TheRPGSite

Spun out of the Grimdark thread...

For those of you that run Horror games, or games with elements of Horror in them. Do you go for WTF scary? Or campy horror? How do your games hold up under the dark clouds of super-scary games?

I've spent years trying to sell my players on Cthulu - but they veto it. So I have to sneak it in without actually saying CTHULU!!! Ironically they tend to enjoy the dread when I do it... but only in doses. Anyone run something longterm like this? Or is it Evil Dead campy horror?

Isn't it the point of a horror scenario to be scary? I wouldn't say that horror elements in my games are never campy, but they are almost never so on purpose.

I'm always going for the scary over the campy.
As always it depends on the group. If the Players are in the mood to be scared, willing to play it that way... then scares will work.
If they're just inclined to make jokes at everything it doesn't matter what you throw at them.
Most of the people I'm willing to run games for are horror fans like me, so it works out well.

Also, I think 'scary' works better with smaller groups. Maybe it's just the lessened chance of drawing a joker in the crowd but I'm thinking fewer people is less comfortable armor against the frights.
I noticed in some online CoC games we played recently that when a chunk of the group didn't make it for the regular campaign session the GM ran a one-shot with just a couple of us and it was waaaaaay scarier than when the full group was present.
Then again, I've generally preferred smaller groups anyway.

I incorporated part of the AR/Creepypasta "Ted the Caver" story in one of my AD&D games and it was wildly successful in scaring the crap out of a player.  And she's an adult, about my age.  So...yeah, I'd say "Scary".

Scary depends on immersion and immersion depends heavily on players making the choice to suspend their disbelief. Viewers get scared at horror movies, because they want to be spooked and get bummed when the movie doesn't spook them.

If you have players who love scary stuff and want that experience, you can achieve scary stuff more than campy stuff. But some players really love horror for the camp and for them, the Army of Darkness level of campy horror (not even Evil Dead level) is the most fun.

Of course, as with so many other aspects, open communications with players is key.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;833441I incorporated part of the AR/Creepypasta "Ted the Caver" story in one of my AD&D games and it was wildly successful in scaring the crap out of a player.

I had to go and read that of course... good stuff! I'm curious how you implemented it... I'd definitely borrow that scene of the rope being pulled back into the darkness.
Thanks for pointing out that creepy tale.

I generally run D&D in various iterations and horror there is generally campy, I can't really maintain a mood of creeping dread without breaking the tension, and class/level systems are really poorly suited to scary horror anyway. I can do scary-horror ok with Call of Cthulu, but haven't run it since ca 1997.

Quote from: Simlasa;833463I had to go and read that of course... good stuff! I'm curious how you implemented it... I'd definitely borrow that scene of the rope being pulled back into the darkness.
Thanks for pointing out that creepy tale.

The characters were exploring a dungeon area and passed a shaft much like the one that led to the haunted cave (the one Ted had to crawl horizontally through), the only person that could fit through was the half-elf magic-user/thief in the party...and we go from there:

http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=551726&postcount=47

Haven't any of you had "those players" that are wisecracking through everything? And what you thought was going to be creepy-Cthulu turned into the HBO Lovecraft show with Remo Williams?

My creepiest games are actually online text based.  very little character wise-cracking.

Quote from: tenbones;833539Haven't any of you had "those players" that are wisecracking through everything?

I really try to avoid players who refuse to focus. We generally keep our games to shorter durations and stay on target but a joke now and then is fine... especially in-character.
Just as bad for me as the Players who turn up drunk or stoned or with electronic toys that compete for their attention.

As a player, I make an effort to buy in to what the GM is selling and I do what I can to avoid undermining his intent.  If he is trying for serious scares, I will not get silly.  However, I can't honestly think of any circumstance where I might actually experience horror at the gaming table (other than perhaps somebody at the table emitting terrible B/O or something).  Even when it comes to scary movies most of that is the result of "shock moments" where something jumps out of the darkness.  Creepiness?  Sure...but actually horror?  I'd almost go so far as to say that it's achievement is an unreasonable expectation of an rpg.  It's a criticism that is often leveled at Call of Cthulhu - "pfft, what's so scary about the mythos?"  I'd ask that about most horror games.  What's so scary about vampires and werewolves?

Quote from: Zevious Zoquis;833563Creepiness?  Sure...but actually horror?

I dunno, I'd say I've experienced a fair number of 'horror' moments in RPGs... along with terror 'run away!' moments, dread, layers of creep. Eclipse Phase was probably more horrific for me as Player than it was for my PC... some of those Transhumanist ideas freak me out.
Again, I chalk it up mostly to my desire to be scared... wanting to be horrified at situations that other Players might just charge into swinging. Without that willingness to be scared... yeah, I doubt in movies/books/games would scare me.

Quote from: tenbones;833422Spun out of the Grimdark thread...

For those of you that run Horror games, or games with elements of Horror in them. Do you go for WTF scary? Or campy horror? How do your games hold up under the dark clouds of super-scary games?

I've spent years trying to sell my players on Cthulu - but they veto it. So I have to sneak it in without actually saying CTHULU!!! Ironically they tend to enjoy the dread when I do it... but only in doses. Anyone run something longterm like this? Or is it Evil Dead campy horror?

I find that "WTF Scary!" loses its punch if you are doing it all the time. So I tend to lean more on campy and occasionally throw the players a scary adventure or two.

Quote from: Zevious Zoquis;833563As a player, I make an effort to buy in to what the GM is selling and I do what I can to avoid undermining his intent.  If he is trying for serious scares, I will not get silly.  However, I can't honestly think of any circumstance where I might actually experience horror at the gaming table (other than perhaps somebody at the table emitting terrible B/O or something).  Even when it comes to scary movies most of that is the result of "shock moments" where something jumps out of the darkness.  Creepiness?  Sure...but actually horror?  I'd almost go so far as to say that it's achievement is an unreasonable expectation of an rpg.  It's a criticism that is often leveled at Call of Cthulhu - "pfft, what's so scary about the mythos?"  I'd ask that about most horror games.  What's so scary about vampires and werewolves?

It isn't the mythos or the werewolves themselves. It is how it is handled.

I have certainly experienced it much the same way I've experienced it with a movie. It takes letting your guard down and things aligning just so. It also takes a GM who has a handle on how to do horror. But it can happen. I think a lot of people might also expect too much from the experience of Horror in movies and games. We are not talking an actual traumatic event like you are literally there being chased by a werewolf. But it is a palpably different experience from a standard night of gaming.

For me, I interpret events through my character.  So, I would look at a situation and say "yes, if I were to actually encounter a weird fungal monstrosity in a clearing of the forest at night I would be terrified, therefore my character is terrified."  But any fear I might actually feel would be a result of my not wanting to lose valuable hit points or sanity points my character might have.  In other words the feelings I actually experience revolve around meta game concerns and not actual fear or horror.  I mean I could certainly be grossed out by something really gory or whatever but I'm never sitting in my chair at the table shivering with fear or anything like that...

You need as much player buy in for Creepy scary as much as a Horror GM needs to portray it well.

The CoC 7th Ed game I'm playing is run by a Keeper that knows the rules, background well and he clearly puts a lot of work into fleshing out a scenario.
It shows, as he's a good keeper and portrays the creepy horror very well.

But like has already been said in this thread before, the players need to be part of it too with appropriate RP and getting into the mood.

Quote from: Zevious Zoquis;833581But any fear I might actually feel would be a result of my not wanting to lose valuable hit points or sanity points my character might have.  In other words the feelings I actually experience revolve around meta game concerns and not actual fear or horror.

So you can't be scared while reading a story or watching a movie because it's always in your mind that 'it's just a book/movie'?
I guess that's where immersion and imagination comes in for me... like, I was reading the 'Ted the Caver' story TheDungeonDelver mentioned and I was just totally 'there' with ted... felt the claustrophobia and the panic of unseen things in the dark. At one point I wanted to stop reading because it was getting intense... at no point did I reach for the 'it's just a story' perspective to calm myself down because that would have ruined the fun.

I would probably try for "serious" horror if anything.  But the group I play with is more about getting together and goofing around (we're all longtime friends IRL first and foremost), so I doubt anything would really scare them, because they'd be too busy joking about it.  And I'm OK with that.  We have periods of complete immersion, where I could probably, if I tried, get some creepy atmospherics going.  hard to say when those will occur, though.

Quote from: Simlasa;833608So you can't be scared while reading a story or watching a movie because it's always in your mind that 'it's just a book/movie'?
I guess that's where immersion and imagination comes in for me... like, I was reading the 'Ted the Caver' story TheDungeonDelver mentioned and I was just totally 'there' with ted... felt the claustrophobia and the panic of unseen things in the dark. At one point I wanted to stop reading because it was getting intense... at no point did I reach for the 'it's just a story' perspective to calm myself down because that would have ruined the fun.

Oh yeah of course, but I think with a book or movie- if it's good - I can get really engrossed and forget its a movie or book.  I don't find that an easy state to achieve with an rpg.  There's a lot more going on that interferes with that happening.  I suppose its not impossible, but it would take a pretty exceptional GM I think.

Quote from: tenbones;833539Haven't any of you had "those players" that are wisecracking through everything? And what you thought was going to be creepy-Cthulu turned into the HBO Lovecraft show with Remo Williams?

Yes.
Those are the players geared for Evil Dead style B-Movie Camp. They are great fun at that.

I will not play a straight Call of Cthulhu game with those players.
I would rather run a game with even just a single player who understands the atmosphere of a straight CoC game over a group full of wise-crackers.

It's simply a matter of  matching players with play-styles.

Quote from: tenbones;833422Spun out of the Grimdark thread...

For those of you that run Horror games, or games with elements of Horror in them. Do you go for WTF scary? Or campy horror? How do your games hold up under the dark clouds of super-scary games?

I've spent years trying to sell my players on Cthulu - but they veto it. So I have to sneak it in without actually saying CTHULU!!! Ironically they tend to enjoy the dread when I do it... but only in doses. Anyone run something longterm like this? Or is it Evil Dead campy horror?

I mix it up. I've run an ongoing Cthulhu game for about...I think around 5 years with mostly the same players. Sometimes its a full-on campaign, more often one shots that may or may not be losely connected.

I can scare the hell out of players. I found that out a while back. It takes the right circumstances, and the right attitude of players, but its happened a few times. Even induced a panic attack in one player unfortunately. There's reasons for this, tied up in a lot of my method and partly just who I am as a person. Since I was a teenager I've actually been told by people that I'm "scary". It always somewhat amuses me, as my mental picture of myself is pretty much Ernie from Sesame Street, but friends say I'm more like Alan Moore or Anthony Hopkins in demeanour. So there's that. I also utilize music and ambience.

But thats generally not what I go for. Most of my games are patterned closely on Hellboy/BPRD comics, so pulpy investigators in a Cthulhu-ish world. There's some WTF horror, but it tends to be good natured fun more than anything. I try to stop just short of campy, but its a line Ive crossed many times.

And honestly for me weaving the mystery holds more appeal than the scares. I like introducing players to bizarre, frelled-up situations and seeing what they do, how their minds work, what conclusions they leap to. One of my players is a cop and its always amusing to me how different his choices are to another player, who regularly GM's D&D.

As for the Cthulhu mythos...I tend to take them as inspiration, but go my own way. I've never actually used Cthulhu in a game. I like investigating folklore and mythology and creating my own additions in the vein of Mythos creatures, but not directly taking from Lovecraft. Ran a long campaign that focused around a cult of Moloch.

It's been said before but it's true: props and atmosphere can get that extra out of players. Lights low, candles, turn down the room temp, any of a number of tricks to help immerse them into the game pays off.
Biological and psychological tricks are just another tool but worth investigaing and experimenting with.

Even if you don't 'scare' them, IMHO that's not possible, you can get a response to the mood and tone of game you are setting. The 'creepy factor'. I've had players respond to that in games with actual shivers before.

Quote from: Zevious Zoquis;833623Oh yeah of course, but I think with a book or movie- if it's good - I can get really engrossed and forget its a movie or book.  I don't find that an easy state to achieve with an rpg.  There's a lot more going on that interferes with that happening.  I suppose its not impossible, but it would take a pretty exceptional GM I think.

In my experience that falls more on the players than it does on the GM. If nothing else because there are usually more of them and all it takes is one person who isn't willing or able to let themselves feel scared and ends up wisecracking through everything to prevent the game from being scary for anyone.  Everyone has to cooperate for a game to be scary for anyone.

That said, the GM needs to go to some extra effort to make things scary or horrific. The CoC game we played in the dark with hurricane lamps and mini  flashlights to see by, with a weird and creepy sound track running in the back ground, and with lots of rooms to separate players from each other was probably the scariest CoC game we've played.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;833567I find that "WTF Scary!" loses its punch if you are doing it all the time. So I tend to lean more on campy and occasionally throw the players a scary adventure or two.

Pretty much this too. It's too much effort to do scary every session. And we all love the Blood Brother 2 (http://www.amazon.com/Call-Cthulhu-Non-Mythos-Brothers-Chaosium/dp/0933635915) standalone adventures way to much to nix camp altogether. And most of the BB2 scenarios are way campy horror movie genre pastiches. For example, El Tigre, y la Primade de Destruccion where Mexican masked wrestlers fight female Nazi storm troopers and rubber suit aliens. Now we played this back in the 1990s before Luchadores hit mainstream America so Mexican wrestling movies were a totally foreign genre to us so it may have been the actual Luchadore masks that we had on display or maybe the stars were just right, but that scenario is hands down one of the most memorable game sessions we've played. And it was not at all scary.

Quote from: Bren;833650In my experience that falls more on the players than it does on the GM. If nothing else because there are usually more of them and all it takes is one person who isn't willing or able to let themselves feel scared and ends up wisecracking through everything to prevent the game from being scary for anyone.  Everyone has to cooperate for a game to be scary for anyone.

That said, the GM needs to go to some extra effort to make things scary or horrific. The CoC game we played in the dark with hurricane lamps and mini  flashlights to see by, with a weird and creepy sound track running in the back ground, and with lots of rooms to separate players from each other was probably the scariest CoC game we've played.

Yes, I actually popped by just now to add a bit to my previous post to the effect that along with a great GM, it would help to have a small player group (maybe even only one player) to minimize the distractions.

I've always had the notion in my mind to run a game of CoC with all the creepy "bells & whistles" so to speak.  Audio soundtrack, visual aids, atmospheric effects, etc etc.  I could definitely see how it could be at least a very unsettling experience.  I mean even just sitting around in a dark room telling ghost stories at night can be very creepy...

In the last two years (well almost three now) I've GMed (and I'm still GMing) a Laundry (http://www.cubicle7.co.uk/our-games/the-laundry/) campaign.

I think it is the first time I managed to get real/scary/disturbing horror while players are cracking jokes. The Laundry adventures manage to have a perfect blend of horror and humor.

It is a difficult mix to obtain but the books really give you the keys to get it at your table. The "silly" parts of the "Laundryverse" let players make joke and release tension (as they always do) but in the process they get even more disturbed by the darkest side of the setting (and the more you play, the darker things get).

I don't aim to horror-scare my players, ever. I just don't consider it a pleasant part of gaming and would even consider genuinely scaring a player a mistake in my DMing.

While I don't have any such reservations about campiness, it is, most of the time not what I intend when I use horror elements.

What I tend to go for is what I would call "freaky". Horror elements that make the players on a rational level go "Yeah, this is fucked up and I would probably be scared shitless actual coming across this stuff", but that doesn't affect them much on a emotional level.

For example, when I use gnolls, I often put in some extra effort to make clear that, yes, these are horrible evil creatures. I would consider these efforts horror elements, but I don't employ them to scare and I wouldn't want them to be to campy either.

Neither. We play Werewolf: the Forsaken 2nd edition, and it's pretty straight, so not campy at all. But I don't find anything scary either, maybe occasionally creepy, but not scary. Can't say I've ever been scared in an RPG, I know it's not real and I don't suspend disbelief with purely conceptual things in the same way as with films, for example.

There are only 2 things that ever scare my players.

1. Level Drain

2. Lightsabers



Generally horrific situations quickly begin to resemble the movie "Army of Darkness".

Quote from: jedimastert;833695There are only 2 things that ever scare my players.

1. Level Drain

2. Lightsabers



Generally horrific situations quickly begin to resemble the movie "Army of Darkness".

This mirrors my own experience.

Although I've pulled off "scary" a couple of times. Ironically, it wasn't meant to be scary. It was just a scenario in Cyberpunk 2020 where the players had managed to survive a really long time in a year-long campaign, culminating in big fight in Copernicus Crater, and I had all the details for survival in space turned up to 11. They were terrified of dying - stray bullets, radiation, etc. Then the Aliens showed up... good times.

I find it hard to scare my players. If I'm running a horror game, they expect horrific stuff to happen. No impact.

That being said, I don't run horror games. I run hard (ish) SF games, so when something horrific happens, it freaks them right the fuck out, and chaos ensues. I go for the scary, and I do it by completely blindsiding the players with it. Now, I've had a few games go completely sideways as a result, with totally batshit panicked PC's making some very bad decisions, but these things happen.

Quote from: tenbones;833703This mirrors my own experience.

In Glorantha, Chaos, especially Broo, is a lot more scary than lightsabers and at least as scary as level drain in level-based games. From the perspective of most PCs Chaos-taint is a fate worse than death. And being capture by Broo is even worse. It's a "let's not even go there" kind of worse.

Go for scary. It will be campy anyway, but might have a little scary in it.

Quote from: tenbones;833539Haven't any of you had "those players" that are wisecracking through everything?

This is my best friend...and he loves horror games and he's a great gamer, so we agree he plays the gallows humor PC and I go for "freaky dangerous camp", ala Scream where the players are afraid for their PCs life, but the mood is more campy.

But yeah, serious horror games require him to be elsewhere.

I can still get in some "Oh fuck" from him sometimes that at least creates 10 seconds of creepy/scary at the table for the other players. Also, as my best friend, I know his triggers and I bounce on them like a sadistic maniac.

...and by just writing that sentence, somewhere a SJW just crapped themselves in an assplosion of tears, fecal corn bits and pain.

Quote from: Bren;833650Everyone has to cooperate for a game to be scary for anyone.

Absolutely. Buy-in from everyone is essential.

Quote from: tenbones;833422For those of you that run Horror games, or games with elements of Horror in them. Do you go for WTF scary? Or campy horror? How do your games hold up under the dark clouds of super-scary games?

Really kind of depends on the game.

Just to be contrary, I throw out a third way.  For Witch Hunter and Solomon Kane, I lean towards pulpy horror.  That is, I like to exploit the creep factor and the macabre, but nothing so mind numbingly horrifying that the players feel the need to run for their lives (unless they are just obviously outclassed).  This seems appropriate to the setting – the heroes are there to FIGHT these nightmarish creatures.  Now, if someone has a pet phobia (like, say, spiders or, looking at myself, flying things that sting), I'll play that to the hilt.  But otherwise, it's not the kind of stuff that's going to keep you up at night.

Now, when I'm running KULT, its a completely different ballgame.  In that game, yes I go for the deeply unsettling WTF kill-the-baby-and-the-dog-too brand of horror.  Nothing is off limits.  And God help you if you tell me something is, because THAT'S what's coming for you. It is, after all, based on early Clive Barker splatterpunk (Hellraiser, Nightbreed, Great and Secret Show, etc.).  It's not about uber-cosmic horror that makes you feel alone and insignificant.  It's about mind twisting horror that makes you ask, "why is the knife in my hand?"  The old movie, Jacob's Ladder, is a big influence on how I run that game.  Did you see it?  What was it?  I'm not sure!  Why is it in bed with me?

There are...maybe 2 people in my current game group who I would feel comfortable running KULT for.

Tom

Quote from: tenbones;833422For those of you that run Horror games, or games with elements of Horror in them. Do you go for WTF scary? Or campy horror? How do your games hold up under the dark clouds of super-scary games?

Scary. Because that gives players more importance to the game and to their character.

Scary and unnerving. Campy horror gaming sounds boring as hell.

Horror has never really done it for me.

I like the gore and jumpiness of horror films, but none have ever scared me (Except for Eraserhead (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074486/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1)).

So, I treat horror games with extreme caution.

I played a zombie game recently, that was fun, with PCs being picked off one by one by zombies. Was it fun? Yes. Was I remotely scared? No.

I have played Call of Cthulhu a number of times, but was never actually scared or creeped out by it.

Were I to play Horror games, I'd play the campy ones, or ones with loads of gore, preferably both - campy with buckets of blood, like Fright Night.

Depends.  I've done both.

I usually don't run horror with the goal to run horror, but if I'm trying, I'm never going for campy. Sometimes, what I run creeps out my players and sometimes, what I play creeps out the GMs as well:). This usually happens when I draw on real world atrocities, though, so it happens more often when I'm GMing it, but as stated already, it's usually a by-product.
Interestingly enough, supernatural and high-tech horrors have a much lower success rate with my players. My theory goes that the supernatural helps them insulate themselves from it being real;).
Either way, if the horror becomes campy, I count that as me failing to set the mood.

The few things I've found out about horror:

1) If running a horror RPG like CoC, it won't be scary. The Players will know what's coming by the title of the game.

2) The most effective horror can be achieved when using a non-horror game. I got this with Traveller, because nobody expected to run in to a ghost ship which was actually haunted.

3) Even if the scary becomes campy, it is still fun if everybody enjoys themselves.

I can do either.  It depends on the type of game, and whether I really want the players to be scared.  If I do, generally the methods involve nothing that I do actively, but how I frame things, if that makes any sense.

Quote from: jeff37923;834531The few things I've found out about horror:

1) If running a horror RPG like CoC, it won't be scary. The Players will know what's coming by the title of the game.

If that's the case then no one ought to ever be scared by horror films or books... because they know those things are going to try to scare them. But people like me DO get scares from those things as well as RPGs aimed at overt horror.
It sounds like you feel it's necessary to 'trick' Players into being scared where I see it as a sort of contract that is best entered into willingly/knowingly.

Quote2) The most effective horror can be achieved when using a non-horror game. I got this with Traveller, because nobody expected to run in to a ghost ship which was actually haunted.

I get why that might work, but might it also upset some folks who see it as 'bait n' switch' and don't want ghosts in their 'hard scifi'? Still, it's one of the reasons that I'll toss mundane/non-Mythos situations into CoC campaigns... why I think the introductory adventure 'The Haunting' works well if you turn it into a Scooby Doo episode where it's just ordinary suburban cultists trying to scare folks away from the Corbett house... no dimensional shamblers or undead wizard.

Quote3) Even if the scary becomes campy, it is still fun if everybody enjoys themselves.

That second bit kind of renders whatever goes before it meaningless... 'Even if the game sucks...' or 'Even if the GM doesn't show up...'

Quote from: Simlasa;835275'The Haunting' works well if you turn it into a Scooby Doo episode where it's just ordinary suburban cultists trying to scare folks away from the Corbett house... no dimensional shamblers or undead wizard.

The Corbett house is one of two scenarios with the highest PC fatality rate. The other was whatever adventure featured the tunnel riddled Boucher estate.

Quote from: Bren;835278The Corbett house is one of two scenarios with the highest PC fatality rate. The other was whatever adventure featured the tunnel riddled Boucher estate.

I played in a one-shot of The Haunting recently and no one came close to madness or death... for which I lay the blame squarely at the feet of the Keeper. Up until the final confrontation with Corbett it really felt more like some old 'Abbot & Costello Meet X' movie because he pulled all his punches.

Quote from: Simlasa;835282I played in a one-shot of The Haunting recently and no one came close to madness or death... for which I lay the blame squarely at the feet of the Keeper. Up until the final confrontation with Corbett it really felt more like some old 'Abbot & Costello Meet X' movie because he pulled all his punches.

Punches...there are no punches...flying knives and furniture on the other hand...as it were... :D

Quote from: Bren;835310Punches...there are no punches...flying knives and furniture on the other hand...as it were... :D

Yeah, the dreaded knife went straight into a pocket and stayed there.

Quote from: Simlasa;835275If that's the case then no one ought to ever be scared by horror films or books... because they know those things are going to try to scare them. But people like me DO get scares from those things as well as RPGs aimed at overt horror.
It sounds like you feel it's necessary to 'trick' Players into being scared where I see it as a sort of contract that is best entered into willingly/knowingly.

I get why that might work, but might it also upset some folks who see it as 'bait n' switch' and don't want ghosts in their 'hard scifi'? Still, it's one of the reasons that I'll toss mundane/non-Mythos situations into CoC campaigns... why I think the introductory adventure 'The Haunting' works well if you turn it into a Scooby Doo episode where it's just ordinary suburban cultists trying to scare folks away from the Corbett house... no dimensional shamblers or undead wizard.

Obviously, our experiences differ. Thirty years ago when I started playing RPGs and the guys I gamed with didn't know who HP Lovecraft was or what kind of game Call of Cthulhu is, there wasn't much of a problem. Today, my Players have more access to information and are older, so they have already heard about Lovecraftian horror and know what to expect out of that game. So yes, I do have to trick them. I have to be more clever than their expectations and knowledge.

One way that I do this is by taking the lessons of horror from HP Lovecraft's writing and Call of Cthulhu, then applying those to an entirely different game system. Traveller's Ancients are beings capable of technological feats like making pocket universes. That level of technology and being alien makes them very much like what the Elder Gods of Lovecraftian Horror are and so I use them as stand-ins. I use infrasound  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrasound) creating devices in game to make the PCs have feelings of edginess and nervousness. Directed low power braided magnetic fields can affect PCs thinking and even induce insanity.

To top it all off, Traveller has psionics as canon. Why should not something be used if it is there?

Quote from: Simlasa;835275That second bit kind of renders whatever goes before it meaningless... 'Even if the game sucks...' or 'Even if the GM doesn't show up...'

I don't know about you, but I play RPGs to have fun. So it is pretty meaningful to me.

Quote from: jeff37923;835376Thirty years ago when I started playing RPGs and the guys I gamed with didn't know who HP Lovecraft was or what kind of game Call of Cthulhu is, there wasn't much of a problem. Today, my Players have more access to information and are older, so they have already heard about Lovecraftian horror and know what to expect out of that game.

So you're talking specifically about Lovecraft/CoC... which yeah, if you approach it in some overly formulaic way (like a lot of 'Lovecraftian' authors do) sure, it gets old fast... but that's about being obvious and doing the same old thing and there are great examples of how to break that mold without resorting to telling players you're going to run Toon just so you can get them off guard long enough to drop in a Deep One jump scare..

It certainly seems fine to me to work horror into other non-horror games... if you know your Players won't revolt.

QuoteTo top it all off, Traveller has psionics as canon. Why should not something be used if it is there?

Sure, but you were talking about ghosts and haunted spaceships... which I'd be fine with in Rogue Trader but in Traveller it would seem a bit jarring if I'd been led to believe we were playing straight Scifi... unless you had some scifi rationale for the spooks, which might risk deflating some of the atmosphere (depending on how it's presented).

QuoteI don't know about you, but I play RPGs to have fun. So it is pretty meaningful to me.

You misunderstood me... but whatever.

Quote from: Simlasa;835409So you're talking specifically about Lovecraft/CoC... which yeah, if you approach it in some overly formulaic way (like a lot of 'Lovecraftian' authors do) sure, it gets old fast... but that's about being obvious and doing the same old thing and there are great examples of how to break that mold without resorting to telling players you're going to run Toon just so you can get them off guard long enough to drop in a Deep One jump scare...

Look fucko, it isn't about approaching the material in a formulaic fashion. It is the fact that the material has been around and known for so long that it has become a part of RPG common history that Players already know. They don't feel a sense of dread when they hear about Lovecraftian horror, the typical modern Player pulls out a plush Cthulhu toy or starts making jokes about "Collect Calls of Cthulhu".

Same thing with Vampires, Werewolves, and Zombie Apocalypses. The material has been done to death and most Players already know what to expect and play accordingly.

What was once scary is now more campy.

Quote from: jeff37923;835418What was once scary is now more campy.

WoD was always campy.

Quote from: jeff37923;835418What was once scary is now more campy.

Only if you keep on doing it the same old way... over and over.
The the idea of vampires and ghosts is old as dirt, yet we keep getting fresh takes on them... in movies/books that openly let on that they're about vampires/ghosts... and folks are still getting scared by them... so I'm just thinking you must have run dry on imagination/inspiration or something to think Lovecraftian content can't scare anymore. There's more to it than just name-dropping Cthulhu.

Quote from: Simlasa;835461Only if you keep on doing it the same old way... over and over.
The the idea of vampires and ghosts is old as dirt, yet we keep getting fresh takes on them... in movies/books that openly let on that they're about vampires/ghosts... and folks are still getting scared by them... so I'm just thinking you must have run dry on imagination/inspiration or something to think Lovecraftian content can't scare anymore. There's more to it than just name-dropping Cthulhu.

I guess you haven't been keeping up on current events, but the last "fresh take" on vampires made them sparkly - not scary.

It isn't a failure of imagination or inspiration when your Players expect horror gaming after they read the cover of the rulebook and is entitled Call of Cthulhu.

Quote from: jeff37923;835479I guess you haven't been keeping up on current events, but the last "fresh take" on vampires made them sparkly - not scary.

I recommend you seek out Penny Dreadful post haste.

Quote from: Zevious Zoquis;833623Oh yeah of course, but I think with a book or movie- if it's good - I can get really engrossed and forget its a movie or book.  I don't find that an easy state to achieve with an rpg.  There's a lot more going on that interferes with that happening.  I suppose its not impossible, but it would take a pretty exceptional GM I think.

IME, it requires both a good GM and a table full of good players. One dud player makes it functionally impossible.

Quote from: jedimastert;833695There are only 2 things that ever scare my players.

1. Level Drain

2. Lightsabers

Which raises an important: A lot of people think death and gore is the same thing as horror. It's not. Death is a cessation. Gore is decoration.

In order to experience horror, you have to fear losing something meaningful. Death is frightening in real life because it is the loss of everything; in a game, it's generally less significant (unless you've got a lot of investment in the character).

That's why level drain is legitimately frightening in old school games: You are going to lose something. And you are going to have to live with that loss.

I often find that I get more horrified reactions from my players when I threaten NPCs they care about for a similar reason: If they died, they'd get to role up a new character and continue to play. If the NPC dies, they (and their characters) are going to have to live with the consequences of that.

Quote from: jeff37923;835479I guess you haven't been keeping up on current events, but the last "fresh take" on vampires made them sparkly - not scary.

While you were watching that I was watching The Strain, A Girl Walks Home Alone At Night and Byzantium.

QuoteIt isn't a failure of imagination or inspiration when your Players expect horror gaming after they read the cover of the rulebook and is entitled Call of Cthulhu.

It's a failure if you can't come up with some interesting ways to play off of their expectations and subvert their familiarity. Nothing is guaranteed but as a Player I'd certainly appreciate the attempt.
Whole campaigns of CoC can be run without resorting to mentions of Cthulhu, Nyarlathotep and Deep Ones while remaining firmly in Lovecraftland.

It seems like your argument is that because the Players know the tropes you can't surprise them or do anything new... which would speak ill of D&D if it were true, "Oh, the players saw the rulebook, now they KNOW there are going to be dragons and dungeons in the game!!!"... but somehow I keep Playing in games of D&D that entertain and even scare me. Even though 'Dungeon' is right there in the title of the game a good GM/group can still put me on the edge of my seat while we explore one... and it can still exciting when a 'Dragon' shows up.

Quote from: Simlasa;835556It's a failure if you can't come up with some interesting ways to play off of their expectations and subvert their familiarity. Nothing is guaranteed but as a Player I'd certainly appreciate the attempt.
Whole campaigns of CoC can be run without resorting to mentions of Cthulhu, Nyarlathotep and Deep Ones while remaining firmly in Lovecraftland.

It seems like your argument is that because the Players know the tropes you can't surprise them or do anything new... which would speak ill of D&D if it were true, "Oh, the players saw the rulebook, now they KNOW there are going to be dragons and dungeons in the game!!!"... but somehow I keep Playing in games of D&D that entertain and even scare me. Even though 'Dungeon' is right there in the title of the game a good GM/group can still put me on the edge of my seat while we explore one... and it can still exciting when a 'Dragon' shows up.

:rolleyes:
 
Stop being stupid, will you?

The expectations of the Players will be dictated by what rules system is used.

I have said earlier that you can use the tropes of horror in other games being run and still surprise Players, but the game system chosen to be run does dictate a parameter of genre elements and style of play. The working envelope of Call of Cthulhu is best used for Lovecraftian horror, the working envelope of Mekton is best used for anime mecha action, the working envelope for d6 Star Wars is best used for role-playing in the Star Wars universe. This is known as choosing the right tools for the job, the game system chosen does dictate the working parameters of the game when played. Can I use Call of Cthulhu to run a campaign of The Untouchables or The X-Files or D&D? Yes, but I will have to ignore large portions of the rules and add some of my own. Can I use horror tropes in Traveller, yes - and it is actually easier since the system supports a wider field of gaming in the science fiction genre than a specialized one like Call of Cthulhu.

If I have a hammer in my hand, people will expect me to be pounding things with it, not use it to reprogram a computer. Weren't you bitching earlier in the thread about using Toon in order to fake out Players so that you could get in a Deep Ones jump scare?

I have a hang-up about science fiction gaming, from this conversation I would guess that your hang-up revolves around horror gaming. Am I correct?

Quote from: jeff37923;835600Stop being stupid, will you?

It seems to me you're the one being intentionally dense.

QuoteThe expectations of the Players will be dictated by what rules system is used.

Who said otherwise? My suggestion was to work with those expectations and re-mix them. No lies or cheats.

QuoteI have said earlier that you can use the tropes of horror in other games being run and still surprise Players, but the game system chosen to be run does dictate a parameter of genre elements and style of play.

I never disagreed with that. I questioned whether dropping 'ghosts' into Traveller might be outside the average Traveller player's expectations and meet with resistance if not approached with some caution.

QuoteThe working envelope of Call of Cthulhu is best used for Lovecraftian horror

I never said it wasn't... never suggested you shouldn't run Lovecraftian horror with it. I was just suggesting that 'Lovecraftian horror' encompasses a lot more than name-dropping some mythos entities and having shootouts with shoggoths. It's still viable material/themes for horror in the right hands.

QuoteCan I use Call of Cthulhu to run a campaign of The Untouchables or The X-Files or D&D? Yes, but I will have to ignore large portions of the rules and add some of my own.

Looking at Delta Green I don't think you'd have to change much of anything to run X-Files, but whatever. I doubt you'd have to change anything to run The Untouchables either. But yeah, you would be ignoring big chunks of the setting... not that that's a crime. I think CoC can work well if a campaign includes sessions that don't feature any Mythos at all... such as falling afoul of some ordinary gangsters and having to deal with that. That IS a trope in horror... that not all things that go bump in the night are ghosts.

QuoteCan I use horror tropes in Traveller, yes - and it is actually easier since the system supports a wider field of gaming in the science fiction genre than a specialized one like Call of Cthulhu

I agree that Traveller/scifi, at it's base assumptions is more open-ended... but I still expect you'd meet with resistance if you... without warning... pulled out some classic werewolves or undead sorcerors... or Cthulhu. I think just about any genre can support horror elements quite well... but like you said, people have expectations based on the rules and IME Traveller players have a low tolerance for supernatural elements appearing in their game... unless there was some agreement in group discussion. Just like I wouldn't drop magical ponies into a CoC game... well, unless they were strange non-euclidean ponies from another dimension...

QuoteWeren't you bitching earlier in the thread about using Toon in order to fake out Players so that you could get in a Deep Ones jump scare?

I was mocking your excuse that you couldn't scare Players if they knew it was a horror game... that seeing 'Call of Cthulhu' on the front of the book automatically gave too much away because they'd been there, done that.

QuoteI have a hang-up about science fiction gaming, from this conversation I would guess that your hang-up revolves around horror gaming. Am I correct?

My hang-up is just that I think your arguments on this matter are kind of lame, that's all.
I do tend to comment more on games I play and like vs. games I don't play or don't care about... maybe that's what you're noticing?

Quote from: Simlasa;835603My hang-up is just that I think your arguments on this matter are kind of lame, that's all.

Then why didn't you just say that?

It isn't like people don't have different experiences with gaming, you know?

Quote from: jeff37923;835627Then why didn't you just say that?

It isn't like people don't have different experiences with gaming, you know?

I didn't think we were discussing experiences so much as reasons why we thought a game could/couldn't be scary.
Not how a game 'should' be played... only how it 'could' be played.

I can't comment on what your experiences are... just the conclusions you seem to draw from them.

Having grown up running around the streets of Los Angeles, my WoD was very much like "Near Dark"... I mean it was kinda funny, a lot of the stuff they did in the later Sabbat books were exactly things my players figured out for themselves (group bloodbonds, which they used to protect themselves from elders), rules for the gang that later became rituals. Almost habitual use of Fire as both a symbol of their fearlessness as well as something that set them apart from the other leeches. Behind all that was this everpresent feeling of lost humanity.

I certainly wouldn't use "Twilight" in the same breath as any kind of example of "modern Vampire" myth. It's not campy. Its like live-action teenage anime at best that just uses the imagery of vampires.

I thought Rice and Lumley were pretty stellar modern examples. But WoD has a lot of play-room on approaching horror... I think what the GM's bring to the table is the important part. My players LOATHE Cthulu. What's hilarious is I've been running them through Cthulu games for decades without ever using Cthulu or anything Cthulu-specific in terms of nomenclature and I know I've given them nightmares.