.15 or so.

Feeling a bit sad now as yesterday we lost the Meetup venue I'd been using for the past year, putting my D&D Meetup pretty much on hold unless/until can get another venue. :(

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1060173Knitting is nothing like D&D.

I've had some version of this happen multiple times:

"Wow, that was pretty cool."

Great, glad you enjoyed it!

"Where can I buy a mini?"

Oh, there's a game store right near here.

"How often do you guys meet?"

Every week.

"How long have you been playing this campaign?"

Oh, about a year, year and a half.

~~two hours later~~

From: newb@normalperson.com
To: fearsomepirate@thescurvyseahorse.net

Hey man, I had a lot of fun, but I just don't think D&D is for me. It just seems like a really big commitment.

A lot of experienced RPers will flake on campaigns after commiting. It's been the big hurdle with my brother's campaign, where players are unreliable.
So maybe these players are correct in that they don't have the commitment to participate.

Quote from: jeff37923;1060116While discussing the pitfalls of Organized Play in this thread (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?39663-Freak-Trains-No-Heroism-and-I-Want-To-Use-Dark-Powers-For-Good!), I came up with a question for the forum. I'd like to know what ways people can think of to attract casual players and lapsed players to TTRPGs.

People participating in Organized Play are only a fraction of total gamers out there who have been interested in the hobby or were once a part of the hobby, so how do we attract them back? What methods can we use to recapture their interest or attract new players?

People who chase obscure, blisteringly hot peppers and argue over Scoville scale measurements often forget that the casual person just wants some Tabasco sauce.

This thread made me think about Justin Alexander's blog post about open tables, and how to approach casual commitment players.

https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/38643/roleplaying-games/open-table-manifesto

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1060325This thread made me think about Justin Alexander's blog post about open tables, and how to approach casual commitment players.

https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/38643/roleplaying-games/open-table-manifesto

Yes, this was a main inspiration for my open table D&D Meetup.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;10601501. Make a game that can be played casually.

I've introduced a lot of people to D&D who had fun the first couple sessions, then dropped out when they realized this is the kind of thing that goes on for years with no real "end."

I agree with this.  And I think a lot of it is creating an expectation that you have to be there every session.

Quote from: Razor 007;1060152Find a way to have a fun 2 hour session.  4 hours is a hard sell to most people who haven't played before.

Agreed.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1060160?

I never see people quit knitting because they never reach the "end of knitting".
I can understand that someone might not be interested in a whole campaign right off the bat. A first adventure should probably have a clear goal and a path to reach it in a session or two.

But at the same time, when you knit you're done with that thing reasonably quickly.  And then you can start a new thing, or not.

Quote from: AsenRG;1060170One-shots have been a thing for decades now;).

Open table, meaner "we play with whoever shows up" and no more rules crunch than they want to handle, is the way to go. That, and presenting a living world which reacts dynamically to the actions, for good and ill.

Open table is a great thing.  "Sure, come play, whenever you want.  And come back whenever you want.  No pressure."

As far as crunch, I think the ideal situation is a game which can be played in a way that the players can describe what their characters do in terms of the game world, and leave the mechanics to someone else (the GM, likely).  Sure, they'll learn the mechanics over time, but "just tell me what you're doing" is a great way to make things accessible.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1060325This thread made me think about Justin Alexander's blog post about open tables, and how to approach casual commitment players.

https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/38643/roleplaying-games/open-table-manifesto

Agreed.  Open tables also have the benefit of being really, really resilient campaign structures.  An open table doesn't die because one key player quits, or even two or three.

I run games in a bar and encourage anyone to join it. Works well and I get paid to do it.

Moving beyond fantasy and d&d can help along with the two hour session.

I am running Aces & Eights at a western convention and I'm running the skirmish rules for it with a western town I built based on the lost dutchman's mine. It's a two hour scenario.

Quote from: S'mon;1060245I only have the physical endurance for about 4 hours at a time, add another half hour for eating, so 12.30-5pm or 1.30-6pm. Online I prefer 3 hours tops, running Saturdays 08.30-11.15 or so.

Feeling a bit sad now as yesterday we lost the Meetup venue I'd been using for the past year, putting my D&D Meetup pretty much on hold unless/until can get another venue. :(

Have you looked into local libraries. My first real playing of D&D was with a group that rented out an office meeting room every weekend for like 1$ per hour of use. Probably costs more now but that is something to investigate.

Other options are similar but usually more costly. Restaurants for example. Theres one in easy walking distance with a gaming room that can be rented. Have not checked the price yet. But some do have rentable rooms. Apparently locally there is a venue that specializes in providing meeting rooms. Have not looked into it as seems for larger evends. But may be an avenue to look into locally for you too.

Quote from: Aglondir;1060208Is that available for the GP or just for Kickstarter backers?

Currently only in the hands of KS participants, but should be available to everyone fairly soon. If you are curious and in a rush, it isn't hard to find a copy of the original.

I've had good success with a number of the suggestions already stated:

Running a game with an easy entry bar. 10 - 15 minutes to generate a character is my goal, even for people who have never RPG'd.

Shorter gaming sessions. I find 3 hours is the sweet spot. Just long enough for fulfilling excitement, and short enough to keep a weekly game consistently actually weekly.

Allowing technology. ... but playing a game that's fast enough to make distraction unlikely, and simple enough that tech doesn't really help anyway.

And the biggest score of all for me with regards to attracting new players has been:

Starting a game at your place of employment. If you don't happen to own your own bar, sell it to the boss as a team-building activity. Every new employee will not only be fodder, it becomes an attractive way to get to know your coworkers and be "part of the crew". My boss (who does not herself join the game) nudges me if I ever neglect to invite a new employee to the "office D&D game".

It's difficult to get people to agree to the time commitment, these days.


You must remember that D&D spread like wildfire back in the days before the internet and smartphones.  Virtually everyone is walking around now with more computing power than NASA used to get to the moon in 1969.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;10601501. Make a game that can be played casually.

I've introduced a lot of people to D&D who had fun the first couple sessions, then dropped out when they realized this is the kind of thing that goes on for years with no real "end."

This is why I have an open game table at the games club, but for a fixed term of 12 weeks normally.

At the Free RPG Day this year I got 2-3 people who hadn't gamed for twenty years. Having AD&D1e on offer, it was something familiar to them so they felt more comfortable coming back than if it'd been GURPS4e or something. Likewise with my Classic Traveller open game table, 2 guys who'd not played for 20 years. And both these games and others have attracted both complete newbies and those who'd played other games but not these before.

Having a game club helps - it'd be much harder to get people in if it were my house. And then having an open game table. This is partly an attitude of GM and players, "hi, sit down, this is how you roll up a character, use my dice," and also partly the way the game is structured, it has to be fairly loose and casual, able to survive players coming and going. With my last AD&D1e open game table, there were I think 13 different players in and out, half of whom came several times. We had to keep it casual. No Dragonlance.

Alexander is a piece of shit.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1060927Alexander is a piece of shit.

Greetings!

Pundit, who is Alexander? Why do you think he is a piece of shit? Is he some SJW stuffed animal moron?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I disagree on the time commitment issue being insurmountable.

Boardgames are kicking ass these days and plenty of Meetups play 2-3 games at a sitting for 3+ hours.

As for the technology issue, too many people are have become screen zombies BUT there is a backlash and many people want to disconnect and do something in meatspace with other meat people at least once per week. RPGs are great for those people.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1060940I disagree on the time commitment issue being insurmountable.

Boardgames are kicking ass these days and plenty of Meetups play 2-3 games at a sitting for 3+ hours.

As for the technology issue, too many people are have become screen zombies BUT there is a backlash and many people want to disconnect and do something in meatspace with other meat people at least once per week. RPGs are great for those people.

It's not hours-per-session. It's sessions-to-conclusion that's the roadblock. Games, by definition, have end states; tabletop RPGs don't get there until you run out of practical playable space, which takes years to reach, and that's if you're doing things as they are commonly done now and not as they were in the old days. Board Games don't have that problem; you show up, play for an evening, and you're done. You can go again or not and it won't do any harm to anyone else's ability to play.

We're seeing this happen again in the virtual space; the decline of MMORPGs (the virtual world counterpart to tabletop RPGs) centers around that commitment issue, and it's for the same reason: it takes too damn long to finish, assuming that you CAN finish, and thus why more MMOs fail (and those that endure are iterating away that commitment issue step by step). Drop-in/drop-out group play does reliably work, but take too many people to do a thing or take too long to get the job done and folks bail for something friendlier to their sense of entertainment.

In both cases, you're asking people to make work-like commitments for entertainment purposes, and that shit does not fly- especially when there is a plethora of compelling alternatives that scratch the itch well enough without demanding scheduling your fun over long periods of time. Just as most people have no stomach for top-end raiding in World of Warcraft, most people have no stomach for set-schedule TRPG play no matter how much they otherwise may enjoy the experience.

You want to fix this? Regress harder to the old ways, with open tables and multiple PCs per player, and you'll get them back. They'll come when it's convenient, not when it's commanded.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1060927Alexander is a piece of shit.

And yet his contributions have been more useful to my actual gaming than yours, including your comment here.

Quote from: SHARK;1060939Pundit, who is Alexander? Why do you think he is a piece of shit? Is he some SJW stuffed animal moron?

No, he's not. Neither is Ron Edwards, who if anything is as un PC as you can get. Didn't stop Pundit from having a hate on for him.

Despite his cries of defending principles Pundit is ultimately obsessed with his personal vendettas, and in this way is no better than any other SJW. He has the right idea on many things, but he's also the kind of toxic advocate we need to call out in the same way people who embrace the label SJW unironically need to call out Anita and Zoe. Because we're not going to make any progress if those are the folks defining our movements, and the fact they're so eager to do so should be a warning sign.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1060960And yet his contributions have been more useful to my actual gaming than yours

That's a bit like saying "Matt Easton knows more about swords than you do" - it's a pretty high bar to get over!

AFAICT Pundit and Alexander hate each other equally and take every opportunity to slag each other off, whereas most of Pundit's many targets just ignore him. I have no idea what the original source of this particular hate was but they both can be obnoxious. About equally obnoxious, though as you say, Alexander has probably contributed more, depending on exactly how much of Pundit's advice to Mearls made it into 5e.

Quote from: Razor 007;1060472It's difficult to get people to agree to the time commitment, these days.


You must remember that D&D spread like wildfire back in the days before the internet and smartphones.  Virtually everyone is walking around now with more computing power than NASA used to get to the moon in 1969.

Anybody with their nose in a smartphone probably won't be a good player anyway.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;1060958We're seeing this happen again in the virtual space; the decline of MMORPGs (the virtual world counterpart to tabletop RPGs) centers around that commitment issue, and it's for the same reason: it takes too damn long to finish, assuming that you CAN finish, and thus why more MMOs fail (and those that endure are iterating away that commitment issue step by step). Drop-in/drop-out group play does reliably work, but take too many people to do a thing or take too long to get the job done and folks bail for something friendlier to their sense of entertainment.

I quit World of Warcraft because of the move away from time commitment. To be specific, the Looking For Raid and Looking For Dungeon features make it very easy to find a group of random people to run a raid or dungeon. But it also replaces the need for a guild to co-ordinate raids and dungeons. And so with no need for a guild, I had my reason for playing WoW removed, and quit.

QuoteIn both cases, you're asking people to make work-like commitments for entertainment purposes, and that shit does not fly- especially when there is a plethora of compelling alternatives that scratch the itch well enough without demanding scheduling your fun over long periods of time. Just as most people have no stomach for top-end raiding in World of Warcraft, most people have no stomach for set-schedule TRPG play no matter how much they otherwise may enjoy the experience.

I have to make time commitments for most of my entertainment. It is possible, and I did for a long time, to just play video games. They're far more convenient. But video games and movies just don't scratch the itch of something like D&D or X-Wing Miniatures.
If you play on any kind of league or group, (softball, renisannce, LARP, yoga, tiddlywinks, bowling) you're going to have to commit some regular time to it. Open table techniques can make this more palatable for new players, but in the end, you're either going to play a lot of casual RPG, or get into a campaign. I'm all for encouraging people to play and accomadating their time needs, but they eventually have to get the hell out of the house and schlep their bods down the street to wherever the group is playing.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1060980I quit World of Warcraft because of the move away from time commitment. To be specific, the Looking For Raid and Looking For Dungeon features make it very easy to find a group of random people to run a raid or dungeon. But it also replaces the need for a guild to co-ordinate raids and dungeons. And so with no need for a guild, I had my reason for playing WoW removed, and quit.

That's funny. I detest LFR/LFG because the quality of the players in pick-up groups/raids *blows*. I play to do "hard" content (it's an MMO kids, nothing is hard - but tell that to casual players that dick around and want to only press random buttons for "fun" and you'll get verbally abused) , with other people that want that same challenge.

This is analogous to TTRPG players that want to join my campaigns but only want to play one-shots and/or can only commit to a single four-hour session per month. Nope - I play weekly. I play for a minimum of 8-hrs in a stretch. I run campaigns that aim for years in length. But aside from the inevitable sensitive male-feminist that found my games "too intense" my general method has good results.

(https://i.imgflip.com/2kht2s.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/2kht2s) (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)


Raiding Guilds in WoW are exactly like *good* gaming groups. They require cultivation and commitment. I'm of the mind that this problem of "Attracting Casual Gamers" is one that isn't a problem at all. It's the natural order of things when it comes to group-activities. It requires people of like-mind and like desire to want high-quality things. I can spend 4-minutes grinding and brewing the best coffee in the world or I can stare at my phone while a Keurig K-Cup shits out crappy coffee in less than 1-minute, that someone who is actively un-invested in coffee, out of general ignorance or discernment, and fulfill the same perceived need.

They are not necessarily the same. Just like because you get three friends to film you babbling into your mic (https://youtu.be/4LfJnj66HVQ) isn't the same thing as actual musicians getting together to make Van Halen (https://youtu.be/ShP-IyJKcTo) in the garage (nevermind that they're AWESOME players in general). They require different things for different reasons. One is *easier* than the other. One is more convenient than the other. One is far more prone to crash than that other. But only one of these is capable of achieving certain qualities that the other simply, mechanically, cannot.

I have no evidence that easy-mode keeps players playing longer. I have a lot of evidence that hard-mode does. As I have three groups of different players that I now have been GMing for *multiple* decades with some filtering in and out at various points (thanks technology!). And the GM's in these groups all do it a little different - but are in it for the same reasons and have the same goals.

My only reliable answer to this is: Become a good GM. Run good games. Do epic stuff organically - not because a module spells it out for you. Make epic players that want to do epic stuff - even if it's low-key. They will become Epic GM's.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1060980I have to make time commitments for most of my entertainment. It is possible, and I did for a long time, to just play video games. They're far more convenient. But video games and movies just don't scratch the itch of something like D&D or X-Wing Miniatures.
If you play on any kind of league or group, (softball, renisannce, LARP, yoga, tiddlywinks, bowling) you're going to have to commit some regular time to it. Open table techniques can make this more palatable for new players, but in the end, you're either going to play a lot of casual RPG, or get into a campaign. I'm all for encouraging people to play and accomadating their time needs, but they eventually have to get the hell out of the house and schlep their bods down the street to wherever the group is playing.

Yep. And they have to make the same decisions everyone else does with their hobbies. Go big or go home. I choose to go big. Most people that dabble in TTRPG's do what you're currently doing with video-games... it's sliding off their radar of importance *because* they've never gotten the Itch that TTRPG's gave you. That doesn't happen from no-where. That's not going to happen because you ran through a sad-sack session of Adventure League's "Dungeon of the Mad Mage". It happens when you play that game that rocks your world. Challenges your assumptions about what the game can be. You need a GM that has a D.O.N.G. Blackbelt that wants their games to get "there" and stay "there". It becomes the Unscratchable Itch.

It's the Surfer's "Stoke". It's the "Zone". To bring people into gaming and keep them there - they need to touch this or they'll dwindle away. For most people, I think this is okay - because they probably are not that invested anyhow which is how most people approach their lives in one form or another. The key is finding those that want to be invested.

TTRPG's for me is like other people's Softball League. Bowling. Competitive Hula-hooping. I take it as my serious entertainment hobby. My wife and children all understand this - because I've made it clear, it's part of my life. I make zero apologies for it. When I'm placed into cryonic suspension my dice will be floating around -320F (-195C) with me.

Quote from: tenbones;1061014I have no evidence that easy-mode keeps players playing longer. I have a lot of evidence that hard-mode does. As I have three groups of different players that I now have been GMing for *multiple* decades with some filtering in and out at various points (thanks technology!). And the GM's in these groups all do it a little different - but are in it for the same reasons and have the same goals.

I'd agree with that.

But there's a difference between how to keep people involved, and how to get them involved.  That's the whole thing with player acquisition - what are the needs of new players, and how can you meet them, while over time providing for the needs of long-term players?  Are long term players willing to heavily commit time and schedule to play a game, because to them, the rewards are worth it?  Of course they are, and do.

But if you take a new player, and have this conversation:

Player: "I wanna play D&D, mind if I come?"
GM: "Sure!  It's four hours every Saturday, and you're expected to be there no matter what.  We'll see you then!"
Player: "But... I don't even know if I like it yet...."

... do you think that player is going to play?

You play WoW.  Great.  I'm in the MMO business myself.  What time commitment does being in your raiding guild have?  Is that the time commitment you started with on your first MMO?  I'm willing to bet it's not.

Quote from: tenbones;1061014That's funny. I detest LFR/LFG because the quality of the players in pick-up groups/raids *blows*. I play to do "hard" content (it's an MMO kids, nothing is hard - but tell that to casual players that dick around and want to only press random buttons for "fun" and you'll get verbally abused) , with other people that want that same challenge.

This is analogous to TTRPG players that want to join my campaigns but only want to play one-shots and/or can only commit to a single four-hour session per month. Nope - I play weekly. I play for a minimum of 8-hrs in a stretch. I run campaigns that aim for years in length. But aside from the inevitable sensitive male-feminist that found my games "too intense" my general method has good results.

(https://i.imgflip.com/2kht2s.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/2kht2s) (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)


Raiding Guilds in WoW are exactly like *good* gaming groups. They require cultivation and commitment. I'm of the mind that this problem of "Attracting Casual Gamers" is one that isn't a problem at all. It's the natural order of things when it comes to group-activities. It requires people of like-mind and like desire to want high-quality things. I can spend 4-minutes grinding and brewing the best coffee in the world or I can stare at my phone while a Keurig K-Cup shits out crappy coffee in less than 1-minute, that someone who is actively un-invested in coffee, out of general ignorance or discernment, and fulfill the same perceived need.

They are not necessarily the same. Just like because you get three friends to film you babbling into your mic (https://youtu.be/4LfJnj66HVQ) isn't the same thing as actual musicians getting together to make Van Halen (https://youtu.be/ShP-IyJKcTo) in the garage (nevermind that they're AWESOME players in general). They require different things for different reasons. One is *easier* than the other. One is more convenient than the other. One is far more prone to crash than that other. But only one of these is capable of achieving certain qualities that the other simply, mechanically, cannot.

I have no evidence that easy-mode keeps players playing longer. I have a lot of evidence that hard-mode does. As I have three groups of different players that I now have been GMing for *multiple* decades with some filtering in and out at various points (thanks technology!). And the GM's in these groups all do it a little different - but are in it for the same reasons and have the same goals.

My only reliable answer to this is: Become a good GM. Run good games. Do epic stuff organically - not because a module spells it out for you. Make epic players that want to do epic stuff - even if it's low-key. They will become Epic GM's.




Yep. And they have to make the same decisions everyone else does with their hobbies. Go big or go home. I choose to go big. Most people that dabble in TTRPG's do what you're currently doing with video-games... it's sliding off their radar of importance *because* they've never gotten the Itch that TTRPG's gave you. That doesn't happen from no-where. That's not going to happen because you ran through a sad-sack session of Adventure League's "Dungeon of the Mad Mage". It happens when you play that game that rocks your world. Challenges your assumptions about what the game can be. You need a GM that has a D.O.N.G. Blackbelt that wants their games to get "there" and stay "there". It becomes the Unscratchable Itch.

It's the Surfer's "Stoke". It's the "Zone". To bring people into gaming and keep them there - they need to touch this or they'll dwindle away. For most people, I think this is okay - because they probably are not that invested anyhow which is how most people approach their lives in one form or another. The key is finding those that want to be invested.

TTRPG's for me is like other people's Softball League. Bowling. Competitive Hula-hooping. I take it as my serious entertainment hobby. My wife and children all understand this - because I've made it clear, it's part of my life. I make zero apologies for it. When I'm placed into cryonic suspension my dice will be floating around -320F (-195C) with me.

Greetings!

Totally spot on, Tenbones! PREACH ON, BROTHER!!! Wow, you and I totally agree on this. It's fun and surprising a bit too to find people that think the *exact* same lines of thought you have, you know? lol. Damn, brilliant, my friend.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: robiswrong;1061060But if you take a new player, and have this conversation:

Player: "I wanna play D&D, mind if I come?"
GM: "Sure!  It's four hours every Saturday, and you're expected to be there no matter what.  We'll see you then!"
Player: "But... I don't even know if I like it yet...."

Is this common? In even the most hardcore groups I've never seen someone threatened to show up. Most make concessions for important events, being sick, work, etc, etc, etc...
I'm sure there's some nuts out there who expect someone to show up for a game night the same day their grandmother died, but I'm willing to bet they're rare.

In the meanwhile, a campaign is a time commitment. I have a silly joke I make from time to time when someone flakes on a gaming session, I say they're "Washing their owl." as a comment on people who make a time commitment and then don't show. It's not the end of the world, and sometimes people just don't feel like leaving the comfortable womb of their home. I understand, I feel that way often myself.
But that still doesn't change that gaming is a time commitment, and there's no way to get around that. I mean, what are we aiming for here? Some way to play RPGs without playing them? :confused:

Quote from: tenbones;1061014That's funny. I detest LFR/LFG because the quality of the players in pick-up groups/raids *blows*. I play to do "hard" content (it's an MMO kids, nothing is hard - but tell that to casual players that dick around and want to only press random buttons for "fun" and you'll get verbally abused) , with other people that want that same challenge.

This is analogous to TTRPG players that want to join my campaigns but only want to play one-shots and/or can only commit to a single four-hour session per month. Nope - I play weekly. I play for a minimum of 8-hrs in a stretch. I run campaigns that aim for years in length. But aside from the inevitable sensitive male-feminist that found my games "too intense" my general method has good results.

(https://i.imgflip.com/2kht2s.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/2kht2s) (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)


Raiding Guilds in WoW are exactly like *good* gaming groups. They require cultivation and commitment. I'm of the mind that this problem of "Attracting Casual Gamers" is one that isn't a problem at all. It's the natural order of things when it comes to group-activities. It requires people of like-mind and like desire to want high-quality things. I can spend 4-minutes grinding and brewing the best coffee in the world or I can stare at my phone while a Keurig K-Cup shits out crappy coffee in less than 1-minute, that someone who is actively un-invested in coffee, out of general ignorance or discernment, and fulfill the same perceived need.

They are not necessarily the same. Just like because you get three friends to film you babbling into your mic (https://youtu.be/4LfJnj66HVQ) isn't the same thing as actual musicians getting together to make Van Halen (https://youtu.be/ShP-IyJKcTo) in the garage (nevermind that they're AWESOME players in general). They require different things for different reasons. One is *easier* than the other. One is more convenient than the other. One is far more prone to crash than that other. But only one of these is capable of achieving certain qualities that the other simply, mechanically, cannot.

I have no evidence that easy-mode keeps players playing longer. I have a lot of evidence that hard-mode does. As I have three groups of different players that I now have been GMing for *multiple* decades with some filtering in and out at various points (thanks technology!). And the GM's in these groups all do it a little different - but are in it for the same reasons and have the same goals.

My only reliable answer to this is: Become a good GM. Run good games. Do epic stuff organically - not because a module spells it out for you. Make epic players that want to do epic stuff - even if it's low-key. They will become Epic GM's.




Yep. And they have to make the same decisions everyone else does with their hobbies. Go big or go home. I choose to go big. Most people that dabble in TTRPG's do what you're currently doing with video-games... it's sliding off their radar of importance *because* they've never gotten the Itch that TTRPG's gave you. That doesn't happen from no-where. That's not going to happen because you ran through a sad-sack session of Adventure League's "Dungeon of the Mad Mage". It happens when you play that game that rocks your world. Challenges your assumptions about what the game can be. You need a GM that has a D.O.N.G. Blackbelt that wants their games to get "there" and stay "there". It becomes the Unscratchable Itch.

It's the Surfer's "Stoke". It's the "Zone". To bring people into gaming and keep them there - they need to touch this or they'll dwindle away. For most people, I think this is okay - because they probably are not that invested anyhow which is how most people approach their lives in one form or another. The key is finding those that want to be invested.

TTRPG's for me is like other people's Softball League. Bowling. Competitive Hula-hooping. I take it as my serious entertainment hobby. My wife and children all understand this - because I've made it clear, it's part of my life. I make zero apologies for it. When I'm placed into cryonic suspension my dice will be floating around -320F (-195C) with me.

I believe like you do about this, but people still have to start somewhere in order to know that they have the same itch for something more. From reading the above, would you suggest poaching players from Organized Play games?

We don't need to attract more casuals to play RPGs. The hobby is booming. Today, in 2018, D&D has as wide a reach as it has ever had. Tabletop gaming is several years into a popularity explosion. It has never been easier to learn about D&D or to find a group.

Where we do need more work is in making it easier for DMs. D&D 5E is still a relatively complex game - more complex than 90 per cent of boardgames. And from what I've seen of the boom we're experiencing, most new players are not especially interested in the mechanics. They'll roll the type of dice you tell them, and mark off the numbers on their character sheet. But they aren't taking the books home and reading them. They aren't digging into the tactical actions available in combat, or brushing up on spells and feats.

That leaves all that work, the management of the mechanics at the table, up to the DM. And in many cases, these DMs are new themselves. So not only do they need to learn a complex game, prepare for the adventure, run all the NPCs, do their dramatic voices, and run the session, they have to babysit half the players at the table.

WotC could make things a lot easier. They could condense the mechanics of the game onto 2 page summary sheets. They could offer all kinds of play aids around running combat, levelling up, and running encounters. But for reasons which I don't really understand, they don't. Play aids are like a blind spot in RPG publishing.

Quote from: Haffrung;1061071WotC could make things a lot easier. They could condense the mechanics of the game onto 2 page summary sheets. They could offer all kinds of play aids around running combat, levelling up, and running encounters. But for reasons which I don't really understand, they don't. Play aids are like a blind spot in RPG publishing.

It seems ever since Pathfinder/4th ed, there has been a lot of play aids. Combat tracker sheets, condition cards, etc.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1061068Is this common? In even the most hardcore groups I've never seen someone threatened to show up. Most make concessions for important events, being sick, work, etc, etc, etc...
I'm sure there's some nuts out there who expect someone to show up for a game night the same day their grandmother died, but I'm willing to bet they're rare.

In the meanwhile, a campaign is a time commitment. I have a silly joke I make from time to time when someone flakes on a gaming session, I say they're "Washing their owl." as a comment on people who make a time commitment and then don't show. It's not the end of the world, and sometimes people just don't feel like leaving the comfortable womb of their home. I understand, I feel that way often myself.
But that still doesn't change that gaming is a time commitment, and there's no way to get around that. I mean, what are we aiming for here? Some way to play RPGs without playing them? :confused:

Quote from: Haffrung;1061071We don't need to attract more casuals to play RPGs.

Very few people go from zero to sixty in 0.1 seconds.  We need casual players, because that's where dedicated players come from.  Almost all of us started with casual play.  You played when mom let you, and not when she didn't.  While that exact stricture doesn't apply anymore, others obligations typically do, and most rational people won't make long-term commitments on a maybe.  

I understand that many DMs aren't interested in casual, drop-in/drop-out campaigns because they don't provide an experience that builds towards something anticipated as easily or assuredly.  But that restricts the hobby to people willing to make it primary in their recreational lives.  You could make playing and running D&D as easy as breathing, but slap a "one night of your life every two weeks" sticker on the front of it, and all that's happened is the exclusion of a lot of people who have full lives.

Reading through this, I also think there needs to be a distinction between finding casual players and bringing lapsed gamers back into the hobby. They are not the same thing, and treating them as though they are is not likely to work.

Lapsed gamers are quite likely to remain lapsed gamers if casual one shots is their only option. Casual gamers are unlikely to become more serious gamers if they are given a hard sell at their introduction to gaming.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1061075Reading through this, I also think there needs to be a distinction between finding casual players and bringing lapsed gamers back into the hobby. They are not the same thing, and treating them as though they are is not likely to work.

Lapsed gamers are quite likely to remain lapsed gamers if casual one shots is their only option. Casual gamers are unlikely to become more serious gamers if they are given a hard sell at their introduction to gaming.

What we need is variable commitment.  We need structures that allow people to play at the commitment level they're willing to sink into the hobby, and switch that commitment level as their life circumstances change.

If you play hockey, you can play pickup once in a while.  Or you can join a league.  Or you can run a team in a league.  You can drop out and come back in, leave your team after a season and play pick up for a while, or then come back into a league.  You can be in multiple leagues if you want.  You can be on a team that practices.  But you can choose the level of commitment you want to put in the hobby, and get rewards appropriate to that commitment.

That's what the hobby needs, and ideally would have in a way that's easily discernible to people.

I often feel like tenbones is the Pope of "How I Like to Game" and I should probably order a picture of him, frame it and hang it in the gameroom.

"Who's that?"

"My Pope. He sets the pace. I implement his word."

"I thought this was a gaming group?"

"Maybe... for you..."

Player slowly scoots away towards the door....

Quote from: Haffrung;1061071We don't need to attract more casuals to play RPGs. The hobby is booming. Today, in 2018, D&D has as wide a reach as it has ever had. Tabletop gaming is several years into a popularity explosion. It has never been easier to learn about D&D or to find a group.

Where we do need more work is in making it easier for DMs. D&D 5E is still a relatively complex game - more complex than 90 per cent of boardgames. And from what I've seen of the boom we're experiencing, most new players are not especially interested in the mechanics. They'll roll the type of dice you tell them, and mark off the numbers on their character sheet. But they aren't taking the books home and reading them. They aren't digging into the tactical actions available in combat, or brushing up on spells and feats.

That leaves all that work, the management of the mechanics at the table, up to the DM. And in many cases, these DMs are new themselves. So not only do they need to learn a complex game, prepare for the adventure, run all the NPCs, do their dramatic voices, and run the session, they have to babysit half the players at the table.

WotC could make things a lot easier. They could condense the mechanics of the game onto 2 page summary sheets. They could offer all kinds of play aids around running combat, levelling up, and running encounters. But for reasons which I don't really understand, they don't. Play aids are like a blind spot in RPG publishing.

OK, you are concentrating on a single game when there are many more to choose from out there. Yes, D&D is the 800 pound gorilla in the room, but to ignore the rest is to ignore an entire biosphere.

Quote from: EOTB;1061074You could make playing and running D&D as easy as breathing, but slap a "one night of your life every two weeks" sticker on the front of it, and all that's happened is the exclusion of a lot of people who have full lives.

I consider biweekly to be super casual. If a person can't make it every other week, #1. Maybe they have more going on in their lives, and need to prioritize that stuff over pretending to be an elf, and #2. When they can show up, have a pregen/have the DM level up their character/grab an NPC and tag along with the main group for a session.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1061090I consider biweekly to be super casual. If a person can't make it every other week, #1. Maybe they have more going on in their lives, and need to prioritize that stuff over pretending to be an elf, and #2. When they can show up, have a pregen/have the DM level up their character/grab an NPC and tag along with the main group for a session.

How many married people in families where both parents work full-time, raising kids who participate in extra-curricular activities, are in your group? Because that describes 4 of the 6 people in my group, including myself. Consequently, even with quorum set as DM + 4 players, we find it difficult to meet even twice a month. With commutes, players scattered across a 825 km/2 city, weekday kids' activities, and some early morning work shifts, weeknights are impossible. Even Friday nights are difficult. Most of us do family stuff during the day on weekends, so that leaves Sat nights. One player is in a hockey league. Another has season's tickets to lacrosse. Another runs his own business. We have partners and active social lives outside gaming, so we go out to restaurants and bars, host parties, have BBQs etc. on the weekend. Then there are family commitments with parents and siblings - birthday parties, holidays, dinners.

We all try to make D&D a priority in our lives. And we prefer ongoing campaigns. But we simply can't manage to coordinate more than 1 or 2 sessions a month. That's just reality for a lot of gamers who have families today.

Quote from: Haffrung;1061149How many married people in families where both parents work full-time, raising kids who participate in extra-curricular activities, are in your group? Because that describes 4 of the 6 people in my group, including myself. Consequently, even with quorum set as DM + 4 players, we find it difficult to meet even twice a month. With commutes, players scattered across a 825 km/2 city, weekday kids' activities, and some early morning work shifts, weeknights are impossible. Even Friday nights are difficult. Most of us do family stuff during the day on weekends, so that leaves Sat nights. One player is in a hockey league. Another has season's tickets to lacrosse. Another runs his own business. We have partners and active social lives outside gaming, so we go out to restaurants and bars, host parties, have BBQs etc. on the weekend. Then there are family commitments with parents and siblings - birthday parties, holidays, dinners.

We all try to make D&D a priority in our lives...

It doesn't sound like you try very hard. :p

Edit: Personally these days I prefer to run open campaigns where people just turn up when they can; I don't expect a high level of commitment - except from me. But I can run games every week because I make it a priority.

Quote from: Haffrung;1061149How many married people in families where both parents work full-time, raising kids who participate in extra-curricular activities, are in your group? Because that describes 4 of the 6 people in my group, including myself. Consequently, even with quorum set as DM + 4 players, we find it difficult to meet even twice a month. With commutes, players scattered across a 825 km/2 city, weekday kids' activities, and some early morning work shifts, weeknights are impossible. Even Friday nights are difficult. Most of us do family stuff during the day on weekends, so that leaves Sat nights. One player is in a hockey league. Another has season's tickets to lacrosse. Another runs his own business. We have partners and active social lives outside gaming, so we go out to restaurants and bars, host parties, have BBQs etc. on the weekend. Then there are family commitments with parents and siblings - birthday parties, holidays, dinners.

#1. Maybe they have more going on in their lives, and need to prioritize that stuff over pretending to be an elf,

QuoteWe all try to make D&D a priority in our lives. And we prefer ongoing campaigns. But we simply can't manage to coordinate more than 1 or 2 sessions a month. That's just reality for a lot of gamers who have families today.

Then play that much. When someone I game with has a kid, we usually say bye-bye to them for a while. It takes a lot of time to take care of kids, and family is more important than games.
Sometimes they get a break and show up to game, and that's great.

#2. When they can show up, have a pregen/have the DM level up their character/grab an NPC and tag along with the main group for a session.

Maybe, to attract lapsed players now trapped in "the adulting," we should up our gamer food fair from Cheetoes and Mt. Dew to hummus w/ crudité and Chablis? :p

Lapsed player, checking in.

A lot of my "lapse" came from burnout.  I briefly moderated at an online place that was in the middle of drama/power struggles/negative behavior.  And I was no saint either.  

On top off that, I moved from a part of rural America with a surprising number of low-key role playing events to a big city.  There are still comic stores running semi regular games.  The events are a lot more expensive.  And burnout/fear from power struggles.

That burnout is mostly in my head, and mine to deal with.  But just saying.

I have delved into Play by Post, and may do so again.  I'd love to play a real time game.  So here's what's going on with me after drama induced burnout.

• The cats are herded. We can meet at a regular time.
• A chance to hang out, chat, talk, and make friends (if necessary) before the game starts. Familiarity and fun. Kind of a session 0 for us as players and humans.
• Character creation for new players is "use the core book." Not simplified or dumbed down. House rules are minimal to none. Not complicated by a library of other books or purchases.  As close as humanly possible to  whatever is in the core rulebook.

Or I need to suck it up and go to that comic book store.

Quote from: S'mon;1061155Personally these days I prefer to run open campaigns where people just turn up when they can; I don't expect a high level of commitment - except from me. But I can run games every week because I make it a priority.

Good to hear!  I was starting to think I might be the only GM reading this who didn't subscribe to the "One True Party, joined at the hip for all eternity" campaign model.

My lapsed player stories.

I played a little when I was younger with my brothers and some friends. Then around about the time of the hype surrounding the Lord of the Rings movies we managed to rustle up a group from work. That was a lot of fun and lasted until the company we were working for went under and we went our separate ways. Another lapse, and then I started listening to the Penny Arcade D&D podcasts and remembered what a great laugh it was. So I bought back in to 4th edition and set up an online game with some of my old crew. That then turned into a more regular in person game with those of us still in and around London.

First, tenbones is right, as almost always happens:).

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1060960And yet his contributions have been more useful to my actual gaming than yours, including your comment here.



No, he's not. Neither is Ron Edwards, who if anything is as un PC as you can get. Didn't stop Pundit from having a hate on for him.

Despite his cries of defending principles Pundit is ultimately obsessed with his personal vendettas, and in this way is no better than any other SJW. He has the right idea on many things, but he's also the kind of toxic advocate we need to call out in the same way people who embrace the label SJW unironically need to call out Anita and Zoe. Because we're not going to make any progress if those are the folks defining our movements, and the fact they're so eager to do so should be a warning sign.

Second, this forum needs a "like" button;).

Quote from: jeff37923;1061070I believe like you do about this, but people still have to start somewhere in order to know that they have the same itch for something more. From reading the above, would you suggest poaching players from Organized Play games?

Third, what else is Organized Play good for:D?

Quote from: trechriron;1061078I often feel like tenbones is the Pope of "How I Like to Game" and I should probably order a picture of him, frame it and hang it in the gameroom.

"Who's that?"

"My Pope. He sets the pace. I implement his word."

"I thought this was a gaming group?"

"Maybe... for you..."

Player slowly scoots away towards the door....

Poobah of the D.O.N.G.

Although Pope would be awesome! I always wanted to wear a Miter. But alas - the Poobah of the D.O.N.G. wears a crimson Fez for ceremonial purposes.

Quote from: jeff37923;1061070I believe like you do about this, but people still have to start somewhere in order to know that they have the same itch for something more. From reading the above, would you suggest poaching players from Organized Play games?

Sure! Get players wherever/whenever you can. But be prepared to cut loose those that aren't committed to playing the games you're wanting to run. I don't suggest being cruel about it. I've had players that literally have played with me for over twenty-years that I finally cut loose because they hit their investment cap and I and the others kept going. It's hard. But you have to have a standard. What *that* standard actually IS... is the rub.

I've said this before on other posts about GMing that there is this... magical moment. It's nearly impossible to plan for intially - but it's that moment when the game is just running itself. The GM is world and playing the NPC's and the PC's are doing their thing. The agenda is what has emerged from the game and everyone is just rolling. Anything is possible. The game becomes dangerous. Anything can happen. This is the moment where you as a GM can allow the game to go places you never thought the game could go and then you realize you're in the zone.

You have those moments and that's what makes players stick around. Their trust in your GMing rises because it tells them that their personal interests are not distinct from the game - or more specifically from YOU (even if they actually are - you're just playing the ball where it lands fearlessly). But that's when you start to want only those kinds of games. That becomes your standard.

The only downside I see from Organized Play folks is the penchant of having to break them from their assumptions about what they're doing vs. what you're trying to do. But I'll confess... it's become half the fun for me. That look on their face when they see your game is nowhere near as constrained and that immersion effect happens when you're feeding their character's interests.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1061181Maybe, to attract lapsed players now trapped in "the adulting," we should up our gamer food fair from Cheetoes and Mt. Dew to hummus w/ crudité and Chablis? :p

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Quote from: SHARK;1060939Greetings!

Pundit, who is Alexander? Why do you think he is a piece of shit? Is he some SJW stuffed animal moron?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Justin Alexander, who just spent a couple of weeks trolling every post I made on twitter knowingly falsely claiming I was a "self described white supremacist". And yet was protected by twitter.

Again, a complete and utter piece of shit.

To attract casual players, surely you need casual games. Pickup games with a low bar to entry and no requirement to turn up every week for the next decade. From that you might find people interested in deeper / longer campaigns.

To attract lapsed players you have to remember that people have lives that are much more interruptible now. Committing 8 hours out of a weekend is a big chunk of time, especially those with families. Shorter sessions and more flexibility on scheduling might work there. West Marches approach might work too.

There seems to be a lot of trying to force the casuals and the lapsed in to the "4 hours 3 times a week and 8 on Sundays mould" which just seems like it wouldn't work. You have to bait your hook with something the fish can digest.

Quote from: Altheus;1061763To attract casual players, surely you need casual games. Pickup games with a low bar to entry and no requirement to turn up every week for the next decade. From that you might find people interested in deeper / longer campaigns.

To attract lapsed players you have to remember that people have lives that are much more interruptible now. Committing 8 hours out of a weekend is a big chunk of time, especially those with families. Shorter sessions and more flexibility on scheduling might work there. West Marches approach might work too.

There seems to be a lot of trying to force the casuals and the lapsed in to the "4 hours 3 times a week and 8 on Sundays mould" which just seems like it wouldn't work. You have to bait your hook with something the fish can digest.

Real life absolutely happens. But if you're in that kind of position where you can't participate in what I've always considered a "normal" game - it simply tells me that you've not had that kind of game where the other pursuits/things in your life simply are of greater interest. which indicates to me the strong probability that the quality of your games are commensurate to the investment of your time.

I believe this is true of anything "casual". I rarely pursue anything casually, mainly because I want challenge. I don't play games on "Average". I don't like things "bite-sized". I don't run games to have run-of-the-mill experiences. And people that play with my group have a fantastically low attrition rate. The reason for this retention is because I don't do "casual games". "Casual players" that play in my games tend to get invested very fast - because of the way I do things. Not because of the game itself per se. I get people invested and they *want* to come play. They're excited to show up because I make the players part of everything. I always try to rise far above their expectations - it makes our gaming far from routine. That breeds excitement and danger of the unknown. It keeps them coming back week after week FOR DECADES. Is it a little more work? Sure. But the reward isn't a casual reward.

"Casual" doesn't do that. Casual is the "droning snooze alarm" that exists only to distract your from whatever is slightly less casual than what you're already doing: sleeping.

Mind you - I'm speaking about pursuing something casually. I'm not saying you can't be casual about anything. I'm saying that for the purposes of attracting lapsed players and *creating* players that will go for the long-haul, you have to pursue things more than just "casually".

And this is why I say it's not really a problem. Because if you're not willing to step up to the plate and run games a little more "involved" - then you'll get exactly what you're putting into it. I believe this is true of all things: Relationships, Hobbies, Jobs, Achieving Godhood etc.

Quote from: S'mon;1060964AFAICT Pundit and Alexander hate each other equally and take every opportunity to slag each other off, whereas most of Pundit's many targets just ignore him. I have no idea what the original source of this particular hate was but they both can be obnoxious. About equally obnoxious, though as you say, Alexander has probably contributed more, depending on exactly how much of Pundit's advice to Mearls made it into 5e.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1061746Justin Alexander, who just spent a couple of weeks trolling every post I made on twitter knowingly falsely claiming I was a "self described white supremacist". And yet was protected by twitter.

Again, a complete and utter piece of shit.

He's not wrong.

I just checked his #Tweets and didn't get ten in before he was retweeting Mags (baseball bat to the teeth) Visaggo promoting Mark (tortious interference) Waid's legal defense fund and calling Masamune Shirow a misogynist. And that's before I found the ones mentioned above, where The Pundit blocked Justin and then continued to argue on Justin's feed.

What the fuck is wrong with you people?

Considering these are the reasons I'm leaving this hobby, I suspect they aren't the way to attract casual and lapsed players either.

Quote from: tenbones;1061816Real life absolutely happens. But if you're in that kind of position where you can't participate in what I've always considered a "normal" game - it simply tells me that you've not had that kind of game where the other pursuits/things in your life simply are of greater interest. which indicates to me the strong probability that the quality of your games are commensurate to the investment of your time.

I believe this is true of anything "casual". I rarely pursue anything casually, mainly because I want challenge. I don't play games on "Average". I don't like things "bite-sized". I don't run games to have run-of-the-mill experiences. And people that play with my group have a fantastically low attrition rate. The reason for this retention is because I don't do "casual games". "Casual players" that play in my games tend to get invested very fast - because of the way I do things. Not because of the game itself per se. I get people invested and they *want* to come play. They're excited to show up because I make the players part of everything. I always try to rise far above their expectations - it makes our gaming far from routine. That breeds excitement and danger of the unknown. It keeps them coming back week after week FOR DECADES. Is it a little more work? Sure. But the reward isn't a casual reward.

"Casual" doesn't do that. Casual is the "droning snooze alarm" that exists only to distract your from whatever is slightly less casual than what you're already doing: sleeping.

Mind you - I'm speaking about pursuing something casually. I'm not saying you can't be casual about anything. I'm saying that for the purposes of attracting lapsed players and *creating* players that will go for the long-haul, you have to pursue things more than just "casually".

And this is why I say it's not really a problem. Because if you're not willing to step up to the plate and run games a little more "involved" - then you'll get exactly what you're putting into it. I believe this is true of all things: Relationships, Hobbies, Jobs, Achieving Godhood etc.

So what do you do that invests them so much? Because the way you talk reminds me of a GM friend of mine and all his obsession with getting everyone invested into his novel-turned-game did was make them all quit.

Not that I think that's what you're doing but just insisting "play my game harder" doesn't work.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1062146So what do you do that invests them so much? Because the way you talk reminds me of a GM friend of mine and all his obsession with getting everyone invested into his novel-turned-game did was make them all quit.

Not that I think that's what you're doing but just insisting "play my game harder" doesn't work.

1) I build a sandbox. I consider what are the big conflicts in the sandbox. What are the big "setpieces" which the PC's will be able to fool-around with. And by Big I mean at the 60k-foot level. Because my sandboxes are big.Big.BIIIIIG. Nothing is off the table. From gutter-rat that eats dead-rats in the alley - to "Which Gods are going to be in the fore-front of the game via their minions? IF any at all."

2) I create connective tissue between those set-pieces as needed. I have notes and stat-blocs on relevant NPC's for the starting location(s) once I've figured out where I'm starting things. Those NPC's *always* have their own basic agendas. Depending on the importance of the NPC's those agendas can range from "basic sure my business operates smoothly." to "I will conquer this land, and kill the Gods of my enemies." Then I create all the fun independent set-pieces to fill in blanks. Factions, other NPC's as needed, organizations within those factions, more NPC's, and then I connect sinew between those things. Natural conflicts will *always* emerge from these things. Anything potentially interesting - I jot those notes down. From this skeleton with lots of loose meat hanging on its bones, I think of some interesting starting adventures that allows the PC to potentially interact with as much of it as possible.

3) DEEP Session Zero. I sit with my players days, or weeks, in advance talking about character ideas. I'm both selling them on the game, and polling them for their interest in certain kinds of "themes" - often without them knowing. Because a lot of the context of the sandbox is generated by those natural conflicts. For example, if I determine one of my organizations is at war with another - on a nation-scale, I have to determine when we start, is it a hot-war, border skirmishing? Do I want to do a military campaign? Mercenary soldiers? There will inevitably by smuggling operations in play - espionage as well. So I might pitch that aspect to the players as potential concept for their PC's. Once I figure out where I'm starting the game, those relevant conflicts, big or small, will let me know what I need to tell the players. When they start telling me what they're interested in playing based on my pitch - I start making adjustments accordingly in order to really drill down on those aspects of the sandbox to make sure I have that stuff covered.

4) Char-Gen. When Char-Gen happens - I already know what everyone is generally playing, then I drill down with the players on their character. I let them tell me what they want for their backgrounds and I plug that into the sandbox as close as possible. This is usually when I'm explaining to people that want to play Snowflakes why/what the relevance of their snowflake is in this game - and it usually comes with very significant strings. Nothing exists out of context with the sandbox. Your Feats, Your edges, Your class, Your background, Your age, Your nationality, Your character's general disposition on items pertinent to the game. I decide what is commonly known - and if anyone has chosen something, believes something that is an outlier to that, I make it known. I don't discourage anyone from doing/trying anything per se. I make it known what the ramifications of those choices at the start.

This way - I make sure everyone is getting what they want. I'm pitching a campaign. They're pitching me their characters. We do a little horse-trading on ideas. We all adjust our expectations accordingly, but we all have buy-in and are generally excited because I've winnowed out the bad ideas, and things they're not interested in (it doesn't mean I remove those things from the sandbox, I just don't emphasize them at the start. NEVER toss an idea that can't be utilized later with some adjustment).

The end result is when the game starts everyone knows who they are, what their characters knows, whom their character is beholden to (if any), why they're in a particular location when we start. Which of the other PC's are friends or strangers. There is rarely if ever a "You all are sitting in a tavern when..." unless your PC's actively go to a tavern to sit in there and wait for something to happen. And it might be nothing does.

But on my side of the fence - I know all the wheels that are in motion. And I'm putting all those hundreds of machinations organically into motion, around the PC's, "off camera" from the PC's, with the PC's. There is investment *before* the game starts because in large part the players have already committed to being excited by SOME aspect of the game assuming they accepted the pitch at all. That is the core of what I build on.

Everything else is basic GMing - feed the players senses, give them all the conflict that the game demands. Make non-combat stuff matter. Be as faithful to your NPC's as you are to your player's PC's. Do not be afraid to kill any of them if the situation demands it. If Almighty RNGesus says otherwise - so be it. Reward good play handsomely (I don't worry about bad play - that inevitably leads to your PC's death). World is in motion. The Players react to the World via their PC's. The World reacts to the PC's. The cycle feeds itself.

This is the Way of the D.O.N.G.

... plus hummus & crudité. :)

Thus is the way of the D.O.N.G.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1062141Considering these are the reasons I'm leaving this hobby, I suspect they aren't the way to attract casual and lapsed players either.

Because a couple of nuts are arguing on twitter? I doubt many RPGers even know about the existence of Pundit or Alexander, much less follow them on twitter.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1062257Because a couple of nuts are arguing on twitter? I doubt many RPGers even know about the existence of Pundit or Alexander, much less follow them on twitter.

Unless they're harrassing you personally, I think it's silly to leave a hobby because some other people are being jerks.

Most people who play games have no idea what goes on in obscure little corners of the internet. Maybe it's time for a twitter break.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1062253... plus hummus & crudité. :)

Thus is the way of the D.O.N.G.

I do enjoy hummus. But it gets old after a while. While the D.O.N.G. has no official stance on vegetarians, crudité is for rabbits.

Quote from: tenbones;1062353I do enjoy hummus. But it gets old after a while. While the D.O.N.G. has no official stance on vegetarians, crudité is for rabbits.

D.O.N.G. ?

Quote from: Rhedyn;1062370D.O.N.G. ?

Department Of Neutral Gamemasters

Not to be confused with the online anti-Furry organization D.O.N.G.L.- Dicks Only Nuking Gerbil-Lovers.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1062257Because a couple of nuts are arguing on twitter? I doubt many RPGers even know about the existence of Pundit or Alexander, much less follow them on twitter.

Well, definitely not Alexander.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1062257Because a couple of nuts are arguing on twitter? I doubt many RPGers even know about the existence of Pundit or Alexander, much less follow them on twitter.

But that's the thing, it's not just a couple of nuts anymore, it's almost every game designer, forum mod, and event runner I know of at this point. Great that your average gamer doesn't know or give a damn, but they're not the ones in control or setting policies.

This shitshow has metastasized into an unavoidable mess, and I'm tired of it.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1063336Great that your average gamer doesn't know or give a damn, but they're not the ones in control or setting policies.

In control of what? Setting policies on what?

None of this affects whether I can get players for my game session, or what we do at these game sessions.

There's actually a similar drama going on in the barbell training world at the moment. And none of the lifters in my gym know anything about it unless I tell them, and even when I do, most aren't interested.

Let us not feed their delusions of relevance.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1063342There's actually a similar drama going on in the barbell training world at the moment.

And HEMA. It's everywhere. SJWS have to control *everything*; they can never stop.

Quote from: S'mon;1063344And HEMA. It's everywhere. SJWS have to control *everything*; they can never stop.

What they will accomplish with their efforts to change the RPG industry; is that they will inspire the creation of games that appeal to them, but nobody else.  Then, if D&D / PF Special Snowflake Edition isn't as commercially successful as prior editions; they will blame it on our hateful bias.

Quote from: S'mon;1063344And HEMA. It's everywhere. SJWS have to control *everything*; they can never stop.

Which is why...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jln3mi0vfJU

Quote from: Razor 007;1063444What they will accomplish with their efforts to change the RPG industry; is that they will inspire the creation of games that appeal to them, but nobody else.  Then, if D&D / PF Special Snowflake Edition isn't as commercially successful as prior editions; they will blame it on our hateful bias.

Just like how the comic book industry has ruined itself.

Quote from: S'mon;1063344And HEMA. It's everywhere. SJWS have to control *everything*; they can never stop.

To my mind it's like the thing of our local councils doing all this crazy stuff in case someone gets hurts or discriminated against. They spend $10 million to avoid a $100,000 lawsuit payout. They'll pay an extra $9.9 million just to avoid the drama and bad publicity - it is after all someone else's money.

So I think the genuine SJWs are quite small in number, but for every SJW there are 100 people desperate to avoid any bad publicity or drama. Social Justice Warriors, like Conservative Justice Warriors, are just another version of the customer service nightmare, the woman with the I'd Like To Speak To The Manager haircut. It's the 1% of customers who use up 50% of your time.

Everyone panics lest they trigger someone and meanwhile people are running the Adventurer's League stuff for 5e, or open game tables like mine - and people of all ages, genders, sexualities and ethnic backgrounds are just sitting down, rolling up a character and playing. That's how you attract people to games, and that's how you're inclusive: you just lay the books on the table in a game club and invite people to play.

As I've said before, this stuff is really taking off, we're seeing numbers of people gaming we've not seen since the 80s. And it's not because of X-cards or posters up with Tolerance & Inclusivity Policies, it's not because the warrior woman on page 123 is mentioned as being a transwoman. It's because people are sitting down at game tables and inviting people to play. And the modern world of social media has left people friendless and lonely and wanting face-to-face contact. So they come along and play.

The major deficiency is the lack of small talk and snacks. After 10-20 years of sitting around at home alone at their keyboards, people have forgotten how to socialise. They no longer know how to just shoot the shit with people, or that eating and sharing food is a basic way human beings bond with each-other.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1063446Just like how the comic book industry has ruined itself.

Comic books were already ruined by adult collectors, which turned a kid's fun thing in SuperShockEdgyEmoCool horseshit. Fat neckbeards ruined comic books long before SJWs got to them.

Comic-Con is one of the few places that fat people go to where there is no food.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1063454Comic-Con is one of the few places that fat people go to where there is no food.

Someone should make a banner of that, and then put it up at Comic-con.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1063447Social Justice Warriors, like Conservative Justice Warriors, are just another version of the customer service nightmare, the woman with the I'd Like To Speak To The Manager haircut. It's the 1% of customers who use up 50% of your time.

My god, that is the best analogy for the culture wars that I have ever read. Bravo! BRAVO! *Fiercely Applauds*

It's certainly true that the vast majority of gamers are not involved in the Culture War in any way. The problem is that the SJW contingent, despite being no more than 8% of the overall population, have an inordinate level of power and influence.